S02.E20: Ghost Detainee

[CooperTV]

After Elizabeth delivers her first speech to the United Nations General Assembly formally condemning the terrorist group Hizb-al Shahid, she discusses forming a coalition against them with the Russian Foreign Minister. However, the talks create a conflict of interest between Elizabeth and Henry, who is searching for a way to save Dmitri’s ill sister, Talia Petrov, from the Russian government.

 

[roomtorome]

Gad - it is now hubby henry show - what the hell did they do to this show?  Damn.  Hearing Henry whine throughout the whole episode as if he just beamed in from another planet, having zero idea how the "system" works here - ugh.  

 

I get they must be pushing for them to be at odds or separated by the end of this season for some idiotic contrived tv drama crap but I feel the writing here is pretty insulting to the audience.

 

And, really, hubby, if you can't cope with the parameters and rules of dealing with what you are doing, quit and go back to teaching - Please, go away - anywhere.

[secnarf]

I have to say, those scenes with Buttercup had me tearing up.

Other than that, Henry needs to get over himself.

[shapeshifter]

Tia Leoni's acting was perfection, IMO. Especially with the Russian guy (who is the actor?) and Buttercup.

A little too much Henry angst, but it was refreshing to see a couple work things out within a single episode.

[kwnyc]

So for such a smart bunch of people, it sure took them a long time to figure out that the girl might open up to HER OLD TEACHER, whom she reached out to essentially asking for help. And said teacher was very smart to make sure it was all in writing before she agreed to help.

 

New Russian Guy could end up being an excellent foil for Elizabeth, just as the Chinese ambassador is. 

 

One of the nicest family scenes ever with EVERYONE making fun of Elizabeth for her love of Buttercup. I kind of knew the horse was a goner then.

 

OK, so what ELSE has Henry done to save Dmitri's sister that's off-the-books and going rogue? At some point, couldn't they arrest him for treason? I do hope he DOES end up in therapy to address that savior complex/only one who CARES behavior. Because he's coming off more and more like an ass.

[innocuouspuff]

Apparently this show is boring me because ay this point I am pretty much counting the eating scenes (a lot this ep, bless TL for her willingness to go there though) and the clothes. Nadine's a-line trench and scarf in the UN were nice though I am continually perplexed by the aversion to colour the show has. Only Daisy gets to break the rule sometimes.

I guess like Henry I find all the extra-judicial shit more frustrating than anuthing else. More of the shift in tone, imo. They blew someone else up, don't care.

Poor Buttercup.

[Netfoot]

Tired of Henry and his histrionics.

 

Buttercup was doomed, from the moment Bess started talking about him, and that doom confirmed the moment there was mention of a limp.

 

Just think how a minor alteration to the script could have changed this show for the better:  Buttercup lives happily ever after, and Henry gets a visit from the vet!

[madam magpie]

Oh, Henry. He's really not cut out for spy work. He at least should have tipped off Amnesty International anonymously.

Poor Elizabeth. Poor Buttercup. But I thought they sold their farm, no?

Stevie's line about Hello Kitty being the Chanel of our time made me laugh and laugh. So snarky and yet so wise. I love Stevie.

Tea Leoni is the best. Really good stuff in this episode. She killed me with the horse. Good lord.

[MaryHedwig]

Apparently this show is boring me because ay this point I am pretty much counting the eating scenes (a lot this ep, bless TL for her willingness to go there though) and the clothes.

I live for the Blake scenes.

[thewhiteowl]

Henry said he made a mistake. Why, yes he did but I don't think he would agree with me as to what was the mistake. Getting involved in the spy biz was the first and the biggie. He said he failed and yes I agreed with that as well. He failed to realise that he really sucks at the spy biz.

[Netfoot]

I love Stevie.

 

Words I never expected to hear!  But it's true -- she is far more likeable these days.

 

Is it just me?  Or did all the talk about Dimitri's body not being released, open a little crack, through which shone a tiny ray of light, illuminating the possibility that Dimitri isn't dead?  That might be good.  He could return to DC looking for Henry.  With a Dragunov in his luggage.

[madam magpie]

Words I never expected to hear!  But it's true -- she is far more likeable these days.

