S03.E13: Final Decision Pt. 1

[Snarklepuss]

She probably appreciates the gifts, but to her it doesn't show that he has love for her, so she remains deeply insecure.

 

Tres seems to be doing everything like he's just going through the motions, so I can't say that I blame Vanessa for feeling insecure.  Besides, I think production has a lot to do with those gifts.  Her gift to him this time seemed targeted more personally.  His have felt more like generic gifts that could have been bought by anyone for anyone.

[allthelight]

In her own words: Her issue is that she is falling in love with Tres and fears her heart will get broken like it has been before by someone else.

 

My commentary: She's in love with Tres, he isn't yet. And instead of truly appreciating the little things (his sensitivity, his ability and willingness to listen, his thoughtful gifts) she only sees what is lacking at the moment: a promise to love her forever and ever and never leave her and always be there for her. What she forgets: yes, he's married her (and in my opinion, he's ready for marriage and makes a good husband so far) - but they don't have history yet. I might go through hell for someone I've known for a bit and might pledge my life to them, I won't do that yet for someone I've known for 4 weeks because at that point, you probably even know your mailman better.

 

These are facts: According to Vanessa herself and Vanessa's sister, Vanessa is very difficult to communicate with (so it's not to do with Tres' character or his demeanor without cameras). According to Vanessa, she has abandonment issues and has fears of getting her heart broken. And what we've witnessed: SHE wouldn't look him into the eye when he was begging her to communicate with him. SHE walked out on him. SHE (not just him) was also doubtful whether she wanted to continue her marriage. Let's look at this from his perspective: he's TV wife won't communicate properly with him, walked out on him, constantly asks for reassurance, doesn't like his way of socializing and puts him under scrutinity. If he isn't ready for marriage (I think he is - with the right person), she's even less ready for it. Marriage is more than just "I want to married so that I'm married'. She's doing my head in, because she has a very good thing going and is sabotaging it. From all the MAFS people, she really got the best deal and it's still not enough. Some people claim she would have been happier with David, but does anyone truly believe this? She's so insecure and unhappy, she would have taken issue with anyone.

 

She's not a bad person, but she's standing in her own way when she could have it all.

[allthelight]

Tres seems to be doing everything like he's just going through the motions, so I can't say that I blame Vanessa for feeling insecure.  Besides, I think production has a lot to do with those gifts.  Her gift to him this time seemed targeted more personally.  His have felt more like generic gifts that could have been bought by anyone for anyone.

 

How are his gifts producer driven and hers not? And in her own words, she likes his gifts because they show that he's listenting to her. Our problem is probably that we don't see the history behind them. Like, with the perfume, he got some flack because seemingly he bought some generic scent, but Vanessa revealed later on that it's actually her favorite perfume. And as for the bracelet - she wants reassurance, so he went out and bought her something that would show her she belongs to him/his family and smooth out her insecurity a bit - a Russell bracelet, like in Vanessa Russell.

 

Honestly, with some people/Vanessa, he can't win. I wasn't sure about him either at first, but all this time, this guy hasn't put a foot wrong on the show and on SM. So why not just take him at face value unless we have proof for the opposite?

[Snarklepuss]

Vanessa and Tres: I don't see Vanessa's problems with Tres as being rooted in her desire for a perfect Stepford husband, with nothing but romance and flowers and jewelry and goo-goo eyes 24/7.

Instead, I've concluded that something is seriously bothering Vanessa about Tres himself, and that her usual spidey sense

and mega-oversensitivity have gone off the charts. IOW, Vanessa knows something we don't know. Even if the couple says yes on decision day, they won't last until the six-month reunion, imo. Vanessa canNOT get past whatever it is driving her craycray about Tres.

And recognizing Vanessa's recalcitrant personality, I don't think she will ever spill about the truth of her misery.

