S04.E12: A Roy Rogers in Franconia

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

Paige is up to her neck in it, and is exposed to spending the rest of her life in solitary.

Why the focus on this idea of solitary as the natural conclusion to Paige's situation? There are children of Illegals who are not in solitary or in prison and never have been. Pastor Tim is willingly keeping quiet about it and Paige is simply going to his church like she always did, but more so. 

Of course the parents have put her into a situation where she's in danger probably mostly of being deported than being put in prison. There's no way to get around that they've tied their fates to hers when she never agreed to be a spy. They're not defecting to protect her from that because they're doing this for a reason connected to their own loyalty and perceived duty to their country, just like any parent who do things in their own life motivated by things other than their children's happiness. They think this stuff is important. That's especially understandable coming from these two people whose happiness was considered far less than Paige's has been.

Or sometimes they are motivated by their children, but not in the sense of prioritizing keeping their innocence. Which is why, when Paige demanded to know the truth, they did not make up a lie. Which Paige appreciates and is probably one of the reasons she's not in full rebellion. As she said flat-out to Pastor Tim, they told her the truth because she asked for it even though that was maybe a mistake. They're making themselves vulnerable to each other because that's the price of intimacy they all want. 

[izabella]

6 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

I've been fairly vocal in my criticism of the Paige character. But after thinking it over, I now see most of the problem (or most of the fault) rests with her parents.

When Paige was pushing and pushing and pushing for answers near the end of this episode, it seems to me that it would have been pretty easy for P&E to lay down the law and tell her, "We're not lying to you. But that doesn't mean we have to answer all your questions. Don't you understand that it's safer for you you not to know certain things?

All they had to do was tell Paige, "Yeah, you know how Stan can't tell Matthew all about his work assignments and what stakeout he is on, and where and why (and you know that because you JUST asked Matthew and he JUST told you he doesn't know much), we can't share confidential information about our assignments either. "

The DC area is bursting at the seams with people who have security clearances of one level or another, and all their kids know not to expect answers about their parents' jobs.  I don't get why P&E think they need to tell Paige the details when she asks. 

[gwhh]

I think one day they will go over to Gabriel's and find him did on the floor (natural causes).

I am sure P&E could go to the hospital for normal problems.  Not for gunshot wounds, unusually diseases, and such.  That one time Elizabeth got beat up so bad Phillip faked that care accident so they could have a cover story and get her proper medical treatment.  That part was so cool.  He unbuckled her belt and drove into a telephone pole without a word between either of them.  Just got to continue the mission!   

I think Henry going to be the one who blows the whole operation.  Either on purpose or by accident! 

 

 

Did anyone notice that Agent Dennis Aderholt when in the vault at FBI HQ.  They were throwing around ideas about what to do when they catch the KGB agent who picks up the recording at the dead drop. 

He casually said "shoot them."  And every in the room froze! 

Was that meant as a BAD joke or was he referring to the last time they caught a KGB agent and Stan killed him.  I would think that information would be need to know ONLY and NO one would talk about it for any reason!  That work was off the books and OK by the president on down with no paper trail!  I doubt anyone told him.  Was he involved in that operation? I cant remember if he was. 

Edited June 3, 2016 by gwhh

[benteen]

Quote

Exactly. For as good as spies as they are  and with their ability to lie at their job, P and E were horrible at lying to their daughter.

I agree with this.  It's made worse by the fact that they've had nearly a year to deal with this and come up with a plan on how to deal with her when she gets like that and the two of them are floundering more than ever.

[Clanstarling]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 6:24 AM, RedHawk said:

Paige is not growing up IN the District. I know people who grew up in the "nice" inner DC suburbs like Falls Church, and would have been the same age as Paige, and it's actually quite believable that she IS that sheltered and unaware of potential danger. She likely only goes into the District for museum outings during the day, with friends or on a school outing. She goes to the food pantry in the evening with a group in the church van.

Falls Church is pleasant and safe, and she would rarely go anywhere else where she'd feel threatened or need to be "watchful". She was freaked out when Elizabeth took her to Southeast DC (or was that Baltimore, where Gregory lived?). Paige has had almost no experience with bad neighborhoods or even unsafe situations, thus little need to develop street smarts.

I have trouble with Paige, mostly because it is hard for me to relate to the depth of her naiveté. I grew up in mostly suburban settings, but when approached - in the 3rd grade - I knew better to accept a ride from a guy who offered to give me a ride to school when it was pouring rain. I didn't turn him down because my parents had warned about it (those were in the more innocent days of the early 60's and we had not had that talk), but because my 8 year old self assessed the situation - the school was fully in sight - just a block or two away - and decided it was shady. I had a much more serious attempt when I was Paige's age, but alarm bells went on quickly enough for me to escape. So it makes her very frustrating to me. Because I'm more Elizabeth than Paige, I guess.

I try to cut her some slack on the situation she's in, but she's basically emotionally blackmailing her parents, and I just can't with that. No child has the right to know the ins and outs of their parents' job, whatever it is. Truth does not equal every operative detail. P&E should have put a firm stop to that long ago.

Edited June 3, 2016 by clanstarling

[mattie0808]

In a way, I think the way they're handling Paige is part of Phillip coming close to the end of his rope with his work, and with starting to so highly value honesty (through EST or whatever), almost too much for the job he does. He reached a point with Martha where he simply could not and would not lie to her at all any more, even when it was almost certainly in everyone's best interest that he do so. If he can show Martha his face and tell her his actual Russian name and that he's KGB when she asks, I don't think he's much in a frame of mind of feeling he can't be similarly honest with his own daughter when she knows so much already. He was also pretty open with...was his name Yousef ("I feel like shit all the time")? And the Kimmie operation is clearly giving him a lot of second thoughts and feelings about how he deals with Paige. Yes, saving Martha and the long "vacation" have cooled the temperature down a bit in terms of Phillip freaking out, but I feel like he's just crossed a line in his head (or maybe his heart, or both) where keeping things from Paige is no longer the instinctive, at-all-costs priority.

Also, now that Paige has seen Elizabeth go 100% assassin, that ups the overall trust factor too and reduces the need to lie about certain aspects of things. And maybe accelerates how they'll (I assume) eventually tell her more fully about their work, either because the Center will possibly start making demands about Paige again soon, or just so she's better informed and can be more careful or whatever.

I don't know...it's seems kind of human to me that they're not dealing with this 100% hard core as either spies or parents, and haven't figured out what kind of mix between the two they want to land on. Their strong reaction to Paige reporting back on Matthew and suggesting that she work him says that to me. I've kept secrets for a long time (and nothing like what P/E have, lol), and once it's out, it's sometimes hard not to naturally let your guard down and relax a bit about it. It's like, right before it comes out, you can't even CONCEIVE of telling, talking about it casually, etc., but once you start and you let the secret go (and, importantly, you're able to manage the fallout, whether it's better or worse than you feared), it changes the whole nature of things. Now, P/E obviously still have to be careful in a lot of different ways, and they need to keep Paige on-side even with the risks that might entail -- and who knows what they'll do with Henry -- but the way they're trying to feel this out for themselves and their daughter isn't too surprising to me.

Edited June 3, 2016 by mattie0808

[terracool]

I'm struck by how my best program on TV can also somehow be my worst program at the same time, and the difference is Paige Paige Paige.  I am increasingly disgusted by the whole story line and, at the same time, increasingly bored with it.  While I still mentally think of the show in terms of my favorite show on TV, I find that when I actually watch, it is becoming an uninteresting slog because way too much time is spent on Whiny Paige.  It'll be easy to finish out the season because there's only one episode left, but if next season starts out heading up Whiny Paige Road again, I know I'll lose interest quickly.

