Season 5

[lulu1960]

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 I thought they stopped being friends after she started dating Logan, which falls into the nice guy attitude of if you date someone else, they don't want to be friends. I remember his actions after the Duck Soup night but nothing after that except in season 7. I haven't watched most of these season 5 episodes in a long time, maybe I forgot some important scene.

After Duck Soup night (Jews and Chinese Food) and Rory tell him she likes Logan we didn't see Marty again till Season Seven. (French Twist)

Edited July 26, 2016 by lulu1960

[photo fox]

Add me to those who never got the Marty love.  He's just such an Eeyore to me.  Like instead of taking a shot with Rory (or anyone), he just moped around and then got pissy because she never noticed him "that way".  UGH.  Total dishrag.

[readster]

7 minutes ago, photo fox said:

Add me to those who never got the Marty love.  He's just such an Eeyore to me.  Like instead of taking a shot with Rory (or anyone), he just moped around and then got pissy because she never noticed him "that way".  UGH.  Total dishrag.

I know and then when we did see him it was 2 years later and he acted like he never knew her. That was just bad and the reason was because he was busy on Broadway and had a month off when Season 7 showed up and the writers said: "Hey!" "Remember, Marty!" "He's free for a month of filming. No idea what to do, but we can shoe horn him like AS-P did with actors." 

[txhorns79]

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Like instead of taking a shot with Rory (or anyone), he just moped around and then got pissy because she never noticed him "that way".

Yeah, he acted as though Rory should just be in love with him because he was a nice person.  It was silly, and obnoxious. 

[twoods]

I never saw Marty as that obnoxious, probably because all my hatred was towards Logan and his annoying friends. He seemed to genuinely ask her if she had a boyfriend, then Rory goes to be with Dean. Then she's so gross over Logan, a guy who hangs out with douchebags who were outwardly rude to Marty. I'm sure the writers had no use for Marty which is why he suddenly disappeared but I did like his friendship with Rory before he became weird around her.

Edited July 27, 2016 by twoods

[Guest]

Luke is so awful in "We've Got Us a Pippi Virgin." His overprotectiveness is borderline creepy.

[moonb]

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After Duck Soup night (Jews and Chinese Food) and Rory tell him she likes Logan we didn't see Marty again till Season Seven. (French Twist)

It occurs to me that Rory didn't make one genuine platonic friend on her own in college. They're all from childhood (Lorelai, Lane), high school (Paris), or friends like Marty, whose friendship didn't mean what she thought. Once he disappears Rory inherits Logan's friends instead, or hangs out with Doyle because of Paris. And Lucy and Olivia's only function in season 7 is to show that Marty can't get over Rory (like Dean...and Jess....and Logan). None of that is Rory's fault, and she's an introvert who prefers a few meaningful friendships. But no wonder she seems especially alone in seasons 4 and 6.

Edited July 29, 2016 by moonb

[hippielamb]

Tippecanoe and Taylor too

Rory and Dean are pretty pathetic that they can't figure out how to have sex in a car. I had to laugh at Lorelai mumbling under her breath about Rory coming home to see Dean. Sookie and Jackson are adorable together in this episode. This is one of the ones I usually skip.

Pippi

I really enjoy this episode and seeing Dean hang out with the girls again. He knows their habits and fits into their rhythm so well. I also like the dawning truth they can't recapture the innocent romance they once had. I don't like Luke's actions at all, his complaints about Dean are true of him as well. Emily was funny in every one of her scenes. I love watching her flip out.

21 hours ago, deaja said:

Luke is so awful in "We've Got Us a Pippi Virgin." His overprotectiveness is borderline creepy.

It bugs me a lot. We see it again at the vow renewal. Maybe it's to illustrate that he doesn't see her realistically. I don't like that he thinks he has a right to comment on her personal life just because he's dating her mom. 

[elang4]

15 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

Tippecanoe and Taylor too

Rory and Dean are pretty pathetic that they can't figure out how to have sex in a car. I had to laugh at Lorelai mumbling under her breath about Rory coming home to see Dean. Sookie and Jackson are adorable together in this episode. This is one of the ones I usually skip.

Pippi

I really enjoy this episode and seeing Dean hang out with the girls again. He knows their habits and fits into their rhythm so well. I also like the dawning truth they can't recapture the innocent romance they once had. I don't like Luke's actions at all, his complaints about Dean are true of him as well. Emily was funny in every one of her scenes. I love watching her flip out.

It bugs me a lot. We see it again at the vow renewal. Maybe it's to illustrate that he doesn't see her realistically. I don't like that he thinks he has a right to comment on her personal life just because he's dating her mom. 

To be fair though, after the vow renewal, Rory was only bothered about Luke's reaction saying how mad he was which shows she does care about his opinion. She didn't even worry about her dad's reaction. I agree in Pippi it was a bit overprotective but I think he realised that in the end. Tbh I didn't like Dean either so I didn't really mind! 

[clack]

I have to defend season 5 Marty. 

His situation and Luke's are parallel : each are secretly in love with a friend. Is Luke also a creepy Nice Guy?

Also, I can't blame Marty for his friendship with Rory drifting to an end. We don't see the end, but either Rory, hanging out with her new set of friends, no longer has time for Marty, or Marty rightly decides that the friendship wasn't good for his emotional health and so detaches himself. Either way, S5 Marty is blameless. ( Granted, S7 Marty is another matter).

[lulu1960]

1 hour ago, clack said:

I have to defend season 5 Marty. 

