S04.E15: Taken

[Midnight Lullaby]

Was the intended reaction to the monologue "Finally!!" Because that was mine. This is better than ARGUS, no one knows where they are. Awesome, perfect, let's keep it that way forever. Also I felt more emotional at the sight of the new baby Sara than about everything else. I'm going to miss that adorable baby. Not that the new one isn't precious anyway.

Felicity walking again all of a sudden was bizarre, but I didn't expect much better.

I really liked everything Felicity said during the episode. In her place I would have probably thrown something while she had a mature reaction, but still on point.

I hoped until the last moment they weren't going to make Dig side with Oliver, but of course he did! Too bad this realization that Oliver was put in a impossible position didn't come last year. After all Oliver was trying to save the team and the whole city wasn't he, Dig?

Edited February 25, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[AyChihuahua]

I really don't understand this idea that a step-parent has zero say about their young step-kid. I've had a step-mother since I was a baby, and she definitely had a say about everything to do with me. She wasn't in charge, but she sure as heck had a say. She's pretty great, and to hear step-parents just totally disregarded seems really disrespectful to me.

 

I can't believe NO ONE called Oliver out on lying. The world's dumbest lie, told by the world's dumbest "superhero," and no one even mentioned how unnecessary it was.

[tv echo]

I didn't watch this episode (except the last 5 minutes), but after reading your comments, I just have to wonder... how can Felicity comfortably work with Team Arrow ever again?  No one supported her:

 

Oliver - broke her heart (and never apologized to her)
Diggle - took Oliver's side
Thea - encouraged/convinced Oliver to continue lying to her
Laurel - constant reminder of BM/past cheating

 

Felicity's got to be feeling pretty alone and abandoned in the Arrowcave.  But of course, if she leaves Team Arrow, she'll get criticized for being selfish.

 

I agree that Felicity had been letting down her guard completely with Oliver.  Remember when Oliver said, "you don't have to be funny with me, you know that, don't you?"  But Oliver is not letting down his guard completely with her.

 

Does anyone honestly believe that they're going to show Oliver fighting or doing anything to get Felicity back?  No, of course not.  It'll be solely an internal conflict in Felicity and then she'll have to be the one to go to Oliver.

Edited February 25, 2016 by tv echo

[nksarmi]

I really don't understand this idea that a step-parent has zero say about their young step-kid. I've had a step-mother since I was a baby, and she definitely had a say about everything to do with me. She wasn't in charge, but she sure as heck had a say. She's pretty great, and to hear step-parents just totally disregarded seems really disrespectful to me.

 

I can't believe NO ONE called Oliver out on lying. The world's dumbest lie, told by the world's dumbest "superhero," and no one even mentioned how unnecessary it was.

 

I think it really depends on the circumstances.  I've been on all sides of this tricky navigational waters and it's usually best as a step parent to let the bios decide, but of course you get a say in what goes on in your home.  Like for example, while a step parent can voice their opinion on things (and certainly should be consulted by their spouse), they don't get to be the deciding factor in where a kid goes to school, when is the right time to let the kid have a cell phone, if it's ok for the kid to get a piercing, etc....  As long as the child has two active parents, it's best that they make those decisions together. 

 

But deciding things like curfews and bed times and other things that happen in your home - that's fair game for a step parent in my opinion. 

 

So in this instance, I do think the decision was between Oliver and Samantha, but don't SHOW me Oliver talking to Diggle and Vixen and not have him at least ASK Felicity what she thinks, if you want me to like Oliver's behavior.

[doesntworkonwood]

This episode wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but that's because I spoiled myself so much that I pretty much got over everything that would really annoy me. I don't want to repeat what everyone has already said but there are a couple of points that I haven't really seen mentioned so...

 

a) There is now a video of Oliver admitting he is the Green Arrow. This video is going to be around for at least 8 years. Oliver doesn't know where this video is going to be, who will have access to it and what it might be used for. Oliver is really freakin dumb. 

 

b) I'm more annoyed this week that it was Curtis who completely made the biochip than I was last week. I think Felicity being able to walk would have had a lot greater impact if she had a lot more agency in it. I don't think that Felicity had to have single handedly made the biochip, but I think that her starting it and discussing it with Curtis and even working with him to make the biochip would have been a lot better for Felicity. He could have still been the one to finish it and give it to her as an engagement party present, but the fact that she had no say or no inclusion in it is really disappointing to me. In my opinion she really needed to have that agency in this episode particularly because she wasn't allowed much else, she wasn't even allowed to be upset.

[benteen]

I didn't watch this episode (except the last 5 minutes), but after reading your comments, I just have to wonder... how can Felicity comfortably work with Team Arrow ever again?  No one supported her:

 

Oliver - broke her heart (and never apologized to her)

Diggle - took Oliver's side

Thea - encouraged/convinced Oliver to continue lying to her

Laurel - constant reminder of BM/past cheating

 

Felicity's got to be feeling pretty alone and abandoned in the Arrowcave.  But of course, if she leaves Team Arrow, she'll get criticized for being selfish.

