O.J.: Made In America - Part 5

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Conclusion of the five-part documentary. In the years following his murder acquittal, O.J. Simpson's life takes strange turns, culminating in a new arrest and, this time, a conviction. Directed by Ezra Edelman.

[KBrownie]

"It wasn't payback.  They messed up."

I love the one juror who pointed out that, at the end of the day, the prosecution was the one that messed up.  Not the jury.  There was reasonable doubt (a problematic term no doubt) ALL over this case, but the jury was made to be the scapegoat.  Marcia Clark especially has nothing but contempt for the jurors when she, Darden, and the rest (LAPD, forensic team, etc.) messed up all over the place, but few people like to acknowledge that.  Furhman, the glove, the forensic team handling evidence with their bare hands, putting a sheet over the body, taking OJ's blood that they drew when they first interviewed them TO THE CRIME SCENE  for some reason(I mean, really?!) to name a few.  Sure, some of those jurors may have had payback for Rodney King in mind, but it's not like the prosecution presented some airtight case.  The burden of proof was on the prosecution.  They seem to have taken it as a given that the jury would convict no matter what evidence was presented.  Sure, it looked obvious that OJ did it, but they still needed to prove it.  "Innocent until proven guilty" right?  Or does that not apply in certain cases/suspects?

 

The selective outrage over this jury acquitting Simpson by most in the larger, non-black American society is so hypocritical.  Where was the outrage from any groups other than the black community towards the jury for Rodney King? The judge in the Latasha Harlins case? Or any of the other countless white juries and judges in this country that freed/slapped on the wrist whites who had killed/assaulted blacks?  Or all the other times this may have happened when race wasn't a factor and both the victim and accused were the same race.  This wasn't new by any means.  It just happened to not work in favor of the African-American person this time.  And that's why some people were so pissed and still are.  This was a lot of white Americans' first times experiencing this type of betrayal by the system.  It usually works for them.  Not so much for the African-American community.  I hear all the time "didn't they care about Ron/Nicole and their families?" or "how could they do that to them?"  Does anyone really believe that mostly black jury didn't know exactly how they felt?  That they didn't know what it's like to feel that the justice system failed them? I don't think so.  The African-American community has felt that way for about six hundred years and counting.  That is why African-Americans cheered when he was acquitted.  It wasn't about OJ personally, and unfortunately it wasn't about Ron or Nicole either.  It was finally, for once, the system worked for the black man.  But let's not pretend that it was only blacks who weren't particularly concerned about the victims in this case.  For a lot of racists, this trial boiled down to a black man who had done the worst thing a black man could do and be with a white woman and he needed to pay for that.  Let's not forget the long and troubled history of black men and white women in American society.  I don't think people would have cared so much, no matter what they may believe about themselves and their own prejudices, if OJ had been on trial for killing his black ex-wife.  This case was really the perfect storm of so many different things.  It really is terrible that it stopped being about Nicole and Ron from almost the very moment it happened.  All in all, the jury had to work with what they were given.  The prosecution's job was to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that OJ did it.  And they failed.  OJ had the better team.  And like it or not, based on the laws of this country, he was entitled to a fair defense.

 

It will forever be unfortunate that this case, from the very beginning, stopped being about the two people who lost their lives, but to blame that jury and treat them as they were just stupid, didn't like or care about Nicole (as Marcia Clark so eloquently put it in Part 4), confused, or wanted payback is bullshit.  They followed the law as there was plenty of reasonable doubt for the acquittal.  And who was responsible for that?  There are a whole host of people who failed Nicole and Ron.  That jury being the least of them.  It happens.  Nicole and Tom weren't the first victims to have this happen in their cases and they certainly won't be the last.  

 

Did OJ probably do it?  I believe so.  Anyone who could do what happened to those two people with their own kids sleeping upstairs is evil and should rot in prison and then burn in hell.

Did the prosecution prove it?  Not really.  They were banking on it being obvious that it was OJ to do a lot of the work for them and hoping for the jury to not take seriously anything that suggested otherwise. 

[DangerousMinds]

Nothing seriously suggested otherwise IMO. 

[KBrownie]

1 minute ago, DangerousMinds said:

Nothing seriously suggested otherwise IMO. 

I disagree.  

I think there was plenty.  Between Furhman, the botched investigation, and numerous other missteps, there was plenty to suggest it wasn't him.  There was also plenty to suggest it was.  But the law says you need to prove someone's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and the prosecution didn't do that for this jury.  That's on them.

[Kidlaw]

What I'm left with after watching this documentary is the gall of people like Peter Hymas who actually find fault in an oppressed people who would find joy in seeing institutional racism and injustice hit the majority population in the face.  To actually say that Black people's reaction was "offensive" and that it was Black people who made things worse (i.e., "put a huge redline across society.")?  I would say I couldn't believe it, but really what I think is how can you have seen all that has happened throughout history, and LA's recent history at that time, and still have the audacity to find fault in the emotions of those who are the ones who have had to live through your oppression?  Are you really without any understanding or empathy?  Really?  Wow. 

I mean, the unmitigated gall.  After hundreds of years of majority injustice, white juries nullifying without impunity, shame, or condemnation, without the nation caring at all about this climate that it created -- and then you still see white people in this documentary basically boil it all down to, "Damn, these Black people.  I thought they would do better than that."

I mean...all I can do is laugh.  Hypocrisy at its finest. 

Edited June 17, 2016 by Kidlaw

[Court]

Did LAPD and the prosecution mess up? Absolutely. I place more blame on LAPD than the prosecution.

However, I think Judge Ito was overwhelmed and influenced by the celebrity and the media surrounding the case. I think he messed up as well. How does he allow them to stage the house? 

Some of the things the defense did crossed the line. The judge should have stopped it.

 

O.J. became black when it benefitted him. Everything he ever did was for his benefit.

There were jurors who were never going to find him guilty no matter what evidence was presented. 

[Court]

The jury did mess up as well. Not necessarily in the verdict but in not deliberating. (There is no doubt in my mind O.J. did it but there were lots of screwups along the way.)

