Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Ambrosefolly]

On July 23, 2016 at 0:48 PM, doram said:

The whole Jonsa thing reminds me of when the producers of Avatar: The Last Airbender repeatedly shut down the possibility of Zutara and the Zutara fans said that rather than the producers obviously trying to forestall the backlash of their disappointment, it was Evidence that Zutara *was* going to happen. Because if it wasn't going to happen, they'd have said it was. ??? ::shakes head:: So that's how that pairing went from a crack ship to a 'meant to be canon' ship, and to date, 5 years and counting after that show ended, the fans still bear a grudge. I know fans will ship what they will, but looking for hidden (opposite) interpretations in plain statements has never ended well.

And this is way off topic, but I thought the resolution to Zuko/Katara was perfect,even though I shipped them myself. Katara hated Zuko for betraying Aang Gang and his role in Aang dying the first time, and Zuko did a lot to make it up to her and I loved it that it didn't come from a romantic type place. By the end of the show,  the mutual respect and friendship they developed was far more meaningful and far less trite than pairing them at the end. 

So I really don't want to ship anyone on this show. What I am most interested is not Jon/Dany, but Dany vs. Bran and what Bran will mean for the Game. If this show goes on for a couple more seasons, which is what I have been hearing, I might not get the match up this season, but if I do, how would Dany deal with someone like Bran.  I am not talking Jon, because he might have been the center of his own miracle, but he had help coming back; there isn't anything supernatural about him, or at least anything that could do Dany in, so Jon would probably bend the knee to spare the North from the dragons, but Bran possibly has powers that could rival her own. Plus, despite his major fuck ups, he has as much compassion for people as she does. Her initial grip with the rulers of Slaver's Bay is that they refused to free their slaves. The North is ruled by one of the most compassionate Houses in the Seven Kingdoms. Her rule over the North won't be better than the Starks.

[Advance35]

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Says Weiss, “I think the books are built on a sort of skeleton of Medieval western history. But one of the great things about fantasy is you’re not bound to what happened, so George [R.R. Martin] when he wrote his books got to pick all the bits that he liked the most, and he got to skip the so-and-so begat so-and-so, begat so-and-so part of history. He got to paper over that and he drew on Mongols, he drew on Native Americans, he drew on everything. He was a very deeply read in world history, and we get to do the same thing. That’s one of the real joys, we’re both history buffs. We get to look at every awful thing that’s happened in the world, not just one part of the world, and just cram it in 10 hours.

Weiss catches himself with a pause. “Seven hours rather…”

I don't think I've seen this posted before but it's a quote from the SDCC panel and it really makes me think that the rest of this story isn't going to center on Ice Zombies and Others.  I have know doubt they will be important but I think the relationships or lack thereof between various characters and factions are still going to be play a huge role.

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Don’t read nefariousness in every plot point, particularly since Turner confirms Sansa doesn’t want to rule over Jon, but rule by his side as King and Queen in the North… which might be necessary since Jon is a dope.

I also liked this quote as it paints a clearer picture for me on ST see's her character.  I don't necessarily AGREE with everything she said but it's clear that at this point ST does not feel Sansa views Jon as an enemy or anything close to it and actually acknowledges that Sansa and Jon have gotten as far as they have due to BOTH their efforts.  I like her take and hope for the Sansa character in terms of political acumen (though I do think she can be  a bit of a space case) and in some ways, think the story could go how she described.

Anyway, nothing revelatory but other write ups can be found here.  

SDCC Write Ups

[sunflower]

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Don’t read nefariousness in every plot point, particularly since Turner confirms Sansa doesn’t want to rule over Jon, but rule by his side as King and Queen in the North… which might be necessary since Jon is a dope.

So, are they surprised when some fans ship Jon and Sansa?  Because in this world, Brothers and Sisters don't rule as King and Queens unless they're Targaryens?  Hey! I wonder....

[anamika]

18 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I also liked this quote as it paints a clearer picture for me on ST see's her character.  I don't necessarily AGREE with everything she said but it's clear that at this point ST does not feel Sansa views Jon as an enemy or anything close to it and actually acknowledges that Sansa and Jon have gotten as far as they have due to BOTH their efforts.  I like her take and hope for the Sansa character in terms of political acumen (though I do think she can be  a bit of a space case) and in some ways, think the story could go how she described.

I don't think Sophie has stated anywhere that she sees Jon as the enemy. Rather, as the quote you provided surmises,

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Sansa doesn’t want to rule over Jon, but rule by his side as King and Queen in the North… which might be necessary since Jon is a dope.

Turner has always maintained, in most interviews she has given, that Jon is too stupid to rule and does not have Sansa's experience and political acumen and hence Sansa has decided that she would be the right person to rule. Which is not true by any definition, even on the show, where Jon's character has been stripped of nuance and intelligence to project Sansa as being more politically savvy. Book Jon can be dumbed down 80% on the show and still not be less intelligent than Sansa. Have we seen any successful diplomacy, leadership skills, team working or advanced intellect from her?

Sure, Jon fell for Ramsay's  games but Sansa was written as having willingly marrying into the family that betrayed and killed her mother/brother and who underestimated Ramsay right up until she got raped on her wedding night. Sansa is being written as someone who is still susceptible to LF's remarks about Jon despite knowing that LF is not trustworthy. The people Sansa has distrusted thus far has been Brienne, Davos, Tormund and Jon himself. I am not sure what this says about Sansa's intellect. She’s the last person who should be advising Jon in any capacity.

As for diplomacy, Jon has managed to convince enemy Wildlings, twice, to join with him. Sure, he had help from Tormund, but that's another thing: Jon's a team player. He was appreciative of Davos when Sansa snidely comments on him getting them 62 men. He can even ask for men from the Boltons to fight the WW threat. People often disparage Ned as being a fool, but Jon learning from Ned has actually helped - My father always said we find our true friends on the battle field. Jon has earned the loyalty of the free folk by his actions, not because of his name. Turner criticizes Jon's 'Stark morals' that does not benefit anyone, but those Stark morals has saved countless lives and I suspect is one of the reasons why Lyanna Mormont pledges her support to Jon.

