S02.E05: Untimely Resurrection

[Athena]

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Reunited, Jamie and Claire attempt to extinguish the fires their dinner party ignited; however, Claire is set off on an unexpected change of course.

This is the Book Talk thread and includes open spoilers and discussion for all the books. If you are unspoiled, please go to the No Book Talk thread.

[toolazy]

That scene where Jamie tells Claire that they will both learn how to take care of the baby?  It pretty much broke my heart.

I don't like that Claire took action to keep Alex & Mary apart - that doesn't seem in character.  

There wasn't enough Fergus. 

[Clawdette]

When the episode was over, I realized that my entire body had been tensed from the moment Black Jack returned.  The final scene where Claire tries to convince Jamie to spare BJ for a year to protect Frank's lineage, was especially powerful.  Sam was riveting in his incredulity that Claire would ask this.  

Didn't mind at all King Louie jerking Black Jack around.  Such an uncomfortable and unexpected position for him.

The final line: Do.Not.Touch.Me.  Heartbreaking. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by Clawdette

[Dust Bunny]

I loved, loved, LOVED this episode. So many character moments. I think this is my favorite so far.

The beginning with the moments of quiet wedded bliss between Jamie and Claire that I've been craving for - to show their devotion to each other. The way how - just as in the book - Jamie lifts up a sleeping Fergus and commends him for guarding his mistress.

The scene with Murtagh and Jamie... you can almost see that as the moment when Jamie becomes a true leader of men. There's a gravitas that he has over his godfather. It's probably partly due to Murtagh's shame at having failed Jamie. But all this time, we've seen Murtagh as Jamie's mentor, kicking his butt when he thinks "the lad" needs it. I feel like there was a huge shift in this scene, and the guys played it marvelously.

I loved the little moment - that I don't remember in the book - when Jamie asks BPC how the shipment will be managed, and BPC says, "Do not plague me with workmen's concerns." Sam gives the greatest look to convey dismay at that. Even when Jamie is Himself, he never treats people the way he just saw the prince treat him.

I really enjoyed how Jamie and St. Germain used their respective languages as a form of dueling. It was so caustic.

Even as I'm typing this, I feel we see Jamie turn into a man throughout this episode. In both subtle and more overt moments, Sam hit this one out of the park.

There was a long shot in the apartment about midway in the episode where I thought, "that is A LOT of candles." 

I don't remember if there was a christening gift in the book. But I really loved it here. It shows that Jamie is engaged in the pregnancy. We don't have much more time to see that. :( I also appreciated that they were apostle spoons that relates to his Catholic faith. That makes it all the more shocking when...

Jamie blasphemes "Jesus. God, Claire." after saying "And now you claim your debt." Sam nailed that delivery.

Those last two scenes. First of all, shout-out to Lionel Lingelser. He played Louis perfectly for what was an immensely important scene with all the subtext between Jamie, Claire, and BJR. We haven't seen much of Louis, but Lionel brings it every time.

Sam, Cait, and Tobias. I'm speechless in all they did. Damn. Cait's face when BJR says Jamie's name. The blocking of when Sam walked up and didn't even look to his left. The completely open laughter when BJR gets on his knees. And - a brief moment when you can see BJR speaks of his brother with affection. That could easily have gotten lost, but it was definitely there. I would have loved to be at rehearsal and heard how they broke down that scene.

And that last scene. Now I'm really speechless. Sam and Cait are incredible. The tears in their eyes - for very different reasons. Jamie at being in absolute disbelief that Claire would ask this of him. And again - that blaspheme. It's all the more powerful being in English and not a quick Gaelic curse. And Claire feeling like her hand is being forced to hurt one husband for the sake of the other. She hates it, but she doesn't back down. For a while, I've imagined if/how Jamie would tell Claire, "Do not touch me." That was perfect. They are perfect. Can there be an Emmy for best duo?

Also shout-out to Bear for the scoring for this episode. There were a lot of complex emotional beats, and the score met every moment.

Yep, this is probably my favorite so far. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[Hybiscus]

Note to Ronald D. Moore:  That Richard Kahan is a keeper!  I pretty much agree with what everyone has said so far.  The arrival of Black Jack Randall totally sucked the life happiness out of the show.  Hated how Claire manipulated Alex Randall for her own selfish needs.  But it's somewhat consistent with the book.  I remember absolutely despising how Claire forced Jamie to not kill BJR in the book.

(Paraphrasing here):

Claire:  What about Frank??
Me:  Who gives a fuck?

Just one other thought:  It's a good thing BPC is so self-centered, otherwise he'd see what a lousy liar Jamie is.

OH!  And when Jamie picked up Fergus with Claire looking on... my heart melted.

[Dust Bunny]

8 minutes ago, Hybiscus said:

Note to Ronald D. Moore:  That Richard Kahan is a keeper! 

According to IMDB, this is his first writing credit. He's an actor out of Canada. Not sure how they snagged him, but I hope he'll be a regular writer from now on. That script was awesome. It even had the minor characters of Sandringham, Mary, and Alex down pat. (I also hated that scene between Claire and Alex. Laurence Dobiesz breaks my heart.) 

[Petunia846]

This episode felt long...in a good way. Looking back I can't believe all the different things that went into it. Finally a male writer who can write good emotional beats. (Sorry, but the other guys just haven't been my favorites, especially not Moore.)

[Nidratime]

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According to IMDB, this is his first writing credit. He's an actor out of Canada. Not sure how they snagged him, but I hope he'll be a regular writer from now on. That script was awesome. It even had the minor characters of Sandringham, Mary, and Alex down pat. (I also hated that scene between Claire and Alex. Laurence Dobiesz breaks my heart.)

