S07.E04: Unforgiven

[VedaPierce]

She wanted to USE Sol. USE. she is such a selfish coward. Gross. 

[CofCinci]

52 minutes ago, RazzleberryPie said:

Meri is alone, because she has isolated herself for the past 25 years. She's made a lot of efforts  to put herself on a pedestal as the Alpa Wife, making sure the other wives and children know Meri is superior. She received more money, more time, more control,  more everything. 

I thjnk her intention was for them to envy her, but they just grew to resent and exclude her. You can't play Princess and then expect the people you called peasants to want to interact with you. 

She did it to herself. On purpose. I have no pity. 

But don't you know, a "painting" for each woman she maligned and took resources from should heal those wounds...

How long until Meri starts to sell her "art" on Twitter?

[ReadMeLattice]

Mariah apologized for the eyebrow comment and admitted that she's too angry to talk right now and she has to wait or she'll really lash out. She also said her mother must be going through a lot of pain and she knows she is adding to it by not immediately forgiving her. I thought all of that was quite mature. I expected something really different before I watched the episode. Except for one or two snarky comments, she was a lot kinder than I'd have been. I'd have played Meri the voicemail where she curses out my dad and says Sam is way hotter, richer,  and "better on all fucking levels," and that she'd leave my dad in a second for him, or shown her the banana blow job picture and said, "Really, Mom? This was your "friendship?" I think most people would. She was comparatively incredibly forgiving. Meri doesn't deserve it. 

[ReadMeLattice]

Also, millions of people are single with NO kids, single parents, coupled with kids, actual empty nesters, etc. Plenty of them have fulfilling jobs, hobbies, friends, travel, and extended family relationships. It's not like Meri is the first woman on earth whose daughter has gone to college. She's actually luckier than many in the number of people she has around. 

[Madding crowd]

Depression strikes people on all levels, with or without kids. I would never consider a woman sharing her husband with three other women lucky, but even lucky people have emotional issues. 

[trimthatfat]

1 hour ago, VedaPierce said:

Meri feeling rejected by the family is one of the consequences of her deceit. Does she not understand why Robyn may say no? Does Robyn not have a right to say no to taking her child on a 4 hour trip for 3 days?? Regardless of her past sneaky questionable behavior? How DARE she slam Robyn's door when Robyn denied her her child!! She is so damn entitled!!

also, if Meri got off her lazy ass, put away her phone, got out of her big, lonely, child-free house and got a job or volunteered at a shelter or something useful, she would meet tons of people, maybe even a nice new REAL man that she can then honestly change her life around with. And get out of this depression and depressing life. She's in a 500k prison. 

Maraiah felt bad for the eyebrow comment. She apologized in the end, can't really blame her for lashing out a bit.... She's human

I respect your thoughts, but I do not agree with them. So I will agree to disagree.

I'm not faulting Meri for feeling rejected. It's a highly emotional situation. She knows she's been rejected by the group and being told 'no' was just validation of that rejection. Yes, she did something stupid, but I'm not going to crucify her for it. Depression is a real illness and it shatters people. I truly believe Meri is depressed and I know from experience that telling someone who is depressed to get off of their 'lazy ass' won't lead to progress. I am sympathetic to Meri. Others are not and that's okay. *shrug* Robin has a right to say no (a decision I agree with) and Meri has a right to feel whatever she is feeling in that moment. I wish she had handled it differently, but she didn't. I don't like Meri and haven't liked her throughout this season, but I also think her pain is very legitimate. Just like Christine's pain is very legitimate. This is a lifestyle that is draining and most of the women involved are miserable. It's sad.

Mariah is a brat and I've always felt that way. Human or not.

This is the first and last episode I've watched in about two seasons. The whole show just makes me sad.

Edited May 31, 2016 by trimthatfat

[3girlsforus]

I don't know - I keep going back and forth on Mariah. I read one post that explains how she was a brat and I find myself agreeing. Then I read another explaining how she is in the right, and I agree with that too.

It does appear that Mariah is starting to see the downside of polygamy. She has a right to be angry for being sold a bill of goods all these years. She was raised to believe it's so wonderful and now it's clear the people who taught her it was wonderful were miserable even then. 

Here's my problem with Mariah's so-called 'critical thinking' epiphany. It seems that her "revelation" has only opened her eyes to things that affect her. She never had a problem with the public lifestyle of the tv show when it lined her mother's pockets so she could provide Mariah with all kinds of stuff and her expensive college education. As long as she only experienced the upside of the public eye, Mariah was fine. Then the inevitable negative attention came. Now Mariah is ticked. If it truly came from her 'critical thinking' epiphany, she would be mad at more than Meri and the catfish situation. She'd be ticked at Kody for treating her mother and the other wives (except Robyn) like shit. She'd be encouraging her mother to leave. She'd be mad at the catfish thing but see that it's a symptom of the emotional toll living in a polygamist relationship, especially with a narcissist like Kody, takes on someone. She could have compassion for her mother while being mad about the embarrassment. 

But instead Mariah is upset about the catfish thing blowing up and embarrassing her. That's legitimate, but because it seems to be the main thing she's upset about and she resorted to mean girl insults about something as stupid as eyebrows, She's acting more like a self-absorbed girl whose mad because someone messed with her world than someone who is thinking critically about a situation. 

[ghoulina]

12 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I thought Meri asking to take Sol was a bit strange, but Meri has had a close relationship with the kids and maybe thought Robyn might enjoy some time before the next baby without Prince Sol hanging around.

Meri, herself, specifically said that Sol had a special bond with Mariah. She wanted to use him as a human shield - a way to butter up her daughter and keep her from being too harsh at the same time. I don't think she cared at all about giving Robyn a break. 

 

12 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Just because you 'signed up' for something doesn't mean you have to live with something that hurts your soul.

