ShadowFacts May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 Where's Bud? 17 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2265736
ottilie May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 (edited) Re all the mortalities in one night, the residents of Portland have appeared sort of unquestioning or slow to notice. Maybe that is why the wesen picked the city. You still wonder whether the leaderless black claw members will reveal themselves, now that they don't have the council to enforce rules against it. Juliette will probably show up to work as a veterinarian again. I wonder if Adalind will go for Renard or Nick. She does look like she redeemed herself. I bet they will send Diana to special ed. Also - Renard doesn't know about Nick's special stick, but Renard will realize that he now is under the direction of Nick and Diana. They will be the real people in charge of the city. Edited May 21, 2016 by ottilie 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2265810
merylinkid May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 This is what sleep does to you: Nick escapes the evil Black Claw precinct and heads straight home. Bonaparte's only means to find him is to force choke Adalind in front of Renard? He hasn't had Nick followed all this time when he went from the precinct to hime every night? He didn't check property records (presuming the place was bought not rented?). He didn't use Hadrian's Wall's database, you know the organization he should took out and had all that techy stuff? Black Claw doesn't deserve to be in power if they can't do basic stuff like this. 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2265822
henripootel May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 Quote Black Claw doesn't deserve to be in power if they can't do basic stuff like this. Their plan seems a bizarre mixture of long-game takeover (start with a lowly mayoral election, work your way up the political ladder) to ham-fisted brown-shirting. Did they really have to start kicking down doors just to get the Book of Grimms? Why not take it slow, bit of recon, bit of burglary? If Black Claw would just dial it back a bit, they'd probably have a much easier time taking over since they wouldn't have all these horrific slaughters to explain. They're basically declaring open war on humanity without an apparatus in place to make such a war a foregone conclusion. I mean I know they have the whole north precinct in hand but that got wiped out by one Grimm. Slow but steady wins the race, Wesen Taliban. 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2265902
chrisvee May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 I assumed the magic stick is a splinter of the true cross. Next season looks drearily predictable with Nick choosing Juliette over Adalind, and Diana being the biggest threat to everyone then the wedge that drives Adalind from the group. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2265946
ShadowFacts May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 36 minutes ago, henripootel said: Their plan seems a bizarre mixture of long-game takeover (start with a lowly mayoral election, work your way up the political ladder) to ham-fisted brown-shirting. Did they really have to start kicking down doors just to get the Book of Grimms? Why not take it slow, bit of recon, bit of burglary? If Black Claw would just dial it back a bit, they'd probably have a much easier time taking over since they wouldn't have all these horrific slaughters to explain. They're basically declaring open war on humanity without an apparatus in place to make such a war a foregone conclusion. I mean I know they have the whole north precinct in hand but that got wiped out by one Grimm. Slow but steady wins the race, Wesen Taliban. I've been bothered by the so-called secret location of the fortress since the beginning--anyone can follow the guy home. Since the Portland PD is crawling with bad wesen, they could have done it easily, and the wesen baddies at Adalind's law office could have done the same with her. I think it was last episode that Renard said to Nick that it was their (Black Claw) turn now, it would be primitive and violent, but at least there would be progress. So they aren't too interested in subtleties, I guess. Plus they do enjoy their carnage. It must have taken some time to totally take over the North precinct, so I take your point about the long-game. Why did Renard or Nick/Hank/Wu not ever suspect so much infiltration? 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266026
Babalooie May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 OTTILIE, along the lines of Diana being in Special Ed, I was thinking myself that she could never really go to school, so who is tutoring her in academics? And I agree with ShadowFacts...WHERE'S BUD? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266116
Darklazr May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 15 hours ago, Enigma X said: Two slightly better episode does not a good show make. I am not okay with making Renard an all-out bad guy, even if they redeem him. My sexy pants Renard's turn to the bad side had better be fixed, pronto! I am holding out that he was playing BC to get entail to be used at a later date. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266205
orza May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 34 minutes ago, Babalooie said: OTTILIE, along the lines of Diana being in Special Ed, I was thinking myself that she could never really go to school, so who is tutoring her in academics? And I agree with ShadowFacts...WHERE'S BUD? Adalind said she was home-schooled. Lots of parents in the real world do that. Maybe Wesen have their own educational materials to supplement the standard curicula parents purchase. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266218
