Season 2 Discussion - The Sky is Black

[Agent Dark]

She did remind me of Sara Lance from Arrow but we were able to dig a lot deeper into her character and why she is the way she is.

That got me thinking about an Elektra/Nyssa al Ghul crossover team-up.  That would be awesome.

[Kel Varnsen]

Anyone know what the timeline for season 2 was, with respect to season 1 and the MCU in general. I remember reading on the Jessica Jones page that season 1 of that show took place before Age of Ultron happened. So what about Daredevil, before or after Ultron tried to drop a city from the sky?

[KaleyFirefly]

Yea I was confused about that too. Like does she have experience writing? What if her article is terrible? At first I thought the newspaper was just going to use her as a PI/researcher but I guess not?

Yeah apparently you can get a job as a reporter with no experience...and your own office...and no direction from your boss other than "write your own truth."

Edited March 29, 2016 by KaleyFirefly

[peachmangosteen]

So, I personally didn't like season 1. I found it dreadfully boring and I barely cared about or liked any of the characters and all my opinions were the opposite of everyone I knew that watched. I almost didn't even watch s2 because I put the first ep on and was so bored I couldn't finish it. But then I kept seeing people talking about Frank/Karen and that is my type of shit so I decided to give it another shot. And boy am I glad I did because I straight-up loved this season. 100 times better than s1 imo.

 

I actually ended up loving Foggy so much and I borderline hated him in s1. Same for Karen.

[Rina99]

Glad to see so much love for Season 2 here.  The reviews were kind of mixed, but I found it just as compelling as Season 1, in different ways.  I liked that there was still some of the crime noir feel even as they introduced mystical ninjas into the mix.  Some people felt that Matt was a hypocrite, but I guess I just understand how much he was struggling to keep his own demons in, and felt that his wanting Frank and Elektra not to default to killing was a lot about needing to believe that he wasn't wrong to try and place value on human life, even if said human life was trying to kill you.  

 

To be honest, I was kind of relieved when Karen, Matt, and Foggy split, if only so that Matt could get some breathing room to work out his issues.  As much as I like Foggy and Matt's friendship, there as only so many "OMG, Matt, what are you doing, you'll get killed!!!!" conversations I can take.  If working somewhere else can give them the distance to let Foggy allow Matt to do his thing without lecturing him every episode, I'm good with it.  And I don't particularly care about Karen, so whatever with her.

[GHScorpiosRule]

To be honest, I was kind of relieved when Karen, Matt, and Foggy split, if only so that Matt could get some breathing room to work out his issues.  As much as I like Foggy and Matt's friendship, there as only so many "OMG, Matt, what are you doing, you'll get killed!!!!" conversations I can take.  If working somewhere else can give them the distance to let Foggy allow Matt to do his thing without lecturing him every episode, I'm good with it.  And I don't particularly care about Karen, so whatever with her.

 

 

Agree. I mean, Matt managed to do all those crime fighting things before Foggy found out, and he survived them! It's kind of like when a character has been doing dangerous things without any interference, or when I read a book, a heroine has lived on her own, no problems, knows how to use a gun, etc., but once others, or the hero, find out how dangerous it is, all of a sudden, they're vulnerable and don't know how to take care of themselves. It irks me to no end. And I find myself yelling, both at the teevee screen and the book page, "They were doing FINE until you found out!!!!"

 

But I really do want Matt and Foggy to make up. I know he's a very isolated character, but dayam, he needs his bud. I don't give any figgedity or bluedilly fucks about Karen.

[Dandesun]

The whole no killing thing is often littered throughout the comic books. "X-Men don't kill! (Except for Wolverine.)" "Avengers don't kill!" I mean, I get the concept in the comic books because you're writing about super heroes and such. The thing is, on going serials always go through a seriously grimdark period. (The X-Men in the early 80s? Holy shit.) And that's when such morality is often explored in the pages of the books.

 

But comics also have a long history with death's revolving door. Whether it's cosmic forces, clones, mystic means, life model decoys or just a big fat fakeout...