Both jurors pretty much admitted that they just wanted to go home and that verdict was the quickest way to go home. I can understand that desire because being sequestered for so long has to be awful.

As I said in another thread, this was never about Nicole or Ron. It was about everything and anything else.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Court

[RemoteControlFreak]

On 6/16/2016 at 11:41 PM, KBrownie said:

Did the prosecution prove it?  Not really.  They were banking on it being obvious that it was OJ to do a lot of the work for them and hoping for the jury to not take seriously anything that suggested otherwise. 

They proved their case many times over.   The LAPD was certainly sloppy in their handling of the crime scene.  But this wasn't enough to introduce reasonable doubt.  The blood on the Bronco, in Simpson's house, and on his socks was really all they needed. Even if you throw out the evidence of OJ's hair at the crime scene because it might have come from the blanket.  And even if you throw out the drop of blood on the back gate at Bundy that was overlooked for weeks.

Edited June 19, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[KBrownie]

1 hour ago, RemoteControlFreak said:

They proved their case many times over.   The LAPD was certainly sloppy in their handling of the crime scene.  But this wasn't enough to introduce reasonable doubt.  The blood on the Bronco, in Simpson's house, and on his socks was really all they needed. Even if you through out the evidence of OJ's hair at the crime scene because it might have come from the blanket.  And even if you throw out the drop of blood on the back gate at Bundy that was overlooked for weeks.

To you they proved their case many times over. It's not some statement or fact that can be definitively proven true or not argued.  You think they did, I don't.  The jury didn't either.  There's plenty of support for either opinion.  But obviously for this jury, there was more than enough for reasonable doubt,  It has been mentioned before in either this thread or one of the other OJ threads that reasonable doubt and what it means exactly continues to be something that is debated, so saying something like "this wasn't enough to introduce reasonable doubt" as if it were not debatable is an error your part.  Had it been a different group of people, they may have come to a different conclusion.  Maybe not.  

Some people think the jury was just supposed to ignore all the evidence that cast doubt on it being Simpson because they feel that it was just so obvious it was him.  Any other suggestion be damned.  The younger juror that was interviewed, whether you agree with her or not, did a good job of articulating her position on acquittal.  She, and there must have been others, wasn't stupid or confused, or looking for payback.  It wasn't that they just didn't like Nicole because she was a white woman dating a black man and they wanted to punish her.  They just came to a different conclusion than you and many others.  It happens.  That's the way the system works.  The system says that you're not just supposed to decide a person is guilty first and prove it later or ignore any possibility that it might be someone else.  And most of the time the flawed system, that was fucked up from the beginning, is just fine for most Americans, the ones who it usually favors.  This time it didn't and there was outrage.  Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman aren't the only ones whose deaths never got the justice they deserved, so why such outrage for them specifically from people other than their friends and family?  There are much more recent tragic deaths, and plenty before the Simpson case, that the killers were set free or never even charged that America moved on from pretty quickly.  Is there a fear that this might happen to them or their loved ones?  Sure, but this happens every day and has been from the founding of this country and system.  So why them?  That's a question I don't think America will ever really want to confront and answer.  

[Kidlaw]

1 hour ago, KBrownie said:

Sure, but this happens every day and has been from the founding of this country and system.  So why them?  That's a question I don't think America will ever really want to confront and answer.  

That's been one of the lingering questions for the last 20+ years.  No one wants to answer it because it legitimizes many of the thoughts and feelings behind why this case resonated so much with Black America. 

You look at poor little Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin (just to name two).  People can't even be bothered at this very moment that the killers of those two boys walk free.  But, OJ?  OJ is the greatest injustice that has ever occurred! 

It's more than celebrity at play here.  It's more than wealth.  But, you have to have the right frame of mind to see it and many people simply don't.  Sadly, it is what it is. 

Edited June 18, 2016 by Kidlaw

[KBrownie]

34 minutes ago, Kidlaw said:

That's been one of the lingering questions for the last 20+ years.  No one wants to answer it because it legitimizes many of the thoughts and feelings behind why this case resonated so much with Black America. 

You look at poor little Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin (just to name two).  People can't even be bothered at this very moment that the killers of those two boys walk free.  But, OJ?  OJ is the greatest injustice that has ever occurred! 

It's more than celebrity at play here.  It's more than wealth.  But, you have to have the right frame of mind to see it and many people simply don't.  Sadly, it is what it is. 

Exactly. 

But no one really ever wants to talk about any of those things.  Kudos to the director for putting it all out there, but as seen with some of the people who were at ground zero for a lot of the injustice, people will continue to deny that anything is wrong.

[Tdoc72]

I did like juror Yolanda. She seemed smart and had well thought out responses. I think she took it seriously and made the best decision she could with the info she had. Now Carrie Bess I couldn't stand. She made it seem like this was biggest joke ever. 

I, almost 44yo suburban white woman, care about Tamir & Trayvon. They deserved justice and got none. Too many others also. 

[Willowsmom]

For Furhman to set Simpson up he would have had to know where Simpson was and that he had no alibi. How could he have possibly know that in the beginning? He couldn't. The cops went to Rockingham on a safety check because a famous person's ex had been murdered. Is Furhman rascist? maybe.

As for a stupid jury, sorry but interviews at the time with the jury made it very clear that some of them didn't even come close to understanding the science. And moreover they didn't care. The younger juror on the show made it very clear she didn't care if he was guilty, she wanted to go home. The older lady made it clear she did think him guilty but wasn't gonna put a Black man in jail. She only seemed upset that given the second chance Simpson continued to be a jackass disconnected from the Black community.

Someone said it in part 5 , if Simpson had murdered his first wife he'd have been convicted.

[wallflower75]

I was in college when the murders and the trial took place.  While I didn't take an avid interest in the proceedings, it was impossible to escape.  What I remember from that time was that it seemed to go on forever and ever, and then suddenly the jury had arrived at a verdict.  I listened to the verdict in my college apartment and heard a sudden explosion of cheering from the people in the room above mine when the verdict was read.  I was slightly numb but not surprised.  When I did pay attention to something going on with the trial, it seemed to be because something was going wrong for the prosecution's case--the Fuhrman tapes, or Scheck tearing apart the experts, or O.J. trying on the gloves that somehow didn't fit.  So yeah, I wasn't super surprised at the verdict.