 

I agree that Felicity had been letting down her guard completely with Oliver.  Remember when Oliver said, "you don't have to be funny with me, you know that, don't you?"  But Oliver is not letting down his guard completely with her.

 

Does anyone honestly believe that they're going to show Oliver fighting or doing anything to get Felicity back?  No, of course not.  It'll be solely an internal conflict in Felicity and then she'll have to be the one to go to Oliver.

 

Yeah, that's a rough one for Felicity.  It would have worked for me if Diggle and Thea had said "Keep it secret but tell Felicity."  In Thea's case, it made absolutely no sense because she knows who destructive Oliver's lying is.  The show tends to view Diggle as bipolar on these kinds of issues so I'm not surprised with his reaction.

 

BTW, yes about Oliver making a video admitting he's the Green Arrow.  Another poor idea on his part.

Edited February 25, 2016 by benteen

[BunsenBurner]

I believe that the EP's think that the difference between Felicity and William in regards to not having a father figure is that William never had one to begin with so Felicity's take on the subject didn't matter. You can't miss what you never had. That is why Oliver didn't ask for her input about William at the end.

 

So again we saw that last week it was okay with Thea to lie to Felicity but when Malcolm lies to her it is not okay. Apparently only the Queens can lie and everyone else must tell the truth.

 

When Felicity's foot starting jerking I knew she was going to get up and walk away but in my head all I could see when she did it was her was her dancing off like Peggy Carter.

Edited February 25, 2016 by BunsenBurner

[dtissagirl]

So in this instance, I do think the decision was between Oliver and Samantha, but don't SHOW me Oliver talking to Diggle and Vixen and not have him at least ASK Felicity what she thinks, if you want me to like Oliver's behavior.

 

This is really the crux of the problem in a pretty striking visual way -- we saw Oliver talk about what it means to be a parent to both Diggle and Mari, but never to the woman he was planning on marrying.

[bijoux]

The flashbacks actually made me happy for the first time, because I didn't pay attention to the credits so I was surprised when Conklin showed up, even if the scene itself was ridiculous. :)

 

I noticed his names and almost cheered. There was a split second where I hoped he would off Poppy. But it's OK. I'm still holding onto the hope that Oliver's the one to do it.

 

a) There is now a video of Oliver admitting he is the Green Arrow. This video is going to be around for at least 8 years. Oliver doesn't know where this video is going to be, who will have access to it and what it might be used for. Oliver is really freakin dumb. 

 

I loved this part! Maybe William even finds out about the uncashed check and decides to get what he has a right to by selling the video to media. Or he just joins the supervillain du jour to get back at Dad. 

[Chaser]

The lack of POV given to Felicity. If I was the trusting sort, I would say it's because it's her POV that is going to be explored over the next episode(s) as opposed to the other players. But since I've been watching this show for too long, I won't say anything so naive. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by Chaser

[bijoux]

Maybe she visits The Flash and we can hear about what she's thinking and feeling then.

[Cthulhudrew]

So, I've been thinking about it, and- do we know that Felicity was really walking out on Oliver? I mean, if I'd just gotten back the use of my legs when I thought I'd be paralyzed for life, the last thing I'd want to do is sit around having an argument with my S.O.

 

:D

 

 

More seriously, though, this biochip would/should revolutionize the Arrowverse, at least for the common citizens. Even in a world now filled with metas and high technology, so far it's all largely been in the hands of individuals using those things for personal reasons (either personal gain/wealth/power or fighting against those who abuse power). Now there is a technology in the hands of a seemingly benevolent corporate entity that can do some wonders for millions of people in the world. I wonder if there will be any follow up or fallout from Curtis' technological breakthrough, or if it just exists solely as a panacea for Felicity's injury?

Edited February 25, 2016 by Cthulhudrew

[Actionmage]

- DD losing his power from a totem we haven't seen before (though the whole scene was cool).  What happened to the box he had?

 

I thought the same thing. It was great that Mari could destroy it, but I thought the blood wall fountain thing was the actual source, as Damien said a prayer/incantation to it with the blood offering.  I remember Anarchy taking it, too, so I don't know where it is. As hard as it was for Mari to destroy, and it seemed to synch with Damien's power loss, I am not trusting DD's incarceration. Damien has been shown to be able to sense Our Heroes, so why not act along with a potentially fake totem being destroyed?  He can cause chaos in the PD and potentially try for some payback after he gets too bored.  (Don't get called to Quentin's office and have a good look around!)

 

BTW, yes about Oliver making a video admitting he's the Green Arrow.  Another poor idea on his part.

 

 

Yup! Here's an idea Oliver: Stay the eff alive long enough to tell William yourself, in person. You may not be the World's Greatest Detective, but you know a brilliant internet genius and know one of the fastest men alive. Both might still talk to you in eight years. If you have apologized enough, the genius might even help you out.