Mary and Blake of "Outlander Cast" interviewed Richard Kahan back in March. It was a very good interview where we learn that Richard has been a writing assistant with the show from the very beginning. He has apprenticed under Executive Producer Ira Steven Behr and was encouraged to write a script by him and the rest of the writing team. 

Here's the interview:

http://www.outlandercast.com/2016/03/outlander-cast-chats-w-outlander.html

[WatchrTina]

First impressions:  The first half was slow and plagued with some really clunky dialog so I'm not having a very favorable reaction to this new writer (it's his first script for the show, right?)  The plot with the wine / St. Germain / BPC left me confused and I've read the books so that's pretty bad.  I pity the unsullied.

But the moment Black Jack Randall appears on the screen -- Oh.  My.  God.  (Seriously. I must have said that out loud a half dozen times while hugging myself and bouncing up and down in my chair.)

Biggest surprise -- The King throwing shade at BJR.  I'm going to have to think a bit about that -- I presume he did that because BJR wearing his uniform was a breach of etiquette.  But whether it makes sense historically or not, I enjoyed it.  I'm definitely a bigger fan of his Majesty than I was before.

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The blocking of when Sam walked up and didn't even look to his left.

I, too, loved that Jamie did not even look at BJR and at first I thought it was his way of showing his contempt but then I recollected that when one is in the presence of King Louis, one must face him and look at him at all times.  So Jamie's behavior was correct court behavior, with the added benefit of allowing him to show a lack of respect for Jack.  Jamie slips a bit, later on -- turning his attention to BJR when the King starts messing with him -- but I think the King would overlook that since Jamie is attending to the impact of the King's words.

Okay, off to watch it again, this time trying to let go of the TV-vs-book differences so I can just let the performances wash over me.

Edited May 7, 2016 by WatchrTina

[AheadofStraight]

I loathed Claire in this part of the book and felt the same after this episode. They nailed it. I found the beginning a bit tedious and I didn't really understand the point of the convo with Annalise but I was riveted once BJR showed up. Gripping!! Sam and Cait really knocked this one out of the park.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Jamie: "Do.NOT...Touch.ME."

Me: Whelp.

MY.GOD. Those last two scenes...I'm positive I was holding my breath. Sam was beyond riveting. He was just...no words. I have no words.

Ahem.

"laddie"

Me: awwwwww, cuteness! 

Add to the wonderificalness of "Ye Wee Fool."

No lie, I was riveted on Sam's face during this entire episode when he was onscreen. The half-smiles, the eyes, the tilting of the eyebrows and me imagining the hair shearing scene when he goes after Black Jack.

I was also like, who gives a fuck about Frank, not only when reading the buik but also here, because Claire had already made her choice, ye ken? I was pissed at Buik!Claire during this part as weell.

More and more, I'm losing faith I wilna get my healing hand and tears scene!!!!

I thought for sure, that Sandringham's continued talk about Charlie, and men, in general, while Jamie was looking over the horsies (my horsie loving heart was in horsie heaven at all the GORGEOUS horsies!!!), that Black Jack would show up, to blind side Jamie.

I continue to smile like a simpleton whenever I see Jamie in a kilt.

And then of course the "Jesus." Pause. "God...Claire"  And then the spew of curses in Gaelic, and then when he turns to Claire, after she calls in the favors for saving his life, not once, but twice. Really? She's going to use that? THAT? And the contempt on Jamie's face for calling her out on it--loved it. That he didn't feel guilt, which I was glad for, but Jesus Fucking Christ. And how Jamie forced/made Claire admit that's what she was doing and as Jamie said, "I am a man or honor" and that he pays his debts.

This episode and last week's are now tied, for me, as the best of the episodes thus far.

I'm sure I'll have more later.

ETA: Seems to me like Sam has had a cold these past couple of episodes.

Edited May 7, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[morgan]

Overall really liked this episode.  A couple of clunky (to me) moments. But so many amazing ones!  Jamie's "Jesus.  God, Claire." is one of the most chillingly heart wrenching moments.  Perfectly delivered.

Loved the opening with the servants cleaning up the aftermath of the party and of Jamie and Claire talking...you could just feel their connection.  Loved the moment with Fergus too.

I don't remember Claire interfering with Alex in the book.   I thought it was Alex who knew he couldn't support Mary so backed off.  I could be misremembering that though?  I wish it had played like that instead though.  I don't know.  Whenever she is talking to either Mary or Alex I always have this Alice in wonderland moment because she always seems so huge compared to them!  Lol

Louis c'est magnifique!

I hate BJR and cannot wait to see the last of him, but I also am bowled over by how fabulous the whole Versailles meeting went.  Beautifully written and acted and of course the setting and costumes were stunning.

I do understand Claire asking for a year for Frank, as horrible as it is and omg that final scene was incredible.  On a side note I find it unsettling that Claire doesn't for a moment seem to feel for Mary and her destined marriage to BJR.  Even a passing horrified thought about it.  Did I miss that somewhere?

For half a tick I thought we were spared the Fergus/BJR scene until I remembered that comes later.  

Overall just really happy with this episode.  Mr.morgan (non reader) on the other hand is not enjoying France at all and is losing interest.  I think back to Scotland will change that.  He is definitely not on board with Claire though, especially with her request of Jamie.  Will be curious to see other non readers responses.  

[areca]

I never actually understood the drama around this issue in the books.  "If Frank doesn't exist, I won't marry him, I won't be in Scotland, and we will never exist."  It was a one sentence conversation.  Two if you accept that the next sentence is "Oh."

Edited May 7, 2016 by areca

[morgan]

I think it was more than that.  She wanted Frank to exist for Frank's sake.  Hard enough to not return to him/choose Jamie.  I think she feels guilt for that, as much as she made the right choice for her.  He deserves to exist for his own self as well.  

