S04.E16: Broken Hearts

[way2interested]

Very random question, but humor me. Does anyone have a screen cap of the newspaper announcement of Olicity's engagement? I am honestly curious as to what it says (and I am totally that person who usually has to pause shows and films to read every little thing that the prop department writes in things).

[Athena5217]

In the first episode of season 4, we learn that Felicity has been helping Team Arrow behind Oliver's back when they were supposed to be living normal lives. Why was it okay for her to do that, but Oliver not telling her about his son is unforgivable?

I feel like Felicity is holding Oliver to a higher standard than she holds herself. In this episode, she says she'll still be part of the team, then leaves it at the end. That doesn't seem fair to Team Arrow. The Felicity I know and love doesn't abandon her friends when they need her help to save the city, mankind or puppies.

Although I can agree in principle about Oliver being wrong not to tell Felicity about his son, the whole storyline was so ridiculous that I can't empathize with Felicity. Months later, I still snort at the idea that a woman would actually tell the father of her child, "Yes, you can see your son, but only if you never tell anyone, including his aunt and your future wife about him." That crap doesn't even happen on Maury Povich.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Athena5217

[statsgirl]

I liked this episode a lot more than I thought I would.  Cupid was fun and heartbreaking, Oliver and Felicity were just heartbreaking, I liked that Felicity convinced Cupid to try love again even though she couldn't herself, and Paul Blackthorne and Katie Cassidy were great in the court room scenes.

 

Felicity leaving at the end of the episode reminded me of Diggle leaving the team at the end of 3x01 -- which lasted exactly one episode till they found that Sara had been murdered and he rejoined to help the Team. Hmmmm.......

 

That said, it gives her the opportunity to do something that isn't tied to Oliver. Let's hope the writers take advantage of it.

 

I didn't get the feeling that Felicity has been coming and going too much this season, compared to Oliver in season 3 who left the Team three times.  When Felicity thought she was no use to the Team any more because of her disability, she stayed away but came back as soon as she realized she could still do the work. This time she needed space from Oliver himself.  I was impressed that they remembered the tech he had done for Adam Hunt in the pilot episode.

 

I liked the use of Thea as Social Media Queen.

 

The only problem I had with the episode was the ridiculousness of the reasons they rejected Diggle as a witness.  Why not tell them that after Oliver lost his money (which he really didn't so he still could have paid Diggle), his services were paid for by Miss Felicity Smoak, Palmer Tech VP and later CEO to protect her boyfriend and later fiance. And why would anyone believe a drug dealer that Diggle and Thea bought $75,000 worth of drugs? Unless they were planning to set up shop themselves, for which there is no evidence, obviously the drug dealer was lying.

 

I think there's maybe a point to the flashbacks now but all I could think of was how they kept pulling me out of the present day action.
 

I am okay with Waller graduating Carrie out of the Suicide Squad after she completed her number of assignments.  Yes, she's a psychopath but unless she was actively committing crimes while with ARGUS, she needs a chance to prove that she can be okay and if she can't, then the police have to catch her, although Waller should have warned Oliver she was getting out. We can't lock up people indefinitely without trying and convicting them, Guantanamo notwithstanding.

Either it was really a good episode or the 4 month hiatus softened my heart to the show faults.

4 weeks, but it felt like 4 months to me.

Edited March 24, 2016 by statsgirl

[dtissagirl]

In this episode, she says she'll still be part of the, then leaves it at the end. That doesn't seem fair to Team Arrow. The Felicity I know and love doesn't abandon her friends when they need her help to save the city, mankind or puppies.

Well, when she said she was still a part of the team, she didn't know she'd have to fake-wed the guy she wanted to real-wed before he broke her trust, and she also didn't know she'd have to talk down a psycho treatening to bomb her by spilling her heart out to the crazy lady. The circumstances made Felicity change her mind.

[quarks]

I liked it.  Always fun to see Cupid, and if you forget the courtroom stuff and what I guess was the sudden appearance of Lost's smoke monster, it was a relatively decent filler episode.

 

Good things:

 

1. Aww. Thea reads all the gossip mags and knows all the ship names. That's so Thea.  And loved that she brought an outfit to change into.

 

2. "Olicity" making an actual appearance on the show. I cracked up. Not to mention all the tabloid paparazzi hanging around.

 

3. Stephen Amell and EBR kicking it out of the park.

 

4. Felicity almost talking Cupid out of it.  Also, coming up with an on the spot, totally truthful and yet uncommitted vow earlier. 

 

5. Cupid admitting, at the end, that Oliver and Felicity still inspire her. Awwwwww.  Also, Cupid sings.  Awwwwwwww.

 

6. Events of past episodes this season - like that drug buy - finally catching up on Team Arrow. Nice. For a show that so frequently forgets continuity, that was a welcome touch.  Also the several shoutouts to past dialogue, and the shoutout to that tech arrow from the pilot.

 

7. We need more reasons for Oliver Queen to get into a tux. For, um, reasons.

 

8. Liked that both Thea and Diggle were encouraging something admittedly very unusual for this show: open communication! Maybe Team Arrow is learning something.

 

9. Wow. Someone on this show actually wants to know why John Diggle is still working for a broke Oliver Queen and what his paycheck is. Color me shocked.

 

10. Amazed at how sinister Damien Darhk can be even when he's not saying anything. Still my favorite Arrow villain ever.

 

11. The multiple shoutbacks to previous continuity and speeches.

 

Questionable things:

 

1. This is a minor point, but wouldn't the idol thingy whatever back on the island (was it an idol?) WEIGH MORE, especially since - as we later saw - it could be used as a weapon?  And why would Poppy think that just thumping it on the floor would shatter it? It's a magical smoky idol?

 

2. I'm going to handwave Oliver's tactical issues as coming from feeling distracted about his breakup with Felicity, but, still, Arrow, bring Oliver's tactics back.

 

3. Are any of the paparazzi, or, for that matter, the lovely person officiating at the wedding, going to ask when the wedding will be rescheduled - and if not, why?

 

4. What's up with Damien's ring?  Was he just trying to hide his marital status? Enquiring minds want to know, Arrow!

 

5. Kinda surprised that neither Diggle nor Thea were aware that Oliver and Felicity had broken up, given that enough time had passed that Felicity was already packing. 

 

6. I'm mixed on Felicity leaving the team, even temporarily. Yes, I completely get that it's difficult for her to be near Oliver right now and work with him, and her snippiness could be a bit distracting. Having said that, first, for several seasons now Arrow has tried to tell us that working for Team Arrow is what Felicity really wants - it's what makes her more than just an IT girl - except, of course, when it's convenient for the angst. It's what makes her Felicity. 

 

More to the point, even last year, Felicity only stepped away from Team Arrow when she thought Oliver was dead. I can't count the finale, since shortly after that, she was back to helping out Team Arrow remotely. She was eager to return.  And the show has frequently made a point of saying that Felicity is irreplaceable, and a tech arrow from the pilot that fans poked fun at isn't going to do it.

 

I realize this is being done to allow Oliver to realize that he's doing this Green Arrow stuff not to follow his father's list (first season), to try to make things up to Tommy (second season), because Arrow is contractually obligated to show an episode on Wednesdays (third season), or because other people (Felicity, Diggle, Laurel, Thea) urged him to (second season and this season) but because he wants to - and not just because Felicity's in the lair. Still.

 

7. I'm not mixed on something else: yes, Diggle, Felicity just needs time, but no, Diggle, Felicity wasn't the one at fault here, and she's not the one who needs to come around. Rather, Oliver has to prove to Felicity that he can be trusted to be open with her. Or he needs to save her life again.