From Sophie Turner's comments it look likes they are going to write it such that Sansa/LF want the North because Sansa thinks she will be better at the job. This is worrying for two reasons :

1. The show has not done a good job this season writing Sansa as a political player of the game and a 'superb diplomat' as per Isaac. Instead Sansa just comes across as a whiny, condescending snob who holds back vital, strategic information about the Vale army because she wants the credit and then is angry at Jon because she did not get that credit. I am not sure they will do any better next year. Come next season, we may be again debating why Sansa's story on screen is different to what the actors/writers are telling us in interviews.

2. Jon's character takes a hit. He has already been depicted as a 'dope' to prop up Sansa and I am not sure how much worse they will make it next season to justify Sansa undermining his actions with LF's help. As per GRRM, Jon's Sansa free arc in the books has been about learning to lead. But according to Turner, Jon ' does not have the intellect or experience' to rule or lead. So if they write Jon this way next season, him becoming leader of anything will be as unearned as his KITN moment. So, Jon's plot also goes down the drain.

So, I am still not a fan of the whole 'Sansa in the North' story. At this point I am hoping they resolve this Jon - Sansa thing soon, preferably in the first half of next year's shorter season and then Sansa can go south and practice her political acumen skills on Lady Olenna or someone. Or go bargain with Dany and Tyrion if they want to build her up as a 'superb diplomat'. Or just give her Sansa's book story of trying to take down LF.

Edited July 28, 2016 by anamika

[Advance35]

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Sansa can go south and practice her political acumen skills on Lady Olenna or someone. Or go bargain with Dany and Tyrion if they want to build her up as a 'superb diplomat'. Or just give her Sansa's book story of trying to take down LF.

I couldn't agree with you less about quite a few things but the above quote, I'd sign the petition.   Pre-Sansa the North bored me and while I like Jon ok, I was more moved by Margaery's death then his, so I can basically take or leave him.   But Sansa with momentum characters like Tyrion and Olenna, I'm all for it.  This show was at it's height and at it's most water-cooler when Kings Landing was the center of the Universe.   Have to disagree with them using Jon to prop up Sansa.  As much as I wish it were so, Sansa is not one of GRRM's precious 5.   They have somewhere they want the character and are moving to get her there but I can't see them ever allowing Sansa (though for my money, one of the most interesting journey's on the show, certainly of the Starks) to take precedence over Resurrection is an option, Jon Snow.

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So, are they surprised when some fans ship Jon and Sansa?  Because in this world, Brothers and Sisters don't rule as King and Queens unless they're Targaryens?  Hey! I wonder....

LMAO. Ok I'm ashamed to say that potential deeper meaning totally escaped me at first. LMAO.  

I guess ST's not thinking of Sansa's longterm situation.  Jon and Sansa could rule as "King and Queen", UNTIL he takes a wife, then she is out on her a$$ without a castle to her name.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

  But Sansa with momentum characters like Tyrion and Olenna, I'm all for it.  This show was at it's height and at it's most water-cooler when Kings Landing was the center of the Universe.

Sure, it will be interesting to see how they tackle Sansa with characters like Olenna and Tyrion . The writers cannot reduce the IQ of favorites like Olenna and Tyrion,  who are known for their wit. They may have to try a different approach or we will get more bad writing where we have to deduce afterwards from the interviews that Sansa was actually being clever and diplomatic in her scenes with them.

IMO the Lannisters, the Tyrells and the spy masters was what made KL an interesting place. Sansa served to provide some insight into the Lannisters and the goings on in KL, but as a character, I have always found her to be rather insipid and uninteresting. Maybe this time around, now that she is supposedly a player of the game and all that, she can interact more meaningfully with Tyrion and Olenna and maybe I will find her less annoying than I did last season.

And Sansa moving south would mean that it would free up Jon to interact with a Faceless Men assassin or a three eyed Raven!

Anyway, all this is wishful thinking, because I am fairly certain that we are going to be mired in nonsensical Jon Vs Sansa for most of season 7 with LF whispering in Sansa's ear like Grima whispers to Theoden King in LOTR.

Arya is interesting - There's so many options here. She may head south, to Cersei - in which case we may get a possible Dany/Arya meeting. She may head North with the Hound and the brotherhood and meet up with Jon and Sansa. No idea on what they plan to do with Brienne.

I read this interview with David and Dan and it's interesting what they see as the final chess pieces being on the board :

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It’s two more seasons we’re talking about. From pretty close to the beginning, we talked about doing this in 70-75 hours, and that’s what we’ll end up with. Call it 73 for now. We’re trying to tell one cohesive story with a beginning, middle and end. As Dan said, we’ve known the end for quite some time and we’re hurtling towards it. Those last images from the show that aired last night showed that. Daenerys is finally coming back to Westeros; Jon Snow is king of the North and Cersei is sitting on the Iron Throne. And we know the Night King is up there, waiting for all of them. The pieces are on the board now. Some of the pieces have been removed from the board and we are heading toward the end game.

http://deadline.com/2016/06/game-of-thrones-season-6-finale-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-hbo-1201780242/

I do think it's all rather simple and straightforward from this point on. Call it predictable even. But I don't foresee any twists. Without the books, they can do nothing but go straight for the ending. It will be Jaime/Cersei Vs Dany/Tyrion. Jaime will take out Cersei and join the Targ force. Meanwhile in the North after the Stark civil war is over, Jon is looking for reinforcements. They meet in the middle, make alliances and fight the White Walkers. Somewhere Jon's ancestry will come into play, Bran will warg some dragons and Arya will kill some White Walkers with needle.