You don't. You can leave. Meri should have made an effort to leave if she was that unhappy, before she had another "man" lined up. To me, this is not the same as an abused woman being unable to leave her situation. I don't think Kody has made any efforts to isolate or trap Meri. 

 

11 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

  I loved the reaction of the mothers when Caleb said he would be wearing "khakis".  Like who even wears khakis anymore much less to their own wedding? 

She said he was going to have a vest too. I imagine it would be something like this. I don't think that's too casual, especially for the more rustic, outdoor theme they're going with. I actually think it looks quite nice. 

[islandgal140]

Somewhere deep, deep, deep, deep, deep within me floats the milk of human kindness so yes on a subatomic level, I can admit to feeling a degree of pity for Meri. Her whole family is plyg, she was indoctrinated into the plyg life from birth and it is all she has ever known. Leaving it is no small thing.

I'm more frustrated with Meri than I am mad. The helpless victim narrative is just not one I am ever gonna buy. Never. Ever. Yes, she was a victim but I feel she is lying about what her feelings were for Sam and what she hoped would happen. I do believe there is such a thing as having an emotional affair and Meri, did in fact engage in one.  And it seriously has gotten worse as the season has progressed. I felt like she went from semi-admitting that it was an inappropriate relationship and she enjoyed the attentions of a man ep1 to the latest one when she was just trying to make platonic a friendship and it went horribly wrong somehow. She has gotten progressively less culpable and more innocent as the season continues. The thing is I don't know if she is just lying to the audience in order to save face or she is just starting to believe her own lies.  The latter is entirely possible, given these people's capacity for self delusion.

I am frustrated and mad that she has that sucky ass therapist that she probably isn't even completely honest with so if she is depressed it isn't likely that she would receive effective treatment. 

LOL! at Kody hoping the new princess would arrive pre-January 1, for the tax benefit. Can you imagine the raised eyebrows at the IRS office when someone claims 18 children as dependents? I wonder if they have ever been audited?

[Madding crowd]

You don't. You can leave. Meri should have made an effort to leave if she was that unhappy, before she had another "man" lined up. To me, this is not the same as an abused woman being unable to leave her situation. I don't think Kody has made any efforts to isolate or trap

Quote

 

 

Plyg women are isolated and trapped. Leaving means not seeing your kids, parents, sisters, brothers, friends. Leaving means starting over with nothing and usually getting a minimum wage job and having nowhere to live. The Plyg women who do get out usually do so because they have lots of help. (Sorry my quote ability is not functioning well today).

In my opinion it is never easy to leave a marriage of twenty years. Men have the upper hand with finances in many cases and it's hard to find well paying jobs when you have limited job experience. Maybe Meri will find the courage to leave. Since Kody cares only about Robyn, I don't think he even cares. People who never met Meri seem to have way more anger at this than her own husband.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Madding crowd

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, Lm2162 said:

 

Also, millions of people are single with NO kids, single parents, coupled with kids, actual empty nesters, etc. Plenty of them have fulfilling jobs, hobbies, friends, travel, and extended family relationships. It's not like Meri is the first woman on earth whose daughter has gone to college. She's actually luckier than many in the number of people she has around. 

 

This is a good point. I think it's hard for Meri, because while SHE is an empty nester, the other wives within her family have kids still at home. So it's in her face daily. But, at the same time, how hard is she trying to be part of their lives? Aren't those supposed to be her kids as well? Is she offering to babysit, take kids to functions, host family dinner weekly, etc? Maybe the other women aren't reaching out, but is she? And I'm sure it's hard to witness Kody's other wives still having children, but she surely isn't the only one in a hard situation like that. Women lose their children and have to go to work every day and hear other moms talk about their kids. Couples struggle with infertility while everyone around them, including the 17yo neighbor kid, get knocked up. It's life. You either stop comparing yours to others and find something that makes you happy, or you live your life in a swamp of bitterness. It seems Meri has chosen to wallow. 

 

3 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Plyg women are isolated and trapped. Leaving means not seeing your kids, parents, sisters, brothers, friends. Leaving means starting over with nothing and usually getting a minimum wage job and having nowhere to live. The Plyg women who do get out usually do so because they have lots of help. (Sorry my quote ability is not functioning well today).

This is true, but these aren't your typical Plygs. She is not isolated. She lives in Las Vegas, Nevada and seemingly has quite a few friends outside these circles. I doubt she would be denied the ability to see her kids or anything like that. Christine's mom left and she lives with them! I just don't really see Meri having that hard of a time. I think she mostly stays because they're a package deal for the show and she doesn't want to support herself or lose the attention. The only way she was open to doing otherwise was when she thought a hot, rich guy wanted her.

[Madding crowd]

I know she isn't really isolated, it's just a mind-set the plyg's grow up with. I' m sure she is needed for  the show, but I also believe Kody would ask the kids not to see her if she left. I also think her family members would shun her too. She has a couple of friends, but who knows if they would support her if she left he 'church'. 

[AZChristian]

39 minutes ago, islandgal140 said:

LOL! at Kody hoping the new princess would arrive pre-January 1, for the tax benefit. Can you imagine the raised eyebrows at the IRS office when someone claims 18 children as dependents? I wonder if they have ever been audited?

He's probably only filing a married/joint status with Robyn and claiming 4 kids before this (he was able to claim her three oldest after the adoption - if it was real).  The others are probably filing as Head-of-Household - much more advantageous to them as "single mothers."  That's why we see so many cases on shows like Judge Judy where people promise to pay "when they get their taxes."  For some, it's a government windfall, and they know how to work the system.

And Heaven knows, these sisterwives know how to work the system (when it's to their advantage).

[Snarklepuss]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

She said he was going to have a vest too. I imagine it would be something like this. I don't think that's too casual, especially for the more rustic, outdoor theme they're going with. I actually think it looks quite nice. 