His situation and Luke's are parallel : each are secretly in love with a friend. Is Luke also a creepy Nice Guy?

Also, I can't blame Marty for his friendship with Rory drifting to an end. We don't see the end, but either Rory, hanging out with her new set of friends, no longer has time for Marty, or Marty rightly decides that the friendship wasn't good for his emotional health and so detaches himself. Either way, S5 Marty is blameless. ( Granted, S7 Marty is another matter).

I 100% agree.

[cuddlingcrowley]

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 Is Luke also a creepy Nice Guy?

Sometimes, sure, he across like that to me personally. Entitled to Lorelai. The most egregious moment being him facing off Max at Lorelai's home. Good God, that was terrible. So embarrassing. But I feel the writers rightfully pulled back from that kind of behavior as the show went on. The narrative also called Luke out on his passiveness numerous times which culminated on him realizing HE needed to make a move.

 

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I have to defend season 5 Marty. 

 

You raised very good points and your take is how I saw Marty in S5... until the Duck Soup episode. I feel for Rory during that episode because she's trying so hard to keep her (only) friend even if it might mean blowing off the guy she really likes and has just started dating. By then the writing on the wall should have been more than clear to Marty and I don't get why he put himself through a dinner with Rogan + friends besides wanting to play the martyr. He could have easily stood his ground, made up some excuse and got himself the hell out of that situation. It would have been painfully obvious any way but at least he'd have kept his dignity.

[blueray]

To be fair to Marty he was in a hard situation, sure he could have said that he had something that he had to do, but that is not always as simple as it sounds.  I honestly think Rory should have said sorry we already have plans, which she did try but didn't stick to it. It was not like she wouldn't have seen Logan again after that. I remember feeling really bad for Marty and that Rory was a lousy friend.  As for season 7 Marty, I don't really remember that much as I've only seen the season once. But I do remember them randomly throwing Marty in (as well as those random art students).

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, blueray said:

To be fair to Marty he was in a hard situation, sure he could have said that he had something that he had to do, but that is not always as simple as it sounds.  I honestly think Rory should have said sorry we already have plans, which she did try but didn't stick to it. It was not like she wouldn't have seen Logan again after that. I remember feeling really bad for Marty and that Rory was a lousy friend.  

I agree.  I don't really see how Marty could even have said he had something else to do, when he and Rory are the ones who already had plans and Logan was the one "butting in" (unintentionally, but still).  And Rory was making it painfully obvious that she really wanted to go with Logan and his crew, which was really pretty crappy of her.  

The only choices Marty had at that point were to make an excuse why he had to leave immediately, like he was feeling sick or something (which IMO would have made him more pathetic), tell Rory to just go on without him (which would have made him look pouty and probably been the final nail in the coffin for their friendship), or to just go with them.  It ended up being the death of their friendship anyway, but it was the least pathetic choice for him to make.

 

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LOGAN: Come on, Marty. If you’re going to be hanging with Ace like this, it’s time I get to know you without a waiter’s uniform on. Let’s go. Car’s waiting outside. [He leaves.]

Logan all but said that Rory was part of their group now, and if Marty wanted to still hang out with her he was going to have to get used to being with all of them.  And Rory said nothing to refute that.  At least Marty was man enough to acknowledge that he didn't really want to be part of that, and moved on.  (Pretending that S7 never happened, of course.)

[clack]

Marty was, what? 19? He was being dumped by the girl he loved, who was also his only friend. So I can excuse him for nor reacting with a gallant shrug and a rueful smile.

That said, Rory has every right to choose -- and unchoose-- her friends. Rory like Marty well enough at the time, but once they left each other's orbit she barely spared him a thought.

[cuddlingcrowley]

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 I don't really see how Marty could even have said he had something else to do, when he and Rory are the ones who already had plans and Logan was the one "butting in" (unintentionally, but still).  And Rory was making it painfully obvious that she really wanted to go with Logan and his crew, which was really pretty crappy of her. 

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Marty was, what? 19? He was being dumped by the girl he loved, who was also his only friend. So I can excuse him for nor reacting with a gallant shrug and a rueful smile.

 

 

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Logan all but said that Rory was part of their group now, and if Marty wanted to still hang out with her he was going to have to get used to being with all of them.  And Rory said nothing to refute that.  At least Marty was man enough to acknowledge that he didn't really want to be part of that, and moved on.

 

He was a nineteen, not nine, you guys. To answer everyone who's bewildered by how Marty could have saved himself and Rory more grief by not accepting the dinner invitation, quite simply, he could have said: "I don't feel like going but go ahead. We'll talk later." and went out of the door before some awkward reply could be mustered.

The end. 

Rory already knew he didn't like Logan and his friends so it would hardly have been out of the blue. That said, unless he was exceptionally good at masking his emotions, which Marty was not, it would have looked painfully obvious why he didn't want to go but so what? If he was going for subtle then he wouldn't have looked completely miserable throughout dinner, staring at Logan and Rory. But YMMV.

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

To answer everyone who's bewildered by how Marty could have saved himself and Rory more grief by not accepting the dinner invitation, quite simply, he could have said: "I don't feel like going but go ahead. We'll talk later." and went out of the door before some awkward reply could be mustered.

The end. 

I guess I just don't understand why the onus should have been on Marty to get himself gracefully out of the situation in the first place.  Rory was the one who planned the Marx Bros. marathon night and begged Marty to hang out with her, she wouldn't take no for an answer (even though he was obviously trying to distance himself from her) but then she was sure okay with dropping their plans as soon as Logan showed up.  Marty should have told her to go stick it. 

