Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

To be fair, though, she was quoting Tyrion. He said the exact same thing to her, long ago.

No, Tyrion said that to Shae.

[Haleth]

Have the actors even seen scripts yet?  If they've been told there will be a conflict between Sansa and Jon they may be unaware of how it plays out.  The conflict may last a whole episode and may be over some minor issue.  Yeah, Sophie's direction has been that she has trust issues, but Sansa can't be dumb enough to side with LF again.  So much for character development if she does.

[benteen]

I wouldn't have an issue with Sansa working with LF is she was clearly WORKING him.  But I've never seen any evidence of that in the past two seasons.

[Chris24601]

I don't believe the scripts have even been written yet at this stage so the actors are guessing almost as much as we are.

Neither Sophie nor Kit have displayed any particularly deep or accurate insights into their characters or stories in the past so giving their guesses about what's coming up any more weight than a well-read fanboy is probably a mistake.

My hunch is they get about the same level of conflict as the leads in a romantic drama would have because I think that's basically what their story is going to be once you strip it down.

Two things I think are likely in that regard are, first, that the conflict will center around Jon and Sansa not really getting each other with further emphasis that they were NOT close at all as children and are only now, as adults, actually getting to know the other (i.e. downplay the Westermarck effect for the audience).

The second is I think it likely that there will be a scene between Sansa and Robin in the first half of the season where the audience is reminded both that they are cousins and that plans had been made for them to marry, but that a reason other than being cousins will be presented for why this will not come to pass (i.e. remind the audience that cousin marriage is a regular occurance in Westeros).

Both of the above would serve as groundwork, along with a conflict with Littlefinger that cannot be resolved if they're siblings, for  the third act twist/reveal of Jon and Sansa being cousins as a way out of what Littlefinger has planned with the resolution being a wedding on the eve of war (mirroring Ned and Cat) to both ease the tensions of the Northern Lords and to increase the stakes for Jon.

Littlefinger's role in all of this is probably to be the Heathcliff type figure (i.e. the primary complication to be overcome) whose schemes and obsessions ultimately lead to his own downfall.

[sunflower]

Quote

the third act twist/reveal of Jon and Sansa being cousins as a way out of what Littlefinger has planned with the resolution being a wedding on the eve of war (mirroring Ned and Cat) to both ease the tensions of the Northern Lords and to increase the stakes for Jon.

I could see this happening with the season ending with Jon and Sansa marrying.  Maybe D&D are trying to hide this twist in plain sight, with all these interview mentions of conflict between the two leading to a break, when really it's leading to a marriage.  also, everyone assumes it's going to be Dany, when it's really Sansa he marries.  MY only problem is if Jon/Sansa happens in the books, how do they deal with Tyrion as Sansa still being married to him is more of a problem than in the show?  Can a King, in the North, set aside a marriage?  That's the only reason the marriage happening gives me pause.  Otherwise, it seems like an organic story twist. 

Edited July 2, 2016 by sunflower

[Advance35]

Quote

Neither Sophie nor Kit have displayed any particularly deep or accurate insights into their characters or stories in the past so giving their guesses about what's coming up any more weight than a well-read fanboy is probably a mistake.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. LOL and I like both Kit and Sophie.  But sometimes you listen to them both and go "What?"

[sunflower]

What's annoying about the actor/creator comments is it's not on screen.  I don't like it if Sansa feels this way about Jon (where's my credit?), but put it on screen at least.  All they needed to do was have maybe 2 convos with Jon/Sansa arguing or have him be a tad pissed that she lied by omission about LF/Knights of the Vale.  It's so frustrating, since this show and being subtle have parted ways since they've moved past the books.  What are they telling us by what they're showing?  I don't know when it comes to Jon and Sansa.  I mean, this is a show that minimized Jon's resurrection and the threat of the WW.  Jon is so vague about it to the Northern Houses and Sansa, it's unclear if they really understand it aside from the little She-Bear.  The WW threat is endgame, and we're almost there, hey show, how 'bout acting like it?  Sigh x 9.

Example: Davos just knowing the lead WW's name, the Night King, without any connective tissue scene between him and Jon?  What are they, Samwell Tarlys reading every book for the backstory?  At least, GRRM will get into it, if we ever see the next book in our lifetimes?  I love this story, show and book, but ugh!!

Edited July 2, 2016 by sunflower

[BooBear]

26 minutes ago, sunflower said:

I could see this happening with the season ending with Jon and Sansa marrying.  Maybe D&D are trying to hide this twist in plain sight, with all these interview mentions of conflict between the two leading to a break, when really it's leading to a marriage.  also, everyone assumes it's going to be Dany, when it's really Sansa he marries.  MY only problem is if Jon/Sansa happens in the books, how do they deal with Tyrion as Sansa still being married to him is more of a problem than in the show?  Can a King, in the North, set aside a marriage?  That's the only reason the marriage happening gives me pause.  Otherwise, it seems like an organic story twist. 

I had been actually thinking about it and at first, I had thought that Dany was headed straight for Kings Landing but, I think "taking out Cerci and "breaking the wheel" has to be end game.  So my thinking is that somehow Dany has to align with Jon first take out the white walkers and then come for Cerci.  The white walkers are a threat but I am not emotionally invested in their defeat. I am emotionally invested in seeing Cersi get taken out by Dany. Also right now Cerci is so weak, they need time for her to get some power to really be a fight as is Dany too powerful. Something has to distract Dany / or delay her. Not sure what that would be but in the meantime...So this is where Sansa and Tyrion come in... Sansa will want to get married and she will ask Tyrion for some version of an annulment.  This will lead to Danny taking a north detour.. aligning with the north -- taking out the white walkers -- and then coming for Cersi.  Danny isn't even aware of the white walkers maybe once she sees the threat she will chose that fight first.

Other notes on why Jon and Sansa will get married. Sansa, red head. Can argue either Jon sees his first love in Sansa or saw Sansa in his first love. Sansa is the only member of the stark family that really kept Jon at arms length for most of her life.  They were not close.  Sansa's story is kind of at an end. She got her revenge and she is back at Winterfell as the Lady of the castle. The only thing for her to do is have children. Who else is around for that?  If they had presented anyone --- at all --- who could be an option maybe but, they so haven't.

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

She got her revenge and she is back at Winterfell as the Lady of the castle. The only thing for her to do is have children. Who else is around for that?  If they had presented anyone --- at all --- who could be an option maybe but, they so haven't.

She hasn't gotten all of her revenge since Cersei is still around.  Cersei does deserve some sort of credit for uniting all sorts of people against her. 

At the very least Sansa can try to be a de facto Hand of the King.  If she really thinks Jon is a naive idiot then someone has to help him to deal with the schemers. 

Hopefully they also clarify the exact relationship between the Vale and Jon.  Did the Vale lords join the North?  That doesn't strike me as something they should be able to do without Robin's consent.  But if they're still separate but allies it didn't make sense for them to join the King in the North chant.  Now I'm sure they strongly dislike Robin (a lunatic child) and can't stand Littlefinger but that's a big leap.