 

8. And also not mixed on my hope that this is the low point for Oliver/Felicity and we can now start heading back to the fun banter that was so good at the beginning of the season and then just stay there. Please, Arrow? After Damien Darhk's hearing this episode, you owe me.

 

9. I know that asking for any continuity, let alone sense, from the flashbacks is asking way too much, but how did both the Japanese and Chinese miss finding an elaborate cave, tunnel and temple structure that can be accessed from a prison they built? And yes, I know that in a previous episode everyone blew up a wall to get through, but given that either the Chinese or Japanese BUILT THAT WALL IN THE FIRST PLACE you'd think they would have noticed that an evil temple was behind it.

 

10. Why is Quentin Lance standing around in the open just talking to Green Arrow, and why wasn't that brought up at the hearing, given that the drug bust was?

 

11. Don't you usually need at least two witnesses at weddings, and isn't the officiating judge/pastor supposed to notice this? I know they didn't want to give Cupid too many targets, and the show wanted the visual of all of those empty chairs, but still - surely a couple of people would have missed the "sorry, the wedding is off" notices?

 

12. And speaking of that wedding, a) why didn't Felicity realize earlier she would need fake vows? They were faking a wedding, and b) what would have happened if Cupid had come in just a couple minutes later? Would the judge/pastor have just said, "I now pronounce you...."

[thegirlsleuth]

This was one of those episodes where I read east coast twitter to figure out if I should watch live on the west coast because it looked like it could be a disaster.  It was a pleasant surprise--paced really well, with everyone having nice character moments, from the relationship moments to Thea's love of tabloid websites.  I have not been a fan of Cupid in the past, but if this was the first time she'd been introduced I would have thought she was a quirky villain of the week like the Dollmaker, with the same weird obsession and offbeat crime fighting.  I thought the fight scenes with Cupid were really well done.

 

Not so good?  While I enjoyed the oily defense lawyer and a reminder of what the Queens look like to the outside, as always Arrow's treatment of the law was cockamamie, particularly Laurel cross-examining her father.  There were some off character moments, but when are there not off character moments?  Why are Diggle and Felicity not close friends anymore? I feel like he he doesn't have her back.  This almost makes me sadder than the Oliver/Felicity breakup. And personally, I don't believe Felicity would leave the team.  I think she would fight through heartbreak to save the city.  

 

There was a lot to like about the Oliver/Felicity moments. The first scene was a nice version of exes who were trying to be "friends".   I liked how he couldn't contain his glee about the opportunity to make the big statement by "forcing" the marriage, even as Felicity made clear how bad an idea it was. Oliver's big "I love you" speech left me cold, except for his little "probably not" to the justice of the peace. I loved how Felicity marched into the wedding ceremony like it was a battle--which I guess it was--but softened.  The last scene was the one that got me.  He was so hopeful based on what she said--and so was I--so when she said she wasn't describing herself or her love and doubted, in a fundamental way, that he could ever change, it was a gut punch.  Amell and Rickards were just spectacular in that scene, keeping things from tipping over into melodrama and showing how connected they were.  Also, shallow point here, they both looked gorgeous.

Edited March 24, 2016 by thegirlsleuth

[Guest]

In the first episode of season 4, we learn that Felicity has been helping Team Arrow behind Oliver's back when they were supposed to be living normal lives. Why was it okay for her to do that, but Oliver not telling her about his son is unforgivable?

 

I don't think it's fair to paint them as equal lies. Felicity lied about helping Team Arrow. Oliver lied about having a child. It's completely different, especially when he was about to marry her and start a fully committed life together. I really don't think there's any comparison.

[quarks]

Bad things:

 

1. I'm all for the flashbacks going full Indiana Jones on us, but do they have to go from boring to incomprehensible as part of the process? How did a temple get there? How did they find the temple? Why were they running round and round the tunnels? Why didn't Oliver look at a map? How were the walkie-talkies working through all of that rock and stone? Why am I asking about any of this?

 

2. Speaking of incomprehensible, this island is supposed to be in CHINA not AFRICA so what was with that African-looking prop? Did Reiter bring it when we didn't notice? (It was there when they walked into the temple area, right?) And did the smoke monster decide to come over from Lost?

 

3. I keep thinking that we've hit a new low in the sets, and then, Arrow decides to put present day Damien Darhk in the same cell that flashback Oliver was in just a few episodes ago without even moving the props. Look, Arrow, I know we've all said that the flashbacks are boring, but they're not that boring. Minus several additional points for the reuse of the hotel hallway from a Legends of Tomorrow episode.  Increase the budget, Berlanti. You're back to hiring extras again and the show seems to be selling on Amazon and iTunes, so indulge me.

 

4. And speaking of sets and prop problems, if your props indicate that everyone is in a federal court, then you make me wonder why, exactly, is a city ADA prosecuting anyone in a federal court, since I thought only federal prosecutors could do that, instead of wondering what would happen to Damien. Don't distract me, show.

 

5. The fit on Felicity's bodice was so drastically bad I kept expecting her boobs to fall out. Not really what you should have been going for in that scene, Arrow.

 

6. Why doesn't Thea have her own motorcycle, and if she doesn't, why can't she take Laurel's when Laurel isn't out in the field?

 

7. Did everyone just forget Alex? He was also a witness, and last I checked, he was dating Thea, so he should still be someplace in the city, right?

 

And now, Laurel:

 

I didn't think Arrow could do it. But amazingly, in a season that has featured Laurel digging up her sister's corpse, Laurel letting her zombie sister run around the city killing people, and Laurel telling her sister to by all means take off with a questionable guy who claims to be time travelling even if this means never seeing her family again (ok, technically that was on another show, but still) they managed to take Laurel to new all time lows.

 

The sole bright spot: at least Arrow wasn't cruel enough to force Laurel to give Oliver and Felicity love advice during all of this. And also, Katie Cassidy looked great - that was a nice jacket on her in the first court scene.

 

But then there was everything else:

 

Number of times Laurel fails as an attorney: a jaw dropping 16, and that's with me missing several: 1) choosing to charge Darhk only for a kidnapping with no witnesses, while failing to also charge him with assault and kidnapping at an event with multiple witnesses, like, Laurel, prosecutors prosecute people for multiple crimes all at once, remember? It's quite common! You're a prosecutor! You should know this! 2) apparently failing to do the basic research that would have revealed that yes, Damien Darhk has an actual legal identity that is not Damien Darhk, 3) going to a hearing without evidence, 4) somehow failing to gather any forensic evidence in the first place like, say, I don't know, the presence of Damien Darhk's fingerprints in the same house with the fingerprints of a smaller person, presumably a child. It's not hard, Laurel!  5) needing non-lawyers Thea and Felicity to remind her that Darhk has committed multiple crimes, not just child kidnapping, 6) needing non-lawyers Thea and Felicity to point out that there are other witnesses to Damien's crimes, like, seriously, how bad of a lawyer are you, Laurel, 7) allowing Samantha and William to leave without getting their evidence at least videotaped, 8) failing to vet her witnesses for minor things like huge drug buys, like, thanks, Laurel, even the defense lawyers were aware of that one (sidenote: given that the defense guys knew, how exactly did Laurel not know? Doesn't Team Arrow tell her anything?) 9) needing to take advice from a bunch of non-lawyers again, 10) because of this need, distracting the non-lawyers from the important work of catching Cupid, 11) not even considering, for one moment, that her one witness who said "Fifth Amendment!" might actually be entirely serious about this, because said witness was working for Darhk all along and knew that any testimony would  be self-incriminating 12) throwing potential prosecution witnesses into prison well before the actual trial, like, wait, WHAT? How is throwing people in jail because they were unlucky enough to attend an Oliver Queen party and get attacked and aren't really excited about reliving that experience in the prelim hearing at all helpful? 13) doing so terribly at a mere hearing that she needed to put her own father on the witness stand, 14) needing Quentin to point out that he's her only hope, 15) as the judge pointed out, managing to win a hearing only by forcing her father to testify and thus lose his job, like THANKS LAUREL. 16) failing to use her influence as an ADA to keep her father employed by pointing out that he was helping her as a material witness or whatever.

