S02.E08: The Fox's Lair

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Claire and Jamie seek to elicit support from his manipulative grandfather, who may have his own interests at heart, while a visiting Colum MacKenzie has other plans.

[toolazy]

I'm so happy that they changed up the opening credits!  I loved the way this episode started - in a happy place - but it kind of dragged with all of the Simon Lovatt drama.  I didn't hate the Laoghaire bits as much as I thought I would. I'm wondering exactly what about that made DG think book readers would freak out.  

I didn't realize how happy I would be to be back in Scotland until we were there.  

[maraleia]

I'm glad that they're back in Scotland and it was good to see Jenny and Ian.

Scratch what I said before. The On Demand version wasn't the full episode but the StarzPlay one was.

Edited May 28, 2016 by maraleia

[toolazy]

I'm not sure what you watched but the episode I watched was at least 55 minutes. 

[Dust Bunny]

That was vintage Outlander. So, so good. You’ve been missed, Scotland. Thank you, Anne Kenney, for bringing us home.

This is the Jamie and Claire partnership I’ve been craving for so long. So many simple, quiet, and lovely moments, with humor, devotion, and candor. Saying so much with few words, because they know each other’s hearts. Yay! And Sam has really mastered Jamie’s smiles. It makes me smile every time I see it.

Love the 2nd-half theme: the drums of war. The return-to-Scotland images are great too.

Throughout this episode, Jamie looked less a boy and more a man with each scene. You can see the growth from episode to episode. I love the trajectory of this season.

The potato scene was wonderful. Dear other writers: it is ok – desirable even – to have small moments of great joy and laughter in this show. Just fyi.

So happily surprised they included the scene of Jamie with Katherine; it’s one of my favorites in DiA. Yet, until this episode, I had never seen it through the lens of Jamie not holding Faith. Cait’s eyes as she watched her husband and niece-not-daughter said more than a script could. I’ll never read that scene in the same way again. Very well done, show.

They’re really planting the seeds for season 3. Mac the groom preferring the company of horses to people.

Regarding the Laoghaire stuff, it didn’t bother me much. More than anything, it seemed too much like a soap opera. Clearly, it’s also about planting the seeds for season 3. Yet, it felt a bit like bad fanfic (if any fan were to write such a plot). No shark-jumping in sight, but maybe that’s because I was rolling my eyes a little. But hey – it gave Nell Hudson some screen time and a bit of a paycheck. I have mixed feelings about Colum being here instead of at Holyrood with BPC. Is that farewell between Jamie and Colum the last we see Colum? Or was this an extra episode, mostly used to bring in the Laoghaire angle? Gary Lewis has a great presence; I hope we get at least one more interaction with him, Graham McTavish, and Sam.

The one thing that did seem very uncharacteristic is that Jamie would for even one second consider giving up Lallybroch. Just like how he’d protect Claire without hesitation, Jamie would never allow anyone – including the Old Fox – to threaten his home or his tenants. I thought when he said, “I do this to ensure the future of my family and people”, he was going to rip up the deed of sasine, thereby protecting Lallybroch. But then Claire entered the scene, and all is forgiven…

Loved Claire’s “vision” and Jamie’s reaction to it. That felt like a callback to their tag-teaming to release the boy who had his ear nailed in “The Way Out”. More of that, please.

It’s amazing how little I missed the Paris costumes and sets. The natural and rugged authenticity of Scotland is like putting on cozy pajamas after a long day of being in a dress and high heels. Sure, it’s fun to look nice, but I would much rather feel comfortable and free.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[toolazy]

I agree about Jamie's apparently willingness to give up Lallybroch - it makes no sense at all.  To me, that was much more out of character than anything that happened between Claire and Laoghaire.  But whatever, I'm so happy that they're out of France that I can't get too critical  Yet.  I've only watched it once - maybe after I've watched it another time or two, I'll have more to say.  

Have I mentioned how happy I am about the new opening sequence?

[IntrovertGal]

2 hours ago, toolazy said:

I agree about Jamie's apparently willingness to give up Lallybroch - it makes no sense at all.  To me, that was much more out of character than anything that happened between Claire and Laoghaire.  But whatever, I'm so happy that they're out of France that I can't get too critical  Yet.  I've only watched it once - maybe after I've watched it another time or two, I'll have more to say.  

Have I mentioned how happy I am about the new opening sequence?

Totally agree re Jamie and Lallybroch, book!Jamie would not do that! After all the build-up, the Laoghaire stuff was not as bad as I feared. She still annoys me greatly though.

After last week's heartbreaking episode, it was so nice to see this week's episode start with scenes of domestic bliss, although I was a bit disappointed that we didn't get to see the potato feast. Words cannot express how happy I am that they are back in Scotland. And man, those new opening credits are beyond gorgeous. So glad that the song is completely in English again and the new images are great. I certainly did not mind that shot of half-naked Highlanders in their kilts. ;) It was so nice to see Jenny and Ian again. I absolutely loved the scene of Jamie singing to his niece and Claire and Jenny's conversation about it.