The same ambiguity existed when Robb was around.  He was obviously allied with the Tully forces but he also explicitly told Edmure that he was fighting for the North and that he didn't care about Harrenhal (yet was still able to unilaterally give it to the Freys).  I also don't remember anyone calling him King of the Trident.

[kittykat]

In the books at least when Robb and Tyrion were exchanging negotiations, Robb did include the Riverlands as part of what he wanted annexed as his kingdom.

I would think the only way the Vale will stay strong with the North is a marriage agreement between Sansa/Robin.  I could see Sansa "playing" Littlefinger to keep him loyal but pulling a long con and always staying on Jon's side.

As far as who could be Hand.  I would like to see it be Davos but I'm guessing the Northerners might take offense if an outsider (in their eyes) is promoted to #2 in the North.  Sansa would be a good choice since she could use her experience in KL and the Vale but chances are it will be a political appt like Glover or Manderley to solidify allegiances.

That being said I'm worried Jon is going to fall into the same trap as Ned and believe that honor rules all, which is why he needs Sansa (and to an extent LF) to be behind the scenes doing the dirty work to keep him in power.  Cersei will be none too pleased when she learns that the Starks are back in power and will likely turn her attention the the North and want to engage.  This is where I'm thinking Jaime learns of the WW threat and the Lannister breach may happen.

[Umbelina]

So, do you guys think that video above was legit, or a hoax?

I guess it could be film from way back during the ship battles before Tyrion used the wildfire, but it didn't look familiar to me.  ?

[AGuyToo]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

So, do you guys think that video above was legit, or a hoax?

I guess it could be film from way back during the ship battles before Tyrion used the wildfire, but it didn't look familiar to me.  ?

It looks legit. It's way too elaborate to be a hoax, and I also didn't recognize it from an earlier episode. And GoT does film in Croatia.

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

The same ambiguity existed when Robb was around.  He was obviously allied with the Tully forces but he also explicitly told Edmure that he was fighting for the North and that he didn't care about Harrenhal (yet was still able to unilaterally give it to the Freys).  I also don't remember anyone calling him King of the Trident.

I think "inconsistency" is a better word than "ambiguity".  The Blackfish outright reprimands Edmure on speaking to Robb "don't call him nephew, he's your king", so it seems like he was supposed to be claiming the Riverlands, even though there's a bunch of other times where, as you point out, he doesn't seem concerned about them at all.

[bluvelvet]

I think it would be a good twist if Dany ended up heading North and dealing with the WW before heading to Kings Landing. That being said, I just don't see the Dothraki and the Unsullied surviving a winter in the North. Actually Dany herself may have an issue since she is a child of fire. Even if they were to get appropriate clothing (which I doubt they have on the boats) they would still probably die off from frostbite because they don't know how to protect against that type of cold.  I do agree that something/someone will delay the Dany and Cersei face-off. What that may be I don't know, right now Danys forces far outnumber and out weigh Cersei's so it would be a cakewalk. 

As for Jaime, I think this event will break him from Cersei, it may not happen right away but it may be gradual over the course of next season. As such when the Cersei/Dany face off, I think Jaime will not back Cersei. I do hope they show him walking through KL and seeing the destruction caused by Cersei and harmed many innocents.  I am also in the camp that Jaime will die by the end of the series but he will go out making an heroic sacrifice. Hopefully he doesn't kill himself over Cersei but dies a noble death. 

What inclines me to speculate about a Jon/Sansa endgame is based on what I saw on screen. They catapulted Sansa in Jon's orbit fairly early in the season and while there may be minor conflicts, they have been working as a unit.   I am also going to say I think the forehead kiss was included for a reason, we have seen very few kisses of true affection in this entire series and  Jon/Sansa have never been close. Even with the sibling reunion, working together for a common goal, I don't see Jon suddenly becoming comfortable enough with Sansa to give such a  display of affection.  I can see a Jon/Sansa marriage for political reasons with Jon having an issue with that course of action because he's well *Jon*/Jaeharys while Sansa due to her experiences  would be a lot more pragmatic.  Then again Sansa could end up never marrying (not that I would blame her) or marrying Robyn Arryn, because in this world, nothing ever goes as expected (RIP Shireen, I thought Stannis would stop it at the last minute). 

Edited July 3, 2016 by bluvelvet

[Love]

A bit of a change of topic, but something I was thinking about...It's been about 4 years since I've read the books.  I think it was in the last book but I seem to remember something about Cersei flipping out a little bit when she found out that Jon had become LC of the Night's Watch.  Am I wrong in remembering that she wanted to have him killed?  Since that was never addressed on the show, I wonder if now that he is the Northern King vs her Southern Queen, it will be. 

Edited July 2, 2016 by Love
Hit reply too early.

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Love said:

A bit of a change of topic, but something I was thinking about...It's been about 4 years since I've read the books.  I think it was in the last book but I seem to remember something about Cersei flipping out a little bit when she found out that Jon had become LC of the Night's Watch.  Am I wrong in remembering that she wanted to have him killed?  Since that was never addressed on the show, I wonder if now that he is the Northern King vs her Southern Queen, it will be. 

That was in Feast for Crows. When the Night's Watch sends correspondence saying they need people at the wall, Cersei has a cow, and wants to have Jon removed, and Qyburn tells her they should send 100 men to the Wall, and have them murder Jon instead of having the crown outright remove him.

Then Cersei got to go on her walk of shame so it never happened.

1 hour ago, bluvelvet said:

I think it would be a good twist if Dany ended up heading North and dealing with the WW before heading to Kings Landing. That being said, I just don't see the Dothraki and the Unsullied surviving a winter in the North. Actually Dany herself may have an issue since she is a child of fire. Even if they were to get appropriate clothing (which I doubt they have on the boats) they would still probably die off from frostbite because they don't know how to protect against that type of cold.  I do agree that something/someone will delay the Dany and Cersei face-off. What that may be I don't know, right now Danys forces far outnumber and out weigh Cersei's so it would be a cakewalk. 

I'm thinking that she will arrive in Storm's End when she gets to Westeros finally. It's the place that makes the most sense. 

However this thing plays out, I'd like her to be aware of what's going on in the North, and for a replay of that scene from her vision when she's walking in the destroyed throne room, and it's snowing. I want that to happen in real time. I'm assuming that there will be some back and forth communication going between her and Jon, or Tyrion and Jon. 

I don't know that there's anything in the world that will convince her that she needs to go north before she heads south. I'm just glad she's finally going to Westeros. 

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, bluvelvet said:

I think it would be a good twist if Dany ended up heading North and dealing with the WW before heading to Kings Landing. That being said, I just don't see the Dothraki and the Unsullied surviving a winter in the North. Actually Dany herself may have an issue since she is a child of fire. Even if they were to get appropriate clothing (which I doubt they have on the boats) they would still probably die off from frostbite because they don't know how to protect against that type of cold.  I do agree that something/someone will delay the Dany and Cersei face-off. What that may be I don't know, right now Danys forces far outnumber and out weigh Cersei's so it would be a cakewalk. 

