Season 5

[hippielamb]

Emily Says Hello 

Emily was funny in freak-out mode, sad final scene though. I like the conflict between Chris and Rory, it feels very believable. When she told Marty that she used to be so eager for her dad to visit and now she's not, reflects a lot of kids attitudes who grew up with absentee parents. I also like Chris telling Rory that he has a prior relationship with Lorelai. Kids sometimes forget that their parents knew each other as people before becoming mom & dad. 

Pushkin 

Rory's nerdiness is in full display in this episode. The Luke/Lorelai fight is stupid. For someone so spoiled and entitled, it's surprising that Lorelai allows Luke to yell at her like that. Also, let him sell his boat if that's what he wants. It feels like manufactured conflict. Logan and friends skit combined with Richard's con of Logan were the only funny parts. Rory and Richard scenes were so cute together. I love their relationship. 

Women of Questionable Morals 

Lorelai was adorable in the opening scene. I am glad Chris and Rory got things sorted but would have wished to see it onscreen. Same with tequila night. Lorelai can have a drinking night with anyone she wishes but hiding it from your SO is a bad idea. She should have told Luke, and if he had a problem they could have discussed why it was an issue. Same thing with Richard and Pennilynn. I don't like the lack of trust that is in most of these relationships. 

Come Home

I really enjoyed the Mrs Kim and Lane scenes. Zach bonding with Mrs Kim seems like it should put Lane off but we know it doesn't. I don't like the jealous outburst of Richard. He's one of my favourite characters and I didn't find him likable in that scene. 

Emily gets a lot of criticism for going to Chris but I believe she thought she was doing what was best for Lorelai. She wants her daughter to succeed, notice how proudly she told Miss Celine about Lorelai opening her own inn. Plus, she knows the history between Lor & Chris. I don't think Emily considered that it would push Lorelai away since that has been something she has tried to avoid for most of the series. 

Wedding Bell Blues 

I was thinking of the discussion of Lorelai's separate worlds rewatching this. Her world with Chris that involves tequila and sneaking flasks into a funeral is about to collide with the Luke world where she's Stars Hollow Lorelai. They don't mesh well lol

It's interesting that Lorelai doesn't tell Chris she is dating Luke until she introduced them. It reminded me of Chris not telling her about Sherry until after she made an overture to him. Rory trying on a Lorelai persona is fun to watch, and I love her scenes with Logan but we know that's not really her. 

Luke was out of line with the business about Rory. I guess he was mad at both Lorelai and Christopher, justifiably so but commenting on Chris' presence in Rory's life bugs me. I do get why he's mad. Lorelai only told him about tequila night because Chris was at the wedding. And she didn't tell her ex that she was in a relationship with someone else. It feels like real conflict instead of the boat/dark day rubbish we saw a couple episodes ago. 

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, hippielamb said:

Come Home

Emily gets a lot of criticism for going to Chris but I believe she thought she was doing what was best for Lorelai. She wants her daughter to succeed, notice how proudly she told Miss Celine about Lorelai opening her own inn. Plus, she knows the history between Lor & Chris. I don't think Emily considered that it would push Lorelai away since that has been something she has tried to avoid for most of the series. 

 

Wow, that's really great insight.  Do you think Emily assumed Lorelai was "settling" for Luke because Lorelai believed Chris was finally off-limits for good?  (And I only mean "settling" in the sense that she would have been "settling" for anyone who wasn't Chris....)  I've never really thought of Emily as having good intentions in that scene (LOL) but you may be right.

[shron17]

4 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Wow, that's really great insight.  Do you think Emily assumed Lorelai was "settling" for Luke because Lorelai believed Chris was finally off-limits for good?  (And I only mean "settling" in the sense that she would have been "settling" for anyone who wasn't Chris....)  I've never really thought of Emily as having good intentions in that scene (LOL) but you may be right.

I don't know, I think Emily thought she had good intentions.  But she's always decided what was best for Lorelai based her version of Lorelai rather than the person Lorelai really is.

[junienmomo]

8 hours ago, shron17 said:

I don't know, I think Emily thought she had good intentions.  But she's always decided what was best for Lorelai based her version of Lorelai rather than the person Lorelai really is.

Emily and  Richard discussed the relationship at length. They were in agreement about how inappropriate Luke well.  Emily took it upon herself to decide that Christopher should have another chance with her daughter.  That's not good intentions when the daughter is an adult and has been making her own decisions for 20 years. Lorelai was completely justified in  deciding to never speak to Emily again. Honestly I wish she could have stuck with that for a season or two.  It would have given Emily a chance to realize that her behavior was unforgivably inappropriate, and she might  have been able to improve the relationship if she had perhaps at least once said she was sorry. 

[Kohola3]

9 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

Honestly I wish she could have stuck with that for a season or two.  

Lord, yes.  How long did that last, a few days?  And meeting Logan was such a contrivance.  There were a hundred other ways she could have met him.  Of course, without the dinner and petty theft we wouldn't have immediately known what a jerk he was.

