S02.E11: .380

[The Crazed Spruce]

The Punisher's war continues, and so does the body count in Hell's Kitchen. Murdock tries to finish what the DA started.

[Bec]

"You love him" Shut up, Frank. I liked that Karen was getting to be so over Matt.

 

The concept of it being great to have people around who hurt you because they're close enough to do so - dysfunctional much? To paraphrase a season 1 quote "I know you like to brag about how great it is to endure pain, but maybe next time you can try ducking?"

 

Madame Gao seemed merely amused by this whole thing. Everybody else is getting ready to kill each other all the time and here she is just doing some nice watercolor painting.

[Sakura12]

I hope the other heroes have Claire's number for when they get hurt now that she quit the hospital. 

 

I can't believe Matt actually thought about following Frank's method. Although he will probably need to do that with Fisk or Foggy and Karen will be killed. I also liked that Frank wouldn't let him be the killer. Both him and Elektra seem to like the light in Matt and don't want him to be like them. 

[ForeverAlone]

Yeah, I agree. I never understood the idea that if someone hurts you over and over again, that means it is love. I'm sure that is not the writers' intent (at least I hope not, since they seem to be pushing the Matthew/Karen romance), but that is the same excuse abusers make to their victims to get them to stay. Why is having someone who can hurt you supposed to be that great? 

 

I am always deeply amused by Madame Gao, in the best way. She looks like such a harmless grandma who will feed you cookies, but she can send you flying across the room with one punch. She is not to be trifled with. :)

[FurryFury]

Frank giving Karen romantic advice was awkward and felt forced and out of character (stop it with telling characters they love each other rather then showing, such a common mistake!). I otherwise loved the Frank/Karen scenes, except for this one. I don't actually dislike Matt/Karen, I'm neutral on that, but I really can't believe she loves him, and the show has failed to sell it to me. She didn't look that broken up about their estrangement, more like pissed off. 

[Bec]

Yeah, I get that Matt and Karen are attracted to each other, but that's about it. If you want me to buy that it's love, you're going to have to earn it, show.

 

It's actually okay if they're only at "attraction" and not at "love". Even Claire/Matt never claimed to be "love". They didn't even know what that was. Relationships that aren't quite "wuv" can be interesting and important, too.

 

Oh yes, it is such a peeve of mine to be shown dysfunction and told it is love in a story. Just no, I cannot with this.

[JustaPerson]

I thought the show kinda said that. I mean like Karen said, there are a lot of feelings there, "ingredients" as she put it, but not quite love yet. It could be, they're definitely both important to each other in a platonic way but it's too early to know if it could work romantically (WAY too many secrets from both of them.) But Frank is an all-or-nothing kind of guy (in every way). Of course he would say "you're in love!" Maybe he's right, but he also thinks mowing down groups of criminals with a machine gun is right. I think Karen knows he's probably not the one to listen to for romantic advice anyway, though he could be right at some point in the future. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by JustaPerson

[Sakura12]

I think it's more of the tv trope of other characters telling someone they love another person. Not whether or not Matt and Karen know what they are to each other. The tv reason for telling the audience that, is to tell us they love each other. Which I don't really get from either side. They clearly care about one another but I don't think they are each other's one. Plus I think the actors only have a friendship chemistry and would rather they stay that way. 

[Bec]

Now I'm imagining The Punisher writing an advice column. Dear Frank...

[JustaPerson]

That's what I thinking when I wrote that post! Great minds think alike...

 

"Dear In Love with a Liar?,

It sounds like you have to really think about how to punish your man in a way he deserves. Sometimes men need a good bang-up before they learn! I personally think the sound of a good ol' machine gun brings a man back to cold, hard reality. And some men are passed teaching and just need punishment....

.....

And remember, communication is key!

 

Regards, Frank"

[ulkis]

I was a little confused at the end on the dock. That was Frank's heartbeat Matt was listening to, right, and not Karen's?

[VCRTracking]

I thought it was Karen's.

 

Man, Claire needs a vacation and Matt should pay. You owe her that much Murdoch.

 

I knew that guy wasn't the real "Blacksmith". Is this guy like Keyzer Soze? Is is someone we've seen before or some new person.

 

Frank Castle giving love advice was like Charlie Sheen giving Ferris Bueller's sister advice in the police station.