My biggest objection to the look is that from what I have seen (and yes I have seen a lot of weddings on TV plus until recently Mr. Snarkle was a part-time wedding photographer) it rarely translates to something as put together as above.  Judging from Maddie and her fiance's relative lack of fashion sense I doubt their wedding party will look anywhere as good as above.  Plus there's the disparity in the bride's appearance versus the groom's.  Maddie chose a very formal look.  IMO it's totally out of place with her groom being dressed so casually by comparison.  To me that says she takes the marriage far more seriously than she expects her husband to.  Either that or she is living in a fantasy totally out of place in the time and place she's really living in.  Not the kind of symbolism I'd personally be shooting for, but then again these days I don't think people think these things out well enough to even know what they're implying to the world with their look.  It's not just about what they think it means but what the rest of the world looking at their wedding album in 20 years might think.  Otherwise we wouldn't have needed a decade of "What Not to Wear" and other fashion shows to give them a reality check.  Now, if she were dressing in a more casual gown I'd say the above look would be fine.  I'm not saying every wedding has to be a formal affair although I personally would choose a more formal look and despise khakis.  One would think that choosing her venue based on it having a more "bohemian" vibe (which I don't even think she knows what that is) Maddie would have chosen a more fitting look for that kind of setting.  I'm sorry but it's just an epidemic today with young people mixing and matching and misinterpreting words to suit whatever strange idea they have in their heads about what they mean.....

Below is more the kind of off-beat look that I think would be fitting with the groom in khakis, although the bride is wearing more of a beachy look - a more casual country look would be more appropriate for Maddie's setting (IMO):

 

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Snarklepuss
redundant wording.

[VedaPierce]

When the catfish scandal first broke, I felt a lot of pity for Meri. Everybody makes mistakes. Horrible that hers was so public and so humiliating. However... The way she has dealt with the fallout subsequently, speaks to her character. She is still consciously lying, denying, revising, looking for human shields for deflection, etc. That's what I find appalling. We all make mistakes but there comes a time to confess, be contrite, ask for forgiveness and THEN move on. It's not the crime, it's the coverup. That's what I find skeevy about her character. 

Also, i dont know if Meri has been diagnosed with clinical depression. I can't jump to that conclusion. I can only comment on what I've seen her say and do, I'm not aware that she can't leave the house due to depression...of course if she is clinically depressed that would shed some light to her situation. 

[ghoulina]

I don't see her dress as being THAT much more fancy than these outfits. Maybe I need to see it again. At any rate, I don't think that means she takes the marriage more seriously. Women often take fashion more seriously than men do. I actually don't really follow mainstream fashion at all. I know what's in, roughly, but I do my own thing. What Not to Wear would have a field day with me. But I'm happy. I'll reserve further judgement until we see wedding photos. 

[ReadMeLattice]

As for Mariah being myopic and only focused on herself, well, sure. That's how early 20s/teenagers are, and should be, and have to be before they figure out their identity in relationship to the world. 

However, depression or not, Meri compared what happened with the catfish to being raped and isn't admitting what she did. And I just can't get behind that. Her depression may be real, but that doesn't make her a real victim in every situation. She can still act and her actions also affect other people. 

[Kellyee]

Quote

But, at the same time, how hard is she trying to be part of their lives? Aren't those supposed to be her kids as well? Is she offering to babysit, take kids to functions, host family dinner weekly, etc? Maybe the other women aren't reaching out, but is she?

I think these women see each other during filming, and not that often otherwise. The little kids (Solomon and Truely) probably do play together on a regular basis, but I doubt these women are seeing each other in a group setting every week. Christine has said in the past that she goes close to a week without her or her kids seeing Kody. I think that's part of why Meri had no idea about Solomon's separation anxiety. They don't really see each other all that much. The family dinners and vacations we see are for the show, and paid for by the show.

Anyone else notice that all the older girls seem to be rather sloppy looking? No makeup and very casual clothing. Maddie looked like she was going to a garage sale when she was looking at wedding venues, and Mariah looked like she just got out of bed when she was walking with Meri. Mykelti seems to make an effort, but that's it.

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, 3girlsforus said:

I don't know - I keep going back and forth on Mariah. I read one post that explains how she was a brat and I find myself agreeing. Then I read another explaining how she is in the right, and I agree with that too.

It does appear that Mariah is starting to see the downside of polygamy. She has a right to be angry for being sold a bill of goods all these years. She was raised to believe it's so wonderful and now it's clear the people who taught her it was wonderful were miserable even then. 

Here's my problem with Mariah's so-called 'critical thinking' epiphany. It seems that her "revelation" has only opened her eyes to things that affect her. She never had a problem with the public lifestyle of the tv show when it lined her mother's pockets so she could provide Mariah with all kinds of stuff and her expensive college education. As long as she only experienced the upside of the public eye, Mariah was fine. Then the inevitable negative attention came. 

 

I'm not sure why Mariah should have to understand in depth the evils of polygamy when her own mother is back in the fold and singing the praises of polygamy and their religion. So she's supposed to say how wrong her mom is and how little she knows about her own needs...to her face? All she said was that she's angry and confused and needs time to process. She's had years of brainwashing and is just now realizing it. It will take time. 

More to the point, Meri, too, benefited financially from polygamy over and over and over, and she was an adult. What Mariah got was runoff. Meri got a bigger budget, a nicer mansion, the feeling of being "first wife" and lording it over the others, etc. She got to abuse Janelle and get away with it. She got to use Janelle's and Kody's money and Christine's cooking skills and only work part time while her sister wives raised 12 kids on a tiny budget compared to hers. It's only when it stopped serving her that she no longer "loved" polygamy. And did she respond by speaking out against it or seeking therapy? Or leaving the marriage? Nope, she had an affair and continues to reap the financial benefits of calling herself a sister wife. The show, the business, and the family budget. Those would go away if she left. So I'd say if Mariah is a brat, Meri is an even bigger one. Mariah wanted to go to that expensive school to be part of the church and religion *they* shoved on her and indoctrinated in her since birth. She wasn't exactly trying to go to a party school. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Lm2162

[MamaMax]

Mariah showed signs of self-awareness that I hitherto though impossible from a Brown. I thought she sounded like she had had some therapy already, and I was so so glad to hear her say that it wasn't her mistake nor her responsibility to fix it.

