S04.E15: Taken

[inconstancy]

Oliver is such a wiener.

 

... Annnnnd I guess that's all I have to say about this episode. See you all next month!

[benteen]

What happens to William is between Oliver and Samantha.  That's not Felicity's decision whatsoever.  But I do get that he should have at least talked to her about what he was going to do first.

[TVHappy9463]

That was horrible. And the preview for after the break doesn't make me want to come back. Thanks for ruining the show and characters I once loved. Those actors should be fighting each other to be lucky enough to be the one in the grave.

[Angel12d]

What happens to William is between Oliver and Samantha.  That's not Felicity's decision whatsoever.  But I do get that he should have at least talked to her about what he was going to do first.

 

I feel like there might be a misunderstanding in what Felicity was saying there. I don't think she was asking to help make the decision about William. I think she just wanted to be told about it, to be let in on how Oliver was feeling and what he was thinking of doing. And it's a huge thing for Oliver to decide not to be in his son's life. Wouldn't you tell your fiancé about it?

 

Plus Felicity has a unique perspective and experience in that she grew up without her father and could have given Oliver some advice. I think that's how I read that moment. And still Oliver chose not to include her at all.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Angel12d

[thuganomics85]

Well, I didn't hate it, but that's because this episode provided more laughs then a lot of comedies that are out there.  Submit this in the Emmy comedy category, stat!

 

Where to start?  First off, Damien dropping the kidnap bombshell lived up to my expectation.  Loved him just showing up (because I guess he just stalks Oliver/Felicity wherever they go?), and practically laughing in Oliver's face as he told him the news.  All while Oliver could only simply look up from the phone and look all flummoxed like the incompetent dummy he's become.  Thank you, Damien Dahrk!  That was so satisfying.

 

But, nope.  The main course was him finally being force to telling Felicity and how that all went down. First, I'm glad that she remained calm simply because I so did not want to hear all the shit from other parts of the internet, if she started crying.  Nope, instead she was ice cold and I loved it.  Loved every single moment where she picked apart his stupid logic, and how he pretty much realized how stupid he was.  The kicker was him admitting that while she didn't know, Thea, Barry, and Malcolm did.  OK, Thea is understandable, but even the biggest idiot in the world should realize that something is wrong when one of your biggest enemies knows about your son, while you're supposed "love of your life" doesn't (not to mention your goofy, little superhero brother, who can't keep secrets to save his life.)  But, nope.  Oliver is that slow on the uptake.  Classic Oliver.

 

And then there is Felicity finding out Oliver was going to send Samantha and William away, without even giving her a heads up, and not only does she finally break it off, he makes her so damn mad, that it compels Curtis' magical chip to finally get her to WALK AGAIN!  No, not just standing up.  She totally had the strength to walk out the fucking door, because Oliver ability to make someone hate his ass is that powerful!  That is what I'm choosing to believe!

 

Then there is Samantha who not only barrels her way into Oliver's life again, but already gets to find out his identity and gets to hang out in the lair.  They really should have just done what Roy said a season ago, and start selling tickets to the Arrow Cave, because they would make a killing.  Who hasn't been in the lair, at this rate? Whatever; she's back, yells at Oliver, but now she is reunited with William, and he sends them off to wherever characters this show no longer needs go.  They're probably chilling with characters like Sin, Jeri Ryan's candidate for mayor, and Walter.

 

The stuff with Vixen was fun at least, although Diggle's casual reactions to her powers is weird since he still freaks the fuck out over Barry.  I would think flying and having the strength of a gorilla would be way more of a mindfuck then fast running.

 

Can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually liked Laurel's stuff.  It was nice to be reminded that Oliver wronged her back then, and as Quentin said, knowing you were cheating on is one thing, but finding out one of the other girls got pregnant, is another.  Yep, I'm actually saying this: poor Laurel.  Thanks a lot, Dumbass Oliver.

 

Even the flashbacks were somewhat more amusing, because it's just gotten full-blown stupid with Demon Conker, Ryder toying with them like chumps, and Poppy's accent somehow getting even worse.  It's just total amateur hour over there.

 

Glad Thea told off Malcolm, but of course, they had to end the scene with Malcolm screaming about how everything he did was to protect her, so it makes look like the show wants to me to agree with him on some levels.  Because things like drugging her and making her kill Sara was totally good for her, huh?  Fuck off, Malcolm.

 

I guess Oliver resigning means the campaign story is done for, which seems like a waste.  But I guess they could try to expose Damien's wife, but I'm not sure how. Either way, I wonder if Alex will be back or if he'll be joining Samantha and William in the land of Lost Characters.

 

Without his tome, Damien is apparently a lame fighter.  Then again, this season already established that Anarky is apparently the true master of fighting.  Even the LOA can't touch his skills!

 

Well, this was a blast, but kind of for the wrong reasons.  I just can't wait to see what other stuff is going to bite Oliver on the ass; especially since he'll deserve most of it.

Edited February 25, 2016 by thuganomics85

[Cthulhudrew]

What I didn't like:

 

1) They'd shown us hints of his source of power all season, but it still felt like the Dahrk defeat was a little bit rushed.

2) The fight scenes were pretty clunky, particularly where the girls (Thea, Laurel, Mari) were concerned. They came across as very awkward, as if they were afraid of hurting the girls. Thea's were better than the rest, but as for Laurel? I'd say it's because Katie Cassidy just still hasn't really learned to do fight scenes after all this time, but since it was pretty across the board, I'm guessing it's more the choreography, which is a shame.

3) The flashbacks are not good. They frankly haven't been good since last season and the Hong Kong stuff, but I miss when they actually seemed relevant in some manner to what was going on in the present day.

4) For all that they seemed intent on using this William Lie nonsense to ratchet up the drama, they really tried to defuse it a lot, too, as if they didn't realize until seeing how fandom reacted just how big a hole they'd written themselves into.

5) Some very clunky dialogue. Vixen's line about "without this talisman, I'd just be a wannabe fashion designer who lives at home with her foster parents" being a notably awful bit of exposition loosely disguised as "natural" speech.