 

In the MCU, Captain America is the goodest good guy who ever gooded... but he's also a soldier and he kills the enemy. He never seems to show any hesitation about it. The only thing that gives him pause is Bucky and that's because there's a lot of baggage and guilt and surprise wrapped up in that. But Cap has thrown Hydra guys through propellers or just kicked them off of the Hellicarrier or off of ships. He's ricocheted bullets off his shield to take guys out, too. In the meantime, he's extremely dedicated to saving as many innocent lives as possible. I think, though, that it's an interesting comparison to make.

 

Matt doesn't want to kill anyone and I get that. He's torn between worlds... trying to work within the confines of the justice system by day and taking out the trash (non-fatality we're to be believed) at night. And, really, I don't take too much issue with Matt taking matters into his own hands regarding sexual predators. Not even remotely. Fuck those guys. But he does try his best to make it possible for the police to apprehend various criminals so they can face their time in court. But he also struggles with that.

 

Frank is on a very very personal mission. And he's also a soldier so he goes into it as he would battle. The man who can get up is the man who can live to fight you again. The thing is that Frank is more concerned with taking out the various mobs and gangs than he is 'protecting' anyone. He doesn't go after the innocent but, in his view, the guilty are his prime directive, so to speak.

 

Cap is a soldier so he goes to war, too. But he was created by the SSR for the war effort, he was revived by SHIELD and given the mission by Nick Fury to go after Loki and the Tesseract, and he worked for SHIELD specifically after that... until he figured out how corrupt it was and took SHIELD/Hydra down by blowing it up and dropping it in the Potomac River. And Cap's going to be taken to task for the destruction that happens while he's, you know, trying to save the world. 

 

It's just interesting to me that in the big movies, you don't see the heroes worried about killing bad guys. They are in a 'stop them, they will destroy everything and everyone they can' mode. Matt being so concerned is because, I presume, he works on a much smaller scale. And, really, Jessica Jones was pretty determined to not kill as well... until she absolutely had to. (And I don't judge her for that decision, either.)

 

It's one reason I'd love to see those two sit down and talk. Jessica probably leans more towards Matt's side of things except that, thus far, Matt hasn't come across anyone super powered... unless you count Nobu and I really don't know what to think there. The Hand may be magic ninjas but I don't think Matt's fully aware of that. The whole silent heartbeat thing could easily be explained as serious chi abilities and, as a martial artist himself, Matt can buy that. Resurrection pods? That's a whole new kettle of fish. But Jessica did everything she could to try to keep Kilgrave alive so that the people he victimized could get their own justice... and so she could prove that he even existed... up until the point where she had no choice. She even hesitated to kill him at times she had the opportunity because she didn't know what his death would do to his victims... it was really messy.

 

But after the scene where Matt thinks that 'just this once' he and Frank could team up and take the bad guys out and Frank protects Matt's morality because Frank just doesn't believe that you can dance back and forth across the line... well, Jessica might beg to differ. But, again, I think her view of things tends to align more with Matt's. There is a part of her that wants to help even as that part of her wound up being the part that resulted in Kilgrave getting a hold of her in the first place. She still 'occasionally gives a damn.' Matt... might give a little too much of a damn.

 

Anyway, I like to compare and contrast.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Dandesun

[WendyCR72]

I liked this season, as I said above, but in retrospect, S1 was much tighter and much more cohesive writing and storywise, IMO. If there is a S3, I wonder if there's any chance in hell of Steven DeKnight returning. He seemed like the brains behind S1 and the show was better for it.

 

Some of the loose threads this season just made some points seem rather disjointed.

[ulkis]

It's just interesting to me that in the big movies, you don't see the heroes worried about killing bad guys. They are in a 'stop them, they will destroy everything and everyone they can' mode. Matt being so concerned is because, I presume, he works on a much smaller scale. And, really, Jessica Jones was pretty determined to not kill as well... until she absolutely had to. (And I don't judge her for that decision, either.)

 

I think it's also partly for the meta reason that tv shows have more time to deal with being worried about killing the bad guys. With movies, it's you've got two hours, no time to worry about the friggin' red shirts, heh.

 

But Jessica did everything she could to try to keep Kilgrave alive so that the people he victimized could get their own justice... and so she could prove that he even existed... up until the point where she had no choice. She even hesitated to kill him at times she had the opportunity because she didn't know what his death would do to his victims... it was really messy.