Edited May 7, 2016 by morgan

[areca]

The point was that it was all completely unnecessary, irrespective of her reasoning.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Jaime didn't really say "Jesus.  God, Claire."  But rather he said "Jesus God, Claire."  He seemed to be physically choking on fury and couldn't speak well.

Edited May 7, 2016 by areca

[Lion]

Nothing like returning home from such a lovely vacation, feeling perfectly high on life, and then being greeted with an episode of Outlander that just punches you in the gut.  

Black Jack Randall simply sucked all of the air out of the room.  I was on edge despite knowing exactly what would and will happen.  This is the point in the series where it's hard not to dislike Claire.  Everything from destroying the life and prospects of two perfectly wonderful people (Mary and Alex) to making Jamie not deal with Randall in case of Frank.  As Jamie pointed out, they were there to change history, and that change is going to mean probable change across the board.  He has trusted her to know how this works, and it's abundantly neither of them, but especially Claire, have really thought about what changing things would mean.  Would Claire have been in Scotland anyway if the Scots won and the Stuarts were returned to the throne?  It changes how history is written and there may not have even been surviving documents about Frank's ancestor who was an asshole up in Scotland.  Or Frank's ancestor would be treated as some more shameful branch of the family, like how people descended from slavers or Nazis feel- it might be perfectly interesting but one would be a whole lot less like to make a honeymoon out of it.  

The problem is that Claire doesn't know how this timey whimey thing works.  She doesn't know if the past can be changed.  There is no real way to test it, at least that she knows of.  At this point in the story, the audience is now aware that Claire and Jamie's time in Paris has merely served to do the exact opposite of what they've intended.  They've literally put all of the movers, shakers and money makers together.  

Loved King Louis.  I loved that they had so many reasons for him to be throwing shade at BJR.  It could be because he noticed Claire was not amused with him.  Or because Lord Parritch was clearly giving BJR the evil eye.  Or because Louis wanted to mock the British army a bit right before he maybe funds the rebellion.  Or a gazillion other reasons. It was just so perfect.  

[WatchrTina]

Watching this one three times in a row had its ups and downs.

THE GOOD

Jamie/Sam looks particularly fetching in the very first scene when he picks up Fergus and then kisses Claire.  I fell in love with him all over again.  Damn this episode for spending the first half making us sigh over the renewed closeness between our central couple, only to tear them asunder at the end.  Good drama but, Damn.

I do love that Claire calls Jamie out over the danger in his publically labeling her “La Dame Blanche” after her nearly being burned as a witch in Scotland. 

The Bonnie Prince looked particularly regal in this episode in his gold and silver ensemble.

Jamie & Le Comte’s conversation – that was made of win.  I love that each speaks his own language and makes no effort to accommodate the other.

Simon Callow’s face is a dream to watch.  He is inscrutable and yet at the same time you can easily imagine the scheming going on in there.

The acting from the moment BJR appears on the screen until the end is absolutely mesmerizing.  Bravos all around.  That being said, Tobias Menzies absolutely DOMINATED this episode.  The delivery of that one line, “Jamie?  He’s here?” followed by his whispered “Where?” had me absolutely shuddering.  His using his body to block Claire’s escape had me squirming in my chair in discomfort.  Later, when he puts his hand on Jamie’s chest I absolutely cried out in dismay.  Damn, he is so good at being bad.

I SO enjoyed all the subtext of the conversations with and in front of King Louis.  You just know he got the shade Claire was throwing when he asked if they were friends and she quietly scoffed and replied that they were merely “acquainted.”  You just know he understood the stilted and frostily polite conversation between Jamie and Jack and knew immediately that they were enemies.  I like to think that Louis humiliated Jack in part because he figured out that there was bad blood between him and Jamie & Claire and he has some interest in the two of them while Jack is decidedly an unimportant “other”.  But mostly I just think he was pissed off that an English military officer would wear his uniform to court.

 

THE BAD

I hated Claire’s conversations with Mary and later with Alex about their possible marriage.  The idea that the two of them could have arranged an engagement between them is absurd.  When?  How?  I cannot imagine the two of them being allowed any contact (in person or by letter) following the attack.  The only way I can fan-wank my way around this is to presume that words were exchanged in those early letters along the lines of “If only you were not engaged to the Vicomte, I would marry you myself” and now both of them are clinging to the possibility of that coming true without having discussed it further between them and despite that fact that that is NOT how marriages are arranged in 1744 in the social strata in which they both live.  But that is a massive stretch of the imagination and the implausibility of it takes me out of the episode. 

I don’t like the scene with apostle spoons.  I get what they are doing – giving us scenes of increasing marital happiness (so the discord at the end of the episode is more impactful) and showing us their shared concern over how they will raise their child (so future events will hurt even more.)  But I still find it unrealistic that Jamie would ask Jenny to ship something so valuable – a family heirloom – to France to the temporary quarters where they are living.  (Oooooh, I wonder if those spoons are going to show up again later when Claire needs something of value to pawn, replacing the pearls she uses in the book.  If so, I’ll get over my reservations.) 

Is it appropriate for Claire to call Annaliese by her first name?  She and Claire have only met once and furthermore she is a married (widowed) woman.  She refers to Claire as “Madam” so it surprises me that Claire does not respond in kind.  For that matter, Claire calls Alex by his first name too, though I guess I can overlook that given the intimacy of the conversation they were having.  But again, he calls her “Madame Fraser” at the very end.

The timeline of this episode is weird.  Jack comes to France because he learns his brother has lost his position with the Duke so enough time has to have passed for a letter to reach Scotland and for Jack to arrange for and make the journey to Paris.  That means days/weeks are passing between the attack, Alex’s release from prison, BPC visiting Jamie, Jamie meeting with Le Comte, and finally the visit to the royal stables.  But you don’t get that sense of time passing in the episode (at least I don’t) so Jack’s sudden arrival in France feels “off”.  BTW, didn’t Alex say he would mention meeting Jamie and Claire the next time he wrote his brother?  Shall we assume he forgot to do that or do we think Jack does not know that Jamie Fraser and “Lord Broch Turauch” are the same man?