 

What I did like:

 

1) Many of the heart to heart scenes were well done by the actors, even given the somewhat untenable situation brought about by Oliver's (the writers') lie. In particular, I really enjoyed Laurel's scene with her dad, and that they gave that character an opportunity to react to the situation (both of them, really). I actually don't dislike Katie Cassidy and I kind of like Laurel on the show, when they give her a chance. I liked her best in the first season, and I think her character's storyline has suffered constantly from some missteps by the writers, so I enjoy these kind of scenes. It's one thing that I really liked about the early part of this season that Arrow had sort of slipped away from in recent episodes- that they've given the characters a lot of moments of reflection and growth.

2) Even though I felt the Darhk story was kind of rushed, I'm impressed by the way they decided to bring us to that (seeming) conclusion, via Vixen's character, and her mystic background. Since they couldn't bring Constantine back into things (sniff! Give 'em Hell, Matt Ryan!), it seemed pretty clever how this came about. I wonder if this was a last minute thing, or if they'd actually been planning this for a long time. Either way, well done (though I'd be even more satisfied with a little more development- ie, introducing Vixen in an earlier episode or something).

3) Vixen. Despite the clunky dialogue they gave her in some places and some awkward choreography, I really enjoyed her character and the actress portraying her. I haven't watched the cartoon, but I'd definitely watch a live action tv show with this character.

 

Overall, I liked the episode quite a bit. Curious to see where the end game is going here. I've had a sense that Ruve might be the greater evil of the Dahrk family since her introduction, and I'm wondering if that will turn out to be the case, or if Damien is going to get back into the mix. I'm pretty sure at this point that Malcolm is the one that Felicity tells Oliver to kill now, and after this episode I think his character has definitely run its course.

[Lady Calypso]

So, I decided, against my better judgement, to watch the episode. It's like ripping off a Band-Aid.

 

Lots of anger, lots of frustration, but I expected a LOT worse. It wasn't a good episode, but it certainly could have been worse.

 

I was happy that Oliver got walked out on. I laughed, because who predicted it on here a couple of months ago that they would do this for the drama? And it happened. He deserved a lot more anger at him, but of course it's only Felicity that is really angry. Laurel got a little moment of sadness, at least, and being hurt. I just wanted more of that. I wanted Dig to be angry too.

 

They had the breakup be soft, though. Maybe too soft, but having Oliver lose his fiance, his son and his candidacy was definitely karma. Yes, Oliver, if you had told Felicity...chances are this probably still would have happened. Jesus. Surprisingly, though, I didn't mind Felicity's moments with Oliver this episode. Her moment with Oliver in the campaign office? I was ok with it. I think that they need space, and Oliver needs to fight for Felicity, but the anger was directed at the fact that he didn't trust her. Out of all the angles they could have went with, this one worked the best. It didn't sever their relationship in that it can't be repaired, but I think it worked better than intense anger or silent rage. Disappointment always works best, and she was disappointed. 

 

So yes, having Felicity tell him that she needs space isn't ideal, but it works the best for me. Last season, Felicity was very angry at Oliver several times and this time, she didn't showcase her anger that much. I wish there was more anger, but...again, I pictured a lot worse. And I didn't think Felicity didn't get a voice. Laurel only voiced her opinion to her father, not even Samantha or Oliver. Felicity got to have the final speech, so that worked well for me. Also, maybe it feels more realistic. I think cliche TV breakups either have the person already gone with their stuff moved out, or intense blind rage that has a screaming match and crying. Sure, the getting up from the wheelchair moment was as cliched as it gets, but the breakup moment actually worked because it felt more realistic. Not to say that yelling and crying isn't realistic, but this was a different approach and one that worked well.

 

Vixen was a good character. I'm ok with her being a one-off, but I think they did need to fight magic with magic at this point. 

 

I have such blind ragey feelings toward Samantha, it's not even funny. Congrats Samantha; somehow, you bypassed Laurel as the most hated this episode. That's how I feel just right now, at least. Her judgement and her inability to do anything right was infuriating. I hate her immensely and hope her and William stay in Offscreenville for a long, long, long time. There can be a flashforward at the end of the series where William comes to have dinner with Oliver, and Samantha is nowhere to be found. I never, ever want to see her face on this show ever again. EVER. Because we know Oliver is not a great guy, and he's a pretty shitty person right now, but Samantha is ten times worse. 

 

I can't really remember what else I wanted to say; my rage for Samantha has made me forget anything else. 

[HighHopes]

Did Barry know who Oliver's son was?  He knew Oliver had a son, but I thought he didn't know who he was.  He only approached Samantha after Felicity called him.

 

He would have been in Earth 2 when William got taken, and shortly after returning ARGUS brought him in to help them, so there's the possibility he had no idea about it.

Correct me if I am wrong (I was drinking wine and rage watching so it's possible I didn't get the correct information) but it was Barry who told Samantha to go see Oliver about William being missing. Her line was something about "Then a CSI tech told me to come talk to you". Felicity never called him, because Barry already knew that William was missing. 

[Angel12d]

The whole break-up would have been a hundred times better if Felicity had just left the ring and wheeled away. Her suddenly being able to walk removed any emotional punch from the scene, IMO.

 

But as they did have her walk away, it would have been nice to see Oliver maybe get out of his chair or have more of a reaction. I know he was supposed to be 'broken' and downhearted in that moment but I wasn't exactly impressed with SA's acting choices there. He was just so resigned but it wasn't good enough for me. Even a tear would have helped. LOL.

 

If this doesn't lead to Oliver actually fighting for Felicity, I don't really know what the point was tbh.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Angel12d

[thuganomics85]

I forgot to mention that I loved that no one questioned who told Damien about William, until Thea did.  Normally, I would say the show just didn't have time, but with Oliver the way he is lately, I could totally see him not being sure it wasn't Barry.  I can see him on the phone, yelling at Barry all "Malcolm's related!  He wouldn't ever do it!!!  You sure you didn't tell Damien!?  Positive?!!!  How can I trust you?!  You might be lying to me, you little bastard!  Answer me!!!"