 

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Rory already knew he didn't like Logan and his friends...

Yes, she did.  Which is why it was quite rude of her to put Marty in the position where he had to go out with Logan & Crew just to spend time with her after she had begged him to spend time with her.

[cuddlingcrowley]

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I guess I just don't understand why the onus should have been on Marty to get himself gracefully out of the situation in the first place. 

Rory was the one who planned the Marx Bros. marathon night and begged Marty to hang out with her, she wouldn't take no for an answer (even though he was obviously trying to distance himself from her) but then she was sure okay with dropping their plans as soon as Logan showed up.  Marty should have told her to go stick it. Marty should have told her to go stick it.  (...) 

Which is why it was quite rude of her to put Marty in the position where he had to go out with Logan & Crew just to spend time with her after she had begged him to spend time with her.

 

 

 

I agree with almost everything. Rory did put Marty in an incredibly awkward position. Ideally, she should have told Logan firmly she already made plans with Marty and bid him adieu. But she didn't! So it was up to Marty have some self respect and get himself the hell out of there because the writing on the wall couldn't be clearer.  I don't know about gracefully. But, imo, if the girl you have a crush on is going on a sorta date with the guy she's dating, well, it's matter of pride not to tag along even if one gets a horribly misguided invitation to. If you don't, well, I don't know what the hell you're trying to prove. Wait, actually I do.

Edited July 31, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[txhorns79]

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Rory did put Marty in an incredibly awkward position. Ideally, she should have told Logan firmly she already made plans with Marty and bid him adieu. But she didn't! So it was up to Marty have some self respect and get himself the hell out of there because the writing on the wall couldn't be clearer.  I don't know about gracefully. But, imo, if the girl you have a crush on is going on a sorta date with the guy she's dating, well, it's matter of pride not to tag along even if one gets a horribly misguided invitation to. If you don't, well, I don't know what the hell you're trying to prove. Wait, actually I do.

I really blame Rory, but I kind of agree that the best case scenario for Marty here was to politely beg off.  Obviously, Rory should have been the grown up here and kept the plans she made with Marty, but she didn't, so Marty just was kind of screwed.  

[TwirlyGirly]

2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

I guess I just don't understand why the onus should have been on Marty to get himself gracefully out of the situation in the first place.  Rory was the one who planned the Marx Bros. marathon night and begged Marty to hang out with her, she wouldn't take no for an answer (even though he was obviously trying to distance himself from her) but then she was sure okay with dropping their plans as soon as Logan showed up.  Marty should have told her to go stick it. 

 

Yes, she did.  Which is why it was quite rude of her to put Marty in the position where he had to go out with Logan & Crew just to spend time with her after she had begged him to spend time with her.

And then Rory  essentially did the same thing to Jess (again with Logan) in Season 6 "Let Me Hear Your Balalaikas Ringing Out." So, apparently Rory didn't learn from her mistake or she's so self-involved it never registered with her that what she did was wrong.

[clack]

Marty got pantsed during his senior prom. I would guess he was friendless during high school, and he's probably never had a girlfriend.

But now he's at Yale, among other smart kids. High school social hierarchies are seemingly overthrown. The girl of his dreams actually likes hanging out with him! Maybe he won't be a loser all his life, after all.

And then that girl, Rory, gets drawn into a social circle that reminds Marty of his high school bullies. Social hierarchies reassert themselves, with Marty once again on the outside.

He's inexperienced in these situations. What to do? He decides to avoid Rory, but she makes an effort to keep the friendship going. He's lonely, and hanging out with her, watching movies, makes him happy. Maybe things will work out if he just hangs in there, and so he in turn makes an effort and goes out to dinner with Rory, Logan, and company.

But once more he's made to feel the loser. Rory doesn't want to think that she's the type of person will dump a friend for not having enough status -- so she pretends that she and Marty are still friends, but Marty knows better.

[33kaitykaity]

To weigh in crazy late on the Marty/Rory friendship question, I always thought that Ep10 Chilton student Anna did them in despite Rory's efforts to the contrary in Marx Bros Ep15.  

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In this episode, Rory complains to Marty that she does not understand why Logan does not like her and came after her during the class. Marty responds that she is being naive, that Logan likes her. This is very similar to an episode in season one when after Dean and Tristan fight at the dance, Rory says that Tristan can not stand her. Dean, like Marty informs a clueless Rory that it is because Tristan has a thing for her.

Marty's disgust for Rory was palpable when he put her in the cab and walked away.

[CalamityBoPeep]

11 hours ago, 33kaitykaity said:

To weigh in crazy late on the Marty/Rory friendship question, I always thought that Ep10 Chilton student Anna did them in despite Rory's efforts to the contrary in Marx Bros Ep15.  

Marty's disgust for Rory was palpable when he put her in the cab and walked away.

His disgust for her is what really made me like the guy. He showed a lot of self-respect in that moment. That was the high-water mark on my Marty affection though.

[shron17]

13 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

And then Rory  essentially did the same thing to Jess (again with Logan) in Season 6 "Let Me Hear Your Balalaikas Ringing Out." So, apparently Rory didn't learn from her mistake or she's so self-involved it never registered with her that what she did was wrong.

It's interesting that both times she did it for Logan, not all that surprising since after a certain point (?) Rory was always scurrying around trying to get Logan to like her.  I didn't realize how much I was starting to dislike her until she went to Logan in BIAG with her I'm a girlfriend girl speech.  But just when she was finally likable again, she let Logan talk her into being her boyfriend, apparently not realizing that just because he insisted he could be her boyfriend didn't make him a good choice for her.