I don’t understand why Jamie takes issue with Claire saying Frank is an “innocent.”  He scoffs and she goes on to clarify that “He’s done no injury to either of us.”  What is that about?  Jamie doesn’t know anything negative about Frank, right?  He just hates the idea of him.  If so, that beat in the dialog rings false.  Or do you think he's just making the point that no man in his 40s who has been through a war is "innocent."?

I hate the line, “You owe me a life.”  Is that from the book?  I hope not because if you are keeping score, Claire, Jamie has saved your life twice as well – pulling you out of BJR’s clutches (literally) and then saving you from the witch trial.  If that line is in the book I may re-think my criticism but for now I think that line is unfortunate.  I presume it was added to ramp up the rancor between them but I think it’s out of character for Claire to go there.

And finally, they were (alas) unable to address the big ‘ole plot hole in the book.  If Frank is not born then Claire can’t marry him and if she doesn’t marry him she won’t be in Scotland in the right place at the right time to travel back in time to meet Jamie.  If Frank is not born then Jamie could lose Claire and his unborn child -- both could simply cease to exist in 1744.  THAT’s the reason Jamie should forgo killing Jack for a year but that time-travel-paradox is never addressed in the book or the show.  Sigh.  It has bugged me for years.

 

THE UGLY

Annaliese is a bitch and I’m glad Terry gave her an ugly outfit to wear.

 

OTHER

I was disappointed by the conversation between Murtagh and Jamie.  I’ve been looking forward for years now to the scene from the book where Murtagh reveals the vow he made to Ellen when Jamie was born and Jamie realizes for the first time that Murtagh is not just his god-father but that he considers himself pledged to Jamie to the same extent that as all those guys at The Gathering consider themselves pledged to Colum.  The scene in this episode was okay.  I just miss the reveal of the vow to Ellen, though I guess they replaced it by having Murtagh vow to “lay just vengeance at [Jamie’s] feet or be damned.”

Edited May 7, 2016 by WatchrTina

[morgan]

That line about owing a life is in the book and Jamie eventually tells her that they were pretty equal on that front.  Although I think that conversation happens later.  I vaguely remember Jamie had another reason for actually agreeing to and I'm blanking.  Will need to check book later when I am home.

[Dust Bunny]

50 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I don’t understand why Jamie takes issue with Claire saying Frank is an “innocent.”  He scoffs and she goes on to clarify that “He’s done no injury to either of us.”  What is that about?  Jamie doesn’t know anything negative about Frank, right?  He just hates the idea of him.  If so, that beat in the dialog rings false.  Or do you think he's just making the point that no man in his 40s who has been through a war is "innocent."?

I think that's two-fold. First, I'm guessing Jamie thinks Frank's person is negligible when it comes to BJR. I don't think Jamie thinks he's not an innocent. It was more of a "whatever" shrugging dismissal. Second, I figure Jamie isn't incredibly rational during this scene. It isn't that he has any particular thing against Frank (unlike the jealousy that comes later).It's that Frank is an obstacle that's keeping Jamie from his vengeance. Jamie is a Fraser. They're stubborn as rocks, and you don't want to get in their way when their dander is up.

So I give Jamie quite a bit of slack in this scene. 

50 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

THE UGLY

Annaliese is a bitch and I’m glad Terry gave her an ugly outfit to wear.

Heh. So true. That pink was horrendous.

50 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

OTHER

I was disappointed by the conversation between Murtagh and Jamie.  I’ve been looking forward for years now to the scene from the book where Murtagh reveals the vow he made to Ellen when Jamie was born and Jamie realizes for the first time that Murtagh is not just his god-father but that he considers himself pledged to Jamie to the same extent that as all those guys at The Gathering consider themselves pledged to Colum.  The scene in this episode was okay.  I just miss the reveal of the vow to Ellen, though I guess they replaced it by having Murtagh vow to “lay just vengeance at [Jamie’s] feet or be damned.”

I figure the next episode is when they finally tell Murtagh about Claire's time traveling. He has to know the 180 of why the duel must be postponed. I'm curious how they write it. Maybe that could be the time when Murtagh mentions his vow to Ellen. It'll be a conversation of absolute truth. But it may be that that vengeance speech was all we'll get. They're shifting scenes around, so who knows. 

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

More and more, I'm losing faith I wilna get my healing hand and tears scene!!!!

I still think we're going to get this scene. Jamie is still wearing the hand brace/bandage, and we see in the credits that one hand is stroking another hand in tenderness.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[morgan]

Thanks!   I knew it was something to do with Frank but couldn't think exactly what.  That makes sense

[Petunia846]

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Annaliese is a bitch and I’m glad Terry gave her an ugly outfit to wear.

Ha! I almost ended up with guacamole on my computer. So true.

[Quickbeam]

Not much to add; this was my least favorite of the books by a mile and I am liking the show far more. Louis and BJR was my favorite part. Both actors really own their screen time. 

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

Deep down, I figured (or really, really hoped) Claire wouldn't burn that letter, but when she was contemplating it, I was like Guuuuuuuurl! And the whole "you owe me a life" Blech! I did not appreciate it in the book either. Claire, seriously!

I didn't really need more Annalise in my life either. Annoying! "When I knew him, he was a boy" Yeah, so what? You chose someone else so don't worry about it, lady. You gave up your chance to pick him and keep him in arrested development. I just really don't know what she wanted to say to Claire about it. It's bad he grew up? Or wow, look at that man there. She bugs no matter what. And you have no idea what has happened to him since you knew him. A lot more than just marrying Claire, so shut it, Annalise!

