S04.E12: A Roy Rogers in Franconia

[Darrenbrett]

I actually really liked the scene, and the dialog, when Paige accused Liz of not answering her question. That felt real. That felt like, not just a generation gap - but a cultural gap. Paige, thoroughly Americanized, expected a response about personal feelings. Elizabeth, for just a moment, gave her a dumbfounded look that said, "I just answered your question". I like these awkward scenes where Liz is trying to connect with Paige, but can't quite get past their vast differences in culture-shaping. Feels very authentic to me.  

Also, the way Kerri purses her lips, nods, pauses... before answering Paige's questions, is just so golden. I just love it. There is so much going on in those few seconds. I would love a video montage of JUST those moments.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Darrenbrett

[krisdee]

I will miss William...Dylan Baker is an actor I have seen so often on Law and Order, but this role has given him some scope. It's not a huge part, but William is completely there, i feel I do know this guy. And his line readings are wonderful. Describing dying from Lassa fever as undignified. Yeah, that's one way to call it.

Aderholt should be promoted to take charge of the FBI...he's the man. And after remembering how terrible that scene was when Elizabeth killed that very brave woman..to see her son be so cavalier about her death was shocking.

That Paige was flipped out about her mother killing the would be rapist felt ok to me...she may well have never seen a dead body before, or even attended a funeral, and the first death is deeply troubling. That her mother took this guy out so fast and with a concealed knife (??) is a far distance from the suburban mom Elizabeth has been playing with Paige all these years...no wonder the kid is freaked and trying to process that. I doubt she has even considered the possibility of rape yet...she's trying to put together the ninja killer with mom/travel agent. 

Oleg is never going to Nairobi...and I figure that Tatiana and her "success" now makes his skin crawl. I hope he defects before he get shipped back to mother Russia.

The mugger pulled a knife. Elizabeth used his own weapon against him.

[jjj]

2 hours ago, zibnchy said:

Oh for crying out loud, Paige. It isn't as if Elizabeth dropped a car on the guy.

For heaven's sake, Paige, it's not like she sliced them to death with the jagged edge of a broken liquor bottle. 

[VCRTracking]

I like that Phillip and Elizabeth essentially told Paige she didn't have to go "Mata Hari" on the Beeman kid.

[jjj]

When they showed the outdoor Russian cityscape, then the hand reaching for the telephone, did anyone else think it was going to be Martha?

I really thought the "hook the computer up to the television" was going to have a payoff -- either Henry would find secrets in the garage, or Russian/Cyrillic language/alphabet would start to display on the screen.

Stan said what I said in last week's thread:  tear down the building and fire everybody!  (except, I kept Agent Aderholt)

I think Tatiana's promotion might be blighted by Oleg's revelation of her operation in bioweapons.

Keri Russell should start a product line of loose coats and throw pillows; she is spending so much time behind them. 

I also noticed they kept avoiding having Philip and Henry stand next to each other, as Henry is now taller!  When Henry sat at the computer, Philip stood, and visa-versa.  And the camera angles in the upstairs hallway were tilted to make Philip look taller. 

[scartact]

This episode was obviously designed to set the pieces up for the finale, so there are aspects of it that felt rushed. Particularly, Paige's very fast recovery from watching her mother kill someone, though I appreciate that the show didn't tackle it from the angle of, "Paige freaks out again!" As much as I'm very often a Jennings family apologist, I would have been very ticked off at another one of those episodes. I know people are annoyed by her, but I just very rarely feel annoyed by characters on this show (except the Groovyhairs; it's often an exception when they don't annoy me).

I quite liked Paige calling out Elizabeth (and Philip) for never fully answering her questions, though I also felt like the obvious reason for that is she hasn't shown the best responses to what they had answered for her in the past. But her asking Elizabeth to explain why she would go into this work knowing the dangers was a nice moment of Elizabeth confronting more of the truth of why she joined the KGB in the first place. It's interesting too to give Elizabeth that space for reflection, because this season she's been at her most reflective and emotional. I also loved when she tells Philip Paige just naturally reported information from Matthew to her, and it just made me think that maybe she does have regrets about collapsing that divide between their spy life and their family life with Paige. That just reminds me too of where Paige was at earlier this season.

When Gabriel told William his work matters echoed to me when Philip tells Elizabeth in an earlier episode that everything matters to him. Anyway, often Gabriel's relationship with his agents are paralleled with Philip and Elizabeth to Paige, so it was interesting to see the contrast of P&E stumbling over details with Paige, while Gabriel is incredibly deft at convincing William to finish just this one final mission and then he can go home.

That scene where Oleg calls his mother was great and very well-acted. I loved it and it made me think back to the assertion that the show is the most motherhood-obsessed prestige drama, partly because his conversation with her seems to be what ultimately triggers him to go to Stan. Of course, it was great to see the FBI effectively suss out who the mole is, even if that's going to be potentially very awful news for everyone involved.

Spoiler

Also, I suppose this indicates the titular persona non grata of the episode is very probably William?

Lastly, I've been really fascinated with the episode titles this season (well, partly because this is the first season of the show I'm watching in real time) and I've been trying to make sense of this episode title's significance. Most obviously, it's an indirect referral to the Mail Robot's treason by way of random lady who, uh, services the Mail Robot. Anyone have any additional thoughts, or is it fairly self-explanatory?

