S06.E04: Book of the Stranger

[Miles]

Why in the hell were the dothraki behind the temple bowing? There is no way that they saw Dany from that angle. Were they just figuring "well everyone else is doing it, might as well."?

Also I'm just annoyed by Ramsay now. I can't even bring up the energy to hate the little fucker. It was fun to hate Joffrey, but now I'm just tired. I wish Osha would have been slightly faster.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Miles

[nodorothyparker]

Theon told Ramsay way back in season 3, I think, that he had faked the killing of the Stark boys because they escaped and he could never find them.  I don't remember Osha's name specifically coming up, but it seems likely considering he was being tortured and doing a lot of babbling at that point.

As bored as I am with everything Meereen since we know none of it is likely to matter in end game anyway and the only thing it's really shown is that Dany isn't an effective ruler, pyrotechnics aside, that's how delighted I suddenly find myself with the Northern crew.  I've never been a huge Stark fan but that's story I now find myself caring the most about and I love all the disparate characters that are coming together for it.

Edited May 16, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[cambridgeguy]

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Did we know that Ramsey knew Bran and Rickon were alive?  That was a total reveal to me -- when he said Theon was a great talker and spilled the beans about how B&R were saved and fled.  And who saved them.  *Stab.*  So I saw the stab coming but not the build-up....that's kind of a significant fact, isn't it, that Ramsey knew B&R were alive?  

Yes, it came up when Roose returned to Winterfell after the Red Wedding.  That was why one of those Bolton guys (the one Hodor killed, I think) was there when Jon attacked Craster's Keep. 

Aside from trying to snap Jon out of his whining I'm not sure why Sansa thinks that Jon is the one the North will rally to when she's the trueborn daughter of Ned Stark.  Regardless, they'll need the Vale troops since the three biggest houses (Bolton, Karstark, Umber) hate the Starks.

Say, isn't Jorah supposed to be some awesome fighter?  He got his ass kicked there.

[Tikichick]

Always felt Sansa's relationship(non) with Jon was her response to her mother's cues about him.  Once everything else has been swept away from her she now sees clearly how idyllic her boring, backwater life far from court at Winterfell was -- and how wonderful all the people there were.  That informed her reaction to Jon now, and he couldn't help but recognize it and welcome it.

Cersei and Jamie walking into the small council meeting felt like the lead-up to a plot to me.  It's not a coincidence IMO that the Tyrells will be both footing the bill for and taking all of the risk in an attempt to eliminate the High Sparrow and his followers -- unless you count Uncle Kevan possibly losing his precious son that is.   I'm quite sure Cersei and Jamie have done that math.  The only wildcard will be the Queen of Thorns and whether or not she's onto Cersei's plans.

[Alapaki]

I had to take some time to process my thoughts on last night.

My overall emotion is one of frustration.  Mainly because this was the typical "moving the pieces into place for what's next" mid-season episode.  But also because of what was left unsaid.

1) What did the High Sparrow tell Tommen?  Was it about Margery's walk-of-shame?  If so, did the High Sparrow lie to Tommen?  From the Margery/Loras scene it appears that the Margery has not been broken.  Is he trying to provoke a showdown with the Crown's forces?  Does he think he can definitely win that armed conflict?

2) Tyrion would be smart enough to know that any promise to gradually abolish slavery in Slavers' Bay had better be backed-up with a pretty strong "or else".  Sure, Dany has dragons.  But is she really going to bother to come back to Slavers' Bay in 7 years to enforce that bargain?  And in the interim, the Dragons are not exactly precision-strike weapons.  They're sledgehammers instead of scalpels.  There's no practical was for Dany to unleash the Dragons on the Slavers or Wise Masters without taking out a whole lot of slavers and peasants along with them.

3) I agree with the sentiment upthread that returning the Iron Islands (especially under the impression that Balon was still alive) was really not in character for Theon.  He can't have any realistic expectation of being accepted (even Prodigal Son style) by Balon and the Iron Islanders.  At this point, Theon seems more motivated by guilt, shame and the need for redemption.  The only place he could realistically get that would be in the North, either as part of the NW, or fighting alongside whomever bands together to try to retake Winterfell.

[Paws]

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Dany. Obviously gang rapists are scum, but she'd decided to kill them all before she was threatened. Unless she sent a telepathic signal to her people, it wasn't about being threatened, it was about not wanting to be a crone.

They were either going to imprison her for the rest of her life (make her stay with the Dosh Khaleen) or gang rape her, at BEST she was going to be sold into slavery. I'm pretty sure she knew that before she ever set foot in the temple and had Jorio bar the doors.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Paws

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Paws said:

They were either going to imprison her for the rest of her life (make her stay with the Dosh Khaleen) or gang rape her, at BEST she was going to be sold into slavery. I'm pretty sure she knew that before she ever set foot in the temple and had Jorio bar the doors.

Agreed.  Bottom line she knew she was a prisoner and if they had their way she would never be free again.  IMO she had the right to take her destiny into her own hands and fight back.  She fought back with the only weapon at her disposal. 

[Alapaki]

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Cersei and Jamie walking into the small council meeting felt like the lead-up to a plot to me.  It's not a coincidence IMO that the Tyrells will be both footing the bill for and taking all of the risk in an attempt to eliminate the High Sparrow and his followers -- unless you count Uncle Kevan possibly losing his precious son that is.   I'm quite sure Cersei and Jamie have done that math.  The only wildcard will be the Queen of Thorns and whether or not she's onto Cersei's plans.

