The Star Wars Saga

[Danny Franks]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That really would have been so much better. The movies were so overloaded due to the first movie starting with Anakin at age nine. We didn't really need that. They could have just referenced it. Really the part about slavery and leaving his mother behind in slaved are really the only two things we would need from the Phantom Menace. Seeing the Jedi through his eyes would make sense.  He wants to and is trying to be a Jedi but there's parts he sees that he doesn't understand.  To plant the seeds of him eventually splitting with the Jedi. But we'd actually see his relationship with Obi Wan and other Jedi. Show his relationship with the Council. If he and Mace end up hating each other by the third movie show us why. Its easier for him to see the flaws because he was the only one who came to the order later and had been a slave. Maybe he keeps talking about or asking when they go back to free the slaves on Tatooine. It would give more time to build Anakin and Padme's relationship and make it look less weird. No matter how great the 9 year old is there's no way to make him and the 14 year old Padme bonding come off natural. Its just weird.

He could absolutely still have the sad backstory of being born in slavery, and his mother dying. But that was something we could have been told, through his interactions with Obi Wan and Padme. Instead, Lucas chose to use the 'tell, don't show' strategy when it came to Anakin and Obi Wan's 'wonderful friendship.'

Obi Wan would have been much better served as an amalgamation of himself and Qui Gon - He could have been a little unconventional and rebellious, which rubs off on Anakin despite his best efforts to teach his student the 'proper' Jedi ways. Make the Jedi we care about a little more dashing and human, and then we might understand why Padme could fall for Anakin. Because there is nothing in Attack of the Clones that explains why she somehow comes to love the whiny, petulant and unstable brat that Anakin is.

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It makes sense for them to meet older and through the Jedi or a Jedi assignment. It would give time to develop Anakin and Palpatine relationship too although I'd keep Palpatine drawing Anakin in by coming off as a nice guy, a nice older man who listens to him. Given the harshness of the Jedi Council not to mention their constantly back and forth on Anakin, they made it really easy for Palpatine to simply play the part of a nice older man who listens. Seeing the relationship develop will only make it more shocking and harder for Anakin later when he does learn Palpatine really is a Sith and making it hard for him to choose. Show him mentoring Anakin like Anakin mentions in Attack of the Clones. Show the Jedi being more proactive in things. They were stunned to find out the Sith were back or more correctly never had been gone. Show them trying to look into that. Getting information and trying to figure things out. Trying to get answers. 

Palpatine is incredibly crude and obvious, in his manipulation of Anakin. That's just the bad writing, of course. It was a very workable idea, and still probably one of the stronger elements of the prequels. But instead of having Anakin's motivation be all about saving Padme, it could have been about an initially earnest desire for the Jedi to become better:

"This isn't the way the Order has to be. They're too closeminded and rigid. We're isolated from the cares of ordinary people."

Of course, Anakin would have the ulterior motive of wanting his love for Padme to be acceptable, but he'd still have very valid complaints. And Palpatine's corruption of that would be the core of the tragedy.

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It really should have. I'm a little surprised that's not the direction Luke went with his Jedi Order. So much of his training and upbringing was to different from what the Jedi had done before. That was part of the point. They tried to train Anakin the way they always did before and it didn't work. Really they could have tied that into all nine movies. Dooku became disillusioned with the Jedi. Qui Gon remained but he and the Council were always clashing. He believed they should follow the living Force while the Council stuck with the old rules and ways that hadn't been changed in a thousand years. Like Yoda realizes in the ROTS book during his battle with Sidious. The Sith had changed, they spent the thousand years studying everything about the Force and Jedi Order in preparation for the day they got their revenge. While the Jedi (and with Yoda at the helm for most of it due to his age so a large part of it is his fault) spent the same thousand years training to re-fight the last battle. Which of course is stupid. Things change. It seemed clear the Jedi Order needed too. Luke's training was different and his life was different. He was an adult first of all. But he also had friends and a whole group of people. Friends made up of different backgrounds. He was the only Jedi as far as he knew. Obi Wan and Yoda tried hard to convince him not to go confront Vader in the Empire Strikes Back but they ended up being wrong. Vader started his slide from the dark side that wouldn't have happened if Luke hadn't gone. Luke's friends ended up saving his life. Luke's Jedi Order should have continued to embrace new but that's not really what happened. Although it would be nice to know why. I do like Yoda in the Last Jedi. I like that he knew that Luke had the Jedi books but hadn't really read them. It was nice to see Yoda saying the books weren't worth reading and he being the one setting them on fire. It showed how far Yoda has come. 

Luke was more emotionally controlled in Return of the Jedi, to show his growth as a Jedi Knight. There was never the suggestion that he was now a monk or anything like that, but he was definitely more... serene. Until his anger overcame him, of course.

I guess that performance went on to influence a lot of the ideas about how Jedi should be, which then defined the prequels. I don't know that Luke necessarily tried to train his students in the same way we saw in the prequels - from what we see of Ben Solo, he's not a monotone, repressed Padawan. It would have been nice to see more of that too, because I think Luke probably had a more relaxed training style, which is something else he might blame himself for.