 

The cascade of stupidity that sprang from Oliver not being honest with Felicity makes me wonder if the writers hate Oliver. I get that on a drama, and triply so in comic book shows, that there is going to be tension; it makes the show move. But when you have EPs admit they like the stupid version of your hero and that they intentionally throw the hardest crap they can think of at him, how does that work?  Making a person who can't win ? I didn't sign up for Job: The Super-Hero Years.

[Cthulhudrew]

BTW, regarding Oliver's confession about not being able to tell anyone, and then admitting that Barry, Merlyn, and Thea all knew: In his defense, all three of them found out independently, and he reluctantly confirmed it when confronted with the results of their investigations. It doesn't diminish the silliness of him lying to his most trusted friends/family in the first place, but it's not like he was picking and choosing who to tell the truth to and omitting others (like Felicity).

[bijoux]

You know what I've just realized? Felicity's pink raincoat is the same she wore in 3x09 when Oliver left to die and in 3x12 when she was done with him. Nicely done.

[ComicFan777]

I can totally see William finding the tape and showing all his friends: "My dad is the Green Arrow, so he can come beat you up!"

[tv echo]

Even after learning that Barry, Thea and Malcolm(!) all knew about his son, Oliver still decided not to tell Felicity last week.  She still wouldn't know if not for Darhk.  That's what compounds the stupidity of this storyline.

 

Also, IIRC, when Oliver agreed to Samantha's ultimatum in 408 (revised timeline), he already knew that Barry knew about his son - so he knew the secret was already out to at least one person.

Edited February 25, 2016 by tv echo

[Cthulhudrew]

It just occurred to me: if it took being angry at Oliver to make Felicity's biochip work, does this mean she'll only be able to walk when she flies into a berserker rage? Wolvericity style?

[Guest]

After 4x08 aired, MG talked about Oliver regressing. Regression is generally a bad thing in characters, MG was even treating it as such. So I don't get why they then write an episode that puts Oliver in the right. Diggle and Thea backing him (I'm leaving Laurel out of it because she didn't voice an opinion on his current behavior) when it made no sense. 

 

I honestly think they over corrected. After so many people called out the stupidity of Oliver's actions, they bent over backwards to give him a support system. In doing so they took away one for Felicity.

 

It didn't need to be done either. Diggle could have said that he understand but Felicity still should have been brought in. Or at least expressed sympathy to Felicity. I would have taken a hand on the shoulder. Just Something.

 

I agree. I think they were so concerned with making sure Oliver wasn't hated that they forgot to make sure Felicity wasn't hated too. They had everyone justify Oliver's lie, except for Felicity. Big mistake, IMO.

 

Seriously, Felicity needs an umbrella to protect her from the amount of shit that was thrown at her in this episode. She just got dumped on big time.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Guest

[looptab]

So in this instance, I do think the decision was between Oliver and Samantha, but don't SHOW me Oliver talking to Diggle and Vixen and not have him at least ASK Felicity what she thinks, if you want me to like Oliver's behavior.

 

 

This is really the crux of the problem in a pretty striking visual way -- we saw Oliver talk about what it means to be a parent to both Diggle and Mari, but never to the woman he was planning on marrying.

The worst is that we KNOW that she would be the first person he'd talk to, were it any other episode, any other matter.

 

You know what I've just realized? Felicity's pink raincoat is the same she wore in 3x09 when Oliver left to die and in 3x12 when she was done with him. Nicely done.

Let's burn that coat!!!

[Carrie Ann]

Just him standing up when she did would have made it better for me.

 

There are so many ways that scene could have been the same length, even with the same bad dialogue, just blocked and directed differently and it would have been so much more effective. I think her saying the thing about needing space, or at least taking off the ring, should have been saved for last. It wasn't a shocking move anyway, so it's not like it amped up the emotion of the scene to do it at the outset--in fact, it did the opposite. Having Oliver stand when she did, preferably reaching out as if to spot her in case she stumbled, and having her then walk away would have been better. (Better still would have been to save her actually walking for the montage, and just show her realizing she could move her legs or even stand in this scene.) And SA is very capable of producing a teary face--we've seen it so many times this season directed at Felicity--and I needed to see that. I get that he was emotionally exhausted but I don't care. Resignation may have been logical in this case, but it wasn't compelling or interesting. He can still seem resigned but devastated about it. Ugh, these people seriously do not know how to write to produce emotions.

 

Understandable in the moment, but once she has time to distance herself from it she'll realize that Thea and Barry don't deserve any crap for keeping quiet.  It was Oliver's secret, not theirs, and they had no obligation to tell Felicity when Oliver himself refused.

 

I don't think anyone really feels like it was Barry or Thea's place to tell Felicity. But at the same time, they both gave Oliver advice that amounted to, "It's okay not to tell her." Felicity doesn't know that yet, of course, but I think it's pretty human to still feel hurt that people she considered friends were keeping something from her, and what they're "deserving of" really doesn't matter. If Felicity didn't trust them or see them the same way as she used to, I think that would be a reasonable response. But I doubt we're going to see her freezing Thea out for long, not that we would notice the difference since they barely ever speak to each other anyway. But in this same episode, we had Dig giving Oliver that muddy message of support, and it really did just feel like everyone on the show dismissing the impact this had/would have on Felicity. Speaking of which:

 

Felicity's got to be feeling pretty alone and abandoned in the Arrowcave.  But of course, if she leaves Team Arrow, she'll get criticized for being selfish.