As long as the High Sparrow holds Margery, I think Olenna's interests are aligned with Cersei's expressed-interests.  IIRC, the book left off with Mace and his Tyrell army trying to capture Storm's End, but presumably on the way back upon hearing that Margery had been imprisoned.  The difference between Olenna and Cersei, of course, is that Cersei is hoping/expecting Margery/Loras to be "accidentally" killed rather than rescued.  Olenna (and fuck you auto-correct for continually changing that to Glenna) would be wise to that, however.  

I do think this really is a point where the Crown cannot afford to be made to look weak by allowing the Queen to be held prisoner.  Cersie's not wrong about that.  However, the show hasn't really demonstrated how uncertain the outcome of that battle would be.

Otherwise, with respect to the High Sparrow, IMO his hypocrisy has nothing to do with his expressed redistribution-of-wealth politics.  The ostensible reason for the High Sparrow asking for the re-arming of the Faith Militant was that Septons and Septas were (allegedly) being slaughtered by bandits out in the Riverlands as a result of the chaos and destruction wrought by the war.  He showed up at Kings Landing with a cart full of their bones.  His argument was that if the Crown can't protect them, let them protect themselves.  Now, once armed, instead of seeing to the defense of those Septons and Septas, he's turned on the Crown.  His monologue to Margery showed that he is just as power-hungry now as he ever was.  He's just clothing his lust-for-power in religion instead of commerce.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

As long as the High Sparrow holds Margery, I think Olenna's interests are aligned with Cersei's expressed-interests.  IIRC, the book left off with Mace and his Tyrell army trying to capture Storm's End, but presumably on the way back upon hearing that Margery had been imprisoned.  The difference between Olenna and Cersei, of course, is that Cersei is hoping/expecting Margery/Loras to be "accidentally" killed rather than rescued.  Olenna (and fuck you auto-correct for continually changing that to Glenna) would be wise to that, however.  

I do think this really is a point where the Crown cannot afford to be made to look weak by allowing the Queen to be held prisoner.  Cersie's not wrong about that.  However, the show hasn't really demonstrated how uncertain the outcome of that battle would be.

Otherwise, with respect to the High Sparrow, IMO his hypocrisy has nothing to do with his expressed redistribution-of-wealth politics.  The ostensible reason for the High Sparrow asking for the re-arming of the Faith Militant was that Septons and Septas were (allegedly) being slaughtered by bandits out in the Riverlands as a result of the chaos and destruction wrought by the war.  He showed up at Kings Landing with a cart full of their bones.  His argument was that if the Crown can't protect them, let them protect themselves.  Now, once armed, instead of seeing to the defense of those Septons and Septas, he's turned on the Crown.  His monologue to Margery showed that he is just as power-hungry now as he ever was.  He's just clothing his lust-for-power in religion instead of commerce.

Completely agree that the High Sparrow has his own agenda.  Will be interesting to see it revealed.

IMO the battle of Kings Landing is going to deliver some more "Lannister gold".

[Ottis]

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I'm amazed at how many people would have preferred a Drogon's ex machina over that truly great scene where Dany regains power and confidence by herself, for herself !

I think the issue is the unbelievability of what we saw. So all you have to do to defeat a dozen or more alpha Dothraki is ... knock over the burning torches? Because the fire ... magically spreads exactly where you need it to? In record time (and this had never been a problem before at the retired khaleesi place, I mean, at any moment you might burn down the house)? And none of the warriors have a clear shot at you? And then you push over each one and it continues to protect you while the men just run around in circles? And at the end, the last one you push takes out the last guy?

I realize we are talking relative believability when the alternative to that sequence is to have a dragon rescue you, but still ... 

That said, I'm enjoying this season. It feels like it is moving along faster than past season, and you can start to see the forces of good coming together to ready the battle against the ice zombies.

[nodorothyparker]

I do wonder what new longwinded title Dany is going to give herself out of this to add to all the rest.  The Unburnt 2.0, The Firestarter and Killer of Khals?

[Alapaki]

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I think the issue is the unbelievability of what we saw. So all you have to do to defeat a dozen or more alpha Dothraki is ... knock over the burning torches? Because the fire ... magically spreads exactly where you need it to? In record time (and this had never been a problem before at the retired khaleesi place, I mean, at any moment you might burn down the house)? And none of the warriors have a clear shot at you? And then you push over each one and it continues to protect you while the men just run around in circles? And at the end, the last one you push takes out the last guy?

I'll second that, and add that isn't the "Temple" really just a thatch hut?  D&D did a decent job of reinforcing the fact that none of the Khals would be armed.  But I'd think that at some point the structure would've been weakened enough that at least one of the Khals could've forced himself through the flaming wall to get outside, tuck, duck and roll to extinguish himself, and gather his Khalasar to his side.

I can buy the crowd's being completely terrified to see Dany walk out unscathed.  But I'd think that would express itself more in their running around trying to get away from her than their instant submission.  

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Ottis said:

I think the issue is the unbelievability of what we saw. So all you have to do to defeat a dozen or more alpha Dothraki is ... knock over the burning torches? Because the fire ... magically spreads exactly where you need it to? In record time (and this had never been a problem before at the retired khaleesi place, I mean, at any moment you might burn down the house)? And none of the warriors have a clear shot at you? And then you push over each one and it continues to protect you while the men just run around in circles? And at the end, the last one you push takes out the last guy?

I realize we are talking relative believability when the alternative to that sequence is to have a dragon rescue you, but still ... 

That said, I'm enjoying this season. It feels like it is moving along faster than past season, and you can start to see the forces of good coming together to ready the battle against the ice zombies.

