S07.E22: End

[HawaiiTVGuy]

14 hours ago, meisje said:

 

first off, sorry Meisje, accidentally quoted a random post you made, but didn't mean to and can't cancel/delete the entire thing.  Just wanted to let you know so you would know that what I am about to post isn't directly related to anything you said.

This was probably the worst Series Finale of a show that had originally had quite a bit of promise.  As many have mentioned, what is with Alicia being the "negotiator" in all of the plea offers?  And the whole "need to discredit Kurt" thing was just stupid.  They didn't have any questions for Holly, so how are they going to discredit her findings, imply they colluded just because Kurt was tinged?  The only thing about this whole episode that interested me, what was Lucca's proposed solution to case when Alicia and Diane were shouting at each other and Lucca was trying to get a word in edgewise.  I just heard her keep trying to pipe in and say "there is another way" etc. but of course she was being ignored.  That is all.

[CaptainCranky]

Well that's 40 minutes (I DVR) of my life I'll never get back. What a screwed up final show. I guess I should have known the way the show went downhill that this was what to expect.

The only redeeming fragments of the show that mattered for me in the end was Lucca, Eli and Cary.

Alicia, Diana, Will, Peter and Jason were deal breakers in the end for me.

Diane slapping Alica, whatever and bringing back Will, lame.

[AudienceofOne]

8 hours ago, Noreaster said:

Oh good grief, talk about conflating fact and fiction.  isn't there a gossip thread for this type of stuff?

I think any actress would kill for a part this complex and nuanced, especially when they're over 30 and JM's acting throughout has been exceptional. I find it laughable people think she's being 'punished' when she was just handed the kind of ambiguous, complex scene any actor could wish for. I didn't like it but she's no doubt counting her blessings. She acted the shit out of this, as she always does.

I've referred to this look she got on her face whenever she was talking to Jason about her feelings as her 'Will face'. And this episode just proved that that look was completely deliberate. And that I, as the viewer, could see she was secretly yearning for Will the whole time she was bouncing around eating pizza and having post-coital TV binge watches, just shows what an exceptional actor she is.

I personally don't give a shit what happens behind the scenes. I only care what's on screen. And what was on screen was 85% excellent. I think the writers, as interesting and philosophical as they were, crawled up their own asses in this season and it shows. There is no way I see Alicia as being Peter in that hallway, no way the worm has turned so she's now the abuser. She's a flawed human being but she is not corrupt. Contrary to popular opinion she never cheated. She also never took bribes or committed electoral fraud - all things Peter did.

My problem with that scene is that the Kings are doing exactly what they've been criticising society for doing: using a double standard for women's behaviour. So Alicia is now Peter, even though Peter is a double-dealing, cheating, criminal and Alicia is not. And I have no idea why Dianne would dissolve their partnership when she hasn't before. What Alicia did is no different to what Diane has done to her over the years. she was pragmatic enough to form this partnership in the first place when she clearly hated Alicia. She'll be pragmatic tomorrow as well.

Edited May 9, 2016 by AudienceofOne

[Tetraneutron]

Yeah. It seemed weird how the entire final episode was just DESTROYING Diane and making her look horrible. The show started with Alicia, who sacrificed her career for her marriage, being a weak, pathetic nobody, humiliated in a high-profile way while her husband cheated on her in the most cliched way possible, with a younger, hotter, blonde. The last episode is all of that happening to Diane.  Especially since the final two episodes made such a big, underscored point of showing how far Alicia had come from being that woman. Both Canning and Connor attempt to bring Alicia down by acting like she's some weak woman who will cry and collapse if they bring up her husband's affair, and the show plays Alicia rolling her eyes at that like it's some big feminist victory. (Which made me roll my eyes pretty hard). 

And what we do see, is Diane, big powerful lawyer, being the one who does collapse, stop thinking straight, almost tank the trial, and otherwise act emotional and throw her career away for the sake of her may-un. I'm not sure what we're supposed to think about that. 

[ichbin]

23 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I agree that the silence on the witness stand was the shock of Diane leaving the courtroom not a definitive admission of guilt.  BUT if he did have the affair, did it even matter since just a little while back Diane and he rebooted their marriage, finally moving in together full time and him retiring?  They agreed to move forward so I don't think this is the end of Kurt and Diane.  But all that is beside the point. 

