The Star Wars Saga

[Kel Varnsen]

14 hours ago, ursula said:

That's literally what the Jedi Order is supposed to be. 

I thought they were more like a police/security Force than an army just because of their size. And doesn't Qui gon or Obi-won even say they can't fight a war.

9 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

Episode Two: They meet again, and because Padme's stoicism, self-control and self-denial is more clearly emphasized, it's obvious why she might be attracted to a (as described above) daring but reckless knight. They keep getting thrown into life-or-death situations, he's obviously interested, and the forbidden fruit aspect of it all makes the red flags easier to ignore. (Also, no Anakin confessing to Padme that he'd just killed a bunch of kids. Any sane woman would have run a mile).

Yeah the good girl falling for the bad boy would have been super cliche, but it would have been way better than what we got. Way better than the adult woman falling for the much younger guy that she basically used to babysit when he was an 8 year old.

One thing I did like after rewatching the prequels is how it made me appreciate how in the Last Jedi, Luke thought the Jedi order was bullshit and the council were a bunch of jerks. Because they kind of were. Among other things in episode 1 we have Yoda talking about how a Jedi can't have any fear, but then in episode 3 Yoda is like "things are getting scary I need to go into hiding". The funny thing is my daughter and I now are watching Rogue One and it is interesting to see how Yoda could have been a big help to the resistance.

Also one little thing I never noticed before; if Yoda is a master of the force, why does he need to walk with a cane?

[Chyromaniac]

2 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I thought they were more like a police/security Force than an army just because of their size. And doesn't Qui gon or Obi-won even say they can't fight a war.

I believe so- Mace also says that they are “keepers of the peace, not soldiers.”  Personally, I feel like the Jedi are basically like the medieval knights errant, or old west sheriffs- lone warriors who wander into town, solve disputes and right wrongs, and then ride out into the sunset.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I thought they were more like a police/security Force than an army just because of their size. And doesn't Qui gon or Obi-won even say they can't fight a war.

Yeah the good girl falling for the bad boy would have been super cliche, but it would have been way better than what we got. Way better than the adult woman falling for the much younger guy that she basically used to babysit when he was an 8 year old.

One thing I did like after rewatching the prequels is how it made me appreciate how in the Last Jedi, Luke thought the Jedi order was bullshit and the council were a bunch of jerks. Because they kind of were. Among other things in episode 1 we have Yoda talking about how a Jedi can't have any fear, but then in episode 3 Yoda is like "things are getting scary I need to go into hiding". The funny thing is my daughter and I now are watching Rogue One and it is interesting to see how Yoda could have been a big help to the resistance.

Also one little thing I never noticed before; if Yoda is a master of the force, why does he need to walk with a cane?

They kind of were. I know Lucas was trying to show them having become so compliant and even Yoda points out in the second episode that many of the Jedi have grown arrogant. Although I'm not entirely sure he meant the council which really was. But Obi Wan mentions in the first episode that if only Qui Gon went along with the Council he would be on it. Great so everyone on the Council are Jedi who agree with each other or go along with whatever the Council wants because its the only way to be on it. That's a great idea. What could possibly go wrong there? We see it too. Their quick to blow off the idea the Sith could be back despite Qui Gon's attacker clearly is a Sith. They blow off Anakin being the Chosen One or even training him.

Their first meeting with Anakin was horrible. Here's a boy who just spend his entire childhood in slavery, left everyone he knew, his home and mother who is still in slave and their jerks to him. "Your thoughts dwell on your mother? Well no shit. He left her behind and she's still in slaved. Then tell him to his face nope he won't be a Jedi because he's too old. Then the next episode the Council is oddly relaxed about him Obi Wan tells him his worries about Anakin (which are true) but basically blow him of despite the fact he knows Anakin and then in Revenge of the Sith act like they hate Anakin. Mace specifically. Yes, Anakin whined in the council which was crap. But even before then they really seemed before then. Yoda and Mace are very quick to dismiss the fact that Anakin the Chosen one. They flip flop in each episode and we don't really know why. Why did the blow him off in the Phantom Menace? Did they think it was a better idea not to train him and leave him on his means without any training in the Force? What he goes off to an orphanage or something? Obi Wan too is odd. He and Anakin get into that small argument after Anakin promises Padme they'll find out who's after her. Obi Wan interrupts him and tells him they won't exceeded their mandate. But shouldn't they be trying to figure out who's behind the assassination attempts? What is Obi Wan's plan? Just to be a bodyguard for a few days and call it good? Obi Wan blowing off Anakin's dreams doesn't really make any sense either. He's trained Anakin for ten years now. Has he ever had prophetic dreams before? If he hasn't then it would make more sense that he blows them off. But it doesn't make any sense if Anakin has that kind of power that would have been his first prophetic dream. Qui Gon knew he did he told Anakin's mother that he sees things before they happen. So that would have happened a lot while Obi Wan was training him. Also Obi Wan and the entire Council don't ever do anything to try and free Anakin's mother? I know Jedi aren't suppose to have attachments. But freeing her would allow Anakin to focus more on being a Jedi and not worry so much about what's going to happen to his still enslaved mother and any guilt he has for leaving her enslaved. Also, you know its the right thing to do. But they don't. 

[andromeda331]

20 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Well that is some super annoying storytelling. If you are going to make the ordering of the clones a mystery, it doesn't have to be obvious (like easy to solve) but at least make it clear that it is a mystery without having to read a ton of supplemental material. I also still don't understand why none of the Jedis thought something was up (or at least worth questioning) when the guy who was the model for all the clones was also working for the separatists.

I agree. As great as the books and Clone Wars is the bulk of the information should be in the actual movies. That's the whole point.

[ursula]

8 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I thought they were more like a police/security Force than an army just because of their size. And doesn't Qui gon or Obi-won even say they can't fight a war.

Yes, the Jedi Order were the centralized, not-affiliated-with-any-system armed forces. They weren’t an army because the Republic didn’t need an army. The Republic was a federation of independent self-governing systems.The Clone Wars was a civil war, and not an external conflict.

The entire point of the Prequels was that Palpatine manipulated events to create the need for an army so that he could turn a union of independent states into a single empire, governed by him, and enforced by said army. 