 

Yeah, I agree. I never understood the idea that if someone hurts you over and over again, that means it is love. I'm sure that is not the writers' intent (at least I hope not, since they seem to be pushing the Matthew/Karen romance), but that is the same excuse abusers make to their victims to get them to stay. Why is having someone who can hurt you supposed to be that great?

 

Matt hasn't really hurt Karen "over and over again" but I don't think she's the love of his life either.

Edited March 21, 2016 by VCRTracking

[ulkis]

I thought it was Karen's.

I thought it was too. I thought it was supposed to be her heartbeat telling Matt she cared for Frank a lot, that it was something he didn't know about her but if it was Frank's then that kinda shoots that theory.

[Cthulhudrew]

I actually liked Frank's speech. I mean, I think the concept is fine, though the explanation was kind of screwy (if they can hurt you hang on to them?), but mostly I like that it came from Frank. I think Bernthal and/or the writers took a great approach to the character here. In the medium of comics, he comes across much less emotional, much harder, and while that works in the context of that medium, I don't think it would have translated well to the screen, with a real live actor playing the part. Maybe if it was in a series of his own with narrative dialogue that could play counterpoint to the actions taking place on screen, it could work, but not here, where the character is not the protagonist and is meant to play off of other characters.

 

In any event, Frank comes across to me like real soldiers I have known, and/or read/heard about. The ones who are pretty well adjusted, because even though they've seen a lot of horrors that probably still haunt them, are able to compartmentalize their lives as soldiers from their lives at home in peacetime. They have families, friends, jobs that they fit into as a "real" life, and it is a whole world away from their lives on the field of battle. Frank, here, has been shown as someone who has had that "real" life taken away from him, and all he now has left is his soldier life. So when he says things like he won't take a PTSD defense because it diminishes those that really do suffer it, when he gives love advice about holding on to the people who care most for you before they are gone, it really carries weight, in a way that makes his character more believable and real. And it makes the question of the morality of his quest all the harder to answer, which again, IMO, is far more interesting.

[zxy556575]

When Frank was giving advice to the lovelorn, I took it to mean: Hey, X number of weeks ago this person was just someone sitting next to you on the bus, but now that stranger has the ability to wound you because you're in love. You've opened yourself to the possibility of being hurt emotionally, and it's that vulnerability that's meaningful and worth saving. Or something.

[FurryFury]

I've decided to see that advice as Frank projecting his own stuff and also as a way to focus Karen on somebody else rather than himself because he knows she should be as far away from him as possible. Works much better that way. Of course, I still haven't finished the season so maybe this headcanon will be shot down.

[Dandesun]

I really loved Frank telling Matt that he couldn't cross the line. Maybe when it comes down to it, that's what I like about Frank... he knows what he is but he doesn't want anyone else to become him. In a lot of ways, you could see him arguing with Matt early on about being a half measure and a coward and all of that... but when Matt suggests that 'just this once' he could go that far, Frank said no. Once you cross that line, you don't cross back. At that point, after the rescue in episode 4, after prison and running into Fisk and cleaning out Cell Block A... maybe Frank realized that Daredevil is doing his thing and it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's hard to say exactly but it's one of those things that makes the characters and their relationship more complex. It's not easy to describe.
 

In other news: It's a pleasure to see Madame Gao. You know, despite her being all evil and shit.

 

Oh, the ninja hospital attack? Whaa-aa-aaat?! Man, what is it about ninjas? Still, Claire going into the room where the 'rescued' crew was and they're all standing there under flickering lights with a dead body at their feet like some Children of the Corn knock off? It's entirely possible I may have said "RUN!!!" while watching alone in the privacy of my own home.

 

You do not fuck with zombie like creatures standing in a group under flickering fluorescent light while there is a dead body at their collective feet. Hell, dead body or not, you turn and run and hide behind Frank Castle if that's at all possible. If not... find a makeshift flame thrower, hunker down and pray for daylight.

 

Seriously, though, that hospital fight was great. See? There was a reason Matt was hanging out on the roof!

[benteen]

Frank not wanting Matt to cross the line is definitely very-Frank Castle.  The war on crime that The Punisher wages is his own private battle and he doesn't want to drag anyone else into it.

 

I think Jon Bernthal spent most of this show with raccoon make-up on his face.

[Dandesun]

 

I think Jon Bernthal spent most of this show with raccoon make-up on his face.