3 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

Perhaps we'll get lucky and Daisy and John can be coaxed into returning in about five or so years time for a standalone low-stakes spin-off film which has them finally balancing the scales: freeing slaves, fighting crime, finding Force-sensitive children, encouraging people to use the Force without sacrificing their emotions, etc. 

And heck, let them have the love story both characters deserved: one based on friendship, respect and kindness, of the kind the two actors were clearly gunning for across the last four years. 

I'd love that. Rey was the best thing about these movies, by a mile (I liked Finn and Poe too, but they just felt much less consequential), and it would be a shame to say goodbye to her character.

Rey isn't a natural leader of a new Jedi, or post-Jedi Order, but she's absolutely a 'lead by example' sort who would want to travel around, righting wrongs and making the galaxy a better place.

[ursula]

41 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Instead, Lucas chose to use the 'tell, don't show' strategy when it came to Anakin and Obi Wan's 'wonderful friendship.'

Obi Wan would have been much better served as an amalgamation of himself and Qui Gon - He could have been a little unconventional and rebellious, which rubs off on Anakin despite his best efforts to teach his student the 'proper' Jedi ways.

Can’t agree with this. Having Obi Wan be Anakin's second choice so to speak, the young over-his-head Master who adopts an older, maladjusted Anakin with no small resentment was one of the most ingenuous revelations of the PT. Like someone said earlier, half of the conflict in their relationship was that Obi Wan saw Anakin as his pseudo brother, and Anakin saw him as a father. The writing didn’t do it justice, like everything in the PT, but the idea was awesome. 

Same with Anakin as a kid. Having the Jedi reject 9 year old slave boy to his face as too old and damaged was also one of the more brilliant aspects of the PT. The problem again was execution.

[scarynikki12]

Something else they could have done in the prequels to set up Anakin’s relationship with Palpatine is to have Palpatine free the slaves on the outer rim planets. It’s the type of maneuver that a long term thinker like Palpatine would do. He personally doesn’t care about slaves and is certainly in favor slavery but he wants Anakin and his powers on his side when he makes his move so he demonstrates his leadership ability by ending slavery on planets that aren’t even in the Republic and becomes his hero. It also shows up the Jedi without being outwardly about showing them up. 

[raven]

8 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

Perhaps we'll get lucky and Daisy and John can be coaxed into returning in about five or so years time for a standalone low-stakes spin-off film which has them finally balancing the scales: freeing slaves, fighting crime, finding Force-sensitive children, encouraging people to use the Force without sacrificing their emotions, etc. 

And heck, let them have the love story both characters deserved: one based on friendship, respect and kindness, of the kind the two actors were clearly gunning for across the last four years. 

I would be on board for this.  Though I enjoyed the last trilogy to varying degrees, something was always missing for me because the Luke/Leia/Han story ended so long ago (I haven't read any of the books or watched anything besides the movies).   By the time we got around to seeing the three of them again, let's face it, neither Mark nor Carrie (nor Harrison, to a lesser degree) seemed able to carry off the physicality of the younger actors - understandably, 30+ years and all that.   It isn't a criticism of them as people but rather my preference would have been to see the characters having adventures after RoTJ and of course now since Carrie has passed we will not even be able to see the three of them together again. 

So I would just keep the original trilogy in a mental box for myself personally; since Lucas had to tinker with them which made them worse, and look at this most recent trilogy as an opportunity with Rey/Finn/Poe, all of whom I like.   I would like to see them find their own way without Luke and no more Leia CGI, please.   Chewie can hang around and maybe force ghost Yoda, since I liked him being snarky in TLJ.

[Ravenya003]

7 hours ago, ursula said:

Having Obi Wan be Anakin's second choice so to speak, the young over-his-head Master who adopts an older, maladjusted Anakin with no small resentment was one of the most ingenuous revelations of the PT. Like someone said earlier, half of the conflict in their relationship was that Obi Wan saw Anakin as his pseudo brother, and Anakin saw him as a father. The writing didn’t do it justice, like everything in the PT, but the idea was awesome. 

Indeed. Also the subtle implication that Obi Wan ever-so-slightly resented Anakin for taking up all of Qui-Gonn's attention before his death. There's a beautiful moment from Ewan McGregor when Qui-Gonn announces to the council that he wants to drop Obi Wan as his apprentice and take on Anakin instead: a look of pure hurt betrayal.

[benteen]

The Clone Wars series was proof that with the right team around him (and ESPECIALLY with Dave Filoni as his right hand) Lucas could still deliver.  

I will say one of my great disappointments with the sequel trilogy is never getting to see the Jedi Order that Luke created after Return of the Jedi.  That was what I wanted to see the most.  I like the Rey character but I didn't want to see her repeat Luke's "last of the Jedi" storyline.  Criticizing Disney and JJ Abrams for that is very, very fair.