While shows like this require some suspension of disbelief for the main storyline, we all expect the background details to ring true.  P&E's demurral to Paige's demands are so discordantly unlikely and unreal that it's hard to keep watching.  Example is them telling her to please, pretty please understand that she doesn't HAVE to work Matthew for them, and that she should please not worry about them.  What would ring more true to many would be for them to tell her that under absolutely no circumstances whatsoever is she to continue her bs amateur-hour questioning Matthew and then start limiting her time with him.  

But the problem isn't "with Paige" or "with the parents".  The problem is with the writers who somehow think that this storyline and character are interesting (or, given that it could have been interesting, is well-executed), because it's not.   They need to broom this nonsense next season.

[SeanC]

37 minutes ago, clanstarling said:

I try to cut her some slack on the situation she's in, but she's basically emotionally blackmailing her parents, and I just can't with that. No child has the right to know the ins and outs of their parents' job, whatever it is. Truth does not equal every operative detail. P&E should have put a firm stop to that long ago.

Paige has been told that her entire life is a lie.  It's really dubious to suggest her desire to understand what her parents do is in any way comparable to regular kids wanting to know what their parents do for a living.

[Clanstarling]

11 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Paige has been told that her entire life is a lie.  It's really dubious to suggest her desire to understand what her parents do is in any way comparable to regular kids wanting to know what their parents do for a living.

I do have sympathy for her in the fact that she's learned (at her own insistence) that her life is a lie. She knows what her parents do for a living - and her desire is totally understandable - just because she desires it doesn't mean she deserves to know or should be given the details.

Asking about her parents lives, families, and other things, I have no problem with. Getting truthful, but general information, I don't really mind either. However, when it comes to demanding operational details, I draw the line. I don't think it's unfair to compare that particular issue (demanding details) to "regular" American children, in particular those with parents whose jobs are top secret. There are plenty of those, and some who grow up not knowing their parents are spies, agents, etc., as has been mentioned previously in the forum.

I've raised two emotional teenage girls of my own, and even so I'm less able to cut her slack (and P&E for that matter) in the issue of demanding and providing operational details, than I am for the angst of finding out life isn't what you thought it was. We all come to the table with different experiences and attitudes. Which is what makes the forums a fun place to be. 

[SunnyBeBe]

All the disgust with the Paige character is reminding me of the dislike for the character of Dana Brody on Homeland 9Showtime). What is it with teen girls on espionage type shows?

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, gwhh said:

That one time Elizabeth got beat up so bad Phillip faked that care accident so they could have a cover story and get her proper medical treatment.  That part was so cool.  He unbuckled her belt and drove into a telephone pole without a word between either of them.  Just got to continue the mission!   

No, that was when they were both beaten up by the Centre and they had the car accident to cover up their injuries. Neither went to the hospital and both were injured.

2 hours ago, izabella said:

The DC area is bursting at the seams with people who have security clearances of one level or another, and all their kids know not to expect answers about their parents' jobs.  I don't get why P&E think they need to tell Paige the details when she asks. 

This is what I don't get either. Security clearance is not a hard concept for a teenager to understand. The main other kid Paige talks to deals with it with his father (and even there not as much as he should). They're not lying to her to say that classified information isn't something they can just pass along to their kid. Not only would it be dangerous to the country, it's dangerous for her. I get that she's incredibly important to them, but it's like they're always reinforcing her own perspective that her feelings are the most important thing at all times. I think that's why many people were so satisfied when Elizabeth laid down the basic reality about Pastor Tim.

1 hour ago, mattie0808 said:

In a way, I think the way they're handling Paige is part of Phillip coming close to the end of his rope with his work, and with starting to so highly value honesty (through EST or whatever), almost too much for the job he does.

But this isn't even a case of honesty, because they don't have to lie. It's just knowing that the KGB is not going to run all its operations past Paige Jennings, youth group member. I totally get their opening up to her more about themselves, but telling her they're going out to get part of a weapon to use if their country's attacked? 

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Paige has been told that her entire life is a lie.  It's really dubious to suggest her desire to understand what her parents do is in any way comparable to regular kids wanting to know what their parents do for a living.

But in some ways it absolutely is just like that. Her parents are in government intelligence. That's a job where you're not allowed to share details. In that way, it's really not that different than her parents being in the CIA or even being psychiatrists. Or hell, even being a pastor, which is why Pastor Tim shouldn't be telling things to his wife, really. Only in his case it seems to be more up to his discretion (or lack thereof). Kimmie's dad is not going to be telling her what strategy they're discussing at the meetings about Afghanistan or that he's going out to meet an Afghani warlord to try to make a deal in exchange for giving him weapons to fight the Soviets. It's irresponsible of P&E to their sources to be giving that kind of detail.

Edited June 3, 2016 by sistermagpie

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

But in some cases it absolutely is just like that. Her parents are in government intelligence. 

Agents of a foreign government.  It's really no different than learning that her parents are mobsters.

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Agents of a foreign government.  It's really no different than learning that her parents are mobsters.

That's irrelevant in this context, though. If a CIA parent wouldn't be giving their teenager operational details, why would a parent who was in MI-6 or Mossad? Regardless of whether the kid was from the same country as the parents? Them working for a government foreign to Paige give her any more security clearance. We don't need to make analogies to the mob. They work for a government intelligence agency.

Edited June 3, 2016 by sistermagpie

[madam magpie]

Elizabeth (and Philip, I guess) don't want to lie to Paige. All this discussion about what Paige does or doesn't deserve is irrelevant. The people with the information want to tell her the truth. They just don't know how or how much or when, and so on. They want to be honest, they value trust. Plus they're afraid the truth will make her hate them, even as they want her to know it. This is an allegory for regular parenting and the issues that come with it: sex, school shootings, nuclear war, drugs, why that neighbor guy hits his wife, whatever...all the hard things that parents struggle to discuss with their kids. For regular people, it's "Mom, did you do drugs? Which ones?" For Paige and Elizabeth, it's "Mom, how many people have you killed?" 

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's irrelevant in this context, though. If a CIA parent wouldn't be giving their teenager operational details, why would a parent who was in MI-6 or Mossad? Regardless of whether the kid was from the same country as the parents? Them working for a government foreign to Paige give her any more security clearance. We don't need to make analogies to the mob. They work for a government intelligence agency.

An enemy government intelligent agency.  Paige is an American who has learned that her parents are spies for a foreign government; she's clearly uncomfortable with that, and is trying to figure out what her parents do and whether she should be okay with hit.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, SeanC said:

An enemy government intelligent agency.  Paige is an American who has learned that her parents are spies for a foreign government; she's clearly uncomfortable with that, and is trying to figure out what her parents do and whether she should be okay with hit.

I know, but I don't see how that relates to this context. Her parents are not Americans, they are KGB officers who work under security clearance. Kimmie might not know if she's okay with her dad in the CIA either, but he's not going to start laying out what he's doing to her because of it. I know what Paige wants and what Paige thinks she's entitled to, that's not in question.

[Darrenbrett]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's irrelevant in this context, though. If a CIA parent wouldn't be giving their teenager operational details, why would a parent who was in MI-6 or Mossad? Regardless of whether the kid was from the same country as the parents? Them working for a government foreign to Paige give her any more security clearance. We don't need to make analogies to the mob. They work for a government intelligence agency.

Excellent point! Realistically, the only way this might really work is that the parents are granted permission to continue disclosing information because the agency in charge (in this case the KGB) sees it as a means to recruiting/prepping Paige. While it makes for interesting drama, in reality they didn't have to tell her as many details as they have.

Also, certainly P & E must be aware that at some point their disclosure to Paige moves her into the accomplice category. This is an interesting aspect that the show hasn't yet explored very much. Elizabeth is probably too much of a diehard to consider or worry about this, but I think Philip would think about it - and at least voice his concerns.