 

But after the scene where Matt thinks that 'just this once' he and Frank could team up and take the bad guys out and Frank protects Matt's morality because Frank just doesn't believe that you can dance back and forth across the line... well, Jessica might beg to differ.

 

I don't think Jessica wanted to keep Kilgrave alive out of any kindness or morality or mercy though . . . for the reasons you said and because for him, death was too easy. But maybe I'm projecting.

I definitely thought he could have stood to suffer a bit more.

[marcee]

By the end of the season, the whole "can't kill bad guys" thing got very very old. Especially when it was shown in the finale that The Hand has practically an infinite number of soldiers at its disposal. What's the purpose of just injuring them or knocking them out for a few hours? How does that fix or solve anything ever? I suppose that was the point of the season...pitting the Punisher's "permanent" justice against Matt's "I'll just be out in a month" justice. But it does just make Matt look stupid and inconsequential in the scheme of things. Fight the good fight, save an innocent, get beat up, rinse and repeat - until you or another innocent (like the nurse) dies. I would ultimately love for him to update his moral code to become more effective, but I feel like that's kind of the point of his character. Still, it's already old and we're only in season 2. I'd like to see more Daredevil but if the stakes are only getting higher and the bad guys are only getting worse, at what point do we move on from this rinse and repeat? It's not fun anymore.

[FurryFury]

I don't think Jessica wanted to keep Kilgrave alive out of any kindness or morality or mercy though

 

Yep. She had a good enough reason. She didn't do it out of the goodness of her heart. I think Jessica is, above all, pragmatic. She has a good heart but she's way too cynical to buy into Matt's Catholic redemption stuff. Especially when nobody in MCU - even, say, Cap - does anything like that. 

 

By the end of the season, the whole "can't kill bad guys" thing got very very old.

 

I think it got old way back in season one, but that's just me. 

[Dandesun]

I don't think Jessica wanted to keep Kilgrave alive out of any kindness or morality or mercy though . . . for the reasons you said and because for him, death was too easy. But maybe I'm projecting.

I definitely thought he could have stood to suffer a bit more.

 

Initially, she needed him alive in order to prove what he had done to her and to Hope as well as to countless others. She needed him alive in order to exonerate Hope. After she killed herself, it became more of an issue of putting this guy down so he couldn't continue his reign of terror. I agree it wasn't out of morality save for what she was trying to do for Hope.

 

But Jessica crossing that line doesn't mean she can't come back and do her best to keep from killing others. Kilgrave was unusual in that he was a bad guy with powers and that's not something Matt has really dealt with. (Magical ninjas notwithstanding.)

[FurryFury]

Thing is, both Matt and Frank are essentially looking for easy answers in regards to killing, or rather executing and forgiving. But the truth is there ain't any. Every time you fight a bad guy you have to decide for yourself if he's worth leaving alive or if he should be done away with for good. And you have to live with the consequences. This is what both of them are afraid of - Matt's terrified of killing a person who could be redeemed, Frank with not killing a person who would live to cause untold damage. I want the writing to reflect that, personally. Both of them may hide under their convictions, yes, but it's actually pretty personal and subjective for both of them. And I would want for both of them to face it and to realize it, eventually.

Edited March 30, 2016 by FurryFury

[Grumpymonkey]

I had a hard time with season one. I know its get a lot of praise but I thought it was painfully boring at times. Season two while it wasn't as cohesive kept my attention the entire time, I actually watched the whole series in two days. I thought I'd watch an episode a week and instead I powered through. The first few episodes I thought were fantastic, JB as Frank Castle was such a revelation to me. When I heard he was cast, I though "eh," and he and his story really where the best parts of this season for me. I also enjoyed the trial and getting to see Foggy do his legal thing, wish Matt had more of a part there. I thought EY was good as Elektra too but was confused by the hand and black sky stuff and usually wanted to go back to the trial/Frank's story.  I did a complete 180 on Karen this season, thought she was awesome and was looking forward to her scenes. Liked Claire and Foggy meeting too, I don't like when everyone is so separated. As always good fight scenes tho watching so many episodes in a row they can all blend together and get a tiny bit redundant after awhile.  All in all, I really enjoyed this season.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Grumpymonkey

[Actionmage]

One thing that bugged me about this season was the eager willingness to simply drop plot threads. Karen breaks into Frank Castle's suburban home, some electronic device notifies some people in a van to hop to, plot forgotten. And the Punisher's lair got broken into at least twice but no one cared. Wilson Fisk has a prominent role but once his part in the story is done we never hear from him again. And for what it is worth I honestly don't think the show established why Frank's former commanding officer would get into the drug trade and would destroy all the competition.