Darklazr May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 12 hours ago, placate said: I'm going to have to read the comic this summer to see if that answers any of my questions. I also hope for a time skip, if not I feel like were going to get six episodes of the scooby gang wandering around dark tunnels while Nick goes berserk on everything because he has a magic stick. I dunno why they made Rosalee pregnant. Bree Turner was pregnant in the 2nd or 3rd season and they just shipped her character out of town. With only 13 episodes next season, I'm thinking they're going to severely cut down on WotW and focus more on the main plot. I have no idea what that plot entails but with these writers, it will probably be stupid. There are over 100 plot holes in this forum, so pick one or just add to the list! 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266272
Lee4U May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 I always figured Juliette would be back and when she was writhing around on the floor that made it even more obvious; I don't mind the character in either form Was the best of the season for me - and Monroe on hearing about pregnancy? So sweet. The kid reminded me of that old movie "Village of Damned" with a little bit of "The Bad Seed" tossed in to make her extra creepy but gotta say, I wouldn't mind a few such dolls for certain people I have to regularly cross paths with.... 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266296
Enigma X May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 Juliette was always just there for me but not annoying. I leave that to others. JuliEve annoyed the shit out of me. I am glad she is gone. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266316
OtterMommy May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 11 hours ago, placate said: I dunno why they made Rosalee pregnant. Bree Turner was pregnant in the 2nd or 3rd season and they just shipped her character out of town. With only 13 episodes next season, I'm thinking they're going to severely cut down on WotW and focus more on the main plot. I have no idea what that plot entails but with these writers, it will probably be stupid. Rosalee is pregnant because the fans wanted it. The creative team has made no secret that they "want to do want the fans want." Unfortunately, the fans are pretty divided on a couple issues so, thanks to this "we'll do whatever you want!" atmosphere they've created (where many fans now expect that the show will do what they want) they are now in an impossible situation where they have no choice but to alienate a large chunk of the viewing audience. That being said, Rosalee being pregnant is probably the least egregious of these moves--as I said, I'm not against Monroe and Rosalee having a baby, it's just that this show's track record with pregnancies and babies is just so atrocious that I'm afraid what they are going to do with this one. 5 hours ago, iMonrey said: Definitely not looking forward to a Nick/Adalind/Juliette triangle. Ugh, me either! I hope they don't "draw this out for dramatic effect" because, well, they suck at that and, frankly, love triangles are tricky things to pull off successfully. 4 hours ago, icemiser69 said: So, all it took was Nick getting wood, to not only heal himself, but also to heal Eve and turn her back into Juliette? Nick is carrying around some magical wood. Heh heh. I laughed at that far more than I want to admit. Apparently I have a 13 year old boy living inside me! 4 hours ago, NeenerNeener said: Or...it might be an actual "Splinter of the True Cross". I'm putting my money on Yggdrasil (see here). This show has already ripped off The Almighty Johnsons so much that, if it were a book, it would be a pretty clear case of plagarism, so why not take this too? Plus, I wouldn't put it past this team to try to do a back-door tie-in with Marvel and Thor: Ragnarok. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266334
Babalooie May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 More questions from an EW.com recap: After Thoughts: Will Renard try to journey back from the dark side? We saw him show a little compassion in this episode when it came to Conrad hurting people. On the other hand, his alienation from the group could make him feel like Black Claw is all he has left and propel him deeper into the group. Now that Black Claw has lost its leader, there is a hole that needs to be filled. How does Adalind plan on reining in Diana’s powers. She killed two people in this episode without giving it a second thought, and she clearly wants her parents together. How will a relationship between Nick and Adalind work out with an emotional child who has too much power for her own good? What is the story behind the miracle stick? We know that it can heal and that it also comes with a warning. I look forward to finding out more on its origins next season. I’m still sticking with it either being a splinter from Jesus’ cross or Hermione’s wand. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266351
OtterMommy May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said: Where's Bud? Apparently Danny Bruno is still part of the show...he shows up in all the cast party pics. So, maybe we'l see more of him in season 6? 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266352
Slovenly Muse May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 "To be continued?" Really? A two-hour finale is not enough to wrap things up? Good. I was hoping we'd get a pregnancy storyline. About time this show started introducing some babies! Ok, the violence was A LOT of fun, but I'm still not seeing the fundamental issues being addressed that make this show so frustrating to watch. Not sure I'll be back next season, but I guess we'll see! One question: If there are enough Wessen in law enforcement to staff an entire precinct, then why all the to-do about how the regular justice system can't understand or apply to Wessen crime? Why use this shadowy Wessen Council who never seems to do anything about the day-to-day Wessen-on-Wessen or Wessen-on-human violence (thereby leaving the "Wessen secret" open to exposure) when there are loads of cops who understand what is happening and why, and could handle things quietly? Why does Team Grimm have to work outside the system to handle Wessen matters when the system seems pretty well equipped to take that on? The show is undermining its own premise, and I can't tell if it means to or not! 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266402