The new post-ROTJ EU seems to indicate that Luke spent years searching for Jedi artifacts before starting his Jedi Order.  I have to admit I find the idea of Luke's sole focus of finding what was left of the Jed i (if that was the case) to be not only disappointing but a dereliction of duty.  I much prefer to think that while Luke was looking for Jedi lore, he would become involved in helping those in need, fixing wrong that had been committed and doing good.  Kind of like Caine for Kung Fu.  Basically, Luke the Jedi helping people who needed help, not being restricted by the New Republic and previously established Jedi dogma.  He's be a true Jedi and servant of the people, not a servant of the Republic.

I don't see Luke becoming a Jedi as rigid as the Old Republic Jedi were.  Not only was he trained differently (much later in life with only a minimum of actual training) but he learned in ROTJ that rejecting the Jedi view of his father was what had actual led to his great victory, getting his father to turn back from the dark side and bringing balance to the Force.  Luke would take the best lessons taught to him by Obi-Wan and Yoda and combine them with the lessons he had learned and been successful with.  Not inexplicably cling to the failed ways of the past.

We will probably need see in onscreen but Rey will now get the storyline that Luke should have gotten.

Edited January 13, 2020 by benteen

[VCRTracking]

On 1/13/2020 at 7:04 AM, benteen said:

The Clone Wars series was proof that with the right team around him (and ESPECIALLY with Dave Filoni as his right hand) Lucas could still deliver.  

I will say one of my great disappointments with the sequel trilogy is never getting to see the Jedi Order that Luke created after Return of the Jedi.  That was what I wanted to see the most.  I like the Rey character but I didn't want to see her repeat Luke's "last of the Jedi" storyline.  Criticizing Disney and JJ Abrams for that is very, very fair.

The new post-ROTJ EU seems to indicate that Luke spent years searching for Jedi artifacts before starting his Jedi Order.  I have to admit I find the idea of Luke's sole focus of finding what was left of the Jed i (if that was the case) to be not only disappointing but a dereliction of duty.  I much prefer to think that while Luke was looking for Jedi lore, he would become involved in helping those in need, fixing wrong that had been committed and doing good.  Kind of like Caine for Kung Fu.  Basically, Luke the Jedi helping people who needed help, not being restricted by the New Republic and previously established Jedi dogma.  He's be a true Jedi and servant of the people, not a servant of the Republic.

I don't see Luke becoming a Jedi as rigid as the Old Republic Jedi were.  Not only was he trained differently (much later in life with only a minimum of actual training) but he learned in ROTJ that rejecting the Jedi view of his father was what had actual led to his great victory, getting his father to turn back from the dark side and bringing balance to the Force.  Luke would take the best lessons taught to him by Obi-Wan and Yoda and combine them with the lessons he had learned and been successful with.  Not inexplicably cling to the failed ways of the past.

We will probably need see in onscreen but Rey will now get the storyline that Luke should have gotten.

TBH I always pictured Luke training a new Jedi Order of about a dozen young students to be like a combination of:

but with some aliens.

Edited January 15, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Anduin]

Great. Further movies are cancelled. Why? Because people whined too hard.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Anduin

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Anduin said:

Great. Further movies are cancelled. Why? Because people whined too hard.

That stinks.

[VCRTracking]

6 hours ago, Anduin said:

Great. Further movies are cancelled. Why? Because people whined too hard

I think the solution is put out original novels set in the Star Wars universe and if one is successful with the majority of the fanbase, adapt it into a movie. A movie is too big to take risks with the unknown whereas TV you can be more fearless.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I think the solution is put out original novels set in the Star Wars universe and if one is successful with the majority of the fanbase, adapt it into a movie. A movie is too big to take risks with the unknown whereas TV you can be more fearless.

The comics, books, games, shows, etc are nice, but I grew up with movies. I want more movies, not those other things.

[VCRTracking]

7 hours ago, Anduin said:

The comics, books, games, shows, etc are nice, but I grew up with movies. I want more movies, not those other things.

I'm saying they put out a new book, it does really well, Disney goes "Oh they like this. We can make it into a movie."  Fans will protest they want something original, but they don't. Not when it comes to the live action movies.

[starri]

32 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I'm saying they put out a new book, it does really well, Disney goes "Oh they like this. We can make it into a movie."  Fans will protest they want something original, but they don't. Not when it comes to the live action movies.

I would argue they already have that in Knights of the Old Republic.  It's a GREAT story, but they've only tentatively approached the well.

[benteen]

Future movies are canceled because Lucasfilm is an absolute train wreck behind the scenes.  Disney and Kathleen Kennedy have done a terrible job of managing this franchise.

I still think Disney itself doesn't understand how Star Wars could have possibly become the success it is without them.

[Anduin]

7 hours ago, benteen said:

Future movies are canceled because Lucasfilm is an absolute train wreck behind the scenes.  Disney and Kathleen Kennedy have done a terrible job of managing this franchise.

I still think Disney itself doesn't understand how Star Wars could have possibly become the success it is without them.

You've already won. Star Wars is cancelled. There's no need to put the boot in.

