The Duggars: In the Media and TLC

[merylinkid]

24 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I just see the Duggar and Bates parents falling prey to Gothard's snake oil. I believe when they started with him the families thought they found the magic pill to raise God's wholesome army while saving souls.

I disagree.    Gil SERVES ON THE BOARD.    He is perpetuating this.   He isn't just some member who got sucked into a cult.   he is part of the leadership that is SUCKING OTHERS IN.   He's not a victim, he's the abuser.

Jim Boob is the same.   Maybe he never got on the board, but he sure spoke out about how wonderful it was.   He went around the country telling people THIS is how you are supposed to live. 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

I disagree.    Gil SERVES ON THE BOARD.    He is perpetuating this.   He isn't just some member who got sucked into a cult.   he is part of the leadership that is SUCKING OTHERS IN.   He's not a victim, he's the abuser.

Jim Boob is the same.   Maybe he never got on the board, but he sure spoke out about how wonderful it was.   He went around the country telling people THIS is how you are supposed to live. 

I'm guessing you didn't read my other post. There is a then and now. Maybe then they were victims and now they're not. Maybe they never were, but I believe they were and possibly some still are.

Also, folks who fall victim to cults also become leaders, but are still under the spell of the cult. That's how it works.

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

That's how I feel too.  It seems they focused on just making "content": a cheap and easily put together product for consumption, rather than anything deeper than surface level. I'd been looking forward to this when it was supposed to be about IBLP as a whole and examining what led it its creation, the man-made rules, the downfall of its creator, and its impact on culture as a whole. etc. Instead, it seems this "documentary" will be on the level of trashy tabloid articles and headlines. Disappointing.  

Maybe if the ratings are good this will be the first of a series of sorts. A docuseries unwrapping IBLP and IFB. One can hope.

[oliviabenson]

Cult is a cult… see Scientology 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, oliviabenson said:

Cult is a cult… see Scientology 

Yup, see Tom Cruise. A leader who shuns his daughter and abuses others, but IMO, even though a despise the guy, he's under the spell of L Ron Hubbard.

[oliviabenson]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Yup, see Tom Cruise. A leader who shuns his daughter and abuses others, but IMO, even though a despise the guy, he's under the spell of L Ron Hubbard.

Apparently Tom wants to date Shakira. 
 

His daughter Suri is lucky she is away from him and his lifestyle.

[quarks]

....in retrospect I probably should have said "lower budget" not "cheaper."

I'm not involved with this production so can't really state how much it cost, but given usual documentary costs/rates, my guess is that this entire docuseries probably cost Amazon Studios somewhere around $3 to $8 million, or less than a single episode of Wheel of Time (reported budget of $10 million per episode) and considerably less than a single episode of Lord of the Rings: Rings of Power (reported budget of about $50 million per episode). 

But lower budget doesn't necessarily mean lower quality. I understand where the comments here are coming from, but I do think it's relevant that the producers behind this documentary/docuseries have won multiple Academy Awards, Golden Globes and Emmys, have been acclaimed by several nonprofit organizations, and do not have a reputation for putting together a "cheap and easily put together product for consumption, rather than anything deeper than surface level" or tabloid level content.

That doesn't, of course, mean that this docuseries will be any good! Just that I'm willing to wait to see it first.

[Future Cat Lady]

I think this documentary will be good and interesting only if they've uncovered new information. If it's just stuff that's already known by the snarkers, there won't be any point to it. It would only be interesting for people who barely know who the Duggars and IFLB are. That might actually be their targeted audience.

[Salacious Kitty]

2 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I think this documentary will be good and interesting only if they've uncovered new information. If it's just stuff that's already known by the snarkers, there won't be any point to it. It would only be interesting for people who barely know who the Duggars and IFLB are. That might actually be their targeted audience.

I think that's how it was ORIGINALLY intended, an exposé on the IBLP featuring the Duggars (and Bates?) as members. But somewhere along the line that apparently changed. Boo!