[AlliMo]

Honestly, I don't think Paige is acting unrealistically at all. She's like her mother in that she's sincere about things and has a strong moral center. Adolescence is already difficult, and I she's actually shown considerable maturity in trying to deal with a pretty earth shattering situation. Everything that she thought she knew about her life and who she was has been turned upside down, and she's trying to process things as best she can. Anyone in her shoes, especially someone that young, would be confused as hell.

[jjj]

28 minutes ago, scartact said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, I suppose this indicates the titular persona non grata of the episode is very probably William?

Lastly, I've been really fascinated with the episode titles this season (well, partly because this is the first season of the show I'm watching in real time) and I've been trying to make sense of this episode title's significance. Most obviously, it's an indirect referral to the Mail Robot's treason by way of random lady who, uh, services the Mail Robot. Anyone have any additional thoughts, or is it fairly self-explanatory?

I think it is self-explanatory -- the mail robot operation was set in motion at the Roy Rogers in Franconia. 

Last week, there was one too many scenes of Elizabeth/Pastor Tim; I felt the same way this week with Elizabeth/Paige.  There were little bits in each scene that moved things along, but it felt very static when they were together.  Not at all like when Philip and William are together, which is always crackling with undertones. 

Who were those random people the camera focused upon:  in the park meeting with William, the African-American man who flicked a cigarette and touched his face as he walked toward the camera; and the woman in the street when Philip was picking up William later -- were both of those lookouts, or is the camera work just making us see agents where there are none?  I hope this means there is always someone doing advance work for Philip before he meets William.

[anonymiss]

They're raising Paige in such a stereotypically American way so of course she's an entitled snowflake and Holly Taylor really does rely on one expression.

It was a very frustrating episode to get through.

Edited June 2, 2016 by anonymiss

[Blakeston]

5 hours ago, dramachick said:

I've had more than enough of Paige.  I just can't...   The fear of being raped and murdered is so ingrained in the psyche of women and girls in this society that I have a hard time believing she would see her mother in a negative light for saving their lives.  Realistically, she would want her mother to teach her that kind of self-defense!  This is one of those times that the predominance of male writers is evident.  I can accept all that other whiny angst coming from a pampered middle class teenage girl in the suburbs, but having a problem with her mother killing a murderous rapist before he killed them?  Naw, I don't buy it.  Terrible characterization.

I don't think this was a case of male writers underestimating the horror of rape.

Paige didn't freak out because she thought Elizabeth was wrong to defend her with violence. She freaked out because she realized that her mother can kill someone without breaking a sweat, or even being particularly phased by it - and that this clearly wasn't the first time she'd done it.

When Paige asked if it was necessary to kill the guy, Elizabeth said yes, and Paige seemed to accept it. I think that's a reasonable question to ask any time you see someone get killed. It doesn't mean that Paige didn't think they were in a terrifying situation.

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, jjj said:

I think it is self-explanatory -- the mail robot operation was set in motion at the Roy Rogers in Franconia. 

Last week, there was one too many scenes of Elizabeth/Pastor Tim; I felt the same way this week with Elizabeth/Paige.  There were little bits in each scene that moved things along, but it felt very static when they were together.  Not at all like when Philip and William are together, which is always crackling with undertones. 

Who were those random people the camera focused upon:  in the park meeting with William, the African-American man who flicked a cigarette and touched his face as he walked toward the camera; and the woman in the street when Philip was picking up William later -- were both of those lookouts, or is the camera work just making us see agents where there are none?  I hope this means there is always someone doing advance work for Philip before he meets William.

The man who flicked the cigarette then gave a covert thumb up signal with his hand near his face, and though I didn't pay close attention to the woman's actions, I felt sure that both were lookouts. We've seen Hans fill that role before. I wondered just how many people like that The Centre had on their roster. 

So the janitor was bribed for $500 a week in a time where her rent or mortgage was likely no more than $250 a month. I had wondered what amount the KGB would have offered and how much it would need to be for a person to take that risk. 

[RedHawk]

I hope one day to see a blooper reel in which Keri, perfectly sincere in character as Elizabeth, answers Paige's "How many people have you killed?" with a puzzled and slightly non-comprehending "You mean, this year?"

Geez, Paige, calm down. It's not like your mom made you help her break the dead guy's bones and stuff his body in a suitcase. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[Ina123]

5 hours ago, La Tortuga said:

6 hours ago, gwhh said:

Elizabeth needs to tell Paige the facts. I killed a robbery/ rapist.   Who would have robbered us and than raped and killed us and probably not in that order. If I had the time. I would have broken there knees caps, yanked down there pants cut off there men bits and than stuff them in there mouths until they chocked and died on them. And than I really have gotten serious!   

 

This.

Two scumbags approach you and your mom at night on a bad side of town. Mom gets you out of a bad spot. All you can think about is the way your mom reacted. Umm...she just saved you from rape and possibly murder. <smh>

OK. I'm sure I heard either E or P say "We were mugged/Mom and Paige were mugged near the Reed Street Church Pantry," either in front of or to Henry. Do they never expect Henry to tell his friend Stan?

"Hey, mom and Paige were mugged."

What? Where? When? Are they OK?

Yeah. Outside the Reed Street Church Pantry.

Stan asks P and E about it. Says glad you're ok. Stan hears about a murder over near the Reed Street Church Pantry. 1+1=2. (Or, for Stan, maybe 1+1 =3.)

Or, of course, a cleanup crew took care of it.