[VCRTracking]

On 2/9/2020 at 9:08 AM, starri said:

I would argue they already have that in Knights of the Old Republic.  It's a GREAT story, but they've only tentatively approached the well.

I would love that. Or any movie set in the past where the Jedi were more warriors and not peacekeeping negotiators. hadn't become As impressive as the lightsaber combat was in the prequels, they were mostly fighting droids. A big battle between Jedi against living opponents would have a visceral feeling the movies really haven't had before.

[Zuleikha]

Disney and Kathleen Kennedy have done a terrible job of managing this franchise.

Have they? Solo was a flop, but hasn't everything else been commercially successful? (and I thought Solo ended up being a perfectly fine popcorn movie... utterly unnecessary but in some ways, one of the more interesting Star Wars movies)

I mean, I'll never understand how the sequel trilogy was green-lit without an overall outline and I do think that was an unforgiveable decision. But I guess I will also never understand how the movie business works if one flop and two mixed audience response/commercially lucrative movies ends up killing a movie franchise.

[VCRTracking]

12 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

 

 

Have they? Solo was a flop, but hasn't everything else been commercially successful? (and I thought Solo ended up being a perfectly fine popcorn movie... utterly unnecessary but in some ways, one of the more interesting Star Wars movies)

I mean, I'll never understand how the sequel trilogy was green-lit without an overall outline and I do think that was an unforgiveable decision. But I guess I will also never understand how the movie business works if one flop and two mixed audience response/commercially lucrative movies ends up killing a movie franchise.

They did have an outline, They had Lucas' and they chose to throw that away. The part they did use, where a disillusioned Luke was in exile the basis for The Last Jedi, so....

I like Solo too. It's a perfectly entertaining movie like you catch on cable on the weekend afternoon while changing channels and enjoy. Like most Ron Howard movies, actually. I think the problem was it came so soon after the last one. The lesson to be learned by Disney is they're not like Marvel movies.

[Anduin]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

They did have an outline, They had Lucas' and they chose to throw that away. The part they did use, where a disillusioned Luke was in exile the basis for The Last Jedi, so....

I like Solo too. It's a perfectly entertaining movie like you catch on cable on the weekend afternoon while changing channels and enjoy. Like most Ron Howard movies, actually. I think the problem was it came so soon after the last one. The lesson to be learned by Disney is they're not like Marvel movies.

I actually disagree. To me, Solo was everything I hate in a movie. Let's explain what doesn't need explanation. Then shoehorn an annoying cameo at the end. Combine that with a pair of actors who can't act, I hated the whole thing.

If we got three SW movies a year, I would happily go see all of them. To me the problem is that people put SW on a pedestal, then blame it for not living up to their inflated expectations. Sometimes a movie is just a piece of entertainment. It won't change the world. It isn't designed to do so. We should try to relax about these things.

[Zuleikha]

They did have an outline, They had Lucas' and they chose to throw that away.

While I would love for Lucas to indie publish novelizations of his Whills, I do not blame Kennedy for that choice!

I meant an outline that they were using. Once they threw Lucas' away (which again, I do not blame them!), they should have replaced it.

(But I will also always think Rian Johnson made some mindbogglingly bad choices about The Last Jedi. I rewatched it recently to see if Rise of Starwalker would make me appreciate it more, and nope. I thought it was much worse than I remembered.)

[benteen]

15 hours ago, Anduin said:

You've already won. Star Wars is cancelled. There's no need to put the boot in.

I haven't won anything.  I hate to see Star Wars in the state it's in.  Things are an absolute mess behind-the-scenes at Lucasfilm.  Disney and Kathleen Kennedy have put future films in limbo because of not having an overall plan for the sequel trilogy (other than pretty much remaking ANH with TFA), terrible hires (not just the directors they fired but JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson) and trying to turn Star Wars in the Marvel Cinematic Universe with a movie a year when that has never been the formula for them.  

Edited February 11, 2020 by benteen

[Anduin]

3 minutes ago, benteen said:

I haven't won anything.  I hate to see Star Wars in the state it's in.  Things are an absolute mess behind-the-scenes at Lucasfilm.  Disney and Kathleen Kennedy have put future films in limbo because of not having an overall plan for the sequel trilogy (other than pretty much remaking ANH with TFA), terrible hires (not just the directors they fired but JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson) and trying to turn Star Wars in the Marvel Cinematic Universe when that has never been the formula for them.  

I disagree with nearly everything you said. The problem lies more with the 'fans' than the movies. Here's the world on a stick. What? The stick is too brown? It must be the worst thing ever. Some of us can ignore the stick and focus on the world.

[benteen]

The sequel trilogy was a giant missed opportunity, made that way by the terrible decisions by everyone involved at Disney Lucasfilm.  There is certainly a problem with a segment of Star Wars fandom but that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem (or problems) with the movies themselves.    Lucasfilm is an absolute mess behind-the-scenes and Disney only has themselves to blame for that.

Edited February 11, 2020 by benteen

[ursula]

11 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

 

 

While I would love for Lucas to indie publish novelizations of his Whills, I do not blame Kennedy for that choice!