I felt bad for Juror #2 when she said that this trial had had a negative impact on her life in terms of her relationships with friends and neighbors.  My sympathy is somewhat lessened, however, when I remember her answer to the question of why it only took 3 1/2 hours for the jury to reach a verdict without even bothering to go over the evidence.  Never having served on a jury, much less one that was sequestered for 267 days, I can't imagine what it was like--but if nothing else, you owe it to the victims to take a look over everything before rendering a verdict.  Not that I blame the jury entirely.  The verdict came as a result of a number of factors--problems with how the case was presented by the prosecution, a defense team which made the most of every opportunity, a judge who didn't reign the circus in as he should have, and of course, the credibility of Mark Fuhrman.  The jury was just the ultimate scapegoat because they made the final decision as to O.J.'s guilt or innocence in criminal court.

Edited June 19, 2016 by wallflower75

[DangerousMinds]

On June 17, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Kidlaw said:

That's been one of the lingering questions for the last 20+ years.  No one wants to answer it because it legitimizes many of the thoughts and feelings behind why this case resonated so much with Black America. 

You look at poor little Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin (just to name two).  People can't even be bothered at this very moment that the killers of those two boys walk free.  But, OJ?  OJ is the greatest injustice that has ever occurred! 

It's more than celebrity at play here.  It's more than wealth.  But, you have to have the right frame of mind to see it and many people simply don't.  Sadly, it is what it is. 

Many of us, and I'm white, continue to be VERY bothered about the killers of those boys walking around free. 

[RemoteControlFreak]

On 6/17/2016 at 1:42 PM, Kidlaw said:

What I'm left with after watching this documentary is the gall of people like Peter Hymas who actually find fault in an oppressed people who would find joy in seeing institutional racism and injustice hit the majority population in the face.  To actually say that Black people's reaction was "offensive" and that it was Black people who made things worse (i.e., "put a huge redline across society.")?  I would say I couldn't believe it, but really what I think is how can you have seen all that has happened throughout history, and LA's recent history at that time, and still have the audacity to find fault in the emotions of those who are the ones who have had to live through your oppression?  Are you really without any understanding or empathy?  Really?  Wow. 

I mean, the unmitigated gall.  After hundreds of years of majority injustice, white juries nullifying without impunity, shame, or condemnation, without the nation caring at all about this climate that it created -- and then you still see white people in this documentary basically boil it all down to, "Damn, these Black people.  I thought they would do better than that."

I mean...all I can do is laugh.  Hypocrisy at its finest. 

I feel the same way as Peter Hymas.  It's offensive to cheer when someone gets away with murder.

The minister (don't remember his name) equated OJ Simpson's acquittal with Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier in baseball.  And he said, "now you know how it feels."

It is hardly the same thing.  There were no victims in breaking the baseball color barrier. It was a victory for all humankind. 

Walter Mosley said in this episode that it was "indicative of progress" that OJ got off.

It's not progress. Most of us were taught in kindergarten that two wrongs don't make a right.  There is no cause for celebration or a proclamation of progress when the message was essentially, "You screwed us.  Now we screw you."

[stonehaven]

I still am shocked over the Rodney King verdict..and I am a white 45 year old woman...

This whole series was fascinating..as it really exposed OJ for what he was..a user and someone that thought nothing of other people...He used the whites to gain influence and fame..he used the blacks to get away with murder..he used his friends to convince others of his innocence...and he used the church for some weird redemptive path...

This documentary opened my eyes to so many things...injustice that festers can have devastating consequences...loyalty blinded by fame....and the horrific realization so many of his friends had over the years...

The sad fact that Fred Goldman never really moved forward in his life....the hate and rage Fred feels robbing him of anything of meaning in his life....Making OJ miserable is NOT a path to justice or happiness...the beginning of the news media that is now infotainment in all it's ugly glory...and the sensationalization of news...and how 20 years later, cops still are not trusted and are even MORE an occupying force in cities...

...and the sadness of seeing a great talent like OJ go to such waste..because of his selfishness which exposed him to be an empty shell of a man....and it cost two people their lives....

I hope this wins a slew of Emmys....

[wanderingstar]

Seeing people cheer for O.J.'s acquittal as if it was progress for blacks vis-a-vis the American justice system just makes my fucking head explode. That acquittal is the damn definition of a hollow victory.

All of O.J.'s hangers-on make my damn skin crawl. 

I didn't realize what a shambolic spectacle the memorabilia robbery was. I know I shouldn't have, but I laughed as the participants were describing how the robbery went down. I mean, what the actual fuck? I guess that's the power of fame.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[Primetimer]

The subject of a man who once was king -- and of us, his former subjects.

View the full article

[bosawks]

I'll never forget the reaction of my coworker when the verdict came in.  "A rich and famous man who got away with beating his not rich and not famous wife, also got away with killing her.  Why is everyone so damned surprised?"

[attica]

First of all, Simpson's Florida and Vegas crew(s) would have been right at home in an Elmore Leonard novel. Such a collection! I kept waiting for Dewey Crowe to show up. McClinton was a particular delight in his haste to flip, which may have been the first sensible thing he'd done.

Second of all, I felt sorry for the poor horses freaking out at the crowd reaction at the verdict. And no kidding, that's a kick in some bystander's head just waiting to happen.

Douglas's reaction to the Vegas crime was funny: Dude, you ruined all my beautiful work! 

[biakbiak]

16 minutes ago, bosawks said:

I'll never forget the reaction of my coworker when the verdict came in.  "A rich and famous man who got away with beating his not rich and not famous wife, also got away with killing her.  Why is everyone so damned surprised?"

Yeah I still remember a young man cheering outside the courthouse and was asked why he was cheering and he replied "it's the first time a black man got a white man's justice, he paid through the teeth and got away with murder." 

I think that sp much of the coverage was focused away from Nicole and Ron as people who were viciously murdered that even if they thought he was guilty they still cheered.

[Bama]

My favorite thing from this episode?