I think it's 100% appropriate for a child to have concerns about their parent having an inappropriate relationship, if they know about it.  I think Mariah was within her rights to tell Meri -- This is bad news, you should not be involved with another man to this degree. And if it was all innocent, why didn't she offer to bring him around her family? If they were "just friends" why the secrecy?  In my experience, you only hide things that you know on some level you shouldn't be doing. 

I think Meri has a personality disorder. BPD or Narcissism, or a combo. Her lack of personal responsibility is astonishing.  She really does seem to think she is being persecuted because she said "sorry" and everyone didn't IMMEDIATELY forgive her. SHe seems to think that because she apologized (half-assed and half-heartedly) that there would be no repercussions.

Classic to me was her saying, in practically the same breath: "I damaged/broke trust," and "It's like they don't TRUST me!" and cue the tears.

I find it all manipulative and disingenuous.

Edited May 31, 2016 by MamaMax

[ReadMeLattice]

2 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Depression strikes people on all levels, with or without kids. I would never consider a woman sharing her husband with three other women lucky, but even lucky people have emotional issues. 

Yes, I have it too. I don't doubt that she has depression. It doesn't make her actions moral or not abusive, and it doesn't make her less of a liar. Plus, she chose and continues to choose polygamy, claiming it is superior to other life choices. Her family is nothing like other polygamous families, and she has plenty of her own income from the show and has worked in far more than minimum wage jobs. She wouldn't be cut off. None of the kids are in the church any longer and they are treated just fine. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Lm2162

[ghoulina]

6 minutes ago, Kellyee said:

Anyone else notice that all the older girls seem to be rather sloppy looking? No makeup and very casual clothing. Maddie looked like she was going to a garage sale when she was looking at wedding venues, and Mariah looked like she just got out of bed when she was walking with Meri. Mykelti seems to make an effort, but that's it.

I feel like that's a thing for young people these days. Sweats outside the house. The messy bun/ponytail. It's like there's this whole gym/lounge-chic thing going on. I don't personally get it, but I don't think it's exclusive to the Brown girls. 

[Snarklepuss]

19 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I don't see her dress as being THAT much more fancy than these outfits. Maybe I need to see it again. At any rate, I don't think that means she takes the marriage more seriously. Women often take fashion more seriously than men do. I actually don't really follow mainstream fashion at all. I know what's in, roughly, but I do my own thing. What Not to Wear would have a field day with me. But I'm happy. I'll reserve further judgement until we see wedding photos. 

It's a classic fit and flare with all over lace bodice and lace appliques on the flare part, plus a crystal or crystal-look belt.  IMO, it would be hard to get more formal than that unless she paired it with long gloves and a tiara....

[gunderda]

On 5/29/2016 at 11:14 PM, GussieK said:

Those paintings were the worst!  That art teacher must be laughing hysterically as she pockets the money for teaching.

They are text book wine and canvas paintings. Which I thought was weird when they showed them all hung up on her wall and then she said "i'm taking lessons from the lady who teaches the classes I usually attend"  and then ahhhhh it makes total sense.  Also very interesting that they didn't plug the business that holds them!

12 hours ago, notnowimbusy said:

TLC has to be picking up the tab for the wedding.  Vegas has so many venues, at much cheaper rates, so having this "destination wedding" is all for show.

It's not really a destination for them.  It's where they live.  And don't they have a lot of family members up there?  Maybe it just made more sense.  Traditionally the bride always has the wedding in her home town.  Maybe Maddie doesn't really consider Las Vegas home?

 

My take on Mariah.  In her mind she saw her mom cheating on her dad.  I don't know any child that would be ok with that IF they thought their parents had a good relationship.  Obviously Mariah thought they did because she wanted to live plural marriage as well. And like she said.. it doesn't matter if the person was real or not.  The relationship was real and it was there and she saw her mom being steps away from taking off to another man. Meri can try to deny it all she wants.

 

Meri taking Sol - So Meri had to go ask if she could take him, but was fully expecting Robyn and Kody to say yes.  I could see her being bummed... but how upset she got was really really bizarre. 

[laurakaye]

3 hours ago, trimthatfat said:

I am sympathetic to Meri. Others are not and that's okay. *shrug* Robin has a right to say no (a decision I agree with) and Meri has a right to feel whatever she is feeling in that moment. I wish she had handled it differently, but she didn't. I don't like Meri and haven't liked her throughout this season, but I also think her pain is very legitimate. Just like Christine's pain is very legitimate. This is a lifestyle that is draining and most of the women involved are miserable. It's sad.

 

Meri's pain is real, and I think it's also very common to women, especially mothers, at a certain point in their lives.  It's why this show frustrates me so much.  When Meri starts talking about being an empty-nester, and feeling lonely and isolated within her own (large) family, you know what?  I can relate to that.  A chapter in her life closed, and sometimes it's a real struggle to find out what the next chapter should hold.  When the busyness of childcare starts to come to a close, a woman sometimes has to figure out how to re-define herself, so I do believe that Meri's head is a mess.  But watching her struggle to form sentences, and watching her eyes roll around as she thinks about what to say makes it seem like she's trying to best figure out how to paint herself as a victim in her own scheme to leave her family for a "man" she met online.  I am waiting for her to admit that she never wanted polygamy, she only wanted Kody, who wanted polygamy.  I am waiting for her to scream this from the top steps of the cuddle-sac.  But she never will.  She will talk around it over and over and over again, and paint herself as the victim of JO when she's been the victim of Kody Brown for far longer.