 

I mean, this is basic, Laurel. This isn't some quick prosecution case: this is going against a wealthy, powerful guy who until very recently was the head of an organization powerful enough to kidnap a CEO and the bodyguard and sister of a mayoral candidate in plain view of everyone, shoot people up on a public beach, and arrange to have Felicity shot through a limo. You don't take this sort of guy to court without solid evidence. Darhk was in the house when the kid was found!  Pull out cops that can testify to this! Look for fingerprints! Take pictures of the toys in the house! Get your witnesses on the record - even if they later change their testimony on the stand, the earlier testimony might still be believed (things you learn from Making a Murderer).  Ask for a delay in the hearing!  And even in a show that seemingly can't really hire day players or guest stars right now, don't put a vigilante who recently participated in a major drug deal up on your witness stand.

 

And remember, Laurel, in the end, they got Al Capone on taxation charges. Hit the bad guy with every charge you've got. Otherwise - well, we saw otherwise.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante: Zero, because she didn't do any vigilanting in this episode, presumably so she could focus on prepping her case instead.

 

That went well.

 

Number of times Laurel failed because she wasn't vigilanting (highly unfair new category, especially since Laurel fails as a vigilante far more often than she succeeds, so the team probably did better without her): Two: 1) Cupid got away in the first place partly because (in my headcanon) Oliver was distracted by his breakup with Felicity but also because Oliver had to both take down Cupid and rescue the hostages, and with Laurel busy badly preparing for her legal case, he had to do it alone, 2) similarly, forcing the rest of Team Arrow to jump Cupid because a preparing for her legal case Laurel couldn't help look for and disarm the bomb.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being, two: 1) more implied than stated, but the fact that none of the presumed other city officials present at Oliver's mayoral holiday party thing would agree to be a witness at her request, which does not suggest that she's done a great job of working with them or befriending them, 2) grinning when the judge announced that she found Quentin's testimony credible, which meant he was going to be suspended from the force and possibly up on charges, like, bad enough that you needed your father to incriminate himself to win a mere hearing, Laurel, but now you're grinning at the thought that he's probably going to be unemployed for the near future, and that's if he's lucky.

 

Arrow had a germ - just a germ - of a really good story for Laurel here - a story of having to balance out her vigilantism and her legal skills. It actually would have made more sense (and been more interesting) if we'd seen Laurel fail in the courtroom in part because she was running around trying to catch Cupid - and a nice callback to season 2, where Oliver was struggling to balance CEO and vigilante life. We haven't really seen Laurel do that, and in an episode dealing with the prices that Quentin and to a lesser extent Diggle have to pay for compromising their original jobs and morality, it could have been fascinating. Unfortunately we got yet another episode of Laurel being completely inept in a courtroom, something we've seen plenty of before. We don't need to see it again.

 

Not to mention this is yet another episode where a number of other characters - Oliver, Felicity, Quentin, Damien, Cupid, Reiter and the dead guy in flashback cave - faced major consequences for their choices and actions. That poor couple in the first few minutes even died for doing nothing other than falling in love (how sad) and the second couple had to endure a pretty terrifying kidnapping. Meanwhile, who faced the consequences of Laurel's inept lawyering? Her own father, Diggle, and Frank Pike (who didn't look happy about having to suspend Pike). Laurel got her first courtroom win in more than a season - one of only two that we've seen on screen.

 

It fits the pattern: Laurel's gone through hell, certainly, but usually as a result of the choices of other people, not her own. Meanwhile, other people in these same episodes tend to face extreme consequences for their actions. When Laurel screws up, other people suffer. In that sense, this was almost the quintessential Laurel episode.

[Lady Calypso]

I think that this episode was pretty solid, especially after the last episode. It really could have been worse, and I was expecting worse. But, as always, there are holes in the episode.

 

Ok, so let's take a look at Felicity/Oliver first and why she left the team. It wasn't written in a way that completely gives the viewer an understanding on Felicity did this. They go from her promising to stay on the team, to saying those things to Cupid, to just leaving the team altogether. But it seemed like she was having a hard time being around Oliver. Him opening up to her like that in her vows seemed to make it harder for Felicity to move on, and I think she realized that. Seeing Oliver think that they had a chance of getting back together, with Oliver outright stating that he thinks they'll get through this, undermines Felicity as a person a little bit. Now, I do think that it didn't help matters that Diggle continued to encourage Oliver and telling him that thinks would work out gave him false hope. Oliver thinking that all Felicity would need is time doesn't fix the problem. I put blame on Diggle for that one, especially when he knows Oliver is a manchild who doesn't know how to deal with situations like this. Although, to be fair, Diggle, Thea and Laurel didn't know the whole context, just that they broke it off because of the kid (seemingly). If Oliver or Felicity had sat them down to explain, maybe Diggle wouldn't have been captain of the Team Olicity ship. 

 

Obviously Felicity won't be gone for long, but showing Oliver that things aren't alright might give him the push he needs to fight for her, just like he fights for his city. And that, I think, might be the goal of all of this? If the show is smart, that is. It just doesn't fit with Felicity right now, that she would choose to leave the team that put her on a new path to something great. It's also getting frustrating to watch people continue to leave the team for only a couple of episodes. Felicity has done it more than once, Diggle's done it, and Oliver's even done it. Thea and Laurel have barely been on the team long enough, but they've also gotten close. 

 

But other than that? All Olicity scenes were well done. Stephen Amell always breaks my heart during these emotional episodes. It makes me feel bad for Oliver, and at least they left a wide opening on them reconciling. 

 

I really did like Cupid in this episode. She's an entertaining villain, at the very least. 

 

That courtroom subplot was so stupid, and not because of KC this time (not entirely, anyway). Horrible writing. I've seen a lot of courtroom scenes on television, most recently being Daredevil, and the writing for this was just so bad. Even I know a lot of what was brought up wouldn't make for a strong case. The Diggle thing seemed very much contrived. I know I'm not a lawyer, but it just seemed badly written.

 

I did like Laurel's scenes with her father. They worked well, and I'm glad Laurel did end up winning. That other lawyer guy was just dumb, anyway. 

 

This episode seemed rather short for some reason... 

 

(Psst, since sarcasm and subtly can't be detected online sadly, I'm talking about how I fast forwarded through the flashbacks....)

 

And finally, I think my favourite moment of the series is now Oliver's line of "I don't want to let you go" to Felicity without even looking at her. A very, very powerful moment and easily a heartbreaking line delivered perfectly from SA. 

[EmeraldArcher]

I'm kinda enjoying the divide about Felicity's decision to leave because it boils down to this:

People who are glad she left feel like she's strong, ethical, and deserves to do what makes her happy.

People who don't think it's in character for her to leave feel like she's strong, ethical, and deserves to stay on the team because it makes her happy.