I wouldn't underestimate that storyline playing out on screen that way for budgetary reasons.  It's unlikely the possibility of dragon rescue wasn't on the writers' minds.  It's highly likely they have certain episodes budgeted for major CGI expenditures and this one didn't make the cut.  There was also a loud outcry last season about how women are depicted on the show storylines, so writing it in a way where it's Dany's personal powers that overpower the Khols and free herself was also a nice placation of an outraged segment of viewers.  I think this episode may have been intended to soothe those particular troubled waters in many ways.  

Of course the final scene was no doubt their not so very subtle message -- done under the plausible deniability clause where it was "storyline appropriate". 

[Alapaki]

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There was also a loud outcry last season about how women are depicted on the show storylines, so writing it in a way where it's Dany's personal powers that overpower the Khols and free herself was also a nice placation of an outraged segment of viewers.  I think this episode may have been intended to soothe those particular troubled waters in many ways.

I agree that whenever it comes to the Dragons, the budget is driving the narrative.

Although, isn't it completely a D&D move to decide "Okay, we'll give Dany her agency.  But we have to get another shot of those tits!", thinking they'd made titty-ade out of lemons?

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

I am worried about Tyrion. I think he is out of his depth. Sometimes politics as usual just doesn't work and I am not sure he sees that. This doesn't seem to be a place where politics will work. They will give them 7 years and then they will not give the slaves up.

Tyrion's line that people in Westeros make money without slaves and that he grew-up richer than any of the Masters was pointless unless he knows about a heretofore unknown gold mine in Slaver's Bay.  His self-congratulation about the absence of slavery in Westeros shows that Tyrion, like most of the Westerosi high born, fails to appreciate that there's little substantive difference between the lives of the peasantry of the Seven Kingdoms and the slaves of Essos.  How, after all, would Tywin have reacted if the mine workers decided to quit or go on strike?

This is also the first time that Tyrion is exercising power without the benefit of having Tywin as his net.  All in all it reminded me very much of a scene from Season 3

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Locke: You think you're the smartest man there is. That everyone alive has to bow and scrape and lick your boots.

Jaime: My father ...

Locke: And if you get in any trouble, all you've got to do is say "my father" and that's it, all your troubles are gone. 

Jaime: Don't. 

Locke: Have you got something to say? Careful. You don't want to say the wrong thing.  You're nothing without your daddy, and your daddy ain't here. Never forget that. Here, this should help you remember.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Constantinople

[mac123x]

What's the High Sparrow's end game with Marge and Loras?  It seems like he's using cult conversion techniques (malnutrition, sleep deprivation, continual sermonizing) like he's Jim Jones, but he still intends to put them on trial?  I guess he's expecting that after he's broken them, they'll testify against themselves and this will accomplish... what? 

Finally, is it wrong that I immediately recognized that EC wasn't using a body double? She has very distinctive boobs. I'm sorry, I'll leave now.

I initially thought it was a body double, but that was because of the mediocre shot compositing with the flames behind her.  I could see the green-screen edges around her face and especially her hair.

[Alapaki]

Quote

 

Tyrion's line that people in Westeros make money without slaves and that he grew-up richer than any of the Masters was pointless unless he knows about a heretofore unknown gold mine in Slaver's Bay.  His self-congratulation about the absence of slavery in Westeros shows that Tyrion, like most of the Westerosi high born, fails to appreciate that there's little substantive difference between the lives of the peasantry of the Seven Kingdoms and the slaves of Essos.  How, after all, would Tywin have reacted if the mine workers decided to quit or go on strike?

This is also the first time that Tyrion is exercising power without the benefit of having Tywin as his net.

 

I agree that, based on his words, Tyrion is misreading the Masters.

But Varys is usually smart enough to know the play.  So I think Tyrion and Varys really don't care about the slaves or the freed-people of Mereen.  After all, his argument boiled down to trying to convince convert those folks from slave-slaves to wage-slaves.  Rather, their fight, and Dany's fight, is in Westerns.  Maybe they're just looking for a way to chill things out in Mereen until Dany returns, at which point they believe they can convince her to head West and not look back.  They may not realize how long how many others have been trying unsuccessfully to get her to do just that.

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I agree that whenever it comes to the Dragons, the budget is driving the narrative.

Although, isn't it completely a D&D move to decide "Okay, we'll give Dany her agency.  But we have to get another shot of those tits!", thinking they'd made titty-ade out of lemons?

Precisely what I meant by my last sentence about their message of the last scene/image -- the one you didn't quote.

[Chris24601]

So another log to throw on the Jon/Sansa shipper fire is that apparently the fur cloak she's wearing in the fireplace scene is Jon's Winterfell cloak. Given all the symbolism involving cloaks in Westerosi weddings and taking with EVERYTHING else loaded into that scene its a thing that makes you go "Hmmmm."

[Alapaki]

I don't know what the High Sparrow's end-game is either.  

It's possible that he's someone significant from the past seeking revenge on the Lannisters.  If so, you'd think someone would recognize him.  But then again he doesn't seem to be keeping the same high public profile as the prior High Septons.  Jaime and Cersei might be too young to recognize someone of the HS's age.  Olenna would be old enough, but maybe she was not in the loop on that particular past conflict?

It's possible that he really does want to reassert the power of the Church vis a vis the Crown and return the Chuch to a position of power rather than a rubber-stamp that merely validates the Crown's prerogatives.  

And if it's the latter, it might be the result of an authentic sense of "righteousness", or it might be the result of simple personal ambition.

I got the sense from the books that the High Sparrow and Faith Militant were introduced by Martin as another example of Cersei's stupidity and the blowback that she incurred from her ridiculous schemes that were motivated by paranoia, revenge and anger.

[SeanC]

King's Landing is feeling really stale to me at this point.  I don't care about any of these people (not even Jaime, who at this point is just Cersei's lapdog); Margaery probably comes the closest, but she's been such a marginal presence the last few seasons despite all the hype around her.