Darklazr May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said: "To be continued?" Really? A two-hour finale is not enough to wrap things up? Good. I was hoping we'd get a pregnancy storyline. About time this show started introducing some babies! Ok, the violence was A LOT of fun, but I'm still not seeing the fundamental issues being addressed that make this show so frustrating to watch. Not sure I'll be back next season, but I guess we'll see! One question: If there are enough Wessen in law enforcement to staff an entire precinct, then why all the to-do about how the regular justice system can't understand or apply to Wessen crime? Why use this shadowy Wessen Council who never seems to do anything about the day-to-day Wessen-on-Wessen or Wessen-on-human violence (thereby leaving the "Wessen secret" open to exposure) when there are loads of cops who understand what is happening and why, and could handle things quietly? Why does Team Grimm have to work outside the system to handle Wessen matters when the system seems pretty well equipped to take that on? The show is undermining its own premise, and I can't tell if it means to or not! Reasons. Lots of plot hole reasons. Reasons! 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266445
rubyred May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 I get why some think that Monroe and Rosalee's baby is fanservice, but IMO theirs is the only baby that should ever have happened on this show. I really think that narratively both Diana and Kelly seriously derailed Grimm, and have turned it into something it was not intended to become based on its potential and implicit promise of earlier seasons. In my headcanon, Diana would have stayed offscreen as part of the aborted Royals subplot (and not been Renard's). But the producers couldn't be bothered to cast someone else and decided to double down on Claire Coffee, so suddenly Adalind has a maternal epiphany. The uterus is a strange and wonderful organ, my friends, capable of converting even the most avaricious hexenbeist into a wesen madonna. And then, even more egregiously, it was beyond them to do something other than write in Coffee's RL pregnancy, thus Kelly is born. Never mind that of the female characters, Adalind was the worst option for depicting motherlove, and was far more interesting a character when she was an unrepentant hexenbiest. Now she's reformed by loooove. So hacky. Meanwhile Monroe and Rosalee manage to forge an authentic-seeming relationship, but because it's now baby #3 on the show it garners more of an eyeroll. But what are they gonna do now? Kill off two kids next season? Despite last night's carnage, this is not a show that kills babies. Just beheads mothers. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266502
placate May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, OtterMommy said: Rosalee is pregnant because the fans wanted it. The creative team has made no secret that they "want to do want the fans want." Unfortunately, the fans are pretty divided on a couple issues so, thanks to this "we'll do whatever you want!" atmosphere they've created (where many fans now expect that the show will do what they want) they are now in an impossible situation where they have no choice but to alienate a large chunk of the viewing audience. If any show writers are reading this, I would like all the hexenbeists to be lectured about how magic doesn't circumvent consent. 43 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said: "To be continued?" Really? A two-hour finale is not enough to wrap things up? At least they don't have the same hubris they had when they ended season 2. Only being renewed for 13 episodes has to sting. Edited May 21, 2016 by placate 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266524
OtterMommy May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, rubyred said: I get why some think that Monroe and Rosalee's baby is fanservice, but IMO theirs is the only baby that should ever have happened on this show. I really think that narratively both Diana and Kelly seriously derailed Grimm, and have turned it into something it was not intended to become based on its potential and implicit promise of earlier seasons. That's the sad part of it all...the Monrosalee pup should be the thing we've all been waiting for, but we've seen how the show can screw up this plotline so now some of us are grumbling.... 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266553
ShadowFacts May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 Quote Will Renard try to journey back from the dark side? We saw him show a little compassion in this episode when it came to Conrad hurting people. On the other hand, his alienation from the group could make him feel like Black Claw is all he has left and propel him deeper into the group. Now that Black Claw has lost its leader, there is a hole that needs to be filled. He could have aborted his journey to the dark side by using his gun on Bonaparte instead of Meisner. I don't want to see him angsting about it after that, and watching Adalind choke, and all the rest. To me it is roughly equivalent to the unforgivability of what Juliette did, but he doesn't have the factor of being involuntarily turned into a hexie like she was. Quote That's the sad part of it all...the Monrosalee pup should be the thing we've all been waiting for, but we've seen how the show can screw up this plotline so now some of us are grumbling.... If there is only half a season left, and they pick up where they left off, I don't think there will be enough time to mess up the newest offspring. Maybe the series will wrap up with the blessed event. And Nick and Juliette as godparents. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266728