Lord Lovat is just as disgusting and wily on screen as he is in the book.

I cannot wait to see how they adapt the Prestonpans and Edinburgh book chapters in the TV show.

[Petunia846]

3 hours ago, Dust Bunny said:

They’re really planting the seeds for season 3. Mac the groom preferring the company of horses to people.

Plus...

Spoiler

the mention of Jocasta!

There was something else in that short section at Lallybroch, but I forget what it was now.

Also, I liked the little exchange between Ian and Claire when they were saying good-bye and they told each other to look after their Frasers. It was cute.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Petunia846

[ElsieH]

I gotta be honest, I didn't like this one. I'm not even sure the shark jumping had anything to do with Laoghaire, I didn't like the way they casually keep talking about the witch stuff (also didn't like it on the last episode where she just admitted it either). I just thought it was dumb, and I didn't like the fake "vision". Plus, they said they added Laoghaire to explain what happens much later, but it actually did make more sense in the book because Jamie never knew she was responsible for the witch trial, right? I don't really see how this will help anyone understand where they end up 20 years later. The only part of the episode I did like was the beginning of course. I don't know, maybe I'll change my mind when I watch later with the Mr, but my first impression was pretty bad.

 

PS - Can someone remind me how he did end up convincing Lovat to assist in the book? Hated that he seemed ready to hand over Lallybroch, that just didn't make sense either. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by ElsieH

[morgan]

I had to watch a somewhat abbreviated version this morning because we are heading out for the day and I couldn't leave it completely till we get home.  I'm ignoring the Laoghaire stuff because honestly I didn't like it at all.  But I know it could have been much worse.  I agree, way too soapy. Have just decided none of it happened.  lol.  

Can't wait to rewatch tonight and really revel in those small moments.  Those I thought were really well done.  And yep, old fox was just as disgusting as in the book.  The potato scene and the one with Jamie and the baby are 2 of my favorites.  So happy they made it in!  Love Jamie & Claire as a team!  Love the new opening!!!!  Love being back in Scotland!

Have to add, btw, for those who listen to the Scot and the Sassenach.  I was laughing because I am wondering if they will have more problems with the voice overs than with the Laoghaire stuff.  I personally don't mind the VO, but they hate them!

Edited May 28, 2016 by morgan

[Clawdette]

I'm going to forget about Laoghaire by reciting, Jamie and the baby Jamie and the baby over and over again. 

The real problem I have with the revision is that I always felt that Jamie married that bitch only because he didn't know her part in Claire's arrest.  That's out the window now.  I guess his powers of forgiveness actually know no bounds.

[Andorra]

I actually liked the episode even though it was so far from the book and I thought the jumping the shark moment was very minor. IMO it made Leoghaire even more scheming and bad and it will be even more taking advantage of Jamie's depression and lonelines when 

It was a little bit too much Leoghaire, but the audience might have needed a reminder who she was and what a scheming and false bitch she is. They got that reminder and will hate her next year. 

I always thought it was idiotic that Claire never told Jamie about Leoghaire's involvement in the happenings at Crainsmuir, so I don't mind him knowing. The non book audience will even know more now, what a false bitch she is and they will hate her (and probably Jenny) when she makes Jamie marrying her out of pity for her situation and her daughters. 

It really rushed through Lallybroch, but I loved it that we at least had the scene with the Baby. It was a very tender moment. I also loved the scene on the field between Jamie and Claire. Finally it was Claire who needed reassurance and needed talking to and Jamie was the one who hadn't given up. 

In general I thought it was a great Jamie episode. He really was back as the old Jamie! 

I think they will not cut Edinburgh, but they just changed the order of things to make it more dramatic. In the book there's the battle of Prestonpans, then they go to Lord Lovat and then they come back and finally go to Inverness and Culloden. 
I think the battle of Prestonpans is certainly more dramamtic than the happenings at castle Lovat, so I don't mind that they changed the order of it and put this before Prestonpans. It will be the only big battle in season 2 and it should be near the end.

So I was entertained, surprised and liked it. The only complain I have is, that the show really is a 50s clean show by now, always fading to black when it gets the slightest bit steamy. Where's the sex??

[insubordination]

I actually miss France and the cast and costumes there. I have been enjoying those episodes a lot, but it was so lovely to be back in Scotland/old PJs and the landscape, castles and grey and green colours. Jamie seems much more at home. He really grew into the role tonight and seemed to have a little more agency and character (like the little cheeky/smiling moments and real leadership). 

I enjoyed some of the familiar faces - just didn't like some of the new characters, though I'm sure the casting was spot on. I thought it was good to see Colum/Jenny/Ian.  I agree that the witch stuff and Leery nonsense was not something that was needed or made much sense. Yeah he marries her later, but this little act of helping them out is not justification enough to make up for his knowing her part in Claire's arrest and marrying her anyway.

