S06.E02: Home

[Oscirus]

I've even seen some people figure it out based just on the "song of ice and fire" portion of the title.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I think the audiences would remember him and even if they don't that's what the recap before the episode is for. 

I can see Gendry being able to forge it especially if he has Mel's help. It would be kind of interesting for them to meet again. I wonder if she'd still feel the same way about burning alive a person with king's blood. 

Do we know Gendry's still alive? It's been a while, so I am probably way off base, but I thought it was at least strongly hinted that Mel killed him for his "king's" blood.

[Alayne Stone]

I've seen some unsullied people, reviewers, specifically, pick up on r+l=j but that was only after season 5, episode 4. Before that there is really no reason to suspect his true parentage. There are certainly a few things that have been seeded here and there that help support the theory in show, but only in retrospect, such as when Oberyn discussed Rhaegar leaving his sister for another woman.

 

I can't recall any hints of Mel suggesting she killed Gendry after he rowed off into oblivion. We don't know one way or the other though. That plot was dropped like a hot potato (sadly).

Edited May 3, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, clanstarling said:

Do we know Gendry's still alive? It's been a while, so I am probably way off base, but I thought it was at least strongly hinted that Mel killed him for his "king's" blood.

He's still alive, Davos helped him escape. I'm sure Arya will likely run into him in the future.

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

One thing I dislike about the show is that the writers love cheap surprises unlike GRRM who tends to set up his twists. I'd rather figure out the surprise than have it come from out of nowhere. Take R + L = J. There is no way anyone would have guessed Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar without the books. The show doesn't even hint at it. GRRM sets up the possibility from book one and throws in some more hints along the way. I much prefer his approach even though I was able to figure it out long before the reveal. 

If you read the Unsullied threads you'd see that they have been speculating R + L = J for a long time.  I don't know how they did it but it won't be a surprise.  (Shimpy?  Can you explain it?)

[MrWhyt]

57 minutes ago, Statman said:

The Hound was never Robert's personal guard.  His only interaction with Robert in both the books and the show is when he stops on Robert's command during his fight with the Mountain. 

The Cleganes are Lannister bannermen, not Baratheon, they work/ed for Tywin and Cersei.

[Alayne Stone]

I just checked out the Unsullied thread for Home (first time visiting their little Habitat! gosh they are so cute!) and they are definitely talking about r+l=j there. I'm curious as to when they all started picking up on it too. Shimpy definitely needs to pitch in on this when she gets a moment.

[glowbug]

I stand corrected. :)

I should say for me there wasn't enough foundation laid in the first two seasons anyway. I started reading the books at that point so my interpretation is colored by my book knowledge. If R + L = J had been revealed at the end of season two I don't think I would have looked back and thought "duh, I should have known" or "how clever of those writers laying all those hints and I completely missed them." 

I agree with Alayne Stone that the hints are there and you can see them if you know the conclusion already but at least in the early seasons they don't stand on their own for me. Obviously they did for some people though.

I'd like to hear from our resident former Unsullied, @stillshimpy, on this too. What in the show clued the Unsullied in on Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

ETA: Tagging is a cool new feature if it works. Shimpy, can you let me know if it worked?

Edited May 3, 2016 by glowbug

[Umbelina]

With the new forum if you say @stillshimpy (or anyone) they are supposed to get a notice.

So, I thought I'd try it out!

[GrailKing]

12 minutes ago, Alayne Stone said:

I just checked out the Unsullied thread for Home (first time visiting their little Habitat! gosh they are so cute!) and they are definitely talking about r+l=j there. I'm curious as to when they all started picking up on it too. Shimpy definitely needs to pitch in on this when she gets a moment.

If you read the threads you should know most of it by now, also other small hints in the show, ever notice the blue roses in the stained glass windows? or on Sansa's dresses, those are all hints for book readers, which I can't remember King Rob mention in show, but those are to the book readers, show only people should get it from the verbal stuff from the main characters.

Also if you don't mind being spoiled

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

 

Also look up

 

Blue Winter Roses and prophesies for the prince who was promised

Edited May 3, 2016 by GrailKing

[heisey]

Two questions:

18 hours ago, GrailKing said:

That's a bit up in the air, when he tries to communicate people hear things, but pass it off as wind or leaves,Ned, Theon thinks they hear their names called, Asha too I believe and if the

  Reveal hidden contents

Night King grabing his arm is true then he / they can interact in some way

some think Bran will be more powerful then BR.