[Jodithgrace]

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never actually understood the drama around this issue in the books.  "If Frank doesn't exist, I won't marry him, I won't be in Scotland, and we will never exist."

This has always bugged me. It seems the the one argument that would convince Jamie, and Claire never uses it. 

It shouldn't have been a shock for Clare to see BJR, since she knows, or thinks she knows, that he's got to show up in order to marry and impregnate Mary  within the next year. It certainly wasn't going to happen in England or Scotland.

The acting on this show has been so amazing. In the Versailles scene, they all really ramped the tension up to incredible levels, just being polite to each other. And Jamie and Claire's fight? Gut wrenching!

Edited to add: Claire's drinking while pregnant does bother me, especially since she has so much future medical knowledge, but I have to remind myself that in the future she comes from, people didn't realize the dangers of drinking and smoking while pregnant. I was born in 1950 and my mother did both. 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Jodithgrace

[chocolatetruffle]

I agree with everyone else about the power in the last few scenes after BJR shows up. I was riveted and my stomach was in knots right from the getgo.  Loved the Louis section, too.  All the actors really brought it throughout.  I also totally swooned when Jamie carried wee Fergus to bed.

However I absolutely loathed Claire through most of this episode. Starting with her even considering leaving Alex in the Bastille for the sake of Frank; then watching her manipulate poor Alex, again for Frank, made me want to punch her; and finally, the "you owe me a life" scene was just gut-wrenching. On a shallow note, Sam looked extremely fetching in that last scene, but I digress. This episode was officially NULOCH* ("C" for Claire instead of the she-beast from GH) for me. It also bugs me (and really bugged me in the book) that Claire does not seem to care about the consequences for Mary of being married to that sadist who enjoys raping and degrading women as much as men.

This section of the series and book revolves around a giant plot-hole that really irks me anyway.  That is, they are trying to make a rather extreme change to history.  That means that everyone's history would change in ways they can't imagine.  Frank may end up never being born or Claire may never be born or any number of other variables may happen because of what they're doing.  So why balk at killing BJR (who everyone thought was dead) when they have already changed things - and if Frank is meant to be born, then he'll be born.  Or why not let the relationship happen between Mary and Alex come to its logical conclusion w/o interference, since their initial meeting wasn't tied to Claire & Jamie's plotting and therefore, we must assume, was supposed to happen.  I just get annoyed that it's o.k. to try to change the future one minute, until some event comes along that you think should not be changed. But just by being there in Paris in 1743 you've already changed the future.  Oh, never mind... it just makes my head hurt.

*NULOCH = No Upper Limit Of Claire Hate

[Tara Ariano]

Here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Outlander Lets Claire Embrace Her Inner Time Lord

Even separated by two centuries, Claire has trouble balancing the needs of her two husbands.

[MsProudSooner]

To me, Claire's entire motivation with regard to Frank in this episode was guilt.  She still feels guilty for choosing Jamie over Frank.  The thought that he might not ever exist because of Jamie's actions would be unbearable for her - and make her fell even more guilty..  

The moment that BJR started walking towards Claire, my heart started beating faster - and not in a good way.  I seldom have that kind of reaction to a TV show or movie.  Tobias simply owns the screen in that scene.  

[SandyToes]

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In short: he wanted Claire to have someone/somewhere to go in case their plans misfired and Jamie could no longer be around to protect her.  He laid it out to Claire the next day after their fight over duel, when they were traveling by carriage. It was a a great Jamie's scene IMO which added another layer to his personality.

I'm reading this book, having skipped it, I think, when I read the series, and this scene in the book just took my breath away. He emphatically makes her swear that if the time comes that he tries to send her back again, she must go.  If he sacrifices himself to save BJR in order to save Frank, she'd darn well better go back if the need arises.  Not enjoying the book on a whole, (which is why I probably skipped it before), but that scene was beyond powerful.

And agree that the scenes in the garden with BJR were mesmerizing. Nice to see so much sunshine, after last season in dreary, grey Scotland.

The whole time-travel/changing history thing just makes my head hurt.  Just have to suck it up and not think it through. I noticed last episode when Claire kept looking at her gold wedding ring, and wondering if it would fade out, a la Marty McFly.

[Dust Bunny]

1 hour ago, chocolatetruffle said:

However I absolutely loathed Claire through most of this episode. Starting with her even considering leaving Alex in the Bastille for the sake of Frank; then watching her manipulate poor Alex, again for Frank, made me want to punch her; and finally, the "you owe me a life" scene was just gut-wrenching. On a shallow note, Sam looked extremely fetching in that last scene, but I digress. This episode was officially NULOCH* ("C" for Claire instead of the she-beast from GH) for me. It also bugs me (and really bugged me in the book) that Claire does not seem to care about the consequences for Mary of being married to that sadist who enjoys raping and degrading women as much as men.

This section of the series and book revolves around a giant plot-hole that really irks me anyway.  That is, they are trying to make a rather extreme change to history.  That means that everyone's history would change in ways they can't imagine.  Frank may end up never being born or Claire may never be born or any number of other variables may happen because of what they're doing.  So why balk at killing BJR (who everyone thought was dead) when they have already changed things - and if Frank is meant to be born, then he'll be born.  Or why not let the relationship happen between Mary and Alex come to its logical conclusion w/o interference, since their initial meeting wasn't tied to Claire & Jamie's plotting and therefore, we must assume, was supposed to happen.  I just get annoyed that it's o.k. to try to change the future one minute, until some event comes along that you think should not be changed. But just by being there in Paris in 1743 you've already changed the future.  Oh, never mind... it just makes my head hurt.