I also thought Claire's wrath for Colum and Laighwtfie was too subdued. Guess she's been through a great deal since those events. Bygones!  Shouldn't Jamie be pissed with Colum too?

I don't think Jamie ever seriously was going to give up Lallybroch. They planned the 'vision' together I guessed. It's so odd that they're now pro-Charlie. France shenanigans were just a waste of time then.  I just wanted Jamie to relax for a while after recent events and eat some potatoes. He just got a pardon and now he's a traitor.  Only 2 eps left. Is that right? Passed so quickly.

My favourite scene was Jamie holding the baby with his bare feet poking out. Fergus was adorable. Love that lil actor.

Edited May 28, 2016 by insubordination

[AheadofStraight]

5 hours ago, ElsieH said:

I gotta be honest, I didn't like this one. I'm not even sure the shark jumping had anything to do with Laoghaire, I didn't like the way they casually keep talking about the witch stuff (also didn't like it on the last episode where she just admitted it either).

Diana confirmed on CompuServe that it was this scene and apparently they wanted her repeatedly slapping Laoghaire.

2 hours ago, Andorra said:

So I was entertained, surprised and liked it. The only complain I have is, that the show really is a 50s clean show by now, always fading to black when it gets the slightest bit steamy. Where's the sex??

Maril keeps promising on Twitter that there will be sex coming up. Gee, maybe we only get one more real sex scene for the rest of the season...I hope it's something before the final rushed one at the stones (if we even have that)....

[toolazy]

Ron Moore has always said that the sex in the show isn't going to be gratuitous - it's going to be in service of the characters and their relationship. While I personally wouldn't mind some straight-up Sam porn, I think we saw enough last night to know that they have found each other again. 

8 hours ago, Grashka said:

One tiny question: did Jamie call Lord Lovat an "auld gomerel" and tossed his false teeth into the fire? Because it made me snicker in the book ;-)

In the behind the scenes feature after the show the writer explained that they couldn't figure out the logistics for the wooden teeth because prosthetics would make the actor talk funny.  So they substituted Jamie throwing the glass of whisky (?) into the fire (which also servedd to illustrate Claire's witchy powers.)  

[Dust Bunny]

2 hours ago, insubordination said:

I don't think Jamie ever seriously was going to give up Lallybroch. They planned the 'vision' together I guessed.

I agree they planned Claire's "vision" together, but there were a couple earlier scenes that depicted that he did consider giving up Lallybroch. The vision approach was good because Jamie wasn't forced to flat-out reject Lovet.

On the other hand, part of me wondered if Claire came up with the idea on her own after Jamie had planted the seed (since they walked out of the stable a little separately) to spare Jamie from that action, and he quickly jumped on board. I think that scene could be interpreted different ways.

Similarly, I wonder how they're going to show young John's capture/release. In the book, Claire somehow gets a sense that Jamie is wanting her to give a reason not to shoot John. It was sort of telepathic. I think this scene is happening in the next episode. I'm looking forward to that. 

Regardless, I love Jamie-Claire tag-teaming. 

[lianau]

Could we please stop calling Laoghaire names . She was as 16 year old girl in love with Jamie,  who took a beating for her and then made out with her . It had to look like he felt something for her when he was then forced to marry Claire . She thought she was doing the right thing , freeing Jamie from something he hated . Then she ends up pining for her first love for years  only for that dream to turn into disaster because traumatized Jamie can reciprocate her feelings and they were just wrong for each other .

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm never going to get my healed hands scene and tears, am I? It's no longer in the opening credits. Fuck it all to hell and back.

Ahem.

I LOOOOOOOOOVED this episode! It's great to have Jamie and Claire back home, so to speak. And the lush scenery of Scotland!!!

No way was Jamie going to sign away Lallybroch. Even before Claire had her "vision," he was doing what all to delay the signing of it.

ACK! Hosebeast!!!! Like I'm supposed to believe she's sae sorry for what she set in motion. And I chortled that when Jamie thanked her, he had no idea why he was thanking her, and told her he was told he should thank her; in short, it didna come from his haert. My eyes could not roll hard enough when she said that one day she'd also earn his love. Yeah, keep on believing that you brazen besom.

The scene of Jamie and Katherine brought tears to me eyes, it did. At first, I thought when my closed captioning stated "Jamie muttering" and there was firelight, and Claire felt that Jamie wasn't in bed, that that was when I would get my healed hand scene! But this was just as bootiful.

One thing that did bug me was making Young Simon a mealy mouthed, weak, spineless (until the end) person. Because correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he the one that tried to attack Claire in the buik before she set him straight? Even if he wasn't, in the buik, he was a strong character.

I don't understand why we had to see hosebeast Loaghaire here--I don't agree with Anne Kenney, that it needed to be shown to "explain" what happens next year. Because WE know, and I'm sure Moore will inform the non-buik audience, via Jenny, why/how Jamie ends up stuck with the wench.

