S04.E15: Taken

[looptab]

That the kid would end up requesting a Green Arrow action figure was as sure as the break up. Even more so, haha.

[ComicFan777]

Did Oliver ever apologize to Felicity?  because I think I missed it if he did and definitely don't want to re-watch.  I think he apologized to everyone else though...if he didn't apologize to her specifically - why didn't he?

[NumberCruncher]

Did Oliver ever apologize to Felicity?  because I think I missed it if he did and definitely don't want to re-watch.  I think he apologized to everyone else though...if he didn't apologize to her specifically - why didn't he?

Nope, because in the grand tradition of this show, they have him apologize to everyone except whom he should apologize to. I think they were really going out of their way so as to not make Oliver look any more accountable than he already was. After all, they can't make him look like the bad guy in the situation...or something.

[bijoux]

Hey, how old was Akio supposed to be? If around the spawn's age, I'm going to laugh forever. Akio was teaching Oliver Mandarin (a second language to Akio as well) and helping him escape Waller. Spawn was playing with dollies and had no clue that a one-handed man grabbing him from his bedroom and handing him to another guy is...not a good thing.

 

I always assumed he was. Akio was a nice kid, but man, he would have eaten William alive if they ever crossed paths. He'd have scammed him for his last action figure.

[AyChihuahua]

I always assumed he was. Akio was a nice kid, but man, he would have eaten William alive if they ever crossed paths. He'd have scammed him for his last action figure.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH!

 

Akio spoke THREE LANGUAGES! Spawn plays with dollies!!!!!!!

 

OMG I'm dying! That Queen DNA is SERIOUSLY damaged!

Did Oliver ever apologize to Felicity?  because I think I missed it if he did and definitely don't want to re-watch.  I think he apologized to everyone else though...if he didn't apologize to her specifically - why didn't he?

Being serious for a sec, although I'm still TOTALLY DYING at how stupid Oliver's kid is, it's that kind of thing, not introducing her to BM as his fiancée, not being there for her when her dad showed up (I know Thea was ill, but he slept at the loft with Felicity so had time to be more supportive), confiding in Thea and Digg and Vixen but not Felicity, and looking so unconcerned when she broke up with him that makes me really question how in love with her he is this season, when I NEVER questioned it in S3. I don't think it's intentional, but I'm not enjoying it, at all.

[bijoux]

I didn't even think about Akio until you brought it up, but the writers managed to write a child character for almost the entire season once upon a time, what happened that they wrote William as if he was 4 for two minutes air time tops? Jesus. He still could have had the Flash figure, only it could have been displayed somehere and Oliver could have noticed it. And he at least could have been cognizant of being abducted! I don't need any heroics, just effing awareness that something is amiss.

[NumberCruncher]

I don't have a problem with William being into action figures. Heck, there are plenty of grown adults who play with them. That said, it is rather interesting that Akio ended up getting way more development than William, but I'm certainly not crying about it since I wish the kid never existed in the first place.

[ComicFan777]

Since Oliver made the decision to send William away, do you think that Oliver also sees this as applying to his and Felicity's relationship - that he decided no kids for them, too, without having the kid talk with Felicity?...because of the dangerous life they lead.

Edited February 26, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Password]

Because I love torturing myself I rewatched the scene where Felicity confronts Oliver over the secret and the scene where she ends their engagement.

I cannot get over how Oliver can look this woman in the eye and continue defending this crap. I fumed during the first scene because he has not a shred of remorse. He honestly thinks he did what was best and I'm left speechless.

[tv echo]

As regards whether Oliver had also decided that he and Felicity can't have kids, I agree with Laurel Hurley's assessment of Oliver's thinking in response to a similar question:

Honestly, I don’t think Oliver was thinking that far ahead. Imagine the plot of 4x15 like a tree: Oliver was too focused on the trunk to think about any of the branches. His thinking was very linear. William was kidnapped –> must get William back –> got William back –> William is still in danger –> ship William to Fiji.

