S02.E10: Prestonpans

[Athena]

Quote

Jamie uses Claire's knowledge of the future to lead the Jacobite army into battle against the British, while Claire tends to the wounded, a harsh reminder of the cost of war.

Note: This is the Book Talk thread. It can contain spoilers from all the books. Unspoiled posters, please leave if you want to remain unspoiled.

[ulkis]

Noooo. Freaking Dougal. I recognized that dulcet voice before he said his name. Screw Dougal for that.

I think everyone could tell even without reading the books (I don't know if it happened in the books this way) that Angus was the one who wouldn't make it. He kind of annoyed me though in this episode so I didn't feel too much for him. I did feel bad for Rupert though. Hope I didn't mix up their names, heh.

Did Fergus say in the book 2 he was being asked to do women's work or did they incorporate that from the later books, cause I know he says it then. Anyway, it made me kinda wish Claire was a little more irritated with him afterwards, because she did actually need him, but I guess he realized his mistake. I wa irritated at him but he's been through a shitshow so I guess I can't be too mad at him.

Edited June 11, 2016 by ulkis

[Dust Bunny]

Well, dammit. That Rupert-Angus bait and switch was painful.  Angus’ death was telegraphed, starting with Claire’s kiss, but it was still a gut-punch.

So sad to see Rupert struggle to get up, bend down to get the sword, and then sit down again clutching it. And to know the church scene happens next week, I guess we’re done with the happy episodes.

I was delighted to see Foster again; he was such a likeable redcoat. And then Dougal kills him. I guess that will help make it plausible to non-book readers later that Dougal is capable of killing Claire. It was pretty brutal how Dougal was publicly disgraced by BPC. It feels like this episode is setting up the Jamie and Dougal showdown that is to come. Jamie doesn’t even want any of this. But, like Culloden, that showdown looks like it can’t be avoided. Kudos to all the writers for playing such a long-game with the Jamie-Dougal dynamic.

I loved Jamie’s red hair in the midst of all the gray wigs. Red Jamie is making his presence known. He’s definitely the young guy in the room, but he has the confidence and esteem of the men of all ages.

The Murtagh-Claire friendship has really become beautiful. Cait and Duncan have created something special there. I want to rewatch “The Search” and see that grow.

Also surprised that we've seen so much of Claire parenting Fergus. I’ve been expecting more of a Jamie-Fergus dynamic, but it’s nice to see Claire hug Fergus so much.

I can see why this is Sam’s favorite episode. The battle scenes, covered in fog, were magnificent. I also loved the men and women preparing themselves for the battle to come. And I loved how Sam delivered the line, "The day is ours, Sassenach."

Seeing Jamie and Claire kiss so passionately before he left to fight made me think how painful their goodbye at Culloden will be. I should stock up on Kleenix now.

Dougal’s horse gave me flashbacks to "The Neverending Story". Never ride or pull your white horse into a bog! Now I have to go to a happy place before bed, so I don’t have nightmares.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[toolazy]

I can't be mad at Fergus for disobeying Clarie because he's so freaking adorable and he's just a kid. Of course he'd rather be fighting with the men than taking orders from women. 

I am sad about Angus.  I kind of like how they switched it up - readers would expect Rupert to be the one to die.  I hope, though, that Angus' death wasn't supposed to be a surprise because they heaviliy foreshadowed it.  Still, it made me sad.

I like how they made sure we weren't supposed to be too sympathetic to Dougal after he needlessly slaughtered that Redcoat whose name escapes me.  The one who was decent to Claire.  Yeah, fuck Dougal.  

I also liked that this episode wasn't Claire-centric.  She was part of it but she wasn't the main part of it. 

[Petunia846]

Oh, man. I'm not sure my heart can handle the rest of this season.

[Andorra]

I thought this episode was brilliant. And I say that as someone who isn't too much a fan of Ira Behr. 

I thought it was all so emotional. I cried through the whole battle, I think I actually cried more than I did in the "Faith" episode.

Graham McTavish was great in this episode. Dougal really is an intriguing mix of a hot headed and a cold blooded bastard, in a good and in a very bad way. First the scene where he tried to ride into the moor? I cheered for him along with all the men. But then the scene with the English officer? I was disgusted!!

I was sad about Angus and I was actually fooled into believing it would be Rupert, already chiding the writers  in my head for straying from the book. 

Murtagh was wonderful again. I so love Duncan Lacroix in this role! He has made Murtagh his own and is so much better than the book character. Just amazing. His talk with Jamie and his short,emotional exchange with Claire. I really need Murtagh to remain in the show!

And finally Sam was amazing. What a wonderful Jamie he is.Smart, strong, heroic. I see JAMMF come to life and I can't see anyone else ever replacing Sam in my vision of Jamie.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Andorra

[morgan]

Not Lt. Babyface!  Nooo!  I know I should be more concerned for Angus, and it was sad, but I expected his death (and Rupert's next week...and Dougal's....).  But the way Lt Foster (aka Babyface as those who listen to the Scot and the Sassanach will know) was murdered just made me so sad.  Such a fine fellow.  And looking at him, I could have seen the actor as LJG.

Good ep overall.  Will watch again alter with my husband.  Not sure I really like the turn they are giving Dougal in the show to be honest.  It's been a while since I read the book though but he just seems off.  He was always a passionate Jacobite but here he just seems off somehow.  Can't quite put my finger on it, will mull it over as I weed the blueberry bushes in a bit.  

So with Angus gone and Rupert soon to go...will there be a witness to Jamie killing Dougal?  Or just a nameless witness maybe?  Hmmmm

Loved Jamie, Claire, and Fergus.  Lots of tissues in my future.  Sniff.  

Edited June 11, 2016 by morgan

[Andorra]

I wonder if Rupert will survive next week and then be the witness? I meant to have spotted him with a bandage around his head in the background of the kirk scene?

