S02.E06: Bali Ha'i

[Lurky McLurkerson]

They didn't cash the check that they got from that earlier scam. 

 

They didn't get a check from the Ken Wins scam -- they got dinner and drinks from a financial manager thinking he was wooing big-time clients.  They walked away with a financial services contract, which they promptly dumped in the parking lot trash can.  This was scamming at the next level.

 

The main play for Mike was to keep his GD/DIL safe. I think that the price was just a starting point for the negotiations - 50k to a crank biz is nothing? Tio could have countered with less, but I think that Mike was mostly looking for that 'gentleman's agreement', in order to keep them off the radar screen?

 

It's not at all relevant to the to the $50K being no big thing to the Salamanca (it's not), but this ties into an unrelated pondering I was doing after watching this episode last night.  I'm can't figure out if the cartel is in the meth business at this stage.  I'm actually doing a BB rewatch right now, and I just watched the "Hermanos" episode from S4 on Sunday and trying to place the timing in the Better Call Saul timeline (rather unsuccessfully).  This includes a flashback to

Gus and his chicken-brother Max trying to get the cartel (Don Eladio, Tio Hector, and Juan Bolsa) to go into the meth business with them.  The cartel is very dismissive and takes the position that meth is an inferior product for "hillbillies and bikers" (with the insinuation it's cheap and appeals to people who can't pay as much, despite Gus's assertion that, being entirely synthetic, meth could be a cash cow and eliminate dependence on the South Americans for product)

-- the cartel's focus is cocaine with an active disinterest in meth.  That obviously changes before BB, and maybe if Gus shows up in Saul, it will make better sense timewise.

[duVerre]

I wonder what Kim's hesitation about taking the job is all about. She doesn't owe Howard jack shit.

 

We still don't know a lot about Howard, and it could be that she owes him in some way we don't know about ... yet.

 

Can someone help me out with something? Did Jimmy mention an ex-wife last season, or did Saul mention an ex-wife in Breaking Bad? If Saul mentioned her in BB, I'd be happy to ship Jimmy and Kim at an altar in Vegas.

 

I loved Rhea Seahorn's expression as she listened to Bali Ha'i.  Very sad, very loving, and sort of excited. She's a wonderful actress. 

[Bryce Lynch]

They didn't get a check from the Ken Wins scam -- they got dinner and drinks from a financial manager thinking he was wooing big-time clients. They walked away with a financial services contract, which they promptly dumped in the parking lot trash can. This was scamming at the next level.

It's not at all relevant to the to the $50K being no big thing to the Salamanca (it's not), but this ties into an unrelated pondering I was doing after watching this episode last night. I'm can't figure out if the cartel is in the meth business at this stage. I'm actually doing a BB rewatch right now, and I just watched the "Hermanos" episode from S4 on Sunday and trying to place the timing in the Better Call Saul timeline (rather unsuccessfully). This includes a flashback to

Gus and his chicken-brother Max trying to get the cartel (Don Eladio, Tio Hector, and Juan Bolsa) to go into the meth business with them. The cartel is very dismissive and takes the position that meth is an inferior product for "hillbillies and bikers" (with the insinuation it's cheap and appeals to people who can't pay as much, despite Gus's assertion that, being entirely synthetic, meth could be a cash cow and eliminate dependence on the South Americans for product)

-- the cartel's focus is cocaine with an active disinterest in meth. That obviously changes before BB, and maybe if Gus shows up in Saul, it will m

ake better sense timewise.

I think that flashback goes back to about the late 1980s. I also think Don Eladio decided to go ahead with Fring's idea to get into meth, but killed his partner as a punishment and warning to Fring due to the "disrespect" he showed the cartel in the way he went about arranging the meeting.

Speaking of that scene, I wonder if we will get a BCS scene where Hector inappropriately relieves himself. We saw Don Eladio's pool and Hank's interrogation room. Will he complete the trilogy in BCS? :)

[Sentient Meat]

I thought the reappearance of the Giselle character wasn't so much a rehash but rather a rare sighting of the Hitchcockian Ice Queen 2.0 mating call.  Her hesitant tentative dance away from the answering machine in the morning clearly indicated that she didn't want to leave until she had heard the latest installment of Jimmy's South Pacific marathon.   Maybe it's a tad too close to Phil and Claire... but that phone call is the closest thing you'll get to a boombox declaration out of Kim.

 

Reading the body language of the Kim and Howard walk, I don't even think it matters to her if the job offer is legit...  Jimmy is being suffocated at Davis and Main and when Kim closes the door to their meeting she quickly inhales almost as one does before they dive underwater.  I think her reasoning belies more an adherence to a code of honor ironically found in Mike and Hector's underworld, but at which Is merely playacted at the law firms.  Mike not only risks his life to save his granddaughter, but then splits the money with Nacho out of principle.  Jimmy gives up his freedom out of love for Kim, and Kim probably feels that she owes HHM for putting her through school when no one else would.  Meanwhile Davis and Main hypocritically ends up putting up their own sanitized version of Jimmy's commercial after scolding him for putting the firm at risk and of course Chuck earlier had betrayed his own brother.

 

However, it's not simply a case of the gangsters are good while the law firms are evil... it's more about the dehumanizing effects of a corporate structure... Gus of course ran Pollos Hermanos like a chessmaster more than willing to sacrifice his share of pawns, and when it comes to stone cold capitalism neither law firm has anything over Gus Fring.  But Gilligan tends to reward those characters that prioritize loyalty over money and power and Walt's character isn't redeemed until he gives up all of this money to try to save Hank.  While Gus and Chuck value the institution over the individual and both live/d in a semi-fortress like conditions that hinted in some ways that they were almost allergic to humanity... Jimmy actually thrives sleeping in a retail space.  The difference between Walt and Jimmy is that while Walt was angry at being left out of the American Dream, Jimmy never believed in its existence.in the first place.

[ElDosEquis]

They didn't get a check from the Ken Wins scam -- they got dinner and drinks from a financial manager thinking he was wooing big-time clients.  They walked away with a financial services contract, which they promptly dumped in the parking lot trash can.  This was scamming at the next level.