So, we're disagreeing on the action, but not really who she is fundamentally, I think. That's probably a win for all of us, especially as we know it's not likely to last very long.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Very random question, but humor me. Does anyone have a screen cap of the newspaper announcement of Olicity's engagement? I am honestly curious as to what it says (and I am totally that person who usually has to pause shows and films to read every little thing that the prop department writes in things).

I think they delegated the creation of the wedding announcement to interns, because the newspaper wedding announcement is chock full of mistakes (and that's in just the portion of the article details that can be seen) -- from repeated sentences, to sentences missing key words, to fake surname placeholders, to details of the actual wedding (including officiants names), and references to the groom's parents (who are both dead) hosting the rehearsal dinner to Ollie graduating with a MBA and a bachelor's degree in astrophysics (seriously ?).

Felicity Smoak and Oliver Queen announce engagement

Moira Dearden Queen and Robert Queen of Star City. The future bride graduated from Starling University with a bachelor of arts degree and a masters degree in computer science. She is head of Palmer Technologies Inc. The groom has an MBA from Starling University and a B. Sc. in astrophysics from Star City University. A September wedding is planned and the couple will live in their hometown city.

The future bride graduated from Starling University with a bachelor of arts degree and a masters degree in computer science. The groom has a from Starling University and a B.Sc. in astrophysics from Star City University.

A September 2016 wedding is planned and the couple will make their home in Star City. The ceremony was officiated by the Reverend John Keller, who was assisted by the Reverend Alfred Lastname, cousin-in-law of the groom. Music for the ceremony was provided by the Fine Arts String Ensemble. Ceremony readings were performed by Mr. Chris Lastname, uncle of the bride, and Mr. William Lastname, uncle of the groom. The bride's parents hosted a seated dinner and reception at Raveneaux Country Club. On the eve of the wedding, the groom's parents hosted a rehearsal dinner at Steamboat

 

I'll see if I can get the screencap posted tomorrow.

Edited March 24, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[statsgirl]

The groom has relatives?  The bride has an uncle?  Does MIT even give out BAs, as opposed to BScs? As for the BSc in astrophysics, did they think she was marrying Ray?

 

I'm going to assume that Felicity's wedding dress fit so badly because she got it at the last minute and they didn't have time to tailor it to her.  At least it's an excuse.

 

I still want something from Thea to acknowledge that she gave Oliver the wrong advice when she told him he was right to lie to Felicity.

 

Boo on Diggle for telling Oliver it's because the knowledge he had a kid is a big thing (no, Diggle, it was THE LYiNG) and that Felicity will get over it. Although I bet Diggle, Thea and Laurel all want the tension over with as soon as possible.

But not even she could save the odd twist in logic at the end... like I agree, Oliver's not a team player. That's the big issue. But it's not necessarily him being a vigilante... it's just HIM and his need to always do his own thing and not think of including others (like all of Season 3). So I was annoyed the writers brought the vigilante aspect into it (although him leaving Diggle to.... watch Speedy? was a great example of how ridiculous that is).

Maybe she thought that if he wanted to, he could change  But now she realized that this is who he will always be and she can't live with it, that he will always hide things from her.

 

I read a comment that she shouldn't have broken up with him because he only lied, he didn't cheat on her. (damning with faint praise.)  I guess for Felicity, not being able to trust him is not being able to trust him.

 

I think it'll be interesting, because he's generally been pretty good about sharing with her when they're on good terms, all things considered. He moves at a snail's pace, but he's opened up to her about the island, about things he's afraid of. So really doing those things shouldn't sway her, because he's done them before. We'll see.

He's good at sharing in the simple times. But when things get complicated or tough, he goes it alone. That's what she can't live with.

 

So I guess it's going to have to be a situation where he gets in trouble and has to make a hard decision, the kind he would have done alone before but now he includes her to show he can change.

 

2. "Olicity" making an actual appearance on the show. I cracked up. Not to mention all the tabloid paparazzi hanging around.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if they were the real Vancouver paparazzi?

Edited March 24, 2016 by statsgirl

[Kymmi]

I loved this episode, despite any and all problems I had with it.  

 

I don't love that Oliver was the one to suggest offering himself and Felicity as bait - especially when she was against it.  It feels OOC to me given his crazy protective streak.

 

Felicity was a bit mean to Oliver, to TBH he kind of deserved it.  I think it's her defense mechanism, and I kind of wish they would have pointed out how ALL of Team Arrow was Team Oliver.  That's enough to push a person out, and I wish they would have shown that process.

 

The wedding vows - all the angst and feelings that were missing from last season.  Too late?  Doubt it, but they probably lost some people along the way.

 

Flashbacks - mildly more interesting, but Poppy!Acting is too much to bear.  

 

Cupid crushing it as per usual.  Still can't stop thinking of her as Laurel.

 

Laurel - if ONLY there was a real honest to God lawyer on the writing staff.  Oh, wait.

 

Diggle - don't freaking DRIVE with that horrible helmet on, it's a safety hazard.  The slits for vision are ridiculous.

 

I wish Roy were here.  He's be on Felicity's side.  :-(  

[way2interested]

I think they delegated the creation of the wedding announcement to interns, because the newspaper wedding announcement is chock full of mistakes (and that's in just the portion of the article details that can be seen) -- from repeated sentences, to sentences missing key words, to fake surname placeholders, to details of the actual wedding (including officiants names), and references to the groom's parents (who are both dead) hosting the rehearsal dinner to Ollie graduating with a MBA and a bachelor's degree in astrophysics (seriously ?).

I'll see if I can get the screencap posted tomorrow.

Ha, thanks! I had a feeling it was just gibberish, since a lot of prop stuff does tend to end up gibberish, but it's still interesting to me that someone has to sit down and write this stuff out.

[Scribbles]

I just wanted to take a sec and comment on SA's acting choice.  Some have called it flat or tired, and I think that is purposeful.  This is a guy who who has been happy for the first time in eight years facing the loss of that happiness.  The term wrecked comes to mind.  Between moments of heartfelt expression, he is lost, weary and empty.  Flat affect and exhaustion seems about right between those moments when he is compelled to share more. 

 

 

 

An aside:  Absent leaked photos and such, this episode would have heavy handed a threat to Quentin. 

[quarks]

In the first episode of season 4, we learn that Felicity has been helping Team Arrow behind Oliver's back when they were supposed to be living normal lives. Why was it okay for her to do that, but Oliver not telling her about his son is unforgivable?

 

 

I don't think it was ok. But - as I noted in the last episode discussion - in many ways, Oliver's reaction to that situation makes his lie to Felicity all that much worse.  After all, Oliver told her that he didn't care that Felicity lied: what he cared about was that he thought they were doing things together, as a team, and that they were all in with each other.  Finding out that they weren't shook him up so much that he decided not to propose after all.

 

And yet, just a few months later, after telling Felicity this, Oliver chose not to tell her something, even though by that point, Felicity thought they were doing things together, as a team. That was even specifically mentioned in episode 409; as soon as Oliver heard Felicity say that they would be doing things together, and that was the entire point of marriage, he proposed.

 

So basically, when Oliver didn't get openness from Felicity, he decided not to propose. When Felicity didn't get openness from Oliver, she called off the wedding. They're not too far off, though I'd say that secretly helping your friends fight crime is less terrible than not telling the woman you're about to marry that she's going to have a stepson, and far less terrible than not telling everyone on Team Arrow, absolutely including Laurel, by the way, about William the second Oliver found out that Malcolm, someone with every reason to hate him and want him to make him suffer, knew about William. At that point, it's not about Oliver and Felicity's relationship, or Laurel's feelings, it's about the safety of the kid. Both Team Arrow and Team Flash needed to know about the kid since he was a potential target. As we saw in the very next episode.

