Party of One: Unpopular TV Opinions

[sistermagpie]

22 hours ago, Bastet said:

I don't really have an answer to what I think is the most overrated show, because if I never watched a highly popular show because it did not sound at all appealing to me - which is very common - I can't say it's overrated, as I never actually tried it.  So I'm trying to think of wildly popular and/or critically acclaimed shows that I did watch and thought eh, it's fine, but I don't get all the hype and nothing is coming to me.

Honestly, I hate it when people force themselves to watch a show just because it's popular, since if I like the show that just means there's going to be somebody complaining about how overrated it is, as if everybody who pretends they like it is lying or something. Really, I just hate to think of something I really like boring somebody. I'd much rather they have a good time watching what they like and I'll do the same!

[Cinnabon]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Honestly, I hate it when people force themselves to watch a show just because it's popular, since if I like the show that just means there's going to be somebody complaining about how overrated it is, as if everybody who pretends they like it is lying or something. Really, I just hate to think of something I really like boring somebody. I'd much rather they have a good time watching what they like and I'll do the same!

If a show is very popular, many will give it a chance because they think they might like it. If some don’t, they’ll give their opinions on it. At least on forums like this, which are known to be popular with snarkers, you’ll get varied opinions. Fan sites are different. 🤷‍♀️

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

If a show is very popular, many will give it a chance because they think they might like it. If some don’t, they’ll give their opinions on it. At least on forums like this, which are known to be popular with snarkers, you’ll get varied opinions. Fan sites are different. 🤷‍♀️

Oh, I understand giving it a try, I just hate to think of people forcing themselves to continue to watch it because it's popular and so resenting it, like it's a duty. Not liking it and saying so is the healthy choice! I don't think people should have to not say they hate a show just because I like it, of course.

Though to be fair, I also understand hate-watching, which is kind of another thing. 

[Cinnabon]

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, I understand giving it a try, I just hate to think of people forcing themselves to continue to watch it because it's popular and so resenting it, like it's a duty. Not liking it and saying so is the healthy choice! I don't think people should have to not say they hate a show just because I like it, of course.

Though to be fair, I also understand hate-watching, which is kind of another thing. 

I also question why those who seem to hate a show continue watching it. Life is too short for that!

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I also question why those who seem to hate a show continue watching it. Life is too short for that!

I actually do get that--there's a certain type of hating a show that's interesting in itself. Like you're fascinated by what it's doing and want to analyze it just the way you would something you think is really well done. If you enjoy picking it apart, you're enjoying something.

Though it's probably not a coincidence that hate-watchers often start out as fans--and that some of them probably don't know the difference between "the show is bad now" and "the show isn't doing what I want it to do."

[Bastet]

8 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I can’t get into a show when I’m told that once I get past the first 3-4-6 episodes (1st season is what I was told for Schitt’s Creek!), then I will probably love it.  I just don’t want to invest that kind of time on a maybe. 

I'm typically like that, too.  When I saw promos for Schitt's Creek in syndication on Pop (where I was re-watching ER at the time), it looked painfully unfunny to me, despite the presence of Catherine O'Hara and Eugene Levy.  And I'd read here about "getting through" the first season so, like you, had no interest. 

But later - and I don't even remember why - I decided to go ahead and give it a try on Netflix, and I am SO glad I did.  I didn't much care for the first episode, but it didn't take me anywhere near the entire first season to get into it (this despite the presence of the human pustule that is Chris Elliot as Roland, so that's saying something) and then really into it.  I wound up finding it exponentially funnier than the promos made it seem, and thoroughly charming and touching in ways I was not remotely expecting.

[Irlandesa]

32 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I also question why those who seem to hate a show continue watching it. Life is too short for that!

27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I actually do get that--there's a certain type of hating a show that's interesting in itself. Like you're fascinated by what it's doing and want to analyze it just the way you would something you think is really well done. If you enjoy picking it apart, you're enjoying something.

Though it's probably not a coincidence that hate-watchers often start out as fans--and that some of them probably don't know the difference between "the show is bad now" and "the show isn't doing what I want it to do."

Yeah.  Every time I've "hate watched" something, I've been invested in something about the show.  Sometimes it's a particular character or side story or some of the awfulness is so off-the-wall that I want to talk about it.

But the minute I lose all enjoyment, I walk away.

[Mabinogia]

14 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Yeah.  Every time I've "hate watched" something, I've been invested in something about the show.  Sometimes it's a particular character or side story or some of the awfulness is so off-the-wall that I want to talk about it.

But the minute I lose all enjoyment, I walk away.