Och! And I fergot tae mention, I had a big ass grin on me face seeing Rabbie, Jenny and Ian. Oh how I've missed hearing Jenny's starch, blunt-speakin' ways!

And aye, I could see Jamie has come into his own here. I can believe that the men will follow this Jamie, as opposed to the "lad" we saw last season.

Ah, wee Fergus, with his 'Milords' and "Miladys' and insisting he wanted to go with Jamie and Claire. And I really loved Jamie's words to Wee Fergus about listening to his Commanding Officer and General.

In short, I just loved hearing all the Scots' brogues and most especially Sam's Jamie's.

Wot? 

[Wouldofshouldof]

Aye, Anne Kenney is right.  Seeing Sam hold the bairn is like catnip!

[Glaze Crazy]

Well, that was a "blink and you'll miss it" visit to Lallybroch, wasn't it?  I know not much really did happen (in the book) while they were there this time but it was still sad to see them riding off after about 10 minutes into the episode.

It takes me at least two watches to sort out the changes from the book, the first is basically spent going "What are they doing?!? Why did they do that?!?" and the next viewing I'm more open to seeing what they were going for. I continue to give credit to the show runners for finding ways to condense and improve the story flow for TV.

Jamie with baby Katherine was very poignant and I'm glad they used it.  Like Dust Bunny said above, seeing it after the traumatic loss of Faith last episode definitely put it into a different light.  I also hadn't viewed it that way in the book, since there was so much time between, practically a year.  Claire delivered this baby in the book but here she is already born when they got home. Anyway, loved how it was framed for the show and it was very sweet.

The actor playing Simon Lord Lovat, The Old Fox, was excellent. He was suitably scary and overwhelmingly powerful as the leader of Clan Fraser.  I also liked the inclusion of Colum into this bit and the two clan chiefs apparently choosing to stand together and not support Prince Charles' plans.  I'm hoping this sets up a juicy scene or two with Colum and Dougal about their differences re: The Rising.  Really liked that Colum saw through the whole "Claire has a vision" thing and called them out, and Lovat, who I thought believed the ruse, also used it to split his interests in the whole issue once Young Simon declared his support to the Jacobites. Just like the book, he gets to appear to support the Rising, in Charles Stuart's eyes, while being able to say (to King George) that his son acted alone.  I was surprised they chose to portray Young Simon as meeker than I perceived from the book version, but it worked for this storyline.

Laoghaire. Laoghaire, Laoghaire, Laoghaire.  Since I was concerned about them making her so involved in the witch trial and that Jamie immediately connected the ill wish under the bed to her last season, I think this was a fair attempt to put her in a softer position with Claire by letting Claire read her the riot act and then get her to help with Young Simon.  Showing that Jamie hardly noticed Laoghaire and Claire had to ask him to thank her, (for something he had no idea about at the moment but I expect Claire will fill him in) lets him sort of forget her past ill deeds.  I really wondered how they would bring Laoghaire back to "neutral" to let her next part in the story go forth. I think it's more course correction than jump the shark, so, good for them.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Glaze Crazy

[AheadofStraight]

GC - Thank you for the reminder that it was a year before the baby in the book. Did we even have enough time on the show for her to get pregnant again and have another baby? I'm not a stickler about these sorts of things because I'm terrible about remembering time but just curious now.

I think in the mirror during the love scene, you can see that Jamie doesn't have any back scars. Or at least it looked that way on my laptop. Will have to check on the big screen tonight. No biggie because it is such a pain for them to do but it might explain why they kept it shorter.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I think they were in France for at least a year; or close to it. I can't remember how long they were in the buik. But show, I'd say at least..8 months; during the course of Claire's pregnancy, throw in however long it took to get back to Scotland...three weeks? A lot of condensing is being done. Just like a LOT of Jamie's healing was shown in this season, when it was mostly occuring, or was supposed to take place last season.

I'm just going to sit back and relax and see how the last five episodes lead to the eve of Culloden.

[TaurusRose]

On 5/28/2016 at 2:33 AM, Dust Bunny said:

On 5/28/2016 at 2:33 AM, Dust Bunny said:

You’ve been missed, Scotland. Thank you, Anne Kenney, for bringing us home.

This is the Jamie and Claire partnership....So many simple, quiet, and lovely moments, with humor, devotion, and candor. 

The one thing that did seem very uncharacteristic is that Jamie would for even one second consider giving up Lallybroch. 

It’s amazing how little I missed the Paris costumes and sets. The natural and rugged authenticity of Scotland is like putting on cozy pajamas after a long day of being in a dress and high heels. Sure, it’s fun to look nice, but I would much rather feel comfortable and free.

