S02.E02: Dogs To A Gunfight

[Bec]

Another cliffhanger. Damn, I'm going back for more after this message. Hee.

 

I wonder if it's gonna be a running gag now that every season they'll have Matt hurt really bad in the second episode of the season.

 

So Punisher could have totally finished Daredevil off. He chose not to. That's nice of him?

 

With the costume needing repairs, I wouldn't have minded getting back the black suit for just a little bit. Instead they had Matt wear a hood that didn't really cover his face at all. I guess that's more inconspicuous for walking around in the street, but come on, he was sneaking around breaking into places and looking sketchy as hell anyways, might as well go all out.

[The Crazed Spruce]

BTW:

 

As Murdock recovers from an attack, Foggy and Karen fight to protect their new client from both the law and the Kitchen's newest vigilante.

[pootlus]

Foggy's turn to be bad-ass in this episode.  Didn't see the trap coming.  Punisher really is racking up the corpses.

 

Glad they haven't forgotten Karen's trauma over shooting Wesley, and is it me or is she definitely suspecting something is up both with Matt and the Matt/Foggy conspiracy?  I hope she does some investigation, Ben-style.

[Bec]

Foggy told Karen Matt has a drinking problem. It's actually not a bad cover story. Karen's not falling for the old "I fell and hurt myself", but I think she's still buying the "Matt has a secret drinking problem" story, at least for now. So when she said he could talk to her, she thinks she's trying to get him to confess he's an alcoholic, probably.

[VCRTracking]

The top half of Charlie Cox' body is longer than the bottom half. Just noticed it this episode.

 

The pawnbroker should have just shut up and let the Punisher go. He pretty much got what was coming to him.

[AimingforYoko]

The pawnbroker should have just shut up and let the Punisher go. He pretty much got what was coming to him.

Frank knew he was a scumbag and was willing to let it slide, then the idiot had to bring up the child porn. Talk about misreading your customer.

[Danny Franks]

Oh man, how good was that scene with the Punisher in the pawn shop? So freaking tense, and you just knew that things were going to go south. As soon as the guy said "she's barely twelve. Guaranteed" he was done.

Matt losing his hearing was a scary moment. Can't imagine how awful that would be for a blind guy. And how bad must his headache have been after being shot in the head? It was nice to see Melvin again, and his honest concern for Daredevil.

I really liked Karen again. Scared out of her mind and guilty over killing Wesley, but still able to support both Matt and Foggy. She's definitely too smart for them to keep lying to her, that's for sure. They're layering the sexual tension between her and Matt quite heavily.

I like them openly addressing the danger of copycats and the blurring of right and wrong in vigilantism. Jon Bernthal does crazy so very well. And he does scary really well too. Presumably they'll have their first, 'we're not so different, you and i' chat in episode 3.

Foggy smacking down the DA was great. He's pretty awesome when he plays the tough lawyer.

I have to say, I don't care about Grotto, but Karen giving him the finger was fantastic. Not even sure what happened to him. Did he escape?

Wasn't keen on the fight scene under gunfire bit. All those sharpshooters, all completely unable to hit anything. Hate the cliffhanger, though. Because I don't have time to watch another episode tonight.

[Cthulhudrew]

Just started watching, but caught a Jessica Jones reference (Mahoney: "Want me to tell you what Clemons used to say?" Sniff. RIP, Detective Clemons.)

[Cthulhudrew]

Silly pawnbroker. Sometimes it is best to stop when you're ahead.

 

All in all, another good episode (and I'm going to have to watch the next one, at least until they stop with the cliffhangers!). I do kind of wonder at the over-elaborateness of Frank's plan, though. If he was already on the water tank, why bother with all the rest of it? Why not just pop Grotto when he slipped through the fence? (I'm sure it wouldn't be tough to fanwank a reason, but the way it was depicted, it just seemed unnecessary.)

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, I decided to watch the next one. It was inevitable. 

 

I love when they let Foggy be a badass lawyer. He might be the goofy comic relief at times, but he is also really good at his job, and he knows when its time to stop making jokes, and get serious. More comedy relief best friend characters could learn from him. His worry, but also his frustration, with Matt is really interesting. He gets why Matt is doing what he is doing, but he still hates that it requires him to put himself in danger all the time. New York in the MCU is dangerous enough without putting on a costume and looking for bad guys to beat up, after all. 

 

Grotto is growing on me a lot. He has a good combination of low level slimeball, but is still likable enough that I hope the Punisher does not kill him. Plus Karen flipping him off was hilarious. Love you Karen!