The problem wasn't that the Republic lacked an army, it's that the senate's corruption allowed bodies and systems like the Trade Federation to run unchecked and get their own armies. That the blockade of Naboo which was unethical, if not illegal, was permitted. And that the Jedi Order who had a spiritual and ethical mandate to uphold justice, had become complacent and morphed that mandate to "upholding the Senate's (wrong) decisions".

That there was slavery on Tatooine but the Jedi didn't do anything about it because Tatooine wasn't part of the Republic, it was "out of their jurisdiction" as if the Force had political boundaries. 

That's why the Order went from saying "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers" to becoming generals in a civil war. They had been sliding down a slippery slope without even realizing it.

And all that is from the movies themselves, not from any supplementary material. You didn't need to know the ins and outs of how the Clone Army was commissioned to know that the Jedi leading it was a bad idea, and that it would bite them in their asses. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by ursula

[Perfect Xero]

18 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

This guy does a really good job of creating a more engaging story for the prequels using Lucas' blueprint of plot points and characters. He does carry over the changes he made in TPM through to the other movies.

The Phantom Menace

Attack of the Clones

Revenge of the Sith

I've watched these before, I'm not saying his ideas are bad (though some of them I was kind of iffy about), but you can give an outline of the same prequel trilogy that we all saw and make it sound like an interesting and compelling look at the fall of the Jedi Order and Republic without changing any of the plot points. Most of the failings of the prequels are in the execution of the ideas and themes by the writing and directing filling out that outline.

I think the most interesting change he proposes (which, in an example of how hard writing a coherent story can be, he didn't figure out until the Ep 2 video and then announced as a retroactive change to the previous video) was changing the events on Naboo to Alderaan and making Padme the sister of Bail Organa.

[Bill1978]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

was changing the events on Naboo to Alderaan and making Padme the sister of Bail Organa.

This reminded me of a question I've always had about Leia since the prequels came out. How come she is a Princess if her adoptive parents aren't royalty. Did I miss something because no one addresses Bail as HRH or Prince. And it would seem weird that Leia gets to keep the princess title after adoption because her birth mum was a queen.

[Anduin]

1 minute ago, Bill1978 said:

This reminded me of a question I've always had about Leia since the prequels came out. How come she is a Princess if her adoptive parents aren't royalty. Did I miss something because no one addresses Bail as HRH or Prince. And it would seem weird that Leia gets to keep the princess title after adoption because her birth mum was a queen.

No, her adopted mother, Breha, was queen. That's all retcon, of course. Essentially, George Lucas liked it and retrofit everything else to support it. 🙂

[Bill1978]

8 minutes ago, Anduin said:

No, her adopted mother, Breha, was queen. That's all retcon, of course. Essentially, George Lucas liked it and retrofit everything else to support it.

Ah so that brief scene at the end of Revenge of the Sith I was meant to notice that Bail was married to a Queen. Thank you again Lucas for making it so obvious.

And a genuine thank you for the explanation. 

[Anduin]

6 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

Ah so that brief scene at the end of Revenge of the Sith I was meant to notice that Bail was married to a Queen. Thank you again Lucas for making it so obvious.

And a genuine thank you for the explanation. 

I'm just happy any time my borderline useless trivia is actually helpful. 🙂

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I've watched these before, I'm not saying his ideas are bad (though some of them I was kind of iffy about), but you can give an outline of the same prequel trilogy that we all saw and make it sound like an interesting and compelling look at the fall of the Jedi Order and Republic without changing any of the plot points. Most of the failings of the prequels are in the execution of the ideas and themes by the writing and directing filling out that outline.

I think the most interesting change he proposes (which, in an example of how hard writing a coherent story can be, he didn't figure out until the Ep 2 video and then announced as a retroactive change to the previous video) was changing the events on Naboo to Alderaan and making Padme the sister of Bail Organa.

No not all of them were bad. Some of them were really good. Given Owen and Bail more to do and more of connection would have good. Bail was super important in the rebellion although it never really comes up in the movies. Naboo and Alderaan are really similar both peaceful, Alderaan had no weapons, Naboo had no standing army only volunteer. I laughed really hard at Palpatine showing up as Anakin got kicked out of the Jedi Order not only was he offering him a job but he brought a banner with him that read Congratulations New Promotion on it. That was oddly prepared and oddly nice. 

The prequals had a lot of really good ideas. Badly executed and they really needed to plot out all three movies. There was so much they'd have to do. Introduce the Jedi, the Council, Anakin, Padme, Palpatine, Separatists, Dooku and Maul while also setting them up, showing the problems, conflict, Palpatine manipulating everything and how it went so wrong. Similar to the problem with Anakin. They had so much to do and only three movies to get it done.

[Zuleikha]

I think three movies paced well would have been plenty of time. Get rid of Phantom Menace and you can add in a Clone Wars movie. That alone solves so many of the problems. (also, as others have mentioned, starts the Padme/Anakin secret romance at an age appropriate point!)

[Perfect Xero]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

No not all of them were bad. Some of them were really good. Given Owen and Bail more to do and more of connection would have good. Bail was super important in the rebellion although it never really comes up in the movies. Naboo and Alderaan are really similar both peaceful, Alderaan had no weapons, Naboo had no standing army only volunteer. I laughed really hard at Palpatine showing up as Anakin got kicked out of the Jedi Order not only was he offering him a job but he brought a banner with him that read Congratulations New Promotion on it. That was oddly prepared and oddly nice. 

The prequals had a lot of really good ideas. Badly executed and they really needed to plot out all three movies. There was so much they'd have to do. Introduce the Jedi, the Council, Anakin, Padme, Palpatine, Separatists, Dooku and Maul while also setting them up, showing the problems, conflict, Palpatine manipulating everything and how it went so wrong. Similar to the problem with Anakin. They had so much to do and only three movies to get it done.

I agree that having Bail and Lars be a bigger part of the story was a good idea. I'm not sure that having Owen making a speech where he basically explains the themes of the film to the audience, however, is a great idea.

The Phantom Menace is just a poor start for the pacing of the trilogy. You could pretty easily just merge the 10 minutes of plot important stuff from TPM into the beginning of Attack of the Clones and free up an entire film in the trilogy.

I know a lot of people list Attack as the worst Star Wars film, but TPM is the worst for me, it's just incredibly boring with the only real exception being scenes that include Maul.

[Spartan Girl]

Whatever you think of the Anakin/Padme stuff, their "Across the Stars" theme by John Williams was a lovely music score.