Yes, yes, yes about Scotland!  Loved returning to the majestic splendor of Mother Earth not to mention the no-nonsense attitudes of the Scottish people.  Paris was just too bright, gaudy and pretentious for me.  Your last sentence was so right on point that it just had to be repeated.  I agree that Jamie's considering signing away Lallybroch struck me as highly OOC, but I guess it makes sense to do so in his mind now that he's committed to the idea of changing the future by winning the battle for the throne.  But what I liked best about the return to Scotland is that it's home to Jamie and Claire.  It grounds them and strengthens them as individuals and as a couple. They have roots there and relationships that are just as deep and binding.  They never felt true to themselves in Paris and I'm sure if they'd been a lesser couple, Paris would have broken them.  

 

On 5/28/2016 at 9:33 AM, Andorra said:

...bit too much Leoghaire,but the audience might have needed a reminder who she was and what a scheming and false bitch she is.  

It really rushed through Lallybroch, but I loved it that we at least had the scene with the Baby. It was a very tender moment. I also loved the scene on the field between Jamie and Claire. Finally it was Claire who needed reassurance and needed talking to and Jamie was the one who hadn't given up. 

In general I thought it was a great Jamie episode. He really was back as the old Jamie! 
 

I could have passed on seeing Leoghaire again, but OTOH, it's good that they didn't sweep her part in Claire's "nearly being burned at the stake" experience under the carpet.  I just couldn't buy her remorse or sincerity even before Claire caught her smelling Jamie's shirt, or her later declaration of making him love her.  The girl is a tool; first, last and always.  I wish the Lallybroch scenes could have been longer, too.  I've missed Jenny and Ian so much!  I agree that Jamie seems more mature, confident and at peace in Scotland, whereas Claire, seems to finally grasped the fine arts of finesse and tact.

 

On 5/28/2016 at 0:16 PM, AheadofStraight said:

Maril keeps promising on Twitter that there will be sex coming up. 

Have ye not yet learned to be wary of promises made on Twitter?

 

On 5/28/2016 at 1:25 PM, Dust Bunny said:

I love Jamie-Claire tag-teaming. 

Co-signed.

 

On 5/28/2016 at 1:34 PM, lianau said:

Could we please stop calling Laoghaire names . She was as 16 year old girl in love with Jamie,  who took a beating for her and then made out with her . It had to look like he felt something for her when he was then forced to marry Claire . She thought she was doing the right thing , freeing Jamie from something he hated .

Uh, no.  She is talking out of both sides of her mouth, i.e. exhibiting bitchy behavior.  It doesn't matter what she thought, Jamie told her to her face that he was not breaking his vow.  She's witnessed with her own eyes that Jamie loves his wife.  To continue to act in a delusional state makes her appear either deranged or willfully ignorant.  Continuing to covet a happily married man is being IMO a conniving bitch.

 

Quote

 I certainly did not mind that shot of half-naked Highlanders in their kilts. ;)

There can never be too many shots of half-naked Highlanders in kilts.  LOL

Edited May 29, 2016 by taurusrose
To add Scots in kilts comment

[lianau]

12 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I think they were in France for at least a year; or close to it. I can't remember how long they were in the buik. But show, I'd say at least..8 months; during the course of Claire's pregnancy, throw in however long it took to get back to Scotland...three weeks? A lot of condensing is being done. Just like a LOT of Jamie's healing was shown in this season, when it was mostly occuring, or was supposed to take place last season.

I'm just going to sit back and relax and see how the last five episodes lead to the eve of Culloden.

In the book they arrived in France in what probably was January 1744 (Jamie's execution date was the day before christmas 1743 I think) . They lost Faith in around June (Claire mentioned Jamie being in the Bastille on their first anniversary in book 2 and they got married in June)  and had to leave France within 3 months after Jamie's release . .

[AheadofStraight]

I retract my earlier statement. Sam tweeted that he did have the prosthetic on. Maybe it will be more clear on the big screen than the laptop!

ETA: I still couldn't see them on my big screen. Oh well, I don't really care but this intrigued me :)

Edited May 29, 2016 by AheadofStraight

[Nidratime]

They're really laying the groundwork for Laoghaire and Jamie. Claire: "Say thank you to Laoghaire, Jamie, even though you don't know why."

[Archery]

Even if Jamie had signed the deed, there was a chance it would remain in the family, passing to Jenny's son on the Auld Fox's death (since Young Simon would either die in battle or be forfeit). I really appreciated the humour all through this episode, even Laoghaire's clumsy Mata Hari moments, after the unrelenting sadness of episode 207. 

I loved the Jenny/Jamie argument, with him ending it by calling her Janet! It may be the first fight he's won.  

I think the show has done a really good condensing the hundreds of pages of intrigue and politics so that we get a flavour, bug it doesn't bog the story down.  

And Fergus on that wee pony.  OMG, so cute.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Archery

[mjforty]

15 hours ago, lianau said:

Could we please stop calling Laoghaire names . She was as 16 year old girl in love with Jamie,  who took a beating for her and then made out with her . It had to look like he felt something for her when he was then forced to marry Claire . She thought she was doing the right thing , freeing Jamie from something he hated . Then she ends up pining for her first love for years  only for that dream to turn into disaster because traumatized Jamie can reciprocate her feelings and they were just wrong for each other .