I'm not sure, but wasn't it suggested in an earlier show that Kurt had had the affair with Holly in the past while she was his student?  In the last one or two episodes Kurt was upset with Diane because following her instruction had put his integrity in question and he seemed to place a greater value on that than his marriage.  I thought Diane becoming upset and walking out of the courtroom was because she believed the new shot against Kurt's honesty on the stand would be impossible for him to forgive and he would be holding Diane accountable for it happening.  Diane basically had told Alicia she would have to be dismissed  if they decided to use Kurt on the stand, and that didn't happen Diane was blaming Alicia for killing her marriage, hence the slap.

[pennben]

2 hours ago, wendyg said:

 The Diane slap felt like, "Someone has to slap Alicia. Who, do you think?",

That's exactly what happened!  The King's had decided that the show was going to end with a slap and then filled in the blanks!  Per their interview with Variety:

Quote

We had a sit-down in our writers’ room about two to three months ago about the ending. And we had always had on our whiteboard, about the ending, the word “SLAP.”

Edited May 9, 2016 by pennben
originally linked to wrong article. Fixed.

[Tetraneutron]

3 minutes ago, pennben said:

That's exactly what happened!  The King's had decided that the show was going to end with a slap and then filled in the blanks!  Per their interview with Variety:

See, that's the problem. They put symbolism over telling a story that made sense for the characters. I get that they wanted to subvert audience expectations by having Alicia end up with nothing: no love, no husband, no law firm, no political career. But did they have to either destroy or ignore every other character to do it?

[Attatude]

I kept watching the clock, thinking, there are 15 minutes left, when is something going to happen to wrap it all up? At about 10 to 10 I realized they weren't going to resolve anything, and that is fine, too. I wrote my own ending.  Jason is gone, Alicia and Diane continue as if nothing has happened, and really, nothing has. Kurt had the affair before he was married. He and Diane are perfect together because she is a ruthless destroyer and he is definitely her better half. He is a good person, she is what she is.  Alicia decides politics are more destructive than the law, which she is very good at, and she becomes a name partner. Grace goes to college and Alicia learns it's not so bad to be alone for a while. She waits for another Will. Jason is no Will.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Attatude

[tom87]

So do we have a final tabulation of the the law firm's different names?

[pennben]

Assuming the fictional world continues on off-screen, I'm going to go with:

this number

Edited May 9, 2016 by pennben

[TigerLynx]

I didn't think about Peter wanting to sabotage whatever plans Eli might have for Alicia.  I thought Peter was just humoring Alicia about agreeing to the divorce because he didn't think she would go through with it.  That's why Peter was surprised when Alicia didn't take his hand at the end of the speech.  Every time Peter tells Alicia I just need one more favor, one more thing, etc., and then we can get a divorce, Alicia agrees.  Peter could be saying I just need one thing for the next hundred years, and Alicia would agree.  Jason knew that, he knew that before Alicia ever said wait for me, and he didn't seem all that interested in hanging around for any reason in the first place.  Why the writers were trying to sell Peter/Alicia/Jason as a triangle, I don't know.  I didn't see even one of these people as actually being in love, let alone all three of them.

Diane can't fire Alicia and Lucca.  They are partners.  If she wants to get rid of them, she has to buy them out, or Diane has to get them to buy her out.  This is yet another reason why the law firms changing names and partners every two months is so dumb.  It costs lots of money to do this.  It's not like going into work and handing in your two week notice.

[wonderwoman]

2 hours ago, CaptainCranky said:

Well that's 40 minutes (I DVR) of my life I'll never get back. 

Took you that long:)?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

After Alicia told Ghost Will "Jason isn't you," I was hoping that she would imagine coming home and no one was there because she'd rather be alone than settle for someone like Jason. But no, she had to go chasing after Jason because she can't be happy without a man. 

Side note: does anyone remember a cartoon where this lady (maybe a cavewoman?) would yell, "A MAN!" and lose her mind?

[ichbin]

18 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

After Alicia told Ghost Will "Jason isn't you," I was hoping that she would imagine coming home and no one was there because she'd rather be alone than settle for someone like Jason. But no, she had to go chasing after Jason because she can't be happy without a man. 

Side note: does anyone remember a cartoon where this lady (maybe a cavewoman?) would yell, "A MAN!" and lose her mind?

