S02.E11: Vengeance Is Mine

[Athena]

Quote

Claire and the Highlanders are sent north after the Jacobite leaders decide to halt their march on London.  A band of redcoats makes trouble for the Scots, leading to a most unexpected reunion for Claire.

Note: This is the Book Talk thread. It can contain spoilers from all the books. Unspoiled posters, please leave if you want to remain unspoiled.

[Clawdette]

That was one satisfying hour of television!  The pacing was spot on and everything moved quickly from scene to scene.  The timeline was somewhat addressed and moved forward in Claire's opening voice-over.  Diana's dialog is crisp and feisty and peppered with lots of quoteables.  

I liked the way the demise of the Duke was handled with Claire and Mary being presented the trophy instead of Munro's wife.  It fit the narrative much more smoothly in this condensed version.  We got to see a little of what the Scot and the Sassenach call "Claire's Community Theatre" as she gave herself up to the British to save Jamie and crew and I loved Jamie's reference to Claire's face giving away the fact she is lying.

Can't wait to view again!

[toolazy]

I love love love that Mary personally avenged her rape.  I also loved that they didn't kill Hugh Munro.  I'm also astounded by how much they managed to fit into an hour of television.  I think that there were some things I wasn't crazy about but I'm so thrilled that they actually did behead the Duke (which was foreshadowed in the title card) that I can't remember anything negative.  Maybe after I watch it again. 

[ulkis]

I was kinda hoping Mary was gonna clunk the guy on the head when he was holding Claire. At least she got to knife him.

I've only skimmed the books so I didn't know it was Sandringham. What a piece of work. 

I'm so used to the show not translating Gaelic that when Jamie was talking to Claire I thought to myself, I wonder what Jamie's saying and then a second later, I realized, idiot, you're reading the subtitles as you wonder. :facepalm:

Edited June 19, 2016 by ulkis

[ulkis]

41 minutes ago, toolazy said:

I love love love that Mary personally avenged her rape.  I also loved that they didn't kill Hugh Munro.  I'm also astounded by how much they managed to fit into an hour of television.  I think that there were some things I wasn't crazy about but I'm so thrilled that they actually did behead the Duke (which was foreshadowed in the title card) that I can't remember anything negative.  Maybe after I watch it again. 

I thought it was the best episode so far since they've gotten back to Scotland. I didn't spot that DG wrote it. I guess it's not a coincidence then that it was one of the better episodes.

Jamie should have punched Charles in the face. That probably would have changed history somehow! He should have done it either way though, darn it.

[Dust Bunny]

Hugh Munro lives! And Rupert lives to wink another day! This season is turning out to be a surprising ride for book readers.

I loved Jamie’s prayer. It was a beautiful foreshadowing to his twenty years of praying “That she may be safe. She and the child.” And how he watched her sleep is like all the times he tries to intentionally store precious memories he knows he’ll need later. He’s already preparing himself to let her go. And I adored the “I can say things while you sleep. Your dreams will ken the truth of them.” Thank you, Diana, for all those beats. Thanks also for shirtless Jamie, “get into bed”, and the Jamie-Claire spooning we read about but don’t see enough. It’s the little things.

I loved seeing the rescue from Jamie’s point of view. That’s a small way of Diana showing that this is Jamie’s story as much as Claire’s story. Even just seeing him look through the window after giving her to the Red Coats was nice. I look forward to reading the script and seeing those small notes.

I was looking forward to seeing Jamie carry Claire to the Red Coats, but it makes a lot more sense he didn’t here. I’m sure the writers brought up the need to avoid him being recognized. It was good to see those pictures of Red Jamie. Wow – I just thought of it – does that look like the sketch of the highlander Frank saw in the pilot? If so, wouldn’t that be interesting if Frank were to compare it, while he’s researching Jamie? Random thought of the night.

It’s so great that Claire is 100% “our lass” to Dougal. Consequentially, the upcoming Dougal-Jamie showdown will be tough to watch.

This show does slow burns really well. Season 1 had the Sandringham-MacDonald duel over a debt, and this episode reveals Sandringham worked with the Comte to cover a debt. It consolidates two separate plots and smooths the edges a little.

I loved how the second Jamie stepped in the room, Sandringham put his wig on. Simon Callow brought so much to the roll. A delight to see him play such deviousness.