Edited July 28, 2016 by anamika

[Advance35]

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And Sansa moving south would mean that it would free up Jon to interact with a Faceless Men assassin or a three eyed Raven!

Meh. If Bran's not showing me the future I'm not interested.  Arya could be bitten by a radio-active spider and walk on castle walls at this point, the shape shifting nonsense lost me.   But maybe Jon could be a grounding force for those sci-fi like storylines.   I'd be perfectly happy with that, not especially enthralled but it would  keep the consolidation of characters the showrunners are going for.

D&D talked about the Tyrells, Dorne and Kings Landing like they all still have prominent roles to play and I think they know that the Court Intrigue has traditionally been the most popular part of the show so I do think that sort of thing will be present throughout the rest of the run, we clearly know who will win but I expect more twist and double-cross on the way, to keep things interesting.   They made it seem like Olenna in particular would evolve.

[Minneapple]

I still want all the remaining Starks to reunite at some point. Even if it's, like, the last scene of the series.

But I don't want straightforward or predictable or simple. I want things to at least be a little messy and twisty.

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

From Sophie Turner's comments it look likes they are going to write it such that Sansa/LF want the North because Sansa thinks she will be better at the job.

Possibly. It seems more likely to me that Sansa will write off rulership of the North as a lost cause, pick up her ball and go home by leaving with the Vale army, maybe to head back to the Riverlands to clear out the Freys. There would be plenty of conflict in such a scenario, but not over rulership of the North: Sansa would want the Vale army for her own purposes, and Jon would want them to stick around to face the WW threat. Sansa would want to rebuild the Tully presence in the Riverlands using the Vale army to achieve success in her own right and build an army loyal to her alone, and Jon would want her to forget about her own ambitions and focus on the bigger picture.

5 hours ago, Advance35 said:

As much as I wish it were so, Sansa is not one of GRRM's precious 5. 

So many fans have forgotten this, but it's important to bear in mind when fans are tempted to spin endgame scenarios involving Sansa as Queen of anything. It could happen, but I very much doubt it. Given her ambition and desperation for recognition, I'm getting Cersei 2.0 vibes from her at this point; she even more or less quoted Cersei's line to Tywin with her "Did it ever occur to you that I might have some insight?" to Jon (or however it was phrased). Sansa's wistful "It's a pretty picture" comment when Littlefinger said he wanted her on the Iron Throne did little to reassure me.

Basically, Jon >>>> Sansa in the meta grand scheme of things. If she goes against him in any way, even passively by taking the Vale knights south as I expect she will, she's as good as dead.

3 hours ago, anamika said:

I do think it's all rather simple and straightforward from this point on. Call it predictable even. But I don't foresee any twists. Without the books, they can do nothing but go straight for the ending. It will be Jaime/Cersei Vs Dany/Tyrion. Jaime will take out Cersei and join the Targ force. Meanwhile in the North after the Stark civil war is over, Jon is looking for reinforcements. They meet in the middle, make alliances and fight the White Walkers. Somewhere Jon's ancestry will come into play, Bran will warg some dragons and Arya will kill some White Walkers with needle.
 

Throw in Sansa and LF dying at some point, and it sounds about right.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

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It seems more likely to me that Sansa will write off rulership of the North as a lost cause, pick up her ball and go home by leaving with the Vale army, maybe to head back to the Riverlands to clear out the Freys.

This seems less likely to me, given that Sansa has been all "rah rah North Winterfell Starks" lately. I guess anything could happen though, given that they made Sansa a player and then stuck her in a rape plot. Also I think the Freys are finished and doubt we'll see them again.

But eta to say I could see Sansa becoming a mini-Cersei, or Cersei in the North. Maybe with a little less crazed need for power. I always thought that was the trajectory of her arc.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Minneapple

[Avaleigh]

I don't see Sansa becoming a mini Cersei. I thought the whole point of seeing Sansa during the Battle of the Blackwater both in the show and the book is to demonstrate that at the age of twelve, Sansa is already a better potential queen than someone like Cersei who has been queen for over a decade at this point. Sansa was doing all of the right things and was learning from Cersei's poor example. I can't see her going the Cersei route because she's seen for herself that it isn't a successful path. There's one point where Sansa thinks about she would work to make the people love her rather than fear her and I thought that was a key difference between the outlook that she has and the outlook that Cersei has. 

[mac123x]

Have to disagree with them using Jon to prop up Sansa.  As much as I wish it were so, Sansa is not one of GRRM's precious 5. 

 

I'm drawing a blank:  Arya, Dany, Tyrion, Jon, and .... Daario?  (I kid!  I kid!)  Who is the 5th?

Edited July 28, 2016 by mac123x

[WearyTraveler]

7 minutes ago, mac123x said:

 

 

I'm drawing a blank:  Arya, Dany, Tyrion, Jon, and .... Daario?  (I kid!  I kid!)  Who is the 5th?

Bran

[Avaleigh]

15 minutes ago, mac123x said:

 

 

I'm drawing a blank:  Arya, Dany, Tyrion, Jon, and .... Daario?  (I kid!  I kid!)  Who is the 5th?

Bran, I would think. 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Avaleigh
Sorry, WearyTraveler, I didn't realize you'd posted.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

This seems less likely to me, given that Sansa has been all "rah rah North Winterfell Starks" lately. I guess anything could happen though, given that they made Sansa a player and then stuck her in a rape plot. Also I think the Freys are finished and doubt we'll see them again.

But eta to say I could see Sansa becoming a mini-Cersei, or Cersei in the North. Maybe with a little less crazed need for power. I always thought that was the trajectory of her arc.

I doubt D&D unintentionally or accidentally put two scenes in back to back episodes where Sansa and Cersei walk away from cells, leaving their respective torturers to suffer hideous torments. Subtle they ain't.