Quote

"They gave their life up for the code. But I wasn't going to jail for no OJ Simpson. Excuse my expression but fuck him" 
- Michael McClinton

Perfect and to the point.

[AuntiePam]

I'm a 71-year-old white woman, and can totally understand why the jury reached that verdict.  If any of them were predisposed to a Not Guilty verdict, then Fuhrman's perjury,  the forensics confusion, and the glove that didn't fit gave them what they needed to let O.J. go free, in good conscience. 

Also, in the back of their minds -- convicting O.J. wouldn't bring Nicole and Ron back to life.  Could there have been a little bit of that kind of thinking?  What does it hurt if one black man goes free when so many thousands have been unjustly convicted, lynched, killed without benefit of a trial.  I was shaken, almost in tears, watching the cheering crowds.  This was the result of years of racism, lynchings, mistreatment  in America -- the cheering was sad but SO understandable.  Finally, a victory of sorts for the other side.   And then to think that it's been twenty years, and it's still happening!  What's it going to take to end the injustice of racism in this country? 

Of course O.J. did it.  He had the means, motive, and opportunity, and the evidence proved it.  It's just too bad that Fuhrman was the one who found the glove.  The only question I'm left with is would the verdict had been different without Fuhrman, and the glove that didn't fit. 

[riffraff]

It honestly kills me when they say the jurors deliberated for 3 hours. That's all Nicole's 35 years were??? Her head was almost completely cut off. That's brutal hate. I realize there is a huge racial divide when it comes to black vs whites. For example all the officers got off in the Rodney King case and that is still happening today. But Nicole and Ron deserve more than 3 hours of deliberation. All lives matter. I don't understand the hate for a different color skin or sexual preferance. The same red blood flows through each of us. There should be equal justice for all. But it is lacking desperately when it comes to the color of our skin.  It makes me bitter towards people. Who is anyone to judge?? 

Edited June 19, 2016 by riffraff

[LAgator77]

I can tell you from personal experience that the public's reaction to OJ had not healed by 1999. I went to Westwood one night to catch a showing of Dogma with a friend of mine. We were meeting at an older theater at the corner of Gayley and Lindbrook that no longer exists. You buy your tickets then wait outside the theater on the sidewalk till the current showing ends. So I was waiting on the sidewalk with a bunch of college kids/young adults when up walks OJ and his son Justin. The crowd went completely silent... You could have heard a pin drop. Everyone just stared at him like a freak show. He bought his tickets and walked to the end of the line. No one said a word to him, no one would stand near him. Which I guess was an improvement over having random strangers just scream "MURDERER!" at him. It was weird nonetheless, I was uncomfortable, he sat about 3 rows behind me in the theater. 

[Negritude]

Attorney: "This is not a happy day for anyone." Cut to Fred Goldman "We're thrilled..." Ha!

Editors: 1

OJ: 0

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, attica said:

Douglas's reaction to the Vegas crime was funny: Dude, you ruined all my beautiful work! 

I loved his 5th quarter analogy.  But for me the only thing that bothered me... was that the judicial system was used to get payback in Nevada. No way a first time offender should have gotten 33 years and it bothers me that clearly everyone was "gonna" get OJ. From the prosecutors that overcharged (kidnapping) to the Judge who coldly threw the book at him. It isn't about OJ... it is about any of us. That legal personnel can pre-decide that someone is a bad person and give that kind of sentence to a person because "they don't like you" should be chilling and terrifying to anyone -- deserved payback for OJ or not. Because one day, they could do that to you.  The legal system should never be used that way and shame on all involved who put their personal feelings over fair and equal justice for OJ or anyone.

.

[Patrizio]

What's the problem with OJ getting 33 years? Did he not have access to the appeal process? Just because you might not think it a crime, the law does. As for Fred Goldman, his son is viciously murdered, pretty much forgotten in the blinding light of this celebrity driven trial- and he's suppose to get over it? I don't know about you, but if I were in his shoes, what happened to this kid would be the first and last thing I'd think of each day. Yes, there are a lot of innocent people that have suffered at the hands of law enforcement, and nowadays the police are no longer blindly believed as .they once were, but, OJ had nothing to do with that evolution, He was a rich man who bought his way out, the handling of the evidence was shoddy, and the prosecution was vastly out lawyered. I think the use of jury consultants by the defense won this case from the get go as well-was surprised it was so briefly touched on. I thought this was a well done documentary, my only complaint is the score was very close to Spike Lee's, " When the Levees Broke".

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, Patrizio said:

What's the problem with OJ getting 33 years? Did he not have access to the appeal process? Just because you might not think it a crime, the law does.

If you can show me that the vast majority of people in a similar situation to OJ (first time offender) would have gotten 33  years... sure, but I bet most people get about 10 years. Appeals go after mistakes of law, trial courts are given wide discretion that they are supposed to use well -- why they get it.  But most appeals courts will not touch it no matter how crazy. The truth is, EVERYONE up the latter is making decisions on this case out of revenge. That is not how it is supposed to be because someday, that could happen to you or, a real innocent. Heck isn't that what caused black people to get the raw end of the stick? Ignoring the law in favor of some preconceived notion?  Our legal system is not beholdant to the victim. Nor should it be. It is a consideration but not the ultimate factor. He got his civil justice.

When people stop making decisions on the law and start on their personal views and vengeance we have a kangaroo court that can turn on anyone in an instant. Even you or Fred Goldman.  The esteemed elected judge in this case now has tv show. Classy. Got to say Ito made mistakes but he sure didn't quit 3 years later and become Judge Judy.

[wallflower75]

2 hours ago, Patrizio said:

 I thought this was a well done documentary, my only complaint is the score was very close to Spike Lee's, " When the Levees Broke".

Oh, thank goodness I wasn't the only one who thought this.  I even checked the credits to see if Terence Blanchard had done the score because it sounded so similar.