[quarks]

39 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I think this documentary will be good and interesting only if they've uncovered new information. If it's just stuff that's already known by the snarkers, there won't be any point to it. It would only be interesting for people who barely know who the Duggars and IFLB are. That might actually be their targeted audience.

 

I don't think that's how anyone involved in this (Amazon or the producers) thought of their targeted audience. This was probably pitched as true crime, doc series, 25 - 55 +, general, comped with Making a Murderer, Tiger King, I Survived a Crime, and LulaRich, "From ACADEMY AWARD WINNING PRODUCERS COMES AN ADDICTIVE STORY ABOUT ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST FAMOUS OVERSIZED FAMILIES - AND ITS DANGEROUS SECRETS!"  Or possibly, "FROM ACADEMY AWARD WINNING PRODUCERS - THEY HAD 19 CHILDREN - AND ALMOST AS MANY DEADLY SECRETS." 

So I don't think the question here was how much the audience does or doesn't know about the Duggars (although the usual approach is "assume the audience knows nothing," even for very well known subjects). Instead, it was, how do we get the Tiger King/LulaRich audiences to tune into this?

And the answer to that, with these particular producers (and to a lesser extent, Amazon Studios) was "The narrative. The story."

Which I think makes this less about the release of new information, and more about the presentation of the existing information - can these producers edit/narrate the Duggar story, in three to five neat episodes, each ending with a plot hook of some kind, and turn it into an interesting, absorbing drama? 

Their previous work suggests yes. They've got everything they need - true crime, a couple of genuinely weird characters, at least two or three insiders eager for fame/revenge....I don't know if we'll learn anything new, but I think it might be interesting? Maybe?

Or maybe not!

[Zella]

I think the vast majority of people know nothing about the Duggars, so that's probably a pretty wide audience. I've said this before on here, but I think it bears repeating, there are a lot of people who live in NWA within an hour or so of them, who know much less about them than people on this board do. For every person I know who has met a Duggar or Duggar adjacent person or has an opinion on them, there are 10 more who are like "Is that the family with all those kids?" I can't even imagine how much more true that would be for people who aren't in their general vicinity. 

[SMama]

I know this is not happening but I keep thinking of the picture of Amy and Deanna sipping from cups awhile back. It would be interesting if they were featured in the documentary. Take that JB for talking shit about my mistake of being a single mother. At least my child is not in prison for a heinous crime against children.

[Salacious Kitty]

7 minutes ago, SMama said:

I know this is not happening but I keep thinking of the picture of Amy and Deanna sipping from cups awhile back. It would be interesting if they were featured in the documentary. Take that JB for talking shit about my mistake of being a single mother. At least my child is not in prison for a heinous crime against children.

I seem to recall Famy saying that she wasn't bound by the NDA any longer. This had to be a year ago, so it's entirely possible that she talked to producers when they still called it an exposé on the IBLP. 

[GeeGolly]

3 hours ago, Zella said:

I think the vast majority of people know nothing about the Duggars, so that's probably a pretty wide audience. I've said this before on here, but I think it bears repeating, there are a lot of people who live in NWA within an hour or so of them, who know much less about them than people on this board do. For every person I know who has met a Duggar or Duggar adjacent person or has an opinion on them, there are 10 more who are like "Is that the family with all those kids?" I can't even imagine how much more true that would be for people who aren't in their general vicinity. 

You mean Amazon is not making a documentary for us?? Like how dare they ignore the fact that we exist! 🙃😁😢🤣

[lascuba]

On 5/9/2023 at 9:57 PM, Salacious Kitty said:

UP had an entire season in the can. IIRC, they cancelled no more than two weeks out from the season premiere. No explanation was ever given from either UP or the Bateses. There was the "George Floyd" video, but UP was filming that game of charades, so I assume they saw Carlin filming. If not, and they only found out when Carlin released the video, it could have been a big part of the reason. 