Sansa was all about reclaiming her home, but I think she hadn't given much thought to what would come next after defeating Ramsay. I don't even think she was thinking much about leadership in the North until LF pointed out that it would be an issue.

As for sticking around in the North, she might sour on the North now that the Northerners--even the Valemen!--acclaimed Jon as KITN while acting as if Sansa wasn't even in the room. She's probably not too keen on the prospect of Jon, newly crowned as KITN, continuing to treat her as a little sister to be cared for and protected rather than as an equal and as a savvy advisor, something that caused her no end of frustration before the BOTB. Moreover, Sansa has probably realized that even if Jon dies, she'll still have to do the hard work of winning over the Northerners to be named QITN, and she might not be too interested in having to bow and scrape to get them on board when in her mind they should just roll over and acknowledge her status as the eldest trueborn living Stark and the rightful heir.

Sansa knows that her title of Lady of Winterfell is pretty much meaningless, now that it's been divorced from rulership of the North. It also seems that she wants recognition and respect, both of which are unlikely to be accorded to her by Jon (who sees her as his baby sister) or by the Northerners (who've made it clear that they prefer Jon over her, who doubt her Stark credentials, and who place no weight on her actions at the BOTB). Given this, she has two options: try to get back in power in the North (which would involve undermining or killing Jon), or go south to try to throw her weight around in another arena. I think Sansa would balk at moving against Jon directly, but I believe LF could talk her into writing off the North and heading south.

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I don't see Sansa becoming a mini Cersei. I thought the whole point of seeing Sansa during the Battle of the Blackwater both in the show and the book is to demonstrate that at the age of twelve, Sansa is already a better potential queen than someone like Cersei who has been queen for over a decade at this point. Sansa was doing all of the right things and was learning from Cersei's poor example. I can't see her going the Cersei route because she's seen for herself that it isn't a successful path. There's one point where Sansa thinks about she would work to make the people love her rather than fear her and I thought that was a key difference between the outlook that she has and the outlook that Cersei has. 

While Sansa is not the saintly angel of mercy and compassion that some of her fans believe her to be, she's not evil like Cersei, who even as a child showed rare viciousness. However, I think it's misleading to act as if Sansa circa ACOK/Season 2 was the be-all and end-all of her character development. In both mediums, she has changed significantly since Blackwater and has become hardened and embittered. It would be more interesting to me if Sansa wound up just as jaded and power-hungry as Cersei after having similar experiences, continuing the same sad cycle.

[paigow]

27 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

While Sansa is not the saintly angel of mercy and compassion that some of her fans believe her to be, she's not evil like Cersei,..

What is she without Baelish and the Knights that HE ultimately controls? What relevant advice can she give now, given that her "area of expertise" is dead? Baelish is best positioned to consolidate power in the Riverlands - Riverrun & The Twins are vulnerable. Sansa should leave with him.

[screamin]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

What is she without Baelish and the Knights that HE ultimately controls? What relevant advice can she give now, given that her "area of expertise" is dead? Baelish is best positioned to consolidate power in the Riverlands - Riverrun & The Twins are vulnerable. Sansa should leave with him.

Why? Sansa may or may not be chafing at being only the Lady of Winterfell under Jon...but the presence of Jon, his authority and his men is a counterweight to whatever pressure LF can bring to bear on her. If she goes with LF back to the Vale, she's back fully under his power and back to square one...completely a pawn again. 

If she wants Riverrun and the Twins, she can stay in Winterfell and bid LF get them for her and lay the spoils at her feet to prove his loyalty and puissance...she can monitor his progress from afar by raven (it would be pretty big news).

[TxanGoddess]

Sansa right now kind of reminds me of the show Survivor back when it was still fresh.  You ended up seeing a lot of people pass up alliances that would have probably been their best shot at winning because it meant basically just having to wait and do relatively little as an individual and they just couldn't be that patient. Some people confuse decisive action with greater self determination.  Otoh sometimes you had those folks who it did work out for to notfly under the radar but constantly be engaging whether it was political or physical like that one super hot guy (from Texas naturally) that was just a beast in all the challenges.

With Jon the deal is all pretty upfront but doesn't provide her with a lot of opportunities to assert herself in the world.  At least not to start out with.  In exchange she can be safe and relatively unburdened by things she doesn't want to do.  She can be free but lack power.

With Littlefinger she will be able to--even expected--to take action but at his direction.  She will be constrained by acting in their supposed interest but she will be powerful and decisive.  Of course the deal with him is always a game ... nothing transparent and the risk is that things can go downhill any time.

The personal qualities of the two men set aside; it's admittedly an interesting dichotomy.  

Edited July 29, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[Minneapple]

I don't see Sansa becoming cruel or vicious like Cersei. Just...manipulative and cunning. Distrustful of men.

But I don't see her chafing at Jon's leadership, then being all, "Welp, time to give up the North and my ancestral home. See ya!"

7 hours ago, paigow said:

What is she without Baelish and the Knights that HE ultimately controls? What relevant advice can she give now, given that her "area of expertise" is dead? Baelish is best positioned to consolidate power in the Riverlands - Riverrun & The Twins are vulnerable. Sansa should leave with him.

If Baelish dies, Sansa would still be Robin's cousin. 

[mac123x]

20 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Bran

[Homer Simpson voice] D'oh!

[anamika]

I wonder, of the current rulers and their hands which pair would come out on top if they were put up against each other. Cersei/Qyburn, Dany/Tyrion and say Jon/Davos. Tyrion gives Dany an advantage here, but hypeman Davos is no slouch either and Qyburn's sneaky ways and little birds may give him an advantage.

[FemmyV]

On 7/28/2016 at 8:46 AM, anamika said:

Bran will warg some dragons and Arya will kill some White Walkers with needle.

Needle, to our knowledge, is plain old castle-forged, not Valyrian steel. She can still cut some zombies' eyes out but otherwise, don't know how much damage she can do with it.