 

Edited June 2, 2016 by Ina123
typo

[Ailianna]

7 hours ago, dramachick said:

I've had more than enough of Paige.  I just can't...   The fear of being raped and murdered is so ingrained in the psyche of women and girls in this society that I have a hard time believing she would see her mother in a negative light for saving their lives.  Realistically, she would want her mother to teach her that kind of self-defense!  This is one of those times that the predominance of male writers is evident.  I can accept all that other whiny angst coming from a pampered middle class teenage girl in the suburbs, but having a problem with her mother killing a murderous rapist before he killed them?  Naw, I don't buy it.  Terrible characterization.

Oleg, your heart is in the right place, but  I don't want to see you end up like Nina!

5 hours ago, La Tortuga said:

I was rolling my eyes at Paige for not being more grateful--or even conscious--that her mom had just saved her from being raped. But then I remembered that when the two muggers approached them asking for cigarettes, Paige was naïve enough to tell them where to find the nearest grocery store. One of them even chuckled at her for not realizing what was going on. This kid has no practical idea what the world is like outside her suburb, because that's the life her parents carved out for her. She also has no idea that Elizabeth has been raped before and has nightmares of the same happening to Paige. So, eyerolls notwithstanding, I can forgive Paige for being clueless about that part.

I don't think Paige was aware of the danger.  So from her POV, it was entirely an overreaction to kill a guy who asked for cigarettes and whose friend tried to touch Paige's face.  And the fact that she's gotten out of creeper situations without (as far as she knows) any violence doesn't help.  I'm sure she would have thought it could be talked through.  But what bothered me was that no one mentioned that Elizabeth had it under control until Paige spoke up, setting up flashing rockets and a huge neon VICTIM sign over herself.  I wish that it had been addressed that not only was there a real danger, and what the danger was, but that Paige's refusal to let mom deal with it made the situation infinitely worse.  Now of course we can't know for sure what would have happened if she kept her mouth shut (recurring problem for her), but I see this guy's death as being as much Paige's fault as anyone's (except mugger guys who started it all).

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

7 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I wonder if Oleg will admit his role in this to Tatiana. Or if he will just say nyet to Nairobi and let her go on her way. My guess is it's the latter.

If he admitted it wouldn't he be killed like Nina? He handed over an Illegal who may now give up other Illegals.

I don't think Oleg knew it was an Illegal he was turning them onto.  He knew they had a source, or deduced it, but there is no reason for him to think it was an Illegal as opposed to an actual American who had been turned in some fashion.  Keep in mind that he didn't have direct knowledge of any of it; this was his deduction from a variety of things, not least of which was Tatiana's off-hand comment about killing half the eastern seaboard.  I don't think it was his conversation with mom that was his tipping point; I think he was getting close, but it was that idea that hundreds of thousands or millions of people could die and all she cared about was her promotion.  It reminded him that it's too easy for many of the people in charge to believe that actual real people are hurt by their actions.  For all he knows, it's some guy being blackmailed who will be relieved to be found out, not an Illegal.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Ailianna

[Ellaria]

I'm tired of the Paige drama. I was skeptical about P&E's initial decision to tell her the truth about their work. It was bound to lead to other questions that they didn't want to answer or other "truths" that an average teenager could not handle. Honesty is paramount in any relationship but boundaries should exist, especially when the stakes are this high. (My parents were always honest with me about difficult family matters but they weren't KGB.) Once something is said, it can never be unsaid. And teenagers don't always have the judgement or the emotional maturity to process things in an appropriate way. 

Paige should understand the difference between Tim/Alice and the Beemans. And P&E should have better insight into their own daughter's inability to process this complicated information. I'm tired of the tense conversations in the kitchen between the three of them.

I wonder how Paige would have reacted after the "mugger kill" if she had not known that her mother was a spy.

Hurrah once again to Aderholt who actually seems to be doing work. 

Gabriel's phone call to Martha's parents was odd. How wouldn't a call of that nature raise suspicions? 

I'm a little worried about Oleg but at least he's done with Tatiana.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Ellaria Sand

[anonymiss]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think this was a case of male writers underestimating the horror of rape.

Paige didn't freak out because she thought Elizabeth was wrong to defend her with violence. She freaked out because she realized that her mother can kill someone without breaking a sweat, or even being particularly phased by it - and that this clearly wasn't the first time she'd done it.

When Paige asked if it was necessary to kill the guy, Elizabeth said yes, and Paige seemed to accept it. I think that's a reasonable question to ask any time you see someone get killed. It doesn't mean that Paige didn't think they were in a terrifying situation.

I would have agreed except she then had the following scene where she used the incident to justify her need to be briefed and give her moral condemnation before she permitted them to resume their missions. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by anonymiss

[RedHawk]

Regarding speculation that Stan will connect the robber's murder near the food pantry with Elizabeth and Paige, I don't see how FBI Agent Stan, who lives out in Falls Church, Virginia, would hear about some shady creep getting killed in a bad part of DC. No reason it would cross his desk. 

Ok, he might have read about it in a tiny paragraph in a small corner of The Washington Post local section, or have seen a 5-second report on the local news the day after, but if they do have him somehow hearing about this all-too-typical death and connecting it with Elizabeth in some suspicious manner, I'm calling total bullshit.

Of course, the writers could have it come up the next time Pastor Tim, Alice, and Stan (and Matthew!) sit down for family dinner at the Jennings' table. That's gonna be a weekly thing, right?