[blueray]

Helpful for those who forgot some of what happened and need a refresher.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I agree that having Bail and Lars be a bigger part of the story was a good idea. I'm not sure that having Owen making a speech where he basically explains the themes of the film to the audience, however, is a great idea.

The Phantom Menace is just a poor start for the pacing of the trilogy. You could pretty easily just merge the 10 minutes of plot important stuff from TPM into the beginning of Attack of the Clones and free up an entire film in the trilogy.

I know a lot of people list Attack as the worst Star Wars film, but TPM is the worst for me, it's just incredibly boring with the only real exception being scenes that include Maul.

Yes, the speech was too much. Its not that it was bad that they made Owen, Anakin's stepbrother it just as he pointed out in the episode Owen only met Anakin once briefly and that was it. Its hard to imagine anyone taking in a baby even if that person was technically related when you only met once. Have them being friends, Bail related to Padme and the four being friends makes better since.

I don't really hate either movie. There's a lot I like about The Phantom Menace. But it really is unnecessary. They easily could have done what you suggested merge ten minutes of Phantom Menace with Attack of the Clones or flashbacks. You get more time with the characters we do need to get to know. That way it'll be so much more tragic when everything goes to Sith (or Shit?). Order 66 was shocking and good but for me a lot of it comes from having watched the Clone Wars where you really see and get to know the different Jedi and makes it even more shocking and terrible when you see them being killed off. Same with the different planets we see, Senators and other people. We know by the end of the third movie all of these people are going to be dead or under the Empire, all of these planets are going to fall under the Empire.

I'm not entirely sure his plan for how the Jedi die in Revenge of the Sith makes sense. Palpatine aka Sith don't just want to kill all the Jedi he wants to destroy their reputations and everything else. He wants them to be seen as these horrible people not just for power and to kill them without getting caught. Because he's a Sith. He wants them destroyed so completely and to feel betrayed. But there were a lot of ways for George Lucas to get there or have it done. Maybe have them completely betrayed during the battle or the Clones turn on them during it. The point about Anakin's turning is he needs to get to the Vader who kills and doesn't care. The Vader who we heard hunted down and killed the Jedi. Having the Jedi die badly and not knowing if Padme is dead or alive doesn't get him to that point. 

Anakin and the Council are at odds in Revenge of the Sith but they don't tell us why. Sure Anakin's whining but he has gone out and fought tons of battles and won. He's done everything they've asked of him. Watching the Clone Wars at the end we see why Anakin could be pissed at the Council given how they badly screwed over his Padawan. But none of that was in the movie and most likely wasn't even thought up yet. We need to know why Anakin's ticked at the council and why the Council is ticked with him. This is going to help fuel Anakin's break with them we need to know why. What happened? Especially when they seemed so relaxed about Anakin in Attack of the Clones.

[Perfect Xero]

Thought about posting this is the RIse of Skywalker thread about some of the reviews, but figured it was more fitting here. Also, I won't be seeing RoS until Sunday ... so:

I'm not too surprised by the reviews saying the new movie was trying to do a lot. There was always going to be a ton of ground to cover in Rise of Skywalker.

Does any character who played a major role in TFA end up in a markedly different place at the end of Jedi from where where they were at the end of Awakens?

Luke and Snoke are killed off, but they were largely absent as on screen presences in TFA.

Kylo Ren has the most advancement of any character in TLJ, he becomes the top leader of TFO by killing Snoke instead of the #2 guy, his motivation changes a bit, he goes from wanting to destroy the Republic to rebuild the empire to ... wanting to destroy the Resistance so he can build his own version of the Empire, or maybe he just wants to destroy everything? I'm not sure that the end result is actually all that different in practical terms.

Finn gets a girlfriend, maybe,? So now he's not a possible love interest for Rey or Poe?

Rey is the young jedi ready to advance her training and defeat The First Order. Ren is the evil force user who is the on the leader of The First Order and prone to big loud temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way. Poe is a great pilot and a trusted member of The Resistance. Finn is the guy who learned to fight for what he loves after trying to run away. The Resistance is a rag tag group trying to fight The First Order without the Republic's help.

TLJ introduces a bunch of struggles for the characters then resolves them by the end and ties them with a neat bow in a way that leaves them all the same people they were before the movie started. It creates an illusion of growth and advancement, but it's ultimately a filler episode  that reinforces who the characters are and doubles down on the situation they were already in.

This sort of thing is fine if it's an episode of a TV show, or if it's a marvel movie and there are another half dozen films in this phase. But TFA was the middle act of a trilogy and, in that role, it advanced almost nothing from the first act in favor of presenting a moral about learning from failure, leaving ROS to have to work as both the second and third acts of the story.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Perfect Xero
got a name wrong

[Cobalt Stargazer]

LOL @ the last one.

 

[GenerationX]

5, 4, 6, 9, 3, 7, 1, 2, 8.

[benteen]

Rogue One was the best of the Disney Star Wars movies.

As much as I like the Qui-Gon character, his presence forces the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship to play catch-up and GL drops the ball here.  The first scene with Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC on the elevator, sharing a laugh, was a scene GL added after initial filming because he wanted to show that they were friends.  He realized that if it wasn't there, the two of them are just hostile to each other throughout the movie and they are.  They are on much better terms in ROTS but there's no consistency there.  In AOTC, Anakin says Obi-Wan is like a father to him and in ROTS, Obi-Wan says that Anakin is like his brother.  In AOTC, the Council has faith in Anakin while Obi-Wan expresses his doubts about him.  In ROTS, the Council (Mace in particular) doesn't trust Anakin while Obi-Wan defends him.

[VCRTracking]

The reason I'm satisfied with the sequel trilogy is that despite the 2 wildly different voices there really was a progression for me through all three movies of "childhood-adolescence-young adulthood". In TFA the new characters all felt like little kids to me: Finn and Poe with their instant "We're best friends!" energy like it's the first day of school, Rey with her home made dolls and putting on the Rebel pilot helmet while eating, Kylo Ren with his tantrums. Han taking Rey and Finn to Maz Kanata's felt like going to grandma's. TLJ they felt like teenagers: rebellious, hormonal, reckless, and above all obnoxious. Doing stuff behind the substitute teacher's back, sneaking off to meet a boy, getting arrested, etc. TROS they were like early 20s grad students: Rey is getting her degree from Professor Leia, Finn and Poe are interns, they're going to Burning Man, etc.