 

 

It's not at all relevant to the to the $50K being no big thing to the Salamanca (it's not), but this ties into an unrelated pondering I was doing after watching this episode last night.  I'm can't figure out if the cartel is in the meth business at this stage.  I'm actually doing a BB rewatch right now, and I just watched the "Hermanos" episode from S4 on Sunday and trying to place the timing in the Better Call Saul timeline (rather unsuccessfully).  This includes a flashback to

Gus and his chicken-brother Max trying to get the cartel (Don Eladio, Tio Hector, and Juan Bolsa) to go into the meth business with them.  The cartel is very dismissive and takes the position that meth is an inferior product for "hillbillies and bikers" (with the insinuation it's cheap and appeals to people who can't pay as much, despite Gus's assertion that, being entirely synthetic, meth could be a cash cow and eliminate dependence on the South Americans for product)

-- the cartel's focus is cocaine with an active disinterest in meth.  That obviously changes before BB, and maybe if Gus shows up in Saul, it will make better sense timewise.

You are right about the coke/meth timeline..My apologies.....Tuco is on a meth induced slide down hill at the moment, that and I took the "biker piece of skull in my skin" the result of a meth deal gone badly. I was crossed up.

[SoSueMe]

I loved the Mike/Hector negotiations, but how different could that have gone if Hector hadn't given a pass to Mike packing at the meeting...

[shapeshifter]

Meanwhile, every single time I see a wall of words "call blankyblankandblank law firm IF" I think of this show.  Kind of like free commercials for them! Ha.  Tonight there was a real person, blond, pretty, semi professional looking standing in front of a wall of words about calling them if you lost your hair to chemo, specifically breast cancer patients.  UGh.

As someone going through chemo, I can say that commercial is abhorrent--something I tune out. Which makes me wonder if Jimmy's version of his commercial would have been as effective as portrayed in the show.

[Dev F]

Can someone help me out with something? Did Jimmy mention an ex-wife last season, or did Saul mention an ex-wife in Breaking Bad? If Saul mentioned her in BB, I'd be happy to ship Jimmy and Kim at an altar in Vegas. 

 

There have been two references to Jimmy's ex-wives. In the Breaking Bad episode "Green Light," Saul tries to talk Walt out of getting into it with Ted Beneke after Skyler confesses that she's been fucking him. He says, "I caught my second wife screwing my stepdad, okay? It's a cruel world, Walt." Then last season on Better Call Saul, Jimmy mentioned that the guy on whose car he performed a Chicago sunroof was "this guy named Chet. Now, Chet was a real asshole. He might have owed me some money. He might have slept with my wife, before she became my ex-wife."

 

So it's possible that Chet is Jimmy's stepdad and he's referring to the same incident in both cases. It's also possible that Chet slept with Jimmy's first soon-to-be ex-wife, and Kim is fated to be his second. I've always wondered if there's some plausible way to retcon the "stepdad" comment into a veiled reference to Chuck. I could see Kim and Jimmy tying the knot and then getting torn apart by Kim having an affair with Chuck -- or Jimmy just thinking that they were having one.

 

And regardless of whether they end up going there, I've always assumed that the stepdad reference was what inspired the creation of Chuck as a character. I figure they started with "What if the stepdad Saul mentioned were introduced on BCS?" then decided that it was too convoluted and not personal enough, and decided to make him into a big brother character instead.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Dev F

[ElDosEquis]

It likely would have been more dangerous to the GD/DIL for Mike to simply ask for 5k, or worse, to meekly accept Tio's statement that money was now off the table. Mike had to communicate to Tio that he is smart enough to understand what leverage he has, and that he has the guts to use it. To not do so might give Tio the idea that he can expose GD/DIL to danger without dowside to Tio. Demanding 50k, and telling Tio he's willing to die right then and there, killing Tio in the process, if the demand isn't met, tells Tio that the smart thing to do is to pay out what is small sum by cartel standards, to get Tuco out quickly.  

Tio took a chance by going to an ex-cop and telling him to lie about the case. Two ways that could have gone? Mike either goes to the cops with the story of intimidation or he knuckles under - If he knuckles under, Tio thinks that Mike is a walkover and that is where Mike HAS to go for broke. The danger is that now that Mike has entered into an 'agreement' with Tio? They both are in debt to each other, there is no going back now.

[Lurky McLurkerson]

You are right about the coke/meth timeline..My apologies.....Tuco is on a meth induced slide down hill at the moment, that and I took the "biker piece of skull in my skin" the result of a meth deal gone badly. I was crossed up.

 

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean that to be critical of your post!  Just musing over the master timeline based on the fact that I'd just recently watched the BB episode and was trying to splice the two together in my head.  As Bryce Lynch noted in the quote below, it possible that the BB scene is from about 15 years before this episode of BCS, so the Salamancas could already be a decade into the meth business here.

 

I think that flashback goes back to about the late 1980s. I also think Don Eladio decided to go ahead with Fring's idea to get into meth, but killed his partner as a punishment and warning to Fring due to the "disrespect" he showed the cartel in the way he went about arranging the meeting.

Speaking of that scene, I wonder if we will get a BCS scene where Hector inappropriately relieves himself. We saw Don Eladio's pool and Hank's interrogation room. Will he complete the trilogy in BCS? :)

 

With regard to the latter, as I was watching "Hermanos", I had totally forgotten that Hector peed in the pool and immediately thought, "Well, what's left for him to do in Saul? Vomit on someone deliberately?"  (In BB, I thought his aggressively pissing in the pool when able-bodied and then soiling himself to clear the room at the DEA was an interesting parallel.  This guy seems to like to use his bodily wastes as a form of aggression.)

[Should Be Working]

Let me get this straight. Mike offers to take the fall for the gun if Hector pays him $50.000 and leaves his GD and DIL alone.. If that's the case, it exposes Mike to possible illegal firearm charges and providing false information (it was Tuco's gun) to the police for their arrest report. Given that he doesn't want to do any time himself and leave his girls alone and unprotected from the Salamancas, how is Mike better off now than if he had simply turned down Nacho's offer to get rid of Tuco (either through his murder or a 10 year jail sentence) in the first place?

[SoSueMe]

Let me get this straight. Mike offers to take the fall for the gun if Hector pays him $50.000 and leaves his GD and DIL alone.. If that's the case, it exposes Mike to possible illegal firearm charges and providing false information (it was Tuco's gun) to the police for their arrest report. Given that he doesn't want to do any time himself and leave his girls alone and unprotected from the Salamancas, how is Mike better off now than if he had simply turned down Nacho's offer to get rid of Tuco (either through his murder or a 10 year jail sentence) in the first place?