[RemoteControlFreak]

4 hours ago, BooBear said:

No way a first time offender should have gotten 33 years and it bothers me that clearly everyone was "gonna" get OJ. From the prosecutors that overcharged (kidnapping) to the Judge who coldly threw the book at him. It isn't about OJ... it is about any of us. That legal personnel can pre-decide that someone is a bad person and give that kind of sentence to a person because "they don't like you" should be chilling and terrifying to anyone -- deserved payback for OJ or not. Because one day, they could do that to you.  The legal system should never be used that way and shame on all involved who put their personal feelings over fair and equal justice for OJ or anyone..

Maybe. But according to OJ Simpson's lawyer, he had a chance to plea bargain the sentence down to 2-3 years, but Simpson countered with 1 year and that wasn't accepted.  Simpson denies that his lawyer told him about any plea options.  Given OJ Simpson's history as a skilled and prolific liar, I believe the lawyer. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, BooBear said:

But for me the only thing that bothered me... was that the judicial system was used to get payback in Nevada. No way a first time offender should have gotten 33 years and it bothers me that clearly everyone was "gonna" get OJ. From the prosecutors that overcharged (kidnapping) to the Judge who coldly threw the book at him. It isn't about OJ... it is about any of us.

Agreed. He was overcharged and over sentenced. OJ was never found guilty in any court of law before and was, at least in the eyes of the law, a first-time offender and should be treated as such whether his name was OJ Simpson or Bob Johnson. That jury was out for payback -- so, ironically enough, was his murder jury. Does that shit even out? Hardly. But if we keep playing the "eye for an eye" game, everyone will soon be blind.

And holy hell -- those memorabilia guys a ragtag bunch of scammers. I actually didn't understand why Mike Gilbert was in charge of OJ's stuff that he secreted away from the Goldman family. Why the hell didn't OJ just have that stuff trucked to a warehouse in Florida, and you know, pay the bill so no one could cart it off a la Storage Wars. I can imagine OJ gave him some stuff - but his Heisman? No way.

I hope this wins a slew of Emmys....

No Emmys for this one. The film opened theatrically in two theaters - one in New York City, the other Los Angeles - for one week (a week prior to its premier on ABC) in order for it to qualify for a nomination for the Academy Awards. I hope it wins, it really was that good.

[jaync]

Just give this series all the awards, already. Phenomenal television.

All that time spent playing golf, and O.J. still had a shitty swing.

The contrast between O.J.'s and A.C.'s reactions during the civil trial was striking.

I've always found Jason's demeanor during the time of the murders and trial interesting - from the way he angrily approached the Bronco after it pulled into Rockingham, to the hiding of his face when the verdict was read. And, as shown in this episode, he was the only one not smiling in the family picture taken the day his father came home. Jason supposedly was close to Nicole, so I imagine he - like Shipp and A.C., who were also very fond of Nicole - just found the whole ordeal sad and heartbreaking.

I wouldn't want to be Mike Gilbert when O.J. (likely) is released next year.

With all that charm, talent and ego...seriously, O.J. could've been president if he wasn't wired to be a narcissistic, murdering motherfucker.

Edited June 19, 2016 by jaync

[Midnight Cheese]

This was such a rough episode - few people covered themselves in okayness, let alone glory.  Good grief the Florida and Vegas guys -- what a seedy, sad, pathetic capper to a terrible, tragic bunch of events. 

[nowandlater]

 Random question: They screened this in theaters in May to make it eligible for Oscar consideration. Does that make it ineligible for Emmy consideration? I mean, many Oscar-worthy movie documentaries are screened on TV, anyway, and they aren't considered for Emmy nominations. But does this officially being a (very long) theatrical movie make it not officially a TV series?

EDITED TO ADD: I found the answer. Yes, it's eligible for Emmy and Oscar consideration under a specific TV Academy rule.

Edited June 19, 2016 by nowandlater

[Kidlaw]

15 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

I'm a 71-year-old white woman, and can totally understand why the jury reached that verdict.  If any of them were predisposed to a Not Guilty verdict, then Fuhrman's perjury,  the forensics confusion, and the glove that didn't fit gave them what they needed to let O.J. go free, in good conscience. 

Also, in the back of their minds -- convicting O.J. wouldn't bring Nicole and Ron back to life.  Could there have been a little bit of that kind of thinking?  What does it hurt if one black man goes free when so many thousands have been unjustly convicted, lynched, killed without benefit of a trial.  I was shaken, almost in tears, watching the cheering crowds.  This was the result of years of racism, lynchings, mistreatment  in America -- the cheering was sad but SO understandable.  Finally, a victory of sorts for the other side.   And then to think that it's been twenty years, and it's still happening!  What's it going to take to end the injustice of racism in this country? 

Of course O.J. did it.  He had the means, motive, and opportunity, and the evidence proved it.  It's just too bad that Fuhrman was the one who found the glove.  The only question I'm left with is would the verdict had been different without Fuhrman, and the glove that didn't fit. 

I have to agree with everything you've written here. Above all else, I do not understand Peter Hymas expecting Black people to be anything other than human beings. If the American majority legalizes keeping a group of people downtrodden and oppressed, then the only natural reaction is that those people will emerge seeing the system as "us vs. them." If Hymas has an issue with that then he should work within his community to make a change. 

I too believe some people may have felt that Ron and Nicole are gone and there's nothing that can bring them back. Just like there's no bringing back Latasha Harlins, Emmett Till, and the millions of other Black Americans lynched, murdered, or who died enslaved. "If the killers of Black people can walk, why can't OJ? Why should a Black man be exempt from the American justice system for privileged people?" I definitely think that was the larger sentiment for many folks. 

For me personally, I never heard anyone talk about progress. Just that the OJ verdict seemed fair considering this is how the US operates when others kill Black people.  No one I know thought the OJ verdict represented some sort of progress for race relations or for Black people, specifically. Progress for race relations wasn't on anyone's minds because many people have sadly come to the conclusion that there is no further progress that can be made. 

I also question whether OJ would've walked if Furman wasn't a witness and the DNA collection wasn't so abysmal. I think it would've been a hung jury and, depending on the double jeopardy rules, maybe California could've retried him. Maybe. I really don't think he would've been found not guilty if the LAPD wasn't so incompetent and full of racists (and maybe if Chris Darden wasn't put on the case -- sorry, not sorry, but he wasn't ready for prime time).