Around the one minute mark:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3X6YB1Vclw 

Edited May 10, 2016 by ichbin
Link

[Inquisitionist]

6 hours ago, MakeMeLaugh said:

I wanted one of the kitchen door scenes to open up to a giant dancing glass of red wine. Perhaps animated. Like the Koolaid Pitcher character. Maybe the Koolaid Pitcher full of red wine.

LMAO.  Thank you for these images!

[lidarose9]

About the slap: throughout this show, Alicia has been learning what it takes to swim with these sharks. To be a winner in this game, you have to focus on any advantage to the exclusion of all else, including common sense, ethics, or loyalty. All the the lawyers on this show have demonstrated that to us over and over again. Alicia has finally transformed herself into the person she aspired to be, the cynical, two-faced 'killer' who can ruin her friend's marriage without batting an eye. We've seen over and over their complete and utter disregard for the consequences to *anybody* who gets caught in the crossfire (like Will did, literally). Why should Diane's marriage be sacrosanct? Diane was utterly naive to think Alicia would cut her any slack. She would have done the same herself, in a heartbeat.

On the other hand, is this someone you want as a partner? As a friend? NO. Is this someone anybody would want to know? Not really. Not that I want to give the show credit for anything, but this is the logical conclusion to what we've been shown. Alicia will go into politics and capitalize on everything she's learned both as a lawyer and a good wife. This is a statement on what it takes to be a successful lawyer these days and a successful candidate for political office.

Edited May 10, 2016 by lidarose9

[doodlebug]

Quote

Not that anyone really cares, but her testimony made no sense. Her friend is actively on the phone with 911 and she's leaving? Literally seconds before her friend is shot? 

It especially made no sense since the reason the victim was calling 911 was because someone was trying to break into her house.  So, Sutton Foster is visiting her friend, somebody tries to break in and she goes outside and leaves?  Why wasn't she speaking to 911 too?And, despite the fact that the murder takes place just seconds later, she saw nothing, hear nothing, was never even identified as a witness?  Even if she'd somehow managed to leave without seeing the murderer or getting murdered herself, wouldn't she have contacted the police to let them know what she was there just moments before?  Wouldn't she have been thoroughly interviewed about all of this years ago?  Wouldn't the police have examined the 911 tape long ago and figured out that the background noise was a ringtone?

 

The only reason I can figure Diane could be pissed at Alicia for having Lucca ask Kurt about his relationship to the blonde is because Alicia learned about it via Diane telling her about the deal to buy Kurt's business at a fraction of its worth.  If Diane hadn't told her that piece of info, she couldn't have used it to try to minimize the damage from Kurt's testimony.  There's also the fact that they all knew the jury wasn't going to hear any of this stuff and that the judge was likely to either not allow the testimony or they were going to take the plea bargain anyway, so it wasn't really necessary to ask Kurt about the blonde. 

 

Of course, the whole thing overall makes no sense in that Kurt had already testified that his preliminary results tended to exonerate the defendant and their premise, that he would perjure himself to protect the reputation of his mistress whose testimony, on another ballistics test entirely, contradicted his.  Experts testimony conflicts all the time, Kurt is a professional who has earned his living testifying in court; why would he risk all that by lying about the results of the second round of tests?  He explained why the two sets of tests gave different results and it was a far more plausible explanation than that he was trying to help boost the rep of his mistress at the expense of his wife's client.

Edited May 10, 2016 by doodlebug

[dinkysquid]

Bye bye discussions about The Wig, Alicia and Diane's wardrobes and how this show lost it's mojo. 

Sigh....another disappointing ending. Why do I find myself lately always crying out in disbelief, "That's IT?!!!!!" The only show whose ending I was 100% happy with was Justified. Now they knew how to end a show! 

Did like the slap though. And my hope is that Jason rode off into the sunset.....alone. And Kurt and Diane divorced because they didn't have much of a marriage to begin with.

[AudienceofOne]

3 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

Yeah. It seemed weird how the entire final episode was just DESTROYING Diane and making her look horrible

Not just this episode. This season. Diane was the epitome originally of what Alicia could strive to be. A powerful, ethical, mature woman at the top of her game. By the time the firm had its sixth (??) name change and she was trying to get rid of Carey in favour of Alicia, I couldn't believe how the character had been assassinated.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

40 minutes ago, ichbin said:

Around the one minute mark:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3X6YB1Vclw 

Ha, thank you so much for finding that for me! I couldn't remember which cartoon it was from and doing a search for "cartoon" and "a man" on youtube didn't do much. Whenever I mention a character who needs a man, I always hear it the way the cartoon lady says it: "A MAAAAAN!!!" as in Alicia thinks she needs A MAAAAAAN!!