MDKNIGHT May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 (edited) I liked a lot of this. I never disliked Juliette and always felt he got a raw deal especially when Adalind got to play house with Nick, so I'm not sorry she may be back to human. I will however miss her abilities. I too liked Wu's smirk when Eve was able to make the two cops draw on each other. Speaking of the cops one the one hand if Renard just won the election how did Black Claw get to completely take over a station? Having individual cops in place is one thing but a whole station? How do you make sure only Wessen black claw people get through police academy and all get put in the same station and that no humans get hired there? OTOH there was something chilling when they march Nick through the station and all the different species he's fought come out. Mixed feelings about Diana. Usually the aged up super being (see Angel, V, the 300 etc) can be lame but so far Diana's blend of good intentions and sociopathy is working for me. Killing dad's side piece to ensure mommy and daddy stay together is deffinately something I'd see a kid with super powers doing and the moment she asked who was hurting her mommy I knew Bonaparte was toast. Too bad I suspect she'll be getting bad advice and work against the good guys soon I laughed at the beginning when we see Monroe and Rosalee's horrified reaction to the election. I kept picturing the same dialogue being spoken if Trump wins. Edited to add. I guess it is just my upbringing but I kind of assumed that Crusader knights would be hiding a shard of the "True Cross" too. Of course it is possible that since this show is ending that it either has nothing to do with that or it will scandalize a few people by having Jesus have been Wessen. We know Hitler the embodiment of evil be Wessen, maybe they will suggest Wessen can be ultimate good too. Edited May 21, 2016 by MDKNIGHT 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266795
Dobian May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 (edited) Oh no, Juliette is back. And I was actually starting to like Eve. I thought it was a good finale, there was never a dull moment. After the way they turned Renard this season, I don't see how he can be anything other than a villain on this show now. Juliette you could argue really wasn't Juliette when she did all her horrible stuff like decapitating Nick's mom. But Renard has always been just Renard. As for Diana, I could see her taking out Boneparte from a mile away, but it was still funny. Exactly what can you do with this kid now, though? She's a freaking sociopath, and every time she opens her mouth it gives me the creeps. Ultimately I was unimpressed with Black Claw when one guy alone in a flat with a gun and a magic stick took out the core of their world domination movement. I hope this is the end of Black Claw, Royals, all that stuff. But I guess maybe not. And so long, Meisner. We hardly knew you. Edited May 21, 2016 by Dobian 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266807
neuromom May 21, 2016 Share May 21, 2016 1 hour ago, MDKNIGHT said: I laughed at the beginning when we see Monroe and Rosalee's horrified reaction to the election. I kept picturing the same dialogue being spoken if Trump wins. Lol! And I was also thinking that if Clinton wins, maybe we will see her go full on Hexenbeist - because that's how I picture her. (Actually I picture her as Satans spawn, but Hexie is close enough) And how long is Renard going to last as mayor, what with his city becoming a war zone on the night he was elected. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2266992
Corvino May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 Diana was using "CORPSE BRIDE" DOLLS for her voodoo!!! Well, I'm not sure about the bride doll, but that male doll was definitely Johnny Depp at his most waiflike and adorable. I want those dolls, which I would NEVER use the way Diana tried to at the beginning. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2267244
Texasmom1970 May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 13 hours ago, icemiser69 said: So, all it took was Nick getting wood, to not only heal himself, but also to heal Eve and turn her back into Juliette? Nick is carrying around some magical wood. Giggled when I read this and now mind stuck in gutter, apparently I still have some teenager in me. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2267650
Darklazr May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 Renard told Adalind that they were not in control of the situation with BC and had to learn to live with it or else. I think Renard wanted his kid back and nothing else really mattered. Would Renard have joined BC if he had told Nick to find his mother in s4 and return his child? I don't think so. Adalind wanted Diana back starting at the end of s3 and Renard's interest was dependent on the Royal's and now BC! Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2267732
Darklazr May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 What happened to Bud and Alexander?! 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2267762
OtterMommy May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 Wait a minute...we got through this whole season without anyone giving Adalind a raw tomato? NOW I'm disappointed.... 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2267763
Noneofyourbusiness May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 21 hours ago, OtterMommy said: Waaaay back in season 2, Monroe and Rosalee went through all the possibilities and, for them to have a kid, it could be a fuchsbau OR a blutbad OR "something else." Not quite. The conversation went like this: Hank Griffin: Let's pretend I understood what you just said. What if both parents are Wesen, but different kinds? Rosalee Calvert: You mean like a Grudverschiedene situation, like us [Gestures to her and Monroe] Rosalee Calvert: ? Nick Burkhardt: Well, we don't mean to pry. Hank Griffin: Yeah, we do. Monroe: Well, then you're looking at a Vorherrscher. But, as long as it's healthy, we don't care. Vorherrscher roughly means "to dominate". So presumably, Monroe means it's a toss up whichever side dominates. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2267829