[33kaitykaity]

42 minutes ago, shron17 said:

It's interesting that both times she did it for Logan, not all that surprising since after a certain point (?) Rory was always scurrying around trying to get Logan to like her.  I didn't realize how much I was starting to dislike her until she went to Logan in BIAG with her I'm a girlfriend girl speech.  But just when she was finally likable again, she let Logan talk her into being her boyfriend, apparently not realizing that just because he insisted he could be her boyfriend didn't make him a good choice for her.

Just one more instance of As-P jumping the shark in relation to the GGs' boyfriends.  The other one that really bugs me is Lorelai conveniently being broken up with Jason for suing her family -- of all of the stupid, convenient, totally out-of-character things As-P could come up with -- so Lorelai could be available when Luke finally gets his shit together and can finally "see her face."

Logan was honest when he told Rory that he was not boyfriend material, yet when faced with telling a righteous story, instead As-P Deus-Ex-Machinas Rory, getting Rory what Rory wants no matter the consequences.  

Edited July 31, 2016 by 33kaitykaity

[katha]

21 minutes ago, shron17 said:

It's interesting that both times she did it for Logan, not all that surprising since after a certain point (?) Rory was always scurrying around trying to get Logan to like her.  I didn't realize how much I was starting to dislike her until she went to Logan in BIAG with her I'm a girlfriend girl speech.  But just when she was finally likable again, she let Logan talk her into being her boyfriend, apparently not realizing that just because he insisted he could be her boyfriend didn't make him a good choice for her.

I think this harkens back to Rory being so insecure about how to deal at Yale, away from Lorelai and SH and the support systems there. So she was already flailing on her own, with the demands of college, with her problems socializing and asserting herself in this new environment. And she was lonely. So she latched on to Logan as her next security blanket and as someone who would give her purpose and structure and affection and emotional support, no matter that he wasn't perhaps the best person for that.

I'm with the posters who quite like Logan as a character for himself, but sorta side-eye the Rory/Logan relationship. And I don't think that Rory's catering to him and questionable decision making when they were together was "his fault", he had his issues and made plenty of mistakes but I thought he cared for her and respected her, tried his best to make the relationship work. Rory was just such a doormat at times, and a guy less kind and more selfish/malicious than Logan might have taken advantage of her behaviour. But that is more a thing of Rory and the problematic ways she tends to fall into as a girlfriend. With Jess and Dean she could also be passive and unable to assert herself. Come to think of it, in any kind of relationship, Rory tended to be passive and reluctant to assert herself. Logan just happened to be around when she was in a personal crisis and at her worst, but IMO he wasn't the reason for that. And in some ways he managed to be helpful and supportive and he also told her some truths about herself she didn't want to hear, so even though the mid-twenties version of the character wasn't really right for her as a "forever guy", I appreciated what he brought to the table when he was around.

[shron17]

9 hours ago, katha said:

I think this harkens back to Rory being so insecure about how to deal at Yale, away from Lorelai and SH and the support systems there. So she was already flailing on her own, with the demands of college, with her problems socializing and asserting herself in this new environment. And she was lonely. So she latched on to Logan as her next security blanket and as someone who would give her purpose and structure and affection and emotional support, no matter that he wasn't perhaps the best person for that.

That is a very good point.  Logan does get blamed for many things Rory totally did to herself, and he was very supportive of her in his own way.  Even though I don't care for him so much, Rory did grow a lot in strength and confidence while dating him, and I imagine their relationship may have been one she needed to experience on her way to figuring out who she was.  I liked Marty but they were too similar to offer as much opportunity for growth.  Even professionally, it was no accident that who Logan's family was set the stage for a fulfilling end of series career dilemma/decision for Rory.  At least latching onto Logan wasn't as bad as trying to re-create Dean and Rory, the high school years. 

Edited August 1, 2016 by shron17

[hippielamb]

On 7/29/2016 at 9:05 PM, elang4 said:

To be fair though, after the vow renewal, Rory was only bothered about Luke's reaction saying how mad he was which shows she does care about his opinion. She didn't even worry about her dad's reaction. I agree in Pippi it was a bit overprotective but I think he realised that in the end. Tbh I didn't like Dean either so I didn't really mind! 

Lol I admit my fondness for Dean colours my opinion on it. I thought he was being respectful of Lorelai and Rory and didn't make the night worse, even with how Luke was speaking to him.  

Chris has never been the overbearing dad type so Rory probably didn't take him seriously. Plus, he was drunk. She did seem surprised that Luke was so angry. I don't think she has ever seen Luke be seriously angry, it's usually just his annoyances with Taylor.

 

On 7/30/2016 at 9:44 AM, clack said:

I have to defend season 5 Marty. 

His situation and Luke's are parallel : each are secretly in love with a friend. Is Luke also a creepy Nice Guy?

Also, I can't blame Marty for his friendship with Rory drifting to an end. We don't see the end, but either Rory, hanging out with her new set of friends, no longer has time for Marty, or Marty rightly decides that the friendship wasn't good for his emotional health and so detaches himself. Either way, S5 Marty is blameless. ( Granted, S7 Marty is another matter).