Edited February 25, 2016 by thuganomics85

[hogwash]

 

If this doesn't lead to Oliver actually fighting for Felicity, I don't really know what the point was tbh.

 

Right?! We better get something out of this. Especially, after the plot devices drove out of town never(please) to be heard from again. Give us something besides that lame breakup. 

[SleepDeprived]

1. Damien Darhk continues to be one of Arrow's best ever villains, even when he's just waving his arms around and taking joy in strangling people. And he takes time to offer his opponents constructive criticism! And he's helping out the Star City economy by buying new television sets! I like this guy. I hope he gets a new totem thingy soon.

 

I loved that Darhk was so proud and boastful of the fact that he has a brand new television set. I really hope his incarceration doesn't dampen his sass.

[HunterHunted]

The one thing I do wish Felicity would have said is that if Oliver had told her about William, she wouldn't of said a word about him to anyone.

Felicity even made a point to describe William as a 10 year old that Darhk had hostage. Except for going back in time during the Legends of Tomorrow crossover, everything about Felicity would lead you to believe that she would be secretive and supportive.

I'm only a little bit sympathetic towards Oliver because Samantha, the baby mama, was an unreasonable strident fishwife. Additionally, my own family went through something kinda similar.

My dad was a condescending cheating asshole. He cheated on his girlfriend who was pregnant with my older half brother. She bolted and he never heard from her for 12 years. He hired a private investigator and couldn't find her. Twelve years after she bolted, my dad ran into one of her relatives who spilled the beans about her location and the existence of my half brother. It took four years of lawyers and visits, much like Oliver's, before she would let my dad reveal that he was my brother's father. During that time, none of my siblings or family knew that we had an older half brother. My mom knew, but I have an even older half brother who found out the same time I did. My hidden half brother's mother never spoke the relative who spilled the beans ever again. As we got know my half brother and his mother, we learned that she was a lovely kind person. But my father did a number on her. That's why I sympathize with Oliver even only a little bit because I know my dad who had mostly stopped being an ass 12 years later, but was desperate not to rock the boat so he could have his son in his life.

[aslightjump]

I feel like there might be a misunderstanding in what Felicity was saying there. I don't think she was asking to help make the decision about William. I think she just wanted to be told about it, to be let in on how Oliver was feeling and what he was thinking of doing. And it's a huge thing for Oliver to decide not to be in his son's life. Wouldn't you tell your fiancé about it?

 

Plus Felicity has a unique perspective and experience in that she grew up without her father and could have given Oliver some advice. I think that's how I read that moment. And still Oliver chose not to include her at all.

Yeah, this is what I meant in regards to my post earlier...that was a really, really badly written line that didn't do Felicity a whole lot of favors. Her point in general was correct. Oliver should learn how to open himself up to her more. If they're going to get married, they need to be able to communicate. Her timing and the stupid phrasing of that line and the dumbass I can walk again moment kind of ruined everything else.

[quarks]

Did Barry know who Oliver's son was?  He knew Oliver had a son, but I thought he didn't know who he was.  He only approached Samantha after Felicity called him.

 

He would have been in Earth 2 when William got taken, and shortly after returning ARGUS brought him in to help them, so there's the possibility he had no idea about it.

 

The timeline shows that Samantha and Barry both suck:

 

1. Damien informs Oliver and Felicity that William has been kidnapped. 

 

2. Oliver and Felicity arrive at the Arrow Lair, apparently just a few minutes later since Oliver is begging Felicity to talk to him. Within one minute Thea, Laurel and Diggle show up. Oliver tells them that Barry and Malcolm both know; Thea admits that she knows. Felicity says that it might be better to tell her who doesn't know. At that moment, the phone rings, telling them that Samantha is upstairs.

 

Admittedly, Arrow and Flash have both been pretty loose with this timeline, but it seems to take about three to four hours for people who aren't Barry Allen to reach Central City. So Samantha has either been on the road or on the train for about three hours and still hasn't called Oliver. Neither has Barry, even though Barry has known about this for the same time period, since --

 

3. Samantha says that a Central City CSI, Barry Allen, told her to talk to Oliver.  That was at least three hours before Samantha arrived in Star City, and before Felicity tried to call Barry.

 

So unless Barry believes that the only kids in Central City who get kidnapped are Oliver Queen's, and even I don't think that little of Barry, yeah, either Oliver told Barry, Barry worked it out on his own, or, after William disappeared, Samantha told the Central City cops as part of the crime report process and Barry found out William's actual identity from them, but regardless, Barry didn't bother to call Oliver or Felicity.

[kismet]

There was no emotional payoff in the break-up, but that's not surprising considering all the plot holes and contrivances they had to put in place just to make the break-up happen. So in many way it was the perfect ending because they had her walking to really pack the emotional punch and it was a complete whiff.

[statsgirl]

I know that this is the tine of year when Oliver becomes afflicted with Plot Induced Stupidity but this tine it's worse than even last year:

 

Samantha tell Oliver he can't tell anyone about William -- Oliver tells no one.

 

Thea tells Oliver he did the right thing keeping the secret from Felicity -- Oliver stops wondering if he should tell Felicity.

 

Diggle tells Oliver he should keep William close to protect him -- Oliver decides to keep William closer.

 

Vixen tell Oliver he needs to send William away and not tell him who Oliver is until he's 18 -- Oliver sends William away,

 

It's like Oliver is so stupid, not only can he not think of things on his own, he just does what other people tell him to do.  All except the woman he's engaged to, he never talks to her.  No wonder she dumped his sorry ass.

[writersblock51]

This episode had Vixen in it and frankly, she was a big part of why I watched.  I knew there would be a break up, agreed with speculation that Felicity would walk at the end, and Laurel would be supportive of Samantha.  Really, not much in the way of surprises.

I'm disappointed and baffled that SA's favorite episodes are ones that I immediately delete off of my DVR. 