*NULOCH = No Upper Limit Of Claire Hate

I don't disagree, but there was something that got my attention when I was watching the live airing that speaks to that, for me. Jamie has the line - which is in the book - "Do I have to bear everyone's weakness? Can I not have my own?" That's such an honest statement. Both Claire and Jamie are trying to change history for the macro good of the many. But when there are personal stakes, they - quite understandably - want to be selfish. 

Lately, I've been rewatching Quantum Leap when I get ready for bed, and this happens a couple times. In "putting things right that once went wrong," Sam Beckett tries to be the good guy and is constantly being selfless in bettering other people's lives. So it's understandable when he leaps into personal situations and wants to be selfish. I don't consider it selfish, I consider it human.

I hate Claire's behavior with Mary and Alex (two incredibly gentle and kind-hearted people). But when I think about how both Claire in her healing and Jamie in his leadership and stewardship are constantly caring for others and carrying other people's heavy loads (even those they may dislike), I remember all that they do for others. Few people can be selfless 100% of the time, and those people - as wonderful as they might be - might actually be boring people. Part of why I love Claire and Jamie is that they are dynamic people with complex emotions. They're beautifully imperfect. They're going to have personal reactions. So, in a way, I kind of appreciate the human weakness and honesty at play in this episode. 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[insubordination]

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On a side note I find it unsettling that Claire doesn't for a moment seem to feel for Mary and her destined marriage to BJR.  Even a passing horrified thought about it.  Did I miss that somewhere?

 

Yes, Frank may be innocent, but so is Mary.  Claire is determined to get what she wants, no matter what. She uses every tool in her arsenal to make it happen (you owe me!). Yet I can't hate her for being so driven and strident.  That quality is admirable in other scenarios, but infuriating here - that's Claire.

I do agree that it would have been better if Claire had  pointed out that if she had never married Frank, it would mean she wouldn't be standing here now. I would actually like a further "Can we really affect the future?" conversation.  The time travel element of this show is too often overlooked.

[peacefrog]

I thought the first half was dull and dragged a bit. To much talking and telling.  The exception was the long take at the opening of the episode, but I'm a huge fan of well placed ones. Once BJR arrived it was riveting. So good! 

I'm not sure about why Annalise is getting so much hate? She was remarking and complimenting how much Jamie has grown as a man. Is it because she credited the positives changes to Claire's influence and not because of Jamie? I liked her. 

I was anticipating Jamie telling Claire during their fight that BJR wanted to see his spunk run out of Jamie's bowels when he gets hanged. Horrible imagery but very effective for Jamie to get his point across even though he should have to convince Claire. 

Loved all the camera work, the garden scenes were great. 

[peacefrog]

Won't let me edit, was the 10,000 pounds the eventual Frenchmen's Gold? Probably not?

[WatchrTina]

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Louis welcomes Jack to his court before quickly insulting his accent, uniform, and countrymen's habit of "slaughtering each other" instead of sitting around eating bonbons salted with the tears of the proletariat.

That's the best single line I've read in a recap in a very long time.

[Hybiscus]

I finally realized that Claire only cares about changing the future when it suits her.  The whole crux of season 2/DiA is to change history, and yet she's not concerned about Frank when BJR is supposedly trampled to death by cows; later (in a previous episode) she notes that BPC's plan of united England & France cant work because the two countries won't be allies for another 100 or so years.  But now it's all about keeping the history in tact so that Frank can come into existence.  pfft!

Claire gets a big old raspberry from me in this episode. 

Spoiler

(Of course, it turns out that her concern for BJR's life is moot re: Frank's existence.  So all this meddling was for naught, except to make for two tragic characters, Mary & Alex.)

[Archery]

Mary could have been sent back to England and married BJR there. She has no more reason to be in France since she's not marrying Vicomte Wartface. 

I cut Claire some slack over not thinking through the time paradox. She does not have a frame of reference like we do. She has no Doctor Who or Star Trek (City On The Edge Of Forever) or really any science fiction or fantasy (except, perhaps H.G. Wells) as potential illustrations.

[Jodithgrace]

What Claire really needed was Marty McFly's disappearing photograph from Back To The Future. "Look..Frank's fading..there go his feet!"

[Helena Dax]

16 hours ago, areca said:

I never actually understood the drama around this issue in the books.  "If Frank doesn't exist, I won't marry him, I won't be in Scotland, and we will never exist."  It was a one sentence conversation.  Two if you accept that the next sentence is "Oh."

That's an argument I would have used too, but to be fair, no one knows how time travel works. Changing the past could create a new timeline while keeping the old original one like an old version which is still there, out of reach. So there would be no time paradox, but no Frank either ( if BJR had been his ancestor), since he'd belong to an out-of-service timeline. Or Jamie could have replied that the changes they want to do are even bigger than killing BJR and would probably lead to a non-existing Frank and a non-existing Claire. 

Loved when the King humiliated BJR in front of Jamie and Claire, hahahaha. It was dislike at first sight, but I think the King decided to go for the jugular when he realized the Frasers couldn't stand BJR.

But, god, that last scene! Poor Claire! Poor Jamie!

[Haleth]

With all the Claire loathing at this point (and I agree, she's pretty annoying right now) I look forward to the scene when she figures out that Alex is the father of Mary's child, not BJR.  I want to see her face when she thinks back to this fight and realizes how horrible she was to Jamie, all for nothing.  Having BJR turn up alive after being trampled by a herd of cows should have been her first clue that she can't meddle with history.  Frank will be born, one way or another.  

The Versailles scene and the Claire/Jamie fight scene were some of the best television I've seen in a long time.  Kudos all around.

Couple things to add:  About Claire drinking, I tell myself she's only taking a small sip.  No harm to the baby.  About Annalise's "man" comment, I took that as her complimenting Claire on taking an immature, rash, hedonistic? kid and turning him into the sophisticated, charismatic man.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Haleth

[nodorothyparker]

I have to try very hard to remember in both this book and this season that Claire doesn't really have any idea how time travel works yet to not find her utterly despicable.  Time travel as a genre didn't really exist much in her own time yet and she has nothing to go on other than a single accidental trip through the stones and Gellis claiming without any sort of elaboration to be from the '60s.  When Black Jack was believed trampled to death, there really wasn't time or headspace to consider the ramifications of that for her own timeline.