Same with me. I have watched shows I have mostly hated because of one character I loved but that small bit that I love about a show usually only gets me so far. I have no problem ditching a show, even one with an ongoing storyline, once it feels like a chore to watch it. I remember when I would religiously watch Game of Thrones, waiting desperately for the next ep. About the second to last season it was more something I'd watch when I got around to it. I stopped watching at the second to last ep and have never seen the last one. I realized in that penultimate ep that I wasn't looking forward to seeing how it all got resolved because I'd lost confidence that it would end how I imagined. I gave up House, a show I was obsessed with because it became repetitive, and the writers seemed to think they were much cleverer than they really were.  

There are other shows I have seen a million times and will still watch even though I can quote every single line. These are not better shows than any other, it's just that something clicked for me, be it a character, the writing, something. 

I will say, though I loved Sherlock the first time I watched it. I recently found it streaming and rewatched. I got through most of it, though I found Sherlock himself insufferable, but I had to stop watching at the second to last ep because that last season was TERRIBLE!!!!!

[roamyn]

14 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I will say, though I loved Sherlock the first time I watched it. I recently found it streaming and rewatched. I got through most of it, though I found Sherlock himself insufferable, but I had to stop watching at the second to last ep because that last season was TERRIBLE!!!!!

This is how I feel abt Castle.  Tho it was the actors who I found insufferable - Nathan Fillion & Stana Katic hated each other.  I really felt for the other actors putting up with their BS.

I refuse to this day to watch S8.  IMO the show ended with the nearly perfect ‘Hollander’s Woods’ at the end of S7.

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

I also question why those who seem to hate a show continue watching it. Life is too short for that!

I've always wondered about that, too. I can understand if it's a show you had liked originally, and now you're unhappy with the direction it's taken....but you either a) still hope the show gets good again, or b) still have some fond memories associated with it, or c) still like certain characters or actors/the fandom/etc., thus making it harder to completely cut yourself off entirely. For me, as I've said before, I'd always figured that if I got to a point where there was absolutely nothing I liked about a show anymore, that would be a sign that it was time for me to move on. But I can see why that'd be easier said than done for some in the above situation. 

But yeah, to watch something just to dunk on it...that doesn't seem appealing to me, either. And a lot of the people who do that, or who continue to watch a show they once loved but have grown to hate, are the same ones who'll sit here and be aghast that the show got renewed and be like, "WHY IS THIS STILL ON THE AIR?!" 

Um...because people like you are watching it and boosting its ratings, thus helping to keep it on the air? The people who run networks don't care why people are watching a show, they just care that people are watching it, period, whether they like it or not. What's that saying, about how the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference? Bad publicity and talk is still publicity and talk to a network. They'd be more scared if nobody was paying attention at all. 

Regarding the talk of "Community" a while back, the whole thing people mention here about the show's fans patting themselves on the back for acting like they were so smart to enjoy a show like that is precisely what I meant by the fan hype. Yes. That absolutely got annoying, and I encountered A LOT of fans like that. The worst was how they kept dumping on people who watched "Big Bang Theory", and the show itself, because it was in direct competition with "Community", as though that show and its fans were purposefully somehow conspiring to hurt "Community" and its ratings or something*. Indeed, a lot of the fans really needed someone to tell them to get over themselves. 

*It was especially funny that they got so bent out of shape over other shows posing a threat, because even with all the BTS drama (which, yes, was also very exhausting to be witness to, as a fan of the show) and the show being put on pause for a time and the creator leaving the show and then coming back and the show getting moved online for its final two seasons...I mean, it still managed to get its much rallied "six seasons" in the end. NBC could've just dumped it when it went on pause and the BTS drama started up and called it a day, but they still stuck it out with the show for a while longer, and it still got a continued life online. A lot of shows with that kind of BTS drama and constant shifting and changing don't get that lucky. Better to appreciate what we got than dunk on other shows that are just trying to do their own thing. 

Granted, I haven't really interacted with the fandom in ages, so I don't know what it's like nowadays, but from what little I have observed, it seems more chill now than it did back then. I hope that's the case. 

As for "Frasier", someone in a prior page mentioned Frasier himself being insufferable as a turnoff, which, yeah, I get that. That's part of what makes the surrounding characters great, is that they can balance out Frasier's pompousness and know how to pop his inflated bubble, but even with that, I can see where he would still be exhausting to some viewers. Frasier himself can definitely be...a lot, for sure :p. Funny thing, though, a lot of people who watch that show tend to watch for one or more of the other characters anyway. At least, that's been my experience. 

Plus, I know that back in the day, the show won a crapton of Emmys - all well-deserved, I would agree, but for fans of other shows, I could see that being irritating, too. I know that that can be a factor in people's dislike of a show, too, if it seems like it's hogging all the awards and critical acclaim. The whole "spread the love around" thing, and all that. 

I honestly don't know what shows I would consider overrated, either. I don't tend to like that term, really, because I think it gets tossed around too much, and I think too many people confuse "I personally don't like this" with "This is overrated", and they're not always one and the same. 