I meant an outline that they were using. Once they threw Lucas' away (which again, I do not blame them!), they should have replaced it.

(But I will also always think Rian Johnson made some mindbogglingly bad choices about The Last Jedi. I rewatched it recently to see if Rise of Starwalker would make me appreciate it more, and nope. I thought it was much worse than I remembered.)

I disagree. Lucas had great ideas for the movies he made. His execution - directing and script writing - was bad and his best movies are the ones he let others take these roles. But in terms of storytelling, he is it. Everything in the Disney movies is either derivative or a deliberate mockery of the established lore.

At the very least, Lucas’s stories would have been coming from the heart, from someone who loved Stat Wars. Not someone who either condescended to it or had some warped childhood wish fulfillment relationship with it.

Edited February 11, 2020 by ursula

[benteen]

The Clone Wars was proof that when George has the right people around him who actually have real input (ie Dave Filoni) he can still deliver.  

[Zuleikha]

Lucas had great ideas for the movies he made. His execution - directing and script writing - was bad and his best movies are the ones he let others take these roles.

While I agree with those sentences, we will have to agree to disagree about the viability of a movie trilogy that explored the Whills as microbiotic Force beings who drive humans like cars around the galaxy. I genuinely would like to read a novelization of Lucas's idea, though. That wasn't sarcasm. But I don't think it would be a satisfying movie.

[ursula]

4 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

While I agree with those sentences, we will have to agree to disagree about the viability of a movie trilogy that explored the Whills as microbiotic Force beings who drive humans like cars around the galaxy.

That's like taking a paragraph of a book and judging the entire series. All we know about Lucas's treatment -  "Boo! It was about midichlorians again!..." and "you didn't like Jake Skywalker? Well that's what George wanted so you can't complain!" - are (by sheer coincidence I'm sure) stuff that furthers Disney's agenda. So until/unless the treatment is ever released in full, I'll base my opinion on the stories we actually got from Lucas. Not the bits and pieces that Disney released to vindicate their choices.

Edited February 12, 2020 by ursula

[Danny Franks]

Disney made a miscalculation about the best way to make money from Star Wars - They thought it could be a constant source of cash, movie after movie with endless merchandising opportunities.

But they didn't factor in the inherent fanboy obsessiveness of large, vocal elements of the Star Wars fandom. Nothing is right, because it doesn't match the fantasy storytelling of the fans, or it contradicts some mediocre novel written fifteen years ago, and so it must be torn down and stamped on in righteous, online fury.

The trick is to restrict the flow of new Star Wars - one movie every few years,  where the anticipation and excitement outstrips the disappointment those certain fans are guaranteed to feel, after the movie comes out.

I imagine Disney have figured this out now, and will just leave Star Wars on the backburner for a while. But they still made more money out of the Star Wars deal than anyone could dream of, and will continue to while people buy toys, videogames, pay for Disney+ and visit the Star Wars bit of Disney World.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Danny Franks

[Perfect Xero]

13 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Disney made a miscalculation about the best way to make money from Star Wars - They thought it could be a constant source of cash, movie after movie with endless merchandising opportunities.

But they didn't factor in the inherent fanboy obsessiveness of large, vocal elements of the Star Wars fandom. Nothing is right, because it doesn't match the fantasy storytelling of the fans, or it contradicts some mediocre novel written fifteen years ago, and so it must be torn down and stamped on in righteous, online fury.

The trick is to restrict the flow of new Star Wars - one movie every few years,  where the anticipation and excitement outstrips the disappointment those certain fans are guaranteed to feel, after the movie comes out.

I disagree, I think that Star Wars absolutely could have supported a steady once a year release schedule. I think that they followed up TFA with Rogue One showed that potential was there. IMO there's no reason they shouldn't have owned the Christmas movie season at least every year for the next decade after TFA basically staked the claim.

The people who don't like the NT because it contradicts the old EU is a relatively small group. Most Star Wars fans have never cracked open a Star Wars novel or comic.

The problem IMO was that they simply made the wrong creative choices and lost the audience's trust. The Last Jedi was a ... divisive film. It changed the tone of the discourse around star wars because it alienated a lot more of the fanbase than simply the people who didn't like changes from the EU. IMO it derailed a lot of the excitement for the franchise that had been very strong up to that point.

Why should I be excited to see Solo 5 months after I watched Luke fucking Skywalker stand over Han's son, weapon drawn and armed, contemplating murdering him in his sleep? What's the point? Why should I trust them to do right by Han, Chewie, and Lando?

They're still clearly going to make a ton of money off of Star Wars, but I think they could be making even more.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The problem IMO was that they simply made the wrong creative choices and lost the audience's trust. The Last Jedi was a ... divisive film. It changed the tone of the discourse around star wars because it alienated a lot more of the fanbase than simply the people who didn't like changes from the EU. IMO it derailed a lot of the excitement for the franchise that had been very strong up to that point.