 

But are they really?

* Karen didn't know that she triggered the motion detector, or else why would she have taken the leisurely stroll through Lisa's bedroom/the kids' playroom? Karen is surprised by the black panel van that arrives and MiB get out.  Either that is tied to The Blacksmith or what The Blacksmith hinted at before Frank shot him.

 

*The Punisher's lairs were always disposable to Frank. They were where he could get a bit of rest and work on what he needed. He was even okay that his van was blown-up to take out more of the Kitchen Irish. Not so much a dropped thread as an example of how isolated Frank was.  That he looked gut-punched by the dog's dognapping, imo, more than his place being found out told me more about Castle than yet another fight.  You want a dropped plot point from this, though? What's up with the dog, Marvel!? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

* Mr. Fisk had an important forwarding of his plot, but I would not say it was prominent. Especially as it was supposed to be subtle and behind-the-scenes. Foggy, the audience mouthpiece, thought Matt was being a bit paranoid bring up the possibility that Fisk worked to ensure that Frank was within his area of influence, but had also made sure that Frank was able to escape prison. I was thrilled at getting time with Wilson; VOD is a fun actor. He seems to have fun playing all the notes Wilson Fisk affords. But he wasn't prominent. Claire was more prominent. I also don't believe that Wilson Fisk is going to be any kind of dropped plot point in this series.

 

*Frank's origin needed updating from the Vietnam era. A small number of soldiers turn to outside methods to boost their paychecks. Then again, some folks are just greedy. I kicked myself for not putting the general's testimony on Frank's service in the Middle East with the drug problem in NYC. Why would a greedy man with devoted followers/muscle turn down the chance to make Big Bucks from illegal drugs? A man eventually shown to feel entitled to the cash. There was no regret in selling the drugs. As to destroying the competition, that's what ruthless, money-grubbing villains do.  I also believe there needed to be a straight-forward villainy villain, to off-set the existential stuff with Punisher and Elektra.  Frank and Elektra yakked about their positions, along with Matt. The general just sold drugs, killed competitors, got Madame Gao's attention, and egged Frank on to kill, pussycat, kill, kill. Short of twirling a mustache, The Blacksmith was an easy villain to root against. 

 

As with the house/van/MiBs, that was, I  am betting, a potential story for either a Punisher outing or something for a later Daredevil story, bringing Frank back into Matt's orbit through Karen. But that's pure spec on my part.

 

Just because something isn't addressed immediately or totally in this universe, doesn't automatically mean it is forgotten. If you think something has more story left to it, odds are the writers think it does, too.

 

I enjoyed the majority of the season.   What I hoped it would have- more easily seen fights/ more Foggy- I can be patient and wait for. I was glad that the characters were true to themselves, as painful as that was. I kept waiting for the Tick to pop up and comment on the amount of ninjas on display, though. I was really glad that Claire and Marci were back, as well as Officer-now Detective-Brett. ( I know he has a last name, but I'm awful with last names.)  I continue to enjoy Ellison; he's a funny dude. ( I hope he rejected Karen's trite, bland "Everyone's a hero" as it wasn't anything Ellison charged her with writing. Something unique, that only Karen could write. Maybe she should've had some of her scotch first.) 

[WendyCR72]

The "I don't kill" credo with Matt did get repetitive, but I think it all comes back to his faith. In movies with superheroes, faith doesn't seem like a big deal, but this series has made a framework around it from the very beginning. Even the opening credits are full of such references.

 

And with murder as a sin and all, I can see why Matt stops short. I just hope any change or alteration comes naturally. And, yeah, a bit less of hearing about it - as it did get old - would be nice, too.

[AlliMo]

I loved everything with Frank Castle, and I really enjoyed seeing more growth from Foggy and Karen. I have no quibbles with any of the acting; I just found both Stick and Elektra unbearably tiresome.

 

I binge watched season 1. This season, I got halfway through and just... lost interest. Somehow, they managed to make ninjas boring, and I'm so, so over Matt's unending existential angst.