 

What I liked:

- Vixen/Mari - I liked the special effects well enough, my expectations firmly in the CW- budget range and not that of a major network.  I had enjoyed the animated series and was looking forward to seeing her on this.  I'd like to see her again on the other shows in this universe.  Heck, I'd love to see her on Supergirl and gets some of CBS's budget!

 

- Quentin - not a big part of the episode but nicely helpful and kind of funny.  As I think he's in the grave, I'll miss him

 

- Felicity pointing out, calmly, the sheer stupidity of Samantha's demands on Oliver.  Also loved that she stayed coolly professional when it was time to find the kid

 

- Thea calling Malcolm out on his horrible lies and remembering the father who raised her.  Robert was far from perfect but I think the show made a point of having it clear that Robert loved Thea very very much.  And if he knew he wasn't her biological father?  Even more wonderful that Thea was so beloved. 

 

- SA did a great job with the video scene.  As much as the entire kid arc annoys me, SA has done a good job with crappy material

 

- A few good stunts (Thea on the motorcycle, Oliver ably taking out multiple ghosts on his own in hand to hand combat)

 

- Damien - I love how NM is playing him.  Slade is still my favorite Arrow villain but DD is a very close 2nd

 

What I didn't like:

 

- the rushed 'miracle' at the end

 

- Diggle's advice to Oliver

 

- Oliver not apologizing to Felicity.  At all.  For anything. 

 

- The gaps that fans have to fill in themselves, like Mari and Laurel greeting each other like old friends.  When did they even meet?

 

- Absolutely everything to do with Samantha.  I hope she and her plot device son are never mentioned or shown again.

 

- the Baby Mama/Kid arc written in the first place, going back to S2.  The kid isn't Connor and isn't old enough to take over in the show's run.  This arc only served to break Oliver and Felicity up at the expense of Oliver's personal growth

 

- Oliver stuck in S1/S2 thinking that he will lie or omit telling his team key facts of what's happening in his life that put him (and them) in danger

 

- DD losing his power from a totem we haven't seen before (though the whole scene was cool).  What happened to the box he had?

 

- Barry not giving Oliver a heads up, regardless of what Samantha was doing

 

- the rushed break up and ending.  Makes me wonder if the episode was edited so that the scene was shortened and watered down once it became obvious (months ago) that the Baby Mama arc was already unpopular

 

- Felicity and Thea still haven't spoken any words together though Felicity have her an angry intense glare

 

 

Oliver has been trying to learn to open up to his team for a few years now.  What's holding him back?  Why isn't he learning the lessons from Seasons 2 and 3?

 

Count me in the camp that thinks this arc damaged Oliver - and I have no idea why the show continues to do this.  I'm not looking for a perfect hero but it's very frustrating to watch the lead/hero make the SAME mistakes again and again, rendering him more alone and miserable than before.

Edited February 25, 2016 by writersblock51

[Password]

After seeing people say they really liked Oliver's video to the kid I'm a little embarrassed to say I felt absolutely NOTHING during that scene. The kid still doesn't mean much to me. Seriously writing this is awful but really. I wasn't there for it, and felt disconnected.

[HighHopes]

After seeing people say they really liked Oliver's video to the kid I'm a little embarrassed to say I felt absolutely NOTHING during that scene. The kid still doesn't mean much to me. Seriously writing this is awful but really. I wasn't there for it, and felt disconnected.

I too felt nothing during that video/speech. I was actually texting my friend at the time about how awful it was. Oliver's tears do nothing for me anymore, I felt zero emotional connection to Oliver and this kid storyline.

Edited February 25, 2016 by HighHopes

[La Dee Da]

I feel a bit like I did when the highly telegraphed Ray-Felicity holding pattern materialized in 3.15 - thank God it's started so I can look forward to it being over.

While 4.15 wasn't super horrible, it doesn't have any immediate meaning or resonance to me. The characters will put the kid behind them until he's plot-relevant. We knew the break up was inevitable. At best, there is some place setting for the rest of the season - Oliver and Malcolm arguably both lost everyone or thing important to them, and the lead up to the finale will be about how they react differently to that loss and trying to win them back (poor Thea!).

I don't mind that the break-up scene was so short - I thought there were good moments of insight into Felicity's mindset at other points. For example, when she raised Oliver's charm as a factor in changing Samantha's mind, it was clear she was worried that would or had happened to her.

Oliver came across as resigned in the break up.

He knew it was coming and just shut down.

At some point the switch will flip from brooding to action. I am curious what he'll do to address her very valid concerns and become better partnership material. It will take more than lounging around shirtlessly while journaling this time!

On other stuff from the episode, the show's sense of time defies even super show logic - Felicity went from learning about the chip, having spinal surgery, beginning rehab and walking in 48 hours? Also, I'm very curious what's going to happen with DD now that he's presumably de powered in police custody - they have enough info to hold him - assaults, kidnapping, importing exotic artifacts, growing agricultural products in city limits without permits...

[SleepDeprived]

After seeing people say they really liked Oliver's video to the kid I'm a little embarrassed to say I felt absolutely NOTHING during that scene. The kid still doesn't mean much to me. Seriously writing this is awful but really. I wasn't there for it, and felt disconnected.

 

I'll join you guys in that corner since I, too, felt nothing during Oliver's video monologue to William other than to think 'huh, so the Arrow writers do know the difference between a sperm donor and what being an actual father to a kid means.' Not even SA's sad panda face could make me connect to what he was feeling for the kid. I just totally checked out of this BM storyline, I guess. Also, since I'm admitting to having a cold dead heart, that child actor is terrible, sorrynot sorry to say. Him being somewhat serviceable at the acting thing and coming across as a possibly adorable kid or even just someone I could actually see as a real live boy, and not a plot device with bad line readings, would've been something that could've gotten me to go soft on this whole BS story but no, I couldn't have that either.