[babyPhat279]

Did anyone else roll their eyes at Gabriel's speech to William? It just seemed like the same bullshit they tell everyone, "you will be treated like a hero," blah blah blah. The only reason I can see that William accepted it is the hope that this really will all be over soon, not how he will be treated at home or when he will be sent home. Interesting though that post-vacation (or whatever we are calling the 7-month jump) that Phillip seems to be more willing to stay in line. Or perhaps he feels that way because he doesn't have to worry about Martha anymore.

As for Paige, yeah they have let that girl walk all over them for years and she knows it. The fact that she didn't shit her pants way back when Phillip tore pages out of the bible leads me to believe that she knows she can get away with quite a lot. I'm not sure why they don't lay down the law. I also find it interesting that she doesn't ask why they think their country's way of life is better, especially with all the anti-communist propaganda she's probably heard growing up.

[curbcrusher]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I honestly can't see how the show would have gone forward given what it's focused on without telling Paige and possibly Henry too. One of their inspirations was "the talk" that CIA kids get.

While I enjoy the show tremendously, this is the reason that I'm not excited by the Paige storyline and I'm a bit incredulous when I hear that their inspiration is the "the talk." Based on my knowledge of the "talk," the fictional Paige talk and subsequent handling of her violation of the trust have not been consistent with experience.  "The talk" is very heavy on really dark consequences and yet there was none of that here. And running your mouth after the talk was just unacceptable. The telling of Pastor Tim, and P&Es reaction is just unbelievable for me.

But, it's a TV show, and to move their story forward the creators have to make a fictional situation that fit's their vision regardless of the reality that inspires them. Another thing going on right now in the story that is just out of whack with my reality is the access code in Don's office. In my experience in the mid-80s at a defense contractor, the access codes were classified at the same level as the technology being worked on. That meant they didn't sit in a office that unescorted visitors could be left in. Secure areas always required at least 2 people with clearance to be present. No exceptions.

What happens to Tatiana will be interesting. She has apparently been offered the Kenya job anticipating the success of the biotoxin retrieval. Since it looks like that isn't going to happen, I wonder if her promotion gets withdrawn, and she gets to go to the research institute where Nina was working.  Since the title of the next episode is Persona Non Grata, and Stan's boss talked about someone getting PNGed, I wonder if its her. That could be a career killer.

[Hanahope]

So one of the things that really caught my eye during the episode was Oleg reviewing the plans for Challenger and making some comment about how some part may have a dual purpose (or the shuttle itself may have a dual purpose).  The implication I got was a concern by the Soviets that Challenger was going to be a spy satellite or something.  The whole bit made me wonder if we are supposed to think that maybe the Soviets did something that ultimately caused the shuttle to explode, or the writers wanted to make that subtle impression.

I like seeing the FBI finally figuring some things out and demonstrating how ultimately some spies were caught and/or bad information got passed on to the spies instead.  

I liked that Oleg put basic human decency (saving a large population from a deadly virus) over the political interests of his country.  Its one thing to spy for economic or political info and advantage.  Its another to risk millions of lives.  William is obviously having some similar thoughts himself.

Elizabeth and Phillip need to have a good conversation with Paige and explain why she can have some info, but not all, and exactly what they expect from her.  Its sounding like they never had that conversation before beyond the 'yeah we're spies' intro.

[Clanstarling]

IIRC, and time has fuzzed the edges of my memory, there was talk about the shuttles (perhaps not Challenger specifically) having dual purposes by Americans at the time. I didn't get any feeling they were trying to implicate the Soviets in the explosion, as the cause was pretty clear at the time (though given the plotlines - maybe they'll hint it was a mole at the O ring manufacturer).

Edited June 3, 2016 by clanstarling

[Bannon]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Why the focus on this idea of solitary as the natural conclusion to Paige's situation? There are children of Illegals who are not in solitary or in prison and never have been. Pastor Tim is willingly keeping quiet about it and Paige is simply going to his church like she always did, but more so. 

Of course the parents have put her into a situation where she's in danger probably mostly of being deported than being put in prison. There's no way to get around that they've tied their fates to hers when she never agreed to be a spy. They're not defecting to protect her from that because they're doing this for a reason connected to their own loyalty and perceived duty to their country, just like any parent who do things in their own life motivated by things other than their children's happiness. They think this stuff is important. That's especially understandable coming from these two people whose happiness was considered far less than Paige's has been.

Or sometimes they are motivated by their children, but not in the sense of prioritizing keeping their innocence. Which is why, when Paige demanded to know the truth, they did not make up a lie. Which Paige appreciates and is probably one of the reasons she's not in full rebellion. As she said flat-out to Pastor Tim, they told her the truth because she asked for it even though that was maybe a mistake. They're making themselves vulnerable to each other because that's the price of intimacy they all want. 

Let's be clear. This isn't about Paige's happiness. This is about bringing Paige, a child, into a criminal conspiracy, which exposes the child, certainly the moment she turns 18 in several hundred days, but perhaps before, to decades spent in solitary confinement, one of the worst fates imaginable. Paige is a bona fide U.S. citizen, because she was born on American soil, regardless of the illegal status of her parents. American citizens convicted of participating in espionage against the United States tend to be imprisoned in solitary confinement in a maximum security Federal prison, which in those days was  in Illinois. That's what her parents have done to her. I don't care what your ideological devotion is, that is a supremely unethical thing to do a person who is not capable of informed consent.

P & E are deserving of no respect whatsoever from Paige. Zero. What is interesting is whether Paige will develop enough understanding to grasp this undeniable fact.

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, terracool said:

I'm struck by how my best program on TV can also somehow be my worst program at the same time, and the difference is Paige Paige Paige.  I am increasingly disgusted by the whole story line and, at the same time, increasingly bored with it.  While I still mentally think of the show in terms of my favorite show on TV, I find that when I actually watch, it is becoming an uninteresting slog because way too much time is spent on Whiny Paige.  It'll be easy to finish out the season because there's only one episode left, but if next season starts out heading up Whiny Paige Road again, I know I'll lose interest quickly.

While shows like this require some suspension of disbelief for the main storyline, we all expect the background details to ring true.  P&E's demurral to Paige's demands are so discordantly unlikely and unreal that it's hard to keep watching. Example is them telling her to please, pretty please understand that she doesn't HAVE to work Matthew for them, and that she should please not worry about them.  What would ring more true to many would be for them to tell her that under absolutely no circumstances whatsoever is she to continue her bs amateur-hour questioning Matthew and then start limiting her time with him.  

But the problem isn't "with Paige" or "with the parents".  The problem is with the writers who somehow think that this storyline and character are interesting (or, given that it could have been interesting, is well-executed), because it's not.   They need to broom this nonsense next season.

You've written almost exactly what I was thinking over in my head but hadn't yet typed out. I re-watched the episode last night and after watching the first and second scenes with Paige, I fast-forwarded through the rest of them. BORING. The Whiny Paige (yes!) storyline seems to drag on and on and it's not nearly as compelling as the rest of the show.

Also, when you watch a scene like the one where Gabriel and Philip talk and then Gabriel sits down on the stairs, you realize just what a lightweight actress Holly Taylor is compared to the other strong leads. (Not her fault really as she's simply a competent teen actor working with hugely talented adult actors.) Heck, I think even Keidrich Sellati, who plays Henry, does a more convincing job, but Daniel Flaherty is also weak as Matthew. Watching Paige and Matthew interact feels like watching a high school play! The scriptwriters can't keep giving these two young people scenes that are so bad in comparison to the rest of the show; it's becoming like watching two different shows. 