Mary had a lot more agency in this version. Even though I was absurdly looking forward to Red Jamie killing Danton on the staircase (I wanted the “I call her ‘wife’” line), I’m happy Mary took her own revenge. It was nice to see her have the gumption to seek out Hugh, as well. Agency is good.

Murtagh: “Does it ever occur to you that taking Claire to wife might not ha’ been the wisest thing you ever did?” Jamie: “No. It doesn’t.” Perfect.

On the other side of the spectrum... I had to actually pause the episode when Sandringham told Claire to “be grateful” that he was “simply having you raped”. Is Diana trolling us? I genuinely can’t tell.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[morgan]

I loved the prayer too!  Such a beautiful foreshadowing of the one he says after Culloden.  

What a great episode!  I really can't wait to watch again.  It flew by, with so much good about it.  Diana did a great job!  Really was wondering how they were going to wrap it up and when I realized the revenge played differently it really worked.  Loved the scene with Jamie and Murtagh trying to read Claire's Gaelic.  "She even spelled, 'help' wrong!"  Ha!  

Diana did a perfect job balancing small and large moments.  With obviously recognizable characters.  Nice to see the Dougal I know, and all the rest.  Jamie and Claire were spot on.  And I was fine with the voice and attempt to fix the timeline.  Beautiful watching them ride toward Inverness as well

So much to like!  Simon Callow chews the scenery and twirls his mustache a bit, but I think that is deliberate...the Duke is always playing a role.  So I'm good with it.

Have I mentioned I can't wait to watch again?

[Petunia846]

That was so gruesome. Heh. Between Rupert's eye and a bloody, chopped off head. Ewww.

So is Rupert going to survive Culloden? Or will he still die just somewhere else? If he lives and makes it into next season I'm going to be really sad for the actor who plays Angus. That doesn't seem fair. I like both of them (the characters and the actors) so much.

It bothered me a little that they did subtitles for the scene where Jamie is talking to Claire. Although, now that I think about it I think I understand why they did it. The standard has been on the show that if the characters understand what someone is saying then we get subtitles, so since we're usually in Claire's POV we usually don't get subtitles for Gaelic. I was thinking, since Claire doesn't know much Gaelic still (although, apparently she's learning) AND she's asleep, we should not have had those subtitles. But now that I think about it, since Claire is asleep, we're not in her POV, we're in Jamie's POV, so thus...subtitles. Typing that out makes me feel better. That was the only thing that bugged me about the episode. (And that was a gorgeous scene, and one of my favorites of the season.)

Random things... I also liked how Rupert kept talking about Angus. I liked how Diana slipped in Claire doing some dentistry, which is something she'll do more of in later seasons/books too. Great to see Hugh again. Did he survive? How awesome was that hidden door in the Duke's house behind the gigantic painting? We got some knee action from the prince. Not nearly as exciting as other knees. A lot of things made me laugh in this episode, like Claire and Rupert's conversation about pirates. Loved Claire's speech about being Lady Broch Tuarach and how the men were as much her responsibility as Jamie's. I think that's what really impressed Dougal enough for him to want to go get her back with Jamie. Oh, and Jamie and Murtagh trying to read Claire's note was a hoot. Loved it!

And so much more. I'll have to post again after rewatching...

Edited June 18, 2016 by Petunia846

[morgan]

I agree, I loved that they had Rupert talking about Angus.  And still being Rupert.  I don't know what they will do with him but I would bet money he dies at Culloden.  There has to be at least a few people we care about that die in that battle and fewer people are around.  We may not know for sure till next season though.  Unless his is one of the names Roger finds for Claire, if they do that part.  I think that is how I see it.  

[bearcatfan]

Loved the episode! Characters were true, pacing was good and humor was sprinkled throughout. The changes from the book were true to the story and didn't feel forced. I think DG should write more episodes. I actually clapped when it was over!

[Shorty186]

I now think they've kept Rupert alive to be the witness to Dougal's death. 

I found the part where Claire was trying to escape the house to warn Jamie to be so suspenseful. Which I usually tend not to feel when watching Outlander, since I mostly remember things from the books. I don't know if it was DG's writing or not (since she's talked about how heavily they edited her script), but I really liked it.