 

Is it just me?  Or did all the talk about Dimitri's body not being released, open a little crack, through which shone a tiny ray of light, illuminating the possibility that Dimitri isn't dead?  That might be good.  He could return to DC looking for Henry.  With a Dragunov in his luggage.

Aw...I always liked Stevie, even in the semi-bratty days. She's always had spunk and sass. But she's definitely grown into her coolness as the show as gone on.

I keep hoping Dimitri isn't dead. I always feel like it's such a futile effort, but I'm glad it's not just me. I say...No body? Not dead!

[Texasmom1970]

Tired of Henry and his histrionics. Henry gets a visit from the vet!

Me too, sick of his drama queen crap taking over. Seriously how many times this episode did he blow up and lay into his wife. Maybe just me but I don't give a shit what he is dealing with I think she let him off too easy. I would have torn him a new asshole.

Buttercup, beautiful horse snd such a sad and touching part of the rpiside!

[NUguy514]

I vividly remember the day my mom had to put down her horse. Elizabeth with Buttercup was like my mom with her horse when it was time, and it got miiiiiiighty dusty during those scenes.

Oh, and shut up, Henry.

[shapeshifter]

I'm guessing the writers realized Henry was so multi-talented that he had become a cartoon, and so they decided to bring him down a notch. PTSD (or whatever he's got) is a reasonable direction for them to go, but judging from the fan comments here and elsewhere, they better wrap up this arc pronto. It seems like with the Hijihryia arc completed, he could say goodbye to the spy biz and go back to just teaching. But it sounds like they are going to put him in therapy too since Bess isn't what he needs for that.

I appreciated how they showed what a fine line there was between getting refugee status and being treated as a terrorist.

Edited April 18, 2016 by shapeshifter

[bros402]

Words I never expected to hear!  But it's true -- she is far more likeable these days.

 

Is it just me?  Or did all the talk about Dimitri's body not being released, open a little crack, through which shone a tiny ray of light, illuminating the possibility that Dimitri isn't dead?  That might be good.  He could return to DC looking for Henry.  With a Dragunov in his luggage.

 

But then imagine how many episodes they would have about Henry if Dmitri appeared with a Dragunov.

[Bobcatkitten]

Like you all I really wish Henry had never gone this route and stayed a professor who got involved just every once in a while. It brings the whole show down.

 

Am I the only one wondering who was watching the kids at home? The boy didn't have plans that I know. He just didn't want to go. Is he hanging around at home by himself?

[MaryHedwig]

Am I the only one wondering who was watching the kids at home? The boy didn't have plans that I know. He just didn't want to go. Is he hanging around at home by himself?

Yeah, I worry about him too.  Henry and Elizabeth know he is safe because of the security outside, but who is feeding his soul and spirit? And his body for that matter?

 

They really are neglectful persons, and "off saving the world" is no excuse. I suggest they have Blake move in with them...or at least let Blake be in charge of finding nurturing surrogates when they can't be around.

 

This issue pushes a button for me. I grew up in an exclusive upper-middle class community with parents who had no time for their kids.

 

It has been labeled "The Orphanage."

[kwnyc]

 

They really are neglectful persons, and "off saving the world" is no excuse. I suggest they have Blake move in with them...or at least let Blake be in charge of finding nurturing surrogates when they can't be around.

(But didn't Blake break one of the kids last time he was the babysitter?) Or maybe Jason's just accident-prone.

[madam magpie]

Neglectful?? Jason said he didn't want to go. They didn't just ditch him.

My guess is that Stevie came home after the symphony to stay with Jason...like the other times Elizabeth and Henry went out of town together. And even if she didn't, I feel like he's ok for one night. I feel pretty confident that there's food in the fridge and enough video games to keep him happy.

Edited April 18, 2016 by madam magpie

[needschocolate]

I would be fine if they changed the name of the show to "Madam Secretary's Family" (although that is a stupid name for a show) and they had more family stuff mixed in with the SOS stuff, as long as the Henry stuff didn't involve him doing spy/intelligence stuff for the government.  Well, and he can't do any "save the world" or charity kind of stuff either. I don't want him to do anything that implies that he is the only one that cares and all government people are paper-pushing bureaucrats.  I mean, all government people just might be paper-pushing bureaucrats, but I don't want to keep being subjected to Henry the Righteous anymore.