Diana wrote the episode, so I'm really curious if she will do changes from the book!

[Shorty186]

Well they haven't killed Colum yet. I'm wondering if there's a reason for that, unless I'm misremembering the book timeline. 

[morgan]

I'm guessing that will be next week?  Busy week!

[bearcatfan]

I too was fooled into thinking it would be Rupert. I thought that maybe they cut the church and would have him die here, all the while forgetting that Angus had been hit. Then, afterward, I realized that Angus' death had been telegraphed. I have always liked Rupert more than Angus but I still cried just seeing everyone's reaction to his death. These last few episodes are going to be painful!

I thought Colum died right before Culloden. I think we see the Duke's head prior to Colum dying.

2 hours ago, morgan said:

But the way Lt Foster (aka Babyface as those who listen to the Scot and the Sassanach will know) was murdered just made me so sad.  Such a fine fellow.  And looking at him, I could have seen the actor as LJG.

I was trying to figure out if he was supposed to be Hal and missed who he actually was, until Dougal killed him and I rewound to see what I missed. He would have made a good LJG.

[WatchrTina]

Quote

Angus’ death was telegraphed

Not to me, and I'm a reader.  So much of this episode was completely original I was able to let go and just ride the wave without knowing where it was taking me (other than to a Jacobite victory -- in that way I was much like Claire.)  So Angus' death shocked me.  

I'm going to watch again now.  I just wanted to pop in to say that the episode was brilliant -- tense and funny and thrilling and heartbreaking.  I love this show.

[morgan]

I think for me Angus' death was telegraphed but still missed.  When he had so many more lines than Rupert early on I was surprised thinking Rupert would die soon and get the bulk of them.  And then when we saw Rupert's injury and I assumed he was dying here rather than in the church next week, again I thought it was weird how much more Angus got than Rupert.  Then when Angus died instead it all clicked into place.  

Just watched again with my husband and again I thought it was a good ep.  Again I mourn for Lt Babyface.  I know he didn't have much of a role, outside of humanizing the British (they aren't all BJR!).  I was glad to see Jamie and Claire and Fergus especially being who they are, being recognizable.  And special shout out to BPC's hot mess of an ensemble.  Well done Terry.  Comparing it to Jamie's, Dougla's and to the other Lords/generals was just fascinating.  It was all wrong, all out of place, just as he was.  

Edited June 11, 2016 by morgan

[abbey]

Being a book reader I too thought it was going to be Rupert who was going to die.  Especially seeing the clip a couple of days ago which showed  Angus bringing a wounded Rupert into the makeshift field hospital and insisting Claire tend to him right away.  Completely missed the telegraphing of Angus's death.  So sad.  Hated seeing Dougal killing the wounded British soldiers, especially Lt. Foster.  Went from loving Dougal for his bravery for checking out the bog to hating him for killing those defenseless soldiers.  Undoubtedly happened in history but so hard, at least for me, to see it on screen.  Kudos to all the actors for another well done episode.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I really enjoyed this one. And I don't know if they're doing this on purpose, or if there are documents or whatever, from which they gleaned their information, but more and more, I am asking myself, why, why, WHY, the highlanders would follow this popinjay, jackassed peacock Charles Stuart, and fight for him. He's so fucking unlikeable and whiny and narcisstic. And I wonder if his wanting the Brititsh wounded to be tended FIRST, because he will have to deal with them after victory, is fact or fiction.

Since Angus is a made up character and not in the buiks, and I too, didn't see his death telegraphed, I didn't expect him to survive this season, but I also didn't expect him to die this episode. Though I kept saying, 'what aboot the cannon blast? Where's his wound?' over and over again, and that Claire only checked his head and eyes, and not the rest of him. And even if she did, would she have been able to do anything?

As for Rupert, I kept thinking, no, no; unless they were deviating from the buik, he wasn't going to die here. Though when Ross drew the blanket over his friend's face (I'm blanking on his name), I thought it was Rupert at first, because of the beard.

Not enough words to convey how uberly HAWT and SEXAY Sam looked in this episode. And that final kiss before he went to battle? Oh my, oh my, oh my...the butterflies in me tummy were going bonkers! And the way he looked at Claire. 

Me: Siiiiiiiiiigh.

Poor Lieutenant Foster.  They really have turned Dougal into a villain here. And I won't lie. I derived great pleasure in his humiliation.

Poor wee Fergus. The actor did a phenomenal job with just his eyes, when Claire was comforting him. 

And when Claire handed over that carafe for Jamie to piss in, and the bet with the Redcoat, I grinned.  Then that fop, Charles "Mark Me" Stuart had to barge in and ruin the moment.

[ElsieH]

I kept wondering why Jamie wouldn't have just let Charles lead, knowing how things end up just before Culloden. If he knows the rebellion will die with Charles, then why not let him go first into battle? I suppose it's perhaps because he's still telling himself there is a chance they can win and he won't be branded a traitor forever. But I dunno, as unlikeable as Charles has been, it just seemed like an easy solution to a difficult problem to let him die in battle. And I agree about Dougal, I know he was a jerk in the books, but I don't recall him being a psychopathic jerk. Killing the Lt. just seemed weird, as his raging in the hospital at the wounded British. I know where they are trying to go, but I liked it better in the books.

 

Also, with only three episodes left, how are they going to cover everything in Edinburgh? Wasn't the church siege the last thing that happened before the big battle at Culloden? If that is next week, when do we get back to Edinburgh and BJR, Alex, and Mary?

Edited June 11, 2016 by ElsieH

[WatchrTina]

THE GOOD

The new credits continue to delight me and they were particularly appropriate for this episode with their glimpses of battle and redcoats and snare drums.  I loved how well they segued right into the Scottish pipes and English drums of the title card.

I liked that Claire took the pike from the corpse in the opening scene.  I’d have been annoyed if she had just let a weapon go to waste, given how poorly equipped the Jacobites are.