[readster]

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

Emily and  Richard discussed the relationship at length. They were in agreement about how inappropriate Luke well.  Emily took it upon herself to decide that Christopher should have another chance with her daughter.  That's not good intentions when the daughter is an adult and has been making her own decisions for 20 years. Lorelai was completely justified in  deciding to never speak to Emily again. Honestly I wish she could have stuck with that for a season or two.  It would have given Emily a chance to realize that her behavior was unforgivably inappropriate, and she might  have been able to improve the relationship if she had perhaps at least once said she was sorry. 

Yes, and that's what made me hate Emily and where I felt the writers destroyed her character by doing that. I can't no matter how I look at it and even members of my family who are fans of GG themselves. See Emily doing anything "best for Lorelai" is crap. She still fell on: "What will others think?" crap her, Richard, Straub, Franchine and others have done for years. At that point in time, Lorelai had turn away from the "rich" life style. Opened her own inn, raised her daughter through high school gotten her to college and was in a committed relationship. Did she fall into old habits with Christopher? Yes, she did. Did Chris fall back on his stupid vision of what was a "bit happy family"? Yes, he did. However, to go and basically want to sabatoge your daughter's relationship because she might end up marrying "a diner owner". Yeah, lost me right there. 

[shron17]

2 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Lord, yes.  How long did that last, a few days?  And meeting Logan was such a contrivance.  There were a hundred other ways she could have met him.  Of course, without the dinner and petty theft we wouldn't have immediately known what a jerk he was.

It was like 2 weeks.  Though while short, I think Lorelai still got her point across.  Emily did stay out of their relationship after that and even tried to buy them a house.  I understood why Lorelai wanted so badly to be at that dinner, given her relationship with her parents and with Rory.  In part because she felt she needed to protect Rory from their meddling, which she tried to do.

[hippielamb]

19 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Wow, that's really great insight.  Do you think Emily assumed Lorelai was "settling" for Luke because Lorelai believed Chris was finally off-limits for good?  (And I only mean "settling" in the sense that she would have been "settling" for anyone who wasn't Chris....)  I've never really thought of Emily as having good intentions in that scene (LOL) but you may be right.

Yeah that's how I see it, especially considering her dialogue with Chris at his apartment. I am no Emily fan but I really think she thought once Lorelai and Chris were back together that Lorelai would be happy. When that didn't happen, Emily said something like, Lorelai has made her choice (when she tells Luke to go back to Lorelai). I think she believed she was doing the right thing, remember how she wanted to interfere when Chris & Lor broke up back in season 2/3.  

[Kohola3]

Quote

It was like 2 weeks. 

Wow, two whole weeks. Way to back up the "you and me, we're through" statement. Can you be more wishy-washy Lorelai?

[junienmomo]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

Wow, two whole weeks. Way to back up the "you and me, we're through" statement. Can you be more wishy-washy Lorelai?

True, and like you said earlier, the contrived reason was beyond a rational person's thinking capacity. That was one of those moments when I was yelling at the TV, telling Lorelai how to achieve the goal of meeting Logan without being treated like crap by Emily. 

[JaggedLilPill]

I think it would have been a nice twist for Emily to have accepted Luke and Lorelai right off the bat. It's true that she did stay out of it after she told Luke she would, but it's disappointing that it came out of a situation that hurt Luke and Lorelai individually and as a couple, especially since it could have been 100% avoided.

Emily was a snob; this much is true, but after her "You're idiots, the both of you," I kind of thought she'd get behind them. But then came the other remarks, such as, "Now we can discuss what on earth you could possibly be thinking," and the diner wedding with ketchup comment, and yet, I didn't see the Chris sabotage coming.

I do think Emily saw how hurt Lorelai was after Sherry got pregnant and she reminded herself of that to justify inviting Chris to the wedding with the ulterior motive of getting Lorelai back, however, it was also self-serving because then she wouldn't have to deal with her friends/acquaintances seeing Luke.

And what really sucks is it comes from her seeing Lorelai with that wedding dress as she's looking in the mirror with it. That Emily couldn't see beyond her own prejudice to accept that her daughter was actually happy, enough to consider marriage, is sad. Yes, she comes around, but it'll always leave a bad taste in my mouth.

[shron17]

4 hours ago, junienmomo said:

True, and like you said earlier, the contrived reason was beyond a rational person's thinking capacity. That was one of those moments when I was yelling at the TV, telling Lorelai how to achieve the goal of meeting Logan without being treated like crap by Emily. 

But the goal wasn't to meet Logan--Lorelai had already met him.  The goal was to be present for the first family dinner that included Rory's boyfriend.  And the "you and me we're done moment" wasn't necessarily about cutting Emily out of her life forever but proving that she could and would.