 

My nitpick of the week - If they don't go up to their old house anymore, why did it look so lived in?  

 

I'm guessing the writers realized Henry was so multi-talented that he had become a cartoon, and so they decided to bring him down a notch. PTSD (or whatever he's got) is a reasonable direction for them to go, but judging from the fan comments here and elsewhere, they better wrap up this arc pronto. It seems like with the Hijihryia arc completed, he could say goodbye to the spy biz and go back to just teaching. But it sounds like they are going to put him in therapy too since Bess isn't what he needs for that.

 

I hope Henry gets some help (off-screen).  It has always bugged me that Elizabeth was at a bombing where her friend was killed in front of her and she ends up seeing a therapist and/or taking anti-anxiety meds (well, that part didn't bug me), but Henry has had more than one instance (Dimitri, the woman who was killed in a bomb blast a few weeks ago, and I think there was someone before Dimitri too) where Henry could feel some responsibility for someone's death, plus he got radiation poisoning and could have died, but Henry doesn't need to talk to someone or get medication to help him through.  

 

Am I the only one wondering who was watching the kids at home? The boy didn't have plans that I know. He just didn't want to go. Is he hanging around at home by himself?

 

Well, he doesn't seem like the type to throw any keg parties, so I am guess he is home alone playing video games.  However, I think it was only one night that he was alone, while his sisters were out, and he is old enough for that.  

[Netfoot]

Well, he doesn't seem like the type to throw any keg parties, so I am guess he is home alone playing video games.  However, I think it was only one night that he was alone, while his sisters were out, and he is old enough for that.  

 

How old is he?  When I was 11, my parents went overseas for a long weekend, leaving me alone at home for three days.  The house was stocked with food, the supermarket was within walking distance, and I had adult friends and family I could telephone in an emergency.  I didn't have an armed security detail outside, but I managed, without incident.  

[shapeshifter]

How old is he? When I was 11, my parents went overseas for a long weekend, leaving me alone at home for three days. The house was stocked with food, the supermarket was within walking distance, and I had adult friends and family I could telephone in an emergency. I didn't have an armed security detail outside, but I managed, without incident.

Yeah, but when my youngest was that age she cut herself trying to force a rock into a jar. It took me an hour in Sacto rush hour traffic to get home to her and then another half hour to the ER. I would've felt even worse if a neighbor had to take care of her. Her oldest sister was in college across the river.

But Blake would be okay. He's learned from experience at this point and is the closest thing to family nearby.

Edited April 18, 2016 by shapeshifter

[madam magpie]

How old is he? When I was 11, my parents went overseas for a long weekend, leaving me alone at home for three days. The house was stocked with food, the supermarket was within walking distance, and I had adult friends and family I could telephone in an emergency. I didn't have an armed security detail outside, but I managed, without incident.

He's got to be 13 or 14 by now, plenty old enough to stay home alone for one night with a security detail outside.

[Guest]

I felt this episode was substandard. I get that Henry is frustrated and Bess is Secretary of State, but her control over the minutia of a visa application process is so limited. But why wouldn't calling the teacher be the first thing they tried when she wouldn't talk instead of the (stereotypical plot device of a) mean guy who wanted to waterboard her or something.

 

The horse part was the only part I connected with this week.  And I did like Henry's apology after the first time he mistreated Bess this episode.  

[betsyboo]

Did Henry ever admit to hiring a lawyer for the sister? He only got "caught" for the Amnesty I'ntl thing, yes? So he still hasn't told her the whole truth? Also: hate the "I DIDN'T LIE!" "Oh, right, you just held something back from me." No, Henry - hair-split all you want, still a lie.

 

Am sad for Buttercup. Got dusty in my house, too. SO GLAD they didn't show anything more than her talking to him. I want a mention next episode of how she and the kids are faring after such a loss.

 

Daisy: "it's alright - go ahead..." Blake: "BOOOOM!!" 

[Dowel Jones]

SO GLAD they didn't show anything more than her talking to him.