Isn't UP a christian network pandering to the conservative christian market? I find it impossible to believe that they would cancel over the Floyd video. Neither the producers or UP audience would care.

[crazycatlady58]

42 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Isn't UP a christian network pandering to the conservative christian market? I find it impossible to believe that they would cancel over the Floyd video. Neither the producers or UP audience would care.

Not all conservative Christians are racist. If I watched  BUB I would have stopped  watching after that.

[Zella]

They may have been concerned about an advertiser bail-out too. I say this with no knowledge of what ads ran during the show. 

[lascuba]

Did the video make mainstream news? I don't remember hearing anything about it other than here, reddit, and a few blogs.

[Salacious Kitty]

4 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Did the video make mainstream news? I don't remember hearing anything about it other than here, reddit, and a few blogs.

What? This isn't mainstream news? 😂

[GeeGolly]

Yahoo, plus a bunch of little blog type articles came up when I searched, Carlin Bates racist video. I didn't look any farther than what popped up.

Apparently UP isn't conservative enough for Kirk Cameron's sister. Candace Bure was the queen of UP tv but recently switched to another network that would only have shows with "traditional marriages".

[Salacious Kitty]

33 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Yahoo, plus a bunch of little blog type articles came up when I searched, Carlin Bates racist video. I didn't look any farther than what popped up.

Apparently UP isn't conservative enough for Kirk Cameron's sister. Candace Bure was the queen of UP tv but recently switched to another network that would only have shows with "traditional marriages".

Candace never had anything to do with UP. Her beef was with the Hallmark Channel. They were going to show same sex marriages or some such bullshit (in her opinion). Candace basically started a new network, the name of which escapes me. 

Edit: Great American Family Channel

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[CalicoKitty]

Here is an alternate theory:  The Bateses heard about the documentary and decided to drop their show rather than draw attention to their association with IBLP.  Maybe, since Gil is on their board, TPTB in IBLP told them to drop their show to prevent bad publicity.  It seems strange that UP would pull a series that was already in the can.  Although I wonder if the Bateses had that much leverage.  It would be interesting to know exactly what happened.  I think it is strange that there was no statement or complaint from the Bates family.  They seemed to go away much to quietly.

Edited May 12, 2023 by CalicoKitty
corrected typing error

[Salacious Kitty]

Small correction: it's IBLP. Institute in Basic Life Principles. 

[CalicoKitty]

25 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Small correction: it's IBLP. Institute in Basic Life Principles. 

OOPS!  Thanks, I'll correct it.  I was typing too fast, I guess.

[Salacious Kitty]

Predictive text on my phone pops it up if I type the first two letters. It knows me so well. 😁

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Candace never had anything to do with UP. Her beef was with the Hallmark Channel. They were going to show same sex marriages or some such bullshit (in her opinion). Candace basically started a new network, the name of which escapes me. 

Edit: Great American Family Channel

 

Right! Hallmark.

[lascuba]

2 hours ago, CalicoKitty said:

Here is an alternate theory:  The Bateses heard about the documentary and decided to drop their show rather than draw attention to their association with IBLP.  Maybe, since Gil is on their board, TPTB in IBLP told them to drop their show to prevent bad publicity.  It seems strange that UP would pull a series that was already in the can.  Although I wonder if the Bateses had that much leverage.  It would be interesting to know exactly what happened.  I think it is strange that there was no statement or complaint from the Bates family.  They seemed to go away much to quietly.

I always thought it had to be something huge...not Josh-indicted-for-CSAM level, but something law enforcement related. But a bunch of smaller things--including the documentary--would do it, too. 

Like you said, a full season was already filmed and UP and the family dropped it without a word of complaint. That seems like something more than personal scandal to me.