In any case, I really applaud this documentary for presenting how justice really works in the US and how this trial was more than just OJ. It truly was a spotlight on the nation as a whole and I think they explored it really well. They didn't shy away from how racism has harmed the people so easily condemned by others when it comes to the OJ verdict. I really appreciated that aspect of this series.

[GreatKazu]

On 6/17/2016 at 5:44 PM, Kidlaw said:

That's been one of the lingering questions for the last 20+ years.  No one wants to answer it because it legitimizes many of the thoughts and feelings behind why this case resonated so much with Black America. 

You look at poor little Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin (just to name two).  People can't even be bothered at this very moment that the killers of those two boys walk free.  But, OJ?  OJ is the greatest injustice that has ever occurred! 

It's more than celebrity at play here.  It's more than wealth.  But, you have to have the right frame of mind to see it and many people simply don't.  Sadly, it is what it is. 

I  am horrified and disgusted at anyone who gets away with murder. As for the two you mentioned, my heart still aches at the injustice and my blood still boils knowing those killers are free. Many people continue to be outraged at the injustice, not just African-Americans.

IMO the difference between the killers of Tamir and Trayvon and the killer of Nicole and Ron is, Simpson the murderer (yes, I believe he is guilty) continued to be in the media whether it was due to the media going after him or Simpson putting himself out there. Simpson was sued in civil court which put him in the forefront of the public again because of the media following the case.  Simpson "wrote" a book. That meant more publicity. He had a reality-type show that was eventually canned. He was a well-known figure before he killed Ron and Nicole. Trayvon's killer was a nobody. His  killer has popped up now and then in the news for his criminal behavior and his so-called art work. I get a sense of rage from the public when his actions bring him to the forefront. Simpson has an inflated ego. That ego was caressed by the public. He was not going to let that go. I am reminded of the rage towards Casey Anthony after she got away with murder. That killer went into hiding. The rage still exists, but there is no attention made about it because she is not walking around in the public eye seeking attention.

Edited June 19, 2016 by GreatKazu

[psychoticstate]

How insulting that the acquittal of a double murderer would be equated to Jackie Robinson, his career and his talent.  Acquitting O.J. Simpson of two murders he clearly committed is nothing like the racial bridge Jackie Robinson helped to build.

In other news, fuck you, Carrie Bess.  Up until now she's denied that the acquittal was payback.  It's about time she was honest.

[Kidlaw]

5 minutes ago, GreatKazu said:

IMO the difference between the killers of Tamir and Trayvon and the killer of Nicole and Ron is, Simpson the murderer (yes, I believe he is guilty) continued to be in the media whether it was due to the media going after him or Simpson putting himself out there. Simpson was sued in civil court which put him in the forefront of the public again because of the media following the case.  Simpson "wrote" a book. That meant more publicity. He had a reality-type show that was eventually canned. He was a well-known figure before he killed Ron and Nicole. Trayvon's killer was a nobody. His  killer has popped up now and then in the news for his criminal behavior and his so-called art work. I get a sense of rage from the public when his actions bring him to the forefront. Simpson has an inflated ego. That ego was caressed by the public. He was not going to let that go. I am reminded of the rage towards Casey Anthony after she got away with murder. That killer went into hiding. The rage still exists, but there is no attention made about it because she is not walking around in the public eye seeking attention.

Unfortunately, a great percentage of the public has openly stated that they support the killers of Trayvon, Tamir, Eric, and so on and so forth. They have even donated millions of dollars to the killers who have murdered these young men, given the killers jobs, etc. I question the amount of rage the "public" really feels when there's so much financial support for these murderers, but I digress.

In fact, about the only slightly "positive" note I can make about this OJ mess is that I never heard of any folks from the Black community at large donating money to OJ. He had to buy that legal team on his own dime. lol

[psychoticstate]

I just finished watching the entirety of Part 5.  The last documentary that affected me this much was the Paradise Lost trio based on the West Memphis Three.  This was really well done and I hope it is awarded come Oscar time.

While Simpson was given a harsh sentence, the judge was within her legal rights as to the sentence she handed down.  Was she affected by 1994?  Possibly.  I have to say that I'm amazed that justification can be found for his acquittal in 1995, by saying it's some sort of payback for the sad chapters of our country's racist history, but outrage over his Nevada sentencing, believing that the "white system" caught up with him.  Regardless of sentencing, the fact is that Simpson was guilty in the Nevada crimes and that was proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

I was surprised and disappointed by how many friends/acquaintances/even attorneys of Simpson's stated he was found innocent in the criminal trial.  He was not found innocent.  He was found not guilty, which is not the same thing.

[GreatKazu]

2 hours ago, Kidlaw said:

Unfortunately, a great percentage of the public has openly stated that they support the killers of Trayvon, Tamir, Eric, and so on and so forth. They have even donated millions of dollars to the killers who have murdered these young men, given the killers jobs, etc. I question the amount of rage the "public" really feels when there's so much financial support for these murderers, but I digress.

In fact, about the only slightly "positive" note I can make about this OJ mess is that I never heard of any folks from the Black community at large donating money to OJ. He had to buy that legal team on his own dime. lol

And a great percentage have openly stated their outrage at both of these murderers walkung free. Anytime Trayvon Martin's killer is in the news, the amount of people wishing death upon this bastard, is enormous.

I am appalled at the mention by one of Simpson's  former defense attorneys that he was given the sentence of 33 years as some sort of payback for the $33 million dollar judgment owed to the Goldmans. Not to mention his other ludicrous comments. Simpson was not forced to commit that robbery. Simpson put himself in the position that he is now. Simpson was held accountable for his crimes in that Las  hotel room. 

Simpson's co-conspirator had it right that Simpson would not do him any favors if he went to prison.

[Kidlaw]

1 hour ago, GreatKazu said:

And a great percentage have openly stated their outrage at both of these murderers walkung free. Anytime Trayvon Martin's killer is in the news, the amount of people wishing death upon this bastard, is enormous.