[junienmomo]

29 minutes ago, shron17 said:

But the goal wasn't to meet Logan--Lorelai had already met him.  The goal was to be present for the first family dinner that included Rory's boyfriend.  And the "you and me we're done moment" wasn't necessarily about cutting Emily out of her life forever but proving that she could and would.

Actually, Lorelai's own words were "I am there to talk to Logan. To get to know him. I mean, other than the fact that he’s blond, rich and straight, I’m out." She had no intentions of treating it like a normal FND. The scene with Lorelai repeating this type of statement is pretty long.

She tried to go without even telling Emily, but Rory refused to help, so Lorelai called her mother and got the first taste of the evening. She went anyway, throwing over her commitment to have Emily butt out of their lives. I hate how cruel Emily was to Lorelai in that episode. 

Someone, I suspect it's more Lorelai than Emily, cut Luke out of a relationship with the Gilmores at the end of season five. First Emily cruelly insulted Luke during the speed dial incident, then she did it again at Rory's birthday party 'no chocolate box for you' although I think that's as much Rory not ascertaining that if Lorelai came, so would Luke, and she failed to tell Emily. 

So Lorelai's gone back to FND, (see earlier wishy-washy comments) like it makes sense for a daughter with a serious relationship to never bring the partner to a family gathering. Then they inexplicably do "You've Been Gilmored," afterwards continuing to ignore his existence while at the same time Lorelai claims he's been accepted. My guess is it's Lorelai compartmentalizing this time so she doesn't have to face the Luke/Emily situation. 

[Guest]

She could have kept it going but decided it was worth giving it up to make sure she was involved in every aspect of Rory's life and relationship with her grandparents. She couldn't ever stand being left out of anything with Rory, it seemed, so she made the choice. 

I thought Emily's behavior was somewhat justified in that episode. Lorelai had made it clear she wasn't coming to FNDs ever again. Suddenly she wants to come to one (and only one) and Emily is obligated to go along with her? I don't think that's how most relationships work.

I also don't think Logan's prank was big deal- immature, but just something he and his dumb friends did. It was much less malicious than much of the behavior we see on the show. I think had he not been shocked by Emily's reaction he would have confessed and the elder Gilmores would have been amused (as they were with everything he did and said at that point). Rory, knowing her grandma, could have jumped in with an explanation instead of letting it go so far. Just a simple "oh Logan, I told you they'd notice!" could have put the whole thing to rest.

[junienmomo]

4 hours ago, deaja said:

She could have kept it going but decided it was worth giving it up to make sure she was involved in every aspect of Rory's life and relationship with her grandparents. She couldn't ever stand being left out of anything with Rory, it seemed, so she made the choice. (lots of good stuff in the previous message).

Well, said, deaja. Lorelai did have that need to know everything about Rory, even when she threw her commitment to Luke under the bus for a dinner.  I can imagine she was surprised when Emily was so cruel. Lorelai didn't usually think so far ahead.

Emily's  ultimatum was justified, although I don't think the cruelty was appropriate. However, my opinion of Emilys cruelty never seem to matter to her. LOL

Brilliant idea on how the prank could have been handled.  Logan would have picked up Rory's comment and joked his way back into Emily's affections and the  maid's job would have been safe.  I am frequently surprised by how inept Rory often is socially. 

[TwirlyGirly]

5 hours ago, deaja said:

<snip>

I also don't think Logan's prank was big deal- immature, but just something he and his dumb friends did. It was much less malicious than much of the behavior we see on the show. I think had he not been shocked by Emily's reaction he would have confessed and the elder Gilmores would have been amused (as they were with everything he did and said at that point). Rory, knowing her grandma, could have jumped in with an explanation instead of letting it go so far. Just a simple "oh Logan, I told you they'd notice!" could have put the whole thing to rest.

I don't know if it's my lack of creativity, or the fact I can't wrap my mind around the idea there is a way to make stealing sound like a harmless prank (and personally I wouldn't accept any explanation of it presented in that way), but in terms of script, how might you have written that confession?

"Ha ha! I took it. It's just a little pranks my buddies and I play when we're visiting the homes of our friend's parents...ha ha" wouldn't work on me, and would absolutely result in said guest being shown the door post haste in my house...

[txhorns79]

Quote

I don't know if it's my lack of creativity, or the fact I can't wrap my mind around the idea there is a way to make stealing sound like a harmless prank (and personally I wouldn't accept any explanation of it presented in that way), but in terms of script, how might you have written that confession?

I think it was meant as a harmless prank in that Logan believed he was taking some moderately priced knickknack based on the idea that the rich person had so much stuff, they'd never miss the small item being taken.   I do agree though that the reality of the prank made it clear that it wasn't harmless.    

Quote

I thought Emily's behavior was somewhat justified in that episode. Lorelai had made it clear she wasn't coming to FNDs ever again. Suddenly she wants to come to one (and only one) and Emily is obligated to go along with her? I don't think that's how most relationships work.

 

I agree here.  Emily knew why Lorelai was suddenly interested in coming to the FND, and I can see why she wouldn't be that big on obliging that request. 