[sixlets]

If anyone is looking for more IBLP info, check out Liz Hunter.  I follow her on TikTok, but I'm not sure if she posts elsewhere.  (Her TT handle is thatlizhunter).  She's currently living in Florida, and she has talked about the Duggars before.  She comes across as a genuinely sweet woman, who, thankfully got out of her family before it was too late.

The BUB cancellation was just too weird with the timing.  Someone had (has) dirt on someone else, because you know certain people wouldn't willingly keep their mouth shut...ahem, Carlin...cough, cough.  Makes me wonder if they were still paid for that season 🤔

[Future Cat Lady]

3 hours ago, CalicoKitty said:

Here is an alternate theory:  The Bateses heard about the documentary and decided to drop their show rather than draw attention to their association with IBLP.  Maybe, since Gil is on their board, TPTB in IBLP told them to drop their show to prevent bad publicity.  It seems strange that UP would pull a series that was already in the can.  Although I wonder if the Bateses had that much leverage.  It would be interesting to know exactly what happened.  I think it is strange that there was no statement or complaint from the Bates family.  They seemed to go away much to quietly.

The Bates would have no say in this. They don't decide what goes on the air or not, the network does. They could decide to not renwew their contract, but they have no say in what's already filmed.

[Future Cat Lady]

6 hours ago, lascuba said:

Isn't UP a christian network pandering to the conservative christian market? I find it impossible to believe that they would cancel over the Floyd video. Neither the producers or UP audience would care.

Maybe most people at the network had no problem with it, but maybe some higher up was made aware of it at the last minute and had zero tolerance for it.

[quarks]

4 hours ago, CalicoKitty said:

Here is an alternate theory:  The Bateses heard about the documentary and decided to drop their show rather than draw attention to their association with IBLP.  Maybe, since Gil is on their board, TPTB in IBLP told them to drop their show to prevent bad publicity.  It seems strange that UP would pull a series that was already in the can.  Although I wonder if the Bateses had that much leverage.  It would be interesting to know exactly what happened.  I think it is strange that there was no statement or complaint from the Bates family.  They seemed to go away much to quietly.

I find it very, very difficult to believe that whatever contract they had with UP/Intermedia would have allowed the Bates to tell UP to drop the show - or let the Bates have any control of previously filmed material. That contract also presumably included some sort of NDA preventing them from saying anything else that wasn't pre-approved by the studio/network.

But as long as we are having fun with conspiracy theories, I just checked IMDB out of curiosity, which notes that Timothy Kuryak, one of the main executive producers for Bringing Up Bates and other UP shows, joined CNBC in early 2022, where he lasted just a few months before getting terminated in January 2023 as part of NBC Universal's restructuring of CNBC. Another Bringing Up Bates executive producer, Amy Winter, who also EPed different UP shows (and who previously helped EP 19 Kids and Counting), left UP sometime in 2020/early 2021 for Lifetime. I don't know what specific involvement either one of these two EPs/UP executives had with Bringing up Bates, but I suspect their absence didn't encourage UP to keep the show on the air.

 

[Salacious Kitty]

Other UP shows? I believe that UP had only one other original content show while BUB was in production. I have no clue if UP has, well, upped their game since the Bateses got the chop.

[quarks]

2 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Other UP shows? I believe that UP had only one other original content show while BUB was in production. I have no clue if UP has, well, upped their game since the Bateses got the chop.

Bringing Up Bates ran from 2015 to 2021. During that time, UP also produced and ran:

Jo Frost: Nanny on Tour (2016)

Small Town, Big Mayor (2016)

Growing Up McGhee (2016 - 2017)

Date My Dad (2017)

Morgan Family Strong (2018)

Crazy Beautiful Weddings (2018)

Design Twins (2019) 

As of right now, UP claims that they have the "greatest collection of family and faith favorites," which apparently consists of a couple of shows filmed in Canada and New Zealand, presented as "UP Faith & Family Originals,"; Heartland (another Canadian production available elsewhere, but in the U.S. is streams on UP first); various family friendly movies; and various scripted syndicated shows. I don't know if this exactly counts as upping their game, but, hey, at least they aren't streaming Duggar shows, or giving the Vuolos their own show, which has to count for something, right?