I am praying that next season relegates Paige's story somewhat to the background and just lets her parents get on with their work, and their inner growth/awakening. Yes, yes, I know the show is actually about a marriage and a family, I've known that all along, but until the "Paige knows" storyline was introduced I loved this show and would re-watch it twice through, not wanting to miss even one detail. Now it seems to be a whirlpool that's pulling the entire show downward. Ok, yes, Paige is a "typical American teenager with morals". Her parents are hard-core cold-blooded KGB agents who can't figure out how to handle their emotional daughter because her innocence being corrupted is giving them the feels. I. get. it. Got it. Don't need to see more of it.

Edited June 3, 2016 by RedHawk

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, shura said:

That's fine. My issue is with her behavior though, not with her underlying feelings and whether she is justified in having them. I just don't enjoy seeing a person act like she's a damn princess and others are her peasants who owe her immediate and complete answers to whatever she decides she wants to know. Let's have her kick Philip in the nuts, too, and then start wondering why people are not enjoying this given that she owes him no respect.

I don't enjoy seeing adults bringing children into a criminal conspiracy which exposes the child to the risk of life in prison. I tend to think that behavior is rather more horrible than demanding answers to questions.

From a dramatic standpoint, what is interesting to me is whether Paige develops enough awareness to grasp how hideously her parents have behaved, and what she'll do about it. The writers of this show have a great tendency to make everyone but E & P, and Gabriel, as dense as a piece of stone in the Washington Monument, so I'm not too optimistic.   

[Hanahope]

17 minutes ago, clanstarling said:

IIRC, and time has fuzzed the edges of my memory, there was talk about the shuttles (perhaps not Challenger specifically) having dual purposes by Americans at the time. I didn't get any feeling they were trying to implicate the Soviets in the explosion, as the cause was pretty clear at the time (though given the plotlines - maybe they'll hint it was a mole at the O ring manufacturer).

Yeah, I was wondering if the writers are trying to say, 'we know what caused the explosion, but how do we know it wasn't because of a spy in the manufacture or assembly?'  Maybe the Soviets (or whoever), didn't intend for the shuttle to explode, maybe they just tried to place their own bug/spy device in the shuttle, but by messing with it, it ultimately led to the part failure and explosion.

It made me think because Oleg specifically mentioned "Challenger" and not just "American space shuttles".

Edited June 3, 2016 by Hanahope

[RedHawk]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I don't enjoy seeing adults bringing children into a criminal conspiracy which exposes the child to the risk of life in prison. I tend to think that behavior is rather more horrible than demanding answers to questions.

From a dramatic standpoint, what is interesting to me is whether Paige develops enough awareness to grasp how hideously her parents have behaved, and what she'll do about it. The writers of this show have a great tendency to make everyone but E & P, and Gabriel, as dense as a piece of stone in the Washington Monument, so I'm not too optimistic.   

Unfortunately, if they continue the focus on Paige's emotions and awareness, I fear it will ruin this show. 

[Bannon]

Just now, RedHawk said:

Unfortunately, if they continue the focus on Paige's emotions and awareness, I fear it will ruin this show. 

Yeah, this story arc just hasn't been well executed, writing or acting, in my view, so far.  I really think the Martha operation was, in many respects, the central pillar of the show, and that pillar was extremely well constructed, writing and acting. We'll see how the structure holds up with that pillar removed.  

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, curbcrusher said:

While I enjoy the show tremendously, this is the reason that I'm not excited by the Paige storyline and I'm a bit incredulous when I hear that their inspiration is the "the talk." Based on my knowledge of the "talk," the fictional Paige talk and subsequent handling of her violation of the trust have not been consistent with experience. 

Yeah, I think they were using the inspiration very loosely. It's hilarious to remember how Philip wound up that whole Stingers reveal by apologizing for stating the obvious, but if Paige told anyone, including Pastor Tim, they'd go to jail. Only to have Paige still not seem to quite grasp the consequences of things.

19 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

The whole bit made me wonder if we are supposed to think that maybe the Soviets did something that ultimately caused the shuttle to explode, or the writers wanted to make that subtle impression.

I doubt it. The show's shown it's very aware of stuff just going wrong and the Soviets getting stuff wrong and I don't think they'd be taking that kind of liberty. 

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

P & E are deserving of no respect whatsoever from Paige. Zero. What is interesting is whether Paige will develop enough understanding to grasp this undeniable fact.

But that's basically just the same as being annoyed that Philip and Elizabeth don't let Paige know she does owe them respect. People have wildly different reactions to this situation and how they imagine they themselves would react to it. They identify with different characters or feelings in different scenes.

Naturally in the show's perspective on family Paige is interested in knowing who her parents were, what choices they faced when they were her age, and understanding why they agreed to live this life and wanting to be close to them, because that's the metaphor for normal growing up and those are things that motivate characters on this show. 

I mean, Philip and Elizabeth were treated more hideously than Paige has been, with nobody doing much to mitigate their feelings, and their feelings about their country are complicated and still positive (despite a lot of people assuming it's a given that all the Russian characters really all love the USA and consider their own country garbage). As was noted earlier, Paige thinks her mother is avoiding a question when she talks about wanting to serve her country when for Elizabeth that is answering the question. 

17 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Also, when you watch a scene like the one where Gabriel and Philip talk and then Gabriel sits down on the stairs, you realize just what a lightweight actress Holly Taylor is compared to the other strong leads. (Not her fault really as she's simply a competent teen actor working with hugely talented adult actors.) Heck, I think even Keidrich Sellati, who plays Henry, does a more convincing job, but Daniel Flaherty is also weak as Matthew. Watching Paige and Matthew interact feels like watching a high school play!

Yeah, I do agree. It's hard for me not to see a difference between scenes with the younger kids and the exceptionally talented adult cast. Especially on this show where the adult characters are all so closed-off yet showing all this complicated stuff without saying anything. Paige is on the other end of the spectrum where her face is often contorted into this stricken mask that doesn't to me match her emotions and even her anger doesn't carry real authority. I see the point of Paige's story, certainly, but this is probably part of what makes scenes with her start to seem repetitive. So the best parts are often when she inspires the parent to do or say something new and interesting--like Elizabeth's talk about Smolensk and Philip's talk about his family and Tobolsk, or even that first Stingers conversation where we saw how they went through with it. A real Paige in that situation probably would have reacted far more than she did on the show (as I think people mentioned here, there'd probably be obvious physical changes, even, at such terrible news).

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

All the disgust with the Paige character is reminding me of the dislike for the character of Dana Brody on Homeland 9Showtime). What is it with teen girls on espionage type shows?

It's a broader issue than that, I think. It's not just teen girls on spy shows; you see it across lots of different genres. It's Angel's broody son Connor on Angel; it's killjoy wives like Skyler on Breaking Bad, Lisa on Six Feet Under, or Megan on Mad Men . . . Anytime there's a demanding domestic presence that distracts the main character(s) from more straightforwardly entertaining pursuits like fighting demons or drinking and fucking your way through the 1960s, there's always a segment of the audience that feels like this isn't what they signed up for.

[TimWil]

Remember Nikki and Paolo on Lost? Well, Paige has turned into the Nikki and Paolo of The Americans except she's been a central character from the start. She reminds me of these ballet school girls I see going back and forth to classes/rehearsals at Lincoln Center here in NYC. There's a very prim, naive aspect to these girls which sets my teeth on edge. Paige does, too. She might as well have her hair restyled to feature a bun. It would certainly make her look more like a Russian.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

That's irrelevant in this context, though. If a CIA parent wouldn't be giving their teenager operational details, why would a parent who was in MI-6 or Mossad? Regardless of whether the kid was from the same country as the parents? Them working for a government foreign to Paige give her any more security clearance. We don't need to make analogies to the mob. They work for a government intelligence agency.