[Ms Blue Jay]

7 hours ago, MakeMeLaugh said:

I wanted one of the kitchen door scenes to open up to a giant dancing glass of red wine. Perhaps animated. Like the Koolaid Pitcher character. Maybe the Koolaid Pitcher full of red wine.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[pennben]

38 minutes ago, dinkysquid said:

Sigh....another disappoining ending. Why do I find myself lately always crying out in disbelief, "That's IT?!!!!!" The only show whose ending I was 100% happy with was Justified. Now they knew how to end a show!

I think a big part of the problem is writers/show runners have this fantastic ending in mind when they start the show, but then things happen and they aren't willing to let go of the ending they always visualized even though it no longer fits the show as it played out.

For instance, let's assume HIMYM ended before they extended the run many more years than they thought possible.  Ted getting together with Robin could have been fantastic, maybe four or five years into the show.  But it wasn't fantastic anymore by the end, but they decided that because they filmed the kids early on with that ending (because of course the kids would have been aged out), that by god, they were going to use it.

And here, they had always had in mind that they would come back to the "slap" for the finale and that was the seven year plan.  Let's think about this, assuming Josh Charles doesn't leave and Archie Panjabi doesn't leave, I can vaguely in my mind see how there is a finale here that is fantastic with the show as originally imagined.  However, they both did leave, and now the "slap" goes from an ending that could be fascinating, to an ending trying to figure out who is the one to slap Alicia. 

Interestingly enough, I'm less condemning of creators keeping in the scene they always imagined in the finale of Lost, because a scene of Jack lying down on the ground looking straight up, as the creators always planned, is fantastic.  It's just that the rest of that final story needed help.  But that scene...you're damn right, that's something fantastic for your finale.

Edited May 10, 2016 by pennben

[Driad]

It was better than the series finale of "Dexter." Although that is a rather low bar. :-)

[Ms Blue Jay]

Seinfeld is my least favourite, HIMYM was worse than TGW I think, LOST may have been worse only because I love the show so much.  This wasn't horrible it was just very boring and everyone will forget about it.  #Sorrynotsorry

[AudienceofOne]

5 minutes ago, Driad said:

It was better than the series finale of "Dexter." Although that is a rather low bar. :-)

That season sucked so much I had wiped it from my memory. This ending will no doubt consign this show to the dustbin of history in the same way.

[pennben]

I know a lot of folks don't like Shonda Rhimes, but I did love that years ago she said she had an ending for Grey's Anatomy in mind when she started the show, and then ripped it up and threw it into the trash bin at some point.

Edited May 10, 2016 by pennben
spelling is important

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

...what we do see, is Diane, big powerful lawyer, being the one who does collapse, stop thinking straight, almost tank the trial, and otherwise act emotional and throw her career away for the sake of her may-un. I'm not sure what we're supposed to think about that. 

I've been thinking poor Christine Baranski. They did the same thing to her on The Big Bang Theory this past week.

[Tetraneutron]

30 minutes ago, pennben said:

I know a lot of folks don't like Shonda Rhimes, but I did love that years ago she said she had an ending for Grey's Anatomy in mind when she started the show, and then ripped it up and threw it into the trash bin at some point.

She also refused to put up with drama from her actors and fired people who caused it, even if their characters were popular. Just saying. 

Looking back on this show, it surprises me that they contracted most of the main actors for six or seven seasons but only signed their male lead to four seasons. There are plenty of good-looking men in Hollywood; you would think they could find one other guy who would be willing to sign on for the whole thing and not force them to torpedo their story. 

I'd still watch a spinoff about Eli running political campaigns and being slimy. I know I'm in the minority here, but I thought the politics stuff was consistently the most entertaining part of the show. 