I think that the theory was that Mike would be treated with leniency being an ex-cop. That could blow up in his face if the gun can be traced to any open cases?

[RCharter]

I think that the theory was that Mike would be treated with leniency being an ex-cop. That could blow up in his face if the gun can be traced to any open cases?

I can't envision a high level drug dealer carrying around a traceable gun, or a "dirty" gun.  Even one driving that car.

 

I think the prosecutor will know exactly what the deal is and he won't go any further.  He will know that Hector intimidated and threatened Mike, just like Hector would do to anyone in this situation.  I don't think the DA is going to make a big deal of it, since it probably happens all the time with drug dealers...no one saw anything and people suddenly forget what they saw when the realize who they saw do it.  

[ElDosEquis]

I think that the theory was that Mike would be treated with leniency being an ex-cop. That could blow up in his face if the gun can be traced to any open cases?

The gun had to be clean - bought legally and then most likely resold at a gun show, where people can sell guns without having to do back ground checks. The gun fired .410 shotgun shells which aren't traceable.

Edited March 22, 2016 by ElDosEquis

[Should Be Working]

I can't envision a high level drug dealer carrying around a traceable gun, or a "dirty" gun.  Even one driving that car.

 

I think the prosecutor will know exactly what the deal is and he won't go any further.  He will know that Hector intimidated and threatened Mike, just like Hector would do to anyone in this situation.  I don't think the DA is going to make a big deal of it, since it probably happens all the time with drug dealers...no one saw anything and people suddenly forget what they saw when the realize who they saw do it.  

 

How can you be so sure the assigned DA will know with certainty that Hector threatened Mike unless Mike tells him so (which he won't do)? All the DA will know is that Mike is a dirty cop from Philly suspected of murdering two other Philly cops who is now coming forward days after Tuco's arrest and probable charging to claim that the gun the police retrieved was actually his, requiring that the DA's office remove that most damaging charge from the case against their most prominent and murderous local druglord, Tuco of the bloodthirsty Salamance family.

 

If it all works out fine for Mike as you seem to suggest, then the writers are taking shortcuts to promote the S2 story arc they'[ve been told to pursue. It's not the way the district attorneys in drug-infested city's operate. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by Should Be Working

[Umbelina]

Sorry, messed up the quoting of specific people here.

Oh, absolutely, I have no doubt that JIMMY would have kept it, but the comment was about Kim having graduated to grifting for cash.  For Jimmy, this is a way of life, a career.  For Kim, it's like a budding addiction, a flirt with danger.

A pretty bizarre and dangerous flirt for a 44 (or so) year old lawyer who is already barely holding on to her career and is still in debt, what if someone saw her in that bar, or the guy had second thoughts, and went to the police, describing them?  For a momentary high? 

 

I wonder if Kim isn't somehow scared of getting everything she wants and finding out its not everything she wants.  I just think of her, getting ready to make that call, with her phone out as she watches a woman getting into a Porshe and the date coming in to hit on her.  All that money, and it didn't make her life perfect.

 

Kim never struck me as someone who expected life to be "perfect" though, she's been a drudge, worked away in the mail room and dock review, she mostly seems like someone who wants security and respect.  I agree she's supposed to be bored with it all, and hopefully pissed, definitely discouraged. 
   

I guess luckily the thugs were mouth breathers, because otherwise they would've heard the copy paper rattle when they stepped on it. Even if he had used rice paper or something less likely to make noise to capture the carbon footprints, the carbon paper would have rattled a bit too.
    ETA: If Mike had put a really tight fitting hard layer under the paper, it might not have rattled. But it was just paper for the the bottom layer, right?

I don't think you'd hear the carbon paper under a thick rubber mat, especially if he glued it down completely rather than just at the edges, which is what I would do.  I don't know what the white mat was underneath, perhaps just paper, but it seemed pretty solid.  Again, thick rubber, and not looking for it.  I thought it was pretty cool, also wondered about the mail-person stepping there though.  Ha.

 

The biggest danger would be them looking under the mat for a key.

   

I doubt most people, including cartel thugs, pay much attention to the sounds a welcome mat makes when they step on it.

 

Yeah, more likely to check the normal things like a hair in the door frame.

 

  

  I think especially now that Nacho said he volunteered to bring the money to Mike, that Hector's ears should prick up if they haven't already.

 

Could be.  I think Nacho would have been very careful about the way he said it though, offhand.

 

   

Sadly, I am getting bored as well.  I feel like Kim is just doing a Jimmy.  He came home from Chicago after Chet's funeral and seemed to turn down the big promising job, only to take it and not fit.  It seems Kim is also enjoying walking on the wild side too much to ever really fit in the law firm life.  Maybe that can get interesting but right now it isn't.

 

Stayed too long at the party?  Could be.  The whole purpose for the law firm's (both) story was originally to propel Jimmy into becoming Saul, and the writers have said they decided to stay there.  Now, maybe it's too much ret-con for characters that they really didn't intend to be around for long?  That said, I'm hoping, hoping, hoping they correct that soon, and we get some huge reveal episode that shocks us, or at the very least, isn't something we've already suspected.  Gilligan was the master at that on BB, so there is reason to hope.  The enigma Howard is the logical choice there.

   

After last season's reveal of Chuck's contempt of Jimmy, I'm calling that Howard himself contacted Schweikert to lure Kim away, either legit or as a trap to boot Kim. I can also see Erin stepping up, either for Kim's hours or getting Jimmy's work back to HMM.

I can also see HMM billing the crap out of this, then dropping it for a settlement which would screw over the Bingo Buddies. That would cause Jimmy to regenerate into Saul.

Would Chuck completely tank the Old Folks RICO case, simply to hurt Jimmy?  Why yes, yes he would.  I think you may be on to something there.  I think Chuck is capable of anything.  He's a petulant, selfish, jealous prick and his hate for Jimmy is palpable.  I wonder if that's it?
   

    Who knew they still MADE carbon paper?

 

  This crew is usually pretty good about checking things like that out time-wise though.  Just checked google shopping!  Yes, it's STILL sold, you can even get it at Staples.

  

  I noticed the lack of continuity when Mike parked his car in front of his house, but it didn't bother me.

 

It didn't really bother me, but on a show where you already know the smallest thing could have significance, it's odd that they missed that in editing.  I mean, they've practically trained us to watch for tiny details. Ha.  