It's really only slightly comparable to other spy families though, and that's where it gets tricky.  Their entire life is spying, they never go home, they never have a moment off, because they are constantly on enemy soil, and maintaining cover.  I do think it's a bit more like a mob family, not a famous mob family, but a secret mob family if they were stationed in Falls Church or another upper class non-mob neighborhood without any other mob members around. 

My big question before I even respond to a few other quotes is this:

How SHOULD Paige be written?

Given everything that is show cannon so far, the most important of which are that they are a family with two teeens, and the KGB said for them to train Paige or THEY, the KGB would, and that Paige was already asking questions and wanting to know the truth on her own.  (yes Bannon, I know yours, defect, or Paige should rat them out, but I want other ideas here)

Just what kind of reaction from Paige would make a better show?  A more realistic show?  I hear "whiny" and I hear "naive" and "bossy" and "demanding" and hell, I've even said a few of those things myself here.  What reactions would make this something you'd like watching?  What would make it good?

What I see so far is Paige has reacted in terror and confusion after the creepy trip to Germany, and reached out to an adult she trusted.  After that her parents came down hard telling her she must deal with that mess, and she's been a drudge trudging to "work" for them ever since, spending most of her free time both sucking up to, and reporting on the Pastors.  The past couple of episodes she's apparently decided that hell, if she has to be  spy anyway, why not enjoy it a bit and have some say in her life, and possibly be valuable and more adult by reporting on Stan and Mathew.  She's not rewarded or respected for that, instead her parents react quite differently that she expected, no pat on the head, no "thanks honey."  Still, she wants to know what they are doing, not the bullshit "Working for my country" crap Elizabeth shovels, but after watching her mother easily kill a man, "WHAT DO YOU DO?"  Specifics, not platitudes.  She is involved now, she wants to know what she's involved in, so she asks for details, but most of all for no more lies.

I just get all of that.  I do agree that since it's one shock after another, and still no real answers in sight for her, her acting is almost always required to be "shock" or "dismay" or "pain/confusion" which leads us to way too many eyebrow scenes.

Anyway, aside from ratting out her parents, which she still may do, just what could Paige do here that wouldn't annoy people and yet still seem realistic?

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

An enemy government intelligent agency.  Paige is an American who has learned that her parents are spies for a foreign government; she's clearly uncomfortable with that, and is trying to figure out what her parents do and whether she should be okay with hit.

Exactly.  She's in a position where there really is no handbook.  If she's a loving daughter she's automatically a fake at the rest of her life.  She doesn't even know what she's being loyal TO, which is why she's demanding to know that. 

Oh, and I meant to say, her parents telling her what she's being loyal to IS part of the training the KGB has demanded of them for Paige.  Her parents are caught because they don't want to lie to their daughter, but the truth is too ugly to tell.  In a way, Paige's reactions and questions are a mirror for them.  Because of Paige, they now must really look at what they do as well, specifically, and probably examine not only if that is a life they want for Paige, but if it's really a life they want for THEMSELVES.

1 hour ago, Darrenbrett said:

Excellent point! Realistically, the only way this might really work is that the parents are granted permission to continue disclosing information because the agency in charge (in this case the KGB) sees it as a means to recruiting/prepping Paige. While it makes for interesting drama, in reality they didn't have to tell her as many details as they have.

Also, certainly P & E must be aware that at some point their disclosure to Paige moves her into the accomplice category. This is an interesting aspect that the show hasn't yet explored very much. Elizabeth is probably too much of a diehard to consider or worry about this, but I think Philip would think about it - and at least voice his concerns.

The KGB are trusting Philip and Elizabeth to train their daughter in any way that will work.  They are too far away to micromanage this, the same way they didn't micromanage the handling of the Pastors. 

Of course they know Paige is in accomplice territory, they are training her to work for the KGB!  I do think that will, as I said above, end up with them both taking a long look at what they do, and what they began when they were Paige's age.  I think that's the whole point.

1 hour ago, babyPhat279 said:

Did anyone else roll their eyes at Gabriel's speech to William? It just seemed like the same bullshit they tell everyone, "you will be treated like a hero," blah blah blah. The only reason I can see that William accepted it is the hope that this really will all be over soon, not how he will be treated at home or when he will be sent home. Interesting though that post-vacation (or whatever we are calling the 7-month jump) that Phillip seems to be more willing to stay in line. Or perhaps he feels that way because he doesn't have to worry about Martha anymore.

As for Paige, yeah they have let that girl walk all over them for years and she knows it. The fact that she didn't shit her pants way back when Phillip tore pages out of the bible leads me to believe that she knows she can get away with quite a lot. I'm not sure why they don't lay down the law. I also find it interesting that she doesn't ask why they think their country's way of life is better, especially with all the anti-communist propaganda she's probably heard growing up.

I never, ever believe Gabe has anyone's best interests at heart.  He's a handler, and he's seen a lot.  I doubt he has any delusions left about what began as a great cause.  William strikes me as a pragmatist, still loyal, but with no scales on his eyes about "home."  He's also watched a dream disintegrate into horrible yuck.  His partner was killed.  He knows the USSR is completely broke, and hopelessly corrupt.  He doesn't like the United States any better, after all, we are the ones developing that bio weapon.  He's like an old jaded spy that sees that both sides are full of shit.  He's trying to be like the one person he actually does admire, they guy who didn't launch the nukes in spite of what the equipment was telling him.  He's down to his own morality now, screw these awful governments, and simply do what is right as a person.  He basically

Spoiler

kills himself next episode to not give up

Philip and Gabe, I don't know if he cares about Elizabeth, other than she's Philip's wife.

1 hour ago, curbcrusher said:

What happens to Tatiana will be interesting. She has apparently been offered the Kenya job anticipating the success of the biotoxin retrieval. Since it looks like that isn't going to happen, I wonder if her promotion gets withdrawn, and she gets to go to the research institute where Nina was working.  Since the title of the next episode is Persona Non Grata, and Stan's boss talked about someone getting PNGed, I wonder if its her. That could be a career killer.

I think the PNG will be whomever meets with the contact to retrieve the mail robot tapes.

As for Tatiana?  She's been around a while, I kind of hope she's smart enough to not give up Oleg, which would be convicting herself after all.  There are many, many ways the FBI could have caught William.  So, I think it could go either way, and quite believably, with Tatiana.  I'm interested to see where they go with that.

23 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It's a broader issue than that, I think. It's not just teen girls on spy shows; you see it across lots of different genres. It's Angel's broody son Connor on Angel; it's killjoy wives like Skyler on Breaking Bad, Lisa on Six Feet Under, or Megan on Mad Men . . . Anytime there's a demanding domestic presence that distracts the main character(s) from more straightforwardly entertaining pursuits like fighting demons or drinking and fucking your way through the 1960s, there's always a segment of the audience that feels like this isn't what they signed up for.

Exactly.  Damn families!  Always interfering with action sequences!  These reactions are like clockwork.

[FormerMod-a1]

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

How SHOULD Paige be written?

I took my reply to Recruit Your Children and Other Center Directives as I didn't think my comments were going to just be about this episode.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

Yeah, I was wondering if the writers are trying to say, 'we know what caused the explosion, but how do we know it wasn't because of a spy in the manufacture or assembly?'  Maybe the Soviets (or whoever), didn't intend for the shuttle to explode, maybe they just tried to place their own bug/spy device in the shuttle, but by messing with it, it ultimately led to the part failure and explosion.

It made me think because Oleg specifically mentioned "Challenger" and not just "American space shuttles".

Oleg specifically said that they wondered if there was another purpose to the shuttle, so I think the writers intended for us to take that at face value.  They mentioned the Challenger because that was the newest shuttle at the time; they don't need to look at the plans for the old shuttle since they've probably already stolen and seen those.