I do agree but since Dany's dragons are the biggest thing, I could see a scanario whereby Dany comes in at the last second and saves the day with the dragons (perhaps losing one or two in the battle and weakening her force). Or she could lose some of her forces in the cold. Only then would she need to team up with Jon to overcome Cerci.  Also it would solve another problem with Dany, everything has been (except for her first year) way too easy for her. She needs some real adversity getting her rear kicked by something that she didn't expect and putting her dream in doubt could give her that eye of the tiger.

On the after the thrones show they suggested Dany and Jamie as a couple. I know everyone balked at that because Jamie killed her dad but Dany knows he had no choice and that her dad was insane.  Plus Dany does have really blonde hair.  I could see them meeting via Tyrion or Brianne who could both attest to Dany that he was a reformed guy from his youth.

[SimoneS]

No way that I see Daenerys marrying Jaime. Why would she? Aside from him murdering her father, there is no political gain from her marrying a broke Lannister. If there isn't a Tyrell distance cousin and heir or another heir from a main family for her to marry, I think that she will not end up marrying anyone. There will be no need for her to marry when she finds out that Jon is her nephew. If he isn't legitimate, she will legitimatize him and name him her heir and the pressure will be on him to marry and produce children to continue the Targaryen line.

[arjumand]

9 hours ago, SimoneS said:

No way that I see Daenerys marrying Jaime. Why would she? Aside from him murdering her father, there is no political gain from her marrying a broke Lannister. If there isn't a Tyrell distance cousin and heir or another heir from a main family for her to marry, I think that she will not end up marrying anyone. There will be no need for her to marry when she finds out that Jon is her nephew. If he isn't legitimate, she will legitimatize him and name him her heir and the pressure will be on him to marry and produce children to continue the Targaryen line.

Yeah, I tend to see Dany's words to Daario as a way of letting him down easy, because you can't take the Second Sons to Westeros for other reasons (I actually wish she'd left the Dothraki behind, too).

Re. marrying Jaime, or any Lannister: no. Jaime killed her daddy and Jaime's father tried to kill her and her brother countless times. And his redemption is still arguable - it all depends how he's going to react to Cersei's clusterfuck next season.

Also, she's had direct experience of how a marriage to secure a city / kingdom goes - when she married that Mereen guy it helped not at all. And she got herself out of the Dosh Khaleen and the risk of Dothraki gangbang by herself, with no husband, and not even any dragons. I think she's gonna like the feeling of doing things on her own, and she believes the prophecy that she will never any more children.

She's going to take over first, worry about the succession later.

[operakatz]

On 6/29/2016 at 9:19 PM, bluvelvet said:

If Jon has a Targaryen first name, that implies that Rhaegar and Lyanna discussed and came up with a name together. If Lyanna was abducted and raped, I don't see her giving her son a Targaryen first name. 

We have had breadcrumbs throughout series that Rhaegar and Lyanna was a mutual love affair and that Robert is who spun it as abduction/rape. Even Oberyn didn't use those terms when referring briefly to it in 4x01 when telling Tyrion Rhaegar "left Elia for another woman." So I would not be at all surprised if they'd discussed names for the baby. In the 6x10 Bran flashback in the ToJ, it just doesn't seem to be a scenario of a traumatized abducted/raped woman. I assume D&D just are trying to draw out the mystery a bit more...

[bluvelvet]

8 minutes ago, operakatz said:

We have had breadcrumbs throughout series that Rhaegar and Lyanna was a mutual love affair and that Robert is who spun it as abduction/rape. Even Oberyn didn't use those terms when referring briefly to it in 4x01 when telling Tyrion Rhaegar "left Elia for another woman." So I would not be at all surprised if they'd discussed names for the baby. In the 6x10 Bran flashback in the ToJ, it just doesn't seem to be a scenario of a traumatized abducted/raped woman. I assume D&D just are trying to draw out the mystery a bit more...

I had forgotten about that conversation. You're right Oberyn did put it in those terms, I assume Elia may have communicated with Oberyn when Rhaegar/Lyanna occurred. This convinces me even more that Jon will be legitimate, I think plural wives. 

[WearyTraveler]

On ‎29‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 8:41 AM, ElizaD said:

HBO confirmed that Rhaegar is the father but it doesn't seem to be clear to non-readers. Will the show cast Rhaegar, or simply have Bran explain things when he leaves the Wall and meets Jon, or wait until Jon meets Dany's dragons and everyone's shocked that they really really like him? I'd guess that the dragon shock twist will be the moment when R+L=J is explicitly spelled out, but I'd love to see the Lyanna actress brought back for a quick vision with Rhaegar.

I don't understand how people can even think that Robert is Jon's father. Is it only because Jon has dark hair? Because nothing in the show has even hinted at that possibility.  I met a non reader a while ago that told me he thought Jon was Robert's son, I asked him three questions:

1) Do you think Robert loved Lyana?

"Yes"

2) Then, why would Ned hide the truth about Jon's parents from Robert?

"....... (no answer)"

3) Wouldn't Robert love a son given to him by the woman he loved?

"....... (no answer)"

"....... OH!!!!"

"He's Rhaegar's son!!!!"

ME (not wanting to completely spoil the guy): Maybe

Edited July 4, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[YaddaYadda]

Especially the last part. Why would Ned ever want to keep Jon from his real father? Why would Lyanna think Robert would kill his own son? I'd think he would have been happy to have a child by her since he loved her. He said she left a hole behind that 7 Kingdoms couldn't fill. I have a friend who thought it was Robert. 

Me: What?! Noooo! Rhaegar is the father.

Friend: Who is Rhaegar now?

Me: The crown prince, the guy who died at the Battle of the Trident? The one who allegedly kidnapped Lyanna. The one Sansa and Little Finger were talking about in the crypt. The one Robert said he killed in his dreams every night back in season 1? Dany's brother? The one Barristan Selmy was telling her about.

Friend:... but he hasn't been on the show. Does he matter that much if he hasn't been on the show?

Me: Of course he matters! He's Jon's father! He was a Targaryen! That makes Jon...you know, just read the fucking books. Or watch a YouTube video recap or something.

[Knuckles]

On July 2, 2016 at 3:54 PM, kittykat said:

As far as who could be Hand.  I would like to see it be Davos but I'm guessing the Northerners might take offense if an outsider (in their eyes) is promoted to #2 in the North.  Sansa would be a good choice

Lyanna Mormont would be a great choice. But, Jon needs Sansa to have an active and important role to keep her onside, and away from considering the toxic suggestions of Littlefinger. Even smarter move, convince Lyanna to agree to a marriage with Robyn...that would keep the Vale on Jon's side, and Lyanna could manage Robyn, and even Lord Royce would be cool with that. For Lyanna's sake, just make it an official engagement...the Mormont women are an independent crew, who often don't name the fathers of their offspring, let alone marry. Maege was an example of that.  One of her daughters was known as the she-bear...supposedly could turn herself into a bear at will. Maybe she was Tormund's hook-up.