 

I thought that, when she and Jimmy were talking at her apartment, one of them made a comment about it being a souvenir/memento from their con.  I didn't get the impression that either of them was going to cash the check.

 

Do you really have to cash the check for it to be a crime  though?  Flirting with crime when you are a lawyer makes sense with Jimmy, he was a con first.  For Kim though, to risk losing everything in her mid-forties and carrying substantial law school debt?  So, she's SUPER cautious about taking a partner track, we will wipe away all your debt job offer, but has no problem pulling a con in a public bar?  Or even considering staying at HHM?  Honestly, it makes her seem alternately like a doormat (with no clever carbon paper under it) or a nutcase.  Maybe she is...

Edited March 22, 2016 by Umbelina

[Bryce Lynch]

Let me get this straight. Mike offers to take the fall for the gun if Hector pays him $50.000 and leaves his GD and DIL alone.. If that's the case, it exposes Mike to possible illegal firearm charges and providing false information (it was Tuco's gun) to the police for their arrest report. Given that he doesn't want to do any time himself and leave his girls alone and unprotected from the Salamancas, how is Mike better off now than if he had simply turned down Nacho's offer to get rid of Tuco (either through his murder or a 10 year jail sentence) in the first place?

Being an ex-cop and the victim of the assault would buy him plenty of leniency from the police.

Assuming the gun did not have its serial number defaced and had not been reported stolen, Mike would not be committing a crime in NM, by carrying the gun without a permit, as long as he wasn't concealing it. He could explain that he is from Philly and back there you can't carry without a permit, so he thought he would get in trouble if he admitted the gun was his.

[mrspidey]

Kim's chosen alias of Giselle reminds me of an episode of Coupling, where numerous characters gleefully adopted the alias of Giselle ("ze French beech!").

So I wasn't the only one. God, that episode had me in stitches back in the days.

 

About Kaylee...I'm starting to get some Willy Adama vibes from her. How can she still be that little 6 years later?

Edited March 22, 2016 by mrspidey

[futurechemist]

I felt so bad for Jimmy when he saw the crappy D&M commercial.  First, he knows it will fail - horrible timeslot, no emotional impact.  Second, he didn't seem to know it would air.  Sure the partners were under no obligation to tell him, but if he's in charge of client intake, he should have been aware.

 

I'm on a yo-yo with Hamlin.  Season 1 - hate him because he won't let Jimmy advance.  End of season 1 - not such a bad guy, he was rooting for Jimmy against Chuck, and he got Jimmy the job with D&M.  Season 2 - hate him again because he's pulling the same crap with Kim.

[TVFan17]

 

 

I am pretty sure you MEANT to say the goons got off easy with Mike?  

 

 

No.  What I MEANT to say was that Mike got off easy with those two particular guys being buffoons and generally inefficient/ineffective/ineffectual criminals.  If the Cousins had been in his house, it could have gone a much different way (even though we knew he would survive to the BB story).  I mean, yes, he is Mike and he is amazing, but we have seen what the Cousins can do and he might have ended up on the losing end in that situation if they had been in his house. 

 

So he got off easy with those specific guys being 2 dunderheads in his house.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Sherry67

[Umbelina]

I loved the Mike/Hector negotiations, but how different could that have gone if Hector hadn't given a pass to Mike packing at the meeting...

Oh EXCELLENT point!  A couple of Mike's latest have relied on luck or thing playing out exactly as he plans. 

 

Also another poster pointed out Mike going to see Kaylie while all this very dangerous shit is going on seemed out of character.  Frankly, I think Hector would  have found her anyway, and already did.  Still, it seemed pretty odd for Mike to have her out in the open like that, he had to know people he cared for WOULD be used against him to make him take the fall for Tuco.

[Umbelina]

Being an ex-cop and the victim of the assault would buy him plenty of leniency from the police.

Assuming the gun did not have its serial number defaced and had not been reported stolen, Mike would not be committing a crime in NM, by carrying the gun without a permit, as long as he wasn't concealing it. He could explain that he is from Philly and back there you can't carry without a permit, so he thought he would get in trouble if he admitted the gun was his.

Agree with the ex cop thing might get a pass thing, but not if they know he's suspected of killing two cops.  As far as "sorry, I didn't know the laws here...." Well, if he tries to pull that, and if they let him, I'll be saying BULLSHIT.  If you own a gun, you know the laws in your state, and in states you may simply be traveling through with your gun, let alone moved to months ago.  That's especially if you spent your life in law enforcement.

 

No.  What I MEANT to say was that Mike got off easy with those two particular guys being buffoons and generally inefficient criminals.  If the Cousins had been in his house, it could have gone a much different way (even though we knew he would survive to the BB story).  I mean, yes, he is Mike and he is amazong, but we have seen what the Cousins can do and he might have ended up on the losing end in that situation if they had been in his house. 

 

So he got off easy with those specific guys being 2 dunderheads in his house.

I agree.  Things keep going Mike's way with pretty loosey-goosey plans.  They need to tighten that stuff up, or we are in superhero territory as far as believability  Still love it every time Mike is on screen though. 

 

It's just not TIGHT! TIGHT! TIGHT!

[RCharter]

How can you be so sure the assigned DA will know with certainty that Hector threatened Mike unless Mike tells him so (which he won't do)? All the DA will know is that Mike is a dirty cop from Philly suspected of murdering two other Philly cops who is now coming forward days after Tuco's arrest and probable charging to claim that the gun the police retrieved was actually his, requiring that the DA's office remove that most damaging charge from the case against their most prominent and murderous local druglord, Tuco of the bloodthirsty Salamance family.

 

If it all works out fine for Mike as you seem to suggest, then the writers are taking shortcuts to promote the S2 story arc they'[ve been told to pursue. It's not the way the district attorneys in drug-infested city's operate. 

Because if he told the police he was only changing his testimony because he was intimidated he could still be subopeaned and forced to answer.  This is why DA's generally read between the lines when someone says they "forgot" who it was that attacked them, or they were "mistaken" and it was really their gun.  I would think, and hope that a reasonable DA would see: 1) dangerous drug dealer that is part of a more dangerous enterprise, 2) retired cop, or just an old man, and 3) a sudden case of the "oops" and be able to put it together.  I don't think it takes much to connect those dots.  Actually, its exactly the way DA's in big city, drug infested neighborhoods operate.  You can't force people to testify if they tell you that they forgot or were mistaken, you can ask the judge to sanction someone for refusing to testify, but if their testimony is that they were mistaken or forgot and their testimony is pretty much all you have holding the case together (how are you going to prove its not Mike's gun?) than you would waste your time and the judges time by taking it to trial.