Agree with everyone who said that Sol was going to be a human buffer between Meri and Mariah, and the fact that she wanted to take him at all is laughable.  I don't know if she chose Sol because she knew Robyn would say no, and then Meri could play the "poor me, no one trusts me" card or what, but it was stupid to ask in the first place.  Take a four-year old on a 3-hour car ride away from his mom who is expecting a baby?  Really, Meri?  Nice try.

And wow - "Here's a painting I did to show you that I'm still part of this family, and whenever you walk past it, you can be reminded of how I almost bailed on y'all to run away with my rich handsome boyfriend.  I think it would look great over your couch."  Okay, Meri...whatever.

This family makes me nuts.

Edited May 31, 2016 by laurakaye

[3girlsforus]

15 minutes ago, gunderda said:

My take on Mariah.  In her mind she saw her mom cheating on her dad.  I don't know any child that would be ok with that IF they thought their parents had a good relationship.  Obviously Mariah thought they did because she wanted to live plural marriage as well. And like she said.. it doesn't matter if the person was real or not.  The relationship was real and it was there and she saw her mom being steps away from taking off to another man. Meri can try to deny it all she wants.

 

I agree to a point. But Mariah claims to have realized that polygamy is crap. If that is the case then I would expect at least a little understanding of how crappy polygamy is for the women involved.

[RazzleberryPie]

I understand Meriah's anger. She believes (I agree) her mom was cheating on her dad AND asking Meriah to help facilitate it with the Disney trip, etc. That's really unfair to put your daughter in that situation.

[gunderda]

6 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

I agree to a point. But Mariah claims to have realized that polygamy is crap. If that is the case then I would expect at least a little understanding of how crappy polygamy is for the women involved.

I think this situation helped her realize polygamy is crap so that might be some of her issues that she's not willing to discuss. 

but either way, her mom cheated on her dad and she's not cool with that. 

[laurakaye]

But I think that Mariah only very recently decided that polygamy was crap.  She was always the lone holdout, the one Brown kid who was going to live the wonderful polygamist life, while her siblings turned their backs on it.  Mariah came across as very superior in that regard.  Perhaps she's only recently realized the conundrum that while it's okay for dad to have several partners, it's not okay for mom.  And beyond that, she might just be figuring out how miserable this lifestyle is for Meri.  I'm not a Mariah fan, but I can see where that would mess with her head and make her question everything she thought she knew.

[Snarklepuss]

12 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

I agree to a point. But Mariah claims to have realized that polygamy is crap. If that is the case then I would expect at least a little understanding of how crappy polygamy is for the women involved.

I think it's only a matter of time before Mariah connects those dots and has some empathy for her mother instead of making it all about herself.  I think she's getting to an age now where she's maturing to the point to be able to make those connections.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[mlsmit7]

The way Robyn handled it was so funny to me because it reminded me of myself. Mary asked to take Sol and Robyn got this look on her face like "oh hell no". Then she looked panicked because she can't say that and has to think of an excuse real quick.

It seemed like an excuse because the tone of her voice changed and she was rambling and way overselling the whole "Sol can't be away from me for more than an hour". 

Then Kody or Robyn tells a fib and  says Sol has never stayed with anyone else. Mary points out he has actually stayed with her before when her and Kody went out of town. Then Robyn and Kody go back to rambling about nightmares and Sol freaking out.

Then Mary leaves all upset and Kody starts wondering why Robyn was acting so crazy. Really funny stuff!

If what they said about Sol is really true and the new baby isn't even born yet, yikes!  Does a four year old even understand the concept of a new baby and how that changes things enough to cause nightmares and separation anxiety? I had some clingy kids but they never freaked out when they went somewhere with their dad. I just found that odd.

Then I wondered if Kody ever takes Truly out with him, probably not and that's sad.

[CofCinci]

13 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I think it's only a matter of time before Mariah connects those dots and has some empathy for her mother instead of making it all about herself.  I think she's getting to an age now where she's maturing to the point to be able to make those connections.

Soon, she will be angry at her father.

1 minute ago, mlsmit7 said:

Then I wondered if Kody ever takes Truly out with him, probably not and that's sad.

See comment above.

Kody is a shit parent.

[MamaMax]

I must say, I also rolled my eyes into the back of my head when Meri said she took up "painting."  I also spotted them as Paint n Sip creations...however, leave it to Meri to then RUN to the nearest crafts store and buy eleventy million brushes, paints, canvases, an easel, palettes, etc etc and set up a "Painting Studio" in one of her seventeen empty bedrooms.

Christine is probably cutting coupons to buy Mac n Cheese at Aldi and Jenelle is paying college tuition and for a wedding...and Meri is again buying all kinds of shit she doesn't need to fill up a house that is ten times larger than she needs.  Wow -- what a shocker huh?

Edited May 31, 2016 by MamaMax

[3girlsforus]

22 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I think it's only a matter of time before Mariah connects those dots and has some empathy for her mother instead of making it all about herself.  I think she's getting to an age now where she's maturing to the point to be able to make those connections.

I hope so. Until then I will wonder whether she's really upset because she realized that she's been lied to about polygamy or if she's upset that Meri embarrassed her publicly. It isn't that I don't agree that Mariah has a right to be upset. I just think it's primarily about Mariah being embarrassed and mad at Meri for upsetting the apple cart. I do hope it's the start down the road to really understanding why this is so lousy and that her dad is an ass. I don't like any of these people but I really want to see the wives get out. I think Meri really wants to but doesn't know how. That's why she went looking for someone, figuring that's how she could get out. I think if Mariah develops a true understanding of the impact polygamy has had on her mother, she will help encourage her to leave and that kind of support could be what Meri needs. I'd love to see that rather than see Meri, or any of the wives, escape via another man. 