bentley May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 We have a magic stick with amazing healing powers. Why did no one attempt to use it on Meisner and the other HW people who were killed? Who's to say it doesn't have powers of resurrection? They never even tried. The only one who gets the special stick is Eve?? Or I should say, Juliette, since the show runners apparently do not know how to quit Bitsie Tulloch. I'm not sure who they think is joyfully anticipating the heartwarming reunion of Juliette and Nick. For sure, it isn't me. And now we're back to the slightly confused, empty and wooden acting style that characterized her Juliette years. Now with memory loss and plausible deniability of anything she perpetrated upon Nick and company. Hooray, said no one at all. Thoroughly enjoyed the episode until the end, between Meisner's death and Juliette's comeback. Renard, who I've always enjoyed as a gray character who was mostly on Nick's side, is now dead to me. Standing idly by while watching Meisner die, Adalind choke, and Nick almost die....there's no coming back from that. Even towards the end I had hopes that he was playing a long con on Black Claw. I think they've ruined his character by this late turn of events. Loved the Wesen police force. Wouldn't have minded a few episodes of them, rather than introducing and wiping them out all in one night. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2267861
neuromom May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Darklazr said: What happened to Bud and Alexander?! And Elizabeth. You mean to tell me that BC could find Diana when she COULDNT? She could've returned to Portland to f*** up Bonaparte. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2267952
PugLoaf May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 We spent a good chunk of the episode hoping they wouldn't bring regJuliette back but no such luck for me! I just can't with her. I could deal with it a bit when she had power (but still made all the same acting choices/faces as when she was plain old occasional vet) because it was entertaining to see the other side's WTF faces when she popped up but now it looks like they are bringing them back together with the Twig of Destiny as the catalyst. I knew no good could come of the twig. I hope Munroe burned the Grimm genealogy book but the anvils everyone kept dropping about how important it was make that seems unlikely. Yay for Diana finally whacking Bonaparte but as powerful as she is I find it hard to believe she didn't know when Boney was hurting/threatening her to begin with. One thing I still wonder about is Diana's long game as some mentioned. She was with Nick's Mom when they beheaded her, which it seems she easily could have stopped. Then in the finale Adalind mentions how Nick's mom took care of her and Diana is all I remember and willing to send the message. So, you liked her enough to send a message to Nick but you wanted to end up with Black Claw so you let them take her head? (It's possible I missed something but it seemed Diana was not displeased about going with them in the chopper post head removal but as a baby she protected and liked Nick's Mom as I recall) 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2268173
Clanstarling May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 20 hours ago, OtterMommy said: Rosalee is pregnant because the fans wanted it. The creative team has made no secret that they "want to do want the fans want." Unfortunately, the fans are pretty divided on a couple issues so, thanks to this "we'll do whatever you want!" atmosphere they've created (where many fans now expect that the show will do what they want) they are now in an impossible situation where they have no choice but to alienate a large chunk of the viewing audience. This type of pandering to fans tends to create the whipsaw, nonsensical plotlines with inconsistent canons and character development that we've seen not only in this show, but in many others. It's good to have difference of opinion, and it's great to see whether or not what you're doing is being received in the way you intended, but there's a difference between thinking "that would be a good addition to what we want to do" to "okay, let's wipe out all of these things that were the basis of our show and go in this direction because we'll get more viewers." There's healthy growth, and there's cancer. I haven't been enjoying this show for a long time now, but I will admit that at least this one moved along at a fair pace, with decent timing. I was hoping Adalind would do a Princess Leia vs Vader when it came to the address of the fortress and give the wrong address, but actually now that I think about it, that would be pointless, she and her kids are still hostages. Now that Bonaparte's dead, can she remove the ring? I was mildly saddened that Renard killing Bonaparte was Diana's doing rather than his own choice. I haven't liked the turn they've taken with Renard, but at least they've given Sasha more to do. There were a few things that bugged (so yeah, you buy/rent a fortress, but the elevator doesn't have an off switch you can get to when you're under siege?). But mostly, pretty decent. Not a fan of Juliet - have never been since day one. But I've given up getting worked up about it. So I'm wondering, if the magic stick starts you up multiple times, do you eventually become immortal? 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2268439