[bluvelvet]

So I have a totally off the wall speculation and I don't know why this occurred to me today. Suppose Robert knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped but left him for someone she loved but he lied about it to call the banners and get Ned involved. Over the years he may have convinced himself that was the truth.  I don't think Robert was such an upstanding guy, Lyanna knew Robert would kill baby Jon, Ned knew Robert would kill  Joffrey/Myrcella/Tommen if he found out the truth hence Ned giving Cersei the warning to get out of dodge.

If Lyanna was a strong willed personality I can see her communicating with Robert to give him the truth versus leaving him high and dry, especially if she had the Stark sense of honor.  I only suggest this because of Oberyns " he left my sister for another woman" and LF's "Rhaegar chose your aunt" and we also have the story of Rhaegar bypassing his wife to give Lyanna flowers in a public event.

[Knuckles]

26 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

Suppose Robert knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped but left him for someone she loved but he lied about it to call the banners and get Ned involved.

Now that is interesting. And that Lyanna, with the Stark sense of honor, might have left Robert a message. I doubt in this scenario she would tell him directly...he had a terrible temper.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

So I have a totally off the wall speculation and I don't know why this occurred to me today. Suppose Robert knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped but left him for someone she loved but he lied about it to call the banners and get Ned involved. Over the years he may have convinced himself that was the truth.  I don't think Robert was such an upstanding guy, Lyanna knew Robert would kill baby Jon, Ned knew Robert would kill  Joffrey/Myrcella/Tommen if he found out the truth hence Ned giving Cersei the warning to get out of dodge.

If Lyanna was a strong willed personality I can see her communicating with Robert to give him the truth versus leaving him high and dry, especially if she had the Stark sense of honor.  I only suggest this because of Oberyns " he left my sister for another woman" and LF's "Rhaegar chose your aunt" and we also have the story of Rhaegar bypassing his wife to give Lyanna flowers in a public event.

Robert was nowhere near Lyanna at the time of her abduction (he was at the Eyrie).  In any event, Ned and Robert rebelled because Aerys ordered their executions (and had already executed Ned's father and brother, among others), not because (or solely because) Rhaegar (was thought to have) abducted Lyanna.

[SimoneS]

No way do I see Jon and Sansa happening as a couple on the show. That is pure fan fiction. I think that is more likely that Sansa will become the Wardeness of the North, while Jon goes to King's Landing where he will remain as Daenerys' heir. 

The scenes that I am looking forward to next season are the Lannister siblings reuniting. I just know that their final scenes together will be crackling and tense with accusations and hard truths before they part ways for what might be the last time. 

I expect that Daenerys and her army will be at King's Landing by the end of the season. She will demand that the Lannisters and their allies surrender with Tyrion to dictate terms. Cersei will lose what is left of her damn mind when she finds out that Tyrion is Daenerys' Hand and that the prophecy is coming through with a younger more beautiful queen about to defeat her, maybe she even threatens to burn down King's Landing with wildfire like the Mad King. Jaime will be torn and finally will have to decide what kind of man he wants to be. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by SimoneS

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I think that is more likely that Sansa will become the Wardeness of the North, while Jon goes to King's Langing where he will remain as Daenerys' heir. 

I don't see Jon staying in King's Landing because he'd hate it, and he'd be a total fish out of water there. It'd be worse than Ned in King's Landing, if that's possible. In fact I could see Sansa returning to King's Landing (but I think she will stay in the North now). I would love to see one last scene with her and Cersei.

I hope Jaime has already decided what kind of man he wants to be, after he finds out that Cersei killed a bunch of people and her actions led to her son's death. 

[YaddaYadda]

A bit of a thought regarding Cersei and the little birds. She wanted little birds in Dorne, Highgarden, the North. If she has her little spies in those places, especially in Dorne and in Highgarden, it means that she already knows about Dany, and them joining forces with her to take KL.

In keeping with this, I've been wondering if this isn't where Euron comes into play (unless he's been dropped altogether). Euron was building ships that he intended on offering Dany in exchange for marriage, and anatomy. There has been speculation of a Euron/Cersei possible marriage. 

The Greyjoys are really useless on land because that's not who they are. What are the odds that Euron's fleet, along with whatever the Lannisters have will meet with Dany's fleet before she either arrives in Storm's End, or Dragonstone, where we would have another ship battle (although I really don't remember much from Blackwater, and how things went other then the chain and the wildfire which there is still plenty of).

It just seems way too easy that Dany would arrive in Westeros with her forces completely intact. Her dragons can still lay waste to Euron's ships anyway, but still. 

29 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I don't see Jon staying in King's Landing because he'd hate it, and he'd be a total fish out of water there. It'd be worse than Ned in King's Landing, if that's possible.

Jon is a true northerner. Doesn't matter that he's half Targaryen. I don't know how things will work out with him since he's someone who is thrust into these situations. I don't even think Dany will be on the iron throne by the end of the series. Dany is a conqueror, and the impression that I've always gotten with her is that she just seems bored when she's in one place, like politics just bore her.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

I don't see Jon staying in King's Landing because he'd hate it, and he'd be a total fish out of water there. It'd be worse than Ned in King's Landing, if that's possible.

Assuming there is a new central government in KL (or elsewhere) at the series' end, it would be a completely different place than it is now.  Jon, or Dany, or whoever, would completely clean the place out and install their own people.

[Chris24601]

There's no practical reason for Jon to be in King's Landing if he's Dany's heir. Indeed, it would be in the best interests of the kingdom if the heir were someplace else entirely to ensure that some callamity doesn't wipe them both out and create yet another succession crisis.

Similarly, if Jon is Dany's heir you're still just one accident away from another succession crisis until Jon has heirs of his own (preferably an heir and multiple spares given the luck the monarchy has been having of late). Not to mention that, especially if she's not having children of her own (with all the risks that entails), Dany is likely to outlive Jon anyway (he's a year older than her) so his heirs are far more likely to inherit than he is.

The long and the short of it is that the stability of the kingdom depends upon Jon having many legitimate children. For that he needs a wife and because this is a story and not real life that wife will need to be someone known to the audience and someone Jon gets to interact with enough to get a sense that this marriage would be something he would be happy with so the audience will be satisfied with the ending.

Because "Congratulations Jon! You just saved the Realm from certain death. As a reward you get a loveless political marriage to  a complete stranger and have to move a thousand miles from the only home you've ever known to live among scheming strangers who hold everything you value in contempt" is NOT going to satisfy general audiences. AT. ALL.

And right now Sansa is really the only candidate available and season seven doesn't look to be changing that. Call it fanfic all you want, but story structure is story structure and not only have we run out of time for anyone but Sansa for Jon (because Arya and Dany aren't at a place in their stories to get North in time), we're also headed smack dab into what is essentially a Jon/Sansa/Baelish triangle next season (who will Sansa choose?) which only reinforces that narrative arc.

The showrunners all but telegraphed it way back in episode 4 with "Where will WE go?" and then sharing every episode and practically every scene since.