I don't care if she was 16 and in the throes of her first love.  She tried to murder her romantic rival.  And even if one decides to excuse Laoghaire's fake note as a rash decision in which she didn't understand the full consequences, there is still Laoghaire's testimony at the trial, weeks later, where it is apparent that Claire will executed if found guilty.  This is not the behavior of a misguided lovelorn teen.  This is the behavior of a selfish, delusional, destructive woman who cares only for herself and her needs.  And her disastrous marriage is entirely her fault.  Jamie was willing to try and have a loving marriage.  It was Lagohaire who was unable to let Claire's ghost go and therefore could not reciprocate Jamie's attempts at intimacy.  Then, she goes and blames Jamie for leaving her, even though she was cold and flinched when he tried to touch her.  I have absolutely no sympathy for Laoghaire and believe she deserves all the scorn that is heaped upon her.

[insubordination]

Quote

Could we please stop calling Laoghaire names

 I feel I must explain, I only call her Laigwtf because I can't spell her name. Same for that actor Mathew Mconawtfhey. She would dance on Claire's ashes though, so I can think of a few names. Ash dancer! Actually, it annoyed me that Claire immediately used LWTF's feelings to her own advantage. Claire has been know to do that  i.e. Mary not being encouraged to marry the person she loved.

Edited May 29, 2016 by insubordination

[Petunia846]

Oh, I remembered the other shout out to the future...it was the rosary.

[Jodithgrace]

Hee..every time I have to spell Laoghaire, I just cut and paste from another post.  

I think that BPC thought he was doing Jamie a favor by signing his name to the document. After all, Jamie couldn't be there in person, but surely would have wanted to be the first to sign, since he was such a fervent Charles supporter. 

I'm surprised that since they threw Laoghaire into the mix, that they didn't mention Geilis. I

Spoiler

guess they couldn't since that might spoil the surprise about her later in the series. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Jodithgrace

[Nidratime]

Jamie calling Simon Fraser "cousin" instead of uncle ... I guess that's because Simon is so young.

Simon is different here, but I like the look of the poet about him. It makes him seem like a dreamer, someone who would be attracted to marching off to war to help his king, not really knowing what he's risking or asking of his men.

[Haleth]

I didn't mind the appearance of Laoghaire, even though having her travel with Colum was a bit contrived.  I was just so happy to see Jenny and Ian and Lollybroch again (and Claire and Jamie back to their old selves) that nothing could ruin the episode for me.  

Looking forward to seeing Dougal again and meeting young John soon.

13 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Could we please stop calling Laoghaire names . She was as 16 year old girl in love with Jamie,  who took a beating for her and then made out with her . It had to look like he felt something for her when he was then forced to marry Claire . She thought she was doing the right thing , freeing Jamie from something he hated .

Even if we could dismiss the past events as the immaturity of a teenager, it's apparent she still hasn't gotten over being love struck and that her apology wasn't completely sincere.  A rational woman would give up the fantasy that someday he'd fall in love with her.  Laoghaire never gets over her obsession until she actually gets what she wanted.  And finds it wasn't all she imagined.

(Spell check certainly gets a work out in this forum.  LOL)

[Nidratime]

What did Jamie put in that cup to make it explode in the fireplace when confronting his grandfather? Or, was it just the alcohol? Lord Lovat seemed taken aback.

Interesting that Lovat believes in and seeks answers in the supernatural, just as King Louis does.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Nidratime

[nodorothyparker]

I'm happy they're back in Scotland but this episode weirdly managed to feel both rushed (everything at Lollybroch) and draggy (so much of the neverending negotiations at Beaufort Castle).  Jenny's actress continues to make the most of what she's given to work with and absolutely nails book Jenny for me in everything she says and does.

Once I got over my surprise at seeing Colum inserted in the Fraser clan story, his presence began to make a certain amount of sense to me.  Colum was wily enough to have been wanting to gauge the leaders and who was going where before the actual fighting would have gotten underway and it's always good seeing Gary Lewis again.  He sold me that his concern about being dragged into an unwinnable war and for Jamie was real.  Now I'm guessing Colum's book death will probably happen offscreen and that the next time we see the MacKenzies Dougal will be leading them.  The Old Fox wasn't bad but I did miss some of his repugnant humor from the book.