 

On 7/28/2016 at 3:12 PM, Avaleigh said:

Sansa was doing all of the right things and was learning from Cersei's poor example. I can't see her going the Cersei route because she's seen for herself that it isn't a successful path.

As of this writing, Cersei's path is successful from a power POV. Right now, she is sole Queen.

Edited July 30, 2016 by FemmyV

[shireenbamfatheon]

At the risk of sounding like a Debbie Downer, I can imagine the show going down the predictable route, with Dany winning effortlessly and getting to crowd surf on a bunch of commoners (this time white people to balance out the sketchiness). Then she learns of the threat up North so the noble queen joins the fight agains the Others to save her people, with the Starks immediately taking to her and Arya remarking how cool it is to have a woman being in charge, and her dragons being effective, despite Dany having to navigate them in complete darkness and amidst blizzards, hundreds of feet up in the air.

Here's sorta how it could go if it were to make sense and if the Ds were actually invested in the show and didn't just want to finish it ASAP. 

Winter has already reached the south once Dany invades (snow in the throne room in Dany's vision) and Dany's soldiers lose most of their effectiveness. Come on, it can't be a coincidence they're all southerners and/or used to very hot weather. The horses starve to death and the Dothraki are screwed. They're still terrifying, but it's more psychological than anything.

Jaime refuses to join Dany for several reasons, one of them being that she's allied with the people responsible for the murder of his daughter. Tyrion learns of Myrcella's fate and is enraged, feeling partly responsible since he sent her to Dorne against her will. He demands justice from Dany who has to choose between Tyrion and the child killers, while Tyrion has to choose between Jaime, the only person he loves in world, and Dany, ultimately choosing his brother. If they'd included the three treasons, this could be the treason for love, which is how I see it happening in the books. 

LF will not be joining her since she's allied with Varys who knows LF better than anyone. Instead he exposes the truth surrounding Joffrey's assasination to Tyrion, and that Olenna framed Tyrion and Sansa. He could inform Sansa of this, which would pit the Starks, now in charge of the North and the Vale (and possibly the Riverlands) against Dany and co. While Sansa distrusts him, she now knows the Tyrells were just using her and will hopefully remember Olenna fiddling with her necklace during the wedding. So once the Others invade, Jon and Dany will be reluctant allies rather than happily married.

One dragon dies since historically it isn't impossible and just takes a lot of dedication to bring them down, and the other is taken by Euron who'll hopefully have a bigger role than Doran did. He'll ally with Cersei and marry her, since it's established he wants to be King of Westeros. Bran also wargs a dragon at some point. 

Dany will be hated by the people of Westeros, who also despise Cersei, but prefer her to Dothraki, Ironborn and Unsullied. It'd be beyond ridiculous if all these people with very different skin colors and religions were accepted by a bunch of people who were backing the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant in seasons five and six. In the books, fAegon is prophesied to be loved by the smallfolk, which doesn't look good for Dany.

Once Dany's forces rush the city, Cersei will decide to go out with a bang by igniting the wildfire, killing herself and Dany's men, along with taking out the Iron Throne, ensuring no one else will sit it. Either that or have Dany accidentally ignite the wildfire with Dracarys. The Red Keep was burned down in the HotU vision. 

Basically, it wouldn't be pure good vs. pure evil, with the war being clean and effortless on Dany's part. Instead, she'd lose most of her army with the Night's King gaining more soldiers. Only Drogon would be left of her dragons, and she'd be hated by the smallfolk before redeeming herself in their eyes by fighting against the Others. Unfortunately, I can totally see season 7 being a repeat of Dany in Slaver's Bay.

[FemmyV]

I think/hope Tyrion will be patient enough to wait until the Dornish women are expendable. Either way, pretty much everyone involved has or has had some forgiving to do to be there - Dany included.

[YaddaYadda]

Dany taking KL should be a walk in the park, although I'm hoping she has trouble at sea, but the North should not be a cake walk, and the fight against the others should not be all that easy. I think in the long run, the Dothraki will be a liability. Once they give her the Iron Throne, she should send them back on their way to Essos because I don't think they have any business being in Westeros. Plus they do the things that Dany is dead set against and fought against (with reason), like raping and taking slaves. 

In any case, for anyone to be an effective fighter, they will need different weapons to outfit their fighters, so that's where the main problem is. If every fallen person is risen by the Night King as the battle goes on...the dragons will not need to be taken down, they'll just die of exhaustion.

I could be completely wrong (which I'm super used to) but I'm getting the impression with all the people that seem to be converging towards Northern Ireland that we won't be spending all that much time in the south. 

[anamika]

12 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Needle, to our knowledge, is plain old castle-forged, not Valyrian steel. She can still cut some zombies' eyes out but otherwise, don't know how much damage she can do with it.

I do think we will see Arya and Needle in action, possibly against Wights. In the original outline, Arya ends up North fighting the Others with Needle and I think ultimately that's where she ends up in the current version as well - GRRM just took her on a little detour (That ended up being a long detour) to learn some new skills and maybe become older before meeting up with Jon in the North again.

As for Dany, I am hoping she gets rid of the Lannisters in KL fast and then turns her attention to the more important North. The Lannisters have been squatting in KL from season one and now bloody Cersei is on the throne! That's 6 seasons of them in KL.  No one has been able to budge them from KL, so I am cheering Dany on. I want another house in charge of KL for at least the remaining two seasons before it possible gets dismantled.   Let's get some new blood in there. It will be interesting to see how Dany handles the throne, how Westeros reacts to her and her dragons, how her army of Dothraki and unsullied do in a new land. I suspect Dany herself will become ten times more interesting next season where she can interact with actual characters rather than the mustache twirling masters of slavers bay.