I don't know if GRRM or B & W will go there, but there are hints in the book and show that he is attempting it

Someone remind me, please: who is BR?

Why isn't it winter, except in the North and at the Wall?  At the end of ADWD, it's snowing in King's Landing, and a white raven arrives from Oldtown, indicating the maesters there have determined winter has begun.  But on the show, it still appears to be sunny and warm in King's Landing, with no sign of winter.

[Alayne Stone]

8 minutes ago, heisey said:

Someone remind me, please: who is BR?

BR is Brynden Rivers AKA one of the Great Targaryen Bastards AKA the Three Eyed Crow (or Raven in the show) AKA Bran's current "mentor" in the weirwood cave. :)

GrailKing: Oh I have been all over the r+l=j theories for years now and I'm well aware of the significance of winter roses. I can't imagine unsullied would have any reason to understand their significance unfortunately, but those little easter eggs the creators leave in the show (blue roses in the stained glass windows, Sansa's dress, etc.) are always fun for us book readers to spot.

[heisey]

Thanks!  I (obviously) had forgotten the Three-eyed Raven's original identity.

[AuntieMame]

I believe Gendry is alive and his significance lies in being the only surviving son of House Baratheon. Whether he's been dropped from the show remains to be seen, but I think we'll see him in the books and I think he'll survive the winter and the war. Perhaps Gendry will launch House B into the new era, though at this point, I'm not certain if anyone kindly disposed to him knows his parentage and is alive. I always liked Gendry, both book and show. He was a strong supporting character and a noble boy. I thought Ned liked him too, even if Gendry was a little sullen during their meeting. 

I think Mel did assist Jon's resurrection, however haphazard the affair was. I'm not certain what power was behind it, but like the speculation that it was ancient magic from before the dawn of time. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by AuntieMame
Edited for spelling.

[Alapaki]

Here's my question (the product of a long commute):

Assuming we get the R+L=J reveal this week, presumably in a "vision" to Bran, then what?  Is there any consensus of theory on how that actually impacts the direction of the narrative?

I mean, everyone who would've had first-hand knowledge of the Tower of Joy is dead, and we don't have any evidence that I can recall that either Ned or Howland Reed spilled the beans to anyone.  For his part, Bran is stuck under a tree in the far North.

That has me wondering if there isn't something to the theory that Meera is actually Jon's twin sister.  Maybe Bran learns that, reveals that to Meera and sends her south to tell Jon, and uses the fact that he'd be protecting one of Lyanna's children to convince Hodor to leave him (Bran) and help Meera get back south alive.

[nksarmi]

I believe Howland Reed is alive both in the show and in the books. Perhaps Jon will meet up with him at some point?

Otherwise, well the show just told us that Bran will leave his cave so I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't reunited with Jon at the pivotal moment to reveal who he is so that Jon knows he can try riding a dragon.

Other possibility - Jon saw Ned while he was "dead" and Ned told him the truth?

Most likely possibility - once Mel's faith is restored - she sees the truth of who Jon is in the flames - which will be confirmed by Bran later.

Edited May 4, 2016 by nksarmi

[Avaleigh]

20 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

I believe Gendry is alive and his significance lies in being the only surviving son of House Baratheon. Whether he's been dropped from the show remains to be seen, but I think we'll see him in the books and I think he'll survive the winter and the war. Perhaps Gendry will launch House B into the new era, though at this point, I'm not certain if anyone kindly disposed to him knows his parentage and is alive. I always liked Gendry, both book and show. He was a strong supporting character and a noble boy. I thought Ned liked him too, even if Gendry was a little sullen during their meeting. 

I think Mel did assist Jon's resurrection, however haphazard the affair was. I'm not certain what power was behind it, but like the speculation that it was ancient magic from before the dawn of time. 

I can definitely see Gendry being legitimized on the show especially since Jon would be inclined to be sympathetic to a guy carrying around the weight of being a bastard. (Obviously I'm assuming that Jon is going to be King after all is said and done.) 

In the books I'd guess that Edric Storm might have a decent enough claim to carry on the Baratheon name if he were ever to return. 