Even saying that, she's really hard to like or root for through this entire section of the story for a lot of the reasons already mentioned.  Mary has just been through this terrible trauma and she and Alex both seem like gentle decent people, but Claire is willing to disregard their feelings and free agency because she knows better.  She's willing to disregard even basic good judgment to see her bruised and timid "friend" paired up with a man she knows is a sadistic rapist.  All on the basis of a dusty genealogy she saw once and has no way of knowing whether it was even accurate or not.  She's also truly awful to still suffering Jamie, asking him to put aside all of his feelings and all of his needs for what to him is a purely hypothetical person and a hypothetical future.  Her entire existence in the past is already a huge butterfly wing flapping.  They're trying to change the course of history on a fairly large scale and only now when it's personal to her is she willing to consider what the fallout of that might be.  Not for all the births or deaths or other ways history will have to alter if they're successful, but for Frank and how his existence puts her at that spot to go through the stones at that particular moment in the first place.  And even in that bigger picture moment, she doesn't articulate any of it to Jamie.  Just blah blah blah Frank and did I mention that you owe me for saving your life when I put it in peril on more than one occasion.  

I'll admit I was initially disappointed to not get the book "don't ever say my name until you're pleading for your life with your dying breath" scene from the book, but this works for me too.  There was so much seething and internal screaming going on when they were all standing before the king I'm kind of surprised they could even hear each other and all three actors were totally bringing it.  The royal court is the ultimate overdressed mean girls club with the king at the epicenter, continually referring to himself in the third person.  I loved the brightness of the colors and set up of all those outdoor scenes at Versailles.  They were all completely dazzling to look at, yet they still managed to make it feel like the sun had suddenly gone in from the first frame you could see the out of focus Black Jack coming up behind Claire.  

Edited May 8, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Archery]

As much as I loathe BJR as a character, I did find myself feeling a teensy bit bad for him when Louis was humiliating him.  And then I looked at Jamie and mentally slapped myself.  But the writing, acting, and direction all came together magically:  the long pauses; the incomprehension on BJR's face dissolving into resignation and hate (Menzies is amazing); the blocking; Jamie's forced laughter at BJR's expense -- not so much humor but sending a message; and Claire's "oh, f*ck!" face the whole time.  Just beautifully done.  

I guess I'll sit here at my table for one, because I don't think Claire did anything wrong.  Everything she said about Mary and Alex living in poverty (him having been fired by the Duke without a reference -- and her family would toss her out on her ear) was true. Heartbreaking, but true. And it's obvious that she does not know how time travel works, or what the ramifications of her actions will be.  She doesn't find out until she gets back to 1948 or whenever that the big things can't or won't be changed.  She is trying to preserve the status quo: that Frank is born and marries her.  I think it's equal parts that she loves Frank and wants him to live and that she does not know what will happen if he is never born.  The course of action benefits her, sure, but I don't see it as being atrociously selfish.  Likewise, I understand Jamie's need for revenge right now, but he needs to keep his eye on the ball.  

That last scene, though.  I think I was holding my breath.  DG teased it on Facebook as being "perfect." She was right.

[WatchrTina]

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I finally realized that Claire only cares about changing the future when it suits her.  The whole crux of season 2/DiA is to change history, and yet she's not concerned about Frank when BJR is supposedly trampled to death by cows;

Weel, I don't think it's that she's not concerned as much as that there is nothing she can do about it at that point.  IIRC at the end of Outlander she and Jamie actually discuss the paradox of her still having Frank's wedding ring.  How can she have that if Frank will never be born?  They don't understand it. They believe that Jack has died years before the date Claire saw on Frank's family tree, and years before his only child is born.  They are puzzled by it  but there is nothing to be done but wonder.  When they learn that Jack survived and when Claire actually meets Mary Hawkins then the truth comes crashing down on her that that poor child has to end up married to that "sadistic piece of shit" in order for Frank to come into existence.  BookClaire is horrified.  She does nothing to try to bring that marriage into being but she DOES try to stop Jamie from killing the groom before it happens.  I prefer that take to what we saw on the screen last night.  I hated Claire playing an active role in trying to steer Mary into a marriage with Jack, especially since I think it is not necessary to the plot.  Claire didn't have to prevent Mary and Alex from becoming engaged to one another because that could NEVER HAPPEN in the milieu in which this story takes place.  At this point in the story Mary is not being allowed out of the house, Alex would clearly not be allowed in, and it seems unlikely that they would be able to get letters to one another given the current state of affairs.  How exactly have they come to an understanding that they are going to marry (and what on earth would make them think that Mary's uncle would let them?)  Yup, I hate that change in the story.

I've deliberately not re-read DIA recently because I think I will enjoy the show more if I'm not having constant book-vs-show debates in my head but my memory from the book is that Mary ends up looking after the ailing Alex in Edinburgh because she runs away from home to be with him when she learns he is dying.  THAT I can buy.  But a girl who has just had her world shattered by rape and by the end or her long-planned engagement to a member of the nobility -- a girl who has very little experience in the world and who is being held as a virtual captive by an unfeeling uncle -- that girl I cannot imagine having the wherewithal to negotiate a secret engagement under the disapproving nose of her uncle.

Edited May 8, 2016 by WatchrTina

[AheadofStraight]

18 hours ago, Grashka said:

Yes, he had another reason and paradoxically it was also directly related to Frank. In short: he wanted Claire to have someone/somewhere to go in case their plans misfired and Jamie could no longer be around to protect her.  He laid it out to Claire the next day after their fight over duel, when they were traveling by carriage. It was a a great Jamie's scene IMO which added another layer to his personality. I wonder if they are going to include it in next episode.