Edited March 24, 2016 by quarks

[Artsda]

That engagement article they didn't put any effort into at all, the whole entire thing is wrong. 

 

I did love the news headline about the wedding using "Olicity." 

 

Liked Felicity's strength in not caving and being still angry. Oliver treated her like nothing, lied to her over the most important thing while he knew half a dozen other people knew already. He's right, at this point he doesn't deserve her trust. Hopefully he can gain it back but I don't blame her for being done with him.  SA did great in showing Oliver's sadness and being down. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by Artsda

[ComicFan777]

Yes, Felicity found her purpose in saving the city and it is something that she loves doing. but there is more than one way to do it.  Judging from her coming into the lair when she thought no one would be there and pulling stuff off the Arrow computers, I think she found another way to help save the city and at the same time, get the space she needs to heal.   

Edited March 24, 2016 by ComicFan777

[BkWurm1]

First impressions before I’ve read anything. 

 

 

Tough episode.  If I wasn’t a seasoned TV veteran, I think I would think they this was the end. *** Instead I’m annoyed that it’s Felicity that is going to be the one learning to be ok with being lied to sometimes. *** ( see below edit)I just wish that they could differentiate between lies that are actually there to protect someone and ones that are beyond foolish since he never had to lie to Felicity about William. 

 

I wasn’t surprised that what Felicity said to Cupid wasn’t something she thought still applied to them for their future.  There was just a bit too much anger and composure mixed into the delivery.  She believed it, but she’s a bit too in pain (and also numbed by her resolve) to truly feel it or believe it can be saved. 

 

I really hate them being apart already and hate that she brought up that stupid trick arrow as for why she isn’t needed.  I could buy that she has everything automated now but just acknowledging it happened and Oliver getting credit for it irks me more than I can say.  I do think she made the right choice to stop right now.  The moment they all piled on her about the wedding, that was really sad.  No one seems to understand that what Oliver did was a big freaking deal and nobody seemed to believe that Felicity was serious in the long term.  Well, now they know. 

 

I think this is an episode that goes on my can’t watch again until everything is all better list.  It hurts. 

 

You know what else hurts?  That stupid ass hearing.  So they found dirt on Diggle and Thea, but hello, CEO of Palmer Tech!!!  Could you have at least made up some dumb reason why she couldn’t testify rather than jump right to Quentin?

 

I can see the foundation for their reunion already being laid, Oliver is going to prove her wrong by trusting her instead of lying and going it alone.

 

Edited to because reading this made me a lot less depressed.

 

*** Ok, I like this a LOT better than where my mind first went.  Apparently I didn't escape that place of bad influence without something said getting into my stupid head.  Like this MUCH better. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Athena5217]

I don't think it's fair to paint them as equal lies. Felicity lied about helping Team Arrow. Oliver lied about having a child. It's completely different, especially when he was about to marry her and start a fully committed life together. I really don't think there's any comparison.

They aren't equal lies. Oliver lied because he was given an ultimatum to do so or never see his child. Felicity lied because she did want to admit to Oliver that the perfect normal life she thought she wanted wasn't the life she wanted after all.

I just hate the way everything is so all or nothing on TV. I guess Oliver and Felicity going to therapy to work on their trust issues doesn't make for good TV, but it's what you do when you love someone. Also, I think all the heroes and meta humans in Star City and Central City could benefit from a therapist that is a recurring cameo with comic possibilities like Jane Curtin.

[catrox14]

Ha, thanks! I had a feeling it was just gibberish, since a lot of prop stuff does tend to end up gibberish, but it's still interesting to me that someone has to sit down and write this stuff out.

 

Unless it's a wedding announcement from the alternate timeline and Oliver really did go to college...

[La Dee Da]

Very random question, but humor me. Does anyone have a screen cap of the newspaper announcement of Olicity's engagement? I am honestly curious as to what it says (and I am totally that person who usually has to pause shows and films to read every little thing that the prop department writes in things).

In addition to the biographical errors pointed out above, no mention of the small matter of the limo shooting 5 seconds after the engagement.

I thought this was a good episode - those vows, man. I'm still reconstituting from the puddle I melted into. As emotional as it was, Oliver and Felicity are miles ahead of where they were last year - there was good vocalizing of feelings and expectations. But still a long ways to go to a resolution. I think the episode did good work to set up how the resolution has to happen - Oliver needs to start fully let people in, as a natural impulse, and Felicity needs to decide if she can bend and accept his progress as something she wants to be a part of. How the plot aligns for this to happen is beyond me, however.

I wish they had done more with the court scenes - I love when this type of show brings in "if this happened in real life" elements. Quentin's testimony was a highlight. Being a HIVE lawyer must be fun - but the severance package must be murder. ;)

Easy payday for Neil McDonough! I'm guessing the ring will have him magically powered up in time for an end of season showdown. And that Oliver will conveniently remember the magic totem from the flashback in time to use it to defeat him.

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante: Zero, because she didn't do any vigilanting in this episode, presumably so she could focus on prepping her case instead.

That went well.

With all due deference, I'm going to go with one fail - she could've taken care of the over-friendly giraffe. Clearly a meta-human on the lam from Central City!

[lemotomato]

Two things about Felicity quitting the team I haven't seen pointed out yet:

 

1) I don't think she's leaving the team and the city high and dry as some suggest because of the line Thea had at the beginning of the episode: when Felicity asks how the patrol went, Thea says that it was really quiet and that it has been the most peaceful Star City has been in 4 years. So maybe with the system she set up she thinks they really don't need her anymore for routine patrolling and run-of-the-mill stuff.

 

2) I think Felicity quit the team for Oliver's sake as much as for her own. She even said their current situation wasn't fair to either other them. She believes that there's no way to fix their relationship, while Oliver still has hope. As long as she's working with them night after night, it's not a clean break. Which isn't fair to Oliver, because he'll keep looking for hints that she's changing her mind, and not fair to Felicity, who has to put up a defensive front to hide how much she's hurting too. 

 

As for the rest:
- The vows were beautiful, even though Felicity took hers back at the end. What I'm gathering from the fact that we basically saw them go through a traditional ceremony, the actual Olicity wedding, when it happens, will be totally unconventional, maybe happening mid-battle like some have suggested.

 

- I honestly don't know what to make of the breakup, except that all of the Olicity scenes were excruciatingly painful and sad, and I have no idea how they're going to fix this.

 

- I'm a little bit surprised they made Laurel look so incompetent prosecuting DD. For some reason I thought them bringing her back into the courtroom was going to be one of those "Look! We haven't forgotten she's a lawyer!" positive things.

 

- Oliver should really stop listening to Digg's relationship advice, because it has never worked out for him. With the exception of 406 (which was more of a pep talk than relationship advice, actually) when he does what Digg suggested he got blown up on a date, watched Felicity kiss Ray, and what happened tonight.

 

- I chuckled at the potshots taken at the paparazzi, especially considering how a pap spoiled the wedding that was being shot for this very episode.

 

- Ridiculous nitpicky detail that annoyed me about the Olicity engagement newspaper clipping? The way they did the headline, putting "Oliver" and "Queen" on different lines. Didn't anyone in the props department take highschool journalism or yearbook? That's a huge no no.

Edited March 24, 2016 by lemotomato

[BkWurm1]

I disagree with you a little bit here - I think that permanently leaving the team and the mission that she has repeatedly said made her more than she thought she could be and gave her life purpose because of a breakup is really OOC. I know that she won't be gone forever, but she intended to be. Doesn't ring true for me. 