I love that the actor playing the head of the MacDonald Clan is the same guy we met in ep 110 (By the Pricking of My Thumbs) – the guy who fought the “duel” with the Duke of Sandringham.  I just hope he doesn’t hold a grudge against Jamie for wounding all three of his sons back then.

I’m pleased with the story arc they gave Bonnie Prince Charlie in this episode.  He’s still naïve (“Hey let’s just negotiate with General Cope instead of fighting him”) and has poor judgment (“Treat the British wounded first”) but he also displays valor in this episode.  Or rather he tries to display valor.  I believed that he fully intended to lead the charge at Prestonpans.  Furthermore that throw-away line about his father not really liking him was interesting and lends credence to his desire to prove himself (though it’s probably NOT the sort of thing he would really have said in that time and that place.)  BTW, I did a bit of research on the battle and according to Wikipedia, “The wounded and prisoners were given the best care possible at Prince Charles Stuart's insistence.”  I still think it was a bit much to have him say that the British soldiers would be treated first but it’s nice to know that his treating the prisoners well is in line with history (assuming that bit is true and is not propaganda spread by the Jacobites following the battle.)

I thought it was a nice, subtle bit of writing that when Angus was being such a jerk to the two cotters from Lallybroch (more on that below) Dougal is so demoralized he can’t even be bothered to discipline his own men.  But when Jamie speaks up, Angus immediately stands down (which he didn’t do when Murtagh spoke up).  It’s clear Angus knows who is really in charge.

The private talk between Jamie and Dougal leading to his solo ride into the bog was practically perfect in every way.  Love those two playing off one another.

And speaking of Dougal’s ride – I said after the pilot episode that Graham McTavish sits a horse with amazing poise and he does so again here. 

I LOVED Angus’s reaction to when the prince introduced himself.  “Are you really?” Just perfect, as was Rupert’s schooling him in the proper etiquette when meeting a prince – a perfect reprisal of Rupert’s etiquette lesson to Angus in the farewell scene of episode 116.

I liked the Dougal story arc of this episode.  He is low when he’s by the fire – probably resenting the fact that he’s not invited when Jamie is called to meet with the prince.  Then he has his moment of glory in the bog, gets a hug from the prince and is feeling so good he can afford a bit of self-effacing humor, joking about shitting his pants.  Then he fights like a true warrior in the battle.  But then his dark side comes out in plain view – first to us, the viewers (No!  Not Lt. Foster!) and then to everyone, including the Prince. Finally he comes full circle.  Having lost the admiration of the prince, he is beholden to Jamie for still having a role in the army, and he resents like hell that Jamie played him the same way Colum used to.  That was just perfect.  Now we know what Dougal is capable of and what smolders just beneath the surface of that character.

The actor who played Anderson (the guy who led them past the bog on a secret trail) was well cast.  According to Wikipedia there really was a Jacobite Lieutenant Anderson who “was a local farmer's son who knew the area well and convinced Murray that he knew an excellent route through the marshlands.”

Now I understand the introduction of the two Lallybroch cotters in the last episode (they are the two who were beaten for letting Dougal through with his dozen “recruits” and I think they are also the same two guys that Claire sees playing with Fergus.)  I’m glad the show introduced some characters for us to care about (even a little) when one them falls in battle – though I had assumed they were “red shirts” (doomed characters) from the get-go.  Seeing one of them die lulled me into a false sense of security.  I knew Rupert was unlikely to succumb to his wounds because I’ve read the book and I assumed Angus was going to be revealed to have a wound he was keeping secret but I did not expect him to die.  (I know others have said it was telegraphed but I missed it.)

Jamie and Murtagh’s talk about the anonymity of death in battle was good, as was the foreshadowing of Culloden.  Murtagh says something about how no one will remember the individual men who die in a random battle of a war (like Prestonpans)  -- not unless there are huge losses, when hundreds of men die together (like, alas, Culloden.) Chilling bit of foreshadowing there.

Claire’s farewells were all perfect. 

• Angus demands a kiss (and foreshadows his own death).
• Rupert shows he’s the smarter of the two, refusing to say goodbye lest he tempt fate (just like he refused to bequeath his goods to Angus, lest it temp the devil.)  He was right, wasn’t he?
• Claire & Murtagh each think only of Jamie.
• Jamie & Claire – aw.  That goodbye kiss and the fierce look they gave each other -- sigh. I just love those two.

The drums and pipes before the battle. Chilling. 'Nuff said.

That one woman starting to pray aloud when she heard the battle sounds was perfect.  I’m not religious at all and I know Claire isn’t either, but I thought it was downright odd that none of those Highlanders resorted to prayer under such circumstances, so I was really glad when she spoke up.

The sound effects of the Highlander running toward camera, invisible in the mist was great.

The hand-to-hand fighting choreography, the mist, the whole thing was really well done.  That’s about the most gritty, close-up, fighting I think I’ve ever seen on film.  That one redcoat cowering on the ground in fear was particularly good.  I scoffed at first at the use of cannons in the fight (how could they know where to aim in that mist?) but according to Wikipedia cannons were used so I’ll whistle past that.

Did you see that stuntman do a backflip off his horse after Angus shoots him?  Nice!

I do love the way this show can pivot from mood to mood to mood.  The best example is when a concerned Claire spots the hoofprint on Jamie’s back and orders him to piss in a jar (nice little domestic moment there) followed by Jamie deciding to lighten the mood in the room with a literal “pissing contest”, which is the source of possibly the only laugh in the whole episode, especially when the prince walks in on it.  But the mood swings quickly again as the prince declares that a “victory” over his father’s English subjects gives him no pleasure.  BPC is actually doing a good job being gracious in victory there for a few minutes – until Mad Dog Dougal comes blustering in and ruins it all – and then the scene pivots again into a battle of wits that Jamie wins.  I kind of loved that little smile on Jamie’s face when Dougal acknowledged that Jamie had just played him like Colum used to do.