Edited January 2, 2020 by VCRTracking

[ursula]

5 hours ago, benteen said:

They are on much better terms in ROTS but there's no consistency there.  In AOTC, Anakin says Obi-Wan is like a father to him and in ROTS, Obi-Wan says that Anakin is like his brother.  In AOTC, the Council has faith in Anakin while Obi-Wan expresses his doubts about him.  In ROTS, the Council (Mace in particular) doesn't trust Anakin while Obi-Wan defends him.

That's deliberate. Anakin seeing Obi Wan as a father while Obi Wan sees him as a brother is a core conflict in their relationship and the dynamic was planted there right from TPM when Qui Gon pushed for Obi Wan's graduation so he could train Anakin and Obi Wan inherited Anakin from his own "father". Or in other words, Obi Wan sees Anakin as his "father", Qui Gon's kid. Anakin sees Obi Wan as his new dad. And the difference in the council and Obi Wan's assessment of Anakin (being suitable to be on the Council, as a 'request' from Palpatine) is a direct result of 3 years of civil conflict. 

*Sighs* I know the Prequels have issues but it's infuriating when the complaints are basically "this is not the story I expected so it must be wrong".

Edited January 2, 2020 by ursula

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

*Sighs* I know the Prequels have issues but it's infuriating when the complaints are basically "this is not the story I expected so it must be wrong".

Sorry. At this point, we've really brought it on ourselves, though.

 

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Sorry. At this point, we've really brought it on ourselves, though.

 

That's a 100% accurate summation of fandom. 

Someone on Reddit was complaining that there was no set up for Palpatine's return and his new fleet, but there was no set up for a new Death Star in Return of the Jedi either. It's the same flaw - a new, all-powerful enemy weapon that has to be defeated imminently.

We can pick any movie apart if we choose to, but the old ones are protected by the nostalgia factor, while the new ones are expected to live up to what we pretend that the old ones were.

I've really enjoyed the way the Blind Wave guys have dealt with the new Star Wars movies. They're all superfans and have been moved to tears by some parts of the new trilogy, while not holding back in criticising other parts. But they take great pains not to brand entire movies as terrible, because they didn't like some of the things in them. I actually just watched their review of The Last Jedi, and something one of them said made complete sense to me - that the movie had some of his absolute favourite Star Wars moments in it, but also some of his absolute least favourite. And that's fine. We're allowed to like some parts of a thing without being shamed for it.

I don't think I've ever watched a movie that I loved every part of. There's always something that rankles. But you have to decide whether the stuff you don't like outweighs the stuff you do, and for the new Star Wars trilogy, that hasn't ever been a hard decision for me.

[Sakura12]

25 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Sorry. At this point, we've really brought it on ourselves, though.

 

Read more  

We can pick any movie apart if we choose to, but the old ones are protected by the nostalgia factor, while the new ones are expected to live up to what we pretend that the old ones were.

This. We were not as critical or nitpicky back then or even if we were we didn't have the outlet to say it. The originals have flaws and storylines that were not set up in the previous ones. I think its more that people have made up stories in their heads about what they wanted and were mad that their head canon wasn't what they got. 

Was this sequel trilogy perfect, no. But no movie is. If I walked away having enjoyed most of it. It did its job for me. I also had no expectations, I just watch their movies to see an action space soap opera. 

[ICantDoThatDave]

13 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Someone on Reddit was complaining that there was no set up for Palpatine's return and his new fleet, but there was no set up for a new Death Star in Return of the Jedi either. It's the same flaw - a new, all-powerful enemy weapon that has to be defeated imminently.

They're fundamentally different scenarios though.  One would be like if there was a band of rebels trying to overthrow the US government & they blew up the Pentagon.  The US government could then conceivably rebuild the Pentagon - Pentagon 2.0 - because they still have the resources & the control.

The second scenario is more like if the rebels blew up the Pentagon & succeeded in overthrowing the US government, destroying all their planes & tanks in the process.  Then somehow the scattered remnants of the old US government builds a secret bigger Pentagon - Pentagon 3.0 - & also constructs a whole new armada of planes & tanks without the rebels noticing.

One is plausible, the other makes no sense.

Edited January 3, 2020 by ICantDoThatDave

[Danny Franks]

18 minutes ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

They're fundamentally different scenarios though.  One would be like if there was a band of rebels trying to overthrow the US government & they blew up the Pentagon.  The US government could then conceivably rebuild the Pentagon - Pentagon 2.0 - because they still have the resources & the control.

The second scenario is more like if the rebels blew up the Pentagon & succeeded in overthrowing the US government, destroying all their planes & tanks in the process.  Then somehow the scattered remnants of the old US government builds a secret bigger Pentagon - Pentagon 3.0 - & also constructs a whole new armada of planes & tanks without the rebels noticing.

One is plausible, the other makes no sense.

More accurately, it would be like the US hiding away a significant number of planes and tanks because the guy in charge was a lunatic who believed in his own immortality and felt he needed a backup plan if everything went wrong. Which is what happened. Those weren't supposed to be brand new Star Destroyers, from what I can tell, they were just ships that Palpatine had been hoarding in secret while he regained enough power and schemed to create the First Order to destabilise and destroy the new Republic.

But if we're going to start arguing about the plausibility of Star Wars, then we're really off the reservation. Regardless, the point I was making was not about plausibility, but about narrative structure - if the complaint is about the Final Order not being set up in a previous movie, then it is the same flaw that Return of the Jedi has.

[absnow54]

I agree that SM offers viewers a platform to be louder and angrier, and the fact that filmmakers are also on SM has created a toxic sense of entitlement. But I don’t think the OT is treated without fault. It’s just discussions about plot holes exist is small bubbles every few years. The big Jabba Heist in Jedi, for example, was picked apart a few years ago. Teddy bears taking down the Empire is an extreme sore spot. The timeline of The Empire Strikes Back has thesis dedicated to it. They made a whole movie to defend the weakness on the Death Star. These movies have been picked apart for decades, and now there’s new fodder to pick apart all over again. 

[ICantDoThatDave]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

More accurately, it would be like the US hiding away a significant number of planes and tanks because the guy in charge was a lunatic who believed in his own immortality and felt he needed a backup plan if everything went wrong. Which is what happened. Those weren't supposed to be brand new Star Destroyers, from what I can tell, they were just ships that Palpatine had been hoarding in secret while he regained enough power and schemed to create the First Order to destabilise and destroy the new Republic.