[bunnyblue]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

I do think we will see Arya and Needle in action, possibly against Wights. In the original outline, Arya ends up North fighting the Others with Needle and I think ultimately that's where she ends up in the current version as well

I hope you're right, because out of GRRM's big 5, it's still not clear to me what Arya's role will be in the endgame.  Jon's the warrior, Bran will use his magic, Dany's got her dragons, and Tyrion will probably bring Jon & Dany together (and maybe ride a dragon?), but ninja assassin Arya is just doing her own thing far removed from the other 4. If by the end of S7, Arya's at Winterfell then I can believe she'll put her training to some use in the War for the Dawn, but if she's still wandering the Riverlands then I'll be at a loss as to why she's considered one of the big 5.

[Jazzy24]

5 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

I hope you're right, because out of GRRM's big 5, it's still not clear to me what Arya's role will be in the endgame.  Jon's the warrior, Bran will use his magic, Dany's got her dragons, and Tyrion will probably bring Jon & Dany together (and maybe ride a dragon?), but ninja assassin Arya is just doing her own thing far removed from the other 4. If by the end of S7, Arya's at Winterfell then I can believe she'll put her training to some use in the War for the Dawn, but if she's still wandering the Riverlands then I'll be at a loss as to why she's considered one of the big 5.

I read somewhere that Arya is GRRM's wife favorite character so I think that might play into why she's considered one of the big 5 or whatever it's called. 

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

I read somewhere that Arya is GRRM's wife favorite character so I think that might play into why she's considered one of the big 5 or whatever it's called. 

Arya was a main character from the very first sketch GRRM made of the series.

To an extent I agree that her role in the fight against the Others is a bit less obvious, but in the books, at least, she's going to be getting that huge wolfpack.  Whether that got the budgetary axe on the show, I don't know.

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, SeanC said:

but in the books, at least, she's going to be getting that huge wolfpack.

Maybe in the show she will get a "human wolfpack".

Edited July 31, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[arjumand]

16 hours ago, anamika said:

I do think we will see Arya and Needle in action, possibly against Wights. In the original outline, Arya ends up North fighting the Others with Needle and I think ultimately that's where she ends up in the current version as well - GRRM just took her on a little detour (That ended up being a long detour) to learn some new skills and maybe become older before meeting up with Jon in the North again.

As Needle isn't Valyrian steel, it will be pretty useless against White Walkers, and Wights will keep fighting, even with bits chopped off (fire is the real weapon here) - but I've read a couple of theories stating that Arya will end up with Dark Sister, the famous Targaryen sword wielded by the Visenya. One of its characteristics was that its 'slender blade was designed for a woman's hand', so it should be easy enough for her to get used to.

Now, how she's going to get it is another question - it was last seen in the hands of Brynden Rivers, who ended up being the Bloodraven, but who before that was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Maybe the sword is at Castle Black?

One thing Jon needs to do is start tracking down any Valyrian steel swords left in Westeros - while dragonglass works against the White Walkers, it's useless against Wights, and Valyrian steel can deal with both.

[YaddaYadda]

5 hours ago, arjumand said:

One thing Jon needs to do is start tracking down any Valyrian steel swords left in Westeros - while dragonglass works against the White Walkers, it's useless against Wights, and Valyrian steel can deal with both.

So I've been wondering about the relationship between the Wights and the White Walkers. Since the White Walkers raise the Wights, does that mean that taking out all the White Walkers or the Night King more precisely would end the Wights since the magic that rose them in the first place would be gone?

About Dark Sister though, Brynden Rivers was the last one to have the sword. I don't know if it's late in the game for them to introduce Dark Sister and Blackfyre, but I've been wondering if the sword that Meera grabbed when they fled the cave after the WW's attack was not Dark Sister. I tend to not keep track of props, so I'll be perfectly honest and say that I don't even know if Meera ever had a sword on her this whole time. Her killing a WW with the sword instead of the dragon glass might have been neat, because another Valyrian sword.

Edited July 31, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[anamika]

I was disappointed when Brienne did not mention to either Jon or Sansa that her sword was formerly Ice. And even more disappointed when she tried to return it to Jaime.

Not sure about Dark Sister, but if Arya heads south to finish off the last name on her list (Cersei) she may get her hand on Widow's Wail. It will be nice if at least one of the Starks get their hands on Ice. But I do think that Needle will end up being important in some way.

49 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

About Dark Sister though, Brynden Rivers was the last one to have the sword. I don't know if it's late in the game for them to introduce Dark Sister and Blackfyre, but I've been wondering if the sword that Meera grabbed when they fled the cave after the WW's attack was not Dark Sister. I tend to not keep track of props, so I'll be perfectly honest and say that I don't even know if Meera ever had a sword on her this whole time. Her killing a WW with the sword instead of the dragon glass might have been neat, because another Valyrian sword.

I would like to think that you are right and that Meera did grab Dark Sister! In the original outline, Bran and Arya travel beyond the wall and Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle and their direwolves take on the Others and their wights to survive. In this version, Meera seems to have taken that aspect of Arya's story - she could end up with a Valyrian steel sword.

Plus there are Dany's dragons heading to Westeros. These swords are dragon forged after all and I am guessing Sam is going to discover a way to make new VS swords in the Citadel.

Edited July 31, 2016 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

Probably in the minority, but I'd just hate for everyone to end up with a Valyrian sword/dagger and whatever else Valyrian just because it's supposed to be such a rare thing now. Let's just mine Dragonstone and make a whole bunch of weapons with that. At this point, I'd be surprised if they introduce Dark Sister and Blackfyre in the series. I don't think they were ever mentioned on the show, but I could be wrong. I've always sort of wondered about Jorah's reaction to seeing Longclaw with Jon if those 2 ever crossed paths since the swords are passed down within the family, and surely one of the Mormont women would have been worthy of it. 

It always seemed like a massive plot point to me for Jorah to trust Jon and believe in him right off the bat because his father wouldn't have entrusted something that had been in his family for generations to just anyone, especially someone who is no blood relation to the Mormonts.