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[mwell345]

Quote

Tonight's episode had a whole lot of unbelievable events. I was very disappointed. Just my opinion, but parts of this episode were real crap.

You're not alone. I was bored, and surprised that I was bored since it's the last episode before the finale.  I expected more.  Too much time on Paige.  Maybe there's a payoff down the road but we sure are spending alot of time on her.

[Paloma]

First-time poster here, and I'm hoping someone can answer a question about Matthew (sorry if it's been addressed in previous episode threads). I was under the impression from the first few times he was in the show that he is a couple of years older than Paige--maybe 18 (though he looks like he could be older). So it's unclear why he is even able to spend so much time at Stan's during the school year. Shouldn't he be in college? Or if still in high school, do his parents live close enough together that he can split time between them and still go to the same school?

[AliShibaz]

I have a suggestion for Phillip and Elizabeth. If Paige persists in demanding to know the details of their work, perhaps they should just tell her they are not permitted to divulge that info to anyone who is not also an agent. However, if she is interested, she can go to Russia and they will give her the necessary training to become an agent. She can learn to speak, read and write Russian and she will learn everything she needs to know in order to become an agent.

When she returns, they can tell her everything she wants to know. With any luck, that may shut her up for once and for all. I'd be very happy no matter what she chooses. If only she would stop whining and questioning her parents.

I must say that this episode was a real downer for me. I found it to be the most disappointing episode I've ever seen.

Edited June 2, 2016 by AliShibaz

[RedHawk]

20 minutes ago, Paloma said:

First-time poster here, and I'm hoping someone can answer a question about Matthew (sorry if it's been addressed in previous episode threads). I was under the impression from the first few times he was in the show that he is a couple of years older than Paige--maybe 18 (though he looks like he could be older). So it's unclear why he is even able to spend so much time at Stan's during the school year. Shouldn't he be in college? Or if still in high school, do his parents live close enough together that he can split time between them and still go to the same school?

Those are good questions and I feel like the show is fudging a bit in that area. Paige is now 16 or close to it, so I guess we're to think Matthew is a newly turned18-year-old high school senior who just doesn't talk about where he's applied to college and that sort of thing. The show can basically get away with that. 

Matthew and his mom are still supposedly living with Arthur, and in previous episodes their home did seem quite far from Falls Church. (I thought it was in Maryland, even near the Chesapeake Bay.) So it would be a big stretch to think that Matthew gets up and drives that far to school every day. It's harder to buy into that but I close my eyes and go with it just like I do when the show said it was March and all the trees were full of autumn leaves. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, izabella said:

I have to keep reminding myself that it really sucks to be Paige right now, but her incessant demand for truths she cannot handle is getting on my nerves. 

I was okay with Paige all through the episode-until that final scene. I thought her initial reactions were perfectly in character and made total sense. As others have pointed out, I don't think she fully processed the level of danger they were in, and she wasn't thinking about what might have happened to them, because she was too caught up in this revelation that her mother is capable of killing someone that easily. I actually thought she was being pretty chill for most of the episode (for Paige).

And then we got to that final scene, and she started demanding information again, and I wanted to tear my hair out. She clearly can't handle it and doesn't really want to know. As soon as they told her, she looked upset and like she wished they hadn't. So why does she keep insisting on knowing more? Because she's a temperamental teenager who can't get a handle on her feelings. Perfectly good characterization, but infuriating to watch. 

[blixie]

Quote

How could she have children without, at some point, giving a lot of thought to what would happen to them and what she would have to tell them and what she would be able to tell them? 

I actually don't think she thought about it that much, beyond keeping them out of it for as long as they could, but also I tend to think of this show as primarily the story of Elizabeth's journey, from a loyal, dedicated soldier who prioritized her ideals, her job, and her country ahead of her primarily "fake" family cover to someone who is no longer just pretending to be an American,I think this season has been brilliant at bringing that into focus for her. When the show started she wasn't in love with Phillip, and her kids were just assignments, she was told to have kids so she did, I think she engaged in  decent amount of disassociation from her family as matter of self preservation because at root she has so little actual control over her life, the Center (and her enemies) make all the decisions about where her life will go and how it will end, and certainly it can dictate to her about the kids. Which she was fine with because she's true believer in her country and Communism. But when she realized she was in love with Phillip and Gregory died, her whole approach to her job changed, it made it so much more difficult. And we see that getting amped up this seasons her genuine affection for Young Hee, attending EST, reaching out to Pastor Tim, her jealousy/resentment of Martha, her personal attachments and her family are now way more important than her Communism certainly and at least as important as her loyalty to her country.

I think it's kind of hilarious that Elizabeth is the MOST emotional and illogical she's ever been and yet Paige is still seeing her like a Vulcan. 

Quote

I was under the impression from the first few times he was in the show that he is a couple of years older than Paige--maybe 18 (

He is but Paige is only 15, that is why she doesn't have her license, so Matthew would be 17, so she's a Sophomore and he's a Senior in High School, and he has his own car so he drives himself to school, and back and forth between his parents homes. It's hard to remember but four seasons has really only taken place over maybe two and half years (I think it was 1981 when they started .

 

Quote

Honestly, I don't think Paige is acting unrealistically at all. 