[junienmomo]

5 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

 I agree here.  Emily knew why Lorelai was suddenly interested in coming to the FND, and I can see why she wouldn't be that big on obliging that request. 

LOL with the intense level of soap opera drama in that season, I'm half surprised Emily didn't demand she break up with Luke or invite Christopher to the dinner.

[Guest]

That is what I meant, @txhorns79, thanks. Stealing is obviously wrong. I also think the incident did show a far bigger problem I had with Logan much of the time. He seemed to do it in a "rich people have so much stuff they won't notice a swap" way, almost making fun of them for their privilege. Yet being able to do it because of his extreme privilege.

Much like how he often acted like he was burdened by his family plans for him but not taking the steps to remove himself.

Until much later, of course.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I don't know if it's my lack of creativity, or the fact I can't wrap my mind around the idea there is a way to make stealing sound like a harmless prank (and personally I wouldn't accept any explanation of it presented in that way), but in terms of script, how might you have written that confession?

"Ha ha! I took it. It's just a little pranks my buddies and I play when we're visiting the homes of our friend's parents...ha ha" wouldn't work on me, and would absolutely result in said guest being shown the door post haste in my house...

He wouldn't have had to confess. A simple "oh, Emily, I was just admiring it and put it down wrong" or putting it on a different table to be discovered, etc.

The elder Gilmores were so enamored with the idea of Rory and Logan at that point that I think they would have believed just about any excuse he gave them. 

[JayInChicago]

Someone should have gone to Logan's loft and stolen his xbox or his suit of armor.

[Kohola3]

Pinpointing the exact moment at which I began to loathe Logan, Colin, and Finn.

[Colin purposefully bumps into Marty as he passes]
MARTY: Oh, sorry.
COLIN: No, seriously, you couldn't see me there?
FINN: Not everyone's staring at you, Colin.
LOGAN: Hey, I know you. No, wait-wait, don't tell me. I'm seeing a uniform of some sort.
FINN: [sarcasm] Maytag repairman.
MARTY: I've bartended for you -- for your parties.
LOGAN: That's right, you have. You're a talented man. [to Rory] He makes a kick-ass margarita.
MARTY: Thanks
LOGAN: It's good to see you again. What's your name?
MARTY: Marty. Uh, this is Rory.
LOGAN: Hi. So, assuming your services are still for hire this year, your financial situation hasn't changed at all?
MARTY: Nope.
COLIN: Excellent shirt. [to Rory] I can see what you see in him.
LOGAN: Don't be an ass, Colin.
COLIN: Me? Never. I'm a friend to all people, large and very, very small.
MARTY: I kind of hate those guys.
RORY: Really? I can't see why.

The saddest part is that Rory ultimately embraces this condescending, snotty attitude shortly thereafter.  Gah, I hate all of them.

[clack]

Yeah, that's the scene that leads me to believe that Rory never really cared about Marty, that he was just a fill-in friend until someone better came along. She shows him zero loyalty.

If Logan & co had shouldered Lane aside (someone Rory really does care about), and had then mocked Lane for being a mere waitress ,would Rory have betrayed Lane by befriending Logan and his crowd?

[Kohola3]

Well she dumped Dean ("But he's MY Dean"!) in a heartbeat so I'm not sure she'd defend Lane, either.  Money speaks in the Gilmore universe.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Well she dumped Dean ("But he's MY Dean"!) in a heartbeat

Didn't Dean dump her the second time around?  At least in terms of Season 5, that relationship needed to end.  I will say I thought they did a good job of showing it wasn't working for either Dean or Rory. 

[Kohola3]

Yes, technically Dean ended it.  But Rory made absolutely no attempt to go after him, just jumped in the limo with the Trust Fund Kids to motor off into the night.  

Not saying their breakup wasn't in the cards but she sure got over him in a hot minute.  Must have been all of gold jewelry and witty conversation.  Not a bit shallow, our Rory.

[photo fox]

The sewing box thing was immature and stupid, but I have a hard time treating it like it makes Logan some horrible person.  It's often mentioned as if Logan tried to get the maid fired, when:

1. He didn't think they'd even notice.
2. He had no way of knowing Emily was insane about her staff.
3. He told his girlfriend, who should have known numbers 1 and 2, and she acted like it was no big deal.
4. There was about 20 seconds (I've timed it) between Emily beginning to question the maid and Lorelai speaking up.  Logan spends the whole time looking nervous, not entertained.

Stupid and wrong, but not malicious, IMO.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Not saying their breakup wasn't in the cards but she sure got over him in a hot minute.  Must have been all of gold jewelry and witty conversation.  Not a bit shallow, our Rory.

I think she did get upset, but I do think they showed several episodes of awkward dates and conversation between the two, so I can't really fault Rory for not dwelling on a relationship that wasn't working.

Quote

Stupid and wrong, but not malicious, IMO.