Plus, there's lots of popular and critically acclaimed shows that I've either only seen bits and pieces of, or haven't seen at all (no particular reason, I just haven't had the opportunity to check them out), so y'know, hard to have an opinion on them one way or another. 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Though it's probably not a coincidence that hate-watchers often start out as fans--and that some of them probably don't know the difference between "the show is bad now" and "the show isn't doing what I want it to do."

Oh, yes, Absolutely. 

[juno]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

human pustule that is Chris Elliot as Roland

Well said and good description. Even to this day I fast forward every one of his scenes when I rewatch Schitt's Creek.

[bluegirl147]

I will be hate watching season two of And Just Like That. The first season I had a small glimmer of hope it would be at least be enjoyable.  I was wrong and it was awful. But I still am invested in the characters (except for Miranda.  She is dead to me.  It is someone else in her body) so I will hate watch to see how much more awful this season will be.

[Zella]

I've hate watched things before because I thought it was hilariously bad. But I really need a partner in crime for it. In any event, my grandparents and I had a lot of fun hate-watching Madame Secretary. We used to take bets on how long it would take for First Gentleman Tim Daly to jump into a jet and save the day in that episode. 😂😂😂😂😂

Also an honorary mention to that last season of Little House on the Prairie, which I only powered through because of the hilarious forum here and people promising me orangutans. LOLOL

Edited August 20, 2022 by Zella

[DoctorAtomic]

I haven't really hate watched a show in a long time. I wouldn't tell anyone how they should watch a show, but I realized I was ruining the conversation on the boards and I stopped. I've been on the other end since, where everyone is piling on and I just want to talk about the show. 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I haven't really hate watched a show in a long time. I wouldn't tell anyone how they should watch a show, but I realized I was ruining the conversation on the boards and I stopped. I've been on the other end since, where everyone is piling on and I just want to talk about the show. 

Yeah my rule of thumb is if I'm hate-watching something, I'm not going to swoop in and bitch about it in a forum devoted to it. The exception being the LHOTP thread here since on there it's pretty widely accepted that the final season is absolute dogshit. It wasn't raining on anyone's parade there. 

[badhaggis]

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yeah my rule of thumb is if I'm hate-watching something, I'm not going to swoop in and bitch about it in a forum devoted to it. The exception being the LHOTP thread here since on there it's pretty widely accepted that the final season is absolute dogshit. It wasn't raining on anyone's parade there. 

Oooh I love a good hate-watch! I haven't done that in a while. Any shows I should try?

[Annber03]

13 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I've been on the other end since, where everyone is piling on and I just want to talk about the show. 

I've been in that situation more times than I can count and it's very frustrating, indeed. Especially if it feels like I'm the only one trying to keep some positive, or at the very least, neutral, conversation going. 

And even if and when I do want to talk about some aspect of the show that's worth critiquing further, it never gains traction because all anyone wants to do is bash the exact same characters/pairings/storylines over and over and over and over, to the point where they're practically beating a dead horse. At some point it just gets old and tired and exhausting. 

[Shannon L.]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

I'm typically like that, too.  When I saw promos for Schitt's Creek in syndication on Pop (where I was re-watching ER at the time), it looked painfully unfunny to me, despite the presence of Catherine O'Hara and Eugene Levy.  And I'd read here about "getting through" the first season so, like you, had no interest. 

But later - and I don't even remember why - I decided to go ahead and give it a try on Netflix, and I am SO glad I did.  I didn't much care for the first episode, but it didn't take me anywhere near the entire first season to get into it (this despite the presence of the human pustule that is Chris Elliot as Roland, so that's saying something) and then really into it.  I wound up finding it exponentially funnier than the promos made it seem, and thoroughly charming and touching in ways I was not remotely expecting.

This is how I felt about it.  We didn't even make it through the first episode--we didn't laugh once.  But, when people said to give it about 3 episodes, I tried again and each show kept getting a little bit better until I found it really good. As for Chris Elliot (who I also can't stand--him or his character), I found that they eventually toned down his character a little and didn't have him on quite as much, so he became tolerable for me. I agree-the show was very funny, charming and touching.

As for being told to get through the first 3 or 4 episodes, if I'm ever told that, I will try the second episode, but only go on to a third if the second one shows improvement (and so on).  If I find the second episode to be a chore, then 9 times out of 10, I'm out.

[Zella]

21 minutes ago, badhaggis said:

Oooh I love a good hate-watch! I haven't done that in a while. Any shows I should try?

I'm actually blanking on any I've hate-watched since the 2 I mentioned (Madame Secretary, late-stage LHOTP). If it doesn't have to be a show, Cats. It's so bad that it single-handedly destroyed my crush on Idris Elba. 😂😂😂 My partner in snark on Cats was a coworker, and 2 years later, we're still giggling about that movie. 