Why should I be excited to see Solo 5 months after I watched Luke fucking Skywalker stand over Han's son, weapon drawn and armed, contemplating murdering him in his sleep? What's the point? Why should I trust them to do right by Han, Chewie, and Lando?

And some people were awfully loud complainers. You'd think they wanted Star Wars to fail.

You know, in real life, people make mistakes. Furthermore, if heroes are flawless, they're boring. They need to fail, learn, overcome.

[Zuleikha]

No one wanted Star Wars to fail. This is the type of discourse that gets ridiculous.

You can't debate or snark people into liking a characterization that they didn't like.  IMHO, part of why TLJ ended up being so divisive was that so many pop culture blog sites refused to move on beyond the lazy and frankly insulting assertion that everyone who didn't like TLJ was a whiny racist, sexist manbaby. 

I think Solo was hurt by a variety of factors, but I know personally that disliking TLJ was directly related to why I didn't see Solo in theaters. TLJ was just so bad (and not because of Luke for me... that was the one plot I liked) that it killed my enthusiasm for a bit.

[Anduin]

3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

No one wanted Star Wars to fail. This is the type of discourse that gets ridiculous.

You can't debate or snark people into liking a characterization that they didn't like.  IMHO, part of why TLJ ended up being so divisive was that so many pop culture blog sites refused to move on beyond the lazy and frankly insulting assertion that everyone who didn't like TLJ was a whiny racist, sexist manbaby.

Considering the sheer outpouring of hatred I've seen over the last few years, I strongly disagree. There was a youtuber I used to watch, who talked about completely different stuff. Then he made a video called Star Wars is dead and TLJ killed it. Whole channels popped up ripping into TLJ and Rian Johnson. How about the people who hate-follow Johnson on twitter and still attack him? You think Disney HQ wasn't paying attention?

If someone picked up a set of binoculars, peered through, and complained that everything looked small, you'd suggest they looked through the other end. Only they don't do that, they just keep complaining. They're prepared to throw down the binoculars and smash them. Can you see how frustrating that would be? I'm trying to help people look through the correct end.

[VCRTracking]

I think the more positive response to Rogue One and The Mandalorian shows the best way to go is to play around with the iconography of the Original Trilogy but not the characters themselves. Like the sandcrawler sequence in ep 2 of The Mandalorian wasn't just a thrilling action sequence because of it's expert staging, but also just the sight of a guy in Boba Fett armor fighting Jawas on a moving sandcrawler!  Younger fans liked The Force Awakens for the new characters but old ones liked seeing the Millennium Falcon flying through crashed Star Destroyers!

[Perfect Xero]

9 hours ago, Anduin said:

And some people were awfully loud complainers. You'd think they wanted Star Wars to fail.

You know, in real life, people make mistakes. Furthermore, if heroes are flawless, they're boring. They need to fail, learn, overcome.

Because who among us never stood over our sleeping nephew, deadly weapon armed and in hand, contemplating murdering him before he wakes up? How would I ever relate to Luke if he hadn't?

Thinking that seriously considering the murder of a student/family member who is being manipulated by an evil force is far too big of a "flaw", too out of character, and can't be dismissed as a simple "mistake" is a far cry from expecting the character to be flawless.

The funny thing to me is that I saw as much hate/hope for failure for Rise of Skywalker before its release (and shortly after) coming from The Last Jedi/Rian fans as I did from the people who had hated the entire Disney Trilogy.

[Anduin]

17 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Because who among us never stood over our sleeping nephew, deadly weapon armed and in hand, contemplating murdering him before he wakes up? How would I ever relate to Luke if he hadn't?

Thinking that seriously considering the murder of a student/family member who is being manipulated by an evil force is far too big of a "flaw", too out of character, and can't be dismissed as a simple "mistake" is a far cry from expecting the character to be flawless.

It's 100% in line with the rest of Star Wars. Political disputes are decided by multi-million-strong armies and planet-killing machines. Ships are kilometres-long and can cross the galaxy within days. A man can go from essentially flawed but good to child-murdering in ten minutes. You're worried about someone turning to the dark side? Best to kill them first. Everything is enlarged to a ridiculous degree.

Afterwards, Luke acted as he always has. He flounced off to sulk, just like in ANH and ESB. Yeah, it was on a planet in the far reaches of the galaxy. But everything has to be exaggerated even further these days.

[ICantDoThatDave]

12 hours ago, Anduin said:

You know, in real life, people make mistakes. Furthermore, if heroes are flawless, they're boring. They need to fail, learn, overcome.

Paging Rey!  Rey, please come to the front. Oh, hey, welcome, please read this.  /\

[Perfect Xero]

8 minutes ago, Anduin said:

It's 100% in line with the rest of Star Wars. Political disputes are decided by multi-million-strong armies and planet-killing machines. Ships are kilometres-long and can cross the galaxy within days. A man can go from essentially flawed but good to child-murdering in ten minutes. You're worried about someone turning to the dark side? Best to kill them first. Everything is enlarged to a ridiculous degree.