 

Couple of Jessica Jones references here and there, I wonder how many more we are going to get. Oh, how I am looking forward to the meeting of Jessica and Matt! 

Edited March 19, 2016 by tennisgurl

[WendyCR72]

Foggy finding a wounded Matt at the beginning, you could practically taste poor Foggy's fear. He's a damned great friend to Matt.

 

I loved seeing Foggy acting badass with Reyes, going so far as to getting the US Attorney on the phone - and not just bluffing. It was awesome. Also, Pawn Shop Dude should have just shut up when ol' "Punisher" was leaving. Live by the sleazy sword, die by the sleazy sword, I guess.

 

Matt losing his hearing? Freaking chilling.

 

This is awesome so far except...damn it, it's clear the show wants this, and they have fans, but there is no "there" for me where Matt/Karen are concerned. At least there is a lot to like to offset that!

[thuganomics85]

Hey, they brought in Reyes/Michelle Hurd from Jessica Jones!  That's a nice touch with having the Netflix shows be intertwined.  And makes me yearn for the day when Nelson and Murdock get a case that somehow causes them to cross paths with Hogarth.  I can only imagine what would happen if those three were in a room together.  Loved Foggy standing up to her, although not as much as Karen did.  I suspect Matt/Karen is where this show is heading, but I'm pretty sure Foggy does something for Karen whenever he goes full-blown badass attorney on someone.

 

No surprise that Matt survives, but that gunshot sure seem to fuck him up in one of the worst ways possible.  Screw up his hearing?  Yeah, that would be bad for anyone, but when you are blind and you spend your evenings using your other senses to fight crime (or crazy-ass vigilantes), then hearing is something you really need.  I can only imagine what Frank has in store for him.

 

Speaking of Frank, that pawnbroker so walked himself into that one.  I wonder if it ended with the bat or if Frank found other ways to, well, "punish" him.

 

Glad that Karen clearly isn't over what happened with Wesley.  That still was one of the craziest, most awesome things to happen last season, even if I enjoyed Wesley as the smug, loyal lackey he was.

 

Grotto lives for another day, although I wonder if he has any kind of plan or is just going to keep running until he gets out of the city (or state.)

 

Foggy clearly freaking out over "Daredevil" showing up and then running outside after just telling Karen to stay, certainly seemed noticed by her.  I wonder if she's going to start getting more suspicious over how he and Matt are acting, and notice a connection between them, Matt's "drinking problems", and Daredevil.

[blueray]

I really hope that Karen puts the two together soon. I feel like she could look over Ben's notes and realize that he seemed to have figured out who Daredevil is. And of course in this episode Foggy's reaction was obvious.

[Kel Varnsen]

I think the head injury not only screwed up not only his hearing but maybe his inner ear sense of balance too so extra scary.

One thing i found kind of interesting way how Matt/Foggy were talking how the Punisher was a byproduct of Daredevik being a vigilante. But in that situation where does Tony Stark fit in as far as blame?

[Danny Franks]

One thing i found kind of interesting way how Matt/Foggy were talking how the Punisher was a byproduct of Daredevik being a vigilante. But in that situation where does Tony Stark fit in as far as blame?

 

While this is probably a bit of a whitewash that lets them pin the blame on Matt rather than the movie characters, I think there is an explanation for that.

 

Daredevil is really the first guy in this Marvel movie universe who we've seen actively going after street level criminals and gangs, rather than dealing with larger than life threats. Tony built the Iron Man suit to take down the warlords in Afghanistan who were using his weapons to kill civilians, and then further used it to combat other forms of terrorist threat. You can draw a line from that to the Punisher, but it's a bit of a wavy one. Daredevil is just one short jump away, given that last season he was actively fighting against the Russians, the Chinese and the Japanese gangs. The Punisher is what many would consider the logical progression from violent but non-lethal vigilante justice.

 

I really hope that Karen puts the two together soon. I feel like she could look over Ben's notes and realize that he seemed to have figured out who Daredevil is. And of course in this episode Foggy's reaction was obvious.

 

 

I'll be disappointed if Karen doesn't figure it out before the end of the season, really. Because Foggy is being way too obvious, and she has to be able to put 'Matt is never around when Daredevil is' and 'Matt always has these new injuries that he won't explain' along with that and come up with the right answer. I'd like to see her being all, 'I know you're him, I just don't know how.'

[CletusMusashi]

But he can't be Daredevil.He wears sunglasses.

If Daredevil wore sunglasses at night, he wouldn't be able to see!

[Mars477]

Frank knew he was a scumbag and was willing to let it slide, then the idiot had to bring up the child porn. Talk about misreading your customer.