The showrunners wanted general audiences thinking of Jon and Sansa as a unit and that's deliberate. If they did not want that impression they would have split them up during the recruitment phase (Sansa wasn't needed for the Wildlings, Jon could have skipped the Mormont and Glover scenes) and not presented them like they were Ned/Cat 2.0 all season.

It is these and many other structural elements; the Screenwriting 101 if you will; that tell me Jon/Sansa at Winterfell has a high probability of being the end game.

[bunnyblue]

28 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

It just seems way too easy that Dany would arrive in Westeros with her forces completely intact. Her dragons can still lay waste to Euron's ships anyway, but still. 

Her dragons can certainly lay waste to Euron's fleet but there's nothing they can do against mother nature. Right now there is no army that can stop Dany's forces, but I feel like something has to slow her down before she reaches King's Landing, and I think that something could be storms that destroy part of her fleet. Didn't Steffon Baratheon's ship go down just off of Storms End? And didn't Salladhor Saan lose most of his fleet to storms? Maybe instead of a naval battle between Dany and Euron (because HTH can he build enough ships in time to intercept her?), maybe it'll be storms that blow her off course and cost her part of her ships, soldiers, and horses.

I think that sort of delay would keep Cersei in power and alive until she finally meets her doom* at the end of S7. I can also imagine if Cersei gets word that Daenarys Targaryen is marching towards King's Landing, it would give her plenty of time to set up another Wildfire Extravaganza. That way Dany's vision of the throne room from the HotU can come true. And then while Dany deals with the fallout in KL she gets word from the KitN pleading for help in dealing with the White Walker invasion that has just gotten underway. (How Jon would know Dany is in power by then and not Cersei? I'll say Bran sees it through the weirternet)

*I actually don't want Cersei to die, I think that's too merciful for someone who massacred hundreds of people and been responsible for the suffering of an entire kingdom. I want her spend the rest of her days in the black cells, only to be trotted out every few months to see how great things are going under the rule of the YMBQ Dany and HotQ Tyrion. 

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

There's no practical reason for Jon to be in King's Landing if he's Dany's heir.

If Jon was Dany's heir, there would be a very practical reason for him to be in King's Landing:  to help govern the country and be familiar with the levers of power.  That's like saying there'd be no practical reason for the Prince of Wales to be in London.

[Lemuria]

Speaking of off-the-world speculation, this is something that I thought about the other day, and it has to do with the Azor Ahai idea and the theory that Jon Snow is AA reborn.  GRRM has talked about how the ending would be "bittersweet."  I was thinking about the ending of LOTR, which I always thought was bittersweet in regard to a lot of things, one of them being Frodo's saying that they had saved the Shire but not for him.  

Going on the assumption that JS=AA, what if it's a circle but the twist is that the future came before past, that JS is not the AA reborn but the AA born, he's the Alpha and the Omega only he starts here and ends there?  (OK, not being too clear here, am I?)  If JS is the AA, I don't think we'll know that until the last episode of next season--maybe, Lightbringer lights up?--and in season 8, he and his allies succeed in staving off the Long Night.  

But Lightbringer was made in the past (I don't think JS will be creating a new sword in the show) by the AA.  What if JS/AA has to give up his world, his time, everything he knows (well, he's Jon Snow, so he doesn't know anything, anyway lol) and everyone he loves (who's still standing!) to go back thousands of years--a one-way trip--to become the hero from which the legend springs and to create the weapon he needs to stop the darkness both back then and now?  Something that would qualify as a bittersweet victory in my opinion.

(Okay, this made more sense in my head than it does on the page!  Sorry.)

Edited July 5, 2016 by Lemuria

[anamika]

No, Sansa and Jon are not going to marry. Either in the books or on the show. In the books, Sansa is off doing her own thing in the Vale and will probably only end up meeting Jon towards the very end if she can bring the Vale armies to her side. Currently she cannot do that, since the Vale belongs to SR and then Harry the Heir. SR should die, HH should become heir, she should then marry him and either convince him to side with her or kill him off to get the Vale. This should be her TWoW plot. Once this is done, she holds one of the largest armies and a large food supply that can come in handy with the Others. So she will either send both North or the Others are moving towards the Vale.

She will also be in some manner responsible for LF's undoing. That's her main story in the books : LF. We should also remember that Sansa as a character was created to make conflict among the Starks because why should the Starks alone have loving family members. So maybe the Sansa/LF combine may try to take Winterfell from Jon/Rickon towards the end. We also have Robb's will which has essentially removed Sansa from the line of inheritance and legitimized Jon. Besides Bran is heading back to WF and Rickon is still alive. Marrying Sansa accounts for nothing politically. LF does not know that. But certain northerners and the readers do.

Besides all that, Sansa and Jon are literally indifferent to each other in their books. Sansa has forgotten that Jon exists and Jon worries more about Tyrion than Sansa when Stannis brings up their marriage. Jon loves go-getters like Arya, Ygritte and Val (Dany stereotypes) as opposed to girls sitting in a tower waiting to be rescued (The Sansa stereotype). Jon refuses Winterfell, not for Sansa, but because of his closeness to the Old Gods.

Now coming to the show. They decided to put Sansa in the North to give Sophie Turner and Sansa something more meaty to do other than puttering about in the Vale with SR. In doing so they decimated several other characters arcs like Theon's and Jon's. Theon's moment of redemption comes when he rescues Jeyne Poole, knowing that she is not Arya and has no value to anyone. Jon's entire ADwD arc was about vacillating between rescuing Arya and sticking to his oaths. At the end, he decides to go save Arya which leads to his undoing at the NW. The show negated the Jon-Arya relationship which GRRM took pains to highlight in the books and reduced Jon himself to an unthinking idiot while Sansa and Davos (Two characters who are not at the wall) do all the talking and thinking.

Besides, even looking at Jon and Sansa's interactions this season, I don't know why anyone would want them together. If my younger siblings talked to me the way Sansa talks to Jon, I would not give them the time of the day. I just re-watched some of the episodes and Sansa's way of talking is really grating.

' you DONT know him'. ' a MONSTER has taken our BROTHER.' ' did it ever ONCE occur to you that I might have SOME insight'. She's like those tumblr tweens who write in all caps to make a point. Her constant complaints about Davos also went nowhere. And she could have spoken up anytime as she has done so several times before. And the only good piece of advice she gave was that Ramsey plays mind tricks. And that's not going to count for much when Jon sees his little brother running towards him. In the meantime Jon comes off as this patient, good natured, henpecked brother, who apologizes, shrugs aside her lies and blunders and goes with whatever she says.

In contrast, the Dany-Tyrion relationship. wow. I am loving their interactions so far.  Their conversations are so good. A mature conversation between two adults. Look at the way Tyrion advises Dany on how to approach the slavers as opposed to Sansa berating Jon for talking to Davos and Tormund rather than her.

And then there's LF driving a wedge between them. As mentioned by D and D way back in episode 5 when she lies to Jon, LF has got his hooks into her. She's jealous that the North is not crediting her, despite not telling anyone about the Vale army which could have helped with better planning.