 

Prior to the episode, I couldn't really get on board with this, but now I can. I wouldn't relish it as a viewer because I don't really want to see a bunch of episodes where Felicity is not with the team very much, but it would make sense to me on a character/story level. She's CEO of a company that just came up with two revolutionary pieces of technology that could help a ton of people, and I understand her saying, "I need to look at my goals and re-prioritize how I spend my time." I would prefer to also see Dig, at least, give her some support in the next episode so we know that she still has support there, but I won't expect anything.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[tv echo]

Ugh... I can't stand it when even a few reviewers describe it as a choice between Felicity or his son, and Oliver chose his son.  Oliver could've told Felicity and lied to Samantha about not telling Felicity, without jeopardizing William's safety or his ability to see William.  Oliver's real choice was between being honest with Samantha or being honest with Felicity, and he chose to be honest with the one-night stand who deceived him for 10 years.

Edited February 25, 2016 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

It just occurred to me: if it took being angry at Oliver to make Felicity's biochip work, does this mean she'll only be able to walk when she flies into a berserker rage? Wolvericity style?

Haha! Maybe that's her superpower now. ;)

[dtissagirl]

I didn't even see Felicity as angry at Oliver in that last scene? Just really really hurt and disappointed. And if those are the emotions that kickstart the chip*: yuck.

 

[* I know there were no emotions jumpstarting the chip. Skynet is not in Felicity's spine. Although that's a show that I'd pay monies to watch.]

Edited February 25, 2016 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

They had everyone justify Oliver's lie, except for Felicity. Big mistake, IMO.

She did too, didn't she?

[lemotomato]

I can't believe NO ONE called Oliver out on lying. The world's dumbest lie, told by the world's dumbest "superhero," and no one even mentioned how unnecessary it was.

Felicity did, kind of. At least the part where it was stupid and ineffective:

 

Oliver: William's mother made the condition that the only way I would be allowed to meet my son is if I agreed to keep him secret. Even from you.

Felicity: Who even makes that kind of ultimatum?

Oliver: A mother just trying to protect her son, and she thought the best thing for him was to keep his world separate from mine. After everything that's happened, can you really say that she was wrong?

Felicity: Well, it didn't work, did it? Somehow Darhk still found out.

 

The problem is that 1) This conversation happened right at the beginning, so the point of his lie/secret keeping getting them into this situation in the first place was lost and 2) As the episode went on, other characters absolved Oliver of the lie-- Diggle and BM-- so Felicity was framed to be on the "wrong" side of "was Oliver right to lie/keep the secret?" and it didn't even matter what she thought. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by lemotomato

[Guest]

She did too, didn't she?

 

Haha yeah. She did. And she still left anyway. O_o

[NumberCruncher]

Silver lining about this mess of an episode? Thea finally being done with the POS that is Malcolm Merlyn. Maybe now that she doesn't care whether he lives or dies Oliver won't either. Um...who am I kidding? Of course he will because Oliver Queen is his own worst enemy.

[writersblock51]

 

The cascade of stupidity that sprang from Oliver not being honest with Felicity makes me wonder if the writers hate Oliver. I get that on a drama, and triply so in comic book shows, that there is going to be tension; it makes the show move. But when you have EPs admit they like the stupid version of your hero and that they intentionally throw the hardest crap they can think of at him, how does that work?  Making a person who can't win ? I didn't sign up for Job: The Super-Hero Years.

 

This is where I've been at for some time this season and this episode seems to be the culmination.  I don't understand the appeal that MG (and others) have about regressing their hero and lead.  Again.  One of the most frustrating parts of watching this show from the beginning is seeing Oliver repeating the same mistakes and not learning from them.

 

Felicity is right - it's the very definition of insanity.  Yet here we are. 

 

What would be refreshing is that he finally learn a lot from what's unfolded - that he can be supportive AND supported.  That he can tell secrets to the people who have kept his secrets FOR YEARS.  That he has resources that not all people have - money, a military & security specialist, the fastest man alive, the police department in 2 cities, a couple of tech geniuses and his own skills.   All of these have defeated improbable enemies and conditions for the past 3+ years.

 

So why would keeping such a personal secret (that he knew Malcolm knew about) from this team be a good idea on any level?

 

And the video?  One can only hope he used a laptop and network that Felicity already set up with security protocol but what about how it's stored long term and who receives it?

 

Does the show actually respect their hero?  They may say they do but this is more telling than showing on their part.  And it's 4 years into them showing that they think he's never going to fully mature into someone who can love, trust and respect.

[arjumand]

Um at least we got confirmation they only slept together once.... I did appreciate knowing that fact.

And BM seemed pretty reasonable this episode, I don't understand why they felt they needed to take the story in this direction of contrived drama. So many better ways to tell the story... but whatever it's over.