[arjumand]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

I was disappointed when Brienne did not mention to either Jon or Sansa that her sword was formerly Ice. And even more disappointed when she tried to return it to Jaime.

Not sure about Dark Sister, but if Arya heads south to finish off the last name on her list (Cersei) she may get her hand on Widow's Wail. It will be nice if at least one of the Starks get their hands on Ice. But I do think that Needle will end up being important in some way.

I would like to think that you are right and that Meera did grab Dark Sister! In the original outline, Bran and Arya travel beyond the wall and Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle and their direwolves take on the Others and their wights to survive. In this version, Meera seems to have taken that aspect of Arya's story - she could end up with a Valyrian steel sword.

Plus there are Dany's dragons heading to Westeros. These swords are dragon forged after all and I am guessing Sam is going to discover a way to make new VS swords in the Citadel.

The thing about Brienne is that she is massively, massively in love with Jaime. And while I'd love for the sword to be returned to the Starks, or at least be altered somewhat, so that gaudy Lannister lion pommel doesn't get her into any more trouble (is it canon or fanon that people call her the 'Kingslayer's whore'?), there is no way Brienne could do that. It's the only thing she has of Jaime's.

Re. Meera and Dark Sister - I've watched that scene again, more carefully this time. While Meera does grab a sword from the entrance to the cave and uses it to dispatch a wight, when the White Walker comes in, she throws a spear with a dragonglass head to kill him (which makes a lot of sense - spear and net are kind of her things).

So it's inconclusive, I guess. I think the sword she picked up was left behind in the cave.

I know it seems to be too late to introduce new weapons, but would they be new? We've heard about Valyrian steel since season 1, so how about in Season 7 we're shown a sequence in which a Valyrian steel sword is forged, like we saw when they split up Ice into two swords? It could be a great case of dramatic irony, with the audience knowing how the key weapon is made, but none of the characters do.

[benteen]

Quote

At the risk of sounding like a Debbie Downer, I can imagine the show going down the predictable route, with Dany winning effortlessly and getting to crowd surf on a bunch of commoners

The thought of Dany crowd surfing among the commoners and peasants of Westeros makes me laugh.  God, that crow-surfing scene at the end of Season 3 may me laugh.

[kcbuckeye2]

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 8:07 PM, OhOkayWhat said:

Maybe in the show she will get a "human wolfpack".

Like this?

 

[Chris24601]

I don't think the story needs more Valyrian steel weapons. They're really only needed to parry the weapons of the Walkers themselves in close combat. They're no better than ordinary weapons against wights (fire is the real weapon against them) and obsidian can kill a Walker just as well as the steel can.

In others words, when it comes to a battle you'd really only need the people going up against the White Walkers themselves in melee to have Valyrian steel. There's already Longclaw, Oathkeeper and the Tarly family sword in direct play and if they really need a few extra then Widow's Wail is probably in the Red Keep and Littlefinger's dagger is out there somewhere as well.

Jon, Brienne, Tormund and Meera are probably the only named characters likely to go up against the Night King if it came to a grand finale battle. Jon and Brienne already have Valyrian steel and Meera would probably be better served with obsidian tipped arrows. That leaves the delicious irony of Tormund wielding the Tarly family blade against the White Walkers and you've got the main named characters covered. Anyone else can make do with an obsidian tipped spear or arrows, though someone unexpected killing a Walker with Littlefinger's knife would be pretty fitting as well (my money would be on Arya taking a Walker out via a backstab with it).

So there's no need to bring in any named weapons that we've not seen before at this stage because anyone who'd really need one from a storytelling perspective will already have one.

All the theorizing on book elements like Dark Sister really just serve to highlight that GRRM is almost the anti-Chekov... prone to including details that have nothing to do with the main plot of the story for their own sake (i.e. because its a world-building detail not a plot detail) and thereby convincing everyone that the main plot's resolution will be fifty times more complex than it actually will be (the only trick is figuring out which are actually meant to be plot details and which are only world-building details).

[benteen]

I've felt for a while that Tormund would likely be wielding Heartsbane on the show, possibly alongside Brienne wielding Oathkeeper.  Tormund Heartsbane has a nice ring to it.

[YaddaYadda]

22 minutes ago, benteen said:

I've felt for a while that Tormund would likely be wielding Heartsbane on the show, possibly alongside Brienne wielding Oathkeeper.  Tormund Heartsbane has a nice ring to it.

That is sure to give the delightful Lord Tarly a heart attack.

[FemmyV]

In other forums I've read talk of a possible  MacGuffin in King's Landing, necessary for dealing with the Others. Seems like an interesting theory that would be Widow's Wail, especially now that Goff's body/tomb has, no doubt, been blown to bits and in the rubble. 

Along those lines, who wouldn't be surprised if it turned put that Ice was even more special a sword than anyone ever thought, and in need of reforging? Considering the care that was taken in the sequence where Tywin destroyed it.

Edited August 2, 2016 by FemmyV

[paigow]

18 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

All the theorizing on book elements like Dark Sister really just serve to highlight that GRRM is almost the anti-Chekov... 

Martin's Sword: Will kill someone within 30 years of initial appearance

[mac123x]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 7:47 AM, YaddaYadda said:

So I've been wondering about the relationship between the Wights and the White Walkers. Since the White Walkers raise the Wights, does that mean that taking out all the White Walkers or the Night King more precisely would end the Wights since the magic that rose them in the first place would be gone?

It's possible that the show is setting that up.  We saw the vision of the CotF creating the Night King, so they might go for a final showdown between the Night King and X (Jon, Arya, Dany, Hot Pie, whoever).  Night King dies, all the wights and other Others hit the ground like bags of wet cement. 

 

I kinda don't like that idea though.  It's very Deus ex Machinaesque, and I've seen it in too many other stories.  Browsing TvTropes, it looks like the phrase I'm looking for is Keystone Army. 