 

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, and I meant to say, her parents telling her what she's being loyal to IS part of the training the KGB has demanded of them for Paige.  Her parents are caught because they don't want to lie to their daughter, but the truth is too ugly to tell.  In a way, Paige's reactions and questions are a mirror for them.  Because of Paige, they now must really look at what they do as well, specifically, and probably examine not only if that is a life they want for Paige, but if it's really a life they want for THEMSELVES.

I think Paige has been written fine, and her reactions aren't unnatural for a teenager thrust into her position.  She's freaking out, as she should be, and she's fumbling around and she's in need of some guidance.  My problem is with how P&E are handling her and how they are guiding her.  Explaining their beliefs, explaining something of their roles, talking about their family and home country are all tihngs I would expect.  Telling Paige details about their operations when she pushes for details is dumb, unnecessary, and puts them and their co-workers at risk, so I was shocked they would slip up like that, especially when they've had months and months to figure out how to handle her desire to know all.  She's still a child, and they are forgetting that they can still act like parents, I think.

I also would much rather that they focus on P&E in the way you have suggested in the quote I highlighted - as an opportunity to go deep with P&E and have them look more closely at what they are doing and question whether they want to keep doing it.  That would be more interesting to me.  Maybe that is something they will focus on more next season and this season with Paige was a way to set that up.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

t's really only slightly comparable to other spy families though, and that's where it gets tricky.  Their entire life is spying, they never go home, they never have a moment off, because they are constantly on enemy soil, and maintaining cover.

Right, I don't mean to say it's just like if her parents were in the CIA--obviously there's so many ways it's not like that! But I just mean very narrowly from the parents pov they have some of the same reasons to give her for not giving her operational details. It's not just them being secretive. The one reason I can think of for them actually giving her some details is, as you say, they are supposed to be recruiting her. But it's not like they ever really seem to be trying to get her excited about the cause. So there is something odd about Philip and Elizabeth looking and acting as if they're trapped when Paige demands to know exactly where Philip is going as if there's no other thing they can do but tell her.

Of course, many people say the same thing about Stingers, that they could have lied. But I got their decision there and it seemed more of a decision. In a scene like this I find myself just thinking wait, aren't there other things at play here besides not lying to Paige?

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Just what kind of reaction from Paige would make a better show?  A more realistic show?  I hear "whiny" and I hear "naive" and "bossy" and "demanding" and hell, I've even said a few of those things myself here.  What reactions would make this something you'd like watching?  What would make it good?

Personally, I do still like watching it. I get where Paige is coming from and I think almost all of her reactions are good metaphors for how teens react to anything. I remember back in S2 in that Bible ripping scene I felt like Paige there was in that adolescent place where she wanted what she saw as the good parts of being a grown up (wanting to be able to have the freedom to do what she wanted and have people respect her opinions like she was an equal) without the bad part (get people get mad at you back, be held accountable, still have to do stuff she didn't want to do).

I buy all the different positions she's had on this pretty much, including her impulsively telling her pastor and then having to be stuck with the guy forever. I can totally believe that Paige herself now seems miles removed from the girl who made that phone call (I mean she feels that way to herself) and thinks she's kind of on the same level as her parents now and again wants to be more involved etc. That, I think, is also part of her positioning herself with Henry again, both with her parents (telling them Henry might be saying anything about them--meaning Paige, Elizabeth and Philip--to Stan and had to be watched) and Matthew (telling him he's made Henry's day and his dad is great with Henry too). She has, I think, always been characterized as a girl who wanted to be the third parental unit. It's the same reason she did laundry without being asked. 

Of course, that's a different question than what makes it enjoyable and that's just going to be hard to put across to everybody. Paige's specific personality has led to a lot of conflict and I'm not sure it would be so much better if she was rebelling by doing drugs etc. She's a conflict generator, and that means she's going to be abrasive. Also it's always been obvious that if they brought a kid in, the entire spy story would be at the mercy of that kid. It's something I feared from the beginning but also saw was inevitable and now here it is. 

I can't call it a flaw because I think it's very deliberate. We are supposed to be seeing how too super spies are brought to their knees by their teenage daughter--and frankly, that wouldn't work if Paige was strutting around rejecting their authority because for all that people feel they give in to her, both of them do believe in respect for your parents. That kind of stuff from Paige absolutely would bring out the strict parent in both of them. If she turned them in, the show would be over. If she ran away, well, then she'd be off the show and plenty of people would be happy about it. So I think they made the right decision in having her be like her parents--very much interested in finding common ground and connecting over this secret rather than being against them. That's a better choice. 

Rebellious teens in many ways can be much more annoying than Paige on TV, imo. If Paige is stupid for demanding answers and blabbing to her Pastor, she'd be even more stupid if she was out drunk driving or putting herself in danger and "acting out" in other ways. That stuff can be seriously cliche and boring, especially since it's usually impervious to whatever the parents do. 

So whatever they do there are going to be times when we're stuck watching a teenager when we'd rather be with the adult characters. I think that's just a given on a show like this. Paige sometimes seeming to be 10 steps behind in her naivete is probably much less annoying than a Paige who was written to be more sophisticated than her parents on all this stuff. 

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

As for Tatiana?  She's been around a while, I kind of hope she's smart enough to not give up Oleg, which would be convicting herself after all.  There are many, many ways the FBI could have caught William.  So, I think it could go either way, and quite believably, with Tatiana.  I'm interested to see where they go with that.

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

Personally, one of the things that seems most interesting to me about this is the fallout for Oleg. I don't mean him getting caught or punished, but him realizing that his tip didn't just stop the bioweapon by getting rid of some turncoat American making extra cash by selling secrets, but outed an Illegal and maybe several more. 

[shura]

57 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Anyway, aside from ratting out her parents, which she still may do, just what could Paige do here that wouldn't annoy people and yet still seem realistic?

For me, Paige would be less annoying if she showed more humility, more recognition that her parents don't have to tell her everything she wants to know. I'm sure there are ways to have her ask all the same questions she wants the answers to and have her accept lack of answers or the answers she doesn't like in a less dickish manner. That might require better acting though, and that's a whole other issue.

Do I wish she was written this way? No, not really. What the show is doing with Paige works for me. It might sound weird, but I don't mind being annoyed with her. I am not annoyed with Matthew, for example, but I feel like I am going to be bored with him soon. I'd rather be annoyed than bored. Besides, what would I be venting about here if I wasn't annoyed with Paige?

[Umbelina]

24 minutes ago, shura said:

For me, Paige would be less annoying if she showed more humility, more recognition that her parents don't have to tell her everything she wants to know. I'm sure there are ways to have her ask all the same questions she wants the answers to and have her accept lack of answers or the answers she doesn't like in a less dickish manner. That might require better acting though, and that's a whole other issue.

Do I wish she was written this way? No, not really. What the show is doing with Paige works for me. It might sound weird, but I don't mind being annoyed with her. I am not annoyed with Matthew, for example, but I feel like I am going to be bored with him soon. I'd rather be annoyed than bored. Besides, what would I be venting about here if I wasn't annoyed with Paige?

This made me think.

I think the Jennings were doing all of that.  They told her "no lies but we can't tell you everything" etc.  The thing is, that was working for Paige, right up until the moment she watched her mother kill someone, efficiently, and with no emotion.

The aftermath of thinking of that is what lead to Paige telling her mother "no more bullshit, I want to know EXACTLY what you are doing, not hear the crap about your loyalty to your country.  What do you DO?" 

In reality, Paige does have a right to know that, and if I'm honest with myself, I would want to know as well.  Just what am I covering for here?  Are you murdering people?  I'm involved now damn it, and to stay involved I need a lot more answers from you two, and I'm tired of the vague stuff about you working for peace.  The shock at that killing, which was honestly not a big deal to her mom, is making her ask the right questions now.  What do you DO?  What are you going to do RIGHT NOW?  What the hell have you gotten me into?