The only thing that stuck out as not making sense is when Murtaugh laid the Duke's head at Claire and Mary's feet, since he made no promise to them. He made it to Jamie.

[lianau]

9 hours ago, Dust Bunny said:

On the other side of the spectrum... I had to actually pause the episode when Sandringham told Claire to “be grateful” that he was “simply having you raped”. Is Diana trolling us? I genuinely can’t tell.

I loved that line . I chose to interpret it as Diana's finger to all those "Rapelander" people 

[SoTheresThat]

2 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

Loved the episode! Characters were true, pacing was good and humor was sprinkled throughout. The changes from the book were true to the story and didn't feel forced. I think DG should write more episodes. I actually clapped when it was over!

I do too, but only if it doesn't slow down her writing of book 9.

[toolazy]

2 hours ago, Shorty186 said:

 

The only thing that stuck out as not making sense is when Murtaugh laid the Duke's head at Claire and Mary's feet, since he made no promise to them. He made it to Jamie.

I think that's okay.  Claire & Mary were the ones who were attacked so it would have been kind of icky if he had presented the head to Jamie, as though he owns the women or something.  

Edited June 18, 2016 by toolazy

[ulkis]

Yeah, I agree. I would have liked it if he presented it to all three of them, since Sandringham betrayed Jamie by giving Randall the petition of complaint, but his promise to Jamie was to protect Claire, so it all works out.

[AheadofStraight]

3 hours ago, SugareeMagnolia said:

I do too, but only if it doesn't slow down her writing of book 9.

I think I've seen her comment that she probably won't do another for that very reason. :(

Before watching the episode, I saw some negative comments on Twitter saying this episode was a waste of an hour and worse than The Watch. I was pleased to discover that I completely disagreed. I liked the book changes and loved the humor throughout the episode. Also happy to see J&C snuggle time though I'm disappointed that farewell sex may be all we get.

[morgan]

I'm ok if they don't show a ton of sex, as long as they show love and intimacy.  That scene with Jamie whispering his prayer in Gaelic over a sleeping Claire counts.  As do the two of them emerging from their room with smiles in previous episodes.  I know they are together in every way and it just feels so right.  These small intimidate moments count for so much and it's nice to see them sprinkled throughout.

Dont get me wrong, some good sexy stuff works too.  But it's just so nice to feel their closeness again.  

Now what on earth did the people on Twitter complain about?  That surprises me.  Although I guess it shouldn't because some people love to complain and I suppose you can't please everyone.  But I enjoyed it so much I can't see what they are picking out.  

[theschnauzers]

47 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

I think I've seen her comment that she probably won't do another for that very reason. :(

Before watching the episode, I saw some negative comments on Twitter saying this episode was a waste of an hour and worse than The Watch. I was pleased to discover that I completely disagreed. I liked the book changes and loved the humor throughout the episode. Also happy to see J&C snuggle time though I'm disappointed that farewell sex may be all we get.

What Diana said on FB last night or early today is that she wouldn't do another episode script for "Book 3" and I get the impression she expects to reach the point where she starts pulling together all these viginettes for Book 9 while the next season/book is in production.

[AheadofStraight]

I didn't see specific scenes discussed just that in general it didn't make sense, not entertaining, and was a waste of time with so few episodes left. Seemed out of left field to me.

I do agree on being happy to have the intimate moments. I think sex is on my mind (heh) because I was watching some season 1 episodes, like The Reckoning. Hot stuff. :)

[TaurusRose]

I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED this episode.  

I love that Jamie is such a romantic and poetic soul.  The scene of him praying over Claire in Gaelic was wonderful in its expression of love, tenderness, intimacy and yes, there was reverence, too.  I was happy to see Dougal back so soon and the return of Munro (I missed him).  There was plenty of tension and suspense during the redcoat ambush and again at the duke's home.  I was so afraid one of my faves (Murtagh, Rupert or Dougal) was going to be killed. It's sad seeing Rupert still mourning Angus and that he no longer has Angus to bounce his thoughts off of. It's also nice to see Rupert & Dougal claiming Claire as one of their own when Jamie went after her.  I felt the knife in Jamie's heart when he had to let Claire go with the redcoats.  I adore the intensity of his gaze when looking at his wife, as if he's trying imprint every inch of her to memory.  And how chilling was Dougal's remark that he was holding the man in charge personally responsible for Claire's safety?