It's hard for me to tell with Logan.  I would agree that he didn't steal with the intent of letting the maid get blamed, but he also must realize that his "game" might unintentionally backfire at some point.  I also felt like he was not going to speak up until Lorelai forced the issue.  I didn't get the impression he would have acted on his own.   

[Kohola3]

Quote

 I didn't get the impression he would have acted on his own.   

Heck no.  He was used to his father's lawyers getting him out of scrapes.  I doubt he ever apologized or took responsibility for his actions.  He certainly didn't think twice about stealing the yacht.  Of course, wasn't that the second time he'd done it?  

[shron17]

2 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Not saying their breakup wasn't in the cards but she sure got over him in a hot minute.  Must have been all of gold jewelry and witty conversation.  Not a bit shallow, our Rory.

I think their breakup came out of Dean's realization that he didn't belong there because Rory was more comfortable now at her grandparents and with people from Yale.  They had both been struggling to put the time and effort into their relationship even though it didn't fit into either of their present-day lives.  I always thought Rory didn't protest or go after him because she knew he was right.

11 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

He was used to his father's lawyers getting him out of scrapes.  I doubt he ever apologized or took responsibility for his actions. 

One of the biggest differences between Logan and original recipe Rory was that she generally held herself responsible for her actions whether it was breaking Paris's project, being a bad friend to Lane, missing her mom's birthday, taking food from the cafeteria without paying for it, etc. etc.

[clack]

Season 5 begins Rory's Breaking Bad arc.

Betraying Marty through thoughtlessness : interrupting her evening with him to drag him along to an expensive restaurant she knew he couldn't afford, in the company of the same assholes who had bullied him.

Gradually turning her back on her modest, small-town roots in favor of a new circle of rich, inconsiderate friends.  Eventually bottoming out ( theft, community service, dropping out) in Season 6. 

It's disappointing that Rory never really confronts, on a deep level, her amoral choices. But that is a discussion for Season 7.

[readster]

18 hours ago, clack said:

Season 5 begins Rory's Breaking Bad arc.

Betraying Marty through thoughtlessness : interrupting her evening with him to drag him along to an expensive restaurant she knew he couldn't afford, in the company of the same assholes who had bullied him.

Gradually turning her back on her modest, small-town roots in favor of a new circle of rich, inconsiderate friends.  Eventually bottoming out ( theft, community service, dropping out) in Season 6. 

It's disappointing that Rory never really confronts, on a deep level, her amoral choices. But that is a discussion for Season 7.

How true. Her bottoming out was a bit of a too much feeling to it. She basically gets told "You don't have it!" and figures: "Well, I'll just do what my boyfriend has done and that will make things be "good" again. When the logic of her thought process and so forth was too over the top. I never saw a Rory who looked at herself and went: "What was I thinking?" or even to a bigger point: "You're an asshole Mitchum and your dad and wife too." Instead it was a: "I suck and people are right, bohoo!" 

[clack]

Rory never figured out that the reason Logan hung out with assholes was because Logan was an asshole too.  

Now, Logan wasn't only an asshole -- he had more dimension than Colin or Finn. But really, why was Logan hanging out with those jerks? Think of all the interesting, smart, talented Yale students that he might have instead befriended -- artists, musicians, future scientists, etc. 

[Smad]

On 9.8.2016 at 8:57 PM, clack said:

Yeah, that's the scene that leads me to believe that Rory never really cared about Marty, that he was just a fill-in friend until someone better came along. She shows him zero loyalty.

And how is that different from how Rory treated everyone else in her life? Or every person she has ever been close to for that matter. :p

People are just a means to an end for her IMO and once she got what she needed out of them she tosses them aside, sometimes temporarily (like Lorelai, her grandparents or Lane) and sometimes permanently (pretty much everyone else).

[txhorns79]

Quote

People are just a means to an end for her IMO and once she got what she needed out of them she tosses them aside, sometimes temporarily (like Lorelai, her grandparents or Lane) and sometimes permanently (pretty much everyone else).

I don't know if I would go that far.  With Lorelai, I think Rory was being immature and didn't really know what to do when she and her mother fundamentally disagreed over something.  At least that is how I saw her reaction to Lorelai's being upset over the affair with Dean, and later the same season, when Lorelai was upset over Rory's plan to take a break from school.  I saw the immaturity again when Rory moved out of Emily and Richard's without a word to them (likely to avoid a confrontation).  

With Lane, I saw it more as she and Rory drifting apart, not Rory using her then getting rid of her.    

[Eyes High]

15 hours ago, clack said:

Rory never figured out that the reason Logan hung out with assholes was because Logan was an asshole too.  

Now, Logan wasn't only an asshole -- he had more dimension than Colin or Finn. But really, why was Logan hanging out with those jerks? Think of all the interesting, smart, talented Yale students that he might have instead befriended -- artists, musicians, future scientists, etc. 

If you can judge a person by their friends, the fact that Logan is friends with Colin and Finn should tell you all you need to know about him.