 

THE BAD

I don’t think I buy Angus acting like such a jerk to those two cotters from Lallybroch when they were sitting by the fire and he was spitting ale at one of them.  I think I understand why it was put in – so we can appreciate them coming to terms after the battle when the one is standing over the body of the other and tells Angus “we did not run.”  And I know Angus has been established in the past as a bit of dick.  But spitting ale on a guy you don’t know very well seems out of character even for him, and the other guy’s failure to react to it at first seemed out of character for a Highlander.

That horse of Dougal’s was just a bit too calm under “fire” from the British troops.  At one point he even takes a bite out of some grass.  Either he’s really well trained or all those gunshot splashes were CGI and not special effect squibs going off around him.  Either way, it was a bit unrealistic for him to be unaffected by all that gunfire.

Fergus being annoying during Claire’s instructions to the volunteer nurses was . . . annoying.  I don’t have any young boys in my life – are they really that incapable of sitting still for two minutes?

When the two cotters were promising to look after one another’s families if anything happened to one of them I thought that was great, but when one told the other that he had some gold hidden on his land and “bequeathed” it to the other, I couldn’t help but think, “Uh, shouldn’t your FAMILY inherit that?”  And then did he actually refer to his wife as “She Devil?”  Not cool, dude.  Not cool.

Okay, can we talk about the editing?  The time-line gets really messed up when they start cutting from the battle to the aid station.  It suggests that those two things were happening simultaneously and of course they could not.  How, exactly, could that one Lallybroch cotter carry his friend back for assistance while the battle still raged?  Did he go by the secret path in the woods (the one you can’t hardly find without a local guide) or did he march across the impassible bog with his friend’s body on his back?  The redcoat prisoners arriving seeking aid while the battle was (seemingly) still going on was particularly jarring.  I presume we are supposed to view all the battle scenes as flashbacks (like the ones Angus and Rupert clearly have after they arrive at the first aid station) but it doesn’t read that way to me.  Instead it seems like the wounded soldiers are magically transported from the field of battle to the aid station while the battle is raging.

I mostly loved the Fergus/Claire reunion after the battle but that one line “Don’t’ tell me that” rang false to me.  Claire of all people knows the importance of letting soldiers talk about what happened to them if they feel the need to talk and Fergus, as a child, is particularly in need of her sympathetic ear.  I think that line of dialog was a slight mistake in an otherwise lovely moment.

I didn’t like Rupert’s song with the Lallybroch cotter.  It sounded too much like “Down Down Down in Goblin Town” from The Hobbit.

I wish Claire had not said “That means I’m right about Culloden.”  She should have said “I might be right about Culloden” . . . or something that leaves them a bit of hope.

 

THE UGLY

I know that prolonged focus on the decaying, maggot-ridden corpse in the opening scene had a purpose. I assume it was to this episode what a “memento mori” is to a painting – a reminder of the inevitability of death and of the stakes our characters are facing in the coming battle.  But still – really ugly.

Mon Dieu!  Prince Charlie’s coat.  I can’t WAIT to hear Terry Dresbach talk about it.  I assume she made him look a bit ridiculous on purpose.  The actor tweeted that he is “dressed like a pack of shortbread biscuits.”

Dougal’s murder of Lt. Foster.  Damn.  That was ugly.  Now Lt. Foster, HE was pretty – stupid, but pretty. (If you just lost a battle and are lying wounded and in need of assistance, maybe don’t lecture one of the victors about the hopelessness of his cause – especially a battle-drunk guy you’ve just seen deliver multiple coup-de-gras to the wounded.)

Angus’ death.  So sad.  So ugly.  Did I hear him say “Claire . . . Save me”?  Heart=breaking.

 

OTHER

Do you think Jamie actually passed on to Claire the BPC’s directive to treat the English first?  I don’t think he’d ever expect her to follow such a directive (he even admitted that to the Prince, which I thought was rather bold of him) and we all know perfectly well that Jamie knows better than to try that lord-and-master BS with Claire; but it might have been prudent for him to make sure Claire knew the prince had that expectation.  In the end I guess it doesn’t matter because when Claire is tending the wounded she goes into professional triage mode and acts accordingly.  I’m glad Angus snapped her out of that because Rupert is “family” and deserved her attention before that random redcoat.

Someone really ought to invent a drinking game based on Jamie’s knee-porn.  Every time a kilted Jamie props his leg up on a step and gives us a good keek at those knees, drink!

Edited June 11, 2016 by WatchrTina

[bearcatfan]

5 hours ago, morgan said:

I think for me Angus' death was telegraphed but still missed.  When he had so many more lines than Rupert early on I was surprised thinking Rupert would die soon and get the bulk of them.  And then when we saw Rupert's injury and I assumed he was dying here rather than in the church next week, again I thought it was weird how much more Angus got than Rupert.  Then when Angus died instead it all clicked into place.  

Exactly. Plus he had asked Claire for a kiss at the beginning. In hindsight, I should have realized but I didn't because I was so sure Rupert was going to die.

[bearcatfan]

39 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Fergus being annoying during Claire’s instructions to the volunteer nurses was . . . annoying.  I don’t have any young boys in my life – are they really that incapable of sitting still for two minutes?

Some of them are.

 

41 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

That horse of Dougal’s was just a bit too calm under “fire” from the British troops.  At one point he even takes a bite out of some grass.  Either he’s really well trained or all those gunshot splashes were CGI and not special effect squibs going off around him.  Either way, it was a bit unrealistic for him to be unaffected by all that gunfire.

I seem to recall during the podcast of the episode in Season 1 with the duel that they couldn't actually fire the guns, even with blanks, because it spooked the horses too much and created a dangerous situation. Probably the same here.

[morgan]

40 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

.