The action at Sandringham's was WELL worth the wait.  It was great seeing Mary find her courage to take part in Claire's plan, then to personally take revenge on her rapist.  I was happy that it was revealed St. Germain was a player in the attack on Claire & Mary; it makes his poisoning even more satisfying.  It seems completely in character that Sandringham would suggest raping Claire over murder since he knows the history of rape and its impact on the Frasers. It also shows that Sandringham has no conscience and cares about no one more than himself.

I enjoyed the little bits of humor throughout the episode: the messenger delivering his letter to Munro, Murtagh's critique of Claire's Gaelic, and Sandringham ordering Mary to go to bed.  Speaking of Murtagh, I just want to shout out, "Go, Murtagh!"  He shows that he's a man of his word and I am so glad that the duke finally reaped his just desserts after all the plotting, scheming and harm he had caused.  I thought Murtagh laying vengeance at Claire & Mary's feet was spot on because he felt really, really awful that Mary had her virginity stolen in such a horrific way under his watch.  In his mind he was duty bound to avenge her.  I was impressed by Mary's calm declaration that they should leave afterwards.  I think the lass has grown a spine at last and come into her own.  And lastly, Twitter is crazy; I don't pay tweeters any attention.  This episode compliments Prestonpans nicely. Good job all the way around.

Edited June 18, 2016 by taurusrose

[morgan]

I think my favorite moment with Sandringham was when he realized Claire recognized the servant/rapist.  His facade slipped and it was really jarring.  Well done to Simon Callow for that!  

[Starla]

Okay just to clarify something.. when Jamie was about to leave to church to follow Claire, I thought Rupert said "when you find her give her a wank for me."  LOL, I about choked on my tea at that. A bit later it dawned on me he must have said "wink" rather than "wank." Right? 

[morgan]

I thought the same thing Starla!  Watching now with husband who needs cc on so will double check.  Wink seems more likely.

Cc says wink.  

Edited June 18, 2016 by morgan

[morgan]

So my husband is not a book reader but has watched the show.  Was much more into last season than this one, but still watches every week.  We just finished and he was rivited.  For the first time all season he didn't grab his iPad or phone once and I even caught him perched on the end of his seat a few times.  Rare for him!  It's also the first episode in a while that he didn't have some questions clarifying things.  Loved that he was so into it!  Told him after that Diana wrote it.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

Ye all ken how I feel about Diana's writing.  That said, this was a FANTASTIC episode. I loved almost every moment. I say almost, because I didn't care for the dentistry, and thought they just moved that up from Drums to here! But after reading another comment upthread, I agree, it was probably laying the groundwork for when we do see it later; but, the scene, with the man, the woman, and then the woman and child, it was just like Drums, so, confused?

I enjoyed and swooned over all my Jamie and Claire moments. Especially the Gaelic prayer, the snuggling, kissy-kissy, and SHIRTLESS Jamie.

And Munro LIVES!!!!! Rupert LIVES!!!! Diana said in the after the show, she did this because we lost Angus in the previous episode; another change was that in the buik, the horses were inside the church, but was informed that NO CHURCH was going tae let her have real horses in their churches, so they had to be hidden in the woods. And she said she thought buik readers would be happy to find out that Rupert lives, since he died in the church in the buik.

I was also on the edge of my couch, wondering how they were going to handle Munro and Sandringham's deaths, and was glad that Munro lived, and that we saw The deuke get his. I love Callow so much. At times so very scary, then peppering us with moments of levity and humor.

Now why did I read the mention of Redcoat Barnes being so important Again?

I'm so glad I don't have Twitter.

[ulkis]

I don't know how advanced what she did in the books was, but I wouldn't really call what Claire was doing as dentistry per se. She can probably just tell which teeth were bad enough that they had to go and pulled them out. Now if she were filling in cavities with an herb poultice, then I'd call shenanigans.

2 hours ago, Starla said:

Okay just to clarify something.. when Jamie was about to leave to church to follow Claire, I thought Rupert said "when you find her give her a wank for me."  LOL, I about choked on my tea at that. A bit later it dawned on me he must have said "wink" rather than "wank." Right? 

Yup.