On 2016-08-09 at 8:12 PM, txhorns79 said:

I also felt like he was not going to speak up until Lorelai forced the issue.  I didn't get the impression he would have acted on his own.   

Agreed.

[cuddlingcrowley]

Quote

If you can judge a person by their friends, the fact that Logan is friends with Colin and Finn should tell you all you need to know about him.

Rory was also friends with Colin and Finn so that's pretty much all you need to know about this subject. To her credit, by the end of the show she was completely over them and their whole lifestyle.

(To be fair, I never thought they were as bad as some people think. Finn, especially.  The actor was incredibly charismatic and cracked me up more than once. Colin was just the guy you tolerated because was he and Finn were a package deal (as gay lovers). 

But, to be really, really fair, if Finn and Collin were real people, we/Rory only got to see the tiniest bit of what asses they really must be.)

[junienmomo]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know if I would go that far.  With Lorelai, I think Rory was being immature and didn't really know what to do when she and her mother fundamentally disagreed over something.  At least that is how I saw her reaction to Lorelai's being upset over the affair with Dean, and later the same season, when Lorelai was upset over Rory's plan to take a break from school.  

On a side note, Lorelai handled the Dean situation as best she could in Pippi. She didn't like it, didn't want it, yet tried to hold her family together by not harping a la Emily on the giant mistake Rory was making. It was a very realistic parenting moment, enhanced by the ersatz dad Luke having a bullheaded dad moment when he demonstrated his hatred of the situation. 

It was a tough mom time, but she did really well, better than dropping out of Yale.

Edited August 11, 2016 by junienmomo

[clack]

It's in S5 that AS-P loses her grasp on how Rory is meant to be perceived by the viewers.

Ok, Logan is meant to be the Good Bad Boy -- the arrogant jerk with a (secretly) good heart, tamed in the end by the love of our heroine. Mr Darcy to Rory's Elizabeth Bennett.

But for that trope to work, there must be a clash of values. Rory must stand her ground, give as good as she gets.

But in GG, Rory immediately capitulates, and adopts Logan's values as her own. That's a whole other trope : the heroine seduced by a lifestyle's superficial charm, a charm which she eventually sees through, and in seeing through thereby comes of age, sadder but wiser.

Mash these two tropes together, and you get moral incoherence. Are we supposed to root for Rory and Logan as a couple, like we do for Darcy and Elizabeth? If so, shouldn't Logan outgrow his jerk friends? Or if he doesn't, shouldn't Rory come to her senses and reject Logan and his lifestyle? (When Rory does finally reject Logan's proposal, it's for an unrelated reason -- she never does reject what Logan represents).

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

I think it was meant as a harmless prank in that Logan believed he was taking some moderately priced knickknack based on the idea that the rich person had so much stuff, they'd never miss the small item being taken.

Regardless of the trinkets value, I really don't see how stealing something from someone is an amusing prank. Do those jerks imagine the homeowner panicking over the missing item, or wondering where the replacement came from? Does he/them enjoy the homeowner, in this case Emily, having a fit over the missing item? So, they take pleasure in someone else's pain.

[chessiegal]

13 minutes ago, Aloeonatable said:

Regardless of the trinkets value, I really don't see how stealing something from someone is an amusing prank. Do those jerks imagine the homeowner panicking over the missing item, or wondering where the replacement came from? Does he/them enjoy the homeowner, in this case Emily, having a fit over the missing item? So, they take pleasure in someone else's pain.

Logan's whole point was that rich people had so much stuff they never notice - he explicitly said that. He had no idea Emily would notice, so his point wasn't to cause pain. It appeared this is the 1st time anyone noticed.

[TimetravellingBW]

13 hours ago, clack said:

It's in S5 that AS-P loses her grasp on how Rory is meant to be perceived by the viewers.

Ok, Logan is meant to be the Good Bad Boy -- the arrogant jerk with a (secretly) good heart, tamed in the end by the love of our heroine. Mr Darcy to Rory's Elizabeth Bennett.

But for that trope to work, there must be a clash of values. Rory must stand her ground, give as good as she gets.

But in GG, Rory immediately capitulates, and adopts Logan's values as her own. That's a whole other trope : the heroine seduced by a lifestyle's superficial charm, a charm which she eventually sees through, and in seeing through thereby comes of age, sadder but wiser.

Mash these two tropes together, and you get moral incoherence. Are we supposed to root for Rory and Logan as a couple, like we do for Darcy and Elizabeth? If so, shouldn't Logan outgrow his jerk friends? Or if he doesn't, shouldn't Rory come to her senses and reject Logan and his lifestyle? (When Rory does finally reject Logan's proposal, it's for an unrelated reason -- she never does reject what Logan represents).

 

On 10/08/2016 at 2:43 PM, clack said:

Season 5 begins Rory's Breaking Bad arc.

Betraying Marty through thoughtlessness : interrupting her evening with him to drag him along to an expensive restaurant she knew he couldn't afford, in the company of the same assholes who had bullied him.