 

I don't think he would  have been euthanized at the farm, anyway, unless they planned on burying him there, so it wouldn't have been shown.  The obvious reason being that 1000# of animal is difficult to deal with after death.  I do wonder why it was put in there, though.  It didn't really connect with the rest of the show dynamic.  Maybe it will come up again in a different context, although I hope it won't be another "Henry loses another one" rant.

[madam magpie]

I don't think he would have been euthanized at the farm, anyway, unless they planned on burying him there, so it wouldn't have been shown. The obvious reason being that 1000# of animal is difficult to deal with after death. I do wonder why it was put in there, though. It didn't really connect with the rest of the show dynamic. Maybe it will come up again in a different context, although I hope it won't be another "Henry loses another one" rant.

I think the story of Buttercup was meant to show how disconnected Elizabeth and Henry were, and then to provide a means of reconciliation. Henry had to see how mean he was being to Elizabeth so that he could change his tune. Leaving her alone to cope with the death of her beloved horse so that he could go back to the job that was driving a wedge between them was pretty close to rock bottom for a guy like Henry, who has always been shown as being nurturing, present, and supportive. That's why it was so important for him to come back to her at the end; it was Henry realizing how far he'd fallen...or starting to realize it anyway.

[VinceW]

I think the story of Buttercup was meant to show how disconnected Elizabeth and Henry were, and then to provide a means of reconciliation. Henry had to see how mean he was being to Elizabeth so that he could change his tune. Leaving her alone to cope with the death of her beloved horse so that he could go back to the job that was driving a wedge between them was pretty close to rock bottom for a guy like Henry, who has always been shown as being nurturing, present, and supportive. That's why it was so important for him to come back to her at the end; it was Henry realizing how far he'd fallen...or starting to realize it anyway.

Great perspective. I had a good feeling about this episode aside from the misleading promo because of the female writer, Moira Kirland. She does a very good job writing couples in relationships along with David Grae who is also on the Madam Secretary writing staff.  Both of them wrote many of the early episodes of the Castle series that helped to develop the Caskett relationship which turned the show into such a success. I was disappointed in the early writing of the episode especially the argument scene in the kitchen. Elizabeth was standing there listening to Henry vent while at the same time using very meaningful words explaining things to him which was exactly what he needed to hear at the Paris hotel after the aborted Dmitri extraction. However, when it was later revealed that Buttercup, her beloved horse, had to be euthanized, it became clear that the writer would use that event to get some kind of reconciliation started between them which did happen in the end scene. It compares to Russell telling Bess his personal story about losing his brother in the car accident that pushed Elizabeth to start therapy. If not for that turnabout, the early dialogue from Henry about the inefficiency in government and how Bess was part of it made no sense at all and his ramblings sounded rather contrived. If he was so disconnected from the work, then just quit for goodness sake.  When Elizabeth had the PTSD, the writers handled her obsession over Jason’s safety just right with Henry being very understanding and supportive while at the same time urging her to seek therapy. I just hope that the couple therapy goes quickly and the writers move past this story line because it will hurt ratings if it drags on too long. IMO

Edited April 19, 2016 by VinceW

[shapeshifter]

I just hope that the couple therapy goes quickly and the writers move past this story line because it will hurt ratings if it drags on too long. IMO

I hope we get some humor milage out of the couples therapy, even though that's not the focus.

[Driad]

Yesterday's "60 Minutes" had a segment on how insecure cell phones are, even for government people. Watching Bess et al. on their cell phones, I couldn't help picturing Russians, terrorists, college kids, and potential blackmailers listening in.

[Netfoot]

However, when it was later revealed that her horse had to be euthanized, it became clear that the writer would use that event to get some kind of reconciliation started between them which did happen in the end scene.

 

Yes, I think the entire Buttercup story arc was for the sole purpose of giving Henry a vehicle for redemption.  Yes, he was a dickhead several times during the episode, but he was there for her at the very end, when she faced the loss of beloved Buttercup.  

[madam magpie]

Yes, I think the entire Buttercup story arc was for the sole purpose of giving Henry a vehicle for redemption. Yes, he was a dickhead several times during the episode, but he was there for her at the very end, when she faced the loss of beloved Buttercup.