I like that part too, where he was like, what do patches have to do with pirates? It was genuinely funny because it's a modernism that Claire wouldn't necessarily realize was a modernism, unlike a Wizard of Oz reference or something like that.

[TaurusRose]

Question...this has always bothered me.  Is Claire right or left-handed?  If she's right-handed, she's wearing Jamie's ring on that hand and Frank's on the left. Why would she do that since she has pledged herself completely to Jamie?  

Edited June 19, 2016 by taurusrose

[Petunia846]

I knew there was something else...

How totally awesome was Dougal jumping from his horse over to Rupert's to keep him from falling? Like, amazingly awesome.

"The last thing I would do, my dear, is blurt."

So wonderful/horrific when the music cuts out and we just have silence and the sound of Murtugh's ax cutting into the Duke's neck. Bravo.

Good episode. I think the part that's really indicative of Diana's writing is the way there's so much humor sprinkled through out. It's a completely dire episode with tons of gore and suspense, but I've never laughed that much at an Outlander episode. Lots of quotable lines.

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Question...this has always bothered me.  Is Claire right or left-handed?  If she's right-handed, she's wearing Jamie's ring on that hand and Frank's on the left. Why would she do that since she has pledged herself completely to Jamie?  

Claire wears Frank's ring on her left hand as a rememberance/to honor Frank, because he's not really dead; it was something she and Jamie talked about in last season's "The Wedding" and for other reasons.

[morgan]

See I liked that Claire was outside literally pulling teeth while Jamie and BPC were inside figuratively pulling teeth by trying to get the generals to agree to head to London.

[Shorty186]

8 hours ago, toolazy said:

I think that's okay.  Claire & Mary were the ones who were attacked so it would have been kind of icky if he had presented the head to Jamie, as though he owns the women or something.  

I think it was fine that he presented it to Claire and Mary. I just wish that in the previous episode Murtaugh had made the promise to one or both of them.

[areca]

37 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Question...this has always bothered me.  Is Claire right or left-handed?  If she's right-handed, she's wearing Jamie's ring on that hand and Frank's on the left. Why would she do that since she has pledged herself completely to Jamie?  

I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, wedding rings are sometimes worn on the right hand.  It seems to be more "Celt" than "Irish" though in the histories.

[TaurusRose]

27 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Claire wears Frank's ring on her left hand as a rememberance/to honor Frank, because he's not really dead; it was something she and Jamie talked about in last season's "The Wedding" and for other reasons.

It just strikes me as weird because she could remember and honor Frank by wearing it on her right hand just as well.  Her real marriage should be honored by wearing Jamie's ring on her left.  But that's just me being totally anal about it.  Anyway, I don't remember Claire and Jamie having any conversation about Frank's ring in The Wedding.  If there are some book reasons, I'm unaware as I haven't read them and don't plan to.

[lianau]

5 hours ago, morgan said:

Now what on earth did the people on Twitter complain about?  That surprises me.  Although I guess it shouldn't because some people love to complain and I suppose you can't please everyone.  But I enjoyed it so much I can't see what they are picking out.  

Some people treat the book like they are their gospel  and they are very attached to their interpretation of what Jamie and Claire are supposed to be (sometimes that interpretation is more head canon than actual book canon) and what they would and wouldn't do . These people tend to complain about story line changes ( especially changes that are in opposition to their head canon)  or simple canon story lines with characters they don't like (Frank not being portrayed as the devil )

Then you have the Outlander pervs who get off on Jamie and Claire having sex and see the story as more of a background, the way  to get them to have sex at various places . They are complaining because Jamie and Claire aren't having enough visible sex and instead story is happening .

[TaurusRose]

17 hours ago, areca said:

I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, wedding rings are sometimes worn on the right hand. 

I accept this.  •ᴗ•

Edited June 19, 2016 by taurusrose

[Nidratime]

Rupert's had a rough ride. His side is sliced open. He loses his eye. And Lord knows what might happen to him at Culloden. He's reminding me of the Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail who kept fighting despite losing all his limbs.

[Archery]

I love how Jamie totally knows what Murtagh is going to do, and just pushes the Duke in his direction.

[WatchrTina]

Well I really enjoyed this episode.  It is not perfect, but I really liked it.

 

THE GOOD

Rupert and Hugh both survived the episode.  Yay!

The second time I watched I loved the foreshadowing of the title card, with the Duke’s wig hitting the floor.