Edited February 26, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

I can't believe that the kids factor has been brought up so often this season, yet they never had a discussion about it. Unless they are saving it for later?

[apinknightmare]

I'm guessing that the EPs aren't ever planning on them having kids, so I won't be surprised if that's a discussion they never have.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't have a problem with William being into action figures. Heck, there are plenty of grown adults who play with them. That said, it is rather interesting that Akio ended up getting way more development than William, but I'm certainly not crying about it since I wish the kid never existed in the first place.

It's not really being into to action figures that's a problem. Lots of adults have them. Maybe more displayed than actively played with, but that's really not the issue. It's that he was playing with them, and that's pretty much all he was shown doing, in terms of kid behavior. (Was he also coloring in the pic/gif DD showed them?) 10-year-olds play video games and hang with their friends much more than they actively play, mostly alone, with action figures.

 

Also, typical 4-year-olds would be aware that a one-handed man grabbing them from their bedroom and handing them to another man is NOT A GOOD THING. Much less a 9/10-year-old.

Edited February 26, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[ComicFan777]

I figured that at the very end of the show, Oliver and Felicity would have a kid because they always talk about how Oliver is like Diggle, but a few years off.  I figured their end goal would be for Oliver to balance a family and kids and superheroing.

Edited February 26, 2016 by ComicFan777

[AyChihuahua]

Because I love torturing myself I rewatched the scene where Felicity confronts Oliver over the secret and the scene where she ends their engagement.

I cannot get over how Oliver can look this woman in the eye and continue defending this crap. I fumed during the first scene because he has not a shred of remorse. He honestly thinks he did what was best and I'm left speechless.

It's really going to ruin him for me permanently if they continue with the idea that he did nothing wrong and Felicity just needs to get over it, and accept that he'll lie to her about huge stuff once a year or so. I don't think they're doing that. I THINK they're going to focus on the partner thing rather than no more lying, bc I think they realized that the lying made him REALLY unlikeable, so they can't have him admit that he specifically did that. If they frame it as him learning to be a good partner, which will include no more lying without anyone specifically saying that, they get him to basically the same [better] place without having to admit how shitty that was.

[dtissagirl]

I think Oliver had a recurring case of Because Of The Life That I Lead. Back then he couldn't be in a all-in loving relationship because of the life that he leads, now he can't be a parent because of the life that he leads. And exactly as back then, Oliver isn't thinking ahead at all.

 

The implication to Felicity here is, Oliver has just decided he cannot be a parent, without talking to her about it.

[looptab]

Yeah, I don't think they intend for them to having kids, but, bringing it up so much and never really dig in seems like a missed opportunity. Like, I was sure they'd discuss it at some point after Donna's comments on him being a wonderful father one day. But, I guess that was just in reference to this horrible kid plot. Which, FAIL, because what do I even care that Oliver is father to this kid that has disappeared as soon as he appeared? I'll feel sorry for Oliver for a bit, and then forget about it - just like I'm sure the show will. OTOH, having the two main characters even just talking about that would be meaningful - I don't need to see Olicity babies. Until the last episode of the series :)

[tarotx]

10 years olds do play with action figures. My son is nine and he and his friends play destroy the bedroom with theirs :p Many 10 years old aren't allowed to pay video games. Most of them do sports though but William did have a ball cap so maybe. Perhaps William loves to create stories using his actions figures. We really can't even make assumptions based on how little we have seen of the boy. He was a plot device. And some kids are younger than their age that has nothing to do with smarts. Like kids with ADD or really gentle souls can be overprotective by their mamas.

[dtissagirl]

Remember when we thought Felicity being in a wheelchair would tie in to the kids talk, because her situation might've made it oh so much harder? Hahaha we were so dumb.

[Password]

Remember when we thought Felicity being in a wheelchair would tie in to the kids talk, because her situation might've made it oh so much harder? Hahaha we were so dumb.

Bahahahaha so so dumb.