It's too bad that Robert didn't do a discreet job of looking out for Mya Stone. How different her life might have been if she'd been made a lady of some highborn woman in the Vale or even somewhere like Dorne that's more tolerant. He was the king so it's not like he couldn't have attempted to look out for her. He could have done it without Cersei being any the wiser. He just didn't care IMO just as he barely cared about Edric. 

[Macbeth]

My understanding of Ghost sleeping by Jon is that it was a very long day.  He had been on edge ready for an attack for hours.  Things were resolved - time for him to to get some shut eye.  I just don't buy the warging. If Jon was really in  Ghost's body, the time to come back to life was when his loyal comrades, and Davos, were about to be slaughtered.  But don't let me spoil the party.

[GrailKing]

33 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

Here's my question (the product of a long commute):

Assuming we get the R+L=J reveal this week, presumably in a "vision" to Bran, then what?  Is there any consensus of theory on how that actually impacts the direction of the narrative?

I mean, everyone who would've had first-hand knowledge of the Tower of Joy is dead, and we don't have any evidence that I can recall that either Ned or Howland Reed spilled the beans to anyone.  For his part, Bran is stuck under a tree in the far North.

That has me wondering if there isn't something to the theory that Meera is actually Jon's twin sister.  Maybe Bran learns that, reveals that to Meera and sends her south to tell Jon, and uses the fact that he'd be protecting one of Lyanna's children to convince Hodor to leave him (Bran) and help Meera get back south alive.

I don't think there is a true consensus, ideas range from only we the reader / watcher will know to Jon being the true King to him rejecting the title and staying a Snow to keeping his Stark heritage.

Reed is alive, GRRM said we see him in the books, did not say how, Bran ain't staying in that cave ( I don't believe) and Leaf said it last week, and I don't think Meera is a secret sister.

57 minutes ago, Alayne Stone said:

BR is Brynden Rivers AKA one of the Great Targaryen Bastards AKA the Three Eyed Crow (or Raven in the show) AKA Bran's current "mentor" in the weirwood cave. :)

GrailKing: Oh I have been all over the r+l=j theories for years now and I'm well aware of the significance of winter roses. I can't imagine unsullied would have any reason to understand their significance unfortunately, but those little easter eggs the creators leave in the show (blue roses in the stained glass windows, Sansa's dress, etc.) are always fun for us book readers to spot.

Yeah, that’s why I said it's to us book people, viewers have to perk up them ears. :>)

[Alapaki]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Reed is alive, GRRM said we see him in the books, did not say how, Bran ain't staying in that cave ( I don't believe) and Leaf said it last week, and I don't think Meera is a secret sister.

Yeah, that’s why I said it's to us book people, viewers have to perk up them ears. :>)

Thx.  Not sure where I got it in my head that Howland was dead.  I recall now that one theory is that he is the High Sparrow.  That seems like a reach to me, though.

[AuntieMame]

Robert Baratheon was a careless man. It makes you wonder how Ned liked him so much unless it was the tie of being fostered together. Sometimes childhood friendships are based on propinquity

Okrather than propensity. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by AuntieMame
Edited to fix auto correct. Arrgh!

[GrailKing]

my favourite:

 

Blue Rose in a piece of ice up North; paraphrased.

3 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Robert Baratheon was a careless man. It makes you wonder how Ned liked him so much unless it was the tie of being fostered together. Sometimes childhood friendships are based on originality rather than propensity. 

Lyanna knew, but then she and Rahegar created Troy. OOOOOO0000000

Edited May 4, 2016 by GrailKing
spelling

[screamin]

Regarding how Cersei's massive Kingsguard knew to kill the barroom braggart - since the undead Mountain isn't the type to easily pick up gossip in taverns unremarked, I'd guess Qyburn (who besides being Cersei's Dr Frankenstein is also her spymaster) learned from his spy sources who was publically dissing Cersei, and on her instructions is sending out the Mountain to larn King's Landing some respect of her...

[Oscirus]

44 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Robert Baratheon was a careless man. It makes you wonder how Ned liked him so much unless it was the tie of being fostered together. Sometimes childhood friendships are based on originality rather than propensity. 

Robert had his faults but he was very charismatic. I'd be more inclined to wonder why he liked Ned so much.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, AuntieMame said:

Robert Baratheon was a careless man. It makes you wonder how Ned liked him so much unless it was the tie of being fostered together. Sometimes childhood friendships are based on originality rather than propensity. 