[Tikichick]

It's like they had to return Jamie to KL because he had to return Myrcella/Myrcella's body, but now that they moved his piece into that position on the board they have no storyline for him so he just trails around in Cersei's wake. 

I cannot remember who it was, I'm thinking Cersei directed at Kevan, where there was a mention of the name Tully and referenced things beginning to fray.  The mention of Tully caught my attention and shortly followed by fray made my mind hop to Frey, wonder what she might be trying to plot and then was lost because the episode kept marching along. 

[DigitalCount]

I think Lord Baelish directed the "jumping into the fray" at either Robin or Royce.

[screamin]

6 hours ago, J----av said:

 

  I am not saying they hated each other, but they didn't like each other.

Don't really think that even in the books there was any personal dislike. Yes, Sansa was her mother's girl always and looked down on Jon. But there were good times also. Little hints and memories showing they were still family. Like the time Jon recalls Sansa told him that you should always say a girl's name is pretty (which is good advice). Sansa pitying Jon when she sees what a rough outfit the Night's Watch looks like. Granted, neither of them were close within the family, and pity and compassion are but the small change of love. But when all the rest of your family is gone (as both Sansa and Jon thought till recently) the differences matter a lot less than the remaining ties. IIRC, when Sansa was in the Vale, she thought of Jon: "How sweet it would be, to see him again."

[benteen]

13 minutes ago, SeanC said:

King's Landing is feeling really stale to me at this point.  I don't care about any of these people (not even Jaime, who at this point is just Cersei's lapdog); Margaery probably comes the closest, but she's been such a marginal presence the last few seasons despite all the hype around her.

Yeah, King's Landing has felt the stalest this season.  I think it's been feeling like that for a while, ever since Tywin's death and Tyrion and Varys fleeing for Essos (which got more interesting tonight).  The Wall has become the much more interesting place (with the North itself to a certain degree) with all the different people you have up there.  Jon, Sansa, Brienne, Davos, Melisandre, Tormund, Pod, Edd and Littlefinger now on his way.

[FemmyV]

9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Welp. I am now shipping Brienne/Tormund. What's the ship name? Someone write me a fic.

Torienne? Brimond?

[Alapaki]

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King's Landing is feeling really stale to me at this point.  I don't care about any of these people (not even Jaime, who at this point is just Cersei's lapdog); Margaery probably comes the closest, but she's been such a marginal presence the last few seasons despite all the hype around her.

The show seems to be treating Kings Landing this season like Dorne last season! (actually worse, because there really wasn't anything going on in Dorne)

Didn't Cersei say that her Trial was just a matter of days away?  Cersei burned the Lannister bridges with the Tyrells; she defaulted on the Crowns' debt to the Iron Bank, which we're told is something that just. isn't. done.; she allowed a band of religious fanatics to arm themselves and raise an army within the walls of Kings Landing; in the process she got herself and her son/King's Queen imprisoned and demonstrated her son/King's powerless to do anything about it; oh, and there are still enemies/threats to the Crown in the field.

I'd say Kevan has a hell of a lot more important things to be dealing with than taking attendance at the Small Council meetings.  And yet that's all we've seen of Kings Landing other than Tommen trying to work out his Oedipus complex.

[CountryGirl]

First time poster on this forum, but LONG time lurker.

I felt like Eliza that time Ozzy got blindsided on Survivor watching GoT last night.
Ok, so I pretty much have felt like Eliza's reaction all season long.

But let's start with the moment I have been waiting for since Jon first went North to the Wall. 

There was a teeny, tiny part of me that thought TPTB would have another near-miss and if they had, it would not have been pretty.

But I want to give them a big, wet sloppy kiss for this and if you didn't tear up then and you don't tear up now, I don't even want to know you because clearly, you have no soul and/or might be Ramsey.

They may not be in Winterfell (for the moment) but two Starks have come home.

Castle Black -

The reunion, the sharing stories, Sansa admitting she was awful (girl, yes, but look at you now). She is as different from that Joffrey-loving priss as daylight is to dark. Jon admitting to being emo. Jon saying, "Where will WE go?"   

Sansa, showing herself to be every inch her father's daughter, with the desire to take back the North because if they don't, they'll never be safe. And!!!! "I want you to help me but I'll do it myself if I have to." YAASSSSS....That's my girl.

Nice dodge about Shireen, there, Melisandre, but surely Davos has heard the tale of Shireen being burned alive by now? I loved Brienne's make no apologies speech about killing Stannis. Anyone who BBQs their daughter deserves exactly what he got. 

Vale - 

Ugh, LF again. He's just so swarmy and oily and unctuous. Which means he'll probably outlast everything like the cockroach he is. Clearly he has Robin under his Svengali spell. I cannot wait til he is called out for literally leading Sansa into harm's way. I don't think he gives two shits about Sansa, other than her resemblance to his childhood crush (only Cat, indeed) and that she's the Queen he needs for his chessboard.

King's Landing - 

Could they get on with it already, show? And the HS's explanation for why he turned religious? Really? He should have taken a hangover cure and had a nap already. Lame. So in keeping with the theme of women power this episode, Margery is here to prop up a given-up-hope Loras (although who can blame him, given the trauma he's suffered).

Tommen, to Cersei "You don't like Margery, do you?" Um, that's the understatement of the year, sweetie. 

More jabs from Lady Olenna - always a welcome sight.

Bring on the Tyrell army and City Watch and wipe out the Faith Militant (and their increasingly boring storyline) off the face of the earth once and for all.

But will Lancel live to tell the tale of Jaime not being the only one Cersei gets her incest fix from?