Spoiler

It does look like it will be included based on this preview

 

[chocolatetruffle]

12 hours ago, Dust Bunny said:

I don't disagree, but there was something that got my attention when I was watching the live airing that speaks to that, for me. Jamie has the line - which is in the book - "Do I have to bear everyone's weakness? Can I not have my own?" That's such an honest statement. Both Claire and Jamie are trying to change history for the macro good of the many. But when there are personal stakes, they - quite understandably - want to be selfish.

This line was one of my favorite lines of the episode and I do think the two actors were amazing at bringing out each character's motivations during this scene.  

Upon second watch there were other moments that stood out for me.  One was when BJR, upon seeing Claire again, says "Jamie" in that vile way that implies a certain intimacy - the look on Claire's face was a-freaking-mazing.  CB masterfully revealed the revulsion I was feeling - it made my skin crawl. I also loved any scene where Jamie shows his power and there were several. But the one I loved the most was when he quietly told St. Germain that the man who attacked his wife would die a slow and painful death, while smiling!  That was so cold-blooded.  Actually, that whole scene was brilliant as both characters, not willing to give an inch, refused to speak the other's language even though they both understood each other.  It was a brilliant powerplay that was indicative of the power struggle going on throughout that scene. The actor who plays St. Germain is awesome.

[WatchrTina]

Today I learned what a "clarty midden" is.  Clarty means "dirty" and a midden is a rubbish heap.  So when Jamie calls Murtagh that during their talk and tells him to get some rest he's basically teasing Murtagh the same way Mrs. Fitz did when he arrived at Leogh in ep 102.

[nodorothyparker]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

She does nothing to try to bring that marriage into being but she DOES try to stop Jamie from killing the groom before it happens.  I prefer that take to what we saw on the screen last night.  I hated Claire playing an active role in trying to steer Mary into a marriage with Jack, especially since I think it is not necessary to the plot.  Claire didn't have to prevent Mary and Alex from becoming engaged to one another because that could NEVER HAPPEN in the milieu in which this story takes place.  At this point in the story Mary is not being allowed out of the house, Alex would clearly not be allowed in, and it seems unlikely that they would be able to get letters to one another given the current state of affairs.  How exactly have they come to an understanding that they are going to marry (and what on earth would make them think that Mary's uncle would let them?)  Yup, I hate that change in the story.

I've deliberately not re-read DIA recently because I think I will enjoy the show more if I'm not having constant book-vs-show debates in my head but my memory from the book is that Mary ends up looking after the ailing Alex in Edinburgh because she runs away from home to be with him when she learns he is dying.  THAT I can buy.  But a girl who has just had her world shattered by rape and by the end or her long-planned engagement to a member of the nobility -- a girl who has very little experience in the world and who is being held as a virtual captive by an unfeeling uncle -- that girl I cannot imagine having the wherewithal to negotiate a secret engagement under the disapproving nose of her uncle.

I hate it too because it makes Claire so much worse than she was in the book at this point in the story.  She's still hard to take because she just refuses to understand what she's demanding of Jamie because Frank, Frank, Frank.  But in the book she's more of a passive bystander whose biggest culpability in the Alex-Mary-Black Jack story is in not bothering to clue her "good friend" Mary into a few hard truths about her intended bridegroom until they're all back in Scotland and the die is already cast.  Here, she's actively trying to force everyone into the slots she thinks they should be in, again because she once saw a genealogy page and thinks therefore she knows best.

It's an odd sort of change because they sort of are addressing the financial roadblock to such a marriage taking place, with the mention of the Duke discharging Alex and Black Jack's stated reason of being in Paris in the first place to try to get that job back.  I don't think we're ever told in the book why he's there beyond him being the Duke's surprise house guest.  We even get mention this episode that her uncle is keeping her shut up in the house but that Claire managed to get in anyway.  The entire storyline requires Mary to be showing a lot more agency and backbone than the Mary we've been shown who can't even get a sentence out.

Edited May 8, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Dust Bunny]

1 hour ago, AheadofStraight said:

  Hide contents

It does look like it will be included based on this preview

 

Europe and Canada always get the better promos.

This episode looks amazing. A mix of character moments and key plot happenings. I keep wanting the weeks to come faster. Yet, the faster the episodes come, the sooner the season is over. I gotta work on my patience.

[nodorothyparker]

That promo makes me think we are going to see the same motivation for what sparked off the duel despite earlier speculation that maybe they'd resist going to that well just once.

[WatchrTina]

Diana posted this on the CompuServe forum:

Quote

Did anyone notice that the barbed exchange between Jamie and Black Jack was a two-way?  I.e., Jamie asks if he was run over by sheep?   And then when Jamie says he hopes Jack is recovered (not), Jack replies that he still has trouble getting out of bed on a cold morning--which is an obvious reference to the last time he saw Jamie, naked and broken and unable even to roll off the bed in the dungeon at Wentworth. 

--Diana

Oh. My. God.  I did not make that connection but now that it's been pointed out I will never be able to un-see it (or rather, un-hear it.)

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

That promo makes me think we are going to see the same motivation for what sparked off the duel despite earlier speculation that maybe they'd resist going to that well just once.

Maybe we won't see it, but hear a scream? That's my hope.

And I ken I'm acting like a wee brat, no' to mention a broken record, but I wants me healed hand, crying and   emotional moment, dammit!!!!!

[WatchrTina]

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I wants me healed hand, crying and   emotional moment, dammit!!!!!

There is an image in the opening credits that I took to be Claire caressing Jamie's injured, scarred, but now recovered hand.  That makes me think you MAY get your wish.