She also doesn't want to let go of Oliver, but she feels she has to and being with him while letting him go was too hard.  I would have called it impossible. 

 

Going into this episode I didn't want Felicity to quit the team, but about half-way through I was ready for her to flip them all the bird and peace out. They were awful to her, especially Digg with all that, "she'll come around" crap.

[Edited by mod because how part of the fandom might hypothetically react to a plot point is fan talk.]

I'm glad she broke it off for good, but I was a little confused with her speech at the end. I was with her until she started talking about how the vigilante stuff factored in. Was she saying that him being the Arrow meant he'd always "go it alone" and that's why they couldn't be together? Cause that feels like it came out of nowhere and also makes no sense. Him lying had nothing to do with Arrow stuff.

I think she was saying two things, that the crazy life they lead creates impossible no win situations (like then being locked in a dungeon and letting them think he was letting Ra's kill them) where he has to lie thus it was a promise Oliver could never keep and also that Oliver's default setting is to go it alone.  Just in this episode she asked him to take back up to when he was going after Cupid in the warehouse.  He didn’t. Cupid escaped. I think the island is what shaped him, that the only one he really could rely on was himself and that he was the only one he was willing to risk.  I didn't see the island call back as a dig, just a statement of fact. 

 

 

 

 

 

GIFY GIFS...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Repost because need another hit of hurts so good. 

It was an ok episode but Cupid/Olicity should not have been the A-plot imo. We've spent all season with TA going up against Dhark and when they finally one up him they shove it to the background when it should've been the A-plot.

 

I often see the other side of the argument, like when Felicity and Oliver fighting were the A plot in 4-6 over getting into Sara's headspace after coming back to life. (I was happy with what I got, but I can understand the argument) but in this case after getting almost no emotional fallout from Oliver and Felicity in the last episode, yeah, this was IMO something that needed to be front and center and it also seems to be setting up the final emotional arc for the rest of the season, so that deserves attention to make that final payoff satisfying as well.  Technically Olicity angst was tied with the Cupid plot, but even the courtroom stuff and flashbacks seemed to have a lot more time devoted to them than a typical C and D storyline.  I thought it pretty balanced episode. 

[looptab]

 I expected to cringe a lot, but I expected it to be during the Cupid related scenes. Instead, it was for all the trial-related ones. I wouldn't consider this episode a win for Laurel. What I got from it is that she is very incompetent at her job, and that Darhk would be free if it wasn't for Quentin. When he told her he was proud of her, I was like "What for?!"

 

Nice of them to make up for the lousy break-up scene in 415 with a whole episode. Oliver/Felicity scenes were just great throughout. The last scene, he was so sure they were on their way back to each other, and then she pulled the rug out from under him. It hurt. But it needed to happen. I just cringed a bit 1)when Felicity started her speech to Cupid - I'm not very fond of speeches, but now I'm actually glad they decided to go with the fake wedding, because it gave at least a semi-valid context to have Olicity make big love declarations and grand speeches; 2)during some of Felicity jabs - not because she can't be snarky, but because awkward.

 

I don't  like Felicity leaving the team, but at the end of the day, I agree with anybody else that it had to happen in order for Oliver to understand that his actions have lasting consequences, and that he has to change his ways - though I also see the other side of the argument: what can he possibly do? They were working just fine before the BMD.

 

The flashbacks are so bad even Stephen's acting gets bad. 

 

The whole episode was soooo meta. Starting with the portmanteaus(sp?), Cupid's comments to them -"You give all of us hope"- and Oliver's vows -"Before I met you, I had a plan. I was supposed to be something else, and then you walked in and changed everything"-  Ha!

Edited March 24, 2016 by looptab

[apinknightmare]

She also doesn't want to let go of Oliver, but she feels she has to and being with him while letting him go was too hard.  I would have called it impossible. 

 

I get it. Still don't buy it, though. Believing that she'd leave on the spot like that requires me to suspend too much belief from what I know of her character. Given how much the mission meant to her, I don't think she would've ever taken a permanent break, and knowing how often that Oliver, Diggle, Thea, and Laurel's lives have actually been saved and catastrophe has been averted because of her extraordinary skills makes it difficult for me to believe that she'd tell Oliver he'd be fine without her because he was able to reroute some money once. Maybe we'll find out she's arranged for a replacement in Curtis (which would make me feel better about the whole thing) or something, IDK. It's not her responsibility to care for these people at the expense of ignoring her own well-being, and I'm not saying she should've stayed out of obligation, but it seems super OOC of her to just walk away like that (I think it would be in-character for her to do it in a rash decision because she was upset, but I don't think this was meant to be a rash decision). 

Edited March 24, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Password]

I think the one time SA was flat was at the end when Felicity was walking away. He plays off EBR better when he looks her in the eyes.

Maybe that was the point but it was the only flat point for me.

Other than that HUG FELICITY EVERYONE.

[thuganomics85]

Still digesting a lot of this.  If I looked past the entire reason it got to this point, I really enjoyed the episode.  I just still wished there was another conflict instead of "I lied to you because my baby mama told me not too, and I'm apparently terrified to go against her because, I don't know, she has spies or is a metahuman who can mind-read.  You never know!!!"

 

But looking past that, I liked that Oliver truly feels like shit for what he did and truly seems to want to fix it.  And I like that while Felicity clearly still loves him, she just can't.  And I hate to say it, but I agree with her.  While I truly believe Oliver was sincere, I really do think that this Oliver would fall back and regress into keeping secrets, the next time he feels "threaten."  That's just his thing, sadly.  Instead of trusting his friends and loved ones, he just has this nasty habit of pushing them away, and convincing himself he's "protecting them."  Maybe one day he'll move past it, but not right now.  I do hope it works out though.  Stephen Amell and Emily Bett Rickards were really great in this.

 

Cupid was a fun return, and Amy Gumenick is still perfectly cray-cray in this.  I miss Floyd too, so I feel you, Cupid!

 

The courtroom scenes just reminded me I need to finish up Daredevil.  At least Quentin took a stand, which was nice, even if he's suspended and continues to increase his chances of being in that grave.

 

Even without a line of dialogue, Neal McDonough still can be more compelling then gold old Matt Nable from last season, not even to mention Casper Crump over on Legends of Tomorrow.  I still wished Damien Dahrk would be a bit more of a threat, but Neal certainly was a great casting choice at least.

 

I did enjoy that Thea seems to have a slight obsession with celebrity couples.  It's nice to know there is still a young, normal twenty-something, when she isn't running around shooting people with arrows.

 

Felicity quits again, but I'm sure she'll be back.  If nothing else, I'm sure this whole grave thing will bring everyone who isn't in it together.

 

The flashbacks have now devolved into the lamest Indiana Jones rip-off ever.  Just how bad can they get?

[lemotomato]

The whole episode was soooo meta. Starting with the portmanteaus(sp?), Cupid's comments to them -"You give all of us hope"- and Oliver's vows -"Before I met you, I had a plan. I was supposed to be something else, and then you walked in and changed everything"-  Ha!

Looooved this meta comment. Especially considering how the Olicity breakup is fueling hopes for a Lauriver reunion. I guess some people missed the anvils.

[Password]

The only thing I didn't agree with Felicity was her saying the team don't need her. No honey they're all going to die without you. Seriously, everyone will die. I guess she was trying to comfort herself/convince herself about her decision but...yeah no they're going to die.