Edited February 25, 2016 by SleepDeprived

[bijoux]

Honestly, it was better than expected in some aspects. Namely:

 

• Thea's finally done with Malcolm and acknowldges Robert as her father. Praise Jesus. Oliver also points out that he's only poor dumb William's biological father.
• Felicity is allowed to be hurt and to express it.
• Darhk is darkly entertaining.
• Laurel's scene with Lance at the precinct is KC's best one on the show hands down, no throwing shade here. Very good work.

 

 

 

[Xenith22]

Also can I please point out how STUPID Oliver is being with his instructions to BM not to tell him where they are going.  Just because HE doesn't know doesn't mean that nobody else could find them.  There was no talk of changing names or dropping off the grid.  Nope, they were just moving.  I could probably find them with a Google Search. Again, if Thea was able to put two and two together about who William was, so could anyone else that digs into Oliver's background.

Well, given that Oliver still had to get that video to Samantha before she left or else still had a way to contact her, I'm now choosing to believe that Felicity will indeed help them set up new identities...maybe something like Sandra and Connor Hawke?

 

Why couldn't he back out of backing out?  He was being extorted.  Quentin could back him up without revealing any facts about William being his son or even handing out names.

This.  He stated that he suspended his campaign, which means that legally there is nothing to stop him from immediately resuming it.  Actual politicians have re-entered races after interrupting/suspending their campaign for various reasons.  (Remember Ross Perrot for example?)

 

I'm confused. What was that welcome Laurel gave Mari?

Yeah Laurel definitely did not appear in the animated series and Vixen was not in any webcomics...so that probably means 1 of 2 things:

a) A second season of Vixen animated is planned which will include their meeting in the past.

b) A flashback is planned to address this meeting in the show...maybe in order to avoid running out of the 5 years of island time next season will feature flashbacks about the year Laurel spent in Detroit?

 

On a different note Samantha took the Green Arrow reveal really well.  I would have thought her first reaction would have been anger in thinking that is why her son was kidnapped...and she would not have been wrong because Malcolm.

 

Also worth noting that we have probably ruled out Samantha and William for being in the grave now....so my worry for Diggle's continued safety continues to grow.   Logically it's probably just down to either Quentin or Diggle as the prime candidates at this point.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Xenith22

[bijoux]

Was there anything in the episode that at all indicated Oliver has seen William and gone to CC since the crossover? Because I sure didn't pick up on it.

 

You know, I really do wonder if Felicity repressing everything is a direct response to the fact that audiences didn't like when she cried last season. So cool and collected and polite hurt is all she's allowed now.

 

She did get to throw in some snarky remarks that I thoroughly enjoyed. The list of people who didn't know about William would be shorter was a thing of beauty. Although it was also painful because I imagined her going 1. me, 2... in her head.

 

My casual watcher did not care for the insta-walk thing, called it "too contrived".

I didn't either. It felt cheap.

 

LOL I'm not over how unsatisfying that break-up was. It was just so meh. Not gut-wrenching or anything. Oliver just sat there like he was waiting for someone to bring him breakfast. Haha. 

Just him standing up when she did would have made it better for me.

 

I didn't like Laurel comforting her old friend Samantha. It made me super uncomfortable, even though I predicted that exact thing would happen. It gives me shades of s1 when they tried to make her out to be this saint who does nothing wrong.

 

 

I'm so confused by Thea and her relationship with Malcolm and how she views parents. She calls Robert, the man who raised her, by his first name now, even though he was in her life for what - 14 years? And Malcolm has only been in her life for 2 years and he's done the worst things imaginable and she calls him dad? WTF. 

 

I found Laurel comforting Samantha hilarious. Here are the things I have no issue with: 1. Laurel placing more blame on Oliver, who was the one in a relationship with her. 2. Her telling Samantha that finding her kid was more important at the time. Things I have issue with: Laurel completely absolving her, when we find out they were actually friends. Oh my God. That and people who knew about William coming out was like Comedy Central.

 

As for the other thing, Thea was 12 when The Gambit went down.

 

[bijoux]

Oliver lost his candidacy? For sure? If yes, cool I called that.

 

He suspended it, but I still found it funny that it came after Felicity pointed out that doing the same thing over and over was the definition of insanity, and then Oliver himself reflected on how he's had previous experience on Darhk not honoring deals. I would have been more fine with it if he had thrown in that he had to try regardless.

 

- DD losing his power from a totem we haven't seen before (though the whole scene was cool).  What happened to the box he had?

 

- Felicity and Thea still haven't spoken any words together though Felicity have her an angry intense glare

 

We saw the totem sometime at the beginning of the season. He used to keep it in his commode, the same one which Oliver opened in 4x10 to find Anaky had beaten him to the punch.

 

I very much enjoyed that look Felicity cast at Thea. 

[kes0704]

Well, that was quite the episode of Arrow. There were some great laugh-out-loud moments, none of them intentionally written that way, I'm sure, but damn funny all the same. The island flashbacks, in particular, have gone from snooze worthy to giggle worthy, so I guess that can be counted as a positive for the episode.

What else? Hmmm, unlike DD, Oliver's "heartfelt" message to his son did not melt my stone cold heart. I've never cared for this plot point so I wasn't invested in how he would feel. My only goal was to get through it so we could move on. I'm just glad that unless we have a time jump or the show runs for 8 more years we probably won't have to see Samantha or William ever again. Another positive for the episode!

I'm disappointed that Felicity's POV on Oliver's lying was reduced to a few snarky comments here and there and a brief moment at the end of the episode that was interrupted by her inexplicably sudden ability to WALK. How sad for EBR that what could have been a character defining paralysis storyline, something that she took the time to learn about, came to such a hasty and ill-conceived end.

And once again Oliver just watched her leave without saying anything. I don't think he even offered up a real apology at any point during the episode. He may have, but I might have been laughing and missed it, so I can't say for certain.

I'm really hoping that the end of this episode means we've finally hit rock bottom and we can start to rebuild towards better plots. If not, I'm really concerned about what comes next because the cast deserves so much better than this.