[sistermagpie]

52 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I haven't really hate watched a show in a long time. I wouldn't tell anyone how they should watch a show, but I realized I was ruining the conversation on the boards and I stopped. I've been on the other end since, where everyone is piling on and I just want to talk about the show. 

Also the hate watching only works if it's accurate, same as analyzing something you like. Because if somebody's snark isn't imo accurate...I'm going to start saying so. 🤷‍♀️

[kathyk24]

I think hate watchers are awful because they ruin the experience for fans. Criminal Minds was the best example of this. I would go onto the forum and all I would read is the episode stunk and JJ was the worst character ever. There is nothing you can say to convince a hate watcher that they are wrong.

[badhaggis]

26 minutes ago, kathyk24 said:

I think hate watchers are awful because they ruin the experience for fans. Criminal Minds was the best example of this. I would go onto the forum and all I would read is the episode stunk and JJ was the worst character ever. There is nothing you can say to convince a hate watcher that they are wrong.

Maybe we need a hate watch forum 😘

[kiddo82]

I don't have a problem expressing a dissenting opinion but there reaches a point when you realize you've said your peace and it's time to move on.  I love a good conversation/debate but it's also not my desire to spoil anyone else's fun.  On the flip side, there are definitely forums I find myself staying away from because of the incessant negativity.  (How many times does one need to make their feelings known about topic X?  Especially if the ongoing conversation has nothing to do with topic X.  We all fall prey from it from time to time, and I am no exception, but I'm trying to be mindful of it.)  It's not an enjoyable experience.

Edited August 21, 2022 by kiddo82

[Blergh]

I've hate watched shows that either I believed had had potential to be better (with glimpses of 'the shows that might have been') and/or I wanted to see if others' hysterical hype over said shows was anywhere close to being justified.

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I haven't really hate watched a show in a long time. I wouldn't tell anyone how they should watch a show, but I realized I was ruining the conversation on the boards and I stopped. I've been on the other end since, where everyone is piling on and I just want to talk about the show. 

Well, this is known in some circles as a place to snark. 🙂 Fan sites are different.

[Zella]

54 minutes ago, kiddo82 said:

I don't have a problem expressing a dissenting opinion but there reaches a point when you realize you've said your peace and it's time to move on.  I love a good conversation/debate but it's also not my desire to spoil anyone else's fun.  On the flip side, there are definitely forums I find myself staying away from because of the incessant negativity.  (How many times does one need to make their feelings known about topic X?  Especially if the ongoing conversation has nothing to do with topic X.  We all fall prey from it from time to time, and I am no exception, but I'm trying to be mindful of it.)  It's not an enjoyable experience.

Yes I think the best TV discussions I've engaged in were ones where people were perfectly willing to hear out critiques and dissenting opinions without getting defensive, but it also didn't just devolve into a nonstop bitching session. 

Personally, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people dominate discussions to just repeatedly point out how the show diverges from the source material. I say this as an avid reader who has a master's degree in literature and works in a library and has certainly been periodically irritated with adaptations, but if you are incapable of discussing anything but changes from the source material, maybe you should just peace out of the conversation and go reread the book again. 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, badhaggis said:

Maybe we need a hate watch forum 😘

This site is where a lot of TWOP posters migrated after it collapsed, so. . . 😆

[Bort]

4 hours ago, badhaggis said:

Oooh I love a good hate-watch! I haven't done that in a while. Any shows I should try?

La Brea? It’s a ridiculous show with a ridiculous premise and the forum here is pretty dedicated to chainsawing it apart — rather amusingly.

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

I think hate watchers are awful because they ruin the experience for fans. Criminal Minds was the best example of this. I would go onto the forum and all I would read is the episode stunk and JJ was the worst character ever. There is nothing you can say to convince a hate watcher that they are wrong.

Yes. This was the exact fandom that came to mind when I made my earlier post about how tough it is to try and keep any positive/neutral conversation going. There's some places within the fandom where I've had some great discussions about the show with other fans, and then there's some spaces where it's like...yeah, I'm just gonna back out of this one/lurk :p. 

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Yes I think the best TV discussions I've engaged in were ones where people were perfectly willing to hear out critiques and dissenting opinions without getting defensive, but it also didn't just devolve into a nonstop bitching session. 

Personally, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people dominate discussions to just repeatedly point out how the show diverges from the source material. I say this as an avid reader who has a master's degree in literature and works in a library and has certainly been periodically irritated with adaptations, but if you are incapable of discussing anything but changes from the source material, maybe you should just peace out of the conversation and go reread the book again. 

Agreed so much on your first paragraph. I think it's just good to keep a fandom from being an echo chamber in general one way or the other. 