 

Mike is not a convicted felon holding a gun, which I think would be the issue with Tuco having the gun.  So, if a DA must trust Mike to say that its his gun than what exactly would the charge be?  Having the gun without a license?  Having an unregistered gun?  Neither sound like a felony, and both sound like a fine of some sort and a requirement to turn the gun over.

[duVerre]

I'm on a yo-yo with Hamlin.  Season 1 - hate him because he won't let Jimmy advance.  End of season 1 - not such a bad guy, he was rooting for Jimmy against Chuck, and he got Jimmy the job with D&M.  Season 2 - hate him again because he's pulling the same crap with Kim.

 

I agree. Right now, he doesn't seem to be a character to me as much as he is a plot device.

[AuntiePam]

They didn't get a check from the Ken Wins scam -- they got dinner and drinks from a financial manager thinking he was wooing big-time clients.  They walked away with a financial services contract, which they promptly dumped in the parking lot trash can.  This was scamming at the next level.

 

 

Thanks for the correction.  Yes, this was next-level scamming. 

 

Can someone who pays closer attention than me explain why we think Kim is in her mid-40's?  Four years college, three years law school, a total of ten years at HHM.   Do we know how old she was when she started at the HHM mail room? 

 

Even if she started at HHM after college, age 22-23, she could be in her early 30's.  Couldn't she?

 

She just doesn't look 44 to me.  But at my age, everyone looks like a kid.

[Bannon]

Tio took a chance by going to an ex-cop and telling him to lie about the case. Two ways that could have gone? Mike either goes to the cops with the story of intimidation or he knuckles under - If he knuckles under, Tio thinks that Mike is a walkover and that is where Mike HAS to go for broke. The danger is that now that Mike has entered into an 'agreement' with Tio? They both are in debt to each other, there is no going back now.

Oh, once Tuco is out, Mike, Mike's leverage will be gone, and he'll need to do something to not be completely  under Tio's thumb. It'll be interesting to see how the writers handle this.  

[TVFan17]

I agree.  Things keep going Mike's way with pretty loosey-goosey plans.  They need to tighten that stuff up, or we are in superhero territory as far as believability  Still love it every time Mike is on screen though. 

 

It's just not TIGHT! TIGHT! TIGHT!

 

 

Tight!  Lol.  Tuco is so funny -- in a menacing, unpredictable, violent way.

 

Yes, indeed -- every minute with Mike on BCS is fascinating, especially as we are learning more about what he was up to in his pre-BB days.  I agree with something you said in another thread several days ago, in that all of this Salamanca stuff is basically the build-up to a Gus Fring arrival.  I don't know how or when Gus will appear, but it seems like we are on a fast track to Gus.

 

The scenes with Mike and Hector, and the scene with the Cousins looking down over the pool area, have been so tense.  I was nervous for Mike -- even though I know that Mike is not going anywhere.  Hector is not particularly scary just as far as his physical presence goes, but we know he is capable of terrible things.  Hector is willing to talk about things to a point, but he is still a bad person.  

 

The Cousins, on the other hand, as we know from BB, are not like other people in that they are not interested in talking or negotiating or reasoning.  They are not interested in giving anyone a second chance.  They don't say anything, but they make their feelings known by their expressions and overall presence.  They are scary and menacing as hell, and always have been.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Sherry67

[Auntie Anxiety]

 

I loved Rhea Seahorn's expression as she listened to Bali Ha'i.  Very sad, very loving, and sort of excited. She's a wonderful actress.

The meaning of the song, Bali Ha'i, shouldn't be lost on us.  Bali Ha'i is symbolic of a place that you long to get to but is too far out of your reach, a place where you'll be happy and fulfilled and living the dream.  The offer from S&C(?) was just that to Kim.  Too good to be true?  What happens if she takes the risk and finds out that it doesn't make her happy?  Maybe it is better to stick with the devil you know......

 

It seemed to me that Jimmy was calling her every morning at the same time with a song from South Pacific and she was reluctant to leave her place before hearing from him on that particular day.  Even though she was angry with him, she still missed him. His message after he ended the song was something along the lines of "this ends this week's musical stylings of songs from South Pacific and I encourage you to call in with requests."  Jimmy is so very charming.

 

She feels like she isn't being respected at HHM, but Kim is someone who believes that you should play by the rules.  Maybe she does feel like she owes HHM something instead of realizing that the shoe is on the other foot.  She brought in a big client for HHM and she gets absolutely nothing for doing so. They owe HER something and the only way she knows how to react is to leave for lunch and not care that Howard needed the documents read asap.  It was her way of saying Fuck You.

 

If you take another look at what Mike bought from the store (he emptied out the contents of the plastic bag onto his table), it was a welcome mat, carbon paper and a ream of white paper which were all used for information about whether anyone was inside his house and how many there might be.  He could use that trick over and over again, just renew the carbon paper and the white paper every day and check it on the way inside after work.

[Should Be Working]

It's just not TIGHT! TIGHT! TIGHT!

 

Totally agree. The Hector who so amicably accepted Mike's demand for $50K is the same fellow who threatened to drown one of the cousins when they were feuding over a toy as children. And joyfully offed Gus' partner next to that cartel swimming pool. 

[Umbelina]

Thanks for the correction.  Yes, this was next-level scamming. 

 

Can someone who pays closer attention than me explain why we think Kim is in her mid-40's?  Four years college, three years law school, a total of ten years at HHM.   Do we know how old she was when she started at the HHM mail room? 

 

Even if she started at HHM after college, age 22-23, she could be in her early 30's.  Couldn't she?

 

She just doesn't look 44 to me.  But at my age, everyone looks like a kid.

I think because she looks like she's mid-forties.  I checked the BCS wiki and it doesn't mention her age though.  I got the idea she worked in the mailroom, decided to go to law school later in life.  I mean, Erin is treated better than she is, and she's (what I consider to be) the normal age for her position at a "big" firm. 