Sometimes, our immediate circle of friends and family can blind us to how the rest of the country actually views racial injustice and brutality. I think it's really great that you, and other White people here, care about the injustice of the most recent murders of Black children and adults by police officers and random neighborhood watch thugs. And I don't mean that faceitiously. It is a good thing; but, it's not right to assume most of the country feels the same way as you. Sadly, most people do not.

Studies from the Pew Research Center and others show most White Americans simply do not have the same viewpoint as most Black Americans when it comes the murder of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown to use two examples. 

In a Pew Research survey, 60% of white Americans stated race received too much attention with regard to the murder of Trayvon Martin. In an NBC/Marist poll, 52% of whites also stated they have a great deal of confidence that police officers in their community treat blacks and whites equally. Only 25% of white Americans think there's police brutality in their area.

In the Pew study, 63% of white Americans believed race received more attention than it deserved or had no response about race in regard to Michael Brown's shooting. 67% of white Americans believed the police response in Ferguson had been the right course of action or offered no response. 69% of white Americans have a great deal/fair amount of confidence in the shooting investigation of Michael Brown or have no opinion on the matter. 

I think when you see these sort of opinions self-reported by the majority population about Black murder victims, it is a fair question to ask when examining the OJ Simpson trial -- Why was there so much outrage by the majority about the murder of Ron and Nicole? Why do we not see the same level of outrage for Black victims whose murderers walk free?  What is the difference? From looking at the Pew Research study, it doesn't seem like celebrity and fame tells the whole tale.

If anyone is interested, here's a link to the Pew study I referenced -- http://www.people-press.org/2014/08/18/stark-racial-divisions-in-reactions-to-ferguson-police-shooting/

ETA: Some of the numbers above came from an NBC/Marist poll which you can read about here -- http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6302614.html

Edited June 20, 2016 by Kidlaw

[KBrownie]

42 minutes ago, Kidlaw said:

Sometimes, our immediate circle of friends and family can blind us to how the rest of the country actually views racial injustice and brutality. I think it's really great that you, and other White people here, care about the injustice of the most recent murders of Black children and adults by police officers and random neighborhood watch thugs. And I don't mean that faceitiously. It is a good thing; but, it's not right to assume most of the country feels the same way as you. Sadly, most people do not.

Studies from the Pew Research Center and others show most White Americans simply do not have the same viewpoint as most Black Americans when it comes the murder of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown to use two examples. 

In a Pew Research survey, 60% of white Americans stated race received too much attention with regard to the murder of Trayvon Martin. In an NBC/Marist poll, 52% of whites also stated they have a great deal of confidence that police officers in their community treat blacks and whites equally. Only 25% of white Americans think there's police brutality in their area.

In the Pew study, 63% of white Americans believed race received more attention than it deserved or had no response about race in regard to Michael Brown's shooting. 67% of white Americans believed the police response in Ferguson had been the right course of action or offered no response. 69% of white Americans have a great deal/fair amount of confidence in the shooting investigation of Michael Brown or have no opinion on the matter. 

I think when you see these sort of opinions self-reported by the majority population about Black murder victims, it is a fair question to ask when examining the OJ Simpson trial -- Why was there so much outrage by the majority about the murder of Ron and Nicole? Why do we not see the same level of outrage for Black victims whose murderers walk free?  What is the difference? From looking at the Pew Research study, it doesn't seem like celebrity and fame tells the whole tale.

If anyone is interested, here's a link to the Pew study I referenced -- http://www.people-press.org/2014/08/18/stark-racial-divisions-in-reactions-to-ferguson-police-shooting/

ETA: Some of the numbers above came from an NBC/Marist poll which you can read about here -- http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6302614.html

And those are just the more recent examples.

The history of injustice and failure of the system for the black community in America is crucial to even beginning to understand some of the reaction to the Simpson case.  On all sides.

Was the level of outrage that the majority of White America has for Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown the same for Emmett Till? The four little girls in Birmingham? Medgar Evers? The thousands of blacks lynched during Jim Crow? The unnamed millions of those killed during the horrors and atrocities of slavery?  The numerous other people who don't get any kind of justice across this country?  Of course not.  Especially when it comes to people of color who were deliberately left out of the system and denied any sort of justice for centuries.  To say otherwise would be an absolute lie.  White America for the most  part has been okay with the injustice in this country when the victims were black and the perpetrators were white.  Not all of course, but a pretty substantial majority.

Of course it's not just the celebrity and fame factors.  Those are just distractions from the heart of the issue that so many don't ever want to deal with.  And until we do, as a nation, nothing will ever really change.

[Willowsmom]

I'm sorry but I would have felt the same if Ron and Nicole had been Black. What so pissed me off was that OJ, like so many high school, college and pro athletes,was basically given acclaim and advantages  far beyond their actual accomplishments.  He was always gonna skate because he played football. I realize that has changed.

As a sorta white person I am incensed about most of the things you mentioned. Slavery, not so much because there is no one still around  who lived before the end. And because my grandmothers people were not even citizens until 1920 when she was 11. Or that my grandfathers people, after being so badly treated by the the  English came here to signs that read " no dogs or Irish".  My point is lots of groups had horrible things done to them.

I akso never understood understood  why the Black conmunity insisted on standing behind him. He fell into a pot of honey and did nothing to help his communitym in fact ran as fast as he could   the other way.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

First of all, Simpson's Florida and Vegas crew(s) would have been right at home in an Elmore Leonard novel.

This is an entirely apt comparison.

[GreatKazu]

13 minutes ago, Willowsmom said:

I'm sorry but I would have felt the same if Ron and Nicole had been Black. What so pissed me off was that OJ, like so many high school, college and pro athletes,was basically given acclaim and advantages  far beyond their actual accomplishments.  He was always gonna skate because he played football. I realize that has changed.

As a sorta white person I am incensed about most of the things you mentioned. Slavery, not so much because there is no one still around  who lived before the end. And because my grandmothers people were not even citizens until 1920 when she was 11. Or that my grandfathers people, after being so badly treated by the the  English came here to signs that read " no dogs or Irish".  My point is lots of groups had horrible things done to them.

I akso never understood understood  why the Black conmunity insisted on standing behind him. He fell into a pot of honey and did nothing to help his communitym in fact ran as fast as he could   the other way.