Luke does come across that way, acting territorial around Lorelai with other men as cuddlingcrowley pointed out. Also, his attitude when he found out Lorelai had one date with the young guy back in season two. That's a prime example of the nice guy attitude, if a woman dares to date anyone else her "friend" says mean things to her. Lorelai wouldn't tell him when she was dating Digger. Even Rory commented on Luke being weird about Lorelai's guys. That said, I do think he is a genuine friend to her, and if that's all she wanted then Luke would accept it and still be in her life. 
 

[hippielamb]

Norman Mailer, I'm Pregnant

Funny opening scene at Lorelai's house. Logan is pretty funny on the telephone at the newspaper office. And I liked that he called Rory's bluff about following him. 

I do like that Chris is now the single parent with an ex off living a carefree life. I also liked Lorelai giving him advice. It's not fair what has happened but you do what you have to, same as she did. Rory telling him to stay away from Lorelai has good intentions, and she's rightfully protective of her mom but it's not her place to decide who Lorelai can see. 

Sookie as a bad business partner is in full display. It's a good thing she and Lorelai are friends because that would not fly in a just business partnership. 

You Jump, I Jump, Jack

I really love this episode, one of the few season 5 eps that I have seen many times. Rory is expanding her world view and having a little fun at last. I love that Logan challenges Rory to come out of her safety zone (which includes Dean).That whole plot is enjoyable to watch, the period costumes, the 1920's decorations. It reminds me of The Great Gatsby. 

Richard cracks me up with his dry humour. He's much more pragmatic than Emily about the Luke situation. He knows how stubborn Lorelai is, and it's a waste of time to fight their relationship. Emily did go overboard at dinner but Luke was so confident going in, it was somewhat enjoyable. He's met Emily before, I'm surprised that he thought she would be welcoming to him. 
 
The Party's Over 

Poor Dean, I feel bad for him. He knows that he no longer fits in Rory's world. The end scene where Lorelai sees a drunken Rory is sad. It's what she has tried protecting her daughter from by leaving that world, yet it seeped in. It's a honest (if disappointing) parental moment. Rory's on her own path now, different from what Lorelai would choose for her. 
 

[txhorns79]

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Sookie as a bad business partner is in full display. It's a good thing she and Lorelai are friends because that would not fly in a just business partnership. 

Sookie is the worst.  I felt like if something happened to Lorelai, and Sookie was left in charge, the Dragonfly would close down permanently within a week followed immediately by the entire building exploding because Sookie left the gas on.

[FrumiusManxome]

21 hours ago, 33kaitykaity said:

To weigh in crazy late on the Marty/Rory friendship question, I always thought that Ep10 Chilton student Anna did them in despite Rory's efforts to the contrary in Marx Bros Ep15.  

That's what I always think of as the end of their friendship tbh.  Marty made it clear he was pretty much over it. Rory basically having to beg him to hang out with her in the Marx Bros ep was further evidence to me that Marty was trying to be an adult about it. Rory comes off super inconsiderate and ignorant this entire little arc.

For one thing, Logan was so absolutely terrible to Marty that I still can't believe Rory would date him in the first place (who dates someone who treats their friend that way?), but aside from that once she committed to it she should have had the awareness to keep the two apart. I don't completely blame her since Marty also could have been firm when she kept badgering him, and he also, as others have said, could have made an excuse when Logan came around. I just blame Rory more since she was the one who pushed so hard for the plans and, she could have gone out with Logan any time whereas her relationship with Marty was up in the air so she had no idea if she'd be able to get him to hang out again. 

 

9 hours ago, shron17 said:

It's interesting that both times she did it for Logan, not all that surprising since after a certain point (?) Rory was always scurrying around trying to get Logan to like her.  I didn't realize how much I was starting to dislike her until she went to Logan in BIAG with her I'm a girlfriend girl speech.  But just when she was finally likable again, she let Logan talk her into being her boyfriend, apparently not realizing that just because he insisted he could be her boyfriend didn't make him a good choice for her.

It bothers me a lot that Rory immediately just folded when she knew what type of guy he was. Logan definitely had the potential to be a good boyfriend, as anybody does if they are willing to change and/or meet the right person, however, Rory did not have any real indication of this. He just jumped into it and Rory let him without any real discussion of how this would work or any strict parameters/conditions. It spoke volumes about how desperate she was for him to like her. And I think the undercurrent of that desperation colored their entire relationship. It would have been better for Rory to be rejected and then have to deal with that, maybe even date Logan later down the line. But, because she started dating him when she did Rory often came off as if she felt she had to do things to earn his affection/keep his attention. 

Also, I like Logan well enough. But, like others have said I don't like Logan/Rory together. Rory was just so ugh with him. 

Edited August 1, 2016 by FrumiusManxome

[clack]

Logan & co. are introduced to us by them shouldering Marty out of the way on the sidewalk, and then treating him rudely and condescendingly. To Rory then take up with this crowd is such a betrayal of Marty. Would Rory befriend people who sneered at Lane?

I like the actor playing Marty, but I wonder whether he is miscast. He's too tall ( notably taller than Logan), too good-looking, and not geeky enough to buy as someone who was bullied in high school. Danny Strong (Doyle) might have made for a more plausible Marty.

[hippielamb]

20 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Sookie is the worst.  I felt like if something happened to Lorelai, and Sookie was left in charge, the Dragonfly would close down permanently within a week followed immediately by the entire building exploding because Sookie left the gas on.

Lol! 

