S02.E08: The Fox's Lair

[Archery]

8 hours ago, Nidratime said:

What did Jamie put in that cup to make it explode in the fireplace when confronting his grandfather? Or, was it just the alcohol? Lord Lovat seemed taken aback.

 

I expect that the whiskey in that glass was from the estate's own still, approximately 1000 proof, and very flammable. That old skint Lovat was probably half impressed by the magical talk and half wondering if Jamie had lost his mind, wasting good booze like that.  

I think there's plenty of room and time in 20 years for Jamie to marry Laoghaire, for his own reasons, whether he knows about her role in the witch trial or not.  

[Haleth]

44 minutes ago, Archery said:

I expect that the whiskey in that glass was from the estate's own still, approximately 1000 proof, and very flammable. That old skint Lovat was probably half impressed by the magical talk and half wondering if Jamie had lost his mind, wasting good booze like that.

I know I was!

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

However, I haven't read the books, I always use Laoghaire's proper name when I begin talking about her, and I still see her as a manipulative bitch.  I will continue to call it as I see it.  Sexism and misogyny aren't part of my wheelhouse in this.  

I have read the buiks, but last year. And I use both names, because one, I didn't know what her name was when I tried to read the series over 20 years ago--my friends refered to Loaghaire as "hosebeast" and explained to me why they called her that. I could see why they did, and I also took to calling her that, because I think she is a beast and nothing will change my mind. Not what happens years down the road, nothing.  And I've also called that murdering piece of trash, also known as Black Jack Randall, a sadistic, psychotic, raping, piece of shit. If there is a clever nickname for him that would require less words for me to type, please tell me. I'm an equal opportunity name caller to those who I think deserve such names. Sexism and misogyny aren't part of my wheelhouse in this, either.

Her claiming to Claire that she had "seen the error of her ways" and was now repenting and trying to make up for what she did, all turned out to be nothing but a lie, when I could see her sniffing Jamie's shirt and getting all defensive and confrontational with Claire over it. Not to mention that how she would "one day earn" Jamie's love as well. Keep dreaming your delusional dreams, you besom.

Yes, I'm a mean, mean, cold-hearted person. 

[Clawdette]

I loved viewing the height disparity in this episode.  Jamie towers over Jenny yet she doesn't give an inch. Lord Lovett is (I think) the only person of note that Jamie has had to look up to but he doesn't yield to him. Murtagh and Jamie are roughly the same height and that plays well into their relationship. 

I loved Claire's clothes for their simplicity and weather appropriateness. And Jamie in his kilt is made of win. 

[mjforty]

 I did love the exchange between Claire and Ian "Take care of your Fraser."  The bonding the two of them have, acknowledging that being a spouse to a Fraser comes with its own special set of challenges.

[Petunia846]

16 hours ago, toolazy said:

I'm pretty sure that people started using nicknames for Laoghaire because her name is difficult to spell, rather than for sexist reasons. 

That's what I was going to say. Also, when the books were first published people didn't know how to pronounce it either. I personally just try not to talk about her or BJR.

[cryptaknight]

All due respect, but Claire tells us how to pronounce Laoghaire in the first book- L'heery. So that excuse doesn't wash, and certainly pronunciation has nothing to do with typing it out (and if you type in Scots brogue in this forum, which is frankly odd to me, that excuse definitely doesn't wash, because typing and saying Laoghaire should be right in that wheelhouse). But even if it did, nicknames do not have to be so perjorative- "hosebeast" certainly has nothing to do with the look or pronunciation of "Laoghaire." She's a disliked character, and people are prone to call women they don't like nasty, sexist names. I don't see anyone calling BJR "Jerkoff Randall" or whatever.

I was never a fan of the Jamie-marries-Laoghaire plot in the book (and I read out of order, having been given a copy of DoA mostly because it looked like the Scots romances I favored at the time, so I was really predisposed to not like Laoghaire when she put in her first appearance in Outlander). However, if they are sticking to that, all the Laoghaire nonsense in this episode was probably necessary to get Jamie to that point, given the changes they made in season one. I have to roll my eyes about Diana crying Jump The Shark over it. 