Afterwards, Luke acted as he always has. He flounced off to sulk, just like in ANH and ESB. Yeah, it was on a planet in the far reaches of the galaxy. But everything has to be exaggerated even further these days.

 

The films repeatedly show that killing someone because they're "dangerous" is wrong and doing so is a sign of how far the Jedi have lost their way. Until RotJ when Luke tosses aside his saber and returns the Jedi to their right path. It's the culmination of the entire Jedi arc the plays out over 6 films and TLJ undoes it in a flashback to make Kylo Ren a love interest for Rey.

[ICantDoThatDave]

1 minute ago, Anduin said:

Are you saying that Rey is flawless? She doesn't screw up? I can point to a few times when she does.

Rather than saying you can, it'd save time if you had just done it.

[Anduin]

50 minutes ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

Rather than saying you can, it'd save time if you had just done it.

Piloting skills. You see the way she takes the Falcon through Jakku? It's not great. End of the movie, Ahch-To. She hits the water with the Falcon. Earlier, she's not a great shot. She can't resist Ren's Force powers. It takes two or three goes before she properly mind-tricks the guard. In the Starkiller forest, Ren knocks her back easily.

TLJ. She drops that rock on the caretaker cart. She doesn't convince Luke to return to action, or Ren to come around to the light. She doesn't convince Ren in TROS either.

Right there, ten examples of her not succeeding from three movies. There are probably more that have slipped my mind.

[VCRTracking]

The problem with Rey isn't that she's too perfect, it's that she doesn't have a goal for herself in the first movie. She just wants to stay on Jakku and wait for her family.

[ICantDoThatDave]

"Piloting skills. You see the way she takes the Falcon through Jakku? It's not great."

So you consider it a failing that she isn't awesome right away at flying the Millenium Falcon, when she's never flown a starship before?.  But OK, I'll grant it took her literally minutes to become an awesome pilot & outmaneuver trained opposition.

"Earlier, she's not a great shot."

She missed literally one time!  And then bullseyed every shot afterwards.  Come on, be reasonable.

"She can't resist Ren's Force powers. It takes two or three goes before she properly mind-tricks the guard. In the Starkiller forest, Ren knocks her back easily."

I'm pretty sure she does resist Ren's Force powers & even "absorbs" them & instantly becomes a Master Jedi.  Hardly a failure.  With regards to the guard, this is supposed to be times she fails or screws up, not times it took a couple tries to succeed at Jedi Mind Tricks.  Starkiller forest - who won that fight?

"She drops that rock on the caretaker cart."

Are we also counting that time she stubbed her toe or burnt her toast?

"She doesn't convince Luke to return to action, or Ren to come around to the light. She doesn't convince Ren in TROS either"

I guess those are fair, but those were stupid storylines to begin with.  Luke Skywalker shouldn't need convincing & Kylo Ren is a mass murdering daddy-killing emo fascist, so... good on her for failing I guess?

The point is Rey never really has to struggle for anything.  She might have to scrunch her face up & try more than once, but she never really faces adversity.  No one's ever better than her.  She never learns from anyone.  She doesn't even have to rely on anyone to do something she can't.  She has all the skills.  She doesn't really even have a goal or an arc.  She's just, well, you said it yourself: "if heroes are flawless, they're boring. They need to fail, learn, overcome."

Edited February 15, 2020 by ICantDoThatDave

[Zuleikha]

it's that she doesn't have a goal for herself in the first movie.

I don't think that's true in a way that's a problem. She may not have a goal for herself per se, but she has active wants in a way that creates conflict for her. She wants to be reunited with her parents--which she believes requires staying on Jakku--and she also wants to escape the scavenger lifestyle and pilot in space*. 

Then once she resolves that, she has another set of tension between her fear of Anakin's lightsaber and her desire to help, which turns into fear of the lightsaber and need to escape Kylo Ren.

* this conflict is also why TLJ's specific story for Rey's parentage doesn't work, but I'll save you all hearing me rant about that again 🙂

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

 

I don't think that's true in a way that's a problem. She may not have a goal for herself per se, but she has active wants in a way that creates conflict for her. She wants to be reunited with her parents--which she believes requires staying on Jakku--and she also wants to escape the scavenger lifestyle and pilot in space*. 

Then once she resolves that, she has another set of tension between her fear of Anakin's lightsaber and her desire to help, which turns into fear of the lightsaber and need to escape Kylo Ren.

* this conflict is also why TLJ's specific story for Rey's parentage doesn't work, but I'll save you all hearing me rant about that again 🙂

If she was the protagonist of only one movie she didn't need a goal other than immediate ones like escape and survival. For 3 movies though she needed a goal she had to strive over that period to attain.

[absnow54]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

If she was the protagonist of only one movie she didn't need a goal other than immediate ones like escape and survival. For 3 movies though she needed a goal she had to strive over that period to attain.