Plus, this is AFTER he sells his self defense shotgun to the guy. While he is acting shady as fuck.

Why would you offer to sell some random stranger child porn, anyways? That wasn't very smart.

[hincandenza]

Really enjoying the new season so far, and especially the intertwined world-building they do across MCU properties.

I did have one question: did anyone else notice how different Melvin was from last season? Last season, the way he talked and behaved, he seemed almost like a developmentally disabled savant who had some special gift for making super armor, but here seemed just like a sympathetic thug who helps DD because he helped keep his sister safe from Kingpin. I think I read in the forums last season that he is a known character in the DD universe, so I'm curious how we're supposed to read his character.

[Bec]

Yeah, I did notice Melvin is not acting the same as last season. Maybe someone feels like developmentally disabled is not the right way to portray him. Like maybe it somehow doesn't fit with some future plans for the character? Who knows. He's a minor enough character that it doesn't really feel like a huge problem, but, yeah, it was noticeable.

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable that Karen wouldn't figure out Matt is Daredevil. We just think it seems obvious because we know everything. But from Karen's perspective, Matt is always playing up the "clumsy blind guy" act around her, so it would be a huge leap for her to connect him with fisty-cuffy Daredevil.

[JBC344]

Really enjoying the new season so far, and especially the intertwined world-building they do across MCU properties.

I did have one question: did anyone else notice how different Melvin was from last season? Last season, the way he talked and behaved, he seemed almost like a developmentally disabled savant who had some special gift for making super armor, but here seemed just like a sympathetic thug who helps DD because he helped keep his sister safe from Kingpin. I think I read in the forums last season that he is a known character in the DD universe, so I'm curious how we're supposed to read his character.

I noticed that as well. I will say though that I think they just toned it down from last season as opposed to gotten rid of that aspect of his character.  I caught a little bit of it in some of his dialog with this episode.  I'm curious on his portrayal moving forward.

[Kel Varnsen]

I think it's perfectly reasonable that Karen wouldn't figure out Matt is Daredevil. We just think it seems obvious because we know everything. But from Karen's perspective, Matt is always playing up the "clumsy blind guy" act around her, so it would be a huge leap for her to connect him with fisty-cuffy Daredevil.

Yea I think even if she had some tiny inkling that Matt might be daredevil, her own denial (how many people are there in NYC) plus any pre-conceived notions about Matt would pretty much get rid of that idea. It is like Walter White and his brother in law from Breaking Bad. Once you have an idea in your head about what someone is like it would be pretty hard to accept them as something completely different.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Really enjoying the new season so far, and especially the intertwined world-building they do across MCU properties.

I did have one question: did anyone else notice how different Melvin was from last season? Last season, the way he talked and behaved, he seemed almost like a developmentally disabled savant who had some special gift for making super armor, but here seemed just like a sympathetic thug who helps DD because he helped keep his sister safe from Kingpin. I think I read in the forums last season that he is a known character in the DD universe, so I'm curious how we're supposed to read his character.

 

Yeah, there was a difference. I suppose one could chalk it up to Melvin being a) more worried about Betsy's welfare and b) less comfortable with any strangers, and DD in particular, in his S1 appearances.

 

Betsy is not his sister. Or at least, she hasn't been defined as such in the tv show and that was not her role in the comics. For details about the comic version of Melvin and Betsy, click the spoiler link.

 

Melvin in the comics is one of DD's best-known original foes, Gladiator. As I recall, he was portrayed at different times as being perfectly normal mentally, the sort of developmentally disabled that he seemed to be first season, and delusional to the point where he believed he was a literal Roman gladiator. Betsy in the comics started off as one of Melvin's social workers. He developed feelings for her, and I believe the two eventually dated and got married.

 

Yeah, I did notice Melvin is not acting the same as last season. Maybe someone feels like developmentally disabled is not the right way to portray him. Like maybe it somehow doesn't fit with some future plans for the character? Who knows. He's a minor enough character that it doesn't really feel like a huge problem, but, yeah, it was noticeable.

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable that Karen wouldn't figure out Matt is Daredevil. We just think it seems obvious because we know everything. But from Karen's perspective, Matt is always playing up the "clumsy blind guy" act around her, so it would be a huge leap for her to connect him with fisty-cuffy Daredevil.

There was a scene toward the end of the S1 finale that made it seem as though Karen had figured it out, though. 