 

The meaning of the song, Bali Ha'i, shouldn't be lost on us.  Bali Ha'i is symbolic of a place that you long to get to but is too far out of your reach, a place where you'll be happy and fulfilled and living the dream.  The offer from S&C(?) was just that to Kim.  Too good to be true?  What happens if she takes the risk and finds out that it doesn't make her happy?  Maybe it is better to stick with the devil you know......

 

It seemed to me that Jimmy was calling her every morning at the same time with a song from South Pacific and she was reluctant to leave her place before hearing from him on that particular day.  Even though she was angry with him, she still missed him. His message after he ended the song was something along the lines of "this ends this week's musical stylings of songs from South Pacific and I encourage you to call in with requests."  Jimmy is so very charming.

 

She feels like she isn't being respected at HHM, but Kim is someone who believes that you should play by the rules.  Maybe she does feel like she owes HHM something instead of realizing that the shoe is on the other foot.  She brought in a big client for HHM and she gets absolutely nothing for doing so. They owe HER something and the only way she knows how to react is to leave for lunch and not care that Howard needed the documents read asap.  It was her way of saying Fuck You.

 

If you take another look at what Mike bought from the store (he emptied out the contents of the plastic bag onto his table), it was a welcome mat, carbon paper and a ream of white paper which were all used for information about whether anyone was inside his house and how many there might be.  He could use that trick over and over again, just renew the carbon paper and the white paper every day and check it on the way inside after work.

Probably my favorite musical ever, because it was so groundbreaking about race, about war, about things people simply didn't make movies about back then.  Released in 1958.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pacific_%28musical%29 Honestly, it set a tone for me for the rest of my life when I saw it as a kid.  I also love just about every single song.  I highly recommend watching it if you haven't, and even if you think you hate musicals.  Just picture someone making THIS movie, before the major civil rights movement. 

The original.

 

Which led to this remarkable and beautiful statement about race in the United States.  I wish we could have heard Jimmy sing this one!  There is a better scene with this song, but this is part of it.

 Or washing that man right out of his hair, Happy Talk, hell, I hope they release a sound track with Odenkirk singing them all.  Ha.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Umbelina

[Ohwell]

Thanks for the correction.  Yes, this was next-level scamming. 

 

Can someone who pays closer attention than me explain why we think Kim is in her mid-40's?  Four years college, three years law school, a total of ten years at HHM.   Do we know how old she was when she started at the HHM mail room? 

 

Even if she started at HHM after college, age 22-23, she could be in her early 30's.  Couldn't she?

 

She just doesn't look 44 to me.  But at my age, everyone looks like a kid.

I might have started the mid-40s thing (not knowing the actress's real age) because I looked at her in the preview clip listening to Bali Hai, and that's the age she looked to me with the closeups on her face.  I saw the lines around the eyes, and the neck is always a dead giveaway.  I think she's attractive, but I wasn't too far off since the actress is 44. 

[Bannon]

Totally agree. The Hector who so amicably accepted Mike's demand for $50K is the same fellow who threatened to drown one of the cousins when they were feuding over a toy as children. And joyfully offed Gus' partner next to that cartel swimming pool. 

It wasn't amicable. It was Tio recognizing the undeniable, that he needs Mike's very specific cooperation to get something very important to him, and Mike only cares about one thing, the well being of GD/DIL, and the moment Tio exercises that leverage over Mike, then it is gone forever. Mike is a hard, hard, case to negotiate with, because he only cares about one thing, and if you take away that one thing, there is no middle ground. Tio really can't move on Mike until Mike gets Tuco out. How Mike can get Tuco out (remember, Tio specifically said he didn't care what story Mike told to to get the gun charge dropped, he just wants it dropped) without putting himself under Tuco's thumb is where this story arc needs to go, and if that is executed well, the writing has been sufficiently tight.

 

Hmmmmm, if that gun were to disappear from the evidence room, the charge goes away, and evidence rooms for local police departments have been known to be mismanaged, especially for non-capital cases.Gilligan used a fairly incredible method of evidence destruction in BB (one of the plot elements in that show which was a little weak, in my opinion), maybe he'll have something less spectacular this time, which informs Tio that Mike has talents  which he could use on an ongoing basis. Like I said, I am really curious to see how the writers advance the plot in this area.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Bannon

[Blakeston]

I didn't take Schweikart's job offer to Kim as having a secret, sinister motivation.

 

The character is a jerk, for sure - we saw that last season, in how he treated Jimmy and Chuck. But I took the point of the job offer scene to be that Kim was being offered a golden opportunity to get out of HHM, by a firm that will put her on partner track and even pay off money she owes from law school - but she isn't excited by it. It seems like another firm run by jerks, where the same stupid crap happens. What's really appealing to her is conning people with Jimmy.

 

Meanwhile Davis and Main hypocritically ends up putting up their own sanitized version of Jimmy's commercial after scolding him for putting the firm at risk and of course Chuck earlier had betrayed his own brother.

I don't think it was hypocritical for them to run an ad. They never said they were against ads altogether. They called out Jimmy on running an ad using the company name without permission, which is unacceptable even if the ad is great.

And they ended up using a very different ad anyway, which (while less effective) was in the style they've chosen for representing the firm.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Blakeston

[ShadowFacts]

Being an ex-cop and the victim of the assault would buy him plenty of leniency from the police.

Assuming the gun did not have its serial number defaced and had not been reported stolen, Mike would not be committing a crime in NM, by carrying the gun without a permit, as long as he wasn't concealing it. He could explain that he is from Philly and back there you can't carry without a permit, so he thought he would get in trouble if he admitted the gun was his.

 

As has been mentioned, he is not just any old ex-cop, he has already been questioned in ABQ police premises by Philadelphia cops about murder.  He wants to stay off the police radar.  I think the gun almost has to disappear from evidence.  If he says whatever he might possibly say about it being his and why he didn't own up to it, his fingerprints are not on it, are they?  I will not find it believable if he makes the gun felony go away by some song and dance. 

 

I also think he was sloppy about going to see Kaylee after Hector had already obviously had him followed.  It is also true Hector could have probably found her anyway.  That is a weak link in this story, and was in Breaking Bad as well.  I always really hated Walt for putting his family in such danger all the time.  Mike is doing the same.  He can't protect that kid or her mother 24/7, and yet he's out and about consorting with murderous drug dealers, so he can make lots of money to give her.  Not exactly noble for lots of reasons, and ultimately futile. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Agree with the ex cop thing might get a pass thing, but not if they know he's suspected of killing two cops. As far as "sorry, I didn't know the laws here...." Well, if he tries to pull that, and if they let him, I'll be saying BULLSHIT. If you own a gun, you know the laws in your state, and in states you may simply be traveling through with your gun, let alone moved to months ago. That's especially if you spent your life in law enforcement.