I did love being back in Scotland and the return of Claire's lovely knit-wear. The scene with Jamie and Katherine was so touching; I thought it was wonderful.

I dread knowing what's coming, though.

Edited May 30, 2016 by cryptaknight

[WatchrTina]

I have family in town so no time to analyze this episode in depth this week.  There was plenty to love in this ep -- pretty much everything at Lallybroch -- and I do love an ep where Jamie and Claire are in sync and working together.  My biggest beef with this episode is that I cannot get over the idea that Jamie would sign away Lallybroch.  That did not work for me so I tried to fan-wank that he KNEW Claire was going to stage the vision and they cooked it up together.  Except that that puts Claire in danger  -- the olde fox actually comes at her with with a knife -- and I can't imagine TV!Jamie agreeing to a scheme that would put her in danger and I don't like the idea that he wasn't smart enough to foresee that danger, which puts me back to assuming Claire cooked up the vision on the spur of of the moment.  If that's true, Jamie really was going to sign Lallybroch away.  It's a problem for me.

But gosh it felt good to be back in Scotland.

Also, thank you to the show runners for the gratuitous shots of Jamie's knees and shirtless Jamie in the bedroom.  Okay that prior comment is shallow of me but, all kidding aside, I think Jamie looked particularly appealing in this episode and I think he was deliberately shown that way in order to signal his comfort at being back home and in his right place.  He was a fish out of water for seven episodes.  It was so nice to see him relax back into the world where he belongs.

Edited May 30, 2016 by WatchrTina

[AheadofStraight]

More stuff I hope we get in deleted scenes on the BluRay - comments from Diana G

Quote

They actually filmed a detailed (and quite good) reaction to Jared's letter. They included it in the early version of the episode, but at some point, someone in charge evidently decided that it wasn't clear enough _why_ Jamie would go ahead and fight, so they cut all that, and did a pickup scene (that's why Jamie's hair is much shorter in that scene than in the ones before or after it) where Jamie gives Claire the "Because of you..." speech, which was inserted in the second Locked cut of 208.

I don't think they were wrong to do that, btw. But I would have liked to see the rest of Jamie's reaction to the letter; it was very good and included an excellent ad lib line of Sam's. This is always the case, though; they film much more than can be used (because the danger of not having _enough_ is much worse than the effort required to film extra takes or scenes as they go along), and end up not using some really excellent stuff. Regrettable, but only to those of us who saw it in the first place.

(Like the spot at the end of episode 7, when Claire asks Jamie if he really wants to try again. As filmed, he looks up at her with eyes blazing and says, "I gave you my body and soul when we wed, until our life should be done. And. It. Is. Not. Done!" They cut that in the final edit and just let them talk about Scotland. <eye-roll>)

[chocolatetruffle]

23 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I've also called that murdering piece of trash, also known as Black Jack Randall, a sadistic, psychotic, raping, piece of shit. If there is a clever nickname for him that would require less words for me to type, please tell me. I'm an equal opportunity name caller to those who I think deserve such names. Sexism and misogyny aren't part of my wheelhouse in this, either.

Mine either, so in the interest of fairness (and fun!) we should be able to come up with a disgustingly proper portmanteau for BJR if we put our heads together.  I'll start:  Slime Dick, Rapey McNasty, BJRPOS (Black Jack Raping Piece of Shit). Come on, help me out...

[Dust Bunny]

4 hours ago, AheadofStraight said:

More stuff I hope we get in deleted scenes on the BluRay - comments from Diana G

Were those comments on CompuServe? I can't remember where I heard/saw it, but earlier Diana had mentioned Sam's ad lib as something to look out for. When that scene happened, I was excited to see it play out. I think it involved a scream, like in the book. His ad lib had something to do with "I'm going to help him win." So I was bummed all that was cut.

Tangentially, I'm beginning to worry that Diana is critiquing production too much to the public. The eye-rolls especially come off a bit strong. I could see how Ron, Starz, or Sony could worry it damages the show and would stop running scripts by her. Yet, Maril's recent tweets to book fans of "I understand", regarding not as much Jamie-Claire time has me a wee nervous too. I'm hoping it's just that Maril is the cushion for fans to feel they're being heard and not a sign that there's a bit of a schism in the writer's room. I don't want to see something that's not there.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[Dejana]

2 hours ago, chocolatetruffle said:

Mine either, so in the interest of fairness (and fun!) we should be able to come up with a disgustingly proper portmanteau for BJR if we put our heads together.  I'll start:  Slime Dick, Rapey McNasty, BJRPOS (Black Jack Raping Piece of Shit). Come on, help me out...