 

Fergus being annoying during Claire’s instructions to the volunteer nurses was . . . annoying.  I don’t have any young boys in my life – are they really that incapable of sitting still for two minutes?

 

Someone really ought to invent a drinking game based on Jamie’s knee-porn.  Every time a kilted Jamie props his leg up on a step and gives us a good keek at those knees, drink!

So much to like about your post, WatchrTina, but I had to pull out these two points. First, as a mom of a 14 and 12 year old boy, yes, that is completely accurate in my experience and I chuckled when I was watching the episode. It's one thing if a kid is focused on something they are interested in.  Quite another if they are where they definitely don't want to be!  Lol

As for the second about Jamie's knees.  Hell yes!!!!

[morgan]

Watchrtina also meant to add, my impression about Ross/Kincaid was that he was telling him about the money not to give him, but to use (or give directly) to his wife.  

[ulkis]

3 hours ago, ElsieH said:

I kept wondering why Jamie wouldn't have just let Charles lead, knowing how things end up just before Culloden. If he knows the rebellion will die with Charles, then why not let him go first into battle? I suppose it's perhaps because he's still telling himself there is a chance they can win and he won't be branded a traitor forever. But I dunno, as unlikeable as Charles has been, it just seemed like an easy solution to a difficult problem to let him die in battle. And I agree about Dougal, I know he was a jerk in the books, but I don't recall him being a psychopathic jerk. Killing the Lt. just seemed weird, as his raging in the hospital at the wounded British. I know where they are trying to go, but I liked it better in the books.

I wonder myself why Jamie just didn't tell someone "hey, I didn't sign this, my signature was forged"? If he didn't go and fight with the Jacobites it would lend credence to his claim.

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I really enjoyed this one. And I don't know if they're doing this on purpose, or if there are documents or whatever, from which they gleaned their information, but more and more, I am asking myself, why, why, WHY, the highlanders would follow this popinjay, jackassed peacock Charles Stuart, and fight for him. He's so fucking unlikeable and whiny and narcisstic. And I wonder if his wanting the Brititsh wounded to be tended FIRST, because he will have to deal with them after victory, is fact or fiction.

Well, who knows, he might not have been like that in history. But actually aren't they technically fighting to make his father king? I'm not clear on that. I mean, yeah, Charles would be king eventually but they call his father "King James", so. I'm guessing he would be put on the throne first? But yeah, his personality (unfortunately) was probably less important to them than the fact that he was a Stuart.

I wish Claire had not said “That means I’m right about Culloden.”  She should have said “I might be right about Culloden” . . . or something that leaves them a bit of hope.

@WatchrTina yeah, this line struck me as odd too. Would she have felt better if they had lost the battle? I think the line should have been something like, "but this doesn't necessarily mean we can change Culloden" or I don't know, but it didn't make sense. They know she's right about Culloden, that's what they've been trying to change.

In the books, Murtaugh didn't know Claire was from the future, right?

[Bort]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Fergus being annoying during Claire’s instructions to the volunteer nurses was . . . annoying.  I don’t have any young boys in my life – are they really that incapable of sitting still for two minutes?

Having just returned from vacation with my five nephews aged 12-16, I can vehemently answer yes. Dear god, yes. I was in a car with them on a four-hour day trip and it was like being trapped in a ball with rabid hamsters.

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Someone really ought to invent a drinking game based on Jamie’s knee-porn.  Every time a kilted Jamie props his leg up on a step and gives us a good keek at those knees, drink!

I've already started one for every time Prince Charles says, "Mark me." CHUG!

[Nidratime]

This episode reminded me so much of Kenneth Branagh' s Henry V -- at least in terms of the build up and battle scenes.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Nidratime
Miss-typed a name.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Outlander Gets Bogged Down In War

The Jacobite Rebellion is on, and the only thing standing in the way of their first military victory is some stupid mud.

[Archery]

3 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Fergus being annoying during Claire’s instructions to the volunteer nurses was . . . annoying.  I don’t have any young boys in my life – are they really that incapable of sitting still for two minutes?

Yes.  Absolutely yes.  So much yes.  And also, he's probably bored out of his mind after several days in camp.  The men were bored, and they had beer and whiskey to distract them.

2 hours ago, ulkis said:

I wonder myself why Jamie just didn't tell someone "hey, I didn't sign this, my signature was forged"? If he didn't go and fight with the Jacobites it would lend credence to his claim

Jamie could show up on King George's doorstep with a bus full of nuns to swear that he was innocent and it wouldn't matter.  He was a dead man, and Lallybroch was forfeit, the minute that list was published.

2 hours ago, ulkis said:

And I don't know if they're doing this on purpose, or if there are documents or whatever, from which they gleaned their information, but more and more, I am asking myself, why, why, WHY, the highlanders would follow this popinjay, jackassed peacock Charles Stuart, and fight for him. He's so fucking unlikeable and whiny and narcisstic.

It's the concept of The Divine Right of Kings.  It wasn't a democracy, and people didn't judge on personality.  If you were perceived to be of the direct royal bloodline, you were entitled to the throne, and the people who believed you were would sacrifice everything to see you in your rightful, God-ordained place.  People followed and fought for Mary, Queen of Scots and she was a real piece of work.  In fact, I would venture to guess that every warrior-king or queen in these religious-based power struggles was unlikable, whiny, definitely narcissistic, and basically sh*tty people, but they could raise armies to fight for them.  Certainly, being raised from jump under a thwarted-rightful-king narrative like Charles Edward Stuart was would produce this personality.

I love how Claire could not stop hugging Fergus.  And Jamie's ability to think on his feet is a thing of beauty.  He's only 25 years old. 

Jamie and Dougal's conversation about the bog cracked me up:  "So, 125 feet?" "Eh, thereabouts."  I totally think Jamie manipulated Dougal into taking on that task.

[junebug34]

2 hours ago, Nidratime said:

This episode reminded me so much of Henry Branagh' s Henry V -- at least in terms of the build up and battle scenes.