[VedaPierce]

16 hours ago, hnygrl said:

I'm going to take a completely controversial stand on this show and say the person I feel the most sorry for is Meri.

Yes, a lot - if not all - of this is of he own making, but damn, it breaks my heart to see one human being that alone in the universe. Meri has no one. She's literally all alone in the world. I can't bring myself to "blame" her for the mess she made. Seriously. Can't. She's so ALONE. No man to love her, no children to love her, no job to take her mind off things. The other wives and children despise her as do the fanbase. She's got no one. She's divorced, but still "married." She's the "first wife" but the least favored wife. I see her as one big gigantic ball of sad.

She's too self aware to kill herself, but sheesh...she needs to leave. All that darkness and animosity directed at her. She's the family whipping boy and now even her own child hates her. 

Oh I get it I get it, honestly I do. SHE DID THIS TO HERSELF!!! I know. But still.

NOBODY "deserves" to be that alone in the world.  Don't think I could deal with not having a friend in the whole wide world and the one friend you thought you made turned out to be just another user who wanted to hurt and humiliate you. She's so damned ALONE it breaks my heart. Every single decision she makes is the absolute worst decision she could make. EVERYTHING she does is just...wrong. Who can live like that, with that? Every time this show is on it's "Meri fucked up  and the family is "dealing" with it" 

I feel like that dude on the internet years ago...LEAVE MERI ALOOOONE!!!!

I want her to leave. To find love. Hell to find FRIENDSHIP. A purpose. A LIFE outside of this gaping maw of loneliness that is her very existence.

 

I just can't find it in me to be gleeful or even "self-righteous" that she's "getting what she deserves" Because in my world?
NOBODY "deserves" that.

You are a very kind and compassionate person. :) my mom always says "let 100 people throw stones, I won't be 101". 

and even though I don't quite agree with your whole sentiment, I'm very touched by it :)

Edited May 31, 2016 by VedaPierce

[kassa]

43 minutes ago, mlsmit7 said:

If what they said about Sol is really true and the new baby isn't even born yet, yikes!  Does a four year old even understand the concept of a new baby and how that changes things enough to cause nightmares and separation anxiety? 

If the parents have been incessantly talking about the imminent arrival of something called Little Baby Sister, who apparently is living in mom's tummy and going to come out, alien-like, at some point and take over the house and your room, yeah.  They probably started prepping him for the grand event (and asking for his reactions) before shaking the pee off the stick.   For a kid that age, 6 months is an eternity, and if they've been talking about Little Baby Sister all that time, who knows what he's built that creature out to be in his head. It's just this looming thing that they keep telling him is going to happen, and it keeps not happening, and they keep harping at him about it.  All 211 of them.

I'm on team Mariah on this one.  She saw what was happening and warned her mother, who didn't listen to her.  She was pulled into it via the Disney trip.  She has sadly probably read every detail and heard her mother commit emotional adultery on the phone via those voicemails.  As have every one of her friends and classmates. With the exception of the eyebrow comment, however, she was making an effort with Meri.  More than once she told her that she loved her (unsolicited).  She reassured her that she loved her, but that she was angry and needed time.  I have no doubt that she had previously conveyed these sentiments to her mother, but was met with the shooting schedule, conveniently arranged so that Mariah could render absolution.

I think that's where the immediate anger is coming from.  She hasn't cut her mother off.   She's willing to come home and shoot the show here and there ... but she did not want to star in Meri's redemption arc when she's still angry about it.

I saw a mother trying to force a scene to play out and a daughter refusing to do it while still offering a generous amount of kindness (given the circumstances and the anger she's still dealing with).  I thought she was pretty damn mature in expressing her unwillingness to give her mother what she wants, but I didn't think the bitterness was so much over the catfishing itself, but Meri's pressure to resolve it with a nice bow on top for the show.  THAT'S the absolution she's not ready to give. That was the tug of war we were seeing - not Meri saying "forgive me!" but Meri saying "Forgive me right now on tv!"

If she were holding the infidelity against her in any truly vicious way, she had ample opportunity to just cold shoulder her throughout.  Conversely, she could have offered a phony "I'm so sorry for what you've gone through and how dare someone you trusted betray you like that!" But she stayed true to herself.  She loves her mother, but she's angry.  She's not giving forgiveness she doesn't feel, but she's not abandoning her.  It's difficult, and they'll figure it out, but in Mariah's time, not Meri's.

Edited May 31, 2016 by kassa

[laurakaye]

Someone on CJ's blog brought up an excellent point that I hadn't thought of...if the Brown adults truly believe in polygamy - that it's the only way for Kody to call everyone to his celestial planet - why are they not absolutely gutted that none of their children are planning on living polygamy?  Wouldn't this mean that they will not be able to see their children in eternity?  Kody and Janelle seem pretty laid-back with the fact that Maddie is getting married and has no polygamy plans.  None of the adults seem terribly bothered at all.  Again, it's another big ol' elephant in the room - why are NONE of the older children following the lifestyle in which they were raised?  Does Kody even discuss it with his kids?  Or is he afraid to have a mirror placed in front of him as the example as to why his children will not live plural marriage?

[Absolom]

Quote

I'm sorry but it's just an epidemic today with young people mixing and matching and misinterpreting words to suit whatever strange idea they have in their heads about what they mean.....

It's so common and it's sad.  Words have meanings - not what you and your four friends want to pretend that they mean.  I hope this isn't a permanent sign of the future.  I'm not a fan of the Pinterest wedding trend either with overdone themes and so much cutesy which is what they guys in khakis and vests usually makes me think.  I have nothing against and individualized off beat wedding much like the beach one above, but if you truly want bohemian first figure out what bohemian truly means and looks like it and integrate things so it doesn't come out all hodge podge.  Those are the weddings where ten or twenty years down the road people look at the photos and go what were you thinking?