[HawaiiTVGuy]

4 hours ago, Attatude said:

I kept watching the clock, thinking, there are 15 minutes left, when is something going to happen to wrap it all up? At about 10 to 10 I realized they weren't going to resolve anything, and that is fine, too. I wrote my own ending.  Jason is gone, Alicia and Diane continue as if nothing has happened, and really, nothing has. Kurt had the affair before he was married. He and Diane are perfect together because she is a ruthless destroyer and he is definitely her better half. He is a good person, she is what she is.  Alicia decides politics are more destructive than the law, which she is very good at, and she becomes a name partner. Grace goes to college and Alicia learns it's not so bad to be alone for a while. She waits for another Will. Jason is no Will.

Even better, you can just imagine that they followed through with the original plea agreement instead of the ridiculous notion of a witness communication throwing things completely out of wack, causing all the discord in Club Fem.

[jjj]

This finale does not ruin the rest of the earlier seasons for me, while the finale of "How I Met Your Mother" ruined all the other episodes (the creators said they knew the ending from the very beginning), and I have never watched it again after that betrayal of a finale.  But TGW finale is a shrug of a finale, and I plan to go back to the early seasons and start to watch them in order, mainly for the cases and Diane and Cary, who grew more than anyone in this series.  Others regressed or became caricatures, but Cary struggled and developed as a lawyer and as a person. 

[ichbin]

2 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

I'd still watch a spinoff about Eli running political campaigns and being slimy. I know I'm in the minority here, but I thought the politics stuff was consistently the most entertaining part of the show. 

I would definitely watch a spin-off starring Eli and Ruth Eastman.  That would be great, and particularly  awesome if they could write in a few appearances by my other favorite, David Lee.    I loved that David Lee's last big scene was when he came out of his office after zoning out with his MP3 player to discover all the construction work that had been going on.  He was always a great character throughout the entire series.

[Ursula Parrott]

Quote

In the last one or two episodes Kurt was upset with Diane because following her instruction had put his integrity in question and he seemed to place a greater value on that than his marriage.  I thought Diane becoming upset and walking out of the courtroom was because she believed the new shot against Kurt's honesty on the stand would be impossible for him to forgive and he would be holding Diane accountable for it happening.  Diane basically had told Alicia she would have to be dismissed  if they decided to use Kurt on the stand, and that didn't happen Diane was blaming Alicia for killing her marriage, hence the slap.

Ichbin nails it, imo.  Integrity not fidelity as the primary issue. I was hoping Peter would name Diane to the Supreme Court of Illinois on his way out since Alicia ruined her marriage  

So the stealth move of the ballot boxes was just something Peter did and got away with? I guess I can buy that, but not the notion that Alicia remains political catnip. She's the long-suffering wife of a sleazy governor with delusions of presidential grandeur, who never did a single discernable positive thing for the State of Illinois and someone who also surrendered her principles only to fail in an election. But hey, she gives a mean hand job in public.  

[LakeLover]

I haven't watched in a year and a half, and only just watched because I heard Will was back. Seeing him makes me realize why I walked away - he brought a real richness to the series that evaporated when he left. I watched for a while once he left, but the shift away from law and toward politics did me in - and I'm a political junkie. I'm left with realizing the only "finale" that was ever satisfying to me was the end of season 6 of "ER," when Carol left Chicago to go to Seattle and Doug. To me, that was the end of ER.

[Dowel Jones]

Maybe they should have gone with an Airplane-style ending, where Diane slaps Alicia, walks off, but is followed by Lucca, then Eli, then Alicia's mom, then Peter's mom, then Alicia's kids....

[AndySmith]

Quote

And then Ghost Will tries to smooth her ratchet wig one last time, because its shittiness is obvious EVEN TO THE DEAD.

I got more enjoyment from that line in the recap than I did from the episode itself. Although the slap was nice. And as much as I never liked Will, it was nice to see him back and for Alicia to get some closure.

But otherwise, it was...meh. Definitely not a great finale. It wasn't horrible, but it could have been much better. But at least the show is done with. And at the end of the day, we got 5 really good seasons with the show, and 2 mediocre seasons. Not a bad accomplishment overall. Especially in this day and age when the traditional network format isn't doing so well. The first 5 seasons gave us 112 episodes, and how many TV shows today, on network or otherwise, can give us that? Not too many. So while this show did overstay it's welcome, it was still a good top quality show for much of it's run, and as blah as it got in the last few seasons, not gonna lie, I will miss it.

Somewhere, though, Archie Panjabi must be laughing her ass off.