 

He totally did! I was thinking that in the last episodes. Jon Bernthal IS Rocket Raccoon! Coming soon to theaters. ;)

 

But, be fair, he did spend a significant amount of time fighting. His first run in with Daredevil. His second one. The Irish Mob getting a hold of him. He and Matt fighting their way out. Prison. Cell Block A. Fisk. Every time he seemed to be getting some time to heal, he'd get into another raging free for all.

[wmdekooning]

Madame Gao seemed merely amused by this whole thing. Everybody else is getting ready to kill each other all the time and here she is just doing some nice watercolor painting.

I was really hoping for a Daredevil/Madame Gao re-match the way she knocked him back last season.

[feverfew]

I've been thinking alot about what constitutes a hero and I love this show for making me think so hard about what justice means to me. It's funny; I'm almost out of fucks to give when it comes to the so-called heroes on The Walking Dead (another show where I constantly have to re-examine when to draw the line: when you're not allowed to come back from what you did; when you're no longer on the side of the angels, but has become what you fought so hard to destroy). But Frank Castle fascinates me in a way I haven't felt for an anti-hero in years. On the surface of it, his actions horrifies me, like they horrified Karen this episode, but he is so broken. It's nothing like I felt for Fisk, who - despite flashes of sympathy, especially in regards to Vanessa - was wholly a bad guy. There is something; a whole world inside him, that makes me want to see him redeemed. I love that both Karen and Matt/Daredevil are our entry points to this character, because while Matt represents the clean version of vigilantism (no dead bodies - at least that we can see), Karen is me. Equally fascinated and horrified.

 

 

Frank giving Karen romantic advice was awkward and felt forced and out of character (stop it with telling characters they love each other rather then showing, such a common mistake!). I otherwise loved the Frank/Karen scenes, except for this one. I don't actually dislike Matt/Karen, I'm neutral on that, but I really can't believe she loves him, and the show has failed to sell it to me. She didn't look that broken up about their estrangement, more like pissed off. 

 

That's the one aspect of the show I've been struggling with this season. I wasn't fond of Karen last season, but this season she's shot up to first place for me (a massive turnaround I really applaud both actress and writers for). The love story, however, still feels out of place. Juvenile in a way that doesn't suit this particular show. I understand that it's supposed to represent some sort of innocence in a murky world, but chemistry just isn't there for me. Especially when I compare it to the chemistry between Jon Bernthal and Deborah Ann Woll which is out of this world.

 

I thought it was too. I thought it was supposed to be her heartbeat telling Matt she cared for Frank a lot, that it was something he didn't know about her but if it was Frank's then that kinda shoots that theory.

I think it was Karen's heartbeat he heard too.

Edited March 22, 2016 by feverfew

[Ottis]

I don't understand where the show is going with Foggy. Karen can become an investigative reporter or go to law school or a number of things. Foggy is a lawyer with a slight bump in his rep, but Fisk has told Matt that Foggy and Matt are dead meat at some point. So does Matt tell Foggy? Or let him remain vulnerable and unknowing?

[thuganomics85]

Frank giving Karen relationship advice has got to be the strangest thing I ever seen.  I'm not sure there is really any advice I would take from him, unless I really wanted to know everything about guns and the best way to stab someone (which, safe to say, I don't.) While I do suspect the show wants me to agree with Frank about Matt/Karen, I do think there comes a point where the pain isn't worth it.  I certainly get that relationships have their ups and downs, and certainly their can be painful arguments even with the best of them, but I feel like Matt and Karen never even got of the ground, thanks to Matt's lying and keeping secrets from her.  So, I'm not sure I agree with him, but then again, I do think a lot of it was coming from him missing his own wife and how he would easily take the pain that comes with it, then not having her in his life at all.

 

Either way, I enjoyed the brief little Frank/Karen roadtrip.  The show surprisingly struck gold with this duo.  Really loved how Jon Bernthal and Deborah Ann Woll played off one another.

 

Loved Frank's reaction to Matt briefly agreeing to go with his killing method.  That really seems in character.  Frank strikes me as someone who knows full well what he does is wrong, and while it's too late for him, no one else should follow his lead.  It's crazy and hypocritical, but I get it.  He expects "Daredevil" to be better then him, and was disappointed that he even considered it.

 

Madame Gao!  The gang is almost back together!  They just need to have it be revealed that The Hand resurrected Owsley, and then it would be complete!  But I love that Gao was just hiding this entire time because why wouldn't she be?  It's the smart play.

 

Not surprised Claire quit.  There is so much she can take.  Plus, she has another spin-off to get to.