Sounds like we're in agreement: "...the other makes no sense."

[Cobalt Stargazer]

25 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I agree that SM offers viewers a platform to be louder and angrier, and the fact that filmmakers are also on SM has created a toxic sense of entitlement. But I don’t think the OT is treated without fault. It’s just discussions about plot holes exist is small bubbles every few years. The big Jabba Heist in Jedi, for example, was picked apart a few years ago. Teddy bears taking down the Empire is an extreme sore spot. The timeline of The Empire Strikes Back has thesis dedicated to it. They made a whole movie to defend the weakness on the Death Star. These movies have been picked apart for decades, and now there’s new fodder to pick apart all over again. 

I think the picking apart has gotten a lot meaner, for lack of a better word to use. One of the main complaints I've seen about TROS is that Abrams did way too much for just one film in addition to refusing to commit to anything in a frantic attempt to make everyone happy. Maybe the second thing is fair, since waffling pleases no one, but given the way the collective We have behaved for the past two years, I'd be shocked if he wasn't scared shitless the entire time he was filming. It gives me a complex just thinking about it, and I don't have to worry about ten million strangers deciding I'm a hack who should be banned from the industry. Rian Johnson, whether anyone thought TLJ was awful or not, was probably delighted to be replaced for the sake of the ulcer I've decided he acquired in the aftermath of the film's release.

I think discussion of films can and should be encouraged. It's fine not to like something or even to hate something. But when I posted the ROTJ meme on Facebook, I got a comment that said the worst thing about Star Wars these days is the fans. Maybe it isn't true for the most part, but when it is, it really is.

[absnow54]

@Cobalt Stargazer you make good points. I mostly isolate myself from social media discussions and prefer places like this to discuss the movies, where I think everyone has rational criticisms and productive conversations, so when we get on the topic of toxic fandom, it seems unfair to discussions going on here, where I think the criticisms are perfectly valid.

I didn’t love this new trilogy, but I think I might warm to it with time thanks to some of the concepts brought up here. I’ll also continue to wave my fist at the seeming unlimited power of the First and Final Order because I feel like this trilogy had poor world building that shot itself in the foot from the start. This trilogy hasn’t had the benefit of time for the creators to fill in all the missing details the way George Lucas did for 20 years between the OT and PT. As was discussed in the ROS thread, there were tons of concepts that were never mentioned once in the OT, that people just knew. I’m sure if I walked out of RotJ today without all the supplemental context I’ve absorbed over 30 years, I’d be thinking WTF was that? too. 

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

Sounds like we're in agreement: "...the other makes no sense."

None of it really "makes sense." It's a fantasy story about space rebels vs an evil empire, with characters who use laser swords to fight one another, and can control mystical space energy.

But Palpatine's plan does make sense, in the logic of Star Wars - he's the same man who apparently spent years slowly enacting his plans, gathering the reins of power, neutering the senate, commissioning an army of clones that are implanted with a single, secret order and grooming evil apprentices. Of course he had contingencies if anything went wrong.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Danny Franks

[Zuleikha]

Yeah, Palpatine is a character where it is completely believable that he WOULD have a backup plan that involved secret resources on a hidden planet and that he COULD have a backup plan. His characterization is to do complex, long-term strategies to gain and hoard power. Compared to what he pulled off with the creation of the clones --> destruction of the Jedi plot, hiding a fleet on a Sith homeworld and resurrecting himself seems simple. And as Emperor, he could easily siphon off resources during his 30 year reign... heck, since he's Emperor, it wouldn't even count as siphoning off resources.

For me, this is actually something that becomes more plausible, the more I think about it. Palpatine's OT plot put him at physical risk, and he knows Anakin/Vader's personality very well. The prequel trilogy established him as having explored the Dark Side specifically in context of creation of life. So not much of a leap to think that he learned how to use the Dark Side for a resurrection and that he was prepared to need it in the event that  Luke successfully turned Vader instead of Vader turning Luke.

(of course, the whole planet destroying power of the Star Destroyers is not exactly plausible, but Star Wars isn't exactly full of realistic sci-fi tech)

[andromeda331]

There's a scene in Attack of the Clones that bugs me (well one of many) when Anakin and Padme are talking about the government Anakin says he doesn't think it works and describes how he thinks it should be which is basically how the Congress works in general but adds the made too and Padme thinks it sounds like a dictatorship Anakin remarks with the line well if it works. She looks shocked until she decides he's making fun of her. But we're suppose to think Anakin was being honest and signs he's all for an Empire. Or signs he's clearly going down the wrong path. While Anakin's wrong about the wise one making things happen is it really surprising that Anakin thinks that? The Republic/Congress/Democracy has been around for at least a thousand years but that didn't stop Anakin, his mother and others from being slaves. He was born a slave and only got out because Qui Gon showed up needing parts that Watto wouldn't sell for a reasonable price, and he had to leave his mother who as far as he knew up to that scene with Padme was still a slave. How much more interesting that scene could have gone if Anakin had pointed that out? "That sounds like a dictatorship." "Well the Republic and Congress didn't stop me from being born into slavery. Almost everyone I knew was a slave. My mother is still a slave." Him pointed out that since leaving Tatooine nothing had been done to stop it or end it. Why? Padme clearly didn't know slavery was still a thing but then doesn't do anything about it. She spent a few days in Shmi's home, fed them and her son helped them so much. Padme was fine to leave and not do anything. She didn't go home and look into the Republic anti-slavery laws, do something to extend their reach everywhere or just do something or at least try?

Qui Gon didn't seem as surprise so its more likely that the Jedi did know. That should have been more reasons why Anakin has issues with the Jedi. He wanted to free the slaves, left to become a Jedi. It had to eat at him surrounded by people with so much power, respect and influence weren't doing anything about the situation he grew up in. He had to wonder why the Jedi didn't do anything and at some point he had to realize that Jedi had to of known there were still slaves in galaxy and weren't really doing anything about it.  Become annoyed or frustrated at going all over the galaxy to help other people but not back to Tatooine to few the slaves including his mother. 

[Zuleikha]

Was there ever an explanation for why the Jedi didn't free the slaves on Tatooine? IIRC, slavery was illegal and Tatooine only got away with it because it was an Outer Rim planet.