At first I thought Jamie’s eagerness to continue on to London was a weakness.  I couldn’t understand why he was so keen to proceed when all the other military minds in the room were opposed.  But when he told Claire that he was trying to change history, it all made perfect sense.  The fact that he could not change history adds yet another layer of dread at the inevitability of how this is all going to end.

I was rather annoyed with the Prince for taking Jamie’s horse but now I see that it was to keep him out of the hands of the redcoats.  If I recall the book correctly, we’ll be hearing about Jamie’s horse again in the finale.

I loved the fleeting look of sadness on Rupert’s face when Jamie speaks of Lallybroch and “home.”  Lallybroch isn’t home for him.  I also liked his repeatedly mentioning Angus, who is clearly in his thoughts.

That scene between Jamie & Claire in the bed – Mon Dieu!  Thank you to the director for shirtless Jamie and all the extreme close-ups.

Gorgeous scenery when they were on the march!

The shot of the redcoats lighting their torches and fanning out around the church was really good.

I don’t recall Jamie objecting to the idea of Claire playing the English-lady-in-distress card again in the book.  But I’m glad it’s in the episode and I’m glad Dougal forced the issue because both of those character beats rang true to me.

Can I just be shallow and say that Jamie looked particularly appealing and heroic as he prepares to set out in pursuit of Claire.  All that hair blowing in the wind . . . (sigh.)

Everything having to do with Hugh Munroe was made of win.  So happy to see him back in the story.

I’m glad to see both Mary and The Duke again and I’m going to whistle past the unbelievable, dare I say “Dickensian,” coincidence that brings them both back into the story at this point.  After all, Charles Dickens was thought to be rather a good writer.

I like that Claire’s Gaelic sucks.  Much more realistic than if she suddenly is fluent.

I really like that TVSandringham is under suspicion as a Jacobite.  It’s never clear where BookSandringham’s loyalties lie but I always did think it odd that he could consort with Jacobites in the book and yet not seem to suffer any consequences from the British crown.  I loved the change wherein the Duke is lamenting his situation and plans to betray Jamie and the Jacobite cause for his own greedy purposes.  That was certainly consistent with the character of a man who would have a woman raped to settle a debt.  His motivations in the book are much more difficult to unravel.

OMG the door behind the painting. – I LOVE it.  I can’t wait to hear where the Duke’s estate was filmed.

Loved that Mary gets to kill Danton, the rapist.  It is interesting to me, however, that being gut-stabbed on Outlander appears to be much more fatal than, say, on Game of Thrones.  If Danton had been on that show he could have been doing parkour the very next day.

 

THE BAD

The choreography of the fight with the redcoats was very confusing.  Upon first viewing it sure looked like Jamie, Claire, Murtagh, Rupert & Dougal – the only ones with horses – were abandoning the rest of Jamie’s men to certain death at the hands of the redcoats.  I was equally confused when Ross turned up at the church – that was a hell of a coincidence and it’s not one I can whistle past.  And why did Ross say the other horses were hidden close by?  I don’t think they had any other horses.  I sure didn’t see any in that montage as they rode across country.  Where were all the other men?  Were they in the church too?   I didn’t see them.   I wish at least a few of them had been visible there.  I would have made Claire’s “Am I not Lady Broch Tuarach?” speech much more meaningful.  Instead, we hear Jamie say “Gather the rest of the men and meet us . . .” somewhere.  What rest of the men?  That sequence was VERY confusing.

And speaking of horses – what happened to Dougal’s company of Highland Dragoons?  Are we to assume he lost that commission when he was ordered to ride with Jamie to Inverness?

It was smart of Dougal to tell Jamie to keep hidden since “Red Jamie” is a wanted man.  But really – wouldn’t the redcoats have checked the church to make sure they got all the weapons?  That oversight strained credulity.

The choreography of Jamie’s assault on the mansion is likewise very muddy.  Claire warns him not to approach the house – it’s a trap.  He comes in anyway and no redcoats notice (even though they only take out two of the guards that we saw.)  Yeah, that was all pretty weak.

Murtagh blew his line.  He promised (back in Paris) to lay “just vengeance” at Jamie’s feet.  Not to lay “your vengeance” at Claire’s feet.

 

THE UGLY

Death by axe is never pretty.