 

I wonder who Marcie has in mind for Foggy's next job?  I know who is on top of my list, but I don't want to get my hopes up.

 

Episode ends with Elektra facing off against Stick.  Yep, time to watch another one!

[that one guy]

Yeah, I agree. I never understood the idea that if someone hurts you over and over again, that means it is love.

 

Frank's not the most articulate relationship counselor, but don't think he was telling her she should love him, just that the fact that he has the power to hurt her indicates that she already does. If she had a boss that she didn't care for that acted this way, it wouldn't hurt, as such. She'd just be hanging out at the bar, saying "my boss is such a loser, I really need a new job." But loving him doesn't mean she should be with him. Frank's speaking from a certain place, and obviously he wishes his wife and family hadn't been murdered. But if she really broke his heart and stomped on it all the time like he says, possibly she wasn't a good match for him? I'd love to hear her side of the story as well.

[Danny Franks]

Karen is actually awesome. She's smart and driven and has principles that she won't abandon, no matter the danger. I love how much the writers have given her to do, and how much she drives the plot of the show, while Matt is out beating up endless ninjas.

Marcie is pretty great as well. I'd like to see more of her on the show. She should be treated better by Foggy, as well. Dude doesn't know how lucky he is, that she's interested in him.

So Claire has quit? Good for her. Time to use her connections to set up a clinic where injured vigilantes can go to get patched up. Working at that hospital was a truly thankless task. Emergency services in the Marvel universe are the real heroes.

Chinatown. Of course. Madame Gao is up to her teeth in this whole mess. I liked how civil she and Matt were to one another.

I understood what Frank was going for with his speech to Karen, but I think it missed the mark. What Matt has been doing is nothing like the idea of knowing someone well enough to hurt them. He's been hurting Karen by lying to her and by putting too many other things ahead of her.

I think hearing Frank in action should bring home to her, finally, that no matter what justifications he has, he is a dangerous psychopath. There is a world of difference between what he does and what Karen did to Wesley. She needs to stop pretending otherwise.

Elektra versus Stick? Sadly I don't see that ending well for Elektra.

[Actionmage]

So Claire has quit? Good for her. Time to use her connections to set up a clinic where injured vigilantes can go to get patched up.

 

Yep, we can't be alone in that thought, though. Claire needs a Go Fund Me page so we can help her achieve this goal of helping- and fiercely protecting- her charges.

 

It was nice to see Ben's Shirley fighting to help Claire. Too bad she brought up the keeping things quiet part. The hospital could have kept the best damn nurse they had.

 

I don't think I want Foggy to work where Marcie works. I think she is employed by a firm from Jessica Jones, and if she is and it's the one I think it is, then I want Foggy to run far away.

 

Karen and Ellison are pretty good too. Karen is lucky to get such good bosses.

 

What I loved about Madame Gao was that she was just serenely painting a lovely scene on a kite.  Matt was brusk, not polite, but I guess Madame Gao gave him some slack due to being Western. 

 

*sais*

[FurryFury]

Time to use her connections to set up a clinic where injured vigilantes can go to get patched up.

 

This place would be attacked like every other night.

[Kel Varnsen]

So any chance The Punisher isn't dead? I mean that was a pretty big explosion, but at the same time they didn't show the body (and considering that this is a comic book story even that doesn't mean much). If he is dead I hope Matt finishes him work and finds out who Blacksmith is.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Kel Varnsen

[AudienceofOne]

So any chance The Punisher isn't dead? I mean that was a pretty big explosion, but at the same time they didn't show the body (and considering that this is a comic book story even that doesn't mean much). If he is dead I hope Matt finishes him work and finds out who Blacksmith is.

 

The Punisher is definitely not dead.

 

Especially not after his moment on the boat when he refused to let DD follow him into murder and then pushed him off the boat to save him. Combine stuff like that with the acting and I keep having to remind myself that he is a batshit psycho killer. It does help that he seems to know it now. I really liked the contrast in his conversation with Matt (paraphrased):

"They need to die. Your way isn't working!"

"You're right. My way isn't working. Maybe I need to try your method for once."

"No, you can't. You'll end up like me."

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, no way is The Punisher dead. I would be amazed if they even drew it out until the end of the season. JB is too good in the part, and The Punisher is such a huge part of the Marvel mythology (street level anyway) they are not getting rid of him yet. I do hope he gets another scene with Karen. I really love what they are doing with her this season, although, as usual, I question her self preservation skills a bit. 