I think the other reason that I get frustrated when I'm in a fandom where all anyone does is complain is because it's rare that I can find anyone offline who shares my TV interests. I don't really have people offline that I can squee and geek out with regarding a show I love - much of the time I'm lucky if I mention a show to someone and I get a reaction other than a blank look and a, "Oh, I've never heard of/seen that show.".

So it's great when I find people online who share my fannish love for a show, and it sucks when I lose even that because everyone's all grumpy and bitching about the show. Then I wind up going back to just quietly enjoying it on my own, which, fine, but, I mean, I already do that offline, you know? 

As for your second paragraph, I haven't really been in a lot of fandoms where that's been a particular issue of debate for me to worry about, but yeah, I can see where that'd get annoying, too. Especially when it seems like some people fail to understand that TV is a different medium from books or comics or whatever, so yeah, by its very nature, of course there's going to have to be a few changes as a result in adapting something to a TV audience. 

[Ambrosefolly]

This is from the Pretty Little Liars: Original Sin thread and I might have black and white thinking, but I was not okay with the girls taking DNA from a blood drive in 1x08 Bad Blood, no matter how pure their reasons were. In general,  I am getting sick of the phenom as a whole, doing a bunch of unethical that violate people's right and having it deemed ok because we find out later the person is an asshole or currently an asshole

It was a gross violation of those boys' privacy during an event designed to get crucial life saving aid. If there is a next season, I hope it comes out and it backfires. No one shows about the the next blood drive and Noa's mom goes jail and is barred from healthcare.  I also hated Tabby secretly filming the boys in the locker as part of her "investigation." Why is this behavior deemed ok because the Sinners the protagonists? I don't care that Tabby wasn't doing it because of sexual voyeurism, you don't do that for any reason. 

Similar crap was done on General Hospital twice. They had Nelle, who was a scheming, murderous bitch, locked on a roof and nearly frozen to death, because Carly wanted to forge her signature so Nelle and Michael's son Wiley could have experimental surgery done right then and there.(Should be noted, Wiley wasn't in immediate danger and Nelle wanted to get a second opinion) This was all framed as okay and everyone involved got away with it. Recently, they had a Portia (a doctor) wake up someone from induced coma because her daughter was on trial. She could have killed the guy, but it looks like she is going to get away with it because Portia was doing out of love for her innocent danger. 

I watched a documentary about BTK Killer, and there was a lot of hand wringing about obtaining a DNA sample through his daughter's pap smear (and they had a lot of solid circumstantial evidence by that time) as there should be. Another time parents went to court against the NYPD because the NYPD entered their 12 year old son's DNA into a genetic database even though, he was cleared of the initial crime they brought him in for. The police have to go through hoops to obtain these search warrants, and it isn't bullshit red tape. I am sick of the extreme of "ends justify the means." It is getting to the point that I am almost rooting for rapist and murderers because the "heroes" are such amoral assholes. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Ambrosefolly

[Hiyo]

Quote

Oooh I love a good hate-watch! I haven't done that in a while. Any shows I should try?

Emily in Paris. Do it with some friends, but also some wine, cheese, and cold cuts.

I rarely hate watch shows (besides the above). The few exceptions were Lost (I enjoyed the first season and a half, from then on there were periods I liked and others I did not, but the last season sucked but I just to see how it ended) and maybe the Newsroom. Well, I guess I would add Glee to that list also. The first half was ok, the second half...not good.

Usually if I stop enjoying a show, I'll just stop watching it, like I did with Grey's Anatomy (I think I gave up in season 12), Prison Break (sometime in season 3), Ugly Betty (sometime in season 3 also), Entourage (can't remember when I stopped)...

With regards to "Wait, this show gets better!", I do tend to give the show the benefit of the doubt, since I remember one of my favorite shows of all time, Star Trek: The Next Generation had a really, really bad first year. If I was recommending that show to people, I'd probably tell them to skip the first season altogether except for maybe 2 or 3 episodes.

Also, there are some shows that I have watched and enjoyed and made it through to the end but still feel they were overrated by people in general (Buffy and Breaking Bad being two examples, I liked both shows but never felt they lived up to the hype surrounding them).

[andromeda331]

Quote

As for "Frasier", someone in a prior page mentioned Frasier himself being insufferable as a turnoff, which, yeah, I get that. That's part of what makes the surrounding characters great, is that they can balance out Frasier's pompousness and know how to pop his inflated bubble, but even with that, I can see where he would still be exhausting to some viewers. Frasier himself can definitely be...a lot, for sure :p. Funny thing, though, a lot of people who watch that show tend to watch for one or more of the other characters anyway. At least, that's been my experience. 

I really didn't expect to like Frasier way back when it first air. Although I loved Frasier on Cheers I couldn't imagine an entire show based around his character. He really can be a lot. But they did a real good job with him and having characters around him who were really great but different. Having his father being so different really helped and gave a lot of material to work with. Along with Roz, Daphne and Niles really made the series work. They weren't just there. Frasier wanted a better relationship with his father and brother despite their differences and competition with Niles. But also really funny. They really did a great job with the series.