[WendyCR72]

I binge watched season 1. This season, I got halfway through and just... lost interest. Somehow, they managed to make ninjas boring

 

I think one review of this season was on point in that while they may work in the actual comics, translating the ninjas to the screen was basically not a good idea.

[Bec]

I thought the ninjas were effectively creepy... at first. I mean, they were like silent ghosts that keep sneaking up to scare the crap out of you. Silent ghosts with deadly flying projectiles and sharp, sharp knives.

 

But then after a while they were like whack-a-moles.

[Rai]

Ok, finally finished watching season 2.

 

Punisher was indeed absolutely terrific, and I really loved watching him and Karen bond. I never expected to find Karen Page one of the more interesting characters on the show, but here we are. I also loved seeing Wilson Fisk again. Highlight of the season seeing him with Frank, and also seeing him square off against Matt Murdock.

 

Elektra had great chemistry with Matt in that Catwoman/Batman kind of way. And I loved the most unexpected cameo from Jessica Jones. And the tension was so palpable that I basically assumed something awful was going to happen in every scene (and it usually did).

 

But I think I would have enjoyed a season that was solely about Elektra and the Hand, and then one solely about the Punisher and the mobs. Smashing the two up together didn't quite work for me. I got a little bored with all the mystical ninja stuff in comparison to the Punisher, and the Punisher basically became engaged in his own solo adventure, completely separate from Daredevil. In fact, I hate to say it, but Daredevil became the least interesting character in his own show. When the Punisher showed up at the end of the last episode, I don't even know how he knew to go there or if he helped at all.

 

And Elektra needed more space to matter too. Especially for her ultimate fate.  In the comics, it was just such a big thing.  Here, it didn't have quite the same impact, unfortunately.

 

It's still a great show! But mashing together two excellent storylines weakened them a little. It'll be interesting to see if the Punisher can sustain this level of...um....interest when he's the actual lead character in his own show. Certainly looking forward to finding out.

 

PS: Yaaasss, Clancy Brown. Who by virtue of being cast did tip the character's hand a bit because why else do you cast him?

[Sakura12]

I had a hard time with season one. I know its get a lot of praise but I thought it was painfully boring at times. Season two while it wasn't as cohesive kept my attention the entire time, I actually watched the whole series in two days. 

 

It was the same for me. I always hear the praise that Season 1 gets. It took me forever to finish Season 1 because I was bored with Matt/Daredevil. This season with the addition of the Punisher and Elektra kept my interest up and I finished this season in 3 days. I also didn't get the whole Black Sky, the Hand or the Chaste stuff. But I can ignore stupid plots to just watch the characters. That's what I care about in shows. The plot can do whatever it wants as long as the characters are interesting. 

[FurryFury]

I do care about plotting, actually I care about it a lot, but characters always come first for me as well - I can ignore a bad or mediocre plot if the characters are great, but I can't do the same vice versa. In season 1, I did like the Matt/Foggy/Karen trio (it vaguely reminded me of the starting trio in Angel the series, especially with all the helping the helpless stuff + the obvious noir influences of the show), but it never became anything more. Season two has managed to actually connect with me emotionally, mostly thanks to the Punisher story and Karen's plot (although there are parts of Elektra's story I liked too).

[Trick Question]

Likes....
* The acting was pretty terrific across the board, even if I'm still not totally sold on Elden Henson.  I feel like some of the storylines and dialogue could've gone awry had the performances not been so wonderful at selling them...Bernthal, Woll, Cox, Yung, Dawson, D'Onofrio, everyone tremendous.
* Along these same lines, Cox had great chemistry with both Woll and Yung, really helping sell the 'Karen or Elektra?' choice that Matt faced
* Building  pretty much everything around the Fisk storyline in S1 kind of made the season feel a bit long to me, maybe as if the story couldn't have been told in 10 episodes rather than 13.  (I had the same feeling even moreso about Jessica Jones.)  This season, however, was structured quite well with the Punisher up front, then Elektra's introduction dovetailing around the Punisher trial, then Fisk shows up and we get the greater Hand involvement in the back end when everything all ties up.
* The action scenes, wow 

Dislikes and questions....
* Karen becoming an actual reporter seemed a bit silly, especially the hackneyed nature of his first story.  Having the dollar-store Giamatti editor hold her hand through the whole process was also too much.
* The cops weren't watching the Castle family house the entire time?!?!
* Why was Stephen Rider (ADA Tower) in the opening credits?  Seems like kind of an odd secondary character to make a 'main' character, or else Rider just had a really good agent.  I actually thought it was going to end up that Tower was the Blacksmith, as there was seemingly no other reason for Rider to be so prominent in the cast.  Of course, as soon as Karen went to go see Clancy Brown, it dawned on me since Clancy always plays the villain.