 

And Karen has heard Daredevil enough times where I think she could have figured it out. Matt as DD doesn't really bother to try and change his voice at all.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Chicago Redshirt

[Danny Franks]

I noticed that as well. I will say though that I think they just toned it down from last season as opposed to gotten rid of that aspect of his character.  I caught a little bit of it in some of his dialog with this episode.  I'm curious on his portrayal moving forward.

 

That's how I saw it too. The childish naivety was still there when he said that he thought they had a deal that he would make Daredevil protective gear and Daredevil would keep him and his sister safe. But it was definitely toned down. However, without watching the episodes from last season, I feel like Melvin was more 'zoned in' when he talked about building things, so maybe it was just a case of that, here.

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable that Karen wouldn't figure out Matt is Daredevil. We just think it seems obvious because we know everything. But from Karen's perspective, Matt is always playing up the "clumsy blind guy" act around her, so it would be a huge leap for her to connect him with fisty-cuffy Daredevil.

 

As things stand, I agree that her reaching that conclusion is a stretch. But if they keep dropping enough hints, like they did in this episode, then she should be getting much closer to figuring it out. Yeah, there's always the argument that the love interest character never has as much info as the viewers, and so shouldn't be expected to figure it out, but Karen has showed an ability to put information together and uncover the truth. Even if she's not that interested in who Daredevil is, she is incredibly interested in finding out what's going on with Matt.

[Chaos Theory]

What I like about some of the "darker" superhero stories is they don't suger coat what these people are. What is the is the difference between Daredevil and The Punisher? They are both vigalantees, one kills one doesn't but are both essentially the same animal?

I am not sure I wouldn't come up with the same conclusion Katen did. She is essentially a good person who wants to clean up her home and at first she thought the Daredevil was doing that but seeing the more violent Punisher she is no longer sure.

As for her figuring out Matt is the Daredevil it is a bit of a leap from clumsy blind drunk to vigilante. She would need to witness Matt doing something he shouldn't be able to do or something that doesn't make sense. Maybe....I can see starting to put the Peices together by the end of the season. She is a smart and perceptive girl but so far I don't have any problems with her not knowing.

[Kel Varnsen]

While this is probably a bit of a whitewash that lets them pin the blame on Matt rather than the movie characters, I think there is an explanation for that.

 

Daredevil is really the first guy in this Marvel movie universe who we've seen actively going after street level criminals and gangs, rather than dealing with larger than life threats. Tony built the Iron Man suit to take down the warlords in Afghanistan who were using his weapons to kill civilians, and then further used it to combat other forms of terrorist threat. You can draw a line from that to the Punisher, but it's a bit of a wavy one. Daredevil is just one short jump away, given that last season he was actively fighting against the Russians, the Chinese and the Japanese gangs.

It is a bit more of a strech for sure but Tony is still the first modern person who got famous using his special skills or powers to take the law into his own hands.

[Actionmage]

Tony built the Iron Man suit to take down the warlords in Afghanistan who were using his weapons to kill civilians, and then further used it to combat other forms of terrorist threat. You can draw a line from that to the Punisher, but it's a bit of a wavy one.

 

 

Where are the CopyCaps? The guys who want to emulate the largely non-powered Captain America?  Why aren't we hearing about guys running around in red, whit and blue chainmail or Kevlar and whomping on street crooks and thugs?  Cap was known to be a real guy in the 40s and has recently returned. ( I bet some folks believe he's not the original one but a clone or an official CopyCap, at least in the MCU.)  Or Hawkeyes?

 

Foggy and the whole Dogs Of War sequence? Had me yelling at my TV.  I love this show.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Plus, this is AFTER he sells his self defense shotgun to the guy. While he is acting shady as fuck.

Why would you offer to sell some random stranger child porn, anyways? That wasn't very smart.

Maybe he has the black market equivalent of Amazon's data telling him "People who bought this item also bought Jared Fogle's 'Eat Fresh' videos."

 

More seriously, the average person who got solicited would either say yes or no. They're not going to tell the cops because they'd engaged in illegal sales and wouldn't want to draw attention to it. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Where are the CopyCaps? The guys who want to emulate the largely non-powered Captain America?  Why aren't we hearing about guys running around in red, whit and blue chainmail or Kevlar and whomping on street crooks and thugs?  Cap was known to be a real guy in the 40s and has recently returned. ( I bet some folks believe he's not the original one but a clone or an official CopyCap, at least in the MCU.)  Or Hawkeyes?

 

 

Cap was famous for being a soldier rather than going after street level crime. Indeed, we haven't seen real Cap go after street-level crime, just terrorist threats and Avenger-level world-shaking missions. In the MCU, Hulk was apparently an attempt to duplicate his abilities. In Jessica Jones,

Sampson is also a Cap wannabe whose comic nickname is Nuke.