merylinkid May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 Quote QUOTE Now with memory loss and plausible deniability of anything she perpetrated upon Nick and company. I think it is pretty clear that all of the bad things that Juliette has done are flooding back to her in memory form. I think she is in complete shock, and she understandably is having problems with trying to understand all of it. Except when Juliette did all those bad things like burn the Grimmebago, and set up Nick's mom to be killed, along with massacreing half the neighborhood, she was still Juliette. She knew damn well what she was doing. Her personality, ego, id, whatever were fully in order at the time. It was only when she became Eve that they were supressed. She should have no problem understanding them. It's what she did as Eve that might be confusing her, but there is no doubt she fully knew what was happening at the time she did anything pre-Eve. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2268451
orza May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 It's not so much remembering what she did as a hexenbeist, it being overwhelmed by the gravity of her actions and the repercussions going forward now that she is herself again. Kinda like getting drunk, losing all inhibitions and making a fool of yourself and then waking up the next morning and realizing what a jackass you were and how will you face everyone, only much, much worse. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2268507
OtterMommy May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 5 minutes ago, orza said: It's not so much remembering what she did as a hexenbeist, it being overwhelmed by the gravity of her actions and the repercussions going forward now that she is herself again. Kinda like getting drunk, losing all inhibitions and making a fool of yourself and then waking up the next morning and realizing what a jackass you were and how will you face everyone, only much, much worse. Replying in the Juliette thread.... Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2268514
ottilie May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 "And Elizabeth. You mean to tell me that BC could find Diana when she COULDNT?" Good point. Maybe she will return next season when Renard remains the new mayor but is under the direction of the grimms again. I liked how Monroe beat up Tony the hacker, but you only heard it through the door. very fierce. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2268538
Blue Plastic May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 On 5/21/2016 at 9:02 PM, merylinkid said: Sooo, all it took to take out the greatest hexenbeist ever was a .... zauerbeist? Really? Yeah, that threw me off a bit because I thought in a previous episode they had hinted that zauerbeists didn't have much or any magic, unlike their female counterparts the Hexenbiests. But now they're saying Renard doesn't have magic simply because he's only half? I really thought that full zauerbiest guy was supposed to be some other species of magic creature because his face, although corpse-like, didn't look much like the other Hexen/zauer faces do when woged. Now it looks like "Juliette" will be back (or at least it sure looks that way), which sets us up for a romantic triangle next season, I suppose. I don't care for that. Plus I was JUST starting to find "Eve" useful (even if the way she came into being was beyond stupid) and not completely tooth-grittingly annoying...so NOW they get rid of her. On 5/21/2016 at 9:18 PM, tpel said: And we did, finally, moments before his death, learn definitively that Meisner was not wesen. Renard suggested that Black Claw might have a place for Meisner, and Meisner counters that Black Claw is wesen only, indicating that Meisner would not be included. Renard says that maybe an exception could be made. Bonaparte says something like "No exceptions." So Meisner was, as I hoped, just a badass human. That's the way I took it. They said Nick, being a Grimm, was "one of us" but referred to Meissner as "not one of us" so I took that to mean no Wesen, no Grimm, just a regular human. Which is fine but really makes me wonder: How did Meissner find out about Wesen? What motivated him to get involved in The Resistance and then HW? How did he fight off so many Wesen for so long while being bodily underpowered, no special tricks up his sleeve, etc? The only one that took him down was one that had magic, so he was pretty undefeatable for a regular guy. How did he get control over Hexen-Juliette like that and turn her into "Eve" without magic of his own? Yet he couldn't defeat the full Zauerbiest guy. Too bad Meissner couldn't have taught Hank some of his survival techniques. I was worried about Wu becoming a werewolf but it came in handy. I really overall liked the episode. It came out a lot better than I would have thought. Had you asked me at the beginning of the season when I was so put off about Juliette/Eve, I would have said this year's finale would be bound to be crap. But even though I still think Juliette/Eve was stupid and am hesitant to see how they will handle Juliette now, I have to say this finale was pretty good and WAY better than last season's. I will be interested to see what traits Baby Monrosalee will have, but other than that I hope they don't turn it into a baby-baby-baby plot and put Rosalee in some kind of dangerous situation right when she's getting ready to deliver. We're pretty baby-heavy already. Now I can see Nick took every precaution when equipping his pad. He even got rolling kitchen appliances that double as portable shields yet are sturdy enough to roll into and knock down/run over any attacker! 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2268975
formerlyfreedom May 22, 2016 Author Share May 22, 2016 Just a note, now that the season is over - please take speculation about Season Six over to the speculation topic, The Grimm Wishlist, and keep the conversation here to the episode. We have gone ahead and pinned that topic to the top of the page for easy finding! 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2269036
DrSparkles May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 I did NOT know there was supposed to be a major death this week and was nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof about Monroe the whole time!!!! Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2269048