[magdalene]

I binged the second season of this because I had heard Punisher was in it.  Years ago I had watched a Punisher movie - some blond guy was playing Frank Castle - and it certainly left an impression on me.  The brutality and the gore, omg. This series is even more brutal I think.

The whole Frank Castle story line in this was so well acted and compelling that I had a hard time getting into the other story lines, especially the rather bizarre Ninja cult thing.  It didn't help that I found the main character quite irritating at times. He was such a lousy friend and boyfriend.  He and the tedious Electra are perfect for each other, meanwhile his awesome girlfriend had terrific chemistry with Castle.

[Taryn74]

14 minutes ago, magdalene said:

The whole Frank Castle story line in this was so well acted and compelling that I had a hard time getting into the other story lines, especially the rather bizarre Ninja cult thing.  It didn't help that I found the main character quite irritating at times.

Yes!  To all of this.  Frank Castle owned me in S2.

[jeansheridan]

So after The Defenders I am rewatching Season 2. Charlie Cox is so effortlessly athletic in small ways he sells Daredevil's bigger fight scenes. And the ep when he meets Elektra the chemistry is off the charts.

Karen and Claire are both wet blankets for me.It doesn't help that I cannot stand Karen's voice or her nervous energy in scenes when she is excited or anxious. She is no fun to spend time with, ever. And Claire is the highly dull voice of reason nobody listens to because she is dull. 

I still like Froggy and Frank with his square feet amuse me.  

I wish I could appreciate the women more. Serious women who aren't cartoons should be catnip for me but Karen and Claire are so ineffectual. 

[FurryFury]

After Defenders, I just can't stand Elektra and everything about her storyline. She just doesn't feel like a person to be, rather than a cardboard cutout of a character who exists solely for the plot. I don't care about Matt's relationship with either Claire or Karen, but at least they have actual personalities which make sense.

[Captanne]

Hmm -- interesting.  I also watched Defenders first and cannot stand Electra.  I don't like the character and I don't like the actress.  Ugh.  So tired of spindly ninja girls.  (Face it, she behaves like an immature child.  Stick is right to call her "girl".)

I felt a little chemistry between Daredevil and Electra but only from him.  She was a null.

(I'm not complaining, mind you, about electricity generated by a handsome man.)

He delivered such a great "with you I'm alive" cornball speech (come on writers.....admit it, that was corny as hell) and she was a fucking wet noodle.  Awful.

 

(Oddly, I really like Karen and was rooting for that partnership to hit it off because I adore Foggy and wanted Nelson & Murdock -- the law firm -- to work out.  I like the nurse because she is the voice of reason and I find the actress has done an admirable job keeping the character consistent through this, Defenders, and Jessica Jones (or was she in Luke Cage.....I've lost track.)

 

ETA:  Let me add, I like the character of Karen Page so much ("Page", girl reporter, hah!  Get it?) because she is self-actualized.  She is the victim of a terrible trauma, lands on her own feet in Nelson & Murdock from the very outset, creates her own job (not a lawyer), does all the dirty work research, uncovers the amazingly important points, and when the firm folds, lands on her feet again in the press room because of her own God-given talents.  I really like the character.  The actress doesn't bother me at all -- I enjoy that nervous energy.  It suits Karen Page to be ansty all the time.  She sticks up for the indefensible and gets in the muck with them.  I'd have nervous energy, too.  

Edited September 15, 2017 by Captanne

[jah1986]

4 hours ago, Captanne said:

  I like the nurse because she is the voice of reason and I find the actress has done an admirable job keeping the character consistent through this, Defenders, and Jessica Jones (or was she in Luke Cage.....I've lost track.)