 

OTHER

I do think it is interesting that Diana sought to correct an “error” in the book.  In the book, when Claire kills the Comte, the readers don’t mind very much since we think he’s behind the attack on Claire and Mary.  But he really was innocent of that crime (which, BTW, is how Stanley Weber played it in the Star Chamber scene in my opinion.)  If that is true, then BookClaire is complicit in the death of an “innocent” man (though really it was M. Raymond who poisoned him.)  In the TV version, Le Comte IS guilty of orchestrating the attack on Claire (assuming, of course, that the Duke is telling the truth.) That makes his death a “just” one, which I prefer.

Edited June 19, 2016 by WatchrTina

[peacefrog]

I thought the humorous moments were really good. Other than that it was just OK. It was straight from the book and I was a little bored. I know they did make a change with Rupert  but we already knew he wasn't go to die. 

Very unpopular opinion but I thought J talking to C in bed was cringed and awkward. It reminded me of other lines that didn't work for me in the books & show.: "I feel like God himself..." and the "I am your master...". 

At least we got some showing of intimacy. Wanting to see intimacy in different ways does not make one a pervert. It's normal, healthy and a big part of the story. As big a part and more than various rapes of secondary characters. 

I didn't like that they made the Comte part of the rape plan. Mostly because I liked him in the show so much better. 

One last thing. I thought this reminded me of several season 1  episodes. Mostly a lot of The Garrison Commander. Red Coats telling Dougal they will take Claire, Claire sitting at table with Duke. Also a little Reckoning with Jamie saving Claire. 

[WatchrTina]

I just read something that Diana posted about the episode that included this quote:

Quote

I had one line in this episode that read, “…you bloody, pig-headed Scot!” I wasn’t on set when that scene was filmed, though (I’d had to come home for Thanksgiving), and when I saw it in the dailies, it had come out as “…you stubborn Scot!” So I have no idea whether Caitriona didn’t like “…bloody, pig-headed,” whether the director thought the rhythm was too pronounced for the pacing of that scene, or what. It wasn’t an important change at all—but that’s an indication of the sort of stuff that happens All The Time.

Now I think that is interesting because Diana's line, as originally written, seems much more in keeping with how I think Claire speaks. I actually noticed the "You stubborn Scot" line the first time I watched the episode and thought it rang false -- not at all in keeping with Claire's voice.

[Squirrely]

I hated that they showed Murtaugh behead Sandringham. I'll never forget that moment the first time I read the book, when it was revealed his head was in the bag (or wrap, or whatever.). Imagine how that would have played on TV! I was so looking forward to reading the reactions in the non-book thread on that one. It was very anti-climactic the way they did it. But I'm so glad Hugh Munro survived, and Mary got her own vengeance.

Good ep, but dear lord how much are they going to cram into season 3, with the 1960's scenes? Voyager already needs 2 seasons as it is. I understand the sentiments from Twitter, as far as the amount time spent on these particular scenes goes. There's a LOT left to cover in 2 episodes, even without all that's been left out. 

[AheadofStraight]

I'll have to watch again but was Fergus in the latter half of the episode? Like during the horse chase and the church?

[morgan]

Fergus was at the church, he suggested Claire faint.  Afterwards I assumed he stayed with Lallybroch men but we didn't see him again after they surrendered the weapons.

Grashka, I must be wearing rose colored glasses because I just enjoyed this episode and went along for the ride!  

[Haleth]

Fergus was riding with Murtagh during the chase but he did seem to disappear after that.  He must have been in the background at the church.

Rupert's eye wound was so gross I had to turn away.  Pirate with a parrot, LOL.

"She even spelled 'help' wrong!"  (However the line went.)  Oh, Murtagh, never change.

The Gaelic prayer scene was lovely.  

[morgan]

WatchrTina, I loved that door behind the painting too!  Always wanted a secret passage in my house.  So cool.

i think our main guys told the rest they would split and reconvene at the crossroads (by rest it was just the 30 or so Lallybroch men).  Which is where the church ended up being.  I do wish we saw more people in the church, I just whistle and assume they are in the back.  

Maybe I whistled a lot at things in this ep.  Listened to S&S podcast and I didn't have the quibbles they had with the latter half either.  I think I've always whistled a lot with Diana's books though (my goodness they meet every notable historical person don't they???).  She tells a fun and compelling story though, so maybe that is one reason why I do just accept the ride for the most part.