I attribute Ned's feelings of fondness for Robert down to "sandbox love/affection". He thought Robert was a better person than he was because he remembers the fun guy he grew up with and wanted to believe that Robert was still that good guy because of all of their happy past memories and everything. The more time he spent in Robert's company, the more he realized that there was hardly a trace of the man left that Ned remembered.

[Macbeth]

I did like Tyrion getting in touch with his inner Targaryen with the dragons.  That was truly a great moment in this show - IMO.  I mean they were chained for how long?  Very cruel way to treat your children.  Someone wanted to have the dragons save Dany.  Screw Dany, she put the dragons away like they were toys.  Besides she is being escorted to a retirement home, so she is in no trouble at the moment.  Tyrion, however, is surrounded by the enemies, he needs them. 

It just occurred to me, I am a little distracted, Tyrion killed Jaime's dad Tywin. like Jaime killed Tyrion's dad Aerys.  That is very nice symmetry. 

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

I did like Tyrion getting in touch with his inner Targaryen with the dragons.  That was truly a great moment in this show - IMO.  I mean they were chained for how long?  Very cruel way to treat your children.  Someone wanted to have the dragons save Dany.  Screw Dany, she put the dragons away like they were toys.  Besides she is being escorted to a retirement home, so she is in no trouble at the moment.  Tyrion, however, is surrounded by the enemies, he needs them. 

It just occurred to me, I am a little distracted, Tyrion killed Jaime's dad Tywin. like Jaime killed Tyrion's dad Aerys.  That is very nice symmetry. 

There are a lot of things that appeal to me about the Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen theory but one of the things that I enjoy most is the idea that Tyrion and Jaime each killed the douchebag father of their half brother. I also appreciate the irony of Tywin's nonbiological child being the most like him. It also serves as a truly awesome nearly lifetime punishment for Tywin and there's something incredibly appropriate about that to me considering everything that he's done. 

That's not counting the many, many links between Jon, Dany, and Tyrion that work best if they're all Targaryens. 

The main thing that stands in the way of the Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen theory is that people simply don't like it because they feel that it somehow damages the relationship with Tywin for whatever reason whereas I think it makes their relationship even more complex than it already is. Apart from people not liking the theory I don't think there's any evidence in the show or books that proves that Tyrion isn't a bastard Targaryen.  

[Oscirus]

Quote

 Apart from people not liking the theory I don't think there's any evidence in the show or books that proves that Tyrion isn't a bastard Targaryen.  

If they were going to set up Tyrion as a secret targaryen they would've set it up by now. The fact that there hasn't been one mention of Aerys's obsessions with Joanne is a strong indicator that at least in the show, Tyrion is first and foremost a Lannister.

Hell, even the scene this week went out of its way to show us that anybody who is a friend to Dany can  do what Tyrion did if hey had the guts.

 

I think the mother killing, third child, kill the ones they love stuff is more then enough of a connection for the three.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Robert had his faults but he was very charismatic. I'd be more inclined to wonder why he liked Ned so much.

Opposites attract.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

There are a lot of things that appeal to me about the Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen theory but one of the things that I enjoy most is the idea that Tyrion and Jaime each killed the douchebag father of their half brother. I also appreciate the irony of Tywin's nonbiological child being the most like him. It also serves as a truly awesome nearly lifetime punishment for Tywin and there's something incredibly appropriate about that to me considering everything that he's done. 

That's not counting the many, many links between Jon, Dany, and Tyrion that work best if they're all Targaryens. 

Jon, Dany and Tyrion all being Targs does seem to be the sort of symmetry GRRM would enjoy. Having all the similarities between them but having only two turn out to be Targs? Seems off to me. With that said...

47 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If they were going to set up Tyrion as a secret targaryen they would've set it up by now. The fact that there hasn't been one mention of Aerys's obsessions with Joanne is a strong indicator that at least in the show, Tyrion is first and foremost a Lannister.

I think that if A+J=T were going to be a thing in the show, then we would have some whiff by now of Aerys' interest in Joanna. I also think that if A+J=T is unconfirmed in the show, it can safely be discarded as a theory in the books.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Eyes High

[Brn2bwild]

15 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Right now I'm guessing that the hidden swords that are going to be found are Dark Sister and possibly Blackfyre. Having a third sword conveniently pop up seems like it would be a bit much which is another reason I lean towards Lightbringer needing to be remade and that it will take a sacrifice to make it happen. 