 

Ninjas ninjas everywhere! Here a ninja there a ninja everywhere a ninja! 

 

Great seeing Madam Gao again, I wasn't expected her to pop up this season. Reminds me of how much I miss the old criminal gang from season 1. I mean, I like the new characters this season, but the whole season 1 bad guy cast had such variety among its villains, and I liked seeing these different factions trying to work together. It was fun seeing Madam Gao have a totally chill conversation with Matt in his DD outfit, and her amusement about his wardrobe change., Nothing phases that lady.  

[FurryFury]

Madame Gao was probably my favorite villain from season 1 (although Owlsley was also fun), so I was glad to see her and I totally expect her to play a more major role later on (and/on on The Defenders/Iron Fist).

 

Didn't think anybody would believe in Frank dying off-screen...

Edited March 26, 2016 by FurryFury

[KaleyFirefly]

When Claire got thrown out the window, I think my heart stopped for a second. I'm glad she's OK and that she quit that place.

 

I don't want Stick to die, I think the character and actor are really interesting every time they are on screen. But I love Elektra (and her sais) as well...hopefully those crazy kids can work it all out. I love that this show will have an awesome fight scene going on -- Stick vs. Elektra vs. Daredevil -- and then all of a sudden ninjas show up! And it becomes even more awesome!

 

Is the blood from the zombie kids what they use to somehow bring people back from the dead?

 

Seeing Madame Gao again was great. I was intrigued by her in season 1. We still don't know who / what she is. 

[Pogojoco]

I agree with everyone on the chemistry between Frank and Karen. Even with the weird love advice, I just love that scene in the diner. How he kind of flirts with the waitress and the "Do you always serve bullshit, or is it just her?" 

 

I also love Foggy with Marcie. And if Foggy interacts with Jessica Jones, that's not a bad thing. More strings beyond just Clare. 

[Primetimer]

Daredevil's bestie has a romantic prospect that he needs to resolve in S02.E11, because it's never going to get better than a woman whose idea of a get well gift is top-shelf booze.

Read the story

[Jael]

When they showed Madame Gao as Matt was questing for the Blacksmith, I assumed she was the Blacksmith. And now that we know she's not, I'll be disappointed in whoever it turns out to be. (Unless it turns out that she was lying and it really is her, which would please me.)

Claire out the window was a beautifully executed stunt. I gasped.

[WatchrTina]

I'm watching this ep for the first time.  I haven't read any comments above.  I had to pause the action to get up and say I can do a lot of willful suspension of disbelief for this show but I cannot get over them showing The Punisher drinking decaf.  (That's what the orange trim on the coffeepot signifies which ANYONE who has ever worked in or eaten at a diner would know.)  I blame the set decorator who clearly LOVES a pop of a primary or secondary color in a scene.

ETA:  I wish I could be a fly on the wall when Karen explains to the cops how it was that she evaded their security detail to go off with they guy they were supposedly protecting her from but now, really, she could use that protection detail back again thankyouverymuch.

Also, note to The Punisher, if you are trying to torture information out of someone, maybe don't punch him repeatedly in the mouth because in real life that would have probably broken his jaw and reduced his responses to all your questions to "Gaahmaaniglkly daramaaaggaaaa".

Edited November 25, 2016 by WatchrTina

[catrice2]

I am just watching this series.  I loved the 1st Season, the 2nd was just o.k.   I am trying hard to like Karen and Foggy, but to me the series drags when they are on the screen..  I don't follow the comics, but I guess Karen is the love interest?  Too bad Daredevil has more chemistry with Claire and she has more chemistry with the Punisher.  Matt had no chemistry with Elektra. 

The Punisher is dominating this season

[FurryFury]

Karen is Matt's LI in the comics, but so is Elektra

Spoiler

(they both die at some point, Elektra resurrects, though)

. I hope it doesn't mean they're committed to the "endgame LI" trope... At least I hope not. Considering how Matt has been treating Karen, I kinda think she deserves better. I'm also pretty much shipping her and Frank hard by this point, but that's not even the reason I'm not on board Karen/Matt, it just isn't very appealing. 

[johntfs]

On 3/21/2016 at 1:49 PM, Dandesun said:

Jon Bernthal IS Rocket Raccoon! Coming soon to theaters. ;)

And now you've reminded me that The Punisher exists in a universe that has Rocket Raccoon.