Mereen - 

Something tells me unlike the Bible's Jacob, Dany's going to be none too happy about the 7 years' deal Tyrion made on her behalf. 

Winterfell - 

So this happened and if anyone thought it was going to end other than Osha getting stabbed, well, let me sit you down and tell you a thing or three about what this show is all about. But seriously, TPTB, E-FUCKING-NOUGH with the Ramsey is the baddest bad that ever badded. He's Leroy Brown on steroids, ok? When I'm sitting there, mentally counting down the seconds until said stabbing occurs, that's not good storytelling. It's lazy and gratuitous and BORING as hell. You deserved better, Osha.

Back to Castle Black - 

A moment of levity with Tormund giving the eyebrow wiggle to Brienne who didn't know whether to be disgusted, amused, or turned on. Edd's "you do you, Tormund" expression at watching the attempted tete-a-tete? Priceless.

Podrick was giving Tormund the evil eye. Awww... If Jaime and Brienne don't meet again, I could totally get onboard a Tormund/Brienne pairing. Who am I kidding? I'd totally get onboard Tormund all by myself. All he need do is growl.

So a raven arrives with Ramsey's letter, presumably written in medieval crayon given the childlike language (come and see?), and it is ON. I loved that Sansa snatched the letter and read it to completion.

"A monster has taken our home and our brother, we have to go back to Winterfell and save them." Who could have imagined five years ago, even two years ago, that Sansa would have ever made that statement vs Jon. 

Sorry, Jon, your Watch may be ended but the real battle has just begun.

Pyke - (it was somewhere in there, right?)

I continue to hate that Theon was torn from the North storyline but I guess they need to give Yara something to do, especially now that Balon is dead (although he may never die). I get Yara's pissed because she tried to rescue him before and lost men in the attempt but cut your PTRamseyD brother some slack, 'k?

Dothraki land - 

Women power at its finest. No, she doesn't want to be rescued (or your number or to meet you nowhere or none of your time). Well, okay, so Jorah and Daario aren't scrubs, but Mama of Dragons is going to get shit done. HER way.

"You're not going to serve, you're going to die." Yes, honey, burn those motherfuckers down.

Walking away from the flames, stark naked and oh-so-powerful and triumphant in her nakedness, while everyone outside bows before her like the Khaleesi she is.

Confession - I didn't even miss Bran/flashback time this episode - it was THAT good. Plus, I know good things come to those who wait.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Paws said:

They were either going to imprison her for the rest of her life (make her stay with the Dosh Khaleen) or gang rape her, at BEST she was going to be sold into slavery. I'm pretty sure she knew that before she ever set foot in the temple and had Jorio bar the doors.

I wouldn't say that being given the status of respected wise woman among the Dothraki is the worst of options, especially as compared to slavery. Dany went into that building determined to kill the khals who wanted to rape her and sell her into slavery AND the khals who would prefer to send her to what they think of as a respected shrine that has canonically even served as a refuge for abused wives. Yes, her action on killing them all was a repudiation of their arrogant assumption that they had ANY right to determine her fate so lightly, and that's cool, but it still paints Dany a bit grey.

[FemmyV]

9 hours ago, J----av said:

I don't get people complaining about "Super Ramsay" but not Super Jon who kills Whites, takes over the KW as a teen and  always ends up on top even when he dies. Super Brienne who just roles through everyone she faces and freaken Dany who births dragons, has every city roll over for her, takes over armies in 10 mins and twice walks out of a fire. With so many "super" hero's you need at least one super villain to counter them.

It has to do with a certain amount of plotting. Jon has lucked onto a lot stuff. Ramsey, otoh, calculates it all, BUT .. many times with his victims, when he gets a win, it's written as being because HE'S SO MUCH SMARTER than his enemies. He wasted Stannis' army because he's a super-smart villian; he got a woman to join him in the dog kennels, MINUTES after giving birth, he managed to knife one of the genuinely smartest, most treacherous Lords on the show because Daddy never imagined his son the psychopath might have a problem with losing his newly-gained power.

In Season 1, I loved GoT because the antagonists — Cersei, Jamie, Littlefinger, et al, — were all smart enough that their victims didn't have to be dumbed down.

[nodorothyparker]

Kings Landing is feeling only a little less superfluous than whatever the hell it is they're still doing in Meereen.  It was interesting when all the better players were still there and winter was coming in oh ... maybe one of these days.  But the real story is in the North now and all the mostly B team has done in Kings Landing up to this episode is move chairs around and snipe at each other while they're basically being held hostage by a bunch of dirty religious fanatics.  Allegedly, they're still running a kingdom but we haven't gotten any real sense of that in awhile now.   

Hopefully, that story is finally going to move and finally get Jaime out of the city and into the Riverlands where he belongs.  I also do kind of want to see Margaery be the last one standing of her house but they haven't completely sold me on that either because she's been given so little to do for so long.

Edited May 16, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[sacrebleu]

Even more than the hug-- I loved the look Jon/Sansa shared when she took the ale out of his hand. That said everything about the changed dynamic between them. 

How sad is it that a quick death was really the best we could have hoped for Osha, and again I state my comment from last weeks episode, is there a death painful and horrifying enough for Ramsay that it would seem like payoff for all the hideous violence he's responsible for? I think someone mentioned Ghost ripping this throat out, that would be good-- can't Melissandra turn him immortal-- but chain him to a pyre so that he burns eternally-- that would be my choice.

[benteen]

Quote

When I saw Sansa pulling up as Jon was there I was like, are we going to get the reunion? I waited for someone to attack Sansa or something but no

The guy who does the EW recap always does a funny review and joked he expected a resurrected Olly to shoot Sansa with an arrow before she could hug Jon.  Then cut to Melisandre saying "What?  You thought you were the only peson that I brought back?"