She is an American teenager growing up in 1980's DC, and she is patently NOT a moron, the idea that she is some sheltered princess who needs to be threatened by a rape mugging before she really understands to be on alert for a rape mugging is absolutely unrealistic. Her utter inability at any point to be GRATEFUL for what her mother did, DESPITE her initial shock was absurd, and she has known about her parents job in show time for almost what 8 months...a year, she's known about her mother probably being a killer, and absolutely being a SOLDIER, it is not new information. Having said that it's not so much unrealistic as it is fucking annoying. I was more a Kimmie than a Paige, so get on the bus already gurl.

[anonymiss]

4 minutes ago, blixie said:

I actually don't think she thought about it that much, beyond keeping them out of it for as long as they could, but also I tend to think of this show as primarily the story of Elizabeth's journey, from a loyal, dedicated soldier who prioritized her ideals, her job, and her country ahead of her primarily "fake" family cover to someone who is no longer just pretending to be an American,I think this season has been brilliant at bringing that into focus for her. When the show started she wasn't in love with Phillip, and her kids were just assignments, she was told to have kids so she did, I think she engaged in  decent amount of disassociation from her family as matter of self preservation because at root she has so little actual control over her life, the Center (and her enemies) make all the decisions about where her life will go and how it will end, and certainly it can dictate to her about the kids. Which she was fine with because she's true believer in her country and Communism. But when she realized she was in love with Phillip and Gregory died, her whole approach to her job changed, it made it so much more difficult. And we see that getting amped up this seasons her genuine affection for Young Hee, attending EST, reaching out to Pastor Tim, her jealousy/resentment of Martha, her personal attachments and her family are now way more important than her Communism certainly and at least as important as her loyalty to her country.

I think it's kind of hilarious that Elizabeth is the MOST emotional and illogical she's ever been and yet Paige is still seeing her like a Vulcan. 

He is but Paige is only 15, that is why she doesn't have her license, so Matthew would be 17, so she's a Sophomore and he's a Senior in High School, and he has his own car so he drives himself to school, and back and forth between his parents homes. It's hard to remember but four seasons has really only taken place over maybe two and half years (I think it was 1981 when they started .

 

She is an American teenager growing up in 1980's DC, and she is patently NOT a moron, the idea that she is some sheltered princess who needs to be threatened by a rape mugging before she really understands to be on alert for a rape mugging is absolutely unrealistic. Her utter inability at any point to be GRATEFUL for what her mother did, DESPITE her initial shock was absurd, and she has known about her parents job in show time for almost what 8 months...a year, she's known about her mother probably being a killer, and absolutely being a SOLDIER, it is not new information. Having said that it's not so much unrealistic as it is fucking annoying. I was more a Kimmie than a Paige, so get on the bus already gurl.

Especially considering she was almost raped/in danger before for hitch-hiking until Henry came to the rescue.

[Chaos Theory]

I am not sure why people don't like Paige.  She acts exactly like any normal teenager who witnessed her parent kill a guy.  I am not sure if everyone expects high fives and pizza.  Paige reacted like anyone would.   "Maybe we should call the cops.  No?   Oh yeah right. "  I think her biggest problem was that her mother didn't react the way a normal person would or the way Paige thought a normal person should,  Killing someone isn't something you just walk off.

I think that's the thing.  She doesn't understand the rules because no one has explained them to her.   She tried to be helpful with the Mathew thing and her Parents told her not to.   She doesn't understand the difference between spying on Pastor Tim and on Mathew.   I think that is why I find Paige so fascinating and not annoying,

She is actually getting good at this but doesn't understand the rules.  

[teddysmom]

Spy or not, when you're a parent and someone threatens your children, your instinct to protect can make you do things you never thought yourself capable of doing.  Luckily for Miss Whiny Pants her mother is a trained assassin.  I lost it when she asked "did you have to kill him?"  OMG. No Paige maybe I should have invited him over for dinner and rehabilitated him.  STFU. 

I don't know if Paige was "reporting" what Matthew told her about Martha, as in she knows anything that is relative to Stan is something her parents need to know, or just her wanting to know just how many of you guys are there here in America. 

[benteen]

That's right, the hitch-hiker incident.  I was thinking about that last night.  That should have left Paige more aware of the danger of strangers.  She WAS in a bad situation years ago that she only got out of because of Henry's quick thinking.  The naïve card doesn't work there. 

Philip and Elizabeth really should have agreed on a strategy to answer Paige's question.  They've had almost a year to figure out one and there's no excuse for them not to have.

Quote

Keri Russell should start a product line of loose coats and throw pillows; she is spending so much time behind them

Perhaps her own grocery line too.  She had a whole tableful in front of her for that last scene.

Edited June 2, 2016 by benteen

[RedHawk]

^ Speaking of Vulcan, when Henry was sitting at the computer playing a game with Matthew, his haircut made it seem like he had a Spock ear! I giggled.

Paige is not growing up IN the District. I know people who grew up in the "nice" inner DC suburbs like Falls Church, and would have been the same age as Paige, and it's actually quite believable that she IS that sheltered and unaware of potential danger. She likely only goes into the District for museum outings during the day, with friends or on a school outing. She goes to the food pantry in the evening with a group in the church van.

Falls Church is pleasant and safe, and she would rarely go anywhere else where she'd feel threatened or need to be "watchful". She was freaked out when Elizabeth took her to Southeast DC (or was that Baltimore, where Gregory lived?). Paige has had almost no experience with bad neighborhoods or even unsafe situations, thus little need to develop street smarts.