[Annber03]

32 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I really didn't expect to like Frasier way back when it first air. Although I loved Frasier on Cheers I couldn't imagine an entire show based around his character. 

From what I've read, a lot of people didn't imagine him as their first choice for a spin-off! Most people assumed Sam, or even Cliff or Norm, might get one instead (and I know there was one about Carla, but that one didn't last long, it sounds like). I remember reading something about how there'd even been a viewers' poll around the time "Cheers" ended, in which people asked which character they'd most want to see a spin-off about, and Frasier was, like, dead last :p. Makes it all the more amazing that "Frasier" wound up being the success that it was. 

But I think that story should send a message to TV execs who want to do spin-offs. Just because a character is popular and beloved, that doesn't automatically mean they're going to be worthy of a spin-off. There are some characters that are great precisely because they're part of an ensemble, and who may not fare as well in a show revolving around them specifically. Sometimes it's the character you least expect, or who's not the first choice, who might wind up being the best pick for that kind of setup. Maybe there's more story they might be able to tell with them, or, if they're not as popular a character, then the creators/writers won't have to worry about that aspect overwhelming the series, or whatever. 

And if they are going to do a spin-off, even if the show is named after the main character and they're the focus, they still need a good, strong supporting cast to round them out. Like you note, that's one of the big reasons why "Frasier" worked as well as it did. 

[SVNBob]

4 hours ago, Hiyo said:

I remember one of my favorite shows of all time, Star Trek: The Next Generation had a really, really bad first year.

First couple years really.  Season 3 is when the show Grew the Beard, both literally and troperifically.  Since I haven't seen it yet, I don't know how deep into things the documentary about the first couple seasons of TNG, Chaos on the Bridge, actually goes.

But as you said, there were some diamonds among all that rough in those two seasons.  Those helped keep the show alive.  (Well, that and the Trekkies who'd been starving for a new series since TOS went off the air.)

[kiddo82]

6 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I am sick of the extreme of "ends justify the means." It is getting to the point that I am almost rooting for rapist and murderers because the "heroes" are such amoral assholes. 

I used to watch Chicago PD in syndication now and then but I just couldn't with Hank anymore.  I kept yelling at the TV "Yes.  You should have IA on your ass and yes you should be in jail."

[Haleth]

9 hours ago, Zella said:

Personally, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people dominate discussions to just repeatedly point out how the show diverges from the source material. I say this as an avid reader who has a master's degree in literature and works in a library and has certainly been periodically irritated with adaptations, but if you are incapable of discussing anything but changes from the source material, maybe you should just peace out of the conversation and go reread the book again. 

A lot of the forums have a thread for comparing the show to the source material, so I don't mind when that becomes a heated discussion.  But yeah, continual comparisons to the book (or comic, or whatever) don't belong in episode threads.

Hate watching is ok too, as long as the conversation doesn't devolve every week into an argument about whether you should love or hate Sansa Stark.

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, Zella said:

Personally, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people dominate discussions to just repeatedly point out how the show diverges from the source material. I say this as an avid reader who has a master's degree in literature and works in a library and has certainly been periodically irritated with adaptations, but if you are incapable of discussing anything but changes from the source material, maybe you should just peace out of the conversation and go reread the book again. 

Yeah, I mean, I get wanting to see a visual version of a story you love but at the same time, visual storytelling is very different than written storytelling. In writing you are much more likely to get a characters motivations and internal thoughts. That comes across very badly on television. You either get a character staring in silence a lot, talking to themselves all the time, or too much narration which is hard to pull off IMO.

I'm one of those weirdos who is excited to see how someone else approaches the same story. The only time I get annoyed at it is if the producers swear their show is faithful to the original just to get people to watch then pull a bait and switch because they want to "shock" people with their exciting twist. They can go jump in a piranha filled lake for all I care. 

I have snark watched shows, if I have friends who also enjoy making fun of the particular show, but I won't watch something I actually hate, not even to make fun of it. There's way too much out there to waste my time on something I don't enjoy. 

My biggest tv sin is that I tend to background watch things. I'll watch something I have no interest in, but don't actively dislike, just because I'm too bored/lazy to find something better to do. I've watched a lot of mediocre shows that way, and if you asked me what I'd just watched as the credits roll, I probably couldn't tell you the plot, the character names, or anything much about the show. 

[Shannon L.]

17 hours ago, kiddo82 said:

I don't have a problem expressing a dissenting opinion but there reaches a point when you realize you've said your peace and it's time to move on.  I love a good conversation/debate but it's also not my desire to spoil anyone else's fun.  On the flip side, there are definitely forums I find myself staying away from because of the incessant negativity.  (How many times does one need to make their feelings known about topic X?  Especially if the ongoing conversation has nothing to do with topic X.  We all fall prey from it from time to time, and I am no exception, but I'm trying to be mindful of it.)  It's not an enjoyable experience.