[looptab]

Like, everything that we knew would happen, we thought it could tie to it. The neighbor being in Star City. The proposal. Felicity's father. LOL

[AyChihuahua]

10 years olds do play with action figures. My son is nine and he and his friends play destroy the bedroom with theirs :p Many 10 years old aren't allowed to pay video games. Most of them do sports though but William did have a ball cap so maybe. Perhaps William loves to create stories using his actions figures. We really can't even make assumptions based on how little we have seen of the boy. He was a plot device. And some kids are younger than their age that has nothing to do with smarts. Like kids with ADD or really gentle souls can be overprotective by their mamas.

Yes, he AND HIS FRIENDS play destroy the bedroom with theirs. Not he sits alone in his bedroom making "schwoom" sounds with one.

 

Kid's a moron.

[JenMD]

I cannot get over how Oliver can look this woman in the eye and continue defending this crap. I fumed during the first scene because he has not a shred of remorse. He honestly thinks he did what was best and I'm left speechless.

I knew as soon as I saw Marc Guggenheim answer an Ask on his Tumblr defending Oliver with (paraphrasing), "As a father, I'd do anything to see my child" and that he didn't have a problem with Oliver going to Central City or lying about it, that that would translate to Oliver not being in the wrong, and they'd minimize it as much as they could.  One the one hand, it really annoys me how much of the story MG gives away ahead of time, just in general.  But on the other, at times I appreciate the head's up so I can brace myself.  And at this point, I can't even be mad at the characters because my disappointment and anger at the behind-the-scenes people making such a mess of things takes me right out of the story.

[tv echo]

I'm sure Tara Butters appreciates having a husband who would lie to her for no reason.  And I say "for no reason" because Oliver could've told Felicity without jeopardizing his chance to see his son.  He'd simply be lying to Samantha instead of lying to Felicity.

Edited February 26, 2016 by tv echo

[ComicFan777]

I knew as soon as I saw Marc Guggenheim answer an Ask on his Tumblr defending Oliver with (paraphrasing), "As a father, I'd do anything to see my child" and that he didn't have a problem with Oliver going to Central City or lying about it, that that would translate to Oliver not being in the wrong, and they'd minimize it as much as they could.  One the one hand, it really annoys me how much of the story MG gives away ahead of time, just in general.  But on the other, at times I appreciate the head's up so I can brace myself.  And at this point, I can't even be mad at the characters because my disappointment and anger at the behind-the-scenes people making such a mess of things takes me right out of the story.

 

I would be curious (only a little bit, or maybe just amused...) about what MG's wife would say about the situation - are they on the same page about this?  would she be ok if he was lying to her face and going to a different city to see his secret kid? 

[dtissagirl]

Like, everything that we knew would happen, we thought it could tie to it. The neighbor being in Star City. The proposal. Felicity's father. LOL

All of our spec involved all of these huge life-changing events happening to a couple in a committed relationship would prompt O/F to have fully realized conversations, lord, we were so stupid.

[bijoux]

I knew as soon as I saw Marc Guggenheim answer an Ask on his Tumblr defending Oliver with (paraphrasing), "As a father, I'd do anything to see my child" and that he didn't have a problem with Oliver going to Central City or lying about it, that that would translate to Oliver not being in the wrong, and they'd minimize it as much as they could.  One the one hand, it really annoys me how much of the story MG gives away ahead of time, just in general.  But on the other, at times I appreciate the head's up so I can brace myself.  And at this point, I can't even be mad at the characters because my disappointment and anger at the behind-the-scenes people making such a mess of things takes me right out of the story.

 

This episode really muddied the waters on the issue of Oliver going back to CC. Because he specifically told Felicity he didn't want a relationship with William if she didn't have the chance of having a relationship with the kid. That does not sound like treks to CC. Or was it meant to be that he didn't want a father/son relationship and was going with mommy's friend until he got the clear to tell Felicity? I honestly don't get it.

[Password]

I think it was meant to show us that he wanted Felicity part of William's but because reasons...