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, ichbin said:

I'm not sure, but wasn't it suggested in an earlier show that Kurt had had the affair with Holly in the past while she was his student?  In the last one or two episodes Kurt was upset with Diane because following her instruction had put his integrity in question and he seemed to place a greater value on that than his marriage.  I thought Diane becoming upset and walking out of the courtroom was because she believed the new shot against Kurt's honesty on the stand would be impossible for him to forgive and he would be holding Diane accountable for it happening.  Diane basically had told Alicia she would have to be dismissed  if they decided to use Kurt on the stand, and that didn't happen Diane was blaming Alicia for killing her marriage, hence the slap.

Diane came pretty close to accusing Kurt of having a recent affair with Blondie, but they seemed to have decided to start fresh with their marriage since as someone else pointed out, they didn't really have much of a marriage since they hadn't even been living together. 

As for his honesty being questioned, it was pretty obvious that Diane had nothing to do with him be crossed like that so if he held her accountable for other's actions then there's a bigger issue at hand.

I don't feel like he absolutely cheated but yeah, just the suggestion was enough to humiliate Diane. That was what the slap was for IMO, going behind her back and setting her up to be humiliated.   

 

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I've been thinking poor Christine Baranski. They did the same thing to her on The Big Bang Theory this past week.

She confessed she was upset her son didn't invite her to his wedding.  I don't think she was shown in the same poor light on TBBT.

[lidarose9]

48 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't feel like he absolutely cheated but yeah, just the suggestion was enough to humiliate Diane. That was what the slap was for IMO, going behind her back and setting her up to be humiliated.   

I felt when Diane slapped Alicia, the unsaid words were: "Your husband's infidelity may be all in a day's work for you, but I'm not you."  

[albaniantv]

Hey, who are you people who think Zach is doing something wrong by going to France? This is living the dream for people who have the opportunity and I don't care if he graduates from any school. He needs to experience a completely different life and here is his chance. Bye bye political dad, religious sister and cynical mom in search of next relationship, hello Paris. 

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

The Kings write that the Slap ending was always their end-game, but that they had intended Elsbeth Tascione to deliver it.  (An Elsbeth slap would have more clearly been on moral, not personal grounds.)

Here's the quote:

Quote

Was this the finale you always planned?

Robert [King] : At least with regard to the last five minutes. How we got there was a bit more of a negotiated route, with regard to what actors were available. We thought Carrie Preston would be the lawyer. We thought there would be moves we would have made if we had the actors available to us. So absent that, yes.

Michelle: We knew what the spine would be, but many of the details were created in the last three, four months.

The full article is: Variety interview with Robert & Michelle King

Edited May 11, 2016 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[Noreaster]

14 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

I personally don't give a shit what happens behind the scenes. I only care what's on screen. And what was on screen was 85% excellent. I think the writers, as interesting and philosophical as they were, crawled up their own asses in this season and it shows. There is no way I see Alicia as being Peter in that hallway, no way the worm has turned so she's now the abuser. She's a flawed human being but she is not corrupt. Contrary to popular opinion she never cheated. She also never took bribes or committed electoral fraud - all things Peter did.

My problem with that scene is that the Kings are doing exactly what they've been criticising society for doing: using a double standard for women's behaviour. So Alicia is now Peter, even though Peter is a double-dealing, cheating, criminal and Alicia is not. And I have no idea why Dianne would dissolve their partnership when she hasn't before. What Alicia did is no different to what Diane has done to her over the years. she was pragmatic enough to form this partnership in the first place when she clearly hated Alicia. She'll be pragmatic tomorrow as well.

Yeah, I read a couple of the interviews that the Kings gave about the finale and understand their intent about turning Alicia from "a victim to a victimizer" but I don't think they were successful with the final scene.  What Alicia did (having Lucca go after Kurt on the stand) was not out of line.  She's trying to keep the father of her children out of jail.  I could understand it more if they had Alicia do something more self-serving...like if she hurt someone in order to get Peter or herself elected or to get a big campaign donation or to get promoted.  But in this case?  No, it doesn't work.  And it's just insulting to the Diane character to end on this note.  The writers left things ambiguous enough that viewers can imagine the future of the characters however they want. For me, I expect Diane simply gets over it and she and Alicia will resume their professional relationship.   

1 hour ago, RimaTheBirdGirl said:

The Kings write that the Slap ending was always their end-game, but that they had intended Elsbeth Tascione to deliver it.  (An Elsbeth slap would have more clearly been on moral, not personal grounds.)