I feel the same way.  I also hate going to forums where there's too much hate because, if I'm still enjoying a show, I start two wonder if my taste is really that bad.  Alternately, I don't like it when people think everything about a show is perfect, too.  I mean, the Arrow forums went way over the top with the Oliver and Felicity love.  Post after post of gifs/pics of them from every show.  It got old real fast (apologies to anyone reading this who enjoyed it or even posted those pics/gifs)

Honestly, the reason I don't join in on too many forums is because I don't have a desire to have a long discussion on a show.  I usually say what I thought, maybe ask a question and maybe respond to a couple of other people.  Same with movies--you might find 3-4 posts total in the whole thread.  But, if I do jump into long conversations that last throughout the week, I feel out of place because I'm obviously not a regular, so I rarely post anything in specific tv show threads.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Shannon L.

[Zella]

49 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I'm one of those weirdos who is excited to see how someone else approaches the same story.

I enjoy looking at that too! 

The last adaptation I watched that I had a qualm with was Pachinko. I actually liked the show (and loved the book) and thought some of the changes they made were a pretty smart way to adapt it. But they rewrote one of the relationships that in the book was pretty clearly predatory and exploitative to appear genuinely romantic. But the icky power dynamic is still there.

It was a weird choice that would have had me scratching my head even if I'd never read the book (and actually that subplot was my least favorite part of the book, though I understand why it was in there). I get that they're probably trying to keep the actor--who is good--around more and make him more palatable to viewers, but I don't really think it fits the story to do so, and I'm honestly not looking forward to how they develop that subplot in future seasons. But it's not so much "That's not how it was in the book!" to "Why are we doing this in any medium?" 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Zella

[juno]

I do a  lot of rewatching of my old favorites, mostly comedies. Somehow as I age, characters that I put up with on the first watch become unwatchable. So in order to continue to watch my favorites I have to fast forward through these horrible characters. Yes, it does cut down on the amount I can watch but it does improve it. Such as Park and Rec: Tom and Jamm, Schitt's: Roland and a lot of Michael Scott from the office.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Zella said:

I enjoy looking at that too! 

The last adaptation I watched that I had a qualm with was Pachinko. I actually liked the show (and loved the book) and thought some of the changes they made were a pretty smart way to adapt it. But they rewrote one of the relationships that in the book was pretty clearly predatory and exploitative to appear genuinely romantic. But the icky power dynamic is still there.

It was a weird choice that would have had me scratching my head even if I'd never read the book (and actually that subplot was my least favorite part of the book, though I understand why it was in there). I get that they're probably trying to keep the actor--who is good--around more and make him more palatable to viewers, but I don't really think it fits the story to do so, and I'm honestly not looking forward to how they develop that subplot in future seasons. But it's not so much "That's not how it was in the book!" to "Why are we doing this in any medium?" 

I was in the Tolkien fandom when the LOTR movies were coming out and Purists vs. Revisionists were a big part of it. I was definitely a revisionist (meaning defending changes in the adaptations). Sometimes I agreed with the purists, but what drove me crazy were people saying "It should be like it was in the book' when the book didn't actually do it, or there was just no allowance for it being a different medium that worked different ways. I remember someone showing how easy it would be to do the Council of Rivendell the way it was in the book and would have been like 10 straight minutes of talking heads doing exposition of stuff that was irrelevent. Movies are not taking the dialogue and putting it in script form!

[Bastet]

16 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I am sick of the extreme of "ends justify the means."

That is why I will not watch 95% of crime dramas; they justify and outright celebrate police misconduct, which is both disgusting and dangerous, for how it normalizes and desensitizes viewers to what is a rampant real-world problem.

Major Crimes is my favorite of my exceptions, because the squad is led by someone who for years headed up the Force Investigation Division (backed by a federal mandate to weed out excessive use of force in the LAPD), and my queen Sharon Raydor never lets her team pull that "the ends justify the means if the bad guy is a really, really bad guy" bullshit, and, best of all, they're acknowledged to become better cops because of that.

The others - Cagney & Lacey, Cold Case, and, to a lesser extent, Rizzoli & Isles - I can enjoy because, while they don't explicitly reject that false "the ends justify the means" narrative, they contain far fewer instances of unchecked police misconduct than typical entries in the genre, and have something different going for them to draw me in in spite of the missteps on that front (the friendships at the center of C&L [particularly this one, when it was a huge deal to center two women as partners and tell their stories from a feminist perspective] and R&I and the fantastic use of music to go back in time with CC).