 

That said, now that her eyes have been opened, I wish she would realize that her kick-ass mom totally saved her. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[Paloma]

2 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Spy or not, when you're a parent and someone threatens your children, your instinct to protect can make you do things you never thought yourself capable of doing.  Luckily for Miss Whiny Pants her mother is a trained assassin.  I lost it when she asked "did you have to kill him?"  OMG. No Paige maybe I should have invited him over for dinner and rehabilitated him.  STFU. 

I don't know if Paige was "reporting" what Matthew told her about Martha, as in she knows anything that is relative to Stan is something her parents need to know, or just her wanting to know just how many of you guys are there here in America. 

I thought that Elizabeth was justified in killing the guy to protect Paige, and that any parent would do the same if he or she had the training, but my husband strongly disagreed--he thought that she could have and should have just disarmed him so she and Paige could get away (since the other guy had already run away). Not sure if our differing views have anything to do with gender and women's greater fear of rape.

[Bannon]

32 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I was okay with Paige all through the episode-until that final scene. I thought her initial reactions were perfectly in character and made total sense. As others have pointed out, I don't think she fully processed the level of danger they were in, and she wasn't thinking about what might have happened to them, because she was too caught up in this revelation that her mother is capable of killing someone that easily. I actually thought she was being pretty chill for most of the episode (for Paige).

And then we got to that final scene, and she started demanding information again, and I wanted to tear my hair out. She clearly can't handle it and doesn't really want to know. As soon as they told her, she looked upset and like she wished they hadn't. So why does she keep insisting on knowing more? Because she's a temperamental teenager who can't get a handle on her feelings. Perfectly good characterization, but infuriating to watch. 

I really don'tunderstand this sentiment. It would be perfectly reasonable for Paige to go to her parents, and say, "Gee, Mom, gosh, Dad, in about two years I'm going to be a good prospect for life in prison without parole, due to the fact that you have involved me in your criminal conspiracy. Guess what? I don't have anything close to you ideological devotion to seeing this criminal conspiracy succeed, and it would be really dumb of you two to expect me to have that devotion. Why did you involve me in your criminal conspiracy? Because I was asking a lot of questions with regard to why my parents lie to me all the time? Guess what again, Mom and Dad? That's a perfectly reasonable qustion for a child to ask of parents. Why have you two been such A-holes as to involve me in criminal conspiracy which could very well lead to me spending decades in solitary confinement? Because of your "cause"? Guess what again? I don't give a flying f*uck about your "cause". I just want a chance to choose my own path in life, not tied to the family business which might lead to my life being over before I see my 20th birthday. Hey, Mom, Hey, Dad? Go f*ck yourself and your "cause". Whattaya gonna do now? Kill me, or have somebody else do so? Drug me and smuggle me to the Soviet Union? Thanks, Ma, Thanks Pa!"

Paige in full rebellion is the only way to save this deteriorating story arc.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Bannon
spelling

[Chaos Theory]

It's not that I don't think Elizabeth's reaction was justified.  I am saying that Paige's reaction to seeing it was just as justified.  Watching your mother kill someone is not something you can just walk off and to see her do it like it was nothing....  My point is that well...it's not logical its emotional and her emotional reaction is justified.

[teddysmom]

Quote

I thought that Elizabeth was justified in killing the guy to protect Paige, and that any parent would do the same if he or she had the training, but my husband strongly disagreed--he thought that she could have and should have just disarmed him so she and Paige could get away (since the other guy had already run away). Not sure if our differing views have anything to do with gender and women's greater fear of rape.

Good point re our gender.  I wonder if her instincts from her training just kicked in as far as taking out anyone who was a threat. If too much commotion was made, police could have happened to drive by, and that would have been very bad.  

I'm not married nor do I have children so I can't say how men would react if their children were in danger.  I know how I am about my pets, and if anyone threatened them , I don't know that I'd kill someone but I would definitely put myself in front of them to protect them from danger. 

 A long time ago my parents and I were eating dinner at a family friend's restaurant/bar. We walked out in the parking lot and some guy who had fallen asleep in his truck (it was still early in the evening) must have somehow disengaged the emergency brake or something, and his truck rolled into the back of my car. Minimal damage. But my mother just went off on this guy.   I think my father would have done something but my mom's first instinct was to just go after someone who did something to her child. I think her fear was, what if it had happened while I was in the car.  I don't remember completely what happened any more but what sticks in my mind was my mom being so protective of me. 

[RedHawk]

31 minutes ago, anonymiss said:

Especially considering she was almost raped/in danger before for hitch-hiking until Henry came to the rescue.

I think that Paige never quite registered how much danger they might have been in there.

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[shura]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really don'tunderstand this sentiment. It would be perfectly reasonable for Paige to go to her parents, and say, "Gee, Mom, gosh, Dad, in about two years I'm going to be a good prospect for life in prison without parole, due to the fact that you have involved me in your criminal conspiracy. Guess what? I don't have anything close to you ideological devotion to seeing this criminal conspiracy succeed, and it would be really dumb of you two to expect me to have that devotion. Why did you involve me in your criminal conspiracy? Because I was asking a lot of questions with regard to why my parents lie to me all the time? Guess what again, Mom and Dad? That's a perfectly reasonable qustion for a child to ask of parents. Why have you two been such A-holes as to involve me in criminal conspiracy which could very well lead to me spending decades in solitary confinement? Because of your "cause"? Guess what again? I don't give a flying f*uck about your "cause". I just want a chance to choose my own path in life, not tied to the family business which might lead to my life being over before I see my 20th birthday. Hey, Mom, Hey, Dad? Go f*ck yourself and your "cause". Whattaya gonna do now? Kill me, or have somebody else do so? Drug me and smuggle me to the Soviet Union? Thanks, Ma, Thanks Pa!"