All in all, I am pretty sure we are not getting marriage or romance between Jon and Sansa. In the books or on the show. If anything we will get only conflict. Dany, on the other hand,  is looking to getting married in Westeros and most eligible bachelor is the KITN. Besides we have all that foreshadowing  in the books for them (Blue Rose on the wall smelling of sweetness). I see Jon and Dany as happening. Not Jon and Sansa.

Edited July 5, 2016 by anamika

[Minneapple]

Quote

Sansa has forgotten that Jon exists

That's not true at all. She remembers him when she's in the Vale, when she hears he's been named Lord Commander and notes that she's a bastard just like him. Then she thinks that it would be sweet to see him again.

Quote

 I don't know why anyone would want them together.

Because they like the couple? People ship for whatever reason. Ship and let ship, I say. Any number of pairings could happen, so unless any one of us is GRRM or D&D, the speculation is fair game. 

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, Lemuria said:

But Lightbringer was made in the past (I don't think JS will be creating a new sword in the show) by the AA.  What if JS/AA has to give up his world, his time, everything he knows (well, he's Jon Snow, so he doesn't know anything, anyway lol) and everyone he loves (who's still standing!) to go back thousands of years--a one-way trip--to become the hero from which the legend springs and to create the weapon he needs to stop the darkness both back then and now?  Something that would qualify as a bittersweet victory in my opinion.

(Okay, this made more sense in my head than it does on the page!  Sorry.)

I've been thinking a lot about the Long Night too, and how it will play out in Season 8. I do think there will be some kind of HUGE, awful, final choice Jon will have to make. I think the key to unlocking this plot point is Maester Aemon's words to Jon in Season 1 (book quote): "What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brothers smile? ... We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy." Your spec probably isn't so far fetched...Jon will have to do something pretty agonizing for us as viewers, but also detestable to him as an honorable person. I really do think the Nissa Nissa prophecy will come to pass...he's going to have to kill someone he loves to save the world (ignite Lightbringer). And that person is someone whom he's had more screen more than anyone else at this point: Sansa. So I think Jon will have to decide between saving Sansa vs. saving the world. It would be MOST interesting to me if he refused to kill her and acts just like he did at the BoB, putting everyone at risk to save his family. That, or he makes some insane compromise and becomes the new Night King. There has gotta be some big sacrifice coming and it's not just going to be "Jon fights the Night's king, wins easily, peace comes to the realm."

Edited July 5, 2016 by Colorful Mess

[jjjmoss]

Some people want things to be overly convoluted for the sake of it.

[anamika]

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

That's not true at all. She remembers him when she's in the Vale, when she hears he's been named Lord Commander and notes that she's a bastard just like him. Then she thinks that it would be sweet to see him again.

She thinks of him at the very end of AFfC when Myranda brings him up. Look at her thoughts:

Quote

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.

Even here she has reservations about Jon. She states that he is only her half brother and with all her brothers dead, only Jon is available. Like she will have to make do with Jon. She herself admits to thinking that she had forgotten about Jon. And it's true. There's a passage sometime earlier when she looks at all her options:

Quote

She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King’s Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she’d hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr.

How she does not think of Jon at the wall? She even thinks of Tyrion as an option, but not Jon. Contrast that to Arya who has been trying to get to Jon at the wall from the moment she fled KL. I predict that Arya will reunite with Jon first in the books.

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Because they like the couple? People ship for whatever reason. Ship and let ship, I say. Any number of pairings could happen, so unless any one of us is GRRM or D&D, the speculation is fair game. 

Sure, I can see why they ship the TV characters together. Sophie Turner and Kit Harington look good together despite him being a midget and her being a giantess. But I don't see anything that logically makes sense for these characters to get together. Most of it amounts to Sansa fans wanting Sansa to get together with a good guy who will make her happy and that only leaves Jon. Wishful thinking.

I am not a fan of SanSan either because I think that the hound is a drunken, abusive asshole and Sansa deserves better. I would just rather Sansa stay single as I think that would make book Sansa ultimately happy. I don't know what the show version wants at the moment other than revenge.

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

And that person is someone whom he's had more screen more than anyone else at this point: Sansa. So I think Jon will have to decide between saving Sansa vs. saving the world.

The main characters (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran) will have the same endings on the show as they do in the books. There is no way Sansa is Jon's Nissa Nissa just because she has a lot of screen time with him in season 6. Why not let Edd be Jon's Nissa Nissa in that case. The criteria for being NN  is someone who is loved dearly by AA. There are more candidates (Arya, Ghost, Bran, Rickon, Sam) ahead of Sansa if Jon is AA.

Edited July 5, 2016 by anamika

[spottedreptile]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

"What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brothers smile? ... We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

Quotes like these always have some reason for being. I agree with you that this is a major theme of ASOIAF. It also echoes in Family, Duty, Honor if you think about it, and the way these three words can be re-arranged or re-prioritized according to circumstance and/or protagonist, and a kingdom can fall as a result. Ned's Duty as Hand was to tell the King what he discovered about his children. But he chose Honor (giving Cersei a chance to run) over Duty, and it got many people killed and started a tidal wave in Kings' Landing. Robb abrogated all three - Family, Duty and Honor for his love, and we all know how that turned out etc etc.

Edited July 5, 2016 by spottedreptile

[Minneapple]

But I don't see anything that logically makes sense for these characters to get together

I don't see much logic behind Jon/Dany either, so whatevs. I do agree that a lot of the Jon/Sansa shipping is because the actors have oodles of chemistry. I've read more than one review that noted that vibe between the actors.

But it's rude to dismiss people's ships as "fanfic" or "wishful thinking." Though maybe you're right, all of this speculation and shipping is just wishful thinking, a subtextual interpretation of the text, until we get more text to argue about.

There has gotta be some big sacrifice coming and it's not just going to be "Jon fights the Night's king, wins easily, peace comes to the realm."

Yeah, I think one of the major characters is going to die at the end in some kind of twist or sacrifice. It could be Nissa Nissa, whoever that is.

I am also curious how Melisandre will play a role going forward. I don't think she's done yet.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I don't see much logic behind Jon/Dany either, so whatevs. I do agree that a lot of the Jon/Sansa shipping is because the actors have oodles of chemistry. I've read more than one review that noted that vibe between the actors.

That said, some of us have been on the Jon/Sansa train since long before season six when they actually started displaying that chemistry. I first got turned onto the theory because of this essay from 2013... Blind Spot: The Case for Jon and Sansa

I was the one speccing before they ever met on screen that part of the reason Sansa was given the Jeyne Poole arc was to get her up into the North in advance of her book counterpart (because relationships take more time on screen than they do on page) and for me season six was more of a confirmation of my theories than the start of some new one (the new theory for me was that Dany might not turn into a complete monster/evil conqueror).

I also don't see the point of making Jon a secret Targ if he was going to hook up with Dany in the end. But he needs to ride a dragon/fulfill a prophecy/etc.? Martin was the one in control of setting those conditions. If he wanted a Jon/Dany hookup he could have just written the rules/prophecies differently so they still applied to Jon and none of us would have known any better. The ONLY reason for Martin to make Jon Rhaegar's son is if its going to actually matter to the story (and since this was set up long before the story started to bloat its something that has to be important to the actual endgame).