Gradually turning her back on her modest, small-town roots in favor of a new circle of rich, inconsiderate friends.  Eventually bottoming out ( theft, community service, dropping out) in Season 6. 

It's disappointing that Rory never really confronts, on a deep level, her amoral choices. But that is a discussion for Season 7.

Both these points nail exactly what went wrong with Rory in Season 5 and 6: That AS-P tied her relationship with Logan/exploring the wealthy world with her downward spiral as a person.

Aside from a few positive aspects of experimenting - Rory being more proactive with the LDB investigation, her taking risks a la You Jump I Jump Jack, her making the first move at the vow renewal - the show demonstrated that Logan/rich society had a terrible impact on Rory. E.g. Bailing on Marty, trying a no strings attached relationship which damaged her self-esteem, stealing a yacht, dropping out of Yale, fighting with Lorelai, joining the DAR. All these things were directly connected to her Logan relationship arc. Jess even openly connects her dating Logan with her mistakes and messed up life. (And Jess's return and speech was presented as Rory returning to her past roots and old true self. The whole arc was absolutely set up as a Heroine Seduced by Superficial Life trope not Heroine Tames Rich Bad Boy).

So after all that, it was major whiplash to have the writers turn around and justify Logan as a believable partner in the second half of S6. Rory was cutting ties with the mistakes she'd made experimenting with the wealthy world. Logically, the jerkass, rich boyfriend should have been the first to go. So keeping him around - especially as the show was practically hanging neon-lights on a Rory/Jess reunion as *the one who called her back* - was just bizarre.  Granted Logan was far more likeable by the end of S6 and in S7, but it was still so much to overcome because Rory wasn't likeable when she was with him. I'm sure that contributes to Jess being more popular than Logan: Both guys were jerks initially, but Rory was still likeable when she was with Jess (and he later pulled her back from her most loathed behavior) while her character was weaker with Logan.

(Also yes, Rory's downward spiral and loss of popularity did begin with Rory sleeping with Dean at the end of S4. But that was so disconnected from her S5 and S6 arc. I mean it was kind of suggested her failure with Dean prompted her to turn her back on Stars Hollow/her old life and immerse herself in Logan's world instead - but AS-P connected that poorly so it just felt like two different Rorys and two different sets of mistakes).

16 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

Rory was also friends with Colin and Finn so that's pretty much all you need to know about this subject. To her credit, by the end of the show she was completely over them and their whole lifestyle.

(To be fair, I never thought they were as bad as some people think. Finn, especially.  The actor was incredibly charismatic and cracked me up more than once. Colin was just the guy you tolerated because was he and Finn were a package deal (as gay lovers). 

Ugh, again if Rory couldn't handle hanging out with the guy Emily set up her with at the end of S4 then why did she get on so well with Logan/Finn/Colin. Though funnily enough I agree Finn was actually pretty entertaining. From memory most of the crueler stuff came from Colin (he was the harshest in the first conversation with Marty) and Finn's actor had excellent comic timing. If they'd made him less douchy from the start he'd have been a great character.

Edited August 12, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

Logan's whole point was that rich people had so much stuff they never notice - he explicitly said that. He had no idea Emily would notice, so his point wasn't to cause pain. It appeared this is the 1st time anyone noticed.

How would he know they never noticed? I'm sure in the other times he did take something, he wasn't around when the theft was discovered. I just don't see how this was amusing to him and his friends. That is why I questioned their musing on it. 

Quote

That AS-P tied her relationship with Logan/exploring the wealthy world with her downward spiral as a person.

This is why I could never fully warm up to the Logan/Rory relationship. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

I'm sure in the other times he did take something, he wasn't around when the theft was discovered.

Nor, I am sure, did he ever spare a second thought to the working class, uniform-wearing servants that got fired as a result. After all, the simple folk only exist to allow his condescension.

[patchwork]

At least half of the families the LDB stole from would eventually notice and the blame would land on some poor staff member who was likely fired but because the fallout happens out of sight it's considered a joke.

I judge Rory more harshly in this situation than I do him. She should know better and he's stealing from her grandparents.

As college boyfriends go I think Logan is a good one, or good learning experience at least. Rory loses herself in him because she desperately wants him to like her and she's not in Richard/Emily's world she's in Logan's amongst people her own age and for the most part having fun. As the typical Finding Yourself storyline I don't mind it but then it sticks around and refuses to leave.    

[hippielamb]

On 8/11/2016 at 2:48 PM, cuddlingcrowley said:

Rory was also friends with Colin and Finn so that's pretty much all you need to know about this subject. To her credit, by the end of the show she was completely over them and their whole lifestyle.

(To be fair, I never thought they were as bad as some people think. Finn, especially.  The actor was incredibly charismatic and cracked me up more than once. Colin was just the guy you tolerated because was he and Finn were a package deal (as gay lovers). 