I'm not sure whether the kids turn out looking so rumpled and underdressed because the mothers don't seem to know how to dress well or it's a symptom of the group who think pajamas are public wear and leggings are pants so anything that covers your body is fine for leaving the house to go almost anywhere. Maybe a mix of both.

[laurakaye]

@kassa - +++++++1 to your ENTIRE post.

[Celia Rubenstein]

2 hours ago, 3girlsforus said:

I don't know - I keep going back and forth on Mariah. I read one post that explains how she was a brat and I find myself agreeing. Then I read another explaining how she is in the right, and I agree with that too.

I have mixed feelings about Mariah, too.  What I have concluded is that while she may well be a brat, that doesn't mean she won't on occasion have good reason to be hurt and pissed off.  But being a brat, of course, she will express those feelings in a snotty way and undercut the validity of any point she has.  Because that's what brats do. 

I am just hoping that much like the way she has developed her own opinions while away at college, Mariah will continue growing and develop a more ... informed? compassionate? personality and lose the judgmental attitude.   And perhaps recognize that the institution of polygamy which she herself just decided is for crap is the world her mother has lived in for over twenty years, and contributed to what happened.  Realize that while it's not an excuse, it is an explanation, and at some point moving on and having a relationship with your mother is more important than being steadfast in your self-righteous indignation.  She's young - it will take time.  But I think she has the capacity to get there.  

I have to admit to having a giant smirk on my face as I watched Meri squirm while on the receiving end of Mariah's self-centered anger and scorn, though.   But I guess Meri is only reaping what she sowed.  The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, what goes around comes around, etc etc. LOL

And I LOL'd big time at Meri FUMING over not being allowed to use Sol as a tool to manipulate Mariah into a reconciliation.  You can tell she doesn't hear the word "no" very often and she can't handle it at all, haha.   She couldn't seem to believe she wasn't going to get her way.  "So is that a no?"  Uhh ... yeah, sorry Meri, that's a no, lol!   Then pouting, stomping out, slamming the door. All more attempts at manipulation to get her way.  More arguing about it back at her house.  Trying to make Kody and Robyn feel guilty because they were hurting HER feelings.  

What about SOL's FEELINGS????? I don't think Meri acknowledged even once that Sol might be unhappy if he was made to go on this trip with her.  It didn't matter, didn't register.  Only Meri's feelings count.  Kind of the way that to Mariah, only her feelings count.   But she learned at the feet of the master I guess, and it shows.

[3girlsforus]

3 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

I have mixed feelings about Mariah, too.  What I have concluded is that while she may well be a brat, that doesn't mean she won't on occasion have good reason to be hurt and pissed off.  But being a brat, of course, she will express those feelings in a snotty way and undercut the validity of any point she has.  Because that's what brats do. 

I am just hoping that much like the way she has developed her own opinions while away at college, Mariah will continue growing and develop a more ... informed? compassionate? personality and lose the judgmental attitude.   And perhaps recognize that the institution of polygamy which she herself just decided is for crap is the world her mother has lived in for over twenty years, and contributed to what happened.  Realize that while it's not an excuse, it is an explanation, and at some point moving on and having a relationship with your mother is more important than being steadfast in your self-righteous indignation.  She's young - it will take time.  But I think she has the capacity to get there.  

 

THIS!!!! You eloquently put into words what I have been unable to express.  

[MarysWetBar]

5 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Mariah apologized for the eyebrow comment and admitted that she's too angry to talk right now and she has to wait or she'll really lash out. She also said her mother must be going through a lot of pain and she knows she is adding to it by not immediately forgiving her. I thought all of that was quite mature. I expected something really different before I watched the episode. Except for one or two snarky comments, she was a lot kinder than I'd have been. I'd have played Meri the voicemail where she curses out my dad and says Sam is way hotter, richer,  and "better on all fucking levels," and that she'd leave my dad in a second for him, or shown her the banana blow job picture and said, "Really, Mom? This was your "friendship?" I think most people would. She was comparatively incredibly forgiving. Meri doesn't deserve it. 

I'm older, so maybe that is why I am so confused by some of the remarks about how Mariah has every right to TEAR into her mother.

My mom could have had an affair, murdered the milkman, and ran over the priest, and it would have never occurred to me that I could put her on blast or give her my two cents about how she was living her life.

A certain respect for parents seems to be missing these days...could just be me, though.

Now, get off my lawn! haha

[laurakaye]

My DVR cut out before the previews for next week.  Will Robyn (modestly, LOL) give birth on camera and make noises that I don't want to hear, while Kody nuzzles her and makes noises that I don't want to hear?  'Cause I may have to take a pass on that one.

[MarysWetBar]

3 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I know she isn't really isolated, it's just a mind-set the plyg's grow up with. I' m sure she is needed for  the show, but I also believe Kody would ask the kids not to see her if she left. I also think her family members would shun her too. She has a couple of friends, but who knows if they would support her if she left he 'church'. 

maybe so- I mean look at her own daughter shunning her now- and this actually a perfect word for what is occurring between the two of them.

Meriah took Daddy's side.

[laurakaye]

5 minutes ago, MarysWetBar said:

I'm older, so maybe that is why I am so confused by some of the remarks about how Mariah has every right to TEAR into her mother.

My mom could have had an affair, murdered the milkman, and ran over the priest, and it would have never occurred to me that I could put her on blast or give her my two cents about how she was living her life.

A certain respect for parents seems to be missing these days...could just be me, though.

Now, get off my lawn! haha

I wonder if Mariah is directing her anger to Meri because she can't bring herself to direct it to Kody for divorcing Meri and marrying Robyn.