Agree. Regardless of race, I viewed Ron and Nicole as victims of a crime. When it came to light Simpson was going to be arrested, I felt sadness because I grew up watching Simpson as an athlete and an actor. I did not want to believe he had committed two murders. I even tried to tell myself there must be a good explanation for what happened. There wasn't. I came to loathe him and despise him as more details came out about the domestic violence that occurred in the marriage.

As a Hispanic, I can list the atrocities that have been and continue to be committed upon our group. I can list the atrocities against other groups such as Native Americans, and the recent atrocities being committed upon the LGBTgroup. Every group, including crimes upon females, can be listed and discussed at length. 

Simpson ran as fast as he could from his own race.

[rwgrab]

What a great documentary!  I was hooked from the beginning, and it never lost my attention.

I think it was interesting hear from the juror who said that "90%" of the jurors were looking for payback for the Rodney King verdict, including her.  I'm wondering how it advances anybody's cause to trade injustice for injustice, though.  Sure, it's possible for a jury member to have had reasonable doubt in the case, but we didn't hear that from the older juror they interviewed.  It just makes me think that they didn't take the judge's instructions about setting aside preconceptions in their deliberations.

And that's what I see as one of the central conflicts when people discuss the verdict.  For those who were elated, this was a victory beyond just this one case.  For those who were disappointed, it was because they didn't think the jury did what they were asked to do (decide this one case on its merits). 

What I loved about the documentary was that it kinda said that both of those conclusions could be right.

[Kidlaw]

2 hours ago, KBrownie said:

And those are just the more recent examples.

The history of injustice and failure of the system for the black community in America is crucial to even beginning to understand some of the reaction to the Simpson case.  On all sides.

Was the level of outrage that the majority of White America has for Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown the same for Emmett Till? The four little girls in Birmingham? Medgar Evers? The thousands of blacks lynched during Jim Crow? The unnamed millions of those killed during the horrors and atrocities of slavery?  The numerous other people who don't get any kind of justice across this country?  Of course not.  Especially when it comes to people of color who were deliberately left out of the system and denied any sort of justice for centuries.  To say otherwise would be an absolute lie.  White America for the most  part has been okay with the injustice in this country when the victims were black and the perpetrators were white.  Not all of course, but a pretty substantial majority.

Of course it's not just the celebrity and fame factors.  Those are just distractions from the heart of the issue that so many don't ever want to deal with.  And until we do, as a nation, nothing will ever really change.

Agree with all of this. And that's why I feel it is what it is. No one wants to face the bitter truth, so we as a nation will never really change. 

If there is ever to be another doc on OJ, I think it would be good to examine why this case resonated so much with White America. I feel like this doc did a good job explaining why many Black people felt the way that they did - and others have explored the Black American angle as well. Now, let's answer the question of the outrage from White America. 

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever see this exploration. As you had mentioned up thread, this is a concept that no one wants to touch, deal with, or contemplate. 

[KBrownie]

52 minutes ago, Kidlaw said:

Agree with all of this. And that's why I feel it is what it is. No one wants to face the bitter truth, so we as a nation will never really change. 

If there is ever to be another doc on OJ, I think it would be good to examine why this case resonated so much with White America. I feel like this doc did a good job explaining why many Black people felt the way that they did - and others have explored the Black American angle as well. Now, let's answer the question of the outrage from White America. 

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever see this exploration. As you had mentioned up thread, this is a concept that no one wants to touch, deal with, or contemplate. 

Nope.  

There will just continue to be more deflection.  For example, Carrie Bess as proof positive that it was payback, but completely ignore Juror #2 and how she came to her perfectly reasonable conclusion for acquittal.  Bess's 90% of the jury felt the same as her comment taken as gospel and as reason to condemn the entire group, but everything else out of her mouth largely taken as bullshit.  Cochran, Sheck, et. al are evil, immoral, liars as if the prosecution presented a slam-dunk case.  Darden insulting the jury w/ his n-word BS, Clark not vetting Furhman and thinking he was a good guy, and all their other missteps.  But nope.  NO reasonable doubt in this case at all, just payback.  "OJ didn't care about the black community, so why do they care about him!" is another one.  So what.  He may have not seen himself as black, but the black community knew what he was even if he didn't.  They knew and continue to know that "transcending race" is bullshit.  It wasn't about him individually.  Most blacks at the time, although many were lousy at articulating it, weren't cheering because OJ Simpson the man was acquitted, they were cheering that a black man accused of killing two white people, a crime which historically meant certain death no matter if the person actually did it or not, beat the case.  There's no escaping the historical context.  Two wrongs don't make a right is another popular deflection, except for the over sentencing in the Nevada case.  That's okay for most people.  It's mostly unbelievable to think that anyone would have cared as much or still be so outraged 20+ years later if OJ had gotten away with killing his black wife and black acquaintance. It would have been news for a little while back in 1994 because of the celebrity, but no way would it still be a thing.  No way.

I believe he did it.  It's absolutely wrong that he was never punished for that crime, but he was acquitted fair and square.  I just wish people would be consistent in their outrage so maybe the system could start to actually work for everyone or at least own up to why this case is different.   Own up to the fact that no, most people don't get this outraged and upset at every murder where the killer gets off in this country.  Yeah there have been other high-profile cases, but none where it's 22 years and there's still such outrage and debate.  No matter how horrific and brutal and awful these deaths were, and they absolutely were, they weren't anything thousands of other victims and their families have had to endure.  At least people still care about them and their deaths.  A lot of other families don't even get that.  But I'm not going to change any minds and no one is going to change mine, so round and round we go.  Such is America.  Nothing ever gets done to make anything better.  Heads just get stuck in the sand or people deny what the real issue even is.  

OJ Simpson was a special case.  Everything fell perfectly into place for the system to work in his favor.  He had the money to hire the best lawyers to defend him.  He ended up with prosecutors who fumbled the ball over the place.  He had Furhman the racist liar lie about being a racist be the one to find the glove which cast doubt on his word, etc.  Investigators and a forensic team that opened the door for doubt.  The system as designed worked.

Edited June 20, 2016 by KBrownie