But, to be really, really fair, if Finn and Collin were real people, we/Rory only got to see the tiniest bit of what asses they really must be.)

Colin is a jerk from his first scene and it stays consistent. Finn is harmless fun. He has that charming, playful, usually drunk demeanor that I find very attractive. 

On 8/11/2016 at 6:14 PM, clack said:

It's in S5 that AS-P loses her grasp on how Rory is meant to be perceived by the viewers.

Ok, Logan is meant to be the Good Bad Boy -- the arrogant jerk with a (secretly) good heart, tamed in the end by the love of our heroine. Mr Darcy to Rory's Elizabeth Bennett.

But for that trope to work, there must be a clash of values. Rory must stand her ground, give as good as she gets.

But in GG, Rory immediately capitulates, and adopts Logan's values as her own. That's a whole other trope : the heroine seduced by a lifestyle's superficial charm, a charm which she eventually sees through, and in seeing through thereby comes of age, sadder but wiser.

Mash these two tropes together, and you get moral incoherence. Are we supposed to root for Rory and Logan as a couple, like we do for Darcy and Elizabeth? If so, shouldn't Logan outgrow his jerk friends? Or if he doesn't, shouldn't Rory come to her senses and reject Logan and his lifestyle? (When Rory does finally reject Logan's proposal, it's for an unrelated reason -- she never does reject what Logan represents).

I think the showrunners wanted to show Rory in the Gilmore world that Lorelai rejected. It begins to be a thing in season 5 and puts them in conflict. I'm not sure it's supposed to be about Rory & Logan, he is part of that world and her attraction to him seduces her to the upper class life. 

I do cheer for them, mainly because a.) Alexis convinces me that Rory is really in to him, and b.) I find Logan very charming and likable. He's the only Rory boyfriend that I would like in real life. I love Dean but his relationship with Rory never felt right. I don't agree with the Mr Darcy and Logan comparison. Darcy was a rude jerk who had a good heart while I find Logan very likable and not at all rude or boorish. 

[hippielamb]

Say Something

Rory and Paris are book smart but both are clueless when they have boy problems. I liked the little snippets of their friendship in this episode. I agree with Gypsy, Pink power, baby.

I don't like seeing Lorelai chase after Luke but it illustrates how they deal with conflict. She wants to talk it out, and he shuts down. Rory and Logan were pretty cute. He does this interesting thing of giving her attention and then pulling away, so she wants more. I don't agree with the theory that he is a young Christopher but he does treat Rory (at least right now) in a similar way.

Jews and Chinese Food

Rory is channeling her mother in the movie marathon night. In this and the previous episode, I love the Lorelai and Rory scenes together. It feels like we haven't seen much of them being there for each other in awhile.

Marty. Ugh. Just don't go to dinner if you feel uncomfortable. Colin is still a jerk. I thought it was classy of Logan to offer to pay Marty's share. He did invite him so Marty shouldn't feel the need to pay. If he wasn't so proud, it wouldn't be an issue.

Luke. Double Ugh. If he wants to talk to Lorelai so badly, he knows where she is. Instead he overeacts and yells at her. Again. I didn't like that entire plot, except for Lulu. She was sweet and take charge.

So Good Talk

It's a little odd that Lorelai is surprised Logan and Rory are sleeping together since she walked in on them at the vow renewal. I am glad Rory confided in her and also that she explained why she felt uncomfortable talking when she was with Dean.

Bratty Rory with Emily is a joy to watch. She's a brat with just about everyone (except Richard) these last couple of seasons. I kinda like it because it fits the age she supposed to be.

I loved Richard and Lorelai's conversation and his visit to the inn. Emily being jealous that he's the favourite is a funny scene but I always thought he was more liked by both girls.

[elang4]

I actually cheered for Rory when she stood up to Emily in that Friday Night Dinner. Emily obviously thought everything would be fine with Rory so I kind of liked when she was shocked by her behaviour, especially when she saw Rory being so nice to Richard. :) 

[elang4]

I actually cheered for Rory when she stood up to Emily in that Friday Night Dinner. Emily obviously thought everything would be fine with Rory so I kind of liked when she was shocked by her behaviour, especially when she saw Rory being so nice to Richard. :) 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I actually cheered for Rory when she stood up to Emily in that Friday Night Dinner. Emily obviously thought everything would be fine with Rory so I kind of liked when she was shocked by her behavior, especially when she saw Rory being so nice to Richard. :) 

I gave Emily credit for compartmentalization.  At the end of Wedding Bell Blues, she frowned heavily when Lorelai told her they were done, so I would think that might clue her in that something was wrong and she might follow up, even if she's in Europe.  However, it appears she didn't, because its a few episodes later and she doesn't seem to understand why Rory's reacting so badly to her.   

I honestly wanted to slap the entire town for the pink and blue ribbon thing.  It's like they treated the whole break up as a giant game meant for their entertainment.

Edited August 14, 2016 by txhorns79