[Password]

And once again Oliver just watched her leave without saying anything. I don't think he even offered up a real apology at any point during the episode. He may have, but I might have been laughing and missed it, so I can't say for certain.

I reckon it's because he doesn't think what he did was wrong. Certainly the show is playing up the "he had no choice" angle.

It's to be expected because we're meant to swallow that he really really WEEELY wanted to tell her.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When did Arrow turn into a comedy? I laughed so many times during this episode! When Samantha apologized to Laurel for sleeping with Oliver a decade ago and she said, "I should have been honest with you," Laurel's response, "No, Oliver should have been," elicited a Kelso worthy "Ooh, BURN!!" from me. Quentin talking about an army of little Olivers was hilarious, as was most of what Damian said.

 

I was rolling my eyes/cracking up that once Oliver knew William had been kidnapped, he was like cool, there was a clause in my agreement with Samantha that said in the event that our kid was ever kidnapped, I would have permission to tell anyone and everyone that I'm his father so let's just start telling every person who crosses my path.

 

I liked Vixen quite a bit, but why did Oliver go all the way to Detroit and back to get her? And how does Laurel know her?

I was wondering if Detroit suddenly had no more phones. I wondered the same thing when Samantha didn't bother to tell Oliver that William had been missing for two whole days. When time is of the essence, they have these magical things called phones. And the internet which allows you to send messages in real time. But no, you go right ahead and travel all the way to Detroit to see if Vixen is available, Oliver. It's a good thing she wasn't on vacation or out of town when he got there.

Edited February 25, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Genki]

I feel a bit like I did when the highly telegraphed Ray-Felicity holding pattern materialized in 3.15 - thank God it's started so I can look forward to it being over.

 

 

This is how I felt about the episode as well, as a whole I didn't mind it, because we can finally get past all the BMD drama that has been hanging over our head since 4.08. 8 damn episodes can we please progress now!?

 

I think it was pretty clear that that Oliver deserved Felicity's hurt and disappointment, and the fact that he didn't fight or argue with her, basically told me he was resigned to her dumping him & shows that Oliver knows he was in the wrong. Of course I think the big dumb lump didn't realise it was going to be for excluding Felicity and not being a team-mate with her. I didn't mind that the break-up was an underlying current running throughout the episode, and EBR sold all her scenes so well, it was really good work from her.

 

I'm hopeful going forward, they will now show Oliver making efforts to change his behaviour, because this is really the first time he has felt the true consequences of it. From the LOA story-line, giving up being The Arrow, deciding to run for Mayor, even deciding to be in a relationship for real, Oliver has experienced nothing but support from Felicity. She has enabled high-handedness, I understand where Oliver comes from, because it has helped him survive for so long, (I love getting my own way and I like to think I'm always right, but I learn more when others get a chance and show me something different, even if it's not what I would prefer initially) so I'm hoping that he will try to change moving forward. Also a truly heartfelt apology to Felicity would be nice.

 

Surprisingly, I am also willing wave away the cheesiness Felicity walking out on Oliver for the following reason:

 

Even though the story was rushed, and was awful and ultimately pointless, Felicity's paralysis showcased Olicity positively and at their strongest a lot, (reaffirming commitment, promises to hunt for a cure, while realistically facing what the future meant, etc). Basically they faced this huge setback as a true and great partnership, so a moment which should have been a victory and a celebration for them, is ruined because Oliver has never truly learned what truly being in a relationship means. He knows how to support, but he doesn't know how to truly lean on someone and be venerable and trust that his partner will be there to carry/catch/support him.

 

I'm pleasantly surprised the show gave this as the context of the break-up and I like that disappointment and hurt was what was expressed by Felicity, because I think that they will hit Oliver hard during the coming episodes. I am however sad for Felicity because she missed out on a victory and truly celebrating a win.

 

I wish they hadn't come up with this contrived plot in the first place, but since it' happened I'm OK with how the break-up played out.

 

BM was awful in the contrived way the show wrote her in (but could we expect anything less), I'm happy she and Spawn have basically been sent to Off-screenville. SA really sold the farewell scene and the Police station scene, because up until then, I had not connection to Oliver's feeling for Spawn. I'm definitely glad he is gone, If they make Conner Hawke Oliver's Grandson, I will forgive the Plottiness a little bit more (but only a tiny bit). If they allow for Oliver to truly make some progress, I will hand-wave the them basically telling BM everything (not really, that was truly eye-rolling). 

 

I'm a little disappointed in Diggle for not saying something about how Oliver should have let Felicity in,  but I think Diggle was giving Oliver a pass Oliver not telling him specifically about the Spawn, in their scene, but some support for Felicity would have been nice. 

 

Vixen was OK, some line deliver was bad, but not terrible, most of her power CGI work for me. (Shame some the other other CGI was so bad).

 

Overall the episode made some progress and now on the fence on whether Malcolm will be the S4 or S5 villain.

 

I very much enjoyed that look Felicity cast at Thea. 

 

 

Me too @Bijoux, me too.

[apinknightmare]

But I do get that he should have at least talked to her about what he was going to do first.

That was her point, though, and why she mentioned inclusion and leaning on your partner, and being worried that his natural inclination is to keep secrets when things get hairy. All these huge things are happening in Oliver's life, and he's struggling, and repeatedly keeps them from her.

[cambridgeguy]

 

I very much enjoyed that look Felicity cast at Thea.

Understandable in the moment, but once she has time to distance herself from it she'll realize that Thea and Barry don't deserve any crap for keeping quiet.  It was Oliver's secret, not theirs, and they had no obligation to tell Felicity when Oliver himself refused. 

 

Oliver could have told Felicity that he had a son and explained the situation while withholding names and making Felicity promise not to do any digging.  Felicity has a tendency to push (this is how she found out from Barry the first time) but I think she would have stopped herself if asked to.    

 

Of course, the last time Felicity found out and dumped Oliver everyone except for Barry died and they took most of Central City with it.  The fallout can't possibly be worse this time around.