I couldn't believe that she went ahead with lunch after they had the meeting and she knew they were losing money. And yelling at two customers! I know it's supposed to be funny but it's not. Lorelai should have told her off before the pregnancy reveal because that was so unprofessional of her to yell at the customers. Ugh

[clack]

On my 1st S5 watch, I couldn't stand the Dean scenes. They were retreading old ground --all right, we get it already, Rory has outgrown him, they are not intellectually compatible.

On the re-watch, however, the S5 Dean scenes seemed to me key in setting up Rory's character arc for the next 2 seasons. There is Stars Hollow, working class Rory, an identity she's always had, but now there's the possibility of a reinvented identity : the grandchild of old money, of wealth and privilege. 

Dean sees her embrace this new identity, and knows that he doesn't belong in that world.

This pattern is then repeated with Marty. Unlike Dean, Marty is intellectually compatible with Rory, but he's poor. He needs to work (as did Rory, at first). In Logan's eyes, Marty is thus a servant. Logan even tells Rory this (couched as "for the purposes of debate") and Rory has no comeback. Where are her debating skills here? On some subconscious level, she accepts Logan's point. We know then that the Rory/Marty friendship is toast.

If Marty is a servant because he tends bar for rich kid parties, what then was Lorelai? She had worked as a maid! Rory is also rejecting that part of her past. Rory is ashamed of growing up poor. She has chosen the world of her grandparents over the world of her mother.

Over the next few seasons, we shall see the consequences of that choice.

[moonb]

That's interesting, because I never thought of Rory as working class or growing up poor, although she sure lived that way those first few years in the shed. My takeaway by the start of the show is that Lorelai lives a middle class life - owns her home, eats out when she pleases, is able to have the life she wants - with the exception of expensive private school for Rory. Certainly Rory never had a regular job that we know of in high school except for helping out at the inn, which might have been at Lorelai's discretion anyway. I got the impression that Marty's high school life wasn't that comfortable, but maybe I'm not remembering right. 

Quote

 

If Marty is a servant because he tends bar for rich kid parties, what then was Lorelai? She had worked as a maid! Rory is also rejecting that part of her past. Rory is ashamed of growing up poor. She has chosen the world of her grandparents over the world of her mother.

Over the next few seasons, we shall see the consequences of that choice.

 

Lorelai chose to leave that life and felt absolutely justified in critiquing because she felt she wasn't a part of it whatsoever, and we see Rory doing the same thing as late as season 7 when Logan calls her out on enjoying a life of privilege with him while mocking that lifestyle in her article.

[readster]

From what I understand from Marty's high school days is was the average kid, didn't do anything special outside worked for his grades and got into Yale on all of that. Finding out his uncle was really his father and basically finding out most of his homelife was a forced choice by his parents and not what he chose. I have the feeling that things were just about school, grades and maybe some dating in that student council type of girls. He never came out as athletic or where he was home coming king or anything. I think he was honor roll and a few other things that that was about it. 

[junienmomo]

An amusing moment in Pippi:

When Rory and Lorelai start singing, Dean looks over at them in surprise, but Luke is completely unfazed by their weirdness. Like of course they would sing the title song.

[katha]

6 hours ago, clack said:

On my 1st S5 watch, I couldn't stand the Dean scenes. They were retreading old ground --all right, we get it already, Rory has outgrown him, they are not intellectually compatible.

On the re-watch, however, the S5 Dean scenes seemed to me key in setting up Rory's character arc for the next 2 seasons. There is Stars Hollow, working class Rory, an identity she's always had, but now there's the possibility of a reinvented identity : the grandchild of old money, of wealth and privilege. 

Dean sees her embrace this new identity, and knows that he doesn't belong in that world.

This pattern is then repeated with Marty. Unlike Dean, Marty is intellectually compatible with Rory, but he's poor. He needs to work (as did Rory, at first). In Logan's eyes, Marty is thus a servant. Logan even tells Rory this (couched as "for the purposes of debate") and Rory has no comeback. Where are her debating skills here? On some subconscious level, she accepts Logan's point. We know then that the Rory/Marty friendship is toast.

If Marty is a servant because he tends bar for rich kid parties, what then was Lorelai? She had worked as a maid! Rory is also rejecting that part of her past. Rory is ashamed of growing up poor. She has chosen the world of her grandparents over the world of her mother.

Over the next few seasons, we shall see the consequences of that choice.

What's interesting in that context is Rory's self-perception. I'd argue that she herself had no understanding what it was like to be working-class, Lorelai struggled as a maid to make ends meet after she chose to leave her parents' house. But by the time we meet the girls in season 1, I'd say they're comfortably middle class. Lorelai needs a loan from her parents to get Rory into a fancy school, that's upper class aspiration. And once they reconcile with Emily and Richard, they have upper class connections and privileges restored (Rory mostly). Rory didn't need regular jobs in high school (helping out at the inn didn't seem like a big deal and like she was doing it every day, more like when she felt like it and wanted extra money) or at Yale, everything was paid for her. And she had access and enjoyed her grandparents' high society world.

But she wanted to see herself as the underdog. She wasn't, though. She couldn't relate to Jess on that front, she viewed Dean's choices after high school with pity, she didn't relate to Marty's need to work to finance college, arguably she didn't relate to Lane and her problems either, she made that snooty comment about Lorelai never going to college. She was pretty comfortable in the world of the rich, yet wanted to pretend that she was better than them and that she had struggled for everything she achieved. It took Logan pointing out that she's just as privileged as all the people she was sneering at in her article to wake her up a bit.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, readster said:

From what I understand from Marty's high school days is was the average kid, didn't do anything special outside worked for his grades and got into Yale on all of that. Finding out his uncle was really his father and basically finding out most of his homelife was a forced choice by his parents and not what he chose. I have the feeling that things were just about school, grades and maybe some dating in that student council type of girls. He never came out as athletic or where he was home coming king or anything. I think he was honor roll and a few other things that that was about it. 