I always thought that an existing sword, like Long Claw, could transform into Lightbringer.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

If they were going to set up Tyrion as a secret targaryen they would've set it up by now. The fact that there hasn't been one mention of Aerys's obsessions with Joanne is a strong indicator that at least in the show, Tyrion is first and foremost a Lannister.

Hell, even the scene this week went out of its way to show us that anybody who is a friend to Dany can  do what Tyrion did if hey had the guts.

I think the mother killing, third child, kill the ones they love stuff is more then enough of a connection for the three.

I think they've set it up since the first season. The conversation between Jon and Tyrion in the first season was key to me. 

[ElizaD]

27 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Jon, Dany and Tyrion all being Targs does seem to be the sort of symmetry GRRM would enjoy. Having all the similarities between them but having only two turn out to be Targs? Seems off to me. With that said...

I think that if A+J=T were going to be a thing in the show, then we would have some whiff by now of Aerys' interest in Joanna. I also think that if A+J=T is unconfirmed in the show, it can safely be discarded as a theory in the books.

Full-Targ, half-Targ, non-Targ. That's balance, and it fits GRRM's realism that "only Targs can ride dragons" turns out to be propaganda, like so many other things that were said and done in the past to suggest real-world royalty were born intrinsically superior because of their magical abilities to communicate with otherworldly beings. R+L=J is about to be confirmed as canon and began with an openly acknowledged mystery (who is Jon's mother? when who is Jon's father turns out to be an even bigger twist) and has had seasons of setup, with season 5 making a point of reminding viewers of Rhaegar and Lyanna and the oddness of Ned having fathered a bastard, and this season we've already gotten to see Lyanna herself. A+J=T is a theory built on finding alternative explanations for things that aren't mysteries and already have perfectly logical character and plot-based explanations because people want Tyrion to be a Targ, so that desire becomes fact and the starting point for all reasoning. This theory has to use stuff like Tyrion being awed by a dragon in season 5 as evidence of dragonblood, when being awed by a dragon is a pretty universal feeling, and Tyrion explaining that dragons know their friends also becomes evidence of dragonblood because Missandei doesn't go free the dragons, never mind that she's a minor character and giving Quentyn's job to the biggest character in Meereen makes TV sense and begins setting up a likely development: while the process may differ, on TV and in the books I expect Tyrion will become a dragonrider because of his brains and dragonlore.

In short, R+L=J uses evidence to find the answer to a genuine mystery, while A+J=T rejects evidence and keeps on finding explanations for why the desired conclusion is true despite the lack of positive evidence (A+J references on the show equivalent to even one of the many R+L references over the seasons) and, now, the show's explicit presentation of reasons why a non-Targ can communicate with dragons: evidence that doesn't fit the theory is explained away instead of leading to a reconsideration of the theory's validity.

[Hecate7]

On 5/3/2016 at 7:15 PM, Alayne Stone said:

Oh ... oh ... OH. Can I just say one last thing that actually makes me kind of laugh out loud?

The fact that this show seems to think it is completely believable for two different Bastards to not only murder their liege lord but to actually set it up so that PEOPLE WILL PRESUMABLY FOLLOW THEM. First Ellaria in Dorne and then Ramsay up in the North. What Lord in his right mind is going to get behind an unstable psychopath and kinslayer? There's literally nothing to suggest they can be trusted or relied upon and that's not taking into account ambitious Lords who might presumably have a claim or an eye on ruling the dominion themselves. I just don't get it. At all.

Except that historically, it happened fairly regularly. Even more than successful bastards like William the Conquerer leading, unsuccessful coups led by bastards like the Black Prince or the bastard brother of Mary Queen of Scots, erupted at fairly regular intervals. There are lots of bastards in this story, probably for a reason.

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I did like Tyrion getting in touch with his inner Targaryen with the dragons.  That was truly a great moment in this show - IMO.  I mean they were chained for how long?  Very cruel way to treat your children.  Someone wanted to have the dragons save Dany.  Screw Dany, she put the dragons away like they were toys.  Besides she is being escorted to a retirement home, so she is in no trouble at the moment.  Tyrion, however, is surrounded by the enemies, he needs them. 

It just occurred to me, I am a little distracted, Tyrion killed Jaime's dad Tywin. like Jaime killed Tyrion's dad Aerys.  That is very nice symmetry. 