She has a right to know those answers, it's not bratty, it's actually quite adult.  Which of us wouldn't want to know?  I know, for sure, I would.

[Chaos Theory]

I think i see the last scene different then a lot of people.  I was actually annoyed that P&E weren't just a little proud of their daughter for basically using initiative and getting info out of Mathew.    Then I realized maybe initiative is something Americans value but not so much Communist Russians.  I can see P&E getting worried that Paige was in over her head with Matthew and since they already had Stan they didn't need the second hand info.  However I think it was them who handled the situation badly.  There is a time for "Because I said so" and there is atoms to explain why you say no. I think Paige has earned a certain amount of explanation.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Chaos Theory
This time editing was my fault/not my fault

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

 I was actually annoyed that P&E weren't just a little proud of their daughter for basically using initiative and getting info out of Mathew.

Because her initiative is a blatantly bad idea. As Paige herself pointed out, they talk to Stan all the time. Philip is his friend--he's been very open with him about stuff going on on more than one occasion. There is no reason for Paige to decide she's running a necessary spy operation with his teenage son who he tells things to to make up for not being there for him. Not only was Paige suggesting she fake a desire to hang out with the kid for her parents sake (disturbing to her parents) but that she start asking him questions about what his father is doing, something Philip himself has wisely always refrained from doing. 

So Paige was basically presenting them with the idea that she start faking her life in exactly the way Philip, especially, has never wanted her to do, and in doing so start making it clear that somebody in the Jennings house really wants to know what's going on at the FBI. Just shut that down. 

It's not just that Communist Russians don't value initiative, it's that actual spies understand the danger they're living under much more than Paige does. She obviously really doesn't get that she could get caught doing this (she's not so different from her version of Henry there as she likes to think) or see the consequences of getting caught. 

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

However I think it was them who handled the situation badly.  There is a time for "Because I said so" and there is atoms toe pain why you say no. I think Paige has earned a certain amount of explanation.

True, but it's also not like Paige was actually asking them for an explanation. When they said it was different she didn't say "Why?" to get an answer, she said "Why?" as a preface to her next rant about how they were doing it wrong.

46 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She has a right to know those answers, it's not bratty, it's actually quite adult.  Which of us wouldn't want to know?  I know, for sure, I would.

Or perfectly poised between kid and adult. She's smart enough to understand that Mom killing means that serious shit is going on that is not like Pastor Tim's work, but not smart enough to realize just how much this is a reason to *not* want to know what's going on. Every new understanding of the danger she gets makes her illusion of safety worse in a way.

Of course, it's good to think back and remember that this was exactly the sort of thing Pastor Tim was telling her to find out if they did before, with the directive that if they were doing this sort of thing they needed to be stopped. Which always showed Pastor Tim himself being naive or not dealing with the reality--which seems to have changed a bit with his Ethiopia trip. If nothing else he seems to get that splitting up this family isn't just a philosophical question and he doesn't really want to be King Solomon on this one anymore. And even more interestingly, Paige seems to have moved on from wanting to just be honest about everything. Now it's her parents telling her they don't want or need her to be that much of a liar.

[hellmouse]

20 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think i see the last scene different then a lot of people.  I was actually annoyed that P&E weren't just a little proud of their daughter for basically using initiative and getting info out of Mathew.    Then I realized maybe initiate is something Americans vale but not so much Communist Russians.  I can see P&E getting worried that Paige was in over her head with Matthew and since they already had Stan they didn't need the second hand info.  However I think it was them who handled the situation badly.  There is a time for "Because I said so" and there is atoms toe pain why you say no. I think Paige has earned a certain amount of explanation.

In rewatching that scene, i thought that Philip and Elizabeth were alarmed that Paige was going to start working Matthew and getting in over her head. Philip said you do not have to do anything for us, and I think by anything he meant with Matthew. They would be horrified if Paige started dating Matthew in order to report on Stan. But Paige didn't understand that. She probably wasn't even thinking of that. Her parents are ten steps ahead of her in terms of how a relationship can be used to gain information. Paige was just thinking, wait a minute, that isn't true, I do have to do things for you. 

And then of course the phone rang, ending that line of discussion. 

I also think that Philip was being specific but vague when he answered her question about what he was picking up. It was Elizabeth who decided to tell everything, about it being part of a weapon, and I think that was a result of their conversation earlier, when Paige said "you never tell me the whole truth". So in this moment, Elizabeth decided to tell the whole truth. IMO it's a mistake because Paige can't handle it, but I can see where Elizabeth was coming from. 

Edited June 3, 2016 by hellmouse

[hellmouse]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Or perfectly poised between kid and adult. She's smart enough to understand that Mom killing means that serious shit is going on that is not like Pastor Tim's work, but not smart enough to realize just how much this is a reason to *not* want to know what's going on. Every new understanding of the danger she gets makes her illusion of safety worse in a way.

I agree. I don't think Paige realizes that she is becoming an accomplice to illegal activity and what that entails. She is focused on what this means for her family and her relationship with her parents. I'm sure she'll start to see the larger ramifications over time, but for now, her not thinking about it is just another way in which she is a sheltered teen. I don't find her naivete unbelievable at all. I actually find it fascinating that two spies raised such trusting, innocent and generally happy children. 

[babyPhat279]

Quote

Because her initiative is a blatantly bad idea. As Paige herself pointed out, they talk to Stan all the time. Philip is his friend--he's been very open with him about stuff going on on more than one occasion. There is no reason for Paige to decide she's running a necessary spy operation with his teenage son who he tells things to to make up for not being there for him.

I do think it's a bad idea, but I also have to point out that she did give them info they didn't have, and it propelled Phillip into having Gabriel call Martha's parents.

[JennyMominFL]

8 hours ago, Hanahope said:

So one of the things that really caught my eye during the episode was Oleg reviewing the plans for Challenger and making some comment about how some part may have a dual purpose (or the shuttle itself may have a dual purpose).  The implication I got was a concern by the Soviets that Challenger was going to be a spy satellite or something.  The whole bit made me wonder if we are supposed to think that maybe the Soviets did something that ultimately caused the shuttle to explode, or the writers wanted to make that subtle impression.

I like seeing the FBI finally figuring some things out and demonstrating how ultimately some spies were caught and/or bad information got passed on to the spies instead.  

I liked that Oleg put basic human decency (saving a large population from a deadly virus) over the political interests of his country.  Its one thing to spy for economic or political info and advantage.  Its another to risk millions of lives.  William is obviously having some similar thoughts himself.

Elizabeth and Phillip need to have a good conversation with Paige and explain why she can have some info, but not all, and exactly what they expect from her.  Its sounding like they never had that conversation before beyond the 'yeah we're spies' intro.

 

From my understanding, from what I learned in several university courses on the cold war , the USSR really did have concerns that the Space Shuttle program was masking subterfuge of some kind. I can't access what my class actually stated so I pulled this down from wiki

The development of the Buran began in the early 1970s as a response to the U.S. Space Shuttle program. Soviet officials were concerned about a perceived military threat posed by the U.S. Space Shuttle. In their opinion, the Shuttle's 30-ton payload-to-orbit capacity and, more significantly, its 15-ton payload return capacity, were a clear indication that one of its main objectives would be to place massive experimental laser weapons into orbit that could destroy enemy missiles from a distance of several thousands of kilometers. Their reasoning was that such weapons could only be effectively tested in actual space conditions and that to cut their development time and save costs it would be necessary to regularly bring them back to Earth for modifications and fine-tuning. Soviet officials were also concerned that the U.S. Space Shuttle could make a sudden dive into the atmosphere to drop bombs on Moscow

[Chaos Theory]

6 minutes ago, Gabrielle Tracy said:

Sheesh, if I had found out when I was a teen that my mom could kiss a$$ and take names and save my virtue, I'd have thought she was pretty awesome!