I think I get the shoehorning of Laoghaire into the story given the role she'll play in the third season/third book but it changes so many motivations that I fear it will only make both her and Jamie look worse than they already come off.  Jamie knowing in detail about her role in the witch trial but marrying her anyway makes him seem fickle to Claire's memory.  This outwardly penitent and eager to help, yet secret laundry sniffing and eternally pining and scheming Laoghaire is a lot harder to take than book Laoghaire.  The book character does something stupid and vindictive at 16 that could have had disastrous results, but is otherwise a mostly sad creature whose biggest failing is convincing herself she's in love with a man who never even really thought of her except as a band-aid for his own empty life, let alone ever loved her back.  She would have two other husbands and children and mostly did her best within the conventions of her time.  Show Laoghaire actively participated in the witch trial in hopes of seeing Claire burnt alive.  She's actively pining here for a married man who may have earlier given her mixed signals but now cares so little he doesn't even know why he's thanking her.  

I'll admit I did get a small kick though out of her idea of "helping" with the plan to get young Simon on their side was to let him look down her dress.  The actor playing Young Simon seems too insubstantial for a character who was supposed to be leader of men in his own right.

Edited May 29, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Nidratime]

Young Simon makes me think of Alex Randall -- two seemingly gentle young men Claire is trying to manipulate for her own reasons.

[CatMack]

I can't speak for @lianau, but for me the problem with they way Laoghaire is talked about on this board isn't that the discourse is negative - she's at best a pathetic character, at worse nefarious, being critical of her actions and motivations is justified.  My problem is the name calling itself.  Black Jack Randall is a rapist and pedophile and has done far worse, and he's always referred to be some variation of his actual name.  Laoghaire is called Hosebeast, Leghair, things of that nature.  Whether you mean it to be or not it comes off as misogynistic when the tone of the conversation is more respectful to a male rapist than a teenaged girl, even a conniving one.  The casual misogyny that pops up regularly is one of the reasons I have barely been around these boards compared to season 1.  I'm sure none of you mean it to come off that way, like I said, but it absolutely does.  

[nodorothyparker]

I don't like the name calling either, and the Black Jack comparison is apt.  We're never given any real motive or explanation for why Black Jack is the way is.  Over the course of two seasons, he's raped everything and everyone he's been able to get his hands on.  Yet the conversation still finds humor in him pouring out the fussy officer's wine in season 1 or being humiliated by the French court and other than the random "sadistic bastard" or asshole he's rarely called anything other than his actual name. 

I'll conceded that part of the problem may be how they've ramped up Laoghaire's character and Jamie obsession for the show.  She's coming off almost as a fan fiction of herself.  But some of this exists in solely bookreader space as well.  How dare a girl of an age where girls are often stupid over guys they're attracted to read anything into the mixed signals the object of her affection was giving her?  Hasn't she read the series to know that Jamie and Claire are the one big true love forever and she's just a pathetic hanger on? 

[CatMack]

I'm firmly on Claire's side in this last episode - I don't hate Laoghaire, I pity her.  She's still a fairly pathetic character in the books but I've never been comfortable with the level of vitriol she receives from book readers.  I think the show did muddy the waters by having her more involved with the witch trial, but they have made efforts to give more nuance to her motivation too.  She's not just jealous, she seemed to genuinely believe Claire was a witch and she was trying to save Jamie.  Of course that's foolish from our standpoint, but it's what felt real to her.  Apparently "that's what people believed back then" is only an acceptable motivation when it comes to our favorite male characters displaying misogyny or racism.  

 

IDK, like I said, I'm not even particularly a Laoghaire fan, she mostly inspires pity, but the way fandom treats her makes me want to defend her.    

[A Beaverhausen]

2 hours ago, CatMack said:

I can't speak for @lianau, but for me the problem with they way Laoghaire is talked about on this board isn't that the discourse is negative - she's at best a pathetic character, at worse nefarious, being critical of her actions and motivations is justified.  My problem is the name calling itself.  Black Jack Randall is a rapist and pedophile and has done far worse, and he's always referred to be some variation of his actual name.  Laoghaire is called Hosebeast, Leghair, things of that nature.  Whether you mean it to be or not it comes off as misogynistic when the tone of the conversation is more respectful to a male rapist than a teenaged girl, even a conniving one.  The casual misogyny that pops up regularly is one of the reasons I have barely been around these boards compared to season 1.  I'm sure none of you mean it to come off that way, like I said, but it absolutely does.  

Well said.  Black Jack and Loaghaire have major character flaws and mental issues, but pejorative names for only one of them is misogynistic IMO. 

[maraleia]

Jenny's baby that Claire delivered was Margaret whom they didn't cast for this episode because Katherine is Jenny and Ian's third child. Am I correct in this?

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, A Beaverhausen said:

Well said.  Black Jack and Loaghaire have major character flaws and mental issues, but pejorative names for only one of them is misogynistic IMO. 

I might use the term sexist as opposed to misogynistic as I'm not sure they hate women, but are using a double standard with regards to sex.

I haven't seen the episode yet, but will chime in on book Loaghaire's behalf. IMO, if this were a different story, Laoghaire would be the heroine of the piece--saving her one true love from the grips of bewitchment. Even though she goes about it all wrong, she was trying to do the right thing in her own naive and messed up way.