Unless they both are Aerys' sons. I still think that would be very ironic and fitting--if Tywin Lannister had NO children at all, and only thought he did.

 

Dany put the dragons away because that dry-eyed farmer with the fake sobs showed her the scorched bones of a small girl, and she feared that her dragons would be out there killing people. At that time, however, we were already shown Drogon hunting. He flew up, looked a young shepherd boy in the eye, and carefully flew around him and scorched the sheep. There were no human skulls or rib cages in Drogon's big pile of bones at his lair, so I don't think Drogon actually did that. I think Dany was manipulated into chaining up her dragons by the sons of the Harpy, using this man who either was paid to burn his daughter, or given a burnt slave child and instructed in how to act. Drogon so far is innocent, I believe, of human flesh at all, but Dany doesn't know that. She did what she thought she had to do for her people, but I'm almost sure Drogon was framed.

Meanwhile, his poor siblings were FED human flesh. They were so pure and innocent up until she brought them those men and encouraged them to eat them. It would be a terrible thing if they now have to have it, all because of Dany! Talk about bad parenting.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Hecate7

[watches2muchtv]

To me Jon Snow looks so different dead.

How did they get chains around the dragons in the first place did  I miss or foget something?

[FemmyV]

14 hours ago, glowbug said:

Take R + L = J. There is no way anyone would have guessed Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar without the books. The show doesn't even hint at it. GRRM sets up the possibility from book one and throws in some more hints along the way. I much prefer his approach even though I was able to figure it out long before the reveal. 

As a book reader, it may seem more obvious because we read how Ned found Lyanna, dying; iirc it was repeatedly hammered. But, if you go back and pay close attention to S01E01 & 02, the set-up is there. 

[Haleth]

6 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

The main thing that stands in the way of the Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen theory is that people simply don't like it because they feel that it somehow damages the relationship with Tywin for whatever reason whereas I think it makes their relationship even more complex than it already is. Apart from people not liking the theory I don't think there's any evidence in the show or books that proves that Tyrion isn't a bastard Targaryen.  

I don't like it because it's too convenient.  Not only was there one Super Secret Targaryen, there were two!  Just enough to ride dragons!  And it just so happens to be the other main character of the story.  Isn't that cute?  <barf>

No, I prefer to think anyone with enough understanding of dragons could avoid being turned to toast.  I hope it's the case that if Tyrion won himself a dragon it was because of his brain, not his DNA.  Quentyn could tell you that blood is not enough.

 

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Dany put the dragons away because that dry-eyed farmer with the fake sobs showed her the scorched bones of a small girl, and she feared that her dragons would be out there killing people. At that time, however, we were already shown Drogon hunting. He flew up, looked a young shepherd boy in the eye, and carefully flew around him and scorched the sheep. There were no human skulls or rib cages in Drogon's big pile of bones at his lair, so I don't think Drogon actually did that. I think Dany was manipulated into chaining up her dragons by the sons of the Harpy, using this man who either was paid to burn his daughter, or given a burnt slave child and instructed in how to act. Drogon so far is innocent, I believe, of human flesh at all, but Dany doesn't know that. She did what she thought she had to do for her people, but I'm almost sure Drogon was framed.

In the book it is pretty clear the bones are human.  I don't know why they'd change it for the show.

[qtpye]

Quote

wondering how much of it stems from them not so much liking the character of Ramsay persay, but really, really liking Iwan Rheon. He was, after all, their second choice for Jon Snow and from the commentaries I heard, they liked him so much they just kind of kept him on hold until they could find something for him (how they got "Ramsay" from "Jon Snow understudy" I will never know, but here we are).

This explains so much to me.  The actor, no matter how talented he might be, is totally wrong for this role.  Joffrey was a pretty boy, but the actor was magnificent at portraying the nastiness of his character and could really hold the screen with older more experienced actors.

Ramsey bores me and nothing is surprising.  I am not even effected by the horror of his acts, because it seem so trite.  It has gotten even worse now that he does not have the talented actor who is Theon to play off of, though I have no wish to see any more Theon torture scenes.

[stillshimpy]

Quote

If you read the Unsullied threads you'd see that they have been speculating R + L = J for a long time.  I don't know how they did it but it won't be a surprise.  (Shimpy?  Can you explain it?)