[kes0704]

I was wondering if Detroit suddenly had no more phones. I wondered the same thing when Samantha didn't bother to tell Oliver that William had been missing for two whole days. When time is of the essence, they have these magical things called phones. And the internet which allows you to send messages in real time. But no, you go right ahead and travel all the way to Detroit to see if Vixen is available, Oliver. It's a good thing she wasn't on vacation or out of town when he got there.

I may not be remembering this correctly but when introducing Vixen to the rest of the team I think Oliver said that Vixen had spoken to Felicity on the phone.

It confused me because if Felicity spoke to Vixen earlier on the phone why did Oliver need to go to Detroit personally and tell her that he needed help? A speaker phone could have saved him a trip. Maybe Felicity's phone call was just to find out what warehouse Vixen would be fighting bad guys in so Oliver would know where to find her.

Edited February 25, 2016 by kes0704

[bijoux]

That was her point, though, and why she mentioned inclusion and leaning on your partner, and being worried that his natural inclination is to keep secrets when things get hairy. All these huge things are happening in Oliver's life, and he's struggling, and repeatedly keeps them from her.

 

There is a very good point I've seen raised on Tumblr and it's that Felicity is letting Oliver in and she's not feeling he's reciprocating. At the beginning of this episode she told him about wanting to be able to walk down the isle and you could tell she felt she was being silly, like in the grand scheme of things does it matter if she walks in time for their wedding or some time after? But she feels safe enough with Oliver to let him see what she perceives as weakness or silliness. Right now, it doesn't seem he feels he can allow himself the same liberty.

 

On an unrelated note, what the hell was that animated line? I get it was referencing the animated series, but this is supposedly amidst a crisis where a child is missing and Oliver's all apple cheeked and smiley while cracking wise. Way to ratched up the tension. Is Darhk a novice kidnapper? There was not a single threat of what would happen to William if Oliver didn't play along. Renounce your candidacy! Or what? ...I'll take away his crayons!

I may not be remembering this correctly but when introducing Vixen to the rest of the team I think Oliver said that Vixen had spoken to Felicity on the phone.

It confused me because if Felicity spoke to Vixen earlier on the phone why did Oliver need to go to Detroit personally and tell her that he needed help? A speaker phone could have saved him a trip. Maybe Felicity's phone call was just to find out what warehouse Vixen would be fighting bad guys in so Oliver would know where to find her.

I think it was a reference to the animated series, not this episode.

Edited February 25, 2016 by bijoux

[tangerine95]

That wasn't as bad as I was expecting tbh.I mean its one of the worst episodes of arrow for me but they BM drama was solved as well as it could have been for how dumb it was.

Honestly what I cared about the most was that this episode ends with BM and the kid gone for good.That goodbye was pretty final,I don't think we'll be seeing them anytime soon if ever again.And its for the best.The few short scenes the kid(who sorry but he was a terrible child actor) had were enough to show how badly a kid would fit on this show and how much dad Oliver to a random kid is a bad idea.Samantha continued to be a plot device that has no consistent character traits but at least they had her admit she was the one making the lie to everyone demand so that was slightly better.

The break up scene was pretty underwhelming for all the build up.But it was needed and Felicity had a valid point.She understood but still didn't accept that Oliver had to lie and in earlier scenes she actually got to call out some of the dumb aspects of the lie.Like everyone knowing before she did and the lie not working to protect the kid in the end.I thought it was so sad in that scene when the team walks in and she says DD has a 10 year old and doesn't reveal its Oliver's son.Proves that she would have kept that secret from anyone if he told her.

I think she could have used a scene of talking about it to someone else in this episode.I think its coming in the next few but probably with Donna or Curtis tbh and I was hoping it would be Digg.Also her waking away suddenly was pretty corny and not what I would have done but I'm so glad she's walking again though so I'll ignore that lol.

I needed less resignation from Oliver in the scene but did kinda just lose everything he was trying to keep with the lie so hopefully he works to regain her trust and prove that he is ready for the kind of realtionship she wants and he promised her.

Edited February 25, 2016 by tangerine95

[looptab]

I'm confused. What was that welcome Laurel gave Mari?

Were BC and Vixen BFFs in comics? Was that an Easter egg?

 

That was the definition of fanservice. Done solely for Laurel Lance fans, unless they'll show the two of them meeting in Vixen s2.

 

I just can't decide if this is consistent with how Oliver has been written his season or if they wrote him out of character particularly for this plot to work.

 

No, I don't think it's consistent at all. They have been showing all season the two of them communicating and consulting and confiding in each other about things. I'd say Felicity doesn't consult Oliver more than he doesn't consult her. Except for this.

 

So, is Felicity a super-ninja, now? How could she have entered the loft with Oliver not noticing? You live in an open-space, FFS! That "How much did you hear" really bothered me, because it came off as him still witholding things from her - which she rightfully dumped him for - but also kinda implied that she was eavesdropping on him. 

 

The break-up was okay until Felicity decided to quit talking and just go for a walk instead. WTF? It felt as she didn't conclude whatever she was going to say. And the moment she was able to walk again was ridiculous, when it could have been poignant if done at some other time. I do like the interpretation Genki gave, though, of it sort of being a bleak "the irony" moment wrt to their relationship. But it came off as just laughable.

 

Turns out Laurel ended up embracing both BM and Vixen. I did like her scenes about her reaction, though. I also liked that Thea was embarrassed and kinda feeling guilty that she knew about the kid. Also, YAY for remembering Robert, Thea!

Count me in with those not giving a flying f@#k about Oliver's video-message. SA did a good job, but at that point I was so fed-up and waiting for the break-up to happen that I couldn't bring myself to care. As others said, it was all pretty emotionless to me.

 

Thank God this story it's over.

[dtissagirl]

Even though the story was rushed, and was awful and ultimately pointless, Felicity's paralysis showcased Olicity positively and at their strongest a lot, (reaffirming commitment, promises to hunt for a cure, while realistically facing what the future meant, etc). Basically they faced this huge setback as a true and great partnership, so a moment which should have been a victory and a celebration for them, is ruined because Oliver has never truly learned what truly being in a relationship means.