[Actionmage]

Cap was famous for being a soldier rather than going after street level crime. Indeed, we haven't seen real Cap go after street-level crime, just terrorist threats and Avenger-level world-shaking missions.

 

I was responding to the poster that was talking about Stark and the wavy line to Frank Castle. Tony built a supersuit that not many average Joes could build. Yes, I think most of us get the fact that those in the Avengers aren't (usually) engaged in everyday, "small time" crime.

 

I was saying that Cap and Hawkeye present as "average" guys. We, the audience, know that they are not only well-trained, but in Cap's case, he is chemically enhanced. They look like almost anyone else, as opposed to a rich man that has access to the most bleeding edge tech available- if he didn't invent it himself.  Or a Norse god. Or an angry green man with muscles like whoa. With Captain America, in particular, where are the emulators, the actual regular Joes, who are inspired by Cap in Winter Soldier to take out threats, just not to the country? They want to keep their neighborhood safe. Their kids' school's neighborhood safe. Where they work, too.

 

Yeah, the show's Daredevil, and I am loving the Frank/Matt philosophical debating. It's something Matt needs, to keep  him honest in his own mind. But the show wants to, imo, over-emphasize Matt's complicity in "creating" the copycat Devils and (seemingly) folks like Frank. I feel it is unfair to Matt, but narratively, I get it.

 

edited to remove unnecessary potential movie spoiler; sorry if that happened.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Actionmage

[Primetimer]

Wired shut, that is. Thanks, Punisher!

Read the story

[Kel Varnsen]

I was responding to the poster that was talking about Stark and the wavy line to Frank Castle. Tony built a supersuit that not many average Joes could build. Yes, I think most of us get the fact that those in the Avengers aren't (usually) engaged in everyday, "small time" crime.

 

I was saying that Cap and Hawkeye present as "average" guys. We, theķ audience, know that they are not only well-trained, but in Cap's case, he is chemically enhanced. They look like almost anyone else, as opposed to a rich man that has access to the most bleeding edge tech available- if he didn't invent it himself.  Or a Norse god. Or an angry green man with muscles like whoa. With Captain America, in particular, where are the emulators, the actual regular Joes, who are inspired by Cap in Winter Soldier to take out threats, just not to the country? They want to keep their neighborhood safe. Their kids' school's neighborhood safe. Where they work, too.

 

Yeah, the show's Daredevil, and I am loving the Frank/Matt philosophical debating. It's something Matt needs, to keep  him honest in his own mind. But the show wants to, imo, over-emphasize Matt's complicity in "creating" the copycat Devils and (seemingly) folks like Frank. I feel it is unfair to Matt, but narratively, I get it.

 

edited to remove unnecessary potential movie spoiler; sorry if that happened.

Speaking of cooycats i wonder if we are ever going to get a true daredevil origin episode. I mean we know how he got his powers and training, but it seems from flashbacks that it was years between him learning to fight and him becoming the Devil of Hells Kitchen. What took him so long?

[JustaPerson]

I believe Matt recounted what finally drove him to start beating up bad guys in 1x10

[Dandesun]

He did. He explained it all to Foggy. He heard a father sexually abusing his young daughter and he couldn't listen to it one more night.

 

That was a great episode and it was harrowing in a way... to think of all the things that Matt hears... he just couldn't ignore it anymore. It doesn't matter if it's in daylight as a lawyer or night as a vigilante, Matt cannot ignore what's out there. He can't shut down and I think that's where his constant battle with killing/no killing comes from, too.

 

He can't ignore that crap, even within himself.

[AudienceofOne]

This is awesome so far except...damn it, it's clear the show wants this, and they have fans, but there is no "there" for me where Matt/Karen are concerned. At least there is a lot to like to offset that!

 

Me either but there's a lot of awesome wrapped around it so I'll forgive it. It'd just be nice to have one vehicle where the only main female character isn't lusting after the male hero. I'd have been happy if Hermione ended up with neither Harry nor Ron myself.

[Anela]

On 3/18/2016 at 5:06 PM, VCRTracking said:

 

The pawnbroker should have just shut up and let the Punisher go. He pretty much got what was coming to him.

 

On 3/18/2016 at 5:32 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Frank knew he was a scumbag and was willing to let it slide, then the idiot had to bring up the child porn. Talk about misreading your customer.

I must admit, I'm having a bit of trouble disliking the Punisher, because of this. Just a bit. 

I love Foggy, and wish that Karen would get together with him.