 

Sure, but it isn't quite what you guys think, that speculation has been around since the first season because people who had read the books were in the Completely Unspoiled thread over on TWoP and started suggesting it.  So it was a planted seed from long ago.  Some people picked it up and then caught the hints after that, starting with "You do not have my name, but you are my blood" or whatever that line was.  

It wasn't until I'd read the books and found out how blatant all the "Promise me, Ned...." was from the books that a few a of the hints dropped in that thread made sense.   In fact, the whole Unsullied thing came about because in response to speculation about Jon's parentage, regarding Ned's "blood" line I wondered if it was an establishing shot in the story:  something to let us know that Jon Snow didn't know who his mother was and that maybe she was essentially Godot.  Readers jumped into congratulate me on guessing correctly, from there the unspoiled spec rules started to be born.   

Not until reading the books this summer did I get that the people originally introducing that as a theory had been Bookwalkers though.  Or rather, I did know past a certain point, I just didn't realize how much stuff they were sprinkling in.  In fairness, none of those people were breaking rules, at least not precisely, because the rules had yet to be established and pretty much all of them were gone by the end of the first season, but that first season was a particularly bad one for bookwalkers.  

So it's from stuff from the un-unsullied and then the show started adding in more and more clues, but the blue roses thing was not one of them.  No one on the Wall knew about those until last season, when Littlefinger talked about them.  

Not one of the funner things to explain on that one, sorry.  "Oh yeah, by the third episode of the series and part of the reason the term "bookwalker" was coined, we had people who had read the books in there, suggesting that."  

On that one we'll never really know when they would have caught on.  But here's one to watch for: to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever suggested the "Tyrion might be Aerys son" in there, so if anyone is now speculating that Tyrion could be a Targ, that would be a new one. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Unless they both are Aerys' sons. I still think that would be very ironic and fitting--if Tywin Lannister had NO children at all, and only thought he did.

Interesting - Targ blood would explain crazy Joffrey.

I've always thought a triumvirate combining the bloodlines of the three major houses shown in the show - Stark, Lannister, and Targeryion would be the culmination. Three dragons, three ultimate survivors, all connected in some way.

Edited May 4, 2016 by clanstarling

[Eyes High]

Missandei didn't go free the dragons because it was still enormously risky even if Tyrion was right that the dragons had never harmed Missandei when Dany was around, and it would have been a supremely assholish move for Tyrion to risk someone else's life on his theory. I had no problem with Tyrion assuming the tremendous risk of his own theory proving incorrect himself.

I don't think we have any reason to think the shepherd was lying when he claimed that his little girl had been killed by Drogon. Just because the dragons are highly intelligent doesn't mean that they're not dangerous to humans. I mean, dogs are smart--a very smart dog is about as intelligent as a very small child--and every now and then a child minding his or her own business is mauled to death by a dog.

[proserpina65]

Quote

unsuccessful coups led by bastards like the Black Prince

The only Black Prince I'm familiar with was Edward of Woodstock, the Prince of Wales, who was most definitely not a bastard.  He was the eldest son of Edward III and was heir to the throne before his untimely death.  Having studied that period of English history quite closely, I've never come across any reference to his being involved in a coup of any sort.  He was his father's favorite child, and was trusted to lead his father's armies in France during the Hundred Years War.

Edited May 4, 2016 by proserpina65

[mac123x]

Just last season when Sansa was talking about the story in the WF crypts - Littlefinger insinuates that he had heard a different version of the story than Lyanna being kidnapped - leaving open the possibility that the girl ran away with the Prince voluntarily.

I loved that scene.  Littlefinger tells the story of the tournament at Harrenhal, Sansa says "Then he kidnapped her and raped her" and Littlefinger gives her the biggest side-eye.  Aiden Gillen conveyed "That's what you think happened?  No one ever told you the real story?  Hmm" with one look.

[Avaleigh]

9 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Full-Targ, half-Targ, non-Targ. That's balance,

I think the balance comes from giving each of our three core families a dragon. The world book made it clear that the Starks, Lannisters, and Targaryens were the only family trees worth looking at. If Tyrion does turn out to be a bastard Targaryen, then the set up is one full Targ, a Stark/Targ, and a Lannister/Targ. 