Blue Plastic May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 8 hours ago, PugLoaf said: We spent a good chunk of the episode hoping they wouldn't bring regJuliette back but no such luck for me! I just can't with her. I could deal with it a bit when she had power (but still made all the same acting choices/faces as when she was plain old occasional vet) because it was entertaining to see the other side's WTF faces when she popped up but now it looks like they are bringing them back together with the Twig of Destiny as the catalyst. I knew no good could come of the twig. Maybe that's what the writing on that cloth wrapped around The Stick meant. I think it mentioned something about The Stick being miraculous but also dangerous...yeah, so dangerous that it brings "regular Juliette" back, along with the angst that will ensue! Just kidding...sort of. Good point everyone had about the carnage and wipeout at two Portland police stations. That kind of thing would not go unnoticed, but I suppose the show is never going to address it. I could handwave some of the other newsworthy events that the show never addressed, but the meltdown at two police stations is kind of hard to ignore! I guess we're supposed to imagine that the news was covering it but it wasn't shown. But the populace would likely be worried about such an occurrence and we didn't see that, either. It is kind of difficult to believe that not only are there enough Wesen in Portland to take over an entire police station (perhaps more), but most of those Wesen in existence are evil or easily corrupted. Too bad. Also Hadrian's Wall was easily infiltrated, huh? I never got the idea that there were that many people working there. All the times Nick went there, I don't remember seeing any background actors to simulate a busy and bustling hub of activity, just Truble, Meissner, and Eve standing around looking at computer screens. But now we see lots of dead people lying around after Black Claw attacked. If there were that many employees, surely some of them had some weapons or special skills..? I too had hoped that Nick's zombie powers were back when he quickly recovered from his gunshot wounds. I had completely forgotten about The Stick. I like the plot potential of The Stick well enough, I guess, but I would have liked to see some zombie powers. They made a nice potential addition to a Grimm's repertoire but the writers just dropped them, alas. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2269115
kminfinity May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 I could write a long post damning with faint praise. I guess it boils down to the finale being a lot better than I feared. I did like some of it - the bad ass fighting; fast paced plotting; some cool scenes and events, with Monrosalee's pregnany at the top of the list; I also really liked that Diana took out Bonaparte, but am a little leery seriously worried the writers won't explore the use of power with Diana in any sensible fashion. On 5/21/2016 at 2:53 PM, Slovenly Muse said: One question: If there are enough Wessen in law enforcement to staff an entire precinct, then why all the to-do about how the regular justice system can't understand or apply to Wessen crime? Why use this shadowy Wessen Council who never seems to do anything about the day-to-day Wessen-on-Wessen or Wessen-on-human violence (thereby leaving the "Wessen secret" open to exposure) when there are loads of cops who understand what is happening and why, and could handle things quietly? Why does Team Grimm have to work outside the system to handle Wessen matters when the system seems pretty well equipped to take that on? The show is undermining its own premise, and I can't tell if it means to or not! This is so true. The Black Claw could have been a good, nuanced subarc exploring righteously upset Wessen who feel compelled to join despite hating the leaders and their global dominance games. Given that Nick is the first Grimm who seems to have understood the idea that being Wessen doesn't require an automatic death sentence, the Wessen community at large definitely has some justification for wanting change. What a waste of good plot material. The frustration with this show for me continues to be that the characters, big ideas, and myths are so creative and filled with so much potential, yet it all ends in such epic fail territory. Is there really a big Juliette fanbase? really? geez. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2269258
Darklazr May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 21 hours ago, bentley said: We have a magic stick with amazing healing powers. Why did no one attempt to use it on Meisner and the other HW people who were killed? Who's to say it doesn't have powers of resurrection? They never even tried. The only one who gets the special stick is Eve?? Or I should say, Juliette, since the show runners apparently do not know how to quit Bitsie Tulloch. I'm not sure who they think is joyfully anticipating the heartwarming reunion of Juliette and Nick. For sure, it isn't me. And now we're back to the slightly confused, empty and wooden acting style that characterized her Juliette years. Now with memory loss and plausible deniability of anything she perpetrated upon Nick and company. Hooray, said no one at all. Thoroughly enjoyed the episode until the end, between Meisner's death and Juliette's comeback. Renard, who I've always enjoyed as a gray character who was mostly on Nick's side, is now dead to me. Standing idly by while watching Meisner die, Adalind choke, and Nick almost die....there's no coming back from that. Even towards the end I had hopes that he was playing a long con on Black Claw. I think they've ruined his character by this late turn of events. Loved the Wesen police force. Wouldn't have minded a few episodes of them, rather than introducing and wiping them out all in one night. Reasons. Let's save not dead Juliette Eve, but leave Meisner and the other HW folks on the floor. This show has rotten priorities at times! 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2269354