[Anduin]

30 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

Was there ever an explanation for why the Jedi didn't free the slaves on Tatooine? IIRC, slavery was illegal and Tatooine only got away with it because it was an Outer Rim planet.

Tatooine wasn't part of the Republic. Jedi couldn't act there. Openly, at least. It's possible they could have sent an off-the-books team to remove some of the Hutts from power at the point of a lightsabre, but the Hutts are the type to have sources of intelligence within the Republic. For that matter, threatening or killing people when not threatened is supposed to be against the Jedi code.

If I remember TCW, the Republic didn't want to antagonise the Hutts. Didn't want them siding with the Separatists. Suggests that as a collective, the Hutts are powerful enough not to be messed with.

[andromeda331]

Yeah, that was pretty much how the Jedi responded. By not doing anything. Shmi says the Republic doesn't exit out there and that's really it. They don't do anything, they don't try to do anything. Its another good way to show how complacent the Jedi have become. Why don't they do anything? Is it because its not in the Republic? Jedi go on missions all over the galaxy helping various planets and groups.  But don't do anything on Tatooine. Is it because its the Hutts? The senate? Both? Or that they don't really want to get involved unless requested or asked by the senate or someone in the Republic? We learn in the Phantom Menace that Qui Gon would be on the Council if he went along with them. So the Jedi Council only appoints those Jedi they know who will go along with whatever the Council wants. Qui Gon clearly can't do that and never ends up on the Council. They are quick to dismiss him that he was attack by Sith despite him being attacked by someone trained in the Force. Either he was an ex-Jedi or he's a Sith. They were quick to dismiss Anakin despite him clearly being very strong in the Force because he's too old. He's nine. He was in slaved it wasn't as if he had a way to get to a Jedi. But they were so quick to dismiss someone who could be the chosen one because of his age. The Jedi seem to take their job, code or mandate as just that.  When assigned to protected Padme in Attack of the Clones Obi Wan seems to take it as literal as possible. Protect Padme. That's it. Anakin thinks that it means they should find out who's trying to kill her. Obi Wan disagrees because he thinks that exceeds their mandate. So he thinks they should keep protecting her indefinitely? Shouldn't finding out who wants her dead be part of that? Padme tells the Council she thinks that Dooku is behind the attack which of course we learn is correct. He was doing so in order to get the Trade Federation to join the Separatists.  But the Jedi Council dismisses it completely. They won't even bother to entertain the idea despite him being the leader of the opposition. Its not a bad place to start. If not him maybe start with the group that wanted her dead last time. For all their powers, helping various planets and missions. The Jedi are oddly hesitate to get involved in a lot of things they really should. But for the most part and this is the Council's fault, they don't. It doesn't even occur to them to.

You'd think that would be what fuels Anakin's issues with the Council. He has to know how lucky he got by Qui Gon showing up at Watto's shop. The ten years as Padawan he has to see how often they don't get involved. They don't do things. He spent nine years as slave. He had to leave his mother behind still in slaved. His friends and so many other people he knows back on Tatooine are still enslaved. Anakin knows this and he sees the Jedi not doing anything. Even if its at the most optimistic Anakin thought the Jedi could do anything during his nine years growing up. They could make anything happen, do anything, and no one could kill them. But the ten years as Jedi seeing the Jedi not completely true. They do a lot of things and help a lot of people. But there's a lot of things they don't do or don't get involved in. That their limited whether its by the Jedi Council, their abilities or maybe not as many Jedi. It would be easier for him to think its not working, the Jedi aren't doing enough or can't do enough to help everyone. Its another way for him to see the great systems of the Republic the senate and the Jedi Order not as great or not able to do as much as they should or he thinks they should or unable to. Giving him more reason to start thinking this isn't working. That it needs to be more or that the Jedi need to be more then it is or annoyed that they won't do more. 

[Anduin]

In hindsight, with perhaps some filling in the blanks, George Lucas was telling an interesting story. He just went about it in, to me at least, an unappealing way. Slightly better dialogue, slightly better direction. The prequels could have really special, but I still find them lacking.

 

[benteen]

Yeah, the whole slave thing, Anakin wanting to free his mother and Anakin wanting to free the slaves is something that's set up in TPM and most just pushed to the side by AOTC.  Anakin doesn't free slaves and when he goes to free his mother, she isn't even a slave anymore.  She's ALREADY been free.  Classic George, set something up and then either forget about it or change things radically.

In The Clone Wars movie, Anakin is assigned to help out Jabba the Hutt, which he isn't happy about but even there, it's still not dwelled upon. He should be enraged at the idea of the Republic working with slavers like the Hutt and quite frankly, the way the clones are used by The Republic should bother him too.  Another storyline delves more into Anakin's feelings on slavery.  It was a story idea that became a comic that was adapted by the animated series.  Though they left out the best part, where Anakin sides with the Jedi to defy Palpatine about keeping up this slave plant they've been dealing with.  This is one of the few complaints I have about The Clone Wars.

[Zuleikha]

I think the Star Wars saga as a whole suffers from this reluctant to fully acknowledge the logical conclusions of their portrayal and critique of the Jedi. It's a shame because the saga as a whole does a great job complicating the good/bad binary. But it's feels like each individual work always has to pull back at the last minute and reduce the conflicts into a straightforward one side = good and the other side = bad.

Like Clone Wars had this amazing mini-arc complicating the main POV of Republic = good/Separatists = bad with "Heroes on Both Sides". But then a little later (or maybe a season later?), they walked the portrayal back and had one of the main Separatist POV character literally say that the Republic was the right side to be on. (of course, there was the dramatic irony of us as the viewers knowing that he was acting on incomplete information and that the Republic was just as manipulated as the Separatists).

I feel that happened in Revenge of the Sith, too. One of the great things Lucas did was set up a genuinely complex political situation in which the Jedi were doing some pretty darn shady things. But instead of having Anakin turn to Palpatine because of disillusionment with the Jedi, Lucas made it be about fear of Padme dying.

In hindsight, with perhaps some filling in the blanks, George Lucas was telling an interesting story.

Yes, that's why I'm such a Clone Wars fan. It shows how good the underlying ideas for the prequel trilogy are. Unfortunately, Lucas didn't have the writing skills to execute them properly. 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

But instead of having Anakin turn to Palpatine because of disillusionment with the Jedi, Lucas made it be about fear of Padme dying.