I don't think Paige is unaware of how dangerous the situation was but she is a little upset that her parents lie to her even when they are telling her the truth.  They told her their work wasn't very dangerous and yet Psige watched her Mother kill a guy without blinking.

Something Martha said makes me think of Paige lately probably paraphrasing; "You'll tell me the truth that isn't very true."  Right now P&E aren't being Paige's parents they are running her as an asset and treating her like one to.  

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, babyPhat279 said:

I do think it's a bad idea, but I also have to point out that she did give them info they didn't have, and it propelled Phillip into having Gabriel call Martha's parents.

And that wasn't information she intentionally drew out of him, something she got from being Matthew's actual friend.

 

28 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Right now P&E aren't being Paige's parents they are running her as an asset and treating her like one to.  

I think they're being her parents too. The only time she's acting like any sort of asset is with the Tims and that in itself isn't that different than any parent telling their kid they'd better be polite to their friends or they'd better volunteer at church and suck up to the pastor. And she's got good reasons for doing that since she doesn't want her parents going to jail. In this ep they just told her she should date and be friends based on her own tastes when she was telling them use her as an asset.

[Dowel Jones]

Speaking of the contact with Martha's parents, after her dad sat down and talked with Stan, is there a likelihood that he will again contact Stan to report that phone call, mostly because of its vague nature?  If Stan is on it, they may start/continue the surveillance of their phone, which may lead back to Gabriel. 

[Umbelina]

That's why Gabe was quick and called from a payphone, no time to trace.  I'm sure they still have surveillance on the parent's phone.

[gwhh]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

Agents of a foreign government.  It's really no different than learning that her parents are mobsters.

Actually that is opposite.  Mobsters are really American citizens, actually are married to there wives and love this great nation. 

[AliShibaz]

11 hours ago, Hanahope said:

It made me think because Oleg specifically mentioned "Challenger" and not just "American space shuttles".

Excellent insight. Well done!

[AliShibaz]

7 hours ago, hellmouse said:

And then of course the phone rang, ending that line of discussion.

P&E might want to consider installing another phone line that is reserved primarily for the parents. The idea being they can install a switch that turns off the ringer so when both parents go out, the last one out can turn off the ringer and so that phone never rings unless one of the parents is at home.

They can tell the children that phone is reserved for them and the children must not use it. Or they can let them use it to make outgoing calls. But it will never ring when both parents are out. I remember installing such a switch on my phone in the early 1970s. At that time, phones connected to the wall socket with three wires and one of them was for the ringer. So you just install a switch on that wire and you can turn the ringer on or off easily. You can even do it in such a way to disguise the switch so the kids would never even know about it. I'm not sure which option would be best for the Jennings. But I know that I was P or E, I would never want the kids answering a phone call for one of the parents originating from the "agency".

Edited June 4, 2016 by AliShibaz

[queenanne]

On 6/2/2016 at 0:14 AM, madam magpie said:

I think that's it, actually. This is new territory for them, and they're just winging it. I like that what's tripping up these incredibly brave, accomplished, in-control people is their teenage daughter. It's so incongruous, yet totally believable. Plus, to be honest with Paige, they have to face what they really do. "How many people have you killed" was a great exchange, but it was also a gotcha moment for Elizabeth.

That said, I agree that it seems dim for Paige not to get why Tim/Alice are different. It's because you blabbed to them, Paige!!!

Also, I agree that it seems Philip and Elizabeth don't want Paige working everyone, Matthew in particular. They seem disturbed by or at least uncomfortable with that. 

I think if I were Paige it would confuse me, somewhat.  Either you want a cool calculating machine like Elizabeth, applying these lessons to all parts and all comers, or ya don't.  Seems to me the Center would want cold dispassionate evaluation of all assets for their usefulness.

On 6/2/2016 at 9:34 AM, Bannon said:

I really don'tunderstand this sentiment. It would be perfectly reasonable for Paige to go to her parents, and say, "Gee, Mom, gosh, Dad, in about two years I'm going to be a good prospect for life in prison without parole, due to the fact that you have involved me in your criminal conspiracy. Guess what? I don't have anything close to you ideological devotion to seeing this criminal conspiracy succeed, and it would be really dumb of you two to expect me to have that devotion. Why did you involve me in your criminal conspiracy? Because I was asking a lot of questions with regard to why my parents lie to me all the time? Guess what again, Mom and Dad? That's a perfectly reasonable qustion for a child to ask of parents. Why have you two been such A-holes as to involve me in criminal conspiracy which could very well lead to me spending decades in solitary confinement? Because of your "cause"? Guess what again? I don't give a flying f*uck about your "cause". I just want a chance to choose my own path in life, not tied to the family business which might lead to my life being over before I see my 20th birthday. Hey, Mom, Hey, Dad? Go f*ck yourself and your "cause". Whattaya gonna do now? Kill me, or have somebody else do so? Drug me and smuggle me to the Soviet Union? Thanks, Ma, Thanks Pa!"

Paige in full rebellion is the only way to save this deteriorating story arc.

What about: the entire Jennings family has a crisis of confidence, chooses the family unit, defects/whatever equivalent you like, "we're outta here, gonna run cross country/world, see ya KGB."  Clearly IMO, someone of the Jenningses is gonna start this discussion before the series ends.  It's a logical outcropping of family push-pull dynamics.  Maybe replaced by "Hey Center dumbasses!  Your idea to do this regardless of the fact that a myopic monkey could've told you this wouldn't work on our wholly American daughter, whom you had us train up and embed as a wholly loyal American patriot who has no reason to think America is not 100% peachy keen!"

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I think they were using the inspiration very loosely. It's hilarious to remember how Philip wound up that whole Stingers reveal by apologizing for stating the obvious, but if Paige told anyone, including Pastor Tim, they'd go to jail. Only to have Paige still not seem to quite grasp the consequences of things.

...

I mean, Philip and Elizabeth were treated more hideously than Paige has been, with nobody doing much to mitigate their feelings, and their feelings about their country are complicated and still positive (despite a lot of people assuming it's a given that all the Russian characters really all love the USA and consider their own country garbage). As was noted earlier, Paige thinks her mother is avoiding a question when she talks about wanting to serve her country when for Elizabeth that is answering the question.

This is a problem for me though, because I've just realized I was pretty much Paige's age at this point in time, 

I wouldn’t say I was perfect, but as a quiet introvert, I absolutely would not have blabbed like Paige.  I know how to keep my own counsel.  I most certainly wouldn’t have considered Pastor Tim “safe” for no longer than it took me to say “OH SHIT!  I fergot, he tells Alice everything and she blabs it!” 

My world rocked by this announcement?  Yeah, but I’d have tested the air with someone more trustworthy, more circumspect, less of a public figure, and I would’ve put out wee trial balloons to see if I was believed ‘cuz I’m afraid of being judged, not blurted out the entire story.  Granted I had read a lot of fiction older than my years and probably a fair bit of Cold War-themed by that time; but I’m trying to imagine any one of my 80’s peers reacting like “this is just something that people do and discuss for weeks and months with vague curiosity, instead of something I should report outright to the police”, the state of being Communist spies that is, and I’m lulzing.  If this were the 60’s?  maybe.  What about Christopher Boyce and Andrew Daulton Lee, at minimum?  I feel like the 80's were steeped in Cold War paranoia.

I suppose, charitably or with dread, that we could interpret Paige's failure to recognize Elizabeth's "I'm doing this For My Country" as a valid excuse for unquestioned obedience, as a sign that she'll never follow the Party line and do likewise, for either country.  Paige is solipsistic, and has not got the patriotism bug.  She does not recognize it as an answer, because for her it is no answer.