[Salacious Kitty]

I didn't realize UP produced anything aside from BUB. Their pressie for the cancellation makes more sense with this knowledge. 

I'm obviously not UP's target demographic. 😂

[GeeGolly]

This doesn't explain why they didn't air the season already filmed. The film crew had obviously already been paid for their time and the show was consistently promoted up until days before it was cancelled, so there is a financial loss right out of the gate. Also its not good business to abruptly cancel a popular show because that will piss off a fair amount of loyal BUB viewers.

IMO, going in a different direction, is a last minute break up line, not a farewell to a long running series.

[Notabug]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

This doesn't explain why they didn't air the season already filmed. The film crew had obviously already been paid for their time and the show was consistently promoted up until days before it was cancelled, so there is a financial loss right out of the gate. Also its not good business to abruptly cancel a popular show because that will piss off a fair amount of loyal BUB viewers.

IMO, going in a different direction, is a last minute break up line, not a farewell to a long running series.

It's also now been a couple years since UP canceled the show, claiming they were going in a different direction with their programming.  Yet, they haven't gone anywhere, except to eliminate the Bates as part of the lineup.  

Presumably, if they were going to be changing their format and the Bates no longer fit their brand, they would've already had a show or two in the can and ready to roll when they canceled.  And, by now, they'd have a number of new programming options to fit their new image.

Obviously, the change in direction was not the reason the show was canceled.

[Zella]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

IMO, going in a different direction, is a last minute break up line, not a farewell to a long running series.

It also smacks of not wanting to publicize the real reason, even beyond the fact that they were clearly lying about going in a different direction. 

[quarks]

39 minutes ago, Notabug said:

Presumably, if they were going to be changing their format and the Bates no longer fit their brand, they would've already had a show or two in the can and ready to roll when they canceled.  And, by now, they'd have a number of new programming options to fit their new image.

 

(bitter, hollow laughter)

Yes, yes, you would think. 

In my experience this is not actually what happens - to the point where not doing this is one reason why the WGA is on strike right now.  UP Tv does not appear to have deep pockets, and my guess is that some executive did intend to change the format/brand, but then balked during the scripted TV budget negotiations. 

How much that intended shift in format/brand had to do with Bringing Up Bates, other than offering a convenient and probably even true at the time excuse, is certainly debatable, and I would agree that this was probably not the main reason for the cancellation, especially given the decision not to air the last few filmed episodes. That expensive decision was not made lightly.  I just think that, after those two UP Tv executives left for better paid positions, no one was around to champion the shows, or argue for airing those last few episodes anyway.

 

 

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

It also smacks of not wanting to publicize the real reason, even beyond the fact that they were clearly lying about going in a different direction. 

Or they underestimated the cost of a shift to original scripted programming, or assumed that they actually had the financial backing from Intermedia, only to find out that they didn't. And they do seem to be producing some original scripted films like this:

https://press.upentertainment.com/uptv-currently-in-production-on-country-hearts-starring-chris-jericho/

Again, yes, I do think something else was going on here besides someone at UPTv wanting original programming - mostly because not airing already filmed/edited episodes is really weird. But it could be both.

[LilJen]

Lengthy article about one of those "Christian" medical cost-sharing ministries. Well, one family involved with two of them and related companies, doing all KINDS of fraudulent things. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/5/7/2167331/-A-Christian-health-nonprofit-saddled-thousands-with-debt-built-pot-farm-a-bank-and-an-airline?detail=emaildkre&pm_source=DKRE&pm_medium=email

[GeeGolly]

Oh and there's that pesky January trip to DC that Lawson and Trace made. Perhaps all 3 events/incidents together tipped UP over the edge.