[Athena]

4 minutes ago, maraleia said:

Jenny's baby that Claire delivered was Margaret whom they didn't cast for this episode because Katherine is Jenny and Ian's third child. Am I correct in this?

Yes. 

[peacefrog]

This episode was a hot mess. At times it was entertaining and other times it dragged but still far better than the majority of the Paris episodes. I always felt the Lovat part of the book was going to be skipped on the show. What do I know since they thought it was worthy of an entire episode. 

I didn't mind Laoghrie showing up. She's far worse in the show. I always kind of liked her in the books. I mean not liked her as a person but as a character who is complicated. After seeing how her story plays out I'm able to view her arch much more sympathetically. She can't be all bad by raising 2 wonderful daughters and the concern she shows about Henri-Christain, who she's never met definitely adds layers.  At this point the only way I can see how Jamie would marry her is because of her 2 daughters. Maybe that's the angle they'll use?

 

[Andorra]

I don't pity TV Leoghaire at all. I think she's a bitch and I actually like bitchy, false, conniving Leoghaire of the show better than book Leoghaire. At least we're sure where to stand with her in the show. In the book there's this ambivalence of what Jamie felt for her when he married her. I think in the show, after what we know now about her, he can only marry her for pity of her situation and feeling sad for her daughters. IMO there's no way, that he will even think it possible to develop other feelings for her. I hated the whole Leoghaire disaster in the book, because I didn't understand Jamie. I think in the TV show it will be easier for me. 

[nodorothyparker]

They are making it very difficult to see TV Laoghaire as anything other than an outright bunny boiling Fatal Attraction level villain.

Jamie muddies the waters a lot in understanding his motivations by claiming in Voyager that he tried so hard to make it work when it becomes pretty apparent through things he later says and the things Laoghaire says in both DOA and Echo that he really didn't.  I believe he's telling the truth when he says that he did it because he needed to be needed.  He hadn't been home from England all that long at that point.  Lollybroch had gone on all those years without him and he wasn't laird anymore.  He was heartsick about leaving William and couldn't talk about it.  He needed something to do and the prospect of marriage with someone he didn't love but had never really minded that much with a ready-made family seemed as good an answer as any.  But then they individually tell us that Laoghaire was skittish from abuse by one of her previous husbands and when Jamie did try to touch her it was mostly rote and impersonal.  He doesn't feel anything for her and doesn't talk to her about anything.  He's just going through the motions.  As the crush she waited so long for, he's a continual disappointment and she gives him days of extended silent treatment.  He's calling out for his "dead" wife in his sleep.  It sounds pretty miserable from both ends.  Thus it's hardly surprising even given the times that within months he's moved out.

It'll be interesting to see how they portray this on TV or if they do given the changes they're making.

[lianau]

1 hour ago, Andorra said:

 I hated the whole Leoghaire disaster in the book, because I didn't understand Jamie. I think in the TV show it will be easier for me. 

It's pretty obvious for me why he married her . He came home from England after being away for a long time , first in Ardsmuir prison and than Helwater . Traumatized from his captivity and having to leave Willy behind with nobody to talk to . Lallybroch belongs to young Jamie and the younger kids don't even recognize him anymore . His input in the day to day running of the estate is sought but more as a courtesy , not because it's needed. Jamie tells Claire , Laoghaire needed a husband and he needed something , that they might be able to help each other . He never saw Laoghaire as anything but  a crutch to save himself  and he couldn't understand that she wanted more than just somebody feeding her and her daughters .Especially since that person also happened to be the guy she'd dreamed of all her life .

[toolazy]

I'm pretty sure that people started using nicknames for Laoghaire because her name is difficult to spell, rather than for sexist reasons.  It's not always about gender politics. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by toolazy

[TaurusRose]

6 hours ago, CatMack said:

I can't speak for @lianau, but for me the problem with they way Laoghaire is talked about on this board isn't that the discourse is negative - she's at best a pathetic character, at worse nefarious, being critical of her actions and motivations is justified.  My problem is the name calling itself.  Black Jack Randall is a rapist and pedophile and has done far worse, and he's always referred to be some variation of his actual name.  Laoghaire is called Hosebeast, Leghair, things of that nature.  Whether you mean it to be or not it comes off as misogynistic when the tone of the conversation is more respectful to a male rapist than a teenaged girl, even a conniving one.  The casual misogyny that pops up regularly is one of the reasons I have barely been around these boards compared to season 1.  I'm sure none of you mean it to come off that way, like I said, but it absolutely does.  

Beautifully stated and I appreciate your point.  However, I haven't read the books, I always use Laoghaire's proper name when I begin talking about her, and I still see her as a manipulative bitch.  I will continue to call it as I see it.  Sexism and misogyny aren't part of my wheelhouse in this.  

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Outlander Comes Home To Visit Its Elders

When the Frasers are forced back into the Jacobite rebellion, Jamie must ask his loathsome grandfather for help.