[apinknightmare]

He meant that he wanted Samantha to trust him enough to allow William to be a part of his and Felicity's lives in Star City at some point.

[JenMD]

This episode really muddied the waters on the issue of Oliver going back to CC. Because he specifically told Felicity he didn't want a relationship with William if she didn't have the chance of having a relationship with the kid. That does not sound like treks to CC. Or was it meant to be that he didn't want a father/son relationship and was going with mommy's friend until he got the clear to tell Felicity? I honestly don't get it.

I honestly don't remember the scene well enough and haven't rewatched yet.  But I wonder, if has been speculated, that they were trying to downplay things as much as they could so didn't go into his "back and forth" to Central City that was mentioned only (?) once.  They had Oliver give out as little information as possible on everything that went down.  We have no idea how much the team actually knows.  I kind of think the writers think if they don't bring stuff up we'll forget about it.

[ComicFan777]

I really wonder what he was thinking or maybe when he was thinking of telling Felicity...let's wait to tell Felicity out of the blue after he was able to convince Samantha that it was ok to tell Felicity...months if not years after he has known and lied to her face.  Most likely after they were married since he wanted to move up the wedding date...not sure how well he thought she was going to take it then.  Again, Oliver...not so bright.

[AyChihuahua]

You know, it's nice to know that he had a plan, that he was going to try to get Samantha's permission and tell Felicity.

 

Oh course, that is completely different than what he told Thea, that lying was to keep the kid safe, which would mean never telling Felicity...

 

GD, every time something quasi-ok comes up, something comes up to squash that and make it even worse.

 

Okay, assuming he was actually eventually going to tell Felicity, it would presumably be after they were married, so how did he expect her to react? In this episode he was apparently resigned to her breaking up with him from the start. Was that bc DD more or less told her, rather than Oliver more voluntarily telling her? Because if he was planning to tell her, that kind of kills the "he did this because of the time change thing."

 

If I actually bought that he had no choice, which I 1000000% do not, the best thing for him would have been not to propose to her until after he told her. Proposing while lying about something that big is really pretty horrible.

Edited February 26, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[bijoux]

 

 

I still don't understand whether he went to CC after the crossover or not.

[looptab]

I'm still in the NO column. MG can say what he wants, I'm going to refuse it if I don't like it :)

[dtissagirl]

The "apart" on that first GIF is making my eye twitch.

[apinknightmare]

I still don't understand whether he went to CC after the crossover or not.

 

It think it's really weird that Oliver and the kid didn't have a single moment together, and Oliver was standing back at SCPD like he didn't think he should say hello to the kid. William never acknowledged him. Since William was at least aware that Oliver existed and knew his mom, and had presumably been to visit him a few times, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense...but a lot of this stuff doesn't, so...whatever, I guess.

[bijoux]

The "apart" on that first GIF is making my eye twitch.

 

I know but that was the one I could find. I find the misspelled gifs hilarious at times. I think my favorite is from 4x11, from Felicity's really good speech about stopping Darhk because it's what they do and "not out of guilt, or VENEER or regret". I couldn't stop laughing at that. The best part is that I think she said spite, so I have no idea how veneer came to be. 

[JenMD]

It think it's really weird that Oliver and the kid didn't have a single moment together, and Oliver was standing back at SCPD like he didn't think he should say hello to the kid.

I forgot about the police station scene.  That was super weird.  I thought for sure the kid was going to acknowledge Oliver, because why wouldn't they take that opportunity to at least give Oliver one moment with William?  Not that I wanted a reunion scene (I would have skipped the SCPD scene all together), but that's so what it looked like they were building towards.