[kassa]

Vis a vis khakis, I've been to a few Yankee (as in New England Prep School Old Money, not NY baseball team) weddings where khakis and navy blazers were worn for informal Maine/Nantucket/Martha's Vineyard type weddings. 

Needless to say, it's all in the execution.  

[trimthatfat]

4 hours ago, 3girlsforus said:

I don't know - I keep going back and forth on Mariah. I read one post that explains how she was a brat and I find myself agreeing. Then I read another explaining how she is in the right, and I agree with that too.

It does appear that Mariah is starting to see the downside of polygamy. She has a right to be angry for being sold a bill of goods all these years. She was raised to believe it's so wonderful and now it's clear the people who taught her it was wonderful were miserable even then. 

Here's my problem with Mariah's so-called 'critical thinking' epiphany. It seems that her "revelation" has only opened her eyes to things that affect her. She never had a problem with the public lifestyle of the tv show when it lined her mother's pockets so she could provide Mariah with all kinds of stuff and her expensive college education. As long as she only experienced the upside of the public eye, Mariah was fine. Then the inevitable negative attention came. Now Mariah is ticked. If it truly came from her 'critical thinking' epiphany, she would be mad at more than Meri and the catfish situation. She'd be ticked at Kody for treating her mother and the other wives (except Robyn) like shit. She'd be encouraging her mother to leave. She'd be mad at the catfish thing but see that it's a symptom of the emotional toll living in a polygamist relationship, especially with a narcissist like Kody, takes on someone. She could have compassion for her mother while being mad about the embarrassment. 

But instead Mariah is upset about the catfish thing blowing up and embarrassing her. That's legitimate, but because it seems to be the main thing she's upset about and she resorted to mean girl insults about something as stupid as eyebrows, She's acting more like a self-absorbed girl whose mad because someone messed with her world than someone who is thinking critically about a situation. 

Exactly! Plus, I'm sure Mariah has seen how the lifestyle has impacted Christine. How Janelle has felt like she's been bullied by Meri for years. How the other college-aged kids are in public school because their mothers can't afford a private education. None of that was enough for her to think 'wow, this is a really fucked up situation that isn't fair to the adult women or the kids'. But Meri does something stupid that has serious ramifications, and now Mariah has an epiphany? Oh, okay. Notice how all of the other kids have said for years that they wanted monogamous relationships? Mariah held onto wanting a polygamous relationship because she thought it worked out well for her mother. I really hope that with time and age, she can evaluate this situation for what it truly is because it truly is sad that this family is as messed up as it is.

Edited May 31, 2016 by trimthatfat

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, mlsmit7 said:

If what they said about Sol is really true and the new baby isn't even born yet, yikes!  Does a four year old even understand the concept of a new baby and how that changes things enough to cause nightmares and separation anxiety? I had some clingy kids but they never freaked out when they went somewhere with their dad. I just found that odd.

I think they were probably overselling it, but it is quite normal to get clingy when a new baby is on the way. At his age, I think he can understand the concept pretty well. My oldest was only 19 months old when his brother was born. He became super attached to me towards the end of my pregnancy. I think it's just something they can sense.

 

A certain respect for parents seems to be missing these days...could just be me, though.

 

I might be weird on this, but I don't get having an immediate respect for someone JUST because they're your elder/parent. I try to offer respect to anyone I encounter, regardless of age or relationship, until they give me reason not to. I think Meri has absolutely given Mariah reason to lose respect for her. Although, if it were me, I wouldn't be making comments about the eyebrows and being too harsh on camera. Not because it's what Meri deserves, but because it says something about who I am (or Mariah, as the case may be) as a person. 

[b2H]

My dear husband got an eyeful of this program on Sunday night (I wasn't travelling, due to the Monday holiday).  His first question on seeing Kody is, what the h&ll did any of these women see in him.  A few minutes later, they had the older pictures of the wives and Kody and then DH got it.  He understood then, but not so much now.

My grandson is about Sol's age.  I don't think that kid would go with anyone for too terribly long without having issues.  He does his pre-school, but it's with the understanding that a) it's fun and b) he goes home to Mom by lunchtime.  However, he has a little sister - about 16 months younger - and had no issues with a new sibling coming into the family.  Same with the two older boys, now 10 and 7.  There were issues with the 10 year old for a little while, but he adjusted out and the world didn't stop revolving.  YMMV.

Sadly, my DVR cut out for the second hour, so I didn't see the latter part of the program - I didn't miss it, I just didn't see it.  I suppose I can pick up the re-play next weekend and not try watching John Oliver repeats while I'm recording.

[Celia Rubenstein]

21 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

I wonder if Mariah is directing her anger to Meri because she can't bring herself to direct it to Kody for divorcing Meri and marrying Robyn.

I doubt that Mariah has the ability to direct anger at Kody at all, given how she was raised. 

The Brown wives all demonstrate a strong tendency to blame themselves for being unhappy.  Like Christine going on about how she never knew she "was so flawwwwed" because she experienced resentment and jealousy sharing her husband with a bunch of other women.  They are very reluctant to question the institution of polygamy and blaming their husband for anything or being angry with him seems completely out of the question.  

It would not surprise me if a lot of the reason Mariah is heaping all her anger on Meri is because of this pattern of thinking. She may have abandoned the idea of polygamy, but the idea that Kody is beyond reproach may still loom large in her mind.  And without the ability to think critically where her father is concerned, she won't see him as contributing to what occurred.  She probably can't conceive of him as anything more than a victim in this situation.

It's interesting that the older boys in the family appear to see Kody for what he is.  They are outwardly respectful, but you can tell some of them don't think much of him at all.  I would guess it is because they have not been indoctrinated with the belief that feelings of dissatisfaction with him or the lifestyle are failings and signs of character weakness the way the girls have been trained to think.