I prefer Jon/Sansa to Dany largely because its a great twist on a timeless story... two people who barely regard each other start out from the same place, head in opposite directions and experience life in such a way that when they finally reunite they now appreciate what they have in common as the truly important things in life. There's a lot more nuance in that set-up than 'female lead Dany Sue hooks up with the male lead because he's the male lead after conquering liberating the seven kingdoms with her magic dragons.'

[Advance35]

Quote

Jon is a true northerner. Doesn't matter that he's half Targaryen. I don't know how things will work out with him since he's someone who is thrust into these situations. I don't even think Dany will be on the iron throne by the end of the series. Dany is a conqueror, and the impression that I've always gotten with her is that she just seems bored when she's in one place, like politics just bore her.

I've always ruled out Jon or Dany on the Iron Throne at the end because I believe I recall GRRM giving an interview and saying that the person who holds the Iron Throne at the end will be someone unexpected.    Speculation through the years have run the gamut from Gendry, Jon Snow, Sansa to Samwell Tarly.   I think either Jon or Dany is expected at this point, so I've always kind of ruled them out, thinking they'll die to stop the Otherpocalypse.

With regards to Jon/Sansa, I can switch back and forth.  What made me see the potential was when I read Jon's execution of Janos Slynt, I later did a re-read of the series and just remember the Lannister's rewarding him and Sansa thinking she would like to see someone take his head but that would take a hero and there are no heroes.  That made me go "Woah."

I think Kit and Sophie look gorgeous together and I'm really surprised that I've seen the chemistry noted by miscellaneous reviewers (quite a few prominent ones).  But then again I think Sansa is shipped with everyone, the lightening rod of ASOIAF.   But shipping aside and potential trouble aside, I notice that Jon/Sansa has been credited as one of the Highlights of the Season.  Though oblique on occasion, many seem to like the dynamic a great deal.

Quote

Dany is not a Sue. That's the problem with shipping debates. Someone always feels the need to tear down a 'rival' character to 'sail' their ship. 

To be fair, shipping, aside, many people have found Dany to be very "Special Snowflake."  The only girl in the world to have/control dragons, the only girl in the world to be immune to fire and credited as "the most beautiful woman in the world."  Her continuous and unending fall upwards has always been a turn-off to me, it just won't require expression provided she's not sucking up screen time.

[YaddaYadda]

11 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Her dragons can certainly lay waste to Euron's fleet but there's nothing they can do against mother nature. Right now there is no army that can stop Dany's forces, but I feel like something has to slow her down before she reaches King's Landing, and I think that something could be storms that destroy part of her fleet. Didn't Steffon Baratheon's ship go down just off of Storms End? And didn't Salladhor Saan lose most of his fleet to storms? Maybe instead of a naval battle between Dany and Euron (because HTH can he build enough ships in time to intercept her?), maybe it'll be storms that blow her off course and cost her part of her ships, soldiers, and horses.

Super good point with the weather and the storms. I always forget about the weather. The Targaryen fleet was also destroyed during a storm in Dragonstone on the night Dany was born. 

8 hours ago, Lemuria said:

But Lightbringer was made in the past (I don't think JS will be creating a new sword in the show) by the AA.  What if JS/AA has to give up his world, his time, everything he knows (well, he's Jon Snow, so he doesn't know anything, anyway lol) and everyone he loves (who's still standing!) to go back thousands of years--a one-way trip--to become the hero from which the legend springs and to create the weapon he needs to stop the darkness both back then and now?  Something that would qualify as a bittersweet victory in my opinion.

(Okay, this made more sense in my head than it does on the page!  Sorry.)

How was Azor Ahai chosen in the first place? Was he also born under a bleeding comet, in the midst of salt and smoke? All we know (or as far as I know) is that he was some guy who was chosen to save the world from darkness, and had to make a great sacrifice for it. 

And maybe we'll find out a lot more in the books when someone decides that it's time to buckle down and write. None of us are getting any younger!

On my end though, I really can't help but think of Dawn (its origins are lost to legend). Yeah, the sun is a star, but the sun chases away the darkness of the night. They could have put an actual star on the pommel, instead, they put a rising sun on it (dawn). As far as everything goes, that sword is very unique, and is still at Starfall which is practically next to Oldtown.

I know it's far fetched since that sword is passed down to the person that is the sword of the morning in House Dayne. House Dayne is full of mysteries.

[anamika]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

 prefer Jon/Sansa to Dany largely because its a great twist on a timeless story... two people who barely regard each other start out from the same place, head in opposite directions and experience life in such a way that when they finally reunite they now appreciate what they have in common as the truly important things in life.

What is the great twist about two characters who are originally indifferent to each other, meeting and then falling in love? The whole thing would be bland as hell and that's certainly not what GRRM goes for. When he originally intended for Jon and Arya to fall in love, it was a passion that torments both of them because they dearly loved each other as siblings and that was changing into something else. GRRM is into the whole forbidden love thing. Jon and Sansa will be more 'oh we are falling in love? ok.' 

And I don't think Jon and Sansa have anything in common at all. At the end of ASoS, Jon gives up his desire for family and children and devotes his life to the NW to defeat the Others.  The only reason he broke his oaths was to save a beloved sister. Meanwhile in the Vale, Sansa is ignoring SR being slowly poisoned by LF so that Harry can be heir. She has lied and conspired with LF. The only person Jon has loved (Ygritte), he constantly compares to Arya.  Arya, Ygritte, Val  - lonely, lovely and lethal. I can add Dany to that list.

3 hours ago, doram said:

Dany is not a Sue. That's the problem with shipping debates. Someone always feels the need to tear down a 'rival' character to 'sail' their ship. 

I like Dany a lot better than Sansa and she is definitely no Mary Sue. I like that she actively does things and makes lemonade out of lemons instead of sitting around going all woe is me, my life sucks. She had a terrible childhood with an abusive brother, was forcefully married, raped, and lost a child and a husband by the time she was 13. That's hardship. Ruling Meereen certainly did not come easily to her. She made mistakes and had to learn to negotiate for peace.

Now that she has Tyrion by her side and an army, navy and air force (Which took her 6 seasons to collect), I see her easily dealing with Cersei (About time the Lannisters were kicked out of KL) and turning her attention North. By which time the KITN is in trouble with the WW. Dany proposes an alliance between North and South, granting autonomy to the North and Jon and Dany marry to seal the deal. Bran will be the new Lord of WF. I am also thinking there will be a new capital as well. Jon's Targ lineage will be more important in dealing with the WW. I think Bran, Jon and Dany will be the 3 dragon riders.

Or GRRM may actually stick with his original outline and have Arya and Jon falling in love but I think Arya's age continues to be a sticking point for him without the 5 year gap. But some of GRRM's  best lines about love in the books are from Jon thinking about Arya : What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? and Arya thinking about Jon : Needle was Jon Snow's smile. If Jon is AA, then his NN is either Arya or Ghost, whom he considers to be a part of himself.