 

 

The thing is, that just made me angrier. I mean, she's sitting with Felicity, the woman who's engaged to Oliver, and who had to listen to three months of lies because of her bullshit, and she's being all reasonable, and you mustn't blame him and all that shit.

 

And Felicity is sitting there, with a fixed smile on her face, and she has to be polite. Because she's civilised. In the meantime, what she's thinking is this (or rather, what I would be thinking):

 

"Lady, Oliver stuck his dick in you once, ten years ago. Why the fuck should I listen to anything you say?"

 

I mean, that whole conversation between Oliver and Samantha, with the 'you're his mother, it's your decision!' And then 'But you're his father!' All the while Felicity is looking on, her fixed half-smile is starting to hurt her cheek muscles, and she's wondering how long she can keep this "I am a patient and saintly fiancee" schtick up.

 

The break up scene was short and not at all satisfying (though at least none of them said anything unforgivable, lol). I would have preferred the empty loft scenario, with ring left on table for Oliver to find. But I'm an evil bitch like that.

 

Diggle, oh lord. But I don't know why I expected anything else - being a man and a father, it was obvious (in retrospect) that they were going to write him as being totally on Oliver's side.

 

I don't know. While the breakup scene was really short, thinking about it, I love that Felicity walked out on him in the middle of a conversation. "Things are happening on my terms, now, Oliver."

 

Now, my wish for getting together again is Oliver actually doing something proactive, which doesn't involve a kind of afterthought in the middle of a grand season -ending speech about something else entirely.

[AyChihuahua]

Silver lining about this mess of an episode? Thea finally being done with the POS that is Malcolm Merlyn. Maybe now that she doesn't care whether he lives or dies Oliver won't either. Um...who am I kidding? Of course he will because Oliver Queen is his own worst enemy.

Well yeah, except that she cut ties even more definitively in S3, and look how that turned out.

 

What are the chances the mayor thing is really done? If he just suspended his campaign he could restart it in Beacon of Hope, right?

[thegirlsleuth]

I agree with everyone's comments. I felt like this episode lacked a certain urgency or vitality, which was partly due to Amell playing depressed in most of the emotional scenes. I was not surprised that everyone co-signed Oliver's lie, but did appreciate Felicity's logical poking holes in his arguments as to why he did it and the look of frustration she gave him as it was revealed how many people knew. I think the breakup scene was hurt by Amell playing the scene depressed, which I get from a character standpoint, but which made the whole thing blah.

I loved Thea calling Malcolm on his lies--I will overlook last week--as well as her motorcycle shooting trick. I really liked Laurel this week which was confusing. I liked Mari, and she had a superhero presence, but she wouldn't work as a regular unless Arrow significantly upped their CGI budget.

One thing I laughed at: every time they went to the lair Felicity went from hair down to ponytail of Serious Business. This includes the trip from the upstairs campaign office to the underground lair. She worked FAST on that elevator ride.

[nksarmi]

Ugh... I can't stand it when even a few reviewers describe it as a choice between Felicity or his son, and Oliver chose his son.  Oliver could've told Felicity and lied to Samantha about not telling Felicity, without jeopardizing William's safety or his ability to see William.  Oliver's real choice was between being honest with Samantha or being honest with Felicity, and he chose to be honest with the one-night stand who deceived him for 10 years.

 

And as others have pointed out - he wasn't even 100% honest with Samantha.  Because at no point did Samantha say, "How do you KNOW he's yours?" to which Oliver replied, "I stole a piece of his hair and had a friend run a DNA test."  So yea, when he agrees to Samantha's terms, he's leaving out the little fact that Barry already knows.  So, it's kind of more like "I won't tell anyone - else."

 

Plus, it's also obvious that he doesn't even think in terms of a public figure when Thea figures it out (other people were looking up those financial records too) because at that point, he doesn't call Samantha up and say "Hey, in the process of researching my family's background, my campaign people came across the record of the check my mom wrote you and Thea put two and two together - other people might too.  I need to tell Felicity just in case someone else digs this up and it comes out in the press."

 

That's just ignoring the whole a villain with a grudge against me because I chopped off his hand and took away his seat of power just vowed vengeance against me and just a few hours earlier was asking me how I would feel if I had to choose between my son and my city - now why should he tell anyone after THAT!?!?!

 

So yeah, Oliver already WAS being dishonest with Samantha.  He just choose to ALSO be dishonest with Felicity.  This is where it should circle back to Barry and his big mouth where he told Oliver when Felicity found out she dumped him.  Come on show, at least give me a reason WHY Oliver continued to lie!

[looptab]

I was especially bothered by the conversation with Diggle. Not only because Diggle justified Oliver. But because Oliver starts asking him how does he do that, being a father, and then it led to the convo with Vixen, and the final decision, while I'm sitting there thinking:

"You weren't even trying to be his father in the first place, you idiot!".

Basically it's all pointless. 

 

Oliver: A mother just trying to protect her son, and she thought the best thing for him was to keep his world separate from mine. After everything that's happened, can you really say that she was wrong?