That actually would have been cool. And like you said the sort of bones of that plot were  already there what with how the Jedi council always seemed like jerks. Plus Yoda being more of a jerk would explain why he went into hiding instead of fighting with the rebels. Plus after the fact it would have fit more with how Luke thinks the Jedi order is bullshit in The Last Jedi.

On an unrelated note for some reason I was thinking about R2-D2 and how by the time of Rise of Skywalker he must be close to 70 years old or more. And yet even in the new trilogy not only does he still work but he is still compatible with new equipment and systems. Meanwhile in the real world it is getting difficult to find a laptop with a CD drive.

[VCRTracking]

The thing is, whatever the Jedi's faults, 1000 years of galactic peace is still a great accomplishment. I don't blame the Jedi Council for it's "If it ain't broke don't fix it" attitude.

[Ravenya003]

16 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

The Jedi are oddly hesitate to get involved in a lot of things they really should. But for the most part and this is the Council's fault, they don't. It doesn't even occur to them to.

One of my favourite lines from the prequels is Mace Windu's "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." It's so drenched in irony and tragedy, both in illuminating the Jedis' refusal to proactively help people in need (like the slaves on Tatooine), to the fact that they're soon to be thoroughly compromised by their decision to become generals in charge of a Clone Army, which in turn leads to their doom. 

They were the good guys, but they were intrinsically flawed in many ways. This was Palpatine's greatest triumph: using their own doctrines against them, casting them as hypocrites and traitors to their own cause. 

It's why my head-canon is that Rey and Finn go on to establish a new order of Force-users, ones that are neither Jedi nor Sith, but normal people with deep loving relationships that use their powers to help those in need; people who follow the "Living Force" like Qui-Gonn tried to do all those years ago; the man who (if only he was listen to) could have prevented everything from going wrong. 

[Anduin]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The thing is, whatever the Jedi's faults, 1000 years of galactic peace is still a great accomplishment. I don't blame the Jedi Council for it's "If it ain't broke don't fix it" attitude.

There's that. But at the same time, they got a little too stagnant and set in their ways. They didn't deserve to be almost wiped out, but did need a good shake-up. However, outside the Traviss books, I don't think they ever looked into the source of their gift horse. Surprise surprise, it turned out to be trojan.

[Perfect Xero]

6 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I think the Star Wars saga as a whole suffers from this reluctant to fully acknowledge the logical conclusions of their portrayal and critique of the Jedi. It's a shame because the saga as a whole does a great job complicating the good/bad binary. But it's feels like each individual work always has to pull back at the last minute and reduce the conflicts into a straightforward one side = good and the other side = bad.

Like Clone Wars had this amazing mini-arc complicating the main POV of Republic = good/Separatists = bad with "Heroes on Both Sides". But then a little later (or maybe a season later?), they walked the portrayal back and had one of the main Separatist POV character literally say that the Republic was the right side to be on. (of course, there was the dramatic irony of us as the viewers knowing that he was acting on incomplete information and that the Republic was just as manipulated as the Separatists).

I feel that happened in Revenge of the Sith, too. One of the great things Lucas did was set up a genuinely complex political situation in which the Jedi were doing some pretty darn shady things. But instead of having Anakin turn to Palpatine because of disillusionment with the Jedi, Lucas made it be about fear of Padme dying.

I think it was supposed to be both, Anakin's disillusionment with the jedi was more in the form of them being so detached from real life and beholden to fate that their response to visions of someone dying was "oh well, try not to let it bother you" that sent him into palpatine's clutches.

[Kel Varnsen]

23 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The thing is, whatever the Jedi's faults, 1000 years of galactic peace is still a great accomplishment. I don't blame the Jedi Council for it's "If it ain't broke don't fix it" attitude.

Either that is due to them being really good at diplomacy or that is a whole lot of Jedi mind tricks.

[Anduin]

Is there a thread or forum for the Obi-Wan show? I can't find one, and I just stumbled across a possible spoiler I need to discuss.

Spoiler

 

The return of Jar Jar? I really don't think that this is a good idea. While I don't actually hate Jar Jar, I certainly don't like him either. And all those whiny entitled fanboys are still out there, ready to pounce. While the Mandalorian got a pretty good response, this would rile them up. Yes, they're all 20 years older, but have they grown 20 years worth of mature? I'm not sure I have either.

Normally I would ignore them like I do the ST haters, but in this case I make an exception.

From what I've gathered via Bryan Young, Jar Jar's purpose was partly as comic relief, partly as the innocent/accidental enabler. Someone who's nice. Kind. He may not be gifted with brains or coordination, but at least he means well. For him to accidentally be the one to unleash the Empire is a terrible thought. I can see that now, with hindsight. Great idea. But I just don't like him.

I prefer Blackadder over Mr Bean, and Jar Jar is 100% Mr Bean.

 

 

[Danny Franks]

^^ That seems like something no one will look forward to.

Regarding the prequels, I think introducing Anakin as a teenager in the first movie, apprenticed to Obi Wan, would have been a far better move. Get rid of all the prophecy and Christ allegories, just have him be a young apprentice who has been noted to be remarkably powerful in the Force. That, on its own, removes one of the biggest dumb-dumb moves of the Jedi Council - that they allowed him to be trained in the end, despite knowing how dangerous he was.

So he meets Padme on Naboo and, for the first time, begins to chafe against the Jedi Order's strictures. Have him take risks to save her, have them actually forge a friendship that doesn't seem like a young woman amiably tolerating the annoying kid she babysits, and give them a real basis for romance later on.

Then we get a protagonist that we can actually connect to, and we can see the flaws of the Jedi Order through his eyes, and when he starts to be taken in by Palpatine in the second movie, we'd actually have a pre-existing connection to him. The movies did far too little to ever establish that Anakin was a hero, or that his fall was tragic for him as a person. Sure, Clone Wars had that, but it was after the fact and in a medium that only a fraction of those who watched the prequels ever saw.

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 1:34 AM, Ravenya003 said:

It's why my head-canon is that Rey and Finn go on to establish a new order of Force-users, ones that are neither Jedi nor Sith, but normal people with deep loving relationships that use their powers to help those in need; people who follow the "Living Force" like Qui-Gonn tried to do all those years ago; the man who (if only he was listen to) could have prevented everything from going wrong. 