[AyChihuahua]

I think they just pulled back on how despicably Oliver was behaving. They wrote him as visiting, but once it became clear how much everyone hated the storyline and how bad it was making him look, they pulled back and somewhat muddied the waters. For me what happened in a later episode doesn't change what we were told happened in an earlier episode, but overall, I just don't care anymore. I'm happy Felicity's out of the chair, I'm happy Oliver's dumped, and I'm really happy the dumb kid and his horrible hag of a mother are gone, I'm betting for good. If Oliver learns, PERMANENTLY, not to be a lying POS to his loved ones, FINALLY, I may be able to bygones this. (Note, had she not dumped him I'd never be able to forgive this crap. She needs to have a POV, too, which in this case was that his behavior was truly unacceptable, by which I mean she would not accept it.)

 

I also need them to stop making it hard to believe he's really in love with her, so I'm actually hoping for a very sad Panda Oliver for at least an episode, and then an "Imma fight to show my woman I've really changed and I LOOOOOVE her" Oliver. Not physical fighting, bc dude would jump on a grenade for any stranger on the street, but emotional fighting.

[HighHopes]

My take is that he was going back and forth to Central City still. One, so he could get to know his son, and two, so he could prove to Samantha that he was worthy of being in his son's life, so that eventually he could tell Felicity and bring her into his son's life too. 

[Angel12d]

I do think Oliver was going back and forth to CC. They wouldn't have dropped that line in otherwise. But then Oliver's talk to Felicity in the campaign office just makes little sense. Unless he was going to continue to be 'Mommy's friend' until Samantha gave him the go ahead to tell Felicity and then he'd ask if they could tell William he was his father? No clue. EPIC FAIL.

 

But yeah, they definitely messed up this whole storyline by not showing us any scenes of Oliver with William. I know I've always been an advocate of NO KIDS ON ARROW but if they were gonna go the whole 'I need to know my son regardless of anything else' story route, they should have just gone all in. We should have at least seen more than the one scene in 408. Not showing us Oliver building a relationship kind of weakened the emotional punch of the whole story and also undercut Oliver's 'Goodbye son' video at the end. 

 

Once again the show's problem of 'Tell and not show' just tainted everything. You have to show these relationships if you want us to invest in them. Right now I'm just glad William and his mother are far far away and I don't even care. That's not what I should be feeling for Oliver tbh.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Angel12d

[arjumand]

You know, it's nice to know that he had a plan, that he did was going to try to get Samantha's permission and tell Felicity.

 

Oh course, that is completely different than what he told Thea, that lying was to keep the kid safe, which would mean never telling Felicity...

 

GD, every time something quasi-ok comes up, something comes up to squash that and make it even worse.

 

Okay, assuming he was actually eventually going to tell Felicity, it would presumably be after they were married, so how did he expect her to react? In this episode he was apparently resigned to her breaking up with him from the start. Was that bc DD more or less told her, rather than Oliver more voluntarily telling her? Because if he was planning to tell her, that kind of kills the "he did this because of the time change thing."

 

If I actually bought that he had no choice, which I 1000000% do not, the best thing for him would have been not to propose to her until after he told her. Proposing while lying about something that big is really pretty horrible.

 

Watching the episode, at least, in my opinion, Oliver seemed to think that the problem was how Felicity found out, not the issue itself - because that line of his, that he was waiting for Samantha to be won over on the telling Felicity front, begs the following question (and I'm livid that no-one wrote it in for Felicity):

 

"I'm sorry, but how did you think that future conversation was going to go? Oh, it's ok that you've been going to visit your secret child in Central city behind my back for MONTHS, acting like a cheating husband, because you're telling me NOW."

 

 

I think they just pulled back on how despicably Oliver was behaving. They wrote him as visiting, but once it became clear how much everyone hated the storyline and how bad it was making him look, they pulled back and somewhat muddied the waters.

 

 

Which is why I agree with the above - I think they totally retconned that whole 'visits to central city' thing, because otherwise no power on earth would have stopped the question: "So, all those times you went to Central for [insert bullshit excuse here], you were really visiting your secret child?"

Hell, even Thea would have asked! Real Thea, that is, not the Pod!Thea we met in 4x14.