Aside from reuniting with her parents, her goals are turning Ren back to the light... for some reason. Getting Luke to come out of exile... for some reason. And to speak with all the voices of the Jedi past... for some reason. I get that they were trying to give her a found family, but the character felt very isolated from everyone else, especially in TLJ. Luke was very much isolated in Empire as well, but there were still scenes on Hoth that showed how close the team had become. Rey’s best developed relationships were with Finn and Han in the first movie, but they decided that she was all about the Skywalker legacy, and that connection just felt hollow to me. 

[Athena]

Be polite. You can express your opinion without having to be rude to your fellow posters. Any "patronization" or "condescension" should be reported and not engaged. Posts have been removed. 

[Zuleikha]

For 3 movies though she needed a goal she had to strive over that period to attain.

I agree and disagree with this. I agree that we can look back at the trilogy as a whole and say there was a problem with Rey's character motivation. However, I don't think that started in TFA.

I also think that's an issue with how Finn was developed over the course of the trilogy. 

[ICantDoThatDave]

On 2/15/2020 at 1:48 PM, Zuleikha said:

 

I agree and disagree with this. I agree that we can look back at the trilogy as a whole and say there was a problem with Rey's character motivation. However, I don't think that started in TFA.

That's a good point but if you don't think it started in TFA, where do you think it started?  As you note, Finn had the same problem, storywise.  Pretty much all the new characters, good & bad, had that same issue.

If you stopped about the halfway point of TFA & described all the main characters to someone who hadn't seen the movie, would your description of who they were change in any significant way at the end of the 3rd movie?

[VCRTracking]

We all thought when TFA ended that Luke was going to train Rey in the next movie but she never says "I want to be a Jedi". We only assumed that was where the story was going to go because of the previous movies. That Luke would train her the way Yoda did on Dagobah, But the entire Resistance didn't see her off just so she could train. She was sent to bring Luke back. The Resistance hopes were entirely on  finding Luke so he could help fight against the First Order.

Rey's big moment was when Luke/Anakin's lightsaber flies into her hand instead of Kylo's. It's her "pulling Excalibur out of the stone" and the audience cheers. But then the movie ends with her holding Excalibur out to Luke like "Here, this belongs to you."  Mixed message there.

[Zuleikha]

That's a good point but if you don't think it started in TFA, where do you think it started?  As you note, Finn had the same problem, storywise.  Pretty much all the new characters, good & bad, had that same issue.

Now I am going to sound like a broken record, but it was TLJ. TFA progressed the characters so that by the end Finn and Rey had decided to stop hiding/running and embrace their role as part of the direct fight against the First Order. The characters are in a perfectly logical place for the protagonists at the end of the first move in a trilogy.

But then TLJ doesn't grow them from there. It regresses them, or maybe takes them sideways Johnson has Rey trying to bring Luke back so that she doesn't have to be the Force user... but also, she's trying to get him to train her to use the Force... and then there's this weird, icky Reylo element. So her character motivation, her challenges, and her goals all became really muddy.

The storyline was almost there--there should have been tension out of Rey NEEDING the reluctant, bitter Luke to train her so that she's able to fight a full-strength Kylo. But IMHO, Johnson never gave us the feeling that Rey actually needed or even cared about Luke teaching her. Heck, he doesn't even bother to tell us why she stole the Jedi manuals. Was it because she'd given up on Luke's help and planned to use them to teach herself? Was it because she felt they belonged with her as the next Jedi? Was it because she thought Leia could get something useful out of them? Was it guidance from the Force calling her to do it in a manner similar to when she went to the cave or to Anakin's lightsaber?

Finn's storyline in TLJ is even worse. Johnson didn't seem to have any idea what to do with him or who he is. Finn doesn't question Poe at all about Holdo, even though what Poe is telling him and Rose to do is a huge thing. Finn gets lectured about the evils of the First Order from Rose, as though we weren't introduced to Finn with him breaking his brainwashing after having to partake in a massacring a village! Finn's big moment is defeating Phasma and declaring himself to be Rebel Scum... but he already defeated Phasma at the end of TFA and she's been off screen the whole time and Finn has had no direct conflict with the Stormtroopers and Finn is actually partaking in a mutiny against Resistance leadership (that is going to result in the devastation of the remaining Resistance) and Phasma's defeat is going to be absolutely meaningless for the First Order vs. Resistance storyline anyway.

TFA left Finn in an interesting place as an ex-Stormtrooper who would be looking to find his place with the enemy side. We should have seen him struggle with the differing culture, political system, assumed beliefs. That, in turn, would have let him serve as a POV character to flesh out that political worldbuilding, which was the weakest part of TFA. Instead, we got Canto Bight.

[Anduin]

So every character beat needs to be announced out loud? We can't just judge people by their actions? For that matter, are they only allowed one motivation, or can they have multiple irons in the fire?

Rey wants to learn from Luke while he does his thing with the Resistance. When neither are forthcoming, she takes the books to learn for herself, maybe she can do what's needed. As for Reylo, she may be tempted, but she still rejects it.

Finn's arc is about seeing the wider galaxy. He starts only really knowing Rey and Poe. By the end, he's seen what the Resistance is fighting for. He cares.

Poe's arc is similar. He certainly cares, but he learns to see the bigger picture.