Claire, the nurse, played by Rosario Dawson has been in all the DC Comic shows and has been great in all of them. I'm assuming, I still haven't watched Iron Fist.

[johntfs]

On 4/2/2016 at 12:47 PM, Rai said:

Punisher was indeed absolutely terrific, and I really loved watching him and Karen bond. I never expected to find Karen Page one of the more interesting characters on the show,

I admit that after seeing Karen and Frank in this season and in The Punisher I'm a little reluctant to watch Season One of Daredevil because she'd probably a bit more of a damsel that Matt has to save in that one.  I think it's pretty clear at this point that Frank has a deep but quiet love for Karen Page.  I think at least part of the reason Frank showed up at the very end to help out Matt by killing some ninjas was that he'd found out (somehow) that those ninjas had kidnapped/threatened Karen.  If you're a threat to Karen, Frank will kill the shit out of you.

Spoiler

I'm kind of sad that Frank wasn't involved in The Defenders but figure it would have been a much shorter season if had been.  Once he understood that Karen was in danger from The Hand, Frank would killed every last one of those ninja mother-fuckers.  As many times as he had to until it took.  You almost have to wonder why Stick trained Matt when Frank was right there.

Edited January 29, 2018 by johntfs

[blueray]

On 9/13/2017 at 2:49 PM, jah1986 said:

Claire, the nurse, played by Rosario Dawson has been in all the DC Comic shows and has been great in all of them. I'm assuming, I still haven't watched Iron Fist.

Marvel ;). She was in all of the marvel Netflix ones including iron fist.

Edited February 8, 2018 by blueray

[Taryn74]

Hubby and I have been rewatching Daredevil and we just finished up S2 a couple of nights ago. Something that occurred to me this time around is to wonder why, exactly, Matt seems to have such an almost naive world view about the bad guys, especially when you contrast him with Frank.  Is it just because Matt is a lawyer and so he instinctively falls back on the idea that once you bring a bad guy to justice, that your job is done....whereas Frank was/is a soldier (fighting wars where the idea of an honorable defeat is basically a thing of the past - it's all or nothing especially in the wars in the Middle East) and so Frank honestly has a better grasp of the idea that you have to put an enemy down permanently to really be finished with your job?

Thoughts?

[Raja]

On 9/18/2019 at 8:48 PM, Taryn74 said:

Hubby and I have been rewatching Daredevil and we just finished up S2 a couple of nights ago. Something that occurred to me this time around is to wonder why, exactly, Matt seems to have such an almost naive world view about the bad guys, especially when you contrast him with Frank.  Is it just because Matt is a lawyer and so he instinctively falls back on the idea that once you bring a bad guy to justice, that your job is done....whereas Frank was/is a soldier (fighting wars where the idea of an honorable defeat is basically a thing of the past - it's all or nothing especially in the wars in the Middle East) and so Frank honestly has a better grasp of the idea that you have to put an enemy down permanently to really be finished with your job?

Thoughts?

Matt is a devout Catholic and goes with the English translation of the 5th Commandment to an extreme. But then Iron Fist/Danny Rand  and Director MacKenzie on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. are the only other MCU characters that I can think of who have demonstrated any active church life. Even if Stick had Matt in a sort of military prep indoctrination it was the priest and nuns who won the battle for Matt

Of course the super powered like Captain America would actually kill if their blows landed but like the pistol whips to the back of the head from TV and movies as an audience  we pretend that they don't. And it is only recently we add a part of the episode where the hero is suffering from a concussion. But then Matt is sort of unique in joining the Black Widow and Hawkeye of no enhanced strength and just like Barton not firing an arrow into flesh as long as Matt doesn't  use his clubs on a skull

[Affogato]

On 4/1/2016 at 12:59 AM, WendyCR72 said:

 

I think one review of this season was on point in that while they may work in the actual comics, translating the ninjas to the screen was basically not a good idea.

That seems really odd. Ninjas actually exist/existed and make great visuals. I think they were just treated like cannonfodder.

It occurs to me that Foggy probably thought Matt was out with women, but instead he was either practicing parkour or fighting. Therefore Electra is likely the only person he's had sex with...way to imprint. It also occurs to me that, like many of the characters Stan Lee originated Daredevil/Matt would be very good at sex and at the same time make him hyperaware of sexuality. No wonder he needs to beat people up.