Once more into the breach----- that would be Kenneth Branagh, I think.

[Nidratime]

2 hours ago, junebug34 said:

Once more into the breach----- that would be Kenneth Branagh, I think.

Yes, I meant to type Kenneth. I was typing fast and my brain didn't keep up. (Will go back and fix it.)

ETA: I just wanted to note that I love the scene where the Highlanders are charging into the dense fog -- everything's quiet -- and the way they come upon the lone British sentry who is cut down. Then, cue the rampaging sound of the attack.

Also, Bonnie Prince Charlie really did wear that outfit.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/William_Mosman_-_Prince_Charles_Edward_Stuart,_1720_-_1788._Eldest_son_of_Prince_James_Francis_Edward_Stuart_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg

Edited June 12, 2016 by Nidratime

[Petunia846]

So, slightly more articulate now that I've seen it twice. The two things that really killed me were the bow that Jamie gives Claire before he leaves for battle and then the way Rupert sits back down on the bed cuddling Angus' sword like a kid with a teddy bear. The kiss before the bow was all they had to do, all we needed to see of Jamie and Claire saying good-bye, but then he steps back and freaking bows to her and I just died. The love there, the respect between them, the tension of knowing they win, but not knowing who will still die. Gah. And then poor Rupert. Such an amazing, more sophisticated way to illustrate grief more than someone screaming and crying. I really appreciated how quiet the death scene actual was (other than the noises of dying). No one said anything during or after, it's all just shock.

Overall I didn't enjoy this episode as much as last week, but that doesn't mean it wasn't good. It's just now you realize this is actually the beginning of the end and everything we've been dreading is really coming, and I just can't deal with it. It's all going to be so sad, the deaths and the separation. Ugg.

[AheadofStraight]

As a book reader I was expecting Rupert to die as I was ASSuming that maybe they were bypassing it happening in the church and condensing the story. I didn't expect Angus to die because I thought all the nice-nice with Claire was setting up for Angus to be the witness later and give Jamie the hour he requests.

In real life, did BPC offer to lead the men into battle? Knowing how he has a picnic during the Culloden battle, it seemed out of character to me and that they were being too generous to him. (But I also don't know the real details!)

Is this the part in the book where Jamie and Claire have sex because fighting gives him a cockstand? I wouldn't have minded seeing some action. :)  The scene before he left and the way he looked at her...good lawd, I'm gonna be a puddle of goo at the end of this season.

[chocolatetruffle]

So this episode was kinda "meh" for me.  I don't know if it's because I saw Me Before You in the afternoon and was really emotionally drained when I watched this, or if there was some fundamental emotional connection that was missing for me.  But I felt emotionally detached - like I was watching an interesting story but not really involved with the characters.  

There were a couple of moments when I did feel a strong emotional connection.  The battle in the fog was riveting and so tense because death could literally come out of nowhere in the form of a sword or dirk.  You couldn't "see" your enemy until they were on top of you - and seeing wee Fergus confused and panic-sticken was gut-wrenching.  And that brings me to the other moment that got to me, and that was when Claire saw Fergus after the battle.  Loved her relief and wanting to throttle him at the same time (as did I!).  That scene between the two of them was really well done.  And finally, I loved the Dougal scene w/ the Lieutenant and was really pissed when Dougal killed him. Damn that was beyond cold - even for Dougal.

Overall though, it wasn't a bad episode (the acting was terrific, as usual), but I'm ready to move on to the next one.

Edited June 12, 2016 by chocolatetruffle
one additional thought

[nodorothyparker]

There was a lot to like this episode.  The staging and cinematography of the battle scenes was absolutely stunning.  I loved everything about the early scenes of both armies sitting around bored in sight of each other but unable to figure out how to do anything about it and both Jaime talking Dougal into the test ride and the ride itself.  While some of the bickering of the higher ups did feel more than a little tedious, it was as important as last week's training montages in showing what the situation with the prince's forces was.  We got the background on their early successes and the groundwork for at least partially why they won't be successful.  This episode also did a good job of making it clear that while Charles Stuart may have been willing to dress the part in his ridiculous tartan costume he saw the highlanders as completely expendable in pursuit of his larger goal.  He's really lucky he dropped that particular truth on Jaime instead of Dougal or any of the other potential hotheads or he might not have lived to see the battle.  The amount of maneuvering Jaime was doing was terrific as the book and show versions of the character continue to merge nicely.

Nothing was really a failure but some of this did have a certain paint by numbers quality as it meditated on war, preparing for war, and what it all means in the scope of individual lives lost.  Like last season, we know there's very little good or happy coming between now and the finale so there's also a certain weariness and weight setting in.  

I'm not as bothered by Dougal's actions as lot of people seem to be.  Delivering the mercy stroke and cleaning up the casualties like he was initially doing in the battle's aftermath was a fact of life when men could lay on battlefields for hours or days.  No, his killing of Foster wasn't honorable by any measure, but it didn't feel like it was out of character or came out of left field.  While what he was saying about the Scots being doomed was undeniably true considering the main body of the English army wasn't even in the country yet when this was going on, the man really should have known better than to run his mouth at that particular moment when blood lust was running high.  From Dougal's perspective, every Englishman they save is one more Englishman their little outmanned and outgunned army is going to have to fight down the line.  He also has to know that because what they're doing is considered treason, they can't realistically expect any quarter if the tables are turned.  I don't have to love it, but I get it.

I have a great geek love for any historical fiction that shows you how expressions originated.  Pissing contest, indeed.

Edited June 12, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Summer]

After the battle Jaime looked soooo much like Wentworth Prison Jaime to me, I literally was taken aback a few times....

Enjoy any time Fergus is on the screen.  Loved when he balked at being left behind and the pride on his face when Jaime said he doesn't trust anyone else to watch after his wife.  That kid is adorable and such a good little actor.  