Agreed, it's sad that Osha getting a quick death was the best we could have hoped for her.  Being in Ramsay's clutches, something terrible was going to happen to her and what happened was the "best" possible scenario.  I'm glad she remained loyal to the Starks and I had no doubt that she would.

It certainly looks like Jon and Dany are assembling their armies for the eventual end game, doesn't it?

[vibeology]

I don't see any option presented to Dany as a good one. Either she would be a prisoner of the Dothraki, a victim of sexual violence at the hands of the Dothraki or a slave at the hands of people who really, really hate her considering her history in Slaver's Bay. I guess being a prisoner is the least awful option, but freeing herself from all those options seems perfectly fine. The only people she killed were the people who were a danger to her in some way.

The Stark reunion was amazing even if technically it wasn't an in-show reunion. It's still powerful because Jon and Sansa are two of a handful of people left who shared what Winterfell was before the war and the deaths. They have this connection because they know the stories Old Nan used to tell and they've taken lessons from Maester Luwin. They've run around the yard with Hodor and talked to Jory. They've prayed under the Heart Tree with Ned. So when they hugged, it was sooo much emotion all at once even if we never saw all those moments. I don't think I could ever ship Jonsa because of all that, but I'm preparing myself if the show does go there. Jon would still be better than every other guy who's been matched with Sansa.

[Tikichick]

31 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I think Lord Baelish directed the "jumping into the fray" at either Robin or Royce.

Thank you.  Lots of moving pieces in this episode.  I try to enjoy the show and remember to pay attention to the intricacies where I can.  I generally find I need a second watching to help me notice even a smidge more of what's going on.

[Miles]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Tyrion's line that people in Westeros make money without slaves and that he grew-up richer than any of the Masters was pointless unless he knows about a heretofore unknown gold mine in Slaver's Bay. 

 

Yeah, I had forgotten about that bullshit change on the show. Here the Lanisters got rich of a gold mine, while in the books they got rich because Lanisport is an important trade hub and they get a percantage of every trade.

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

I think the issue is the unbelievability of what we saw. So all you have to do to defeat a dozen or more alpha Dothraki is ... knock over the burning torches? Because the fire ... magically spreads exactly where you need it to? In record time (and this had never been a problem before at the retired khaleesi place, I mean, at any moment you might burn down the house)? And none of the warriors have a clear shot at you? And then you push over each one and it continues to protect you while the men just run around in circles? And at the end, the last one you push takes out the last guy?

I assumed Dany and her boytoys had poured some kind of excellerant on the floor beforehand and we weren't shown it as to not ruin the surprise (I suspect we'll get a mention next week). But yeah, how the fire spread was suspiciously cinematic.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Miles

[screamin]

One thing that bothered me in this episode is Olenna's willingness to go along with Cersei and Jaime's plans. Yes, the High Sparrow's plans cannot be allowed. But he has both heirs of House Tyrell as hostages. In a hostage rescue, you want the equivalent of a highly trained SWAT team, not the blunt instrument of an army attacking. If the bulk of the Sparrow's troops see the battle going against them, they're likely to kill their hostages. Not to mention that in the free-for-all of a battle it would be very easy for Cersei to send a soldier of her own to make sure Margaery does end up dead, the blame safely placed on the Sparrows. I don't think it's in character for Olenna to be so accepting of these possibilities.

[Alapaki]

Quote

In Season 1, I loved GoT because the antagonists — Cersei, Jamie, Littlefinger, et al, — were all smart enough that their victims didn't have to be dumbed down.

The other thing is that Martin had a certain way of writing some complexity into his characters.  Cersie is an awful person.  But she's also legitimately aggrieved at being denied power/respect/authority solely because of her gender.  For as strong a person as she is, she's nothing more than a pawn to be married off by her father to the most politically expedient suitor.

Our first impression of Jaime is his attempted murder (and ultimately crippling) of a very young boy solely because the boy caught Jaime fucking his own sister.  But, then we learn that he's been carrying the shame and blame of "Kingslayer" when he killed the King at least partly to prevent all of Kings Landing from being immolated. 

And the heroes have their own blemishes as well.

Ramsey is just a pure psychopath/sociopath.  Which there's certainly a place for.  But D&D have him constantly winning.  Which, again, might be fine if they're planning one hell of a comeuppance for him.  But the way they've treated the characters, I'm half-expecting him to die peacefully in his sleep.

Quote

Kings Landing is feeling only a little less superfluous than whatever the hell it is they're still doing in Meereen.

I think, for me, part of the problem with Mereen is that TPTB highlighted the big elephant in the room (so to speak) with the dragons-in-the-basement too early in the season.

For as dramatic as that scene was (and I'm sure was supposed to be), we're left with a big old "Aaaaannnnnnddddddddd?"  What?  The dragons are unchained.  But, they're still in the basement, right?  So what's the point?  Are they going to grow bigger now that they can stretch their wings in the basement?  Is Tyrion busy having a door big enough to let them out dug into the wall?  If they're getting stronger, isn't there a legitimate concern that they'll start trying to claw their own door?  And, if they do, given that they're in the base of the pyramid, isn't there a concern that they might damage the structural integrity of the entire structure?  

And these aren't just Seinfeld-ian observations.  Obviously the possession of dragons is Dany's (and by extension Varys' and Tyrion's) only bargaining chip.  But, presumably, no one in Mereen has seen any of the dragons in some time.  

I'm just questioning the inclusion of that unchaining scene so far apart from any focus on the consequences of that action.