Felicity: Well, it didn't work, did it? Somehow Darhk still found out.

 

This dialogue it's the reason I can never reconcile with this storyline. Right there, there's the writer failure to grasp their own story. Oliver points out it's good to keep William separate from his world - because he is the Green Arrow. But Samantha didn't.freaking.know. this. Meanwhile, William was kidnapped because of Oliver Queen, not the Green Arrow. So?? Gahhh. It doesn't make sense from any angle.

Edited February 25, 2016 by looptab

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Arrow Brings Out Vixen
A superheroine from a webseries crossover tries her hand at fighting Damien Darhk.

[looptab]

Ignore!

Edited February 25, 2016 by looptab

[Carrie Ann]

And as others have pointed out - he wasn't even 100% honest with Samantha.[ ...]So yea, when he agrees to Samantha's terms, he's leaving out the little fact that Barry already knows.  So, it's kind of more like "I won't tell anyone - else."

[...]

he doesn't call Samantha up and say "Hey, in the process of researching my family's background, my campaign people came across the record of the check my mom wrote you and Thea put two and two together - other people might too.  I need to tell Felicity just in case someone else digs this up and it comes out in the press."

 

That's just ignoring the whole a villain with a grudge against me because I chopped off his hand and took away his seat of power just vowed vengeance against me and just a few hours earlier was asking me how I would feel if I had to choose between my son and my city - now why should he tell anyone after THAT!?!?!

 

So yeah, Oliver already WAS being dishonest with Samantha.  He just choose to ALSO be dishonest with Felicity. [...] Come on show, at least give me a reason WHY Oliver continued to lie!

 

The show just couldn't fix itself on the narrative/motivation through-lines they wanted from this William story (because it wasn't really a story but a shipbreaker), but yeah, Oliver was lying to Samantha too, from the beginning, and then continued to withhold relevant information from her that could have protected William. It's not like I think he should have told her right off the bat that he was the GA, but as we saw in this episode, it's certainly a factor when it comes to William's well-being, and ultimately she would deserve to know, IMO, if they were going to tell William that Oliver was his father and allow them to have a relationship. But instead of having her play it like she was freaked out that her son was now connected to this vigilante situation, as soon as she learned the truth, she just seemed impressed, pleased with Oliver's growth over the last decade, and ultimately, like, proud of Oliver being the GA. (Ewwww, I hated those scenes so much.)

 

Anyway, that would have been an interesting parallel situation to Oliver lying to Felicity--the thing where he thinks he needs to just take care of everything by himself, so he won't call Samantha to warn her that threats to William's identity and safety have arisen--but they didn't treat it like that. Anyway! This episode was poorly written and thought-out, and I will hope that the next batch of episodes get more deeply into Felicity's feelings and Oliver's realization of his failings.

[WaitandHope]

I think I expected Buffy/Angel level heartbreak -- and instead I felt "eh, she's probably better off without him."   While not as dramatically interesting, their break-up was very them. And it's calm rationality is probably saving Felicity from being excoriated by the comic fanboys right now, so I think that was actually pretty crafty by MG and the writers to not make her overly emotional. 

 

Basically, Felicity's line to Oliver about "insanity meaning doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result" was the signal of the break-up so Oliver knew it was coming.  He could tell by her face and what she wasn't saying the whole episode.  (BTW, this is not a correct definition for insanity, but that's another rant for another day.) 

 

I thought the Olicity beats in the episode were its best parts. 

 

Vixen was also good.  I was impressed that the effects worked at all without making me laugh - so I consider that a win in Arrowland.  MEK was so much better in this than the 4400, so I was pleasantly surprised. 

 

The lack of urgency about the kidnapping was simply odd.  But I guess when someone is on their deathbed every week, it totally lowers the intensity level of a 10 YO kidnapping.  And my kids are 10 - they are MUCH MUCH smarter than this dunderhead.  

 

Laurel's POV scene was really great.  (Probably means she is near her death). 

 

Thea.  Thank GOD!  FINALLY kicking Malcolm to the curb!

 

Diggle's POV was the nadir of the episode -- even lower than the flashbacks and anything with Samantha.  Truly the worst.  This -- and Diggle's advice to turn Roy into the police when Roy was dreaming about maybe killing Sara -- is Diggle's worst character moment.  It made zero common sense and was antithetical to everything we know about his character. 

 

My kids cheered the break-up.  They totally relate to Felicity and not to Oliver, who they actually believe it too old for her anyway.  Sorry, SA, from the mouths of babes...

[dtissagirl]

One thing I laughed at: every time they went to the lair Felicity went from hair down to ponytail of Serious Business. This includes the trip from the upstairs campaign office to the underground lair. She worked FAST on that elevator ride.

 

HA! I really appreciated that, because my main ~putting my game face on~ move is to put my hair up in a bun.

[benteen]

I was especially bothered by the conversation with Diggle. Not only because Diggle justified Oliver. But because Oliver starts asking him how does he do that, being a father, and then it led to the convo with Vixen, and the final decision, while I'm sitting there thinking:

"You weren't even trying to be his father in the first place, you idiot!".