[Nidratime]

Quote

I don't know about twitter, but I looked at tumbrl blogs and a lot of people there hated this episode vehemently: it was a random stream of scenes, they are wasting time on dumb storylines and pulling teeth instead of telling J&C love story and there was no sex scene again!, Murtagh was out of the character and "hating" on Claire (meaning his snarky comments, I suppose?), dialog sounded like from fanfiction, and the end with Murtagh laying vengeace at women' feet made no sense.

I don't know where all these people's heads are at. All of this stuff was in the book. In fact, they left stuff out because of time (and the lack of an actor).  As for the humor, Diana wrote this and I can see the difference. She interjected more bits of humor than we usually get and I enjoyed that. For instance, they guy who took the message to Hugh Munro. "Customarily, I'd be given a tip upon delivery!" he says, after Munro immediately scampers away. The double giggle over first, expecting a tip in the middle of all that, and two, over expecting a tip from a beggar!

[nodorothyparker]

I wanted to like this one more than I think I ultimately did.  As it was, it wasn't bad but it wasn't phenomenal either.  There was lots of good stuff: Jamie and Murtagh trying to decipher Claire's letter was comedy gold as was the Duke hurriedly putting his wig back on when Jamie finally showed up (gotta be pretty for the object of your desire even when your super duper secret plan is to trap said object of your desire).  There were some bits of fabulous, like secret doors in paneling and through paintings, Dougal's midgallop rescue of Rupert and the entire chase scene through pretty scenery, and the fur collared cloak the Duke was suddenly and inexplicably wearing in the house and then dropped like the best kind of Disney villain.  But there were also a lot of very confusing action sequences where I was left scratching my head to figure out how characters got from one point to another or was left asking "wait, did all our named cast just ride off and abandon their foot soldiers to their fates?"

I'm also glad the Duke is finally dead, although there was so much over the top mustache twirling delivery in this episode that it wouldn't surprise me in the least for his severed head to reanimate just to chew some more scenery.  Simon Callow has done a lot of good things with this part, but this was the episode he finally hit one level below ACME safe dropping territory for me.

I got why Jamie was arguing for what would have been a most likely suicidal march toward London.  As a named traitor and Red Jamie, he's a dead man either way unless they pull out some miraculous victory and he's desperate to change history, any history, at this point to head off their rush to Culloden.  But the show hasn't done a great job of spelling this out if the nonbook readers I'm watching with are to be believed.  Because when the English officers told our group at the church to go home and resume being loyal British subjects, I had to answer the questions of why can't they just do that.  If they can't stop history, why can't they just claim to be loyalists like a lot of colonists did in our Revolutionary War or pack up and leave Scotland?  I've been bothered by the show's Cliff Notes version of some of this since the scene where young Lord John burst in on Jamie and immediately called him the notorious Red Jamie without any sort of context or the reality that Jamie hadn't done anything up to that point but have his name appear on a list and march some muddy men around.  The show still hasn't made clear why it's Jamie's face on a wanted poster and not the prince's or any of the other assorted characters we've seen.  And yeah, I know, the show has touched briefly on all this so it's not like they haven't addressed it at all.  But apparently to nonbook readers, a lot of it's been blink and you'll miss it amid all the flashier stuff.

Edited June 19, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[WatchrTina]

Random Outlander thought of the morning:  why did the redcoats fire upon a group of Highlanders peacefully camping by the river?  They'd ridden a fair distance away from the main Jacobite forces by then (we saw the montage.)  What justification could they have for firing on them?  Were they flying BPC's banner, marking them as rebels?  I'll have to look again during this morning's viewing with Ron Moore's podcast.

[morgan]

Yes!  The humor reminded me so much of the book.  I remember when outlander first started last season after a couple of episodes while I was still adjusting to tvClaire, I said to my friend (huge fan of books who started me on then) I feel like I'm missing some of the humor in the books.  Realizing a lot of that was in Claire's head, so learned to let it go and accept and grew to really enjoy what the show is.  But last night's episode sprinkled some of that humor in and I enjoyed it.  

[morgan]

WatchrTina, they were riding with the Jacobite flag so maybe that's why?