The kiss and the stare just before battle was meh to me (well, the stare was pretty nice)  but IMHO it was nothing compared to the massive kiss before he left with McQuarry's men in The Watch...holy moly that was hot! 

I have to admit there is a small wee part of me that likes BPC.  He just seems so out of his element and I like how he calls Jaime "James" and seems to respect his opinion.  That outfit tho.....

[Clawdette]

In his podcast, Ron says that Angus "took the bullet" (my words) in the story arc that was supposed to go to Willie.  They chose Angus instead of Rupert because they felt that Rupert without Angus would be a sadder story going forward.  Ron is still bitter about not being able to use the Willie character.

[Squirrely]

Dougal shat himself! Haha, that scene killed me. I loved how he calmly picked up his bullet damaged hat and placed it back in his head, then exited as though he were in no great hurry. Of course Jamie manipulated him into testing the "meadow." But I think the main purpose was actually in helping Dougal to rise in BPC's esteem. Though that turned out to be quite short-lived. 

As noted above, Jamie had no choice. Forgery or not, his name is on that document and he is a traitor. It's either win the war or run away, abandoning his clan, his people, and his honor. So there's no choice for him. That's why he won't go through with slashing BPC's throat before Colloden. 

Oh, Fergus. I wish that adorable little actor could magically age at least 10 years before next season. He is a gem. 

[peacefrog]

I loved this. Jamie was fantastic as was all the relationships shown. Loved him with Dougal mostly. 

I had a feeling Rupert's death was the event they said was moved to this episode as I don't think they filmed Falkirk. I did figure it out that it would be Angus though about 30 minutes in. I don't think Rupert will die unless it's at Culloden. 

Murdoch's speech was so heavy and so foreboding. His loss(if they do it) will be devastating. The end is coming and it will require tissues. I feel this back half is so good compared to 1b and 2a. So happy it seems back on track. I could use more J & C quiet moments but what they do have conveys their connection well. 

[Andorra]

They did film Falkirk. At least the church scene, because it's in next week's preview, so all the talk about chosing Angus over Rupert IMO is just trying to confuse us. I think Rupert is going to die next week. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm surprised that it's even a question that Jamie manipulated Dougal to do the ride into the bog. I thought it was very obvious. The way Jamie said it, looked off in the distance toward the Redcoats, his cocking his eyebrow at Dougal. I think if Jamie asked him to do it, Dougal would probably accuse Jamie of taking pity on him or something. This way, Dougal 'volunteers' and saves face, without Jamie having to give this to him. I'm sure Jamie knew this would be the thing to get Dougal out of his...funk, for the lack of a better word.

And yes, that outfit that Bonnie Prince Charlie wore in the episode is what he wore in real life; just Googling and reading about Culloden and Himself, you have paintings of him wearing that "Englush biscuit coat."  The only thing that's different is he's not wearing that curly, whirly wig that he donned in most paintings of him. 

I don't find him naive at all. But a wily schemer. Just like Jamie described him when they were in Paris.

It's possible that Rupert may die in the battle instead of the Church, since I think we didn't see him or Dougal in the buik until the church scene. And since the show had them show up before that, it's possible.

So not looking forward to that sadistic piece of raping shit wedding Mary. I hated and loathed the scene in the buik where Jamie had to be civil to his rapist and stand up at the wedding. UGH.

[morgan]

The only good thing about that wedding between BJR and Mary is that BJR isn't long for this world when it happens.  I go on to head cannon that Mary finds Alex 2.0 and finally has a happy life.  Poor girl.  

[TaurusRose]

I very much enjoyed this episode.  I love the integration of history and fiction.  Practically everything about Prestonpans was well done: the tone was full of tension and foreboding; you could feel and taste the quiet desperation and sense of urgency weighing down on the Highlanders, not to mention the reality of knowing one would have to go on no matter what conveyed by the warriors and the women left behind at the field hospital.   I am always awed by the costumes and set design in Outlander.  Bravo, to everyone working in these areas.  HRH Prince Charles is an idiot and his attitude toward the Highlanders (albeit only voiced to Jamie) is beyond offensive.  He talks about "the Scots" as if he is not one.  I wish Dougal had heard him reveal his true feelings about the English and their worth, maybe then Dougal wouldn't have been so willing to curry favor with the popinjay prince.  

Jamie's knees.  Oh. My. Stars.  How can a woman fully grown be filled with lust at the sight of a man's knees????  Moving beyond the shallow, I am so impressed by his deft handling of the men in his command, especially Dougal, the uber-alpha male.  I totally agree with the person who said Dougal cuts a fine figure sitting on his horse.  The man may be maddening, but he is definitely a fine example of masculinity.  Angus's meeting the prince was perfect; the man is incorrigible no matter the situation.  LOL  Did anyone really wear tartan the color of Charles's ANYWHERE, much less on a battlefield?  I really liked Claire in this episode, she was most certainly Jamie's wingman. This couple is formidable and well-matched in every setting.  I also like the pacing of this half of the season.  I'm quite content to watch events unfold slowly because even though we know history's verdict, we don't know how the showrunners are going to present the events up to Culloden on screen and the suspense of that is part of the fun for me.  The only part of the story that doesn't quite work for me is Fergus.  He is a bit of a pain, IMO, and I'm not impressed by the actor's work in portraying him either.  Sure, he's cute, but I don't think he's a great talent especially when surrounded by so many actors who are.

I wasn't surprised that Angus was killed, but it was still a bit of a shock to see him die.  What an awful death.  Jamie and Claire's post battle reunion.  Oh. My. Stars.  They were literally eating each other up with their eyes, then Claire is all business wanting Jamie to pee in a jar.  LOL  Got to love her.

2 hours ago, peacefrog said:

Murdoch's speech was so heavy and so foreboding. His loss(if they do it) will be devastating. The end is coming and it will require tissues. I feel this back half is so good compared to 1b and 2a. So happy it seems back on track. I could use more J & C quiet moments but what they do have conveys their connection well. 