Basically it's all pointless. 

 

This dialogue it's the reason I can never reconcile with this storyline. Right there, there's the writer failure to grasp their own story. Oliver points out it's good to keep William separate from his world - because he is the Green Arrow. But Samantha didn't.freaking.know. this. Meanwhile, William was kidnapped because of Oliver Queen, not the Green Arrow. So?? Gahhh. It doesn't make sense from any angle.

 

I'm sure the writer didn't think that was a concern.  They never do on Arrow.  Though in fairness, Samantha did know that Oliver's mother was murdered and probably knew that Oliver had been accused twice of being a vigilante.  This on top of the fact that he was running for Mayor.  Even without knowing he was the Green Arrow, there was a lot of public information to know that Oliver's life was a dangerous mess.

 

I'm still trying to figure out why Malcolm didn't Dhark that Oliver was the Green Arrow.  Better yet, how doesn't Dhark know that already.  Ol Master of Mysticism doesn't seem to notice that Oliver and the Green Arrow have the same exact facial hair!

Edited February 25, 2016 by benteen

[calliope1975]

Oliver's such an idiot. His video to the Spawn probably went out to a direct feed of the Villains R Us channel. I bet Slade's already making plans in his tiny cell. 

[JenMD]

The lack of urgency about the kidnapping was simply odd. 

 

I find this is a pretty regular problem for me with this show. I don't know know if it's more writing or directing but it bugs.

 

Speaking of directing (and maybe editing?), there was one shot of the hallway fight that I had to rewind twice to figure out what was actually happening because my sister was convinced that one of the bad guys bent over and hit his own head on the table.  What actually happened was Thea kicked him and he fell over, but the camera cut the scene in such a weird way that it looked like he was knocking himself out.  It was kind of hilarious at the time.

 

And speaking of Thea, I'd care more about her having it out with Malcolm if I thought it'd stick.  I hope it does, but I hope for a lot of things with this show and am continually let down.  So...

[Xenith22]

I'm still trying to figure out why Malcolm didn't Dhark that Oliver was the Green Arrow.

Probably because he doesn't want to risk putting Thea in the crosshairs of HIVE, which there is a great possibility that everyone Oliver knows would become fair game if HIVE knew he were Green Arrow.   Also I thought the way Malcolm finished his speech about how he would rather she hate him and live was rather interesting as that also raises the possibility that maybe he did actually join HIVE in order to undermine their plan to destroy Star City?   In which case he may still want Oliver/Green Arrow around for something...  Or finally maybe he just wants to retain the power of being one of the few (at least villainwise) that knows GA's identity.  I mean currently its knowledge he can potentially exploit to his advantage, and he may not be done seeking revenge.   If he reveals it to HIVE and they go public with it then he loses that power.

[MadMouse]

Wow that ending might have been some of the worst few minutes in TV in a long time, I was getting Chuck S3 vibes from it. I know its not but I hope this is the beginning of the end of Olicity. I don't know if its intentional or not but writing Feilcity constantly making everything about her has made her a completely unlikable character. Sending your son away to protect him but what about me Oliver, almost dying what about me Oliver. Good lord. Best part is she forgot her own advice from last week to her mother about people lying to protect them or whatever crap she forgot.

 

I hope this means we get S1 and 2 Oliver back, none of him jobbing to these mooks every episode. Unless the bat embargo is lifted dude is the top tier fighter in this universe and he should be written this way. No more making him weak to prop up Thea and Laurel. And speaking of Laurel wow what a 180 her character has done, seriously if Amell had a quarter of the chemistry he had with any other love interest he's had I'd be pushing for that end game. At this point I don't want any romance for him because it drags the whole show down with. Unless its with his true love Slade.

[venusnv80]

I watched for Vixen. I liked Vixen (except, I would prefer a short haircut just because...) and that was about all that I cared about.

No wait...my eyes did just about roll out of my head when Felicity could suddenly walk...no problem...all the way to the door.

[mommalib]

Wow that ending might have been some of the worst few minutes in TV in a long time, I was getting Chuck S3 vibes from it. I know its not but I hope this is the beginning of the end of Olicity. I don't know if its intentional or not but writing Feilcity constantly making everything about her has made her a completely unlikable character. Sending your son away to protect him but what about me Oliver, almost dying what about me Oliver. Good lord. Best part is she forgot her own advice from last week to her mother about people lying to protect them or whatever crap she forgot.

 

I hope this means we get S1 and 2 Oliver back, none of him jobbing to these mooks every episode. Unless the bat embargo is lifted dude is the top tier fighter in this universe and he should be written this way. No more making him weak to prop up Thea and Laurel. And speaking of Laurel wow what a 180 her character has done, seriously if Amell had a quarter of the chemistry he had with any other love interest he's had I'd be pushing for that end game. At this point I don't want any romance for him because it drags the whole show down with. Unless its with his true love Slade.

Yeah I hope him and Felicity are done for while. I just want Oliver to focus on being a super hero and kicking ass.