 

I've been leaning towards this possibility with Vanessa myself because if Tres can make me feel insecure right through the TV and I'm not even the one in the relationship with him, I can only imagine she's picking up on even more than I can.  Not that I am a psychic or anything but when a guy is really into a woman I tend to know it.  I've honed a good gut instinct for that over the course of my lifetime, and it rarely fails me.  Now of course being that this is on TV and the editing can make things look a little misleading it might not be as accurate, but something really makes me suspicious when a guy says and does all the right things but my gut just doesn't feel the corresponding sentiment that should go behind it.  I saw the right feeling with Jason and he is still with Courtney.  But I'm just not completely convinced with Tres.  Now I don't doubt that he likes her and would like to continue to date her, but the special feelings that should accompany the gifts he gives her and special acts of "devotion" don't seem to me to be there.  I think Vanessa knows he is being manipulated by production so she is even more suspicious of his sincerity and worries he may be doing those things mostly to look good on camera.  When David did this I thought he was justified because Ashley deserved anything he did, but with Tres, I would like to know what he's REALLY feeling because I'm actually confused about that.  If he is really feeling it from the heart I think he should show it more because it may be the major reason Vanessa is feeling insecure.  I have said this before, but I don't think Vanessa is the only one in that relationship with a communication problem.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[Snarklepuss]

How are his gifts producer driven and hers not? And in her own words, she likes his gifts because they show that he's listenting to her. Our problem is probably that we don't see the history behind them. Like, with the perfume, he got some flack because seemingly he bought some generic scent, but Vanessa revealed later on that it's actually her favorite perfume. And as for the bracelet - she wants reassurance, so he went out and bought her something that would show her she belongs to him/his family and smooth out her insecurity a bit - a Russell bracelet, like in Vanessa Russell.

 

Honestly, with some people/Vanessa, he can't win. I wasn't sure about him either at first, but all this time, this guy hasn't put a foot wrong on the show and on SM. So why not just take him at face value unless we have proof for the opposite?

 

The gift I saw Vanessa give him in the last episode was something I felt she went out of her way to put thought into. I could feel a very personal, romantic sentiment behind it.  With Tres' gifts, I don't know what's motivating him.  For sure, the gifts were appropriate and thoughtful, but nothing beyond what any producer might think of on their own as a great idea to give Vanessa.  Vanessa's gift was so silly and personal it struck me as being her idea from her heart, and not likely something a TV producer would tell her to do.  YMMV on this, but that's what my gut is telling me.  Forgive me, but I have a hard time taking at "face value" what a guy does that doesn't convince me that everything is coming from his heart.  It may be, but if it is, why isn't he communicating that better?  I honestly don't think Vanessa is the only person in that relationship with a communication issue.

[allthelight]

What sentiments should he communicate better in your opinion?

I mean he's told her that he's extremely unhappy with how she walked out on him and that he feels like she wants him to change into something he is probably not.

I don't disagree with your assessment that Vsnessa is picking up on things. But these come partly with the territory (I don't expect him to fall into undying love with her within six weeks) and partly they are her own fault (walk out on someone and question their commitment 24/7 - things are bound to go downhill).

I think how we see Tres depends on how we see MAFS. I expect the participants to give it a real go, I don't expect them to love their TV spouses within six weeks like Severus Snape loved Lily Evans.

[Madding crowd]

she yelled at him and cursed at him and made him leave the house. He had to stay outside all day." She explained that it was so upsetting

 

No one stayed outside all day. All of these people maintained their apartments during this time. There are also hotels, friends houses and the like. I really think that in my opinion, the demonizing of Sam and making Neil into a saint are way overblown. 

When I first met my husband I liked him but didn't think there was any spark. I was not rude to him but neither was I immediately married and expected to share a bed with him. Over time, he became more and more attractive to me and I fell in love. I believe this is happening with Sam. She did not hit Neil or make him sleep outside-this is just untrue. She was verbally mean to him and she apologized and promised to do better; what more can anyone do? No one is perfect. Neil is quirky, passive, excessively quiet and said he was uncomfortable with even being kissed on the cheek. Yet, Sam is awful for not giving him sex. 

 

I will go out on a limb and say I would not have sex with someone I just met and whom I was not attracted to. I do think Ashley was awful to David, but Sam is trying. And now she is put down because she liked the small gifts he brought her? If she didn't like them, she would be hated even more. She can't win. If Neil wants a divorce, perhaps it's because he has issues with intimacy. 