Isn't it that the scene where after Marty tells Rory about learning his uncle was his dad that he asks Rory how her summer went and she answers 'we so should have started with me' or something like that? As if she had a worse summer? Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

[elang4]

4 hours ago, junienmomo said:

An amusing moment in Pippi:

When Rory and Lorelai start singing, Dean looks over at them in surprise, but Luke is completely unfazed by their weirdness. Like of course they would sing the title song.

Haha yeah I noticed that! He doesn't even glance at them. :D

[shron17]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Isn't it that the scene where after Marty tells Rory about learning his uncle was his dad that he asks Rory how her summer went and she answers 'we so should have started with me' or something like that? As if she had a worse summer? Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

I took this to mean that while Rory felt like she had very eventful summer, it was nothing compared to Marty's.

[twoods]

Didn't Rory have to get a job too? I remember she came home and Lorelai had a list of jobs she could do during the break. Also it showed in a few episodes that she was swiping meal cards at the dining hall. Of course, once she started hanging out with the snobs she stopped, and then she mooched off her grandparents and father. 

I also remember her getting mad at Lorelai for clipping coupons before the inn opened- like Lorelai never did that in the past? I find that hard to believe because wouldn't they be accustomed to that after not having a lot of money growing up? Especially after I watched a season two episode where Lorelai needed a loan for the termite damage and nobody would give one because of her savings account, why wouldn't they be cutting coupons? Blows my mind every time.

[readster]

2 minutes ago, twoods said:

Didn't Rory have to get a job too? I remember she came home and Lorelai had a list of jobs she could do during the break. Also it showed in a few episodes that she was swiping meal cards at the dining hall. Of course, once she started hanging out with the snobs she stopped, and then she mooched off her grandparents and father. 

I also remember her getting mad at Lorelai for clipping coupons before the inn opened- like Lorelai never did that in the past? I find that hard to believe because wouldn't they be accustomed to that after not having a lot of money growing up? Especially after I watched a season two episode where Lorelai needed a loan for the termite damage and nobody would give one because of her savings account, why wouldn't they be cutting coupons? Blows my mind every time.

I also never understood that when Rory went on how Lorelai did all these things from magazine subscriptions to cutting coupons. Lore's reasoning for mags was to have something different all the time. If she was getting the free 6 issue sets, that I could understand, but even in the 90s and early 2000s. Subscribing to all those magazines would range up to at least $200 a month for a full subscription. I mean, I know the point was to show that Lorelai had no savings common sense even though she lived in a potting shed for three years. I get that Lorelai worked her way up, had career goals and such. However, really no matter how much I look at it, I don't get how Lorelai had no money at all. Being a single mother and while not worrying about college loan debt or major credit debt. You can't show they had this house that would have up keep and being a general manager she didn't keep them on a strict budget for several years. You wanted to smack Lorelai at times and go: "stop spending money on crap!" 

[chessiegal]

AS-P's approach to finances depends on what plot line she's pushing. If you try to make sense of it, it'll make you crazy. Best to just suspend disbelief. She did the same thing in "Bunheads".

[readster]

14 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

AS-P's approach to finances depends on what plot line she's pushing. If you try to make sense of it, it'll make you crazy. Best to just suspend disbelief. She did the same thing in "Bunheads".

Its also not like she wasn't the only creator to do that with their TV series. I mean Chuck Lore has no idea how finances work for people of high caliber careers like on Big Bang Theory and finances change on a daily basis on Blue Bloods or Grey's Anatomy. The creators of Roseanne never seem to know when it was good to have money and when to have no money if the plot needed it. 

[TwirlyGirly]

4 hours ago, readster said:

 

Never mind....wrong thread!

Edited August 2, 2016 by TwirlyGirly
Posted to wrong thread

[TimetravellingBW]

On 1 August 2016 at 2:06 PM, FrumiusManxome said:

That's what I always think of as the end of their friendship tbh.  Marty made it clear he was pretty much over it. Rory basically having to beg him to hang out with her in the Marx Bros ep was further evidence to me that Marty was trying to be an adult about it. Rory comes off super inconsiderate and ignorant this entire little arc.

For one thing, Logan was so absolutely terrible to Marty that I still can't believe Rory would date him in the first place (who dates someone who treats their friend that way?)

 

On 2 August 2016 at 0:04 AM, clack said:

Logan & co. are introduced to us by them shouldering Marty out of the way on the sidewalk, and then treating him rudely and condescendingly. To Rory then take up with this crowd is such a betrayal of Marty. Would Rory befriend people who sneered at Lane?

How Logan and his friends treated Marty is why I find myself siding with Marty every time and don't feel him walking away from Rory was about being a Nice Guy. The girl he liked started hanging out with people who bullied him (in front of her no less), so he distanced himself from her. To me that's doing the mature, healthy thing and putting his own well-being first. 

Rory made her choice to hang out with Logan's crowd before she knew Marty liked her and I think Marty saw the writing on the wall back then: Not just for any chance of a relationship with Rory but also for the type of person she was becoming. I think most people would drift away from a friend who hung out with people who treated them like crap and didn't defend them. Whether they had a unreciprocated crush or not. It always seemed to me he stopped hanging out with her partly becuase he knew she didn't feel the same way and partly because she was becoming the type of person he didn't want to be friends with. (Hanging out with the LDB gang).