[andromeda331]

17 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I am sick of the extreme of "ends justify the means." It is getting to the point that I am almost rooting for rapist and murderers because the "heroes" are such amoral assholes. 

So am I. I stopped watching Law & Order SUV because I got so tired of the cops beating up suspects. Same with Bluebloods with Danny and Grandpa Henry acting like that's how it should be. 

[Zella]

Just now, andromeda331 said:

So am I. I stopped watching Law & Order SUV because I got so tired of the cops beating up suspects. Same with Bluebloods with Danny and Grandpa Henry acting like that's how it should be. 

I had the same issue with both of those shows. 

SVU has some of the most unprofessional, vicious cops I've ever seen in a show, but the show's narrative almost always is that they're being awesome and whoever complains is a pain in the ass. I've seen shows take a nuanced view on the subject--I'd argue that The Wire is ahead of its time in the way it presents police brutality--but SVU was still pretty embarrassing on that score until fairly recently. 

I also was always privately bewildered how, in a city the size of NYC, in the Blue Blood universe, it seems like you were incapable of not being arrested by one brother and then tried by his sister and any complaints you had against them would be adjudicated by their dad. And nobody ever objects!

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I had the same issue with both of those shows. 

SVU has some of the most unprofessional, vicious cops I've ever seen in a show, but the show's narrative almost always is that they're being awesome and whoever complains is a pain in the ass. I've seen shows take a nuanced view on the subject--I'd argue that The Wire is ahead of its time in the way it presents police brutality--but SVU was still pretty embarrassing on that score until fairly recently. 

I also was always privately bewildered how, in a city the size of NYC, in the Blue Blood universe, it seems like you were incapable of not being arrested by one brother and then tried by his sister and any complaints you had against them would be adjudicated by their dad. And nobody ever objects!

Wasn't it Bluebloods that did that story on the myth of cops being killed by touching something with fentanyl on it? I can't remember the urban myth but yes, Bluebloods just presented it as facts to make police victims.

I used to sometimes watch Hawaii 5-0 and the police brutality presented as righteousness was appalling.

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Wasn't it Bluebloods that did that story on the myth of cops being killed by touching something with fentanyl on it? I can't remember the urban myth but yes, Bluebloods just presented it as facts to make police victims.

I used to sometimes watch Hawaii 5-0 and the police brutality presented as righteousness was appalling.

It may have! I mainly watched it when I was in grad school and desperate to not work on my thesis, so I've not watched tons of episodes, but I watched a good full season or two. LOL What I saw of Hawaii 5-0 was pretty bad, but honestly, Scott Caan's hair offended me so much that I couldn't bring myself to even hate watch it. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

Late to the hate watching discussion but I found myself doing that with New Amsterdam the last couple seasons. A Reddit penpal and I kept with it because the writing and storylines just kept getting worse and more absurd, but you couldn’t look away or help but laugh. Like the plotline about how the staff went out for karaoke and other drinking shenanigans and some of them got drugged, but the people who made it to work barely checked on the missing coworkers all day. And somehow no one died despite the fact that one of them laid unconscious in the cold for hours and another had lost a ton of blood.

I also hate watched the later years of ER on Hulu because I really wanted to get through the whole series and thought I’d have a change of heart on some things since I was an adult with life experience, whereas during the original airing I was a teenager when I was able to start watching and in college when I gave up on it. Like maybe I’d see what everyone else was seeing type of thing. Anyway, nothing really did change for my opinions and I realized how bad some of the later years are. But I cut myself some slack and figure that wanting to watch 12 seasons of a 15 season show isn’t actually that terrible: 

[Annber03]

I've been following along a bit on what's been going on with "New Amsterdam", 'cause a friend watches the show and she's gotten me to check out a few episodes. The recent season finale was...something, to say the least. I've yet to hear of any fans who liked it. Which I suppose can be another argument for hate-watching - when everyone in the fandom despises an episode/storyline/pairing,/whatever, then it can be like an odd bonding activity of sorts :p. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

24 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I've been following along a bit on what's been going on with "New Amsterdam", 'cause a friend watches the show and she's gotten me to check out a few episodes. The recent season finale was...something, to say the least. I've yet to hear of any fans who liked it. Which I suppose can be another argument for hate-watching - when everyone in the fandom despises an episode/storyline/pairing,/whatever, then it can be like an odd bonding activity of sorts :p. 

I may or may not have made fandom friends this way. ;) I have also never seen a show practically earn its cancellation like NA did LOL. 

[Danny Franks]

Saw ten minutes of House of the Dragon and that's enough for me.

So much overacting, actors randomly shouting then whispering for no reason other than drama, terrible wigs and gloomy, barely lit shots. No thank you, it looks like all the worst parts of Game of Thrones, with none of the good.

Boobs! Betrayal! Characters so evil you just love them (except that was never the actual appeal of ASOIAF)! Nah, I'm good.