I agree. Things keep going Mike's way with pretty loosey-goosey plans. They need to tighten that stuff up, or we are in superhero territory as far as believability Still love it every time Mike is on screen though.

It's just not TIGHT! TIGHT! TIGHT!

My point is Mike probably wouldn't have broken any laws in NM by possessing the gun as long as he wasn't concealing it. I am sure he and Tuco would both claim that Mike was open carrying it.

The "I'm from Philly" story would not be to excuse him from breaking any gun laws since he didn't break any. It would be to explain why he let the cops think it was Tuco's. It would be a sort of reverse ignorance of the law. He thought it might be illegal and acted accordingly when it turned out it was perfectly legal.

[Lurky McLurkerson]

A pretty bizarre and dangerous flirt for a 44 (or so) year old lawyer who is already barely holding on to her career and is still in debt, what if someone saw her in that bar, or the guy had second thoughts, and went to the police, describing them?  For a momentary high? 

 

Do you really have to cash the check for it to be a crime  though?  Flirting with crime when you are a lawyer makes sense with Jimmy, he was a con first.  For Kim though, to risk losing everything in her mid-forties and carrying substantial law school debt?  So, she's SUPER cautious about taking a partner track, we will wipe away all your debt job offer, but has no problem pulling a con in a public bar?  Or even considering staying at HHM?  Honestly, it makes her seem alternately like a doormat (with no clever carbon paper under it) or a nutcase.  Maybe she is...

 

What crime did they commit, if they have not cashed the check or done anything fraudulent with the bank routing/account information on it?  I'm not arguing that it's a smart thing for Kim to do (because it is supremely dumb), but I think Ken would have more of a criminal complaint against them than latest mark.  Cash the check, and it becomes fraud/theft/probably any number of things.  Without the money, it could be chalked up to practical joke or drunken dare.  Stupid, but unlikely to be criminal -- maybe a misdemeanor.  They'd probably have more traction with a bar association ethics complaint.  (Fraud targets are also sometimes hesitant to go to the police because they don't want to look stupid.  I am far more worried about Kim running into one of their marks professionally.)

Edited March 22, 2016 by Lurky McLurkerson

[Bryce Lynch]

As has been mentioned, he is not just any old ex-cop, he has already been questioned in ABQ police premises by Philadelphia cops about murder. He wants to stay off the police radar. I think the gun almost has to disappear from evidence. If he says whatever he might possibly say about it being his and why he didn't own up to it, his fingerprints are not on it, are they? I will not find it believable if he makes the gun felony go away by some song and dance.

I also think he was sloppy about going to see Kaylee after Hector had already obviously had him followed. It is also true Hector could have probably found her anyway. That is a weak link in this story, and was in Breaking Bad as well. I always really hated Walt for putting his family in such danger all the time. Mike is doing the same. He can't protect that kid or her mother 24/7, and yet he's out and about consorting with murderous drug dealers, so he can make lots of money to give her. Not exactly noble for lots of reasons, and ultimately futile.

The APD might not know what the Philly PD talked to him about and probably assumed he was cleared since he was never arrested.

At any rate, since Mike is not a convicted felon, under a restraining order, convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence, dishonorably discharged from the military, under indictment for a felony a non-resident alien, a fugitive from justice or adjudicated mentally defective, he could legally open carry the pistol.

[Umbelina]

That's why I asked.  I know the victim could say "emotional distress" and I'm wondering what other possible crimes she could be charged with, especially since she still has the check in her possession and they'd only have her word that she wasn't going to cash it.  Lawyers?

 

I googled reasons for disbarment but they sort of bored me silly, and all seemed to say different things, so again...lawyers?

 

Mostly though, it seems like she's acting like an irresponsible kid, and given her age and debts and prospects if she does get caught?  I guess I could fan-wank that she's always been super serious and is having a mid-life crisis and throwing it all away for cheap thrills.

[Blakeston]

What crime did they commit, if they have not cashed the check or done anything fraudulent with the bank routing/account information on it?  I'm not arguing that it's a smart thing for Kim to do (because it is supremely dumb), but I think Ken would have more of a criminal complaint against them than latest mark.  Cash the check, and it becomes fraud/theft/probably any number of things.  Without the money, it could be chalked up to practical joke or drunken dare.  Stupid, but unlikely to be criminal -- maybe a misdemeanor.  They'd probably have more traction with a bar association ethics complaint.  (Fraud targets are also sometimes hesitant to go to the police because they don't want to look stupid.  I am far more worried about Kim running into one of their marks professionally.)

Obtaining a check via fraud is illegal. The authorities don't have to wait for you to cash it.

[Bryce Lynch]

What crime did they commit, if they have not cashed the check or done anything fraudulent with the bank routing/account information on it? I'm not arguing that it's a smart thing for Kim to do (because it is supremely dumb), but I think Ken would have more of a criminal complaint against them than latest mark. Cash the check, and it becomes fraud/theft/probably any number of things. Without the money, it could be chalked up to practical joke or drunken dare. Stupid, but unlikely to be criminal -- maybe a misdemeanor. They'd probably have more traction with a bar association ethics complaint. (Fraud targets are also sometimes hesitant to go to the police because they don't want to look stupid. I am far more worried about Kim running into one of their marks professionally.)

I would think taking the check would be fraud in and of itself. Not cashing it might avoid additional charges and give them a semi plausible "it was only a joke" defense, and the victim would be less likely to press charges, but I would think they could still be charged.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

I don't think it was hypocritical for them to run an ad. They never said they were against ads altogether. They called out Jimmy on running an ad using the company name without permission, which is unacceptable even if the ad is great.

Putting aside Jimmy's disrespect for the chain of command, their main objection to the ad was its bottom-basement production level, specifically noting that Jimmy did the voice-over himself. It tarnishes their image to have an ad that doesn't look professional.

[ShadowFacts]

The APD might not know what the Philly PD talked to him about and probably assumed he was cleared since he was never arrested.