And if people did use flippant nicknames about Black Jack Randall, too, no one would possibly look at that and criticize them for making light of sexual assault and its victims, not at all! (Yeah, they would). Could it be that people are more likely to be flippant about a character who's an irritant in a love triangle than a character who's a repeated sex offender and child rapist?  Also, the deliberate misspelling of her name with monikers like Loghead or Leghair, is just another method through which some fans chose to show their contempt for the character. If she were a Susan instead of Laoghaire, the fans who don't like her still wouldn't, but wouldn't engage in that particular bit of nose-thumbing. Could this be viewed as some form of ethnic mockery? Perhaps. Inherent sexism?

I won't try to make a case for "hosebeast" being gender-neutral and repeated use of derogatory nicknames is really not even my thing, but as for the latter, I'd like to point out that men in real life--even presidents/world leaders--aren't necessarily exempt from snide sobriquets out of some sort of respect inherently afforded to Y-chromosones. If Claire's third wheel husband were, for some reason, named Grippiud or Cwmtwrch, I think you'd see some fans who'd never spell it correctly, or would come up with mocking nicknames out of it. But he's Frank, so the contempt (for those who have it) turns in a different direction.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Dejana

[AheadofStraight]

1 hour ago, Dust Bunny said:

Were those comments on CompuServe? I can't remember where I heard/saw it, but earlier Diana had mentioned Sam's ad lib as something to look out for. When that scene happened, I was excited to see it play out. I think it involved a scream, like in the book. His ad lib had something to do with "I'm going to help him win." So I was bummed all that was cut.

Tangentially, I'm beginning to worry that Diana is critiquing production too much to the public. The eye-rolls especially come off a bit strong. I could see how Ron, Starz, or Sony could worry it damages the show and would stop running scripts by her. Yet, Maril's recent tweets to book fans of "I understand", regarding not as much Jamie-Claire time has me a wee nervous too. I'm hoping it's just that Maril is the cushion for fans to feel they're being heard and not a sign that there's a bit of a schism in the writer's room. I don't want to see something that's not there.

Yes. on CompuServe. If it makes you feel better, she really seems to love the remainder of the season.

[toolazy]

It actually makes me feel a little better that Diana occasionally says negative things about the adaptation.  If she was unremittingly positive, I wouldn't believe her - I would instead believe that she was somehow contractually forbidden from saying negative things in public. 

[Andorra]

I think Laoghaire is a fictional character after all, not a real person, so I don't get the fuss, actually. Hating fictional characters is half of the fun in being a fan of the show. I'm totally for BJRPOS as a name for Black Jack. Perfect name choice!

[A Beaverhausen]

On May 30, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Dejana said:

And if people did use flippant nicknames about Black Jack Randall, too, no one would possibly look at that and criticize them for making light of sexual assault and its victims, not at all! (Yeah, they would). Could it be that people are more likely to be flippant about a character who's an irritant in a love triangle than a character who's a repeated sex offender and child rapist?  Also, the deliberate misspelling of her name with monikers like Loghead or Leghair, is just another method through which some fans chose to show their contempt for the character. If she were a Susan instead of Laoghaire, the fans who don't like her still wouldn't, but wouldn't engage in that particular bit of nose-thumbing. Could this be viewed as some form of ethnic mockery? Perhaps. Inherent sexism?

I won't try to make a case for "hosebeast" being gender-neutral and repeated use of derogatory nicknames is really not even my thing, but as for the latter, I'd like to point out that men in real life--even presidents/world leaders--aren't necessarily exempt from snide sobriquets out of some sort of respect inherently afforded to Y-chromosones. If Claire's third wheel husband were, for some reason, named Grippiud or Cwmtwrch, I think you'd see some fans who'd never spell it correctly, or would come up with mocking nicknames out of it. But he's Frank, so the contempt (for those who have it) turns in a different direction.