 

I don't know what's going on Vanessa and Tres and wonder if we will ever know. She and Tres both looked nervous and she looked kind of depressed. I don't know if something came up between them or if Tres was kind of telling her he wants out-something is going on there. When we first met Vanessa, she was so positive and bubbly and now she is anything but. She does have issues but I think something else is going on. I'm going to guess that Tres implied to her he doesn't want to stay with her and she is pretty broken up about it and didn't know how to handle the last few hours of the show. I hope I am wrong and they stay together.

[izabella]

I think Tres was more into Vanessa in the beginning, but as he got to know her, he started to see that she's hard to be with.  I think he'd be more into her if she hadn't been so unhappy the whole time.

[Kareem]

How are his gifts producer driven and hers not? And in her own words, she likes his gifts because they show that he's listenting to her. Our problem is probably that we don't see the history behind them. Like, with the perfume, he got some flack because seemingly he bought some generic scent, but Vanessa revealed later on that it's actually her favorite perfume. And as for the bracelet - she wants reassurance, so he went out and bought her something that would show her she belongs to him/his family and smooth out her insecurity a bit - a Russell bracelet, like in Vanessa Russell.

Honestly, with some people/Vanessa, he can't win. I wasn't sure about him either at first, but all this time, this guy hasn't put a foot wrong on the show and on SM. So why not just take him at face value unless we have proof for the opposite?

Exactly. He can't win with some people and Vanessa. Is it producer driven that he laughs off stepping in her dog's poop? Keeps his cool every time she does her piss and moan routine over her imagined slights? She liked the looks of him on wedding day and then moped through the honeymoon to the point of being too upset to eat because he was honest about dating and how he came to be asked on the show and she's had a dozen more mope-inducing episodes since. I don't do psychiatric evaluations nor diagnose mental problems of these people but Vanessa's got issues a blind man can see. He gets a raft of grief for being nice to her and patient with her by some. Is that producer driven? Don't think so. If they could control personalities that well, the other four bozos would be better people. smh

[Paddywagon]

And Sam...God, I would have turned cartwheels if Neil pulled over, stopped the car, and KICKED HER JANKY ASS TO THE CURB. Upper hand, where is it, Sam?

I totally agree with your post except the part I changed in all caps. :)

[Soup333]

Sam in that car kissing and pulling on him was so over the top. She realized too late what she was about to lose and starting pushing waaay too hard. I wouldn't be able to forgive her prior behavior because she has that in her. Yeah, she's cool and affectionate now, but she has the ability to morph back into that wildebeest at any time and I couldn't walk on eggshells hoping that something I did wouldn't wake that creature. Run, Neil. Run while you have a chance!

[StayingAfterSunday]

Okayyyy, I'm going to express an observation thay may come off as "out there."  I've just got to say this, though, about Tres and Vanessa, specifically, about Vanessa's constant state of rumination:   

The way she appears to glom onto negative thoughts could be a side effect of smoking.  Weed, that is.  It could be that it doesn't agree with her but she indulges, so to speak, because Tres likes it.  (As I said, this is a theory that veers off the conventional trail, but I think worthy of consideration at any rate.)

 

Marijuana doesn't agree with everyone, causing some people to become very introspective and overly analytical, to their own detriment, considering the mindset is usually one of negativity for these sensitive individuals.  

[Soup333]

Okayyyy, I'm going to express an observation thay may come off as "out there."  I've just got to say this, though, about Tres and Vanessa, specifically, about Vanessa's constant state of rumination:   

The way she appears to glom onto negative thoughts could be a side effect of smoking.  Weed, that is.  It could be that it doesn't agree with her but she indulges, so to speak, because Tres likes it.  (As I said, this is a theory that veers off the conventional trail, but I think worthy of consideration at any rate.)

 

Marijuana doesn't agree with everyone, causing some people to become very introspective and overly analytical, to their own detriment, considering the mindset is usually one of negativity for these sensitive individuals.  

 

Why would you assume they smoke weed? Did Tres say this at some point?