 

I also need them to stop making it hard to believe he's really in love with her, so I'm actually hoping for a very sad Panda Oliver for at least an episode, and then an "Imma fight to show my woman I've really changed and I LOOOOOVE her" Oliver. Not physical fighting, bc dude would jump on a grenade for any stranger on the street, but emotional fighting.

 

 

Oh, you are so right. I need to believe that he's in love, and right now I'm finding it really hard. I keep going back to the speech in last season's finale, which was more about letting go of the Arrow than anything else.

 

I just need him to do something - and not flashy gestures like the proposal. To be honest, any adorableness between 408 and 415 has been tainted for me, and now I need more than just sitting there like a lump while making a sad puppy face. During the breakup, I needed a 'Please don't go,' but I didn't fucking get one, did I?

 

Are we going to get any sort of emotional struggle, anything which suggests he's going to fight for their relationship? Sigh. I was going to put in a magic eight ball "outlook not so good" gif, but I don't want to jinx it.

[AyChihuahua]

I also find it hilarious that will tell the kid at 18 that his father's Oliver Queen and also, btw, the freaking Green Arrow. First of all, that kid is dumb as a doorknob, no reason to think he won't still be dumb as a doorknob at 18. Second, nearly every 18-year-old is dumb as a doorknob ANYWAY, that is not information to dump on them and expect them to handle/keep to themselves. Third, what he's totally unsafe as the GA's kid at 17.5, but suddenly sooper-safe at precisely 18? Like the calendar ticks over and he develops a cloak of impermeability?

 

HA, this SL is so dumb!

[tennisgurl]

You would think the kid would have figured out his dad was the Green Arrow after all this mess. Its gotten pretty freaking obvious. At least, it will hopefully be obvious in retrospect, before the kid turns 18. But, who knows on this show. 

[AyChihuahua]

You would think the kid would have figured out his dad was the Green Arrow after all this mess. Its gotten pretty freaking obvious. At least, it will hopefully be obvious in retrospect, before the kid turns 18. But, who knows on this show. 

Akio would have figured it out during "Uncle Ollie's" first visit.

[EmilyBettFan]

Oh my goodness..... whoever called her being able to walk right at the moment she needed to storm out of the loft gets a MILLION GOLD STARS!!

That was the perfect ending to this shit show of an episode.

I think it was me and one other person lol. Someone told me they would hate if they did that or "I hope they don't do that."

But, now with Emily's interview kind of makes sense why they would do that. They were trying to finish the paralyzed storyline and get on with her tech saving people with disabilities.

[looptab]

 During the breakup, I needed a 'Please don't go,' but I didn't fucking get one, did I?

 

 

Even Sara got a "Please don't do this" when they broke up. And I'm not necessarily saying that I want him to beg, just that it would have been nice to have a reaction of some sort. But we couldn't have that cause they had to have the break up right after he said goodbye to his son.

[AyChihuahua]

Even Sara got a "Please don't do this" when they broke up. And I'm not necessarily saying that I want him to beg, just that it would have been nice to have a reaction of some sort. But we couldn't have that cause they had to have the break up right after he said goodbye to his son.

So did McKenna.

[Chaser]

I'm taking a lot of character beats in this episode with a grain of salt. This storyline is a mess. The timeline is so off I'm pretty sure no one ever set down to work out an actual outline. None of the reactions where in character. It seems to require them to be a mess.

 

Plus, Keito (I'm not sure of the spelling) can't seem to write Felicity or Olicity. Which is kind of important in this episode.

[bijoux]

You would think the kid would have figured out his dad was the Green Arrow after all this mess. Its gotten pretty freaking obvious. At least, it will hopefully be obvious in retrospect, before the kid turns 18. But, who knows on this show. 

 

To be fair to William, Darhk had more face to face encounters with both Oliver and GA than the kid did, and he hasn't been able to figure it out.

 

Someone told me they would hate if they did that or "I hope they don't do that."

 

Possibly me. I sure thought it then and still think the same now. Laaaame.