Murtagh is one of my favorite supporting characters.  I will hate to lose him and the role he plays in Jamie's life.

5 hours ago, chocolatetruffle said:

 And finally, I loved the Dougal scene w/ the Lieutenant and was really pissed when Dougal killed him. Damn that was beyond cold - even for Dougal.

I wasn't surprised by Dougal's actions after the battle.  He has shown he is capable of brutality since the beginning and his hatred of the English, although understandable, is still fanatical.  

10 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

The kiss before the bow was all they had to do, all we needed to see of Jamie and Claire saying good-bye, but then he steps back and freaking bows to her and I just died. The love there, the respect between them, the tension of knowing they win, but not knowing who will still die.

All of this.  The intensity of the gaze between them at this moment was full of so many feelings I can't even begin to articulate them.

22 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I’d have been annoyed if she had just let a weapon go to waste, given how poorly equipped the Jacobites are.

When the two cotters were promising to look after one another’s families if anything happened to one of them I thought that was great, but when one told the other that he had some gold hidden on his land and “bequeathed” it to the other, I couldn’t help but think, “Uh, shouldn’t your FAMILY inherit that?”  And then did he actually refer to his wife as “She Devil?”  Not cool, dude.  Not cool.

I didn’t like Rupert’s song with the Lallybroch cotter.  It sounded too much like “Down Down Down in Goblin Town” from The Hobbit.

Dougal’s murder of Lt. Foster.  Damn.  

This is one of the things I admire about Claire, she is practical and generally keeps a clear head in the midst of insanity.

I thought Ross (or was it his friend?) revealed where the gold was hidden to ease the burden of looking out for his family.  I'm afraid I don't understand why you dislike the she-devil remark.  They sang songs in The Hobbit?  I'm afraid I tuned singing out in those movies.   

Lt. Foster seemed like a decent sort, but he wasn't a particular stand-out for me.  What episode was he in?  What did he do?  

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I have a great geek love for any historical fiction that shows you how expressions originated.  Pissing contest, indeed.

I love this.  The pissing contest was another example of Jamie's ability to bring opposing sides together if even for a moment.

Edited June 12, 2016 by taurusrose
Formatting. Yes, I'm that anal.

[Petunia846]

Foster was the guy in The Rent who was fixing something in the Scottish village and tried to talk to Claire and make sure she was okay. Then at the end of the episode he came back and asked her again if the clan guys were holding her against her will and he took her and Dougal to the other place where she had lunch with all the British soldiers and eventually ran into BJR. That was The Garrison Commander.

And oh, yes, I forgot to mention the knees. I don't know when it started but I think my heart skips a beat or something every time one of the guys props a leg up and we get some knee action. Of all things! I feel ridiculous, but it's awesome.

[TaurusRose]

1 minute ago, Petunia846 said:

And oh, yes, I forgot to mention the knees. I don't know when it started but I think my heart skips a beat or something every time one of the guys props a leg up and we get some knee action. Of all things! I feel ridiculous, but it's awesome.

Heh.  Don't worry.  I believe you're in good company. LOL   And thanks for refreshing my memory about Foster.  I guess he didn't look like the same guy to me.  

[lianau]

34 minutes ago, morgan said:

The only good thing about that wedding between BJR and Mary is that BJR isn't long for this world when it happens.  I go on to head cannon that Mary finds Alex 2.0 and finally has a happy life.  Poor girl.  

isn't she still marrying that rich jewish guy which ends up preventing baby Denys from having a great military career  due to the Isaacs tagged onto his name .

[Petunia846]

Yeah, I didn't really recognize him either until Dougal said his name.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, peacefrog said:

Murdoch's speech was so heavy and so foreboding. 

16 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Murdoch is one of my favorite supporting characters.  I will hate to lose him and the role he plays in Jamie's life.

 

 

It's Murtagh, not Murdoch.

[morgan]

5 minutes ago, lianau said:

isn't she still marrying that rich jewish guy which ends up preventing baby Denys from having a great military career  due to the Isaacs tagged onto his name .

I see a need for a re-read in my future...

[WatchrTina]

Quote

that outfit that Bonnie Prince Charlie wore in the episode is what he wore in real life; just Googling and reading about Culloden and Himself, you have paintings of him wearing that "Englush biscuit coat."

Weel, you have to take with a grain of salt that he actually wore that in real life.  Terry has talked about this in her costume blog -- sometimes people were painted in outfits that were created solely for the portrait.  She talked about that when she gave the sources for Claire's "pirate dress" (as some have named it) -- the dark one with white, puffy sleeves.  She can point to three paintings from the period in which rich women were painted wearing something like that, but it is also true that the look was an homage to a typically male ensemble and may actually never have been worn by anyone in public.  I think it's the same with that portrait of Prince Charles Stuart.  I wonder when it was painted.  The so-called clan tartans were mostly an invention of the Victorian era -- that's why TVJamie did not get married in the crimson "Fraser" tartan described in the book (the one I use for my avatar).  So that "Stuart" tartan the prince is wearing in that painting may not have even existed in 1745.  It's entirely possible that that portrait was painted long after the fact and the red Stuart plaid was purely the product of the artist's imagination or was dictated by the patron who commissioned the painting.  I'm looking forward to Terry and the ladies from FrockFlicks.com weighing in on this topic.

Edited June 12, 2016 by WatchrTina

[TaurusRose]

15 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It's Murtagh, not Murdoch.

Yes, I know that.  Brain was just following the previous post.  

[peacefrog]

It was a typo sorry. I do know his name.

[GHScorpiosRule]

54 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Yes, I know that.  Brain was just following the previous post.  

 

49 minutes ago, peacefrog said:

It was a typo sorry. I do know his name.

Just trying to be helpful; no snark intended.