[Guest]

When Oliver went off to get Cupid without backup and Felicity pointedly said over comms, "Let them help you," I really think this highlighted her main issue. It's actually beyond his default of lying and more about not feeling like his true partner.

Like others have said, Oliver expected Felicity to depend on him and share with him but he didn't really do the same thing with her in return. Maybe in small ways, which is fine, but when you lie to your fiancé about having a kid and then decide to send that kid away without discussing it with your partner first, at least to get another perspective on it, then there is definitely a problem. I'm not surprised Felicity couldn't take him back yet.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

They aren't equal lies. Oliver lied because he was given an ultimatum to do so or never see his child. Felicity lied because she did want to admit to Oliver that the perfect normal life she thought she wanted wasn't the life she wanted after all.

Well, exactly. Kind of. Not sure I agree with your reasons for why Felicity lied but...

Sorry but in your previous post you asked why was it okay for Felicity to lie about working with Team Arrow but Oliver lying about his kid was unforgivable, which to me suggested that you saw them as equal lies. That's why I said they weren't because they're two totally different things.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Guest

[BkWurm1]

Very random question, but humor me. Does anyone have a screen cap of the newspaper announcement of Olicity's engagement? I am honestly curious as to what it says (and I am totally that person who usually has to pause shows and films to read every little thing that the prop department writes in things).

 

I think the goobledegook that served as place holder was the same stuff they used in the other mocked up clippings on Cupid's love wall.  I think beyond the first couple line, it wasn't about Oliver or Felicity but Thea's other power couples. 

 

 

4. Felicity almost talking Cupid out of it.  Also, coming up with an on the spot, totally truthful and yet uncommitted vow earlier. 

 

 

 

10. Amazed at how sinister Damien Darhk can be even when he's not saying anything. Still my favorite Arrow villain ever.

 

11. The multiple shoutbacks to previous continuity and speeches.

 

[snip]

 

8. And also not mixed on my hope that this is the low point for Oliver/Felicity and we can now start heading back to the fun banter that was so good at the beginning of the season and then just stay there. Please, Arrow? After Damien Darhk's hearing this episode, you owe me.

 

[snip]

 

12. And speaking of that wedding, a) why didn't Felicity realize earlier she would need fake vows? They were faking a wedding, and b) what would have happened if Cupid had come in just a couple minutes later? Would the judge/pastor have just said, "I now pronounce you...."

 

On Felicity almost talking Cupid out of it.  It's my head canon that what Felicity said to Cupid were the vows she originally intended to say to Oliver.   

 

On DD silence - he's so good that until you posted it, I didn't realize he never spoke.

 

All the shout outs to continuity made me think that these new writers are actually fans of the show and pay attention like fans do.  Will have to look for their names in the future. 

 

And yes please let this be the low point for Olicity.  I am very grateful for the title of next week's episode. 

 

Legally as long as they didn't turn in a signed marriage license they wouldn't be married even if the ceremony had been completed.  But this is Arrow and legal means nothing, for all we know the very helpful lady will turn something in for them and send them a note later telling them the happy news. 

 

 

An aside:  Absent leaked photos and such, this episode would have heavy handed a threat to Quentin. 

 

Not to mention that I can see how many might think this would be the episode that meant the start of the return to Laurel and Oliver and adhering to certain comic storylines.    (Though after Oliver calls Felicity his "always" that would be a tough sell.  )

They aren't equal lies. Oliver lied because he was given an ultimatum to do so or never see his child. Felicity lied because she did want to admit to Oliver that the perfect normal life she thought she wanted wasn't the life she wanted after all.

 

Also Oliver never had to lie to Felicity.  All he had to do was lie to Samantha about agreeing not to tell Felicity and then tell Felicity.  Not like she can't keep a secret.  Whole problem solved.  At this point I feel like I'm the one that needs therapy for that terrible plot line. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by BkWurm1

[foreverevolving]

Did anything trend tonight?

[Guest]

Did anything trend tonight?

Arrow trended and for quite a while, too. Not sure about anything else.

[lemotomato]

I randomly came across this screencap:

Is the white-haired lady on the left the same extra that walked by Oliver and Felicity in 407 after the "dressing in leather and tying people up" convo?

[looptab]

Yes, she is, haha.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I understand Felicity leaving the team. Putting myself in her shoes last episode I would have grabbed my stuff and gone to CC to help team Flash. Also now Darhk is in jail, everything seems quiet so it's not like she is leaving the city in Darhk's hands or anything like that. She has no reason to think they won't be fine without her.

The legal part of the episode was funny because it was so bad, LOL. I also didn't like Felicity and Cupid's dialogue. It made me a bit uncomfortable..

I wish Dig would remember how pissed he was when Oliver left him in the dark last season..but it seems that's long forgotten.

I really liked the rest of the episode though. Some of Felicity's snarky lines were awesome, like her "vows" haha. Also EBR's delivery was great.

Oliver's vows were beautiful, he made me emotional..now if only he would practice what he said! Sigh.

I also really liked the final scene between Oliver and Felicity..the dialogue and the acting were great. Also it's been a week, it's obvious Felicity can't take Oliver's word for it and believe he is never going to lie to her again now. He needs to prove himself and I hope he will and she won't just "come around" like Dig repetitively said.

PB is such a good actor, I liked Quentin a lot tonight.

So is Darhk's ring the real source of his powers or what was that about?

[kes0704]

I have to say I actually liked this episode more than I thought I would. I don't normally cry over TV shows but I actually did get a little bit teary in the final O/F scene because I felt so sad for both of them.

From the start of the contrived BM drama and ridiculous lie to moment the lie was revealed I've wondered how Oliver and Felicity would be able to exist in the same space and continue to work so closely following a broken engagement. But, while I don't like the idea of Felicity leaving the team (even for a short time) as a way of dealing with her broken heart, I'm also kind of okay with it. Mainly because it feels like the actions of a real person with human feelings. It felt authentic to the story and we don't always see that with Arrow as they rush on by towards the next plot point.

Cupid was good as the VOTW and I didn't even mind lawyer Laurel, though I wish they had written her as appearing to be a little more competent at her job. The only low points continue to be the flashbacks...I still don't know what their purpose is and I don't really care.

[Midnight Lullaby]

In the first episode of season 4, we learn that Felicity has been helping Team Arrow behind Oliver's back when they were supposed to be living normal lives. Why was it okay for her to do that, but Oliver not telling her about his son is unforgivable?

I feel like Felicity is holding Oliver to a higher standard than she holds herself. In this episode, she says she'll still be part of the team, then leaves it at the end. That doesn't seem fair to Team Arrow. The Felicity I know and love doesn't abandon her friends when they need her help to save the city, mankind or puppies.

Although I can agree in principle about Oliver being wrong not to tell Felicity about his son, the whole storyline was so ridiculous that I can't empathize with Felicity. Months later, I still snort at the idea that a woman would actually tell the father of her child, "Yes, you can see your son, but only if you never tell anyone, including his aunt and your future wife about him." That crap doesn't even happen on Maury Povich.

You can't compare Felicity helping the team (I wouldn't have faulted Oliver for being upset/angry btw) and Oliver keeping his son a secret. He was basically planning to marry Felicity and have a secret family in another city. I think that would make anyone reconsider getting married. Also it seems the lie it's more a problem for the viewers because the show made the problem about Oliver repetitively not including Felicity in his decisions and choosing to lie and be alone instead of opening up to her and the team. Felicity doesn't want to be married to someone who doesn't see her as a partner. It isn't a matter of forgiving him for lying but of her trusting him to want to share his life with her going forward.