Edited February 25, 2016 by Soup333

[Snarklepuss]

Exactly. He can't win with some people and Vanessa. Is it producer driven that he laughs off stepping in her dog's poop? Keeps his cool every time she does her piss and moan routine over her imagined slights? She liked the looks of him on wedding day and then moped through the honeymoon to the point of being too upset to eat because he was honest about dating and how he came to be asked on the show and she's had a dozen more mope-inducing episodes since. I don't do psychiatric evaluations nor diagnose mental problems of these people but Vanessa's got issues a blind man can see. He gets a raft of grief for being nice to her and patient with her by some. Is that producer driven? Don't think so. If they could control personalities that well, the other four bozos would be better people. smh

 

David bent over backwards for Ashley even though she treated him like dirt.  Do I really believe that he was genuinely "into" her or was he just fulfilling his obligation to the show?  I think it was probably mostly the latter plus wishful thinking, but no more than that.  Now I don't think it's that bad with Tres.  I don't think Tres doesn't like Vanessa.  I think he genuinely likes her.  I just don't think his feelings about her at this point are along enough for him to be showering her with gifts and being AS patient as he has been with her.  I think a lot of that is motivated by production and to honor his contract.  He himself is on camera all but admitting that he's not that far along yet.  And a lot of that actually might be due to Vanessa being hard to be with, so I'm definitely not blind to that.  BUT, (and this is a big but) if he were dating her in "real life" at this point I don't think he would be doing all the things that the show is making him do with her (i.e., gifts, romantic dinners, romantic play dates, etc.).  I don't even know if he would be exclusive with her at this point.  That is really my point in a nutshell.  And given all that I can understand Vanessa feels set up - Set up by the show and by him for a disappointment because I think she feels in her gut that if this were real life he wouldn't be doing all those things, and possibly never would.  Just my opinion.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[Snarklepuss]

What sentiments should he communicate better in your opinion?

 

If his level of feeling for Vanessa was as far along as giving her romantic cards, gifts, roses, dinners, play dates, etc. I would expect him to show more sincerity and genuine feelings in giving those things, but I don't.  If that's not how he feels yet or ever he shouldn't be doing those things but I think he's doing it because the show is making him do it.  The point that Tres is not where Vanessa wants him to be has been made a lot on this board but if that's truly the case then why is he sending her the signals that a person sends when they're really taken with someone?  Tres can't be both ways.  Either he is really into Vanessa and his actions show true feeling or he is not all that into her yet and all the gifts, flowers and other over-the-top romantic gesutres are arguably leading her on into thinking his feelings should be more advanced than they probably are at this point.  I can't blame her for feeling set up by that because he has already TOLD her his feelings are not that advanced - so then why is he showering her with totally romantic stuff that usually only a guy who is really into a woman showers her with?  THAT is my point.

[Meliss]

Vanessa has a lot going for her- she is beautiful, sensitive & kind. She also has a good job & is a great cook. I think Tres really liked her & thinks she is pretty but she's just not interesting enough to keep his interests.

This is what I see on the show so to be fair, she may be totally different in real life. I'm sure she's not always frozen in emotional turmoil & actually enjoys herself. I haven't seen her enjoying life much. She seems depressed.

If I was matched with someone like her I would not find it stimulating. Tres seems to want someone more fun, energetic & intellectually stimulating. Not in the sense that she needs to be more educated but in the sense that she needs to keep up with conversation & be more witty. Having interesting hobbies would also help.

Saying all of this about Vanessa is not to put her down - I just think Tres is more sophisticated. Vanessa is a home-body. A man will come along and love that about her, but it's not Tres.

Tres is no saint though. I wish he would have been honest with her when his feelings changed towards her mid way through. When a guy acts like they are a couple & buys her things, it's really just playing with her emotions & that is wrong. I also think her reactions to the gifts has something to do with the lack of sincerity.

He's thinking he wants to be nice to her because he does care about her. Unfortunately she has fallen for him so these acts of kindness are just leading her on. It's painful to watch - reminds me of all the times my heart was broken!

Also this is my opinion & not a spoiler - I have no idea what happens on decision day!!

Edited February 25, 2016 by Meliss

[Vinyasa]

I'd  rather see them "fake" married (fake as in not legal, not Ashley fake married) but still have to go through the motions of a married couple. Then after the 6 weeks is up decide if they want to make it legal, date or split.

 

It is much more interesting that the marriages are legal and that they just can't walk away. They have to make an effort because they all wanted  to be "married".  Otherwise, it might as well be The Bachelor.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Vinyasa

[Neurochick]

I would expect him to show more sincerity and genuine feelings in giving those things, but I don't.