[Tikichick]

14 minutes ago, screamin said:

One thing that bothered me in this episode is Olenna's willingness to go along with Cersei and Jaime's plans. Yes, the High Sparrow's plans cannot be allowed. But he has both heirs of House Tyrell as hostages. In a hostage rescue, you want the equivalent of a highly trained SWAT team, not the blunt instrument of an army attacking. If the bulk of the Sparrow's troops see the battle going against them, they're likely to kill their hostages. Not to mention that in the free-for-all of a battle it would be very easy for Cersei to send a soldier of her own to make sure Margaery does end up dead, the blame safely placed on the Sparrows. I don't think it's in character for Olenna to be so accepting of these possibilities.

 

No, it's not like the Queen of Thorns not to have gotten out her abacus and double checked Cersei's math for herself.

[Alapaki]

Given what we've seen of Olenna, I think she has to know Cersei's ulterior motive.  

We didn't see any actual battle-plans discussed.  We just heard that it would involve the Tyrell Army, and that the City Guard, Lannister troops, and Kingsguard would "stand down" (I think those are the only ones whom the King would directly control at this point).

Olenna knows that a walk-of-shame by Margery cannot be allowed to happen.  She may or may not have access to people with intimate knowledge of the "blueprint" for the Sept.  So she may have no alternative.  They could be planning a frontal assault, or at least showdown, by the main Army forces (we've seen footage of such in one of the previews) while a smaller group tries to infiltrate the Sept through another entrance.

And I'd assume that for every soldier whom Cesei has paid to take a run at Margery and Loras Olenna has two on the payroll with Jaime in their sights.

[Tikichick]

13 hours ago, SeanC said:

Castle Black – yeah, that was pretty great.  Also, those Tormund glances at Brienne would probably bump the episode up a grade point if I assessed it overall in those terms.  Though I was thrown by Jon referring to Ned as "your [Sansa's] father"; uh, guys, he doesn't know his parentage yet.  Either "our father" or "your mother" would have made more sense.

 

 

 

Fits perfectly with Jon's attitude and behavior in the books.  Even back to the beginning of the story where they came upon the dead direwolf, Jon immediately told Ned there were enough direwolves for each of his children, before the existence of the runt was known.

More and more I feel the symbolism of the direwolf and her pups has far reaching roots into the entire storyline, quite possibly even beyond the Stark narrative.  Dead mothers, unclear number of offspring at first look, offspring being killed or said to be dead, offspring gone missing out of sight to possibly lurk in the shadows, offspring with fierce and often surprising strength and powers. 

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

What's the High Sparrow's end game with Marge and Loras?  It seems like he's using cult conversion techniques (malnutrition, sleep deprivation, continual sermonizing) like he's Jim Jones, but he still intends to put them on trial?  I guess he's expecting that after he's broken them, they'll testify against themselves and this will accomplish... what? 

I think this part of his plan (in addition to Cersei's walk of atonement), is in order to tear down the aristocracy. For decades (if not longer) the peasants have been told the nobles are better then them, they see them dressed in their finery. He's trying to show the people that everyone is the same, a sinner in the eyes of the Seven.

To what ultimate end I have no idea.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

Otherwise, with respect to the High Sparrow, IMO his hypocrisy has nothing to do with his expressed redistribution-of-wealth politics.  The ostensible reason for the High Sparrow asking for the re-arming of the Faith Militant was that Septons and Septas were (allegedly) being slaughtered by bandits out in the Riverlands as a result of the chaos and destruction wrought by the war.  He showed up at Kings Landing with a cart full of their bones.  His argument was that if the Crown can't protect them, let them protect themselves.  Now, once armed, instead of seeing to the defense of those Septons and Septas, he's turned on the Crown.  His monologue to Margery showed that he is just as power-hungry now as he ever was.  He's just clothing his lust-for-power in religion instead of commerce.

I'd guess that if asked about this, he'd answer that the death of Septons and Septas as a result of the chaos wrought by war (which we have seen is a fact, along with the deaths of a whole lot of other people) is but a symptom of the system he's rejecting - the system in which aristocrats have the unbridled authority to grab smallfolk from the toil of their livelihoods and set them to slaughter other smallfolk because of their vain, petty, sinful quarrels (like the war that started because one aristocrat just HAD to fuck his married sister). Whether you're a peasant or a beggar or a fairly prosperous craftsman or merchant, you're still equally vulnerable to them - like that poor innkeeper in the first book who had the misfortune to have Tyrion and Cat as guests.

IMO, the Sparrow would say that he led with the complaint of the Septons and Septas being slaughtered, because that was the complaint most likely to get him enough power and influence to right the larger wrongs. He's a canny politician. But that doesn't mean he's not sincere in his larger goals. I really don't think we're going to find out that he indulges in secret orgies behind closed doors where he keeps secret prostitutes, flowing wine and fancy shoes to wear. I think he does believe that the gods are on his side and want him to do what he's doing.

Which doesn't keep him from being a villain, of course. Yeah, he's sincere. So was Torquemada.

I'd guess GRRM's intent on writing the High Sparrow is that he's Westeros' equivalent of puritan Oliver Cromwell...destined to overthrow the throne for a brief interval that will eventually come to nothing.

[screamin]

5 hours ago, Alapaki said:

 

Oops, DDP.

Edited May 16, 2016 by screamin

[morgankobi]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Brienne and Tormund!  <slaps forehead>  Why did I never think of that?  The less ladylike she is, the more he'll find her sexy.  What a perfect pairing!

Like you all, when Sansa ran to Jon and they hugged I shed a few tears.  That was a lovely moment, all the more so because they weren't close as children.  Now they have common sorrows and regrets and can build a new relationship on the desire to take back what is theirs.