I don't think that we'd have so much emphasis on 'blood magic' if the blood doesn't turn out to be key. Blood magic isn't only emphasized in the show. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, mac123x said:

 

I loved that scene.  Littlefinger tells the story of the tournament at Harrenhal, Sansa says "Then he kidnapped her and raped her" and Littlefinger gives her the biggest side-eye.  Aiden Gillen conveyed "That's what you think happened?  No one ever told you the real story?  Hmm" with one look.

I'll grant you Aiden Gillen gives good side-eye, although he has nothing on Conleth Hill's dazzling array of "I can't even with this shit" expressions. (Sophie Turner said Conleth Hill could manage to make her crack up during the most serious scenes just by pulling faces.)

[blixie]

Quote

I always thought that an existing sword, like Long Claw, could transform into Lightbringer.

That's my working theory as well, Lightbringer is simply the sword that AA wields, in this case Long Claw. For some reason I just think the idea that it's not an actual sword but a metaphor so effing lame, if magic can transform death into life it can damn well transform Long Claw into Lightbringer. 

 

Quote

 In fairness, none of those people were breaking rules, at least not precisely, because the rules had yet to be established and pretty much all of them were gone by the end of the first season, but that first season was a particularly bad one for bookwalkers.  

Yeah I that is what I remember as bookwalker at the time. I think a purely unsullied person could and would reasonable speculate about Jon's parentage, since it's definitely obvious that Ned didn't cheat on Catelyn

his love for Ashara Dayne not withstanding

, and possibly conclude Lyanna is his mom, but I feel like there is no where near enough references to Rhaegar and his passion for and physical possession of Lyanna for people to land there without a nudge.

[Hecate7]

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

In the book it is pretty clear the bones are human.  I don't know why they'd change it for the show.

Yes, the bones the farmer is fake-sobbing over, are those of a little girl. But there are no human bones in Drogon's own stash, is what I was saying. Drogon was framed. They didn't change anything for the show.

 

And in the books, we have yet to be shown Drogon eating any people in the wild. He brings Danaerys horses, not people.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

55 minutes ago, blixie said:

Yeah I that is what I remember as bookwalker at the time. I think a purely unsullied person could and would reasonable speculate about Jon's parentage, since it's definitely obvious that Ned didn't cheat on Catelyn

  Reveal hidden contents

his love for Ashara Dayne not withstanding

, and possibly conclude Lyanna is his mom, but I feel like there is no where near enough references to Rhaegar and his passion for and physical possession of Lyanna for people to land there without a nudge.

that is absolutely not true. I wasn't nudged at all. I just came there in the first season. And I didn't nudge my completely unspoiled friend, who figured out in the FIRST episode, while Ned and Robert were looking at Lyanna's statue. She just popped out with it, "Jon's HER son by that guy who abducted her." So yes, it's possible for a completely unsullied person to get there that fast. My friend did. I took a little longer, but it only took me an episode.

To figure out it was Rhaegar only requires the knowledge that he abducted her and that that's where she was when she died, which is all implied in the crypt scene, but not explicitly spelled out until a few scenes later.

[Hecate7]

20 hours ago, Alayne Stone said:

I've seen some unsullied people, reviewers, specifically, pick up on r+l=j but that was only after season 5, episode 4. Before that there is really no reason to suspect his true parentage. There are certainly a few things that have been seeded here and there that help support the theory in show, but only in retrospect, such as when Oberyn discussed Rhaegar leaving his sister for another woman.

 

It's all laid out in the crypt scene in Episode One, which is when I got it. So did a friend I showed the scene to a year later. She still hasn't read any of the books--not interested enough. But she popped right out with the whole thing during the crypt scene. All of it. Because all of the evidence is right there in that scene.

It's actually extremely clear from the first episode, if you rewatch season one. The conversations between Ned and Robert are mostly about setting that up, actually. It's established in the first episode that Ned won't discuss Jon Snow's mother. I was unsullied when I figured it out, and so was the friend who picked it up in Episode One a year later. The conversation between Ned and Snow where Ned says, "you may not be a Stark, but you have my blood," makes it clear, too. If he were Snow's father he'd have said "you may not be a Stark, but you are my son." But he doesn't, because he's Snow's uncle not his father. I've rewatched with people who said at that point, "huh. And he's not coming back, of course. So Lyanna is his mother."

I've been saying it since episode one, and I didn't read any books until AFTER episode 5 aired.