Also I'm not sure we can assume Rory was Marty's "only" friend - he had the breakfast club people in S4 and although he got pantsed in high school that doesn't mean he's a loner in college. Yes he hung out a lot with Rory but he's a pretty friendly guy and he probably had - or could make - other close friends.

On 2 August 2016 at 11:30 AM, clack said:

On my 1st S5 watch, I couldn't stand the Dean scenes. They were retreading old ground --all right, we get it already, Rory has outgrown him, they are not intellectually compatible.

On the re-watch, however, the S5 Dean scenes seemed to me key in setting up Rory's character arc for the next 2 seasons. There is Stars Hollow, working class Rory, an identity she's always had, but now there's the possibility of a reinvented identity : the grandchild of old money, of wealth and privilege. 

Dean sees her embrace this new identity, and knows that he doesn't belong in that world.

This pattern is then repeated with Marty. Unlike Dean, Marty is intellectually compatible with Rory, but he's poor. He needs to work (as did Rory, at first). In Logan's eyes, Marty is thus a servant. Logan even tells Rory this (couched as "for the purposes of debate") and Rory has no comeback. Where are her debating skills here? On some subconscious level, she accepts Logan's point. We know then that the Rory/Marty friendship is toast.

I totally agree that Rory's failure to make it work with Dean was what pushed her to leave her Stars Hollow life and go into her grandparents world. Not necessarily just in terms of class but in Rory wanting to succeed and be comfortable and be adored again. She was adored in the Stars Hollow world in the first 3 seasons, season 4 had her flailing not knowing where she fitted but trying to return to the Stars Hollow world wasn't comforting or secure it was humiliating and a failure. So she turns to her Grandparents world and is popular and adored and "succeeding" again. (Though why Logan and the LDB liked her so much is a question mark).

I think it is telling that Rory and Dean's final break up is triggered by Rory forgetting about Dean because a bunch of rich guys are making a fuss of her. (Though a whole lot of other stuff led up to that). Rory goes where she feels validated and important - see her running from Yale to grandparents/the DAR in S6. 

Edited August 3, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I think it is telling that Rory and Dean's final break up is triggered by Rory forgetting about Dean because a bunch of rich guys are making a fuss of her. (Though a whole lot of other stuff led up to that). Rory goes where she feels validated and important - see her running from Yale to grandparents/the DAR in S6. 

Great point.

[hippielamb]

22 hours ago, clack said:

On my 1st S5 watch, I couldn't stand the Dean scenes. They were retreading old ground --all right, we get it already, Rory has outgrown him, they are not intellectually compatible.

On the re-watch, however, the S5 Dean scenes seemed to me key in setting up Rory's character arc for the next 2 seasons. There is Stars Hollow, working class Rory, an identity she's always had, but now there's the possibility of a reinvented identity : the grandchild of old money, of wealth and privilege. 

Dean sees her embrace this new identity, and knows that he doesn't belong in that world.

This pattern is then repeated with Marty. Unlike Dean, Marty is intellectually compatible with Rory, but he's poor. He needs to work (as did Rory, at first). In Logan's eyes, Marty is thus a servant. Logan even tells Rory this (couched as "for the purposes of debate") and Rory has no comeback. Where are her debating skills here? On some subconscious level, she accepts Logan's point. We know then that the Rory/Marty friendship is toast.

If Marty is a servant because he tends bar for rich kid parties, what then was Lorelai? She had worked as a maid! Rory is also rejecting that part of her past. Rory is ashamed of growing up poor. She has chosen the world of her grandparents over the world of her mother.

Over the next few seasons, we shall see the consequences of that choice.

Rory does seem to forget her roots. Her lack of empathy for the maid when Logan steals the trinket is hard to watch. Especially considering that Lorelai worked as a maid and would have been in the same predicament if something went missing. You could chalk this up to Rory's lack of a spine but she knew Emily would fire the maid and still said nothing. 

I thought they revisited the Dean story because he was safe and comforting to Rory. She said something like, you brought Stars Hollow here (to Lane) that showed she was craving safety and home. Now, in season 5 she no longer needs that because she's not floundering and instead is gravitating more to her grandparents world. 

7 hours ago, twoods said:

I also remember her getting mad at Lorelai for clipping coupons before the inn opened- like Lorelai never did that in the past? I find that hard to believe because wouldn't they be accustomed to that after not having a lot of money growing up? Especially after I watched a season two episode where Lorelai needed a loan for the termite damage and nobody would give one because of her savings account, why wouldn't they be cutting coupons? Blows my mind every time.

It's inconsistent because when Lorelai got the money from Richard back in season 3, they both commented that they would no longer have to clip coupons. 

I think Lorelai lived paycheque to paycheque and didn't consider cutting back to save money until she was in dire straits, like we saw in season 4. I was like that for many years and I know people who still live that way. 

[junienmomo]

Tippecanoe and Taylor too

Rory and Dean were not good at finding places to be together. They didn't even mention the Crap Shack. Lorelai was there, but she is the only one apparently in SH who was trying to accept them and not rub it in Lindsay's face. Dean must have been feeling ultra guilty. 

Sookie's bit as a campaign wife was funny, but I can't recall her doing anything except cook ever, so it seemed like a bit of a non sequitur.

Lorelai was utterly adorable with Luke, running the gamut from sweet to sarcastic to loving.