Your comment made me laugh (Cwmtwrch?), and I agree with 100% of it. I get that people have antipathy towards certain characters, but I believe DG said at one point that there is some of her in all of them. Therefore I try not to judge too harshly.

[WatchrTina]

I just re-watched this episode in preparation for ep 209 and I was struck by Lord Lovat"s son joking that his father might be "immortal".  Does anyone else think that was a shout-out to the fans of the show "The Highlander"?  The lead character of that show, Duncan MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod, (my first fictional Scottish boyfriend, ye ken) WAS immortal.

[satrunrose]

On May 30, 2016 at 10:09 PM, Dejana said:

... Could it be that people are more likely to be flippant about a character who's an irritant in a love triangle than a character who's a repeated sex offender and child rapist? ...

This is where I am. I feel like comparing Laoghaire to Black Jack Randall is like comparing apples to something nasty and decaying that will give you botulism if you eat it. It feels weird to find or use pithy and dismissive nicknames for a monster like that. Book Laoghaire isn't ever a monster, although she is delusional and a fool. I feel like a more apt comparison would be looking at how fandom talks about Gellis Duncan vs BJR as both are psychopaths with some very nasty sex crimes to their credit. 

[toolazy]

16 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I just re-watched this episode in preparation for ep 209 and I was struck by Lord Lovat"s son joking that his father might be "immortal".  Does anyone else think that was a shout-out to the fans of the show "The Highlander"?  The lead character of that show, Duncan MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod, (my first fictional Scottish boyfriend, ye ken) WAS immortal.

I'll believe that when one character says to another that "there can only be one."

[WatchrTina]

Quote

 "there can only be one."

I believe you meant to say "There can BE only one."  :)

[ulkis]

On 5/30/2016 at 11:04 AM, cryptaknight said:

However, if they are sticking to that, all the Laoghaire nonsense in this episode was probably necessary to get Jamie to that point, given the changes they made in season one. I have to roll my eyes about Diana crying Jump The Shark over it. 

What did she say?

[AheadofStraight]

She wasn’t a fan of the Claire and Laoghaire scene. As originally written, they had Claire grabbing her hair and repeatedly slapping her in the face. She felt it was way over the top/OOC and asked them to pull it but they wouldn’t and agreed to bring it down a notch.

[ulkis]

8 hours ago, AheadofStraight said:

She wasn’t a fan of the Claire and Laoghaire scene. As originally written, they had Claire grabbing her hair and repeatedly slapping her in the face. She felt it was way over the top/OOC and asked them to pull it but they wouldn’t and agreed to bring it down a notch.

Whaaaaaat. I agree with her there, actually. That would have been dumb. I wasn't a fan of when Claire slapped her in season 1 either, before the witch trial. Thanks for the info.

[Kim0820]

On 5/28/2016 at 2:06 AM, maraleia said:

I'm glad that they're back in Scotland and it was good to see Jenny and Ian.

I missed something perhaps, and wondered how they could go back to Scotland.  They were forced to leave.  Jamie was under sentence of death in prison and escaped with the cows and is thus a fugitive.  The original price on Jamie's head and the new death sentence for being with the Watch; where did they go?  

It was nice BJR is not around.  And nice that the beating up on Jamie theme does not continue in Season 2.  

On 5/28/2016 at 9:33 AM, Andorra said:

The only complain I have is, that the show really is a 50s clean show by now, always fading to black when it gets the slightest bit steamy. Where's the sex??

I noticed that fade to black scene.  They may feel they already covered that they have a great sex life.  On 21st century terms, too.  The waxing and shaving - that's a thing now, but was it then?  I suppose there are histories somewhere of sexual practices.  But per the show, nothing has changed and sex in the 18th century was just like it is now.  

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, Kim0820 said:

I missed something perhaps, and wondered how they could go back to Scotland.  They were forced to leave.  Jamie was under sentence of death in prison and escaped with the cows and is thus a fugitive.  The original price on Jamie's head and the new death sentence for being with the Watch; where did they go?  

 

In episode 207 Claire slept with the king of France to free Jamie from jail there & also   secure  a pardon in Scotland! 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Cdh20