[statsgirl]

I just realized that in the video to William, Oliver said "I'm the Green Arrow and my life is very dangerous which is why we decided to keep you out of it for all these years." 

 

There was no "we" about it, Samantha made the decision entirely on her own.  And it wasn't because his life was dangerous since she didn't know about the Arrow bit at all, it was because she thought he was a playboy douchebag.

 

So without Felicity, Oliver has now moved on to not just lying to his Team, but lying to his son as well.  Well done, show.

 

ETA:

I'm also very offended that Oliver uprooted William's life without talking to any of the three people, Diggle, Felicity and Thea, who should be his confidantes in this.

Edited February 25, 2016 by statsgirl

[dtissagirl]

Felicity getting up and walking at the end turned everything into an unfunny parody of what a dramatic narrative should be, but I went back to read the dialog transcript [because no way hell I'm gonna rewatch this hot mess], and if I manage to stop LOLing my ass off for a second, I think Felicity legit just made the most mature and informed decision anyone has ever done on this show.
 
Felicity: Let's start with... I can't do this. When your son was in danger, I had to table what I was feeling about everything, but now that I've had some space, I realize I need space.
 
Oliver: Felicity.
 
Felicity: I know the position Samantha put you in, I know it was an impossible decision, but you were right. You should have told me. Marriage is about inclusion. It's about leaning on your partner when things get complicated. I don't think that you know how to do that.
 
Oliver: I'm--I'm trying.
 
Felicity: And now you're sending William away, and I understand why. You know that I do, but once again, you have left me out of the decision.

 

What makes this interesting to me is this is about what Felicity wants to be as a partner. It's actually more about herself than it is about Oliver. She wants to be able to support her partner emotionally when he needs that. And she was missing so much information here, that she couldn't even see she wasn't being allowed to be the partner she wants to be.

 

It breaks my heart for her, really, because I'm sure up until now she thought she was being a supportive partner in every single way that mattered to Oliver. But she wasn't, and it was his doing.

Edited February 25, 2016 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

I just realized that in the video to William, Oliver said "I'm the Green Arrow and my life is very dangerous which is why we decided to keep you out of it for all these years."

There was no "we" about it, Samantha made the decision entirely on her own. And it wasn't because his life was dangerous since she didn't know about the Arrow bit at all, it was because she thought he was a playboy douchebag.

So without Felicity, Oliver has now moved on to not just lying to his Team, but lying to his son as well. Well done, show.

I think he meant the "all these years" as in the years between when Oliver and Samantha decided that she should move away with William, and William's 18th birthday, when he said that he asked Samantha to show him the video. Edited February 25, 2016 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

The thing is, that just made me angrier. I mean, she's sitting with Felicity, the woman who's engaged to Oliver, and who had to listen to three months of lies because of her bullshit, and she's being all reasonable, and you mustn't blame him and all that shit.

And Felicity is sitting there, with a fixed smile on her face, and she has to be polite. Because she's civilised. In the meantime, what she's thinking is this (or rather, what I would be thinking):

"Lady, Oliver stuck his dick in you once, ten years ago. Why the fuck should I listen to anything you say?"

I mean, that whole conversation between Oliver and Samantha, with the 'you're his mother, it's your decision!' And then 'But you're his father!' All the while Felicity is looking on, her fixed half-smile is starting to hurt her cheek muscles, and she's wondering how long she can keep this "I am a patient and saintly fiancee" schtick up.

The break up scene was short and not at all satisfying (though at least none of them said anything unforgivable, lol). I would have preferred the empty loft scenario, with ring left on table for Oliver to find. But I'm an evil bitch like that.

Diggle, oh lord. But I don't know why I expected anything else - being a man and a father, it was obvious (in retrospect) that they were going to write him as being totally on Oliver's side.

I don't know. While the breakup scene was really short, thinking about it, I love that Felicity walked out on him in the middle of a conversation. "Things are happening on my terms, now, Oliver."

Now, my wish for getting together again is Oliver actually doing something proactive, which doesn't involve a kind of afterthought in the middle of a grand season -ending speech about something else entirely.

Agree with most of your points. I guess for me I was just curious if it was a long affair or a one night stand. I wasn't really thinking about it in terms of FS.

Dig didn't real get to say much. I think he took OQ side about the initial ultimatum. So did I. It was once MM found out that everything changed. I feel like that speech was before we found out about MM. I'm sure they were very careful to not have Dig talk to him after that. I can understand Dig supporting his decision to have a relationship with his son. Because I think FS would have agreed with a Dig if we were ever able to hear her PoV.

I'm glad the BM actually confessed to FS that it was her ultimatum and OQ wanted to tell FS. The biggest problem is that they needed FS to be mad at him and they needed a reason for the break-up which is why OQ had to make the last decision about being in W life without talking to anyone but Vixen. I feel like she would have forgiven him for the ultimatum portion but then the writers would have no plot or story. Well they could have a more creative story but that's a whole other story. It's so dumb.

Edited February 25, 2016 by kismet