I really don't think it was that narrow or one-sided. If we're to view Elizabeth and Henry as a unit, which I think we're meant to, their individual struggles will affect each other. In addition to Henry realizing he'd been wrong and how wrong, we saw Elizabeth coping with loss, both the actual loss of the horse and the less tangible but equally difficult loss of the emotional attachment to her husband. How she reacted to that told us a lot about her and what she struggles with too. She essentially shut down; she didn't want her family around, she didn't want to talk about it, she seemed uncomfortable when Henry kissed her before he left, etc. Then if you broaden the theme to the rest of the show, you get Hijriyyah (that's her name, right?) coping with the loss of her country and freedom, and the task force redeeming itself with its approach to her. And then she gains her freedom via iffy means, redeeming Elizabeth too. Also the vet flat-out declares Bess right about the horse. The whole show was about loss and redemption, or the path to redemption, not just Henry's.

I just hope that the couple therapy goes quickly and the writers move past this story line because it will hurt ratings if it drags on too long.

I hope it doesn't drag on too, mainly because I like the show better when Henry and Elizabeth are in sync. I feel like we get enough drama with their jobs; we don't need it from them too. But I also like the idea of them fighting (I liked the fight in the kitchen a lot) and working it out because that seems believable and admirable to me. And I like the idea that they'd be willing to seek therapy together even while they're in a fairly OK place (no estrangement, etc.). Edited April 19, 2016 by madam magpie

[picklesprite]

I do believe that was a Blue Apron food box Henry brought in. The logo was different, but he pulled out the silver insulated bag, just like BA has, and Elizabeth read from one of their recipe cards. That was about the most shameless, blatant produce placement I have ever seen ever, but since I love BA, I am going to forgive them.

 

Weirdly, I really liked this ep, or at least I wasn't bored the way I was starting about three eps ago. It made me happy to be able to enjoy it again.

 

I think it's fine that Henry is still so upset about Dimitri; in fact, I think it reflects well on him, but the way he lashed out at Elizabeth and sabotaged her did not reflect well on him. Don't be a spy, Henry. You aren't sufficiently cold-blooded, and you blame everybody else for the results of your decision to spy.

 

Oh, Buttercup, we barely knew ye!

 

TL is wonderful.

[Kromm]

Only JUST saw this.

 

Okay, for all that's been wrong with Doctor Professor Captain Dickhead, the show has never been THIS manipulated before to allow Tim Daly his goddamn Emmy submission. And I don't mean that as a compliment. The scenery chewing by him in this episode was gigantic.  I do get that him still being upset about Dimitri makes sense, and in principle like the continuity of it, but in reality think it's just another way this show is being totally handed off to him and his character.

Yesterday's "60 Minutes" had a segment on how insecure cell phones are, even for government people. Watching Bess et al. on their cell phones, I couldn't help picturing Russians, terrorists, college kids, and potential blackmailers listening in.

To be fair. there's "government" and there's "Government".  Your average mid-level bureaucrat is going to just have a normal phone. The Secretary of State, in theory, is likely to have a more secure phone. That said, not everyone he or she SPEAKS to will, so there's still that loophole. Plus, of course, as we know, Secretarys of State can just be dumbasses with stuff like email instead. 

I hope Henry gets some help (off-screen).  It has always bugged me that Elizabeth was at a bombing where her friend was killed in front of her and she ends up seeing a therapist and/or taking anti-anxiety meds (well, that part didn't bug me), but Henry has had more than one instance (Dimitri, the woman who was killed in a bomb blast a few weeks ago, and I think there was someone before Dimitri too) where Henry could feel some responsibility for someone's death, plus he got radiation poisoning and could have died, but Henry doesn't need to talk to someone or get medication to help him through.  

Well, he's Superman, isn't he? (ironic that Tim Daly really WAS the voice of Superman for a long time)

[shapeshifter]

Only JUST saw this.

Okay, for all that's been wrong with Doctor Professor Captain Dickhead, the show has never been THIS manipulated before to allow Tim Daly his goddamn Emmy submission.

That's Doctor Professor Captain Sir Dickhead to you (and others), Kromm.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, heh.