I was surprised by D&D going rogue and Dany being fireproof again.  At least she now has a massive army and can move her plot forward, just in time to rescue Tyrion from that extremely boring Meereen storyline.

RIP Tonks.

Bolding mine. To me, that's it exactly. 

Any Stark in a storm. At this point, they'd probably cry and hug the third-string stable boy from Winterfell if he showed up. (Not that I'd blame them.)

 

I also said goodbye to Tonks, not Osha :)

[MarySNJ]

10 hours ago, J----av said:

 

 I don't get people complaining about "Super Ramsay" but not Super Jon who kills Whites, takes over the KW as a teen and  always ends up on top even when he dies. Super Brienne who just roles through everyone she faces and freaken Dany who births dragons, has every city roll over for her, takes over armies in 10 mins and twice walks out of a fire. With so many "super" hero's you need at least one super villain to counter them.

Mileage may vary. As was pointed out by Jon himself, he fails. Repeatedly. Trying to do the right thing cost him his life. Yes, he came back, but now he's got one more mess to clean up because of his decisions, and Thorne may end up being right that Jon will be protecting the Wildlings for the rest of his life.  He managed to persuade some important people that he was worth investing in, and that may be a function of his early privilege, but he still had to earn the respect of his brothers or they wouldn't have voted for him. 

And ultimately, Jon is motivated by trying to do what is right for the most people. Ramsay is motivated by doing what is right for Ramsay. So, if I'm more tolerant of Jon's head start than I am Ramsay's, it's because the decisions he makes aren't born out of sadism or selfishness but a desire to protect people from a fate worse than death. 

[stillshimpy]

Still away from a keyboard, so no ability to quote and forced into something resembling brevity.  Pour one out for OSHA. Sure she died, but she went out still serving the Starks and risking her life to try and protect the "little Lord". By Ramsay standards that was an awesome death, even though we know he will have her fed to hounds, at least she can't come back as a Zomboni. She died trying to do her duty and keep her word, beats the fuck out of most outcomes. 

 

Like almost everyone, I appreciated getting a few moments of something happy for the Winterfell kids. 

 

My main reaction to Dany was the contrast to Jon's rejection as being viewed as a god, vs Dany courting it. 

 

Also, to anyone bothered that Dany planned the Kahl Roast before hearing their disgusting intent for her: that is actually the business of being the top Kahl. The assembled were the best murders and rapists the Dothrakihad. Dany walked in there knowing how they all made their bones. She walked in knowing they would rape her because she was told that before she told them she was a kahleesi and also? Has met the Dothraki before. Prior knowledge.

 

Roast in hell, Ramsay, may the Stranger call for you very, very soon.

[benteen]

I saw that scene again with Jon and Sansa and Jon says "Father's ghost" not "Your father's ghost."  It only sounds like the latter because he says it so quickly.

[nksarmi]

I don't remember where I said it, but I do recall saying that I hoped that if Brie took Sansa to the wall she would get to enjoy some time among the Wildlings where the men would respect her strength and all her awesomeness. I could remember if Tormond was married in the show or I would have started THAT ship a long time ago! I love the way he looks at her and I can't wait for her to figure out why he's looking at her like that. :)

Of course the Jon / Sansa embrace is one of the best moments of the entire f-ing series and why I knew I couldn't wait for book six. I needed this material now! Sniff.

Sansa's new post-shock attitude is what I've wanted from her since I first read she would be in the North instead of the Vale. I can't wait to see her and Jon team up on Operation Kill Ramsey/Save Rickon. And I'm so glad that Tormond's immediate response to the letter what "how many men does he save" so Jon knows he doesn't even have to talk the wildlings into joining him. He just has to find a few Northern allies who still believe enough in the Others to understand why he let the wildlings through or who hate the Boltons enough they don't care why he did it as long as they help them fight.

The North is definitely where my interest is in the show, but with that said - I am somewhat amused at Cersei in King's Landing. Keven hasn't become a very effective Hand yet so I wonder if the Varys plot from the books will even be necessary.

I am somewhat bored by Meereen but I do like Tyrion testing himself. But more importantly - I think this plot is to teach the other two how to rule. Before Dany can leave, she needs to be able to place the Kingdom is someone's hands that she can trust. Which means that Tyrion is going to have to teach Dany's unsullied commander and interpreter how to step into that role since on the show - they seem like the best candidates to leave behind.

And then there was Dany's fiery take over - loved it so much! Though my favorite part might have been Daario's "oh shit - she really is more than just a pretty face" moment.

[Boilergal]

I want the High Sparrow and Septa Unella to be caught snorting cocaine off the naked back end of one of the low sparrows - or something that would be just as damnable in that era - something to show him to be the utter hypocrite I know he has to be! 

When Jon told Sansa that he couldn't stay at the Wall and shorthanded the reason,  I had the feeling they had quite the lengthy conversation about what had gone on and the crap they had been through individually.   I believe Jon knows what Ramsey did to Sansa.  Since Sansa looked pretty rough when she showed up at the gate, and the risk involved in just getting to Castle Black, Jon would have wanted to know what happened - and Sansa would have filled him in.

BrieMund!!! 

Every time Cersei whines about her imprisonment - I yell-- What About Margery?!?!?!?!   SHUT UP CERSEI!!!! 

I was afraid the Danerys plot would last longer and would invovle her being passed around, so I was delighted last night when she took care of business.  I thought for sure Drogon was coming for her - but her plan rocked! 

I knew Osha was a goner as soon as she walked in the room with Ramsey - I didn't figure it would be as easy as Osha taking him out, but it was exciting for a second.  Hoping it's Sansa that turns the screws on Ramsey! 

Bonus - No Sand Snakes!!