At any rate, since Mike is not a convicted felon, under a restraining order, convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence, dishonorably discharged from the military, under indictment for a felony a non-resident alien, a fugitive from justice or adjudicated mentally defective, he could legally open carry the pistol.

 

I don't dispute that Mike might be able to legally carry a gun, but what I am saying is he can't claim to own it if his fingerprints aren't on it, and I don't remember but I don't think he ever touched it, didn't it get kicked away?  I am pretty sure that an ABQ detective sat in on the questioning of Mike last season, so it is known what he was being looked at for. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by ShadowFacts

[Sentient Meat]

I don't think it was hypocritical for them to run an ad. They never said they were against ads altogether. They called out Jimmy on running an ad using the company name without permission, which is unacceptable even if the ad is great.

And they ended up using a very different ad anyway, which (while less effective) was in the style they've chosen for representing the firm.

 

It's a fair point, and I do respect that there is a chain of command and people have the right to manage their own business the way they please, but Clifford didn't say "Brilliant idea but please next time run it by us first."  They had a look of horror on their faces like the foundations of Western civilization were in danger because Jimmy didn't kiss the ring.  Gus had the same controlling attitude at Pollos Hermanos towards Jesse that Chuck and Main had towards Jimmy... a wild card that could not be trusted.  This attitude would be more tolerable if they had the finely honed ethics of Mike that could even think of returning Nachos money but they are just as corrupt as they people to whom they condescend and despise.  Jimmy's the one that returned the 1.6 million... Jesse's the one that kept Walt's share intact even when he was treated like dirt... yet neither firm has ever shown any hint of that sense of honor.

[knaankos]

Better Call Saul. The only show where less and less happens the closer we get to the season finale. 

[Auntie Anxiety]

With regard to the commercial, I figured that Davis & Main weren't happy about Jimmy's theatrical endeavor, but it got the job done, i.e., brought in the clients which translates into money. So maybe they "lowered their standards" and ran an ad, albeit one that no one would pay attention to and at a time when their target demographic would be asleep. Didn't seem to occur to D&M that Jimmy's genius is that he understands human nature (which is why he is so great at conning people) and that running words on a screen at a random post-midnight time is an exercise in futility.

[peeayebee]

I'm impressed with how young Hector looks compared to his wheelchair time on BB. I figure he was made up on BB to look old and decrepit, but I wonder what if anything was done to him here. Is he that youthful looking? Is the show using face-stretchy things or is it CGI?

[DrSpaceman73]

There's a HUGE difference between the genius of Mike and the genius of Walt.  Walt let his ego ABOUT his intelligence go to his head and it became his downfall.  Mike only slipped ONCE in his lifetime and that's when Walt shot him.  Mike was never greedy like Walt.

What I mean by the comparison is

1. They are both incredibly smart and meticulous in their planning of everything in these schemes

2. The reasons behind their misdeeds in both cases is partly to help their families, though in Walt's case he admits it's more about ego in the last episode, as you point out. In Mike's case it's more guilt in trying to make up for what he did to his son, attempting to make it up now to his granddaughter and daughter in law. Still leads him down a dark path

3. They are incredibly gutsy when needed. To demand $50K like he did is comparable to moves Walt made, like when he demanded compensation for Jesse's injuries and blew up half a building

4. They know their "craft" incredibly well, better than anyone. Walt knew chemistry, Mike know's guns, spying, the police side of things, everything associated with it.

I meant it as a compliment, not as an insult to Mike. Walter White had many positive qualities. It's just he was never able to use those qualities in the most positive manner and let his ego, as you point out, get the best of him.

[Lurky McLurkerson]

I don't see Mike and Walter as alike at all. Walt was not a meticulous planner but very good at thinking on his feet. He was a petty, insecure, self-centered man who used his family as an excuse for his illegal activities and wreaked havoc on everyone (his family included) he touched in the last 18 months of his life to feed his insatiable ego and sense of personal vengeance. I agree that Mike's guilt over his son drives a lot of his actions and makes him fine with walking into a situation he may not walk out of, but I think he is trying to do right by Kaylee. Mike also has no delusions of grandeur about what he really is.

Obtaining a check via fraud is illegal. The authorities don't have to wait for you to cash it.

I would think taking the check would be fraud in and of itself. Not cashing it might avoid additional charges and give them a semi plausible "it was only a joke" defense, and the victim would be less likely to press charges, but I would think they could still be charged.

Ah, I stand corrected. I see my zero semesters of law school have finally caught up to me. ;) Edited March 22, 2016 by Lurky McLurkerson

[ElDosEquis]

Tio told Mike that the original deal was void.

 

Tio laughed at Mike when he asked for the 50k. but, Tio admired Mike's huevos for asking.

 

Tio COULD have countered with a lower number, but Mike put a price on his cooperation - He made 25 thousand and refunded the 25k because the 'problem' was coming back? He stuck with the 'you paid me to do a job' mantra.

 

When you make 'deals' with people like that? Your word is your bond - no fucking contract negotiations here - Now? He has Tio's, Tuco's and Nacho's 'admiration' because he was able to work out a deal that made everyone happy. Mike has shown he is a straight shooter and just can be dealt with without any fear of him being a screwball?

[Bryce Lynch]

What I mean by the comparison is

1. They are both incredibly smart and meticulous in their planning of everything in these schemes

2. The reasons behind their misdeeds in both cases is partly to help their families, though in Walt's case he admits it's more about ego in the last episode, as you point out. In Mike's case it's more guilt in trying to make up for what he did to his son, attempting to make it up now to his granddaughter and daughter in law. Still leads him down a dark path

3. They are incredibly gutsy when needed. To demand $50K like he did is comparable to moves Walt made, like when he demanded compensation for Jesse's injuries and blew up half a building

4. They know their "craft" incredibly well, better than anyone. Walt knew chemistry, Mike know's guns, spying, the police side of things, everything associated with it.

I meant it as a compliment, not as an insult to Mike. Walter White had many positive qualities. It's just he was never able to use those qualities in the most positive manner and let his ego, as you point out, get the best of him.

I mostly agree, except I am not sure Mike's motives are any purer than Walt's. They both decided to break numerous laws, sell poison (to consenting adults) and commit murder in attempts to provide lavishly for their loved ones.

I think they both get drawn deeper and deeper into crime than they ever intended.

For the record I liked and rooted for Walt and feel the same way about Mike.