Edited April 19, 2016 by shapeshifter

[Dowel Jones]

Watching Bess et al. on their cell phones, I couldn't help picturing Russians, terrorists, college kids, and potential blackmailers listening in.

 

At least it's not as bad as the Scandal-verse, where the Attorney General sits with the Chief of Staff on a public park bench, next to a food vendor, discussing items of national security.

[VinceW]

Only JUST saw this.

 

Okay, for all that's been wrong with Doctor Professor Captain Dickhead, the show has never been THIS manipulated before to allow Tim Daly his goddamn Emmy submission. And I don't mean that as a compliment. The scenery chewing by him in this episode was gigantic.  I do get that him still being upset about Dimitri makes sense, and in principle like the continuity of it, but in reality think it's just another way this show is being totally handed off to him and his character.

 

That's Doctor Professor Captain Sir Dickhead to you (and others), Kromm.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, heh.

It is a real stretch to consider that an Emmy performance. Even Jane was unable to support his actions over Talia.

Edited April 19, 2016 by VinceW

[needschocolate]

At least it's not as bad as the Scandal-verse, where the Attorney General sits with the Chief of Staff on a public park bench, next to a food vendor, discussing items of national security.

Reminds me of all those park bench meetings with Henry and Dimitri.

[Kromm]

It is a real stretch to consider that an Emmy performance. Even Jane was unable to support his actions over Talia.

Eek, Vince. I think you totally missed my point. I didn't say it was an Emmy worthy performance. I said it was an Emmy submission. A totally manipulated piece of scenery chewing that would be hyped as "showing his range".  It was garbage, but the kind of garbage people sometimes eat up and unwisely praise.

 

The funny thing is Tim Daly is not inherently a bad actor. But that was bad acting. In the way Hollywood approves of rather than disapproves of, but that some of us find more than a bit shitty.

[VinceW]

Eek, Vince. I think you totally missed my point. I didn't say it was an Emmy worthy performance. I said it was an Emmy submission. A totally manipulated piece of scenery chewing that would be hyped as "showing his range".  It was garbage, but the kind of garbage people sometimes eat up and unwisely praise.

 

The funny thing is Tim Daly is not inherently a bad actor. But that was bad acting. In the way Hollywood approves of rather than disapproves of, but that some of us find more than a bit shitty.

Point well taken. The bad acting took him out of character in order to drive some kind of 'married couple needs therapy' story. However, it hurt what credibility the writers had established for him working with Jane in intelligence. I was disappointed in the writing as well given her past efforts, but sometimes the blame belongs on the director.

Edited April 21, 2016 by VinceW

[J-Man]

 

That was about the most shameless, blatant product placement I have ever seen ever

I'm not sure how blatant it could be when the name of the actual company wasn't even shown. Aren't there several similar meal delivery services? And people who've never used them wouldn't know about the silver insulation, which could also be used by other services as well.

[sinkwriter]

Quote

The whole show was about loss and redemption, or the path to redemption, not just Henry's.

I think it was also about telling Henry to stop blaming Elizabeth. He never said outright that he blamed her for what happened to Dmitri but all his other words and actions seemed to say that he blamed her for the decision to let Dmitri hang in the wind. So when the vet was talking to Henry about options for the horse and Elizabeth was the one who realized there was no good alternative and they had to let him go, and when Henry seemed to balk at the idea, I thought it was pretty pointed that the vet said, "Elizabeth has made the right decision." It seemed to be about the Dmitri situation as well. At least it felt strongly about that when I watched the scene. It seemed to be saying, stop blaming her, Henry, she made the only decision she could make under the circumstances.

I think it's long past time for him to get out of the spy game. It's clear he has too much conscience for the hardcore aspects of it. That's not a bad thing. It just means he's not suited for such a difficult job.

Ever since he first got Dmitri involved, I had the gut feeling that he was going to get the poor kid killed. He never should have placed Dmitri in that position in the first place. He made promises he couldn't deliver, and that made me really angry with Henry.

[Calamity Jane]

On April 19, 2016 at 9:36 AM, needschocolate said:

Reminds me of all those park bench meetings with Henry and Dimitri.

Or all the times the whole team (or parts of it) are sitting in a bar or restaurant talking over extremely sensitive issues involving national security. Gives me the pip every time.