[Meow Mix]

I think there was definitely a kernel of truth to UP's statement that they were moving in a different direction.  I think that 2022 was going to be the Bateses last season ending probably with Lawson's wedding.  They were heavily promoting the show up until shortly before the premier of the new season and an executive had made a very committed statement regarding the show earlier in the fall.  I could definitely see them believing that they were going to get into scripted programming, but later discovering how much it really costs.

Now to the fact that they pulled the show when the season was already in the can.  My first suspicion was that the issue was related to Lawson and Trace's trip to DC as there were other federal changes coming down around that time for some people who also participated.  UP may be a primarily Christian network, but I think they want to court a more mainstream conservative audience and that sort of activity would be a bridge too far for them.  

Now I wonder how much the Amazon doc had to do with it as that seems to have morphed into an expose on the Duggars and the Bateses seem to be left out of it.  Gil is on the board of IBLP and that could have spooked UP as well.  Gil and Kelly have never mentioned their association to Gothard or IBLP on the show whereas the Duggars did mention it in the early specials.  The fact that Gil is on the board of IBLP and was there during the scandal in 2014 is something that neither UP nor Gil could suppress since it is public knowledge.  I do wonder if the shift in focus of the doc was partly caused by Gil threatening legal action.  These people are not shy about that.  Heck JB strongly hinted that TLC would take legal action against his own daughter if she didn't keep doing the show.

[quarks]

Sure, the current title only mentions the Duggars, but that might well be just for marketing/taking advantage of Amazon's algorithm system reasons. I don't think it tells us all that much about the content. (Like, Tiger King features many, many other people besides Joe Exotic.)

This, though:

Quote

 I do wonder if the shift in focus of the doc was partly caused by Gil threatening legal action. 

 

I mean, sure, Gil Bates could have threatened legal action. I'd believe that.

I just don't believe that Amazon Studios would care about these threats. If the docuseries doesn't feature the Bates, I think that's for other reasons. (The first that comes to mind is the need to limit the number of characters, and the second the fact that none of the Bates have been arrested for major federal crimes - yet.)

[Natalie68]

On 5/14/2023 at 6:31 AM, GeeGolly said:

Oh and there's that pesky January trip to DC that Lawson and Trace made. Perhaps all 3 events/incidents together tipped UP over the edge.

I wonder how many complaints they received?  I know I contacted UP with their photo at the 'event'.

[Salacious Kitty]

3 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

I wonder how many complaints they received?  I know I contacted UP with their photo at the 'event'.

I'm glad you saved a photo from that event. Like Carlin's video, those pics were summarily scrubbed once they realized that they can't read the room.

[GeeGolly]

39 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I'm glad you saved a photo from that event. Like Carlin's video, those pics were summarily scrubbed once they realized that they can't read the room.

The internet is forever. One quick Google search and the pics are there, maybe not on their IGs, but on the interwebs, none the less. They're so confident in their beliefs they are beyond tone deaf.

[AstridM]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

The internet is forever. One quick Google search and the pics are there, maybe not on their IGs, but on the interwebs, none the less. They're so confident in their beliefs they are beyond tone deaf.

If they were truly so confident in their beliefs , they wouldn’t have removed the pictures from their own accounts. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by AstridM

[sagittarius sue]

And then there is their shrine room to the Confederacy which they call their "America Room."  Gil Bates claimed that he only knew that Nathan Bedford Forrest was a Confederate general.  Sure.

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by sagittarius sue

[Salacious Kitty]

10 minutes ago, sagittarius sue said:

And then there is their shrine room to the Confederacy which they call their "America Room."  Gil Bates claimed that he only knew that Nathan Bedford Forrest was a Confederate general.  Sure.

 

Yup. Another lowlight in their history that Kelly scrubbed from the blog. 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, AstridM said:

If they were truly so confident in their beliefs , they wouldn’t have removed the pictures from their own accounts. 

I agree. Their confidence makes them tone deaf. Their want/need to shill and be famous has them kowtowing to push back.