Ultimately, there's foreshadowing for both Arya/Jon and Dany/Jon in the books. Whatever GRRM chooses, I think we will get Jon/Dany on the show. It's more age appropriate for a TV audience. I thought they may go Jon/Sansa, but after seeing their interactions this season, I don't think that's on the table. Jon-Sansa interactions were more annoying than anything romantic. And i think they are setting up LF/Sansa against Jon. 

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I've always ruled out Jon or Dany on the Iron Throne at the end because I believe I recall GRRM giving an interview and saying that the person who holds the Iron Throne at the end will be someone unexpected.    Speculation through the years have run the gamut from Gendry, Jon Snow, Sansa to Samwell Tarly.   I think either Jon or Dany is expected at this point, so I've always kind of ruled them out, thinking they'll die to stop the Otherpocalypse.

But GRRM also thinks that R+L =J is a big secret. He admits that the internet has allowed people to discuss and put together the clues but when he came up with the whole thing and even some 5 years back, he thought that not many have figured this out. In which case Jon Snow is an unexpected choice considering he has nothing to do with the whole game of thrones and is a character at the wall.

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

With regards to Jon/Sansa, I can switch back and forth.  What made me see the potential was when I read Jon's execution of Janos Slynt, I later did a re-read of the series and just remember the Lannister's rewarding him and Sansa thinking she would like to see someone take his head but that would take a hero and there are no heroes.  That made me go "Woah."

 GRRM originally had Jon hanging Slynt when he read out the chapter at a book reading in a convention. The audience pointed out that Jon would kill Slynt the Stark way and behead him instead of hanging him. So GRRM went back and changed that!

Edited July 5, 2016 by anamika

[Eyes High]

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

Assuming there is a new central government in KL (or elsewhere) at the series' end, it would be a completely different place than it is now.  Jon, or Dany, or whoever, would completely clean the place out and install their own people.

Agreed. Ned wasn't eaten alive in KL because of something inherent to the city; it had to do with the malevolence of specific people. Jon would presumably surround himself with decent, competent advisors he could trust like Davos.

Quote

And right now Sansa is really the only candidate available [for Jon's endgame partner] and season seven doesn't look to be changing that.

Benioff hinted that there would be conflict between them in Season 7, and Sophie has spoken several times about the intent of the last scene (to convey Sansa's unhappiness with not being recognized and her jealousy of Jon). The scene with Jon where he reminds her that they have to trust each other, paired with Sansa's unhappiness in the last scene when Jon is named KITN, points towards Season 7 conflict between the two in my opinion. 

I agree that Jon is most likely the endgame king, but arguing that it necessarily follows from that he is going to marry Sansa is a huge stretch, and one unsupported by Season 6 and 6x10 in particular, in my opinion at least.

I also think it's premature to declare any pairings between still-living characters in the show DOA or 100% confirmed based solely on what's happening in the show, especially when those pairings seem very much at odds with what seems to be going on in the books. I don't think there is any dispute that Sansa has considerable subtext with Sandor in the books, and far, far more than she has with Jon. Sandor is still alive in the show--and headed north to boot, it seems--so it seems premature to claim that Sansa is likely going to marry Jon based on Season 6 when Sansa could very well see Sandor again in Season 7. 

In my observation, the TV writers tend to move things around as it suits them and in particular delay character beats until what they consider the opportune moment. We get Season 6 Jaime banging on about his love for Cersei when he was disenchanted with her in AFFC so that his disenchantment in the TV show would coincide with Cersei becoming queen. His rehabilitation wasn't eliminated, merely put off. It's too early, I think, to declare any book romance dead in the water based on a lack of interaction to date. TV Jaime and Brienne barely said two words about each other during their separation, and the only hint at the ship in the show was Jaime's moony-eyed gaze at Tarth, but in Season 6 in their one episode they left no one in any doubt of their mutual love. Something similar could happen with Sandor and Sansa. I think it's too early to call the pairing in the show DOA until one of them is legit dead.

10 hours ago, anamika said:

She will also be in some manner responsible for LF's undoing. That's her main story in the books : LF. We should also remember that Sansa as a character was created to make conflict among the Starks because why should the Starks alone have loving family members. So maybe the Sansa/LF combine may try to take Winterfell from Jon/Rickon towards the end. We also have Robb's will which has essentially removed Sansa from the line of inheritance and legitimized Jon. 

(...) I just re-watched some of the episodes and Sansa's way of talking is really grating.

 

' you DONT know him'. 'a MONSTER has taken our BROTHER.' ' did it ever ONCE occur to you that I might have SOME insight'. 

(...)

And then there's LF driving a wedge between them. As mentioned by D and D way back in episode 5 when she lies to Jon, LF has got his hooks into her. She's jealous that the North is not crediting her, despite not telling anyone about the Vale army which could have helped with better planning.

I agree that it looks like LF and Sansa in the show (and possibly the books) will be teaming up against Jon (I'm guessing that Robb's will will come into play in the books and Rickon will be out of the picture), and that LF will exploit Sansa's jealousy and resentment to pit her against Jon. Sansa needs to trust Jon now more than ever, as he urged her in 6x10, but it looks like she'll be less and less inclined to do so. She again seems to be falling into the trap of thinking she can handle LF, judging from her knowing smile when she tells LF his support of other houses in the past has never stopped him from serving him, and she seems mollified by the way he came through in the clutch for her. She looks perilously close to siding with LF against Jon, which is going to go extremely badly for her, I expect.

Sansa's way of talking is really grating, but that's all on Sophie Turner's limits as an actress, I think. At least she has a viable accent, as opposed to whatever Gillen, NCW and Peter Dinklage's nonsense accents are supposed to be.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

Dany conquering Westeros, dragons helping end the white walkers, Jon/Dany pairing up and ruling...it all seems a little too perfect and neat, the opposite of what GRRM likes to do. So I do think Dany will run into some kind of issue on her way to Westeros. I like the speculation about the storms, and then there's the Ironborn building their thousand ships in a couple weeks. They could also bring the dragonbinding horn into the show still.

[bluvelvet]

Dragon binding horn ?

I wonder if next season will show the Dothraki getting sick at sea? Similar to what happened the last time she took them on a boat. 

[Advance35]

Quote

Dany conquering Westeros, dragons helping end the white walkers, Jon/Dany pairing up and ruling...it all seems a little too perfect and neat, the opposite of what GRRM likes to do. So I do think Dany will run into some kind of issue on her way to Westeros. I like the speculation about the storms, and then there's the Ironborn building their thousand ships in a couple weeks. They could also bring the dragonbinding horn into the show still.

That's my issue with it. Jon as King with Dany as his Queen, ruling over the lands of Westeros in peace and prosperity.......the thought just makes me want to heave.  And it's not related to shipping but that like you said, it's SO perfect.   It's almost Harry Potter Ending levels of nauseating.  I guess they could have Dany on the throne and Jon is nothing more then her consort?  I don't know.

But he did say the ending would be bittersweet so I expect some morally grey and even some, villainous characters to survive the whole series.   Are there only going to be good people left in the world?