 

This is a really great point you make.

 

If we pretend all things are equal, and Felicity's injury and Oliver's seekrit kid were their biggest individual struggles while being a couple planning on getting married, then what we had going on here was Oliver being a legit A+ supportive partner to Felicity during her struggle... and Felicity being completely unable to support Oliver in anyway during his, because he withheld it from her.

 

And it really does highlight the cycle of self-sabotaging Oliver lives in: he didn't allow Felicity to support him, and then when she inevitably left him because she felt excluded, he accepted it -- hell, he probably expected it.

 

I do hope that the fact that he really did lost everything -- Felicity, demon spawn, election -- means this is the ULTIMATE FINAL rock bottom that jumpstarts his brain into breaking the cycle.

[Chaser]

It occurs to me that EBR being so apologetic about the paralysis storyline is probably in relation to the corny walkout at the end.

[apinknightmare]

I honestly don't know how she or SA got through that without dying laughing.

[Genki]

It occurs to me that EBR being so apologetic about the paralysis storyline is probably in relation to the corny walkout at the end.

 

It would have been more meaningful or powerful, if Felicity stumbled or faltered and Oliver got up to help and she rejected his support....

[kes0704]

I wonder what the cast reaction was when they got the script for the episode and saw the direction "Felicity suddenly feels movement in her legs, gets up out of her wheelchair and leaves". That had to have been a huge WTF moment.

Before the episode aired I thought Felicity regaining the ability to walk may have been part of the montage over Oliver's monologue. Using it to act as a parallel in that we saw her try and fail to walk with Oliver by her side at the start of the episode, and by episodes end we see her try and succeed but this time without Oliver by her side, reflecting the breakdown of their relationship.

I would have found something like that far more poignant than the sudden rise and walk away that we ended up with.

[apinknightmare]

Before the episode aired I thought Felicity regaining the ability to walk may have been part of the montage over Oliver's monologue. Using it to act as a parallel in that we saw her try and fail to walk with Oliver by her side at the start of the episode, and by episodes end we see her try and succeed but this time without Oliver by her side, reflecting the breakdown of their relationship.

I would have found something like that far more poignant than the sudden rise and walk away that we ended up with.

I agree. They basically took all of the emotional impact out of the breakup and the poignancy of her walking again by combining the two. The waking felt less like a triumph and more like a laughable WTF!?, and the breakup was meh, because she never really finished saying this very important thing that Oliver needed to hear.

[verbalme]

I did tear up a bit when Felicity gave her "Marriage is about inclusion" speech. And when Oliver said his stuff in the video, even if it was quite predictable and for plot. The rest was quite meh.

Although, and I'm not sure if this was already answered, but did I miss something - If Oliver didn't know where they were going, how did he pass the tape to Samantha for safekeeping, for when William turns 18? Or is this one of those "I'll keep it in a vault" thingys?

Lazy writing.

And for the flashbacks, with all the stuff happening, I'm expecting Dharma Initiative and polar bears to show up soon.

Edited February 25, 2016 by verbalme

[looptab]

The flashbacks actually made me happy for the first time, because I didn't pay attention to the credits so I was surprised when Conklin showed up, even if the scene itself was ridiculous. :)

[Chaser]

After 4x08 aired, MG talked about Oliver regressing. Regression is generally a bad thing in characters, MG was even treating it as such. So I don't get why they then write an episode that puts Oliver in the right. Diggle and Thea backing him (I'm leaving Laurel out of it because she didn't voice an opinion on his current behavior) when it made no sense. 

 

I honestly think they over corrected. After so many people called out the stupidity of Oliver's actions, they bent over backwards to give him a support system. In doing so they took away one for Felicity.

 

It didn't need to be done either. Diggle could have said that he understand but Felicity still should have been brought in. Or at least expressed sympathy to Felicity. I would have taken a hand on the shoulder. Just Something.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Chaser

[KirkB]

When I spare a moment to think about the flashbacks it occurs to me the people who were using it as a prison (back before it turned out there were tons and tons of non imprisoned people just over the next hill) might have made a bad choice, what with all the magic doodads and demons. What if one of their prisoners ended up with super powers or something?

[Primetimer]

A superheroine from a webseries crossover tries her hand at fighting Damien Darhk.

Read the story

[nksarmi]

After 4x08 aired, MG talked about Oliver regressing. Regression is generally a bad thing in characters, MG was even treating it as such. So I don't get why they then write an episode that puts Oliver in the right. Diggle and Thea backing him (I'm leaving Laurel out of it because she didn't voice an opinion on his current behavior) when it made no sense. 

 

I honestly think they over corrected. After so many people called out the stupidity of Oliver's actions, they bent over backwards to give him a support system. In doing so they took away one for Felicity.

 

It didn't need to be done either. Diggle could have said that he understand but Felicity still should have been brought in. Or at least expressed sympathy to Felicity. I would have taken a hand on the shoulder. Just Something.

 

I'm trying to pretend that Diggle was only saying it was ok that Oliver didn't tell him. But it would have been nice if Diggle had - at some point - said, "I get why you didn't tell me, but keeping something like this from Felicity is not going to lead to marital bliss.  You know she would have kept your secret. What were you worried about?"

[apinknightmare]

Although, and I'm not sure if this was already answered, but did I miss something - If Oliver didn't know where they were going, how did he pass the tape to Samantha for safekeeping, for when William turns 18?

I'm guessing he emailed a file to Samantha UNENCRYPTED like the dolt he is to her email address, which is probably thegreenarrowismysonsfather@gmail.com

Edited February 25, 2016 by apinknightmare

[lexicon]

I just have to say the snark on this is unparalleled and you guys are the reason I'm making it through the level of dumb that Arrow is producing right now. Well y'all and my hope that LL is in the grave but mostly you guys because lbr "BECAUSE COMICS" has gotten her so far I'm scared to hope for any kind of divine or EP intervention now.