Here;s the quote:

The full article is: Variety interview with Robert & Michelle King

The Kings don't actually say who they intended to deliver the slap.  They just said they intended Elsbeth to be Peter's lawyer through the end.  

[Tetraneutron]

7 hours ago, lidarose9 said:

I felt when Diane slapped Alicia, the unsaid words were: "Your husband's infidelity may be all in a day's work for you, but I'm not you."  

So Diane is putting her personal feelings above what's best for her client? Not to mention Kurt literally testifies in court for a living. This would be far, far, from the first time a lawyer called his credibility into question. And even if Diane is devastated by Kurt's infidelity, how does slapping Alicia fix anything? Shouldn't she be blaming Kurt? Or herself for not seeing it? Or even Holly? This would have nothing to do with Alicia, since discrediting a witness that makes your case look bad is a basic part of the job. 

But the Kings decided they wanted to end with the slap, and jammed the story in there whether it fit or not. And then it just became a matter of who could deliver it? Peter? Of course not! We'd question how Alicia ever could have stayed in an abusive marriage. Jason? No. He's the love interest. Lucca? There's no history and her character is there just so Alicia could have a friend. Cary? David Lee? Eli? Leaving out the gender dynamics, what impact would that possible have? Elspeth? Canning? Grace? There's really no logical solution, but at least with Diane you avoid uncomfortable gender issues. Elspeth would have been just as dumb, but at least that could have been passed off as quirky. Of course, that would change the whole energy of the scene and rob it of any dramatic impact or ability to serve as a parallel to the pilot. But who cares! Symbolism!

Honestly, the whole idea of needing to end with a slap was just dumb. I started watching this show two years ago and I had completely forgotten the Pilot even had a slap. 

[Pop Tart]

Quote

So Diane is putting her personal feelings above what's best for her client? Not to mention Kurt literally testifies in court for a living. This would be far, far, from the first time a lawyer called his credibility into question. And even if Diane is devastated by Kurt's infidelity, how does slapping Alicia fix anything? Shouldn't she be blaming Kurt? Or herself for not seeing it? Or even Holly? This would have nothing to do with Alicia, since discrediting a witness that makes your case look bad is a basic part of the job. 

Exactly! I've been waiting for someone to say it. Kurt is so known for his honesty and integrity that no attorney has ever challenged him when he's testifying? Kurt would be quite used to being beat up by the other side in whichever case he's serving. Perhaps not to the extent of having an affair mentioned (though if the attorneys knew about it, it would come up), but certainly any cross-examination would target his findings, his credibility, his everything. 

This is why Diane's outrage didn't work for me. She didn't want to cross-examine her husband because it would endanger his integrity publicly? What? If he were so fragile, then he'd have given up the expert witness gig years ago. 

[vibeology]

I feel like the slap was probably intended to be delivered by Kalinda way back when they originally planned everything. If that has always been their plan, she would have been the woman closest to Alicia and losing her support should have been the most devastating. Of course, the drama ensured that that wouldn't be possible and they had to scramble to find another candidate.

Lets be honest, all of the men were out. First, because I doubt CBS would have signed off on Peter slapping Alicia but also because it makes her sympathetic right away. The size and strength difference makes her immediately a victim and takes away the joy the Kings want the audience to feel. So that only leaves the women. Lucca's only purpose has been to bolster Alicia and they would have needed to strip Alicia of that ally to make that work.

Diane, at least, has a history with Alicia that is tense and crunchy. There was something there to work with, though I think how the writers got there was crazy and nonsensical. After all, the results of the bullet tests didn't matter at all. All that mattered was what Kurt told Peter years ago while the trial was going on. If Kurt was neutral to somewhat positive that the bullets didn't match the gun, the truth doesn't matter. All that matters was what Peter believed to be true at the time. There was no reason to retest the bullets or put Kurt on the stand at all and because of that I really struggle to care about the story that comes after.

I would have preferred the slap to come from Grace if it had to happen at all. That relationship has been so important from the very beginning and Grace has been a constant presence ("Mom, pick up the phone! Mom, pick up the phone!") to have her abandon Alicia, disgusted by her mother's two-faced actions would have really driven home how far Alicia has fallen. I think the motivation would be there; Alicia carrying on with Jason while publically supporting Peter, not telling the kids about the pending divorce, driving Zack away first with her reaction to Nissa and then with the move to Paris, professionally gaining from Peter's downfall and leaving Grace standing on the sidelines while Alicia chased down the hall after Jason would have been enough buildup to get Grace there and it would have been a nice circle. Grace would have learned the stand by your man and sacrifice your opportunities from Alicia in the first place.