Paige in full rebellion is the only way to save this deteriorating story arc.

I don't think they have ever told Paige they want her to be in the family business or that they expect her to have ideological devotion to the cause of any kind. In fact, they specifically told her they don't want her to do anything at all except spying on the Tims, and that's just about keeping the family from being destroyed. 

[Peanutbuttercup]

I think Henry knows more than we've seen, or he's on the verge of knowing more. He is observing things quietly but he is observing them. And it would not surprise me if the tinkering with the computer and the looking around at electrical/communications equipment in the garage didn't lead to more stuff for him to discover.

[RedHawk]

I hope we get more focus on Henry next season. The writers and showrunners just have to trust that we can deal with him being a foot and a half taller than the rest of his family. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

I liked that Paige did speak up and say how much she wanted to get away from Tim and Alice but her parents were making her "work" them. Very true that they need to sit her down and explain clearly what they expect from her now, and what they will and WON'T tell her.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, shura said:

I don't think they have ever told Paige they want her to be in the family business or that they expect her to have ideological devotion to the cause of any kind. In fact, they specifically told her they don't want her to do anything at all except spying on the Tims, and that's just about keeping the family from being destroyed. 

Yes, and by doing so, Paige is now implicated in a criminal conspiracy which could result in her spending decades in solitary confinement. Frankly, the moment E & P decided to tell her about their true identities (and let us not forget that the KGB wanted Paige to be recruited), Paige in large measure was guaranteed to be so threatened. What is threatening the family is E & P's ideological devotion. E & P think it is it worth it. There is no reasonable expectation for others to think so as well. It is entirely reasonable and ethical for Paige to inform them that she wants no part of it.

[shura]

4 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I think that Paige never quite registered how much danger they might have been in there.

Reason number 7019 she is not nearly sharp enough to be a spy while her brother is. Henry didn't seem to have any trouble sensing they were in danger there, so much danger, in fact, that he felt justified to almost do to the creep what Elizabeth did to Lisa.

6 hours ago, jjj said:

I really thought the "hook the computer up to the television" was going to have a payoff -- either Henry would find secrets in the garage, or Russian/Cyrillic language/alphabet would start to display on the screen.

When he asked if she'd seen the cable box (or what was it), I thought Elizabeth was going to casually reply "You know my secret hiding place in the garage, behind the dryer? Go check there." She knows that he knows! And I am starting to think now that Henry was not being clueless when he invited Stan to dinner last week - he was just trolling his parents.

"Paige, have you slept at all?" - "No, not really."  Maybe it's your wallpaper...

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I hope we get more focus on Henry next season. The writers and showrumners just have to trust that we can deal with him being a foot and a half taller than the rest of his family. 

As long as they don't decide to write him as unusually tall moron, like about half the other characters in the show. The moron part, not the tall part. 

[teddysmom]

Quote

The writers and showrunners just have to trust that we can deal with him being a foot and a half taller than the rest of his family. 

I just finished rewatching the first two seasons, and seeing him on last night's episode was almost a shock. He's even got a little tween mustache. 

I wonder if at some point the writers will be able to use a story line to make Philip and Elizabeth realize that what they're working for is somewhat of a lie. They believe Mother Russia is this great place that wants equality for everyone, but they've been in the US for 20 years and don't see that Russia is really a fucked up mess. They steal our technology and then don't know how to use it, the citizens suffer while the leaders take everything.  They're fighting to keep people like Putin in power. 

[CarpeDiem54]

1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

I have a suggestion for Phillip and Elizabeth. If Paige persists in demanding to know the details of their work, perhaps they should just tell her they are not permitted to divulge that info to anyone who is not also an agent. However, if she is interested, she can go to Russia and get training for a few years. They will teach her to speak and read and write Russian and teach her how to be an agent.

Then, when she returns, they can tell her all the details she wants to know. With any luck, that may either shut her up for once and for all or maybe she will go to Russia. I'd be very happy in either case. Last night's episode was a real downer for me. I must say I found it to be the most disappointing episode I've ever seen.

I'd love for them to send Paige to "boarding school" in Russia and get her off my screen.  I've never liked that brat and my dislike of her is getting more intense with every episode.

7 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I think that Paige never quite registered how much danger they might have been in there.

Which just proves how stupid she is.

I grew up in a small rural town and knew what danger was.  This was a safe, quiet town - nothing much happened there.  Once my Mom and I had gone somewhere (I think she took me to the park to go swimming) and some creepy guy approached us.  My spidey sense went off immediately that this was a bad guy.  My Mom reached in the car and retrieved the "equalizer" my Dad had put in there.  It was about an 18" length of pipe filled with cement.  She managed to scare the guy off by waving it at him.  I have no doubt she would have beat the crap out of him if necessary.  I thought she was awesome.  I was about 12 at the time.

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, anonymiss said:

I would have agreed except she then had the following scene where she used the incident to justify her need to be briefed and give her moral condemnation before she permitted them to resume their missions. 

I took Paige's comment to mean, "Stop treating me like a kid. You don't get to shut me out after killing someone in front of me." I didn't take it as Paige morally condemning Elizabeth for the killing itself.