A Keystone Army is an invasion force or army that's seemingly unstoppable, except for one particular weakness in the form of a well protected but very fragile component. It can be an individual soldier, an object or whatever, but if you destroy or tamper with it, the entire army is immediately disabled. This plot device is handy as it allows a handful of heroes to win the war without having to depict them fighting off the entire enemy force. Just a daring raid on the enemy's stronghold and BAM! Evil is defeated. It also allows otherwise unstoppable foes to be suddenly stopped dead in their tracks.

General forms include having the MacGuffin-weakness be the Hive Queen of an enemy Hive Mind, the sole source of all the enemies' powers, or the lone connection to Another Dimension. Just like a real keystone, once it's destroyed, the rest falls apart.

[bunnyblue]

If Arya makes it to Winterfell in S7, something I really want to see is her wearing the Stark armor, like Ned's, Jon's, and Robb's. If Sansa was able to whip up a new dress for herself and 2 Stark cloaks while at Castle Black, I imagine altering some Stark armor to fit Arya would be a snap. I think that would also be a great way to break the ice between the sisters. If Arya's supposed to play a role in defending the realm, it'd make sense that she'd wear her family's garb rather than the dirty rags she's been wearing for years. Hell, I want to see Bran wearing the Stark colors too, even if he doesn't fight. Please make this happen, GOT.

[shortpplfedup]

It just occured to me that Dan has left one slave city unfreed: Volantis.

[SeanC]

9 hours ago, shortpplfedup said:

It just occured to me that Dan has left one slave city unfreed: Volantis.

One of the members of the bad guy council Dany defeated in 509 was from Volantis.  I think we're meant to assume that they freed their slaves.

[Hecate7]

On 7/21/2016 at 10:07 PM, Katsullivan said:

Or to quote Edmund Burke and Martin King Jnr: all that is required for evil to prosper is for good people to stand by and do nothing. Those are the consequences of Sansa's cowardice - being complicit in evil, and it led to an innocent direwolf being murdered because Sansa didn't want to compromise her dreams of being a fairy-tale princess. 

That's not my takeaway. ALL of the adults knew the truth, but didn't care. So Sansa speaking up would not have made any difference at all, except that someone would have said that both Ned's daughters being liars must take after their mother. The engagement would have still gone forward--it was Robert's idea, not Joffrey's. Sansa didn't speak out, because she could sense that there was something in the air more "important" than the truth. A wolf was going to be lost that day no matter what choice Sansa made.

[SeanC]

Sophie said she just got the Season 7 scripts, which fits, since they're evidently beginning filming around the end of the month.

[SeanC]

Speak of the Devil, more casting information.

Quote

General, in the age range 40 – 55. He’s a senior military officer, and they’re looking for a white actor who uses the British RP accent. The actor is needed for the week of September 6th.

Speculation: this is a minion for Cersei.

Quote

Priest, in his 60’s. He’s a venerable priest with moral authority and gravitas. The show is seeking a white actor, using an RP accent, with characterful face for this part. He’s scheduled to shoot one week, from September 22nd.

Speculation: maybe Dany's coronation?

Quote

Warrior, in the 35 – 45 age range. The character is a tough-looking bruiser with the attack skills of a pit bull, and the actor needs to be great at fighting. He has a “considerable” amount of dialogue as well. It’s described as an “excellent part for a top-end actor.” Helpful clues in the description? We know it’s not a Dothraki character as the actor for the role is required to be white, and they’re asking for a neutral and non-posh English accent. This role is currently scheduled to shoot across October.

Quote

Gate Guard, in his 20’s. The character is described as a “Confident, characterful, straight-talking Northern lad with a great face to play across a very excellent series of scenes.”  They’re looking someone with wit, timing, and charisma. He’s currently scheduled to film between mid-October and mid-November.

Quote

City Guard, in his 30’s. The show is casting for a city guard who intercepts a suspicious-looking person on his nightly patrol. They require an RP accent for this one. He’s set to shoot for a week in mid-October.

Quote

Merchant, in his 40’s. The merchant appears at an inn during a busy evening. They’re seeking a character actor, for a non-combatant role. His appearance is more open, including ethnicity/race. That suggests a character appearing somewhere in Essos- or a place we’ve never been before, since Daenerys is now on the move. This part is scheduled to shoot the first week of November.

Quote

Lovely Lady. Ah yes, what would Game of Thrones be without its courtesans and nudity. The show is casting for an attractive young courtesan who is sure of her own mind. It’s described as a “good speaking part” and casting notes that full nudity is required for the role. Similar to the merchant, the lovely lady’s physical appearance is open, indicating this role is for somewhere on Essos, or at a new location. She’s scheduled to shoot for one week in early October.

Another trip to a brothel.  And possibly in a non-Westerosi location.

Quote

Young Lord in his late 20’s. He’s a tall, handsome young lord, and the show is looking for a white actor who uses the RP accent. He’s scheduled to shoot in the week commencing September 20th.

This character's filming time mostly overlaps with the Priest's, so it's possible they're involved in the same stuff.

Quote

Lieutenant, in his 20’s. The character is described as an athletic, physically fit, and disciplined warrior. Appearance-wise, they’re looking for someone not white, with Middle Eastern descent mentioned. This bears the hallmarks of a Dothraki character description. He’s set to shoot several days across three weeks, between mid-September and mid-November.

Token Dothraki for Dany's retinue.

Edited August 18, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

I like the spec in the WOTW comments section that the "gate guard" is likely at Winterfell, since it seems that location will see a lot of comings and goings.

I don't recall seeing a casting call for this show that specified the RP accent. KL? The Reach? Oldtown?

Assuming the courtesan is associated with Dany's storyline, the courtesan will probably be interacting with Tyrion, although Yara's also a possibility, I guess.