[AndySmith]

Dianne slapped Alicia because Alicia went behind Dianne's back to have Lucca cross examine Kurt that particular way. Alicia threw Dianne's husband under the bus for her own husband, someone Alicia more or less admitted she didn't have the guts to divorce/walk away from if he would have been sentenced to real jail time.

[vibeology]

I understand that, but I just don't understand why any lawyer would play it that way. It doesn't matter what is a known fact now; only what Peter knew then. So all they had to do to cross-examine Kurt was ask him again, what results he presented to Peter then. There was no need for all that drama and I can't see how it would have helped them in court. Kurt being discredited was bad for them; he needs to be trustworthy so his testimony about what he told Peter five years ago can be believed.

[lovinbob]

34 minutes ago, AndySmith said:

Dianne slapped Alicia because Alicia went behind Dianne's back to have Lucca cross examine Kurt that particular way. Alicia threw Dianne's husband under the bus for her own husband, someone Alicia more or less admitted she didn't have the guts to divorce/walk away from if he would have been sentenced to real jail time.

Which just reinforces, for me, why Diane (and Alicia) should not have represented Peter. If Kurt was tied to this case, they should not have been in a position for these personal attachments to affect the case, and their business going forward.

[AndySmith]

Oh definitely. But this show hasn't always worried about conflicts of interest when it comes to courtroom cases.

[shapeshifter]

I've read transcripts of the Kings saying they wanted to bookend the slap from the series premier--but why????? I don't see lawyers slapping people making sense in any universe, since lawyers know it opens them to charges of assault, and lawyers know how quickly friends can become adversaries.

[islandgal140]

The idea of Alicia even entertaining the thought that Peter was a romantic option made me want to slap her. 

So nice to see Will again. Just reminds me that he is the only character and actor JM ever had chemistry with. The show definitely lost its heart after he left. 

I wasn't a big fan of the character of Jason, and he and Alicia had about as much chem as water and a cardboard box but damn do I like looking at Jeffrey Dean Morgan. I even watched that gawd awful Halle Berry show for him. 

I'm gonna miss Diana's wardrobe and her fabulous and flawless head of hair. 

Lucca's outfits were nothing to spit at either. 

22 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

I never noticed until the screen shot on the home page here, but Damn! JM's got some man hands!

God gawd yes! The hands seemed bigger than her face. I was wondering whose hands were those?!? It reminded me of the Muppets Swedish chef - puppet head and giant human hands. 

19 hours ago, wendyg said:

The Diane slap felt like, "Someone has to slap Alicia. Who, do you think?", but...you know what would have made *no* sense at all but would have been really great? If it had been *Kalinda* who came down that hallway and slapped her. Would anyone have cared then about logic?

Why can't we have it all? I myself would have welcomed a scene similar to the one in the movie Airplane, with people lining up to slap Alicia. LOL!

[Noreaster]

1 hour ago, vibeology said:

I understand that, but I just don't understand why any lawyer would play it that way. It doesn't matter what is a known fact now; only what Peter knew then. So all they had to do to cross-examine Kurt was ask him again, what results he presented to Peter then. There was no need for all that drama and I can't see how it would have helped them in court. Kurt being discredited was bad for them; he needs to be trustworthy so his testimony about what he told Peter five years ago can be believed.

 I think the logic was that based on the jury's request to listen to the 911 call, the jury was actually taking the defendant's innocence/guilt into account.  So Peter's team thought if they could show the defendant was actually innocent, the jury would believe that Peter was also innocent.  I agree with you that it shouldn't make a difference and the jury shouldn't be looking at it that way but there it is.  

Another problem with this (and really almost all legal dramas on TV) is that the lawyers often ask questions that they don't know the answer to.  In real life, lawyers are not supposed to find out the truth on the stand or while the trial is in progress.  They should get all the information ahead of time and then figure out their legal strategy from there.  Not hope that the evidence will go their way.  Testing the bullets when they don't have any idea which way it will go is dumb.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Noreaster