That's not to say I agree with Paige. If she doesn't want to be treated like a kid, she should stop acting like her parents' reluctance to share classified information with her is the equivalent of not letting her go to prom.

[RedHawk]

10 minutes ago, shura said:

"Paige, have you slept at all?" - "No, not really."  Maybe it's your wallpaper...

ROFL! You know Oscar Wilde's reported last words, "Either that wallpaper goes, or I do."? I now know what that offensive wallpaper must have looked like. 

No one I knew in the '80s would have had that wallpaper in their bedroom, especially not a teenager. I guess Elizabeth skipped interior decorating classes at spy school. 

Actually, I have thought that the ONLY people I knew in 1983 who would have used that wallpaper in a bedroom would have been my Russian teacher and his wife.

[SunnyBeBe]

I was rather disappointed with last night's episode.  Rarely do I roll my eyes during this show, but, last night I did every time that Paige was on the screen.  I'm so done with her character.  PLEASE. Her parent's treatment of that situation has caused me to lose my opinion of them.  

For one thing, Paige is incorrect when she says her mom was calm after killing the man who attacked them.  Her mom's voice was panicked and she told Paige to run, run!  So, what was she talking about?  Elizabeth was very upset.  I'll repeat it again. Paige has zero survival skills. She needs to attend some kind of program for that.

Can someone clear this up for me?  After P & E talked to Paige at the house, Philip left the house and later he returned.  It seemed that he went to take care or ensure that the body of the man E killed was disposed of.  Is that right?

[Bannon]

I know this won't be a popuar sentiment on this board, but I think a good way to end this show would be for Paige to sell out her parents for cold, hard, cash, and then send them, to their prison cells, pictures from her fabulous condominium at The Watergate.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Bannon
repetition

[SunnyBeBe]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I know this won't be a popuar sentiment on this board, but I think a good way to end this show would be for Paige to sell out her parents for cold, hard, cash, and then send them, to their prison cells, pictures from her fabulous condominium at The Watergate.

It seems like they want to help her set themselves up.  When it comes to her, they have lost their minds. It's unfortunate. Perhaps, the plot will turn her around and we will see her REALLY turn into the spy that has their backs, but it wouldn't make sense, from what we have seen from her.

I hesitate to be critical of the writing on this show, because it's been so incredible, but I wonder if this Paige storyline seemed like a good idea, when they went there and then they got trapped.  It's just something that doesn't seem to work for me.  I've noticed that with some shows, there is a temptation to go somewhere with a storyline, but the real implications are not considered.  

Edited June 2, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[teddysmom]

Quote

 

"Paige, have you slept at all?" - "No, not really."  Maybe it's your wallpaper...

ROFL! You know Oscar Wilde's reported last words, "Either that wallpaper goes, or I do."? I now know what that offensive wallpaper must have looked like. 

No one I knew in the '80s would have had that wallpaper in their bedroom, especially not a teenager. I guess Elizabeth skipped interior decorating classes at spy school. 

Actually, I have thought that the ONLY people I knew in 1983 who would have used that wallpaper in a bedroom would have been my Russian teacher and his wife.

 

OMG this has been driving me crazy forever. This is wallpaper in a restroom of a disco, or Austin Powers'  sex den.  I do not recall anyone having wall paper like this in a bedroom esp. a teenage girl. 

I did notice they changed the mail boxes in front of the Jennings' house. It has a number on it instead of A-B-C. But I still don't get the layout of that structure. They have to live in some maintenance free home subdivision. Their home has a common wall with another.  

Quote

Can someone clear this up for me?  After P & E talked to Paige at the house, Philip left the house and later he returned.  It seemed that he went to take care or ensure that the body of the man E killed was disposed of.  Is that right?

I thought that was what he was going to do, but he went to meet William.  If he had gone to get rid of the body, he might have been seen by someone. I'm sure they're hoping the police chalk it up to a bad guy getting killed by another bad guy. 

[RedHawk]

48 minutes ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

I'd love for them to send Paige to "boarding school" in Russia and get her off my screen.  I've never liked that brat and my dislike of her is getting more intense with every episode.

Which just proves how stupid she is.

I grew up in a small rural town and knew what danger was.  This was a safe, quiet town - nothing much happened there.  Once my Mom and I had gone somewhere (I think she took me to the park to go swimming) and some creepy guy approached us.  My spidey sense went off immediately that this was a bad guy.  My Mom reached in the car and retrieved the "equalizer" my Dad had put in there.  It was about an 18" length of pipe filled with cement.  She managed to scare the guy off by waving it at him.  I have no doubt she would have beat the crap out of him if necessary.  I thought she was awesome.  I was about 12 at the time.

I hear where you're coming from and grew up in a similar place but still knew to sense danger and how to protect myself. Went out at night to punk clubs in DC from 1982 onward with senses on alert. However, I learned to my amazement that so many people are not at all tuned in, or ignore their instincts, etc. Time after time I've met people who just do not GET how to assess a situation and protect themselves. Many refuse to imagine that something bad might ever happen. 

It's not so much that Paige is "stupid"; she is stunningly naive and still living in an innocent little bubble (kind of like Pastor Tim was before he got lost in Ethiopia). It's time Elizabeth and Philip introduce her to the real world and instill some alertness in her. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[Shriekingeel]

Quote

...how terrible that scene was when Elizabeth killed that very brave woman

That's when I really started to hate Elizabeth. At this point I want to see her live at least long enough to see the Lenin statues getting torn down in Eastern Europe.