 

 

This is interesting because we all have our biases based on our own experiences.  I see Tres as being sincere, but you do not.  It's all based on our own experiences and not necessarily what is really happening.  It's like there are three sides to a story, side a, side b and the truth.

[allthelight]

This is interesting because we all have our biases based on our own experiences.  I see Tres as being sincere, but you do not.  It's all based on our own experiences and not necessarily what is really happening.  It's like there are three sides to a story, side a, side b and the truth.

 

Yep. And it's probably to do with the show as well. So far, I've seen more damaged and double-faced people on this shows than sane and normal ones. So when someone comes around who has a good job going, is handsome and extremely nice, it rings alarm bells (like why would someone so nice and wholesome be on this show?). I know it was like that for me in the beginning.

But following him on the show and on his Twitter account, I've come to the conclusion that he is what he is: a nice, laid-back guy who shows appreciation by being kind and giving thoughtful gifts and who feels appreciated by small, kind gestures as well, like her cooking for him.

He never claimed he loved her,  so I don't see him leading her on. He's just giving it a real go, trying to treat his wife well and looking for what is possible between them. In my opinion, if she had been more easy-going and hadn't turned this into hard work, he would have fallen in love with her by now.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Drogo
social media spoiler-tagged

[izabella]

Tres is no saint though. I wish he would have been honest with her when his feelings changed towards her mid way through. When a guy acts like they are a couple & buys her things, it's really just playing with her emotions & that is wrong. I also think her reactions to the gifts has something to do with the lack of sincerity.

 

He's thinking he wants to be nice to her because he does care about her. Unfortunately she has fallen for him so these acts of kindness are just leading her on. It's painful to watch - reminds me of all the times my heart was broken!

 

I don't really think Vanessa has fallen for Tres.  She might think she's in love with him, but I don't see it.  She's never happy around him, she's always moping and uptight about something. 

 

I feel like Vanessa actually shut down on the honeymoon, as soon as Tres told her he wasn't chomping at the bit to be married to a stranger but was willing to give the arranged marriage thing a try.  After that, there was really nothing Tres could do or say that would keep her mind open to him.  She just kept looking for "evidence" that he was a bad husband - that's self-sabotage on her part.

 

So I don't believe she is or was heartbroken, except to the extent she lost her fantasy of what an arranged tv reality marriage was going to be.

[Jax7917]

Real shocker there that ashley wanted a divorce. I actually was waiting for her to say I want to stay married so it would be a dramatic moment that the producers would love.

 

That being said, not sure how David is still taking the high road with her and letting her use the texting excuse as the reason for divorce when every person including both of them know that's a lie. Ashley was the worst possible contestant for this show. She came on it thinking the guy she would be set up with would look like Leonardo Dicaprio (oh wait, he has blonde hair so scratch that). But she went on a marry a stranger show hoping she would be set up with someone gorgeous, and didn't care about any other quality that the guy has. Would she rather have had a Ryan Denino from last season where hes really good looking, but treats the girl like crap? Because if you're going on this type of show, you need to learn to get past the shallowness or go on the Bachelor instead. Well, I hope she gets exactly what she's looking for while David will find someone who isn't a robot with no personality. The experts really screwed him.

 

Vanessa's look away/moving around in a scrunchy way face when she's mad has got to go. It's annoying

 

 

 

 

[kira28]

 

I will go out on a limb and say I would not have sex with someone I just met and whom I was not attracted to. I do think Ashley was awful to David, but Sam is trying. And now she is put down because she liked the small gifts he brought her? If she didn't like them, she would be hated even more. She can't win. If Neil wants a divorce, perhaps it's because he has issues with intimacy.

I agree I would not have sex with someone I just met whom I was not attracted to. But I would not agree to get married to a stranger either. and there is ALOT of intimate things you can do that fall between side hugs and sex.  For God's sake two of the three couples didn't even kiss on the lips (Sam is making a play at six weeks). Hold hands, snuggle, give a back rub to your partner, give a foot rub, all of that can be done fully clothed. I definitely don't see how Neil being uncomfortable with Sam is him having issues with intimacy. If you were to pair me with a guy who constantly put me