I think that's something the movies should have been more explicit about. Rey is all heart and passion, and there's no way she becomes the monkish Jedi stereotype. She seems like an evolution, and it looked like Yoda and Luke understood that. Hell, Yoda was wiser in The Last Jedi than he was in the entire prequel trilogy.

I wish we'd seen Rey spend more time with her friends and enjoy their company, instead of the creepy, flirt/stalking that Kylo Ren subjected her to, to firmly establish that her version of being a Force user would not revolve around buttoning up emotions.

[andromeda331]

7 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

^^ That seems like something no one will look forward to.

Regarding the prequels, I think introducing Anakin as a teenager in the first movie, apprenticed to Obi Wan, would have been a far better move. Get rid of all the prophecy and Christ allegories, just have him be a young apprentice who has been noted to be remarkably powerful in the Force. That, on its own, removes one of the biggest dumb-dumb moves of the Jedi Council - that they allowed him to be trained in the end, despite knowing how dangerous he was.

So he meets Padme on Naboo and, for the first time, begins to chafe against the Jedi Order's strictures. Have him take risks to save her, have them actually forge a friendship that doesn't seem like a young woman amiably tolerating the annoying kid she babysits, and give them a real basis for romance later on.

Then we get a protagonist that we can actually connect to, and we can see the flaws of the Jedi Order through his eyes, and when he starts to be taken in by Palpatine in the second movie, we'd actually have a pre-existing connection to him. The movies did far too little to ever establish that Anakin was a hero, or that his fall was tragic for him as a person. Sure, Clone Wars had that, but it was after the fact and in a medium that only a fraction of those who watched the prequels ever saw.

That really would have been so much better. The movies were so overloaded due to the first movie starting with Anakin at age nine. We didn't really need that. They could have just referenced it. Really the part about slavery and leaving his mother behind in slaved are really the only two things we would need from the Phantom Menace. Seeing the Jedi through his eyes would make sense.  He wants to and is trying to be a Jedi but there's parts he sees that he doesn't understand.  To plant the seeds of him eventually splitting with the Jedi. But we'd actually see his relationship with Obi Wan and other Jedi. Show his relationship with the Council. If he and Mace end up hating each other by the third movie show us why. Its easier for him to see the flaws because he was the only one who came to the order later and had been a slave. Maybe he keeps talking about or asking when they go back to free the slaves on Tatooine. It would give more time to build Anakin and Padme's relationship and make it look less weird. No matter how great the 9 year old is there's no way to make him and the 14 year old Padme bonding come off natural. Its just weird. It makes sense for them to meet older and through the Jedi or a Jedi assignment. It would give time to develop Anakin and Palpatine relationship too although I'd keep Palpatine drawing Anakin in by coming off as a nice guy, a nice older man who listens to him. Given the harshness of the Jedi Council not to mention their constantly back and forth on Anakin, they made it really easy for Palpatine to simply play the part of a nice older man who listens. Seeing the relationship develop will only make it more shocking and harder for Anakin later when he does learn Palpatine really is a Sith and making it hard for him to choose. Show him mentoring Anakin like Anakin mentions in Attack of the Clones. Show the Jedi being more proactive in things. They were stunned to find out the Sith were back or more correctly never had been gone. Show them trying to look into that. Getting information and trying to figure things out. Trying to get answers. 

Quote

 

I think that's something the movies should have been more explicit about. Rey is all heart and passion, and there's no way she becomes the monkish Jedi stereotype. She seems like an evolution, and it looked like Yoda and Luke understood that. Hell, Yoda was wiser in The Last Jedi than he was in the entire prequel trilogy.

I wish we'd seen Rey spend more time with her friends and enjoy their company, instead of the creepy, flirt/stalking that Kylo Ren subjected her to, to firmly establish that her version of being a Force user would not revolve around buttoning up emotions.

 

It really should have. I'm a little surprised that's not the direction Luke went with his Jedi Order. So much of his training and upbringing was to different from what the Jedi had done before. That was part of the point. They tried to train Anakin the way they always did before and it didn't work. Really they could have tied that into all nine movies. Dooku became disillusioned with the Jedi. Qui Gon remained but he and the Council were always clashing. He believed they should follow the living Force while the Council stuck with the old rules and ways that hadn't been changed in a thousand years. Like Yoda realizes in the ROTS book during his battle with Sidious. The Sith had changed, they spent the thousand years studying everything about the Force and Jedi Order in preparation for the day they got their revenge. While the Jedi (and with Yoda at the helm for most of it due to his age so a large part of it is his fault) spent the same thousand years training to re-fight the last battle. Which of course is stupid. Things change. It seemed clear the Jedi Order needed too. Luke's training was different and his life was different. He was an adult first of all. But he also had friends and a whole group of people. Friends made up of different backgrounds. He was the only Jedi as far as he knew. Obi Wan and Yoda tried hard to convince him not to go confront Vader in the Empire Strikes Back but they ended up being wrong. Vader started his slide from the dark side that wouldn't have happened if Luke hadn't gone. Luke's friends ended up saving his life. Luke's Jedi Order should have continued to embrace new but that's not really what happened. Although it would be nice to know why. I do like Yoda in the Last Jedi. I like that he knew that Luke had the Jedi books but hadn't really read them. It was nice to see Yoda saying the books weren't worth reading and he being the one setting them on fire. It showed how far Yoda has come. 

[Ravenya003]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I think that's something the movies should have been more explicit about. Rey is all heart and passion, and there's no way she becomes the monkish Jedi stereotype. She seems like an evolution, and it looked like Yoda and Luke understood that. Hell, Yoda was wiser in The Last Jedi than he was in the entire prequel trilogy.

I wish we'd seen Rey spend more time with her friends and enjoy their company, instead of the creepy, flirt/stalking that Kylo Ren subjected her to, to firmly establish that her version of being a Force user would not revolve around buttoning up emotions.

Perhaps we'll get lucky and Daisy and John can be coaxed into returning in about five or so years time for a standalone low-stakes spin-off film which has them finally balancing the scales: freeing slaves, fighting crime, finding Force-sensitive children, encouraging people to use the Force without sacrificing their emotions, etc. 

And heck, let them have the love story both characters deserved: one based on friendship, respect and kindness, of the kind the two actors were clearly gunning for across the last four years.