[looptab]

I can't believe Thea and Felicity actually talked to each other! Felicity Scissorhands! And then Thea went to help her with the dress!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I loved that Thea couldn't believe no one else knew about the celebrity couples.

 

I'm fine with Felicity leaving because she just made a really difficult decision to end one of the most important relationships in her life, not because she stopped loving him but because she realized that she can't be with someone who won't let her in 100%. Having to see him every night would just be salt in the wound. She needs time to let her heart heal before she can handle working with Oliver on a daily basis. That's not selfish. That's making sure that she has her head on straight so that she can work with Team Arrow to the best of her ability (and let's be honest - Felicity making snarky comments at Oliver during missions is not good for team morale).

 

And that's all before you take into account Diggle insisting to Oliver that she'll come around or everyone just deciding FOR her that yes, pretending to marry the guy she just broke up with is the best plan to capture Cupid.

 

ITA that the logistics of the plan (a real officiant, no police, etc) was just plain stupid too.

 

I have not missed Laurel's terribly lawyering AT ALL.

 

For the record, I have never heard of wedding dress storage, but I definitely wouldn't pay someone to just stick my dress in a warehouse with nothing but a plastic bag to protect it. You're better off just hanging it in your closet than in that unorganized warehouse.

 

Best/worst thing about the recent flashbacks: Oliver no longer has the crazy flashback wigs. Good because duh. Bad because at least during the flashbacks I used to be able to amuse myself by laughing at his ridiculous hair. Now I have nothing to do during the flashbacks but roll my eyes.

 

Let me see if I have the timeline correct:

(1) Felicity breaks up with Oliver at the end of the previous episode

(2) At the beginning of this episode, they will haven't told Team Arrow about the breakup but Felicity has already packed and Oliver has already hired a moving company

(3) Team Arrow is informed of the breakup

(4) Cupid finds out that Oliver and Felicity broke up so she removes them from her celebrity couple hit list

 

In other words, they didn't tell anyone about their breakup and then suddenly everyone knew? Did they put out a press release or something?

 

ETA: thanks to Felicity's parting words, I have had this song stuck in my head!

Edited March 24, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[apinknightmare]

I totally missed this last night, but I love Thea's distressed "Allibert," when Felicity told the team that another Star City celebrity couple - Allison and Robert - had been kidnapped by Cupid. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

Couple of things I forgot, I actually really enjoyed Thea in this episode.  I liked the fact that she's totally into gossip mags and couldn't understand why know one else knew these couples and their "shipper names".

 

I also thought the new writers did a really good job of capturing the characters and throwing out a ton of in character and related callbacks to previous episodes, guess they actually did their homework.

 

Final thought, I think there was a time-jump between 415/416 although I have no idea how much.  We know that Felicity has been going to Physical Therapy with Paul and that she's been packing up the Loft to move out.  However, they apparently haven't talked much about their relationship status, nor have they actually shared that information with the Team.  

[AyChihuahua]

Very random question, but humor me. Does anyone have a screen cap of the newspaper announcement of Olicity's engagement? I am honestly curious as to what it says (and I am totally that person who usually has to pause shows and films to read every little thing that the prop department writes in things).

A kid I babysat years ago did those kinds of visuals on Veronica Mars. When he realized I was a huge fan of VM, he used my name a couple times. On the main VM wiki, I'm a suspect in the bus bombing, bc he did a writeup using my name for a background article about a military bomb disposal person. He also used my name for a chauffeur sign. It was AWESOME.

[calliope1975]

It also links back to Dig's comments that OQ does not know how to love, which I thought was a low blow in 401. But if having OQ grow up and learn how to fully love was part of their agenda in s4, then it makes sense that even if it was really cruel they would lay the groundwork for their mission in 401. And having Dig who has always been his mentor be the one to drop the line makes sense.

 

I've also been wondering lately if what they're doing with Oliver would tie back to what Dig said in 401. At the time, I thought it was cruel, and still do actually, but could TPTB have been laying groundwork? My experience with TPTB says no, but I've been wrong before. For the record, I don't think Oliver has a problem with love; he has a problem with trust. Combined with an upbringing where he basically never had any consequences. 

[AyChihuahua]

In the first episode of season 4, we learn that Felicity has been helping Team Arrow behind Oliver's back when they were supposed to be living normal lives. Why was it okay for her to do that, but Oliver not telling her about his son is unforgivable?

I feel like Felicity is holding Oliver to a higher standard than she holds herself. In this episode, she says she'll still be part of the team, then leaves it at the end. That doesn't seem fair to Team Arrow. The Felicity I know and love doesn't abandon her friends when they need her help to save the city, mankind or puppies.

Because telling white lies that resulted in, at worst, a missed vacay boat trip, to keep his sister, their best friend, their other friend, and their CITY safe, is in no way equal to making a person a step-parent without that person's knowledge or consent. Not all lies are equal, like AT ALL.

 

Every single person who performs a life-saving job, from Navy SEALs to firemen, are allowed to take leave and even quit. The best trauma surgeons in the world, who save lives on a daily basis, are allowed to take time for themselves and to quit. Everyone on TA is there voluntarily and they all have the right to quit at any time, for any reason. For once Felicity is taking care of herself first. She's spent the last four years taking care of Oliver, the team, and the city, and now she's going to take a few weeks off. After FOUR YEARS. It's absolutely and totally reasonable on her part.

[Guest]

I still don't like that Felicity left the team (especially because it's a way to insert Curtis in her role and how about no) but I'm coming round to this being the best for her right now and hopefully it won't last longer than an episode.

Also I love even more that she stood her ground when I think about how in previous relationships Oliver was able to just apologize and everything went his way. Laurel just turned a blind eye to his cheating and so he kept doing it and he really never learned. So Felicity is right not to accept things without some actual action/proof that he can let her in. This is good for Oliver too.

[Primetimer]

Okay, so it's five weeks late. The presence of Cupid still makes this a Valentine's episode. Deal with it.

Read the story

[blixie]

 

what can he possibly do?

I think there are many things he can do, and will do, I definitely think sharing the journal with Felicity is big thing, because while he's opened up to her about the island, he's by no means revealed it all, and that's where the REAL vulnerability lies, in someone knowing everything, and having no where to hide, no secrets to keep, or reveal. Especially since he believes those years were the "worst" of him, and the reason he deserves to go it alone and live in the grimdark. And while she understands, until she knows it in his personal narrative as it happened I kind of don't think she really UNDERSTANDS. Which does not mean she needs to accept his lying ass LIAR face, but it does mean that if she loves him, and wants to be with him, and work on the team with him it will always be a struggle for him, because what he went through made him the man she loves.

 

I also wonder if this is building up to him revealing to the world he's Green Arrow, there is no better way to say I'm done with lies full stop, than to own his alter ego. then NOBODY on Team Arrow has to lie, no one is compromised...ethically at least. 

 

Of course he has to put his total trust/faith in her on something mission related too, that despite her comments here, does require her specific expertise. I'm not a TV writer but I'm sure they can come up with some situation that allows him to demonstrate that to her, taken together with the personal demonstration of trust convinces her of his having changed or at least being committed to try much harder to avoid the hornets nests.

 

The only thing that throws me about this episode is as sad as it was, I'm not sure how Felicity gets to be as angry at him as she is at the Funeral, so he's still fucking up enough to ENRAGE her for the next few weeks? I just don't get where the time is coming from to reunite them this season, but I would gladly have them reunite next episode and pretend this whole BMD never happened, even if it did give me this glorious Felicity stops being polite episode, because MA BABIES I need them together!