Darklazr May 22, 2016 Share May 22, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, neuromom said: And Elizabeth. You mean to tell me that BC could find Diana when she COULDNT? She could've returned to Portland to f*** up Bonaparte. There were clearly HW folks that were moles that turned in information to BC. Otherwise, how would BC know all about the folks at HW? I think there were some fans miffed at how Elisabeth looked the same age as Renard and was tired of shows not hiring age appropriate actors. 13 hours ago, PugLoaf said: We spent a good chunk of the episode hoping they wouldn't bring regJuliette back but no such luck for me! I just can't with her. I could deal with it a bit when she had power (but still made all the same acting choices/faces as when she was plain old occasional vet) because it was entertaining to see the other side's WTF faces when she popped up but now it looks like they are bringing them back together with the Twig of Destiny as the catalyst. I knew no good could come of the twig. I hope Munroe burned the Grimm genealogy book but the anvils everyone kept dropping about how important it was make that seems unlikely. Yay for Diana finally whacking Bonaparte but as powerful as she is I find it hard to believe she didn't know when Boney was hurting/threatening her to begin with. One thing I still wonder about is Diana's long game as some mentioned. She was with Nick's Mom when they beheaded her, which it seems she easily could have stopped. Then in the finale Adalind mentions how Nick's mom took care of her and Diana is all I remember and willing to send the message. So, you liked her enough to send a message to Nick but you wanted to end up with Black Claw so you let them take her head? (It's possible I missed something but it seemed Diana was not displeased about going with them in the chopper post head removal but as a baby she protected and liked Nick's Mom as I recall) A lot of the writing for Diana is just plain dumb. This supposedly powerful kid is listening in on conversations and she would rather have her parents play kissy faces and hold hands, versus realizing that they are all in danger due to Conrad and she does not kill his crazy ass and his goons outside the house?! Really, show? We know Nick was in contact with his mother via email and not once has the show bothered to show the connection between this little girl and Nick. Nick also had that mind connection with Adalind and he was not in the loop with Diana and Juliette?! Right! Edited May 22, 2016 by Darklazr Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2269367
OtterMommy May 23, 2016 Share May 23, 2016 1 hour ago, kminfinity said: Is there really a big Juliette fanbase? really? geez. There is a Juliette fanbase...how big it actually is, I don't know. From what I've seen online (mainly Twitter, Facebook, and SpoilerTV), whenever someone posts something positive about Juliette, they are shut down immediately--usually by someone who is proudly an Adalind fan. Neither one of these characters are so well crafted to warrant such an online war, but whatever. I'm not sure why it is impossible to just accept that some people like one or the other character, or both, or neither.... 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2269409
kminfinity May 23, 2016 Share May 23, 2016 1 hour ago, OtterMommy said: .... whenever someone posts something positive about Juliette, they are shut down immediately--usually by someone who is proudly an Adalind fan. Neither one of these characters are so well crafted to warrant such an online war, but whatever. I'm not sure why it is impossible to just accept that some people like one or the other character, or both, or neither.... Oh I am perfectly okay with people liking one character or another, (Hey I was fine with the sliver of Riley fans :P ) I just am surprised that there's enough of them to sway writers and plots. Out of curiosity, does PTV get the numbers of page views and attention that would attract the attention of TPTB of the shows? (Grimm or otherwise) 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2269676
OtterMommy May 23, 2016 Share May 23, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, kminfinity said: Oh I am perfectly okay with people liking one character or another, (Hey I was fine with the sliver of Riley fans :P ) I just am surprised that there's enough of them to sway writers and plots. Out of curiosity, does PTV get the numbers of page views and attention that would attract the attention of TPTB of the shows? (Grimm or otherwise) I don't know about PTV, but I know TPTB pay attention to FB and Twitter. I think if they were going to pay attention to a general fansite, PTV would be the most likely. ETA: My comment about people not being able to accept that others like other characters wasn't directed at you....;-D Edited May 23, 2016 by OtterMommy Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2269973
snarktini May 23, 2016 Share May 23, 2016 When Adalind and Renard started ripping each other's clothes off, I thought wow the writers are REALLY trolling us with yet another round of magical non-consent. It's not something that's outraged me, but every time they repeat it the red flag rises a little higher. Someone on the writing staff has issues. Did like badass Nick showing off all his weapons skills and taking out a small army solo. So kind of them to enter and attack one or two at a time! When Diana astral projected (or whatever that is) to Nick, they said "Is that Diana?" "It has to be." Except for her not being anywhere near the right age. My Tivo has been forgetting to record Grimm a lot lately. It may be smarter than I am. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2270491
rubyred May 23, 2016 Share May 23, 2016 Oh I'm calling it: the baby will be born, amidst terror and wacky hijinks, in episode 13. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/43324-s05e21-beginning-of-the-end-part-one-s05e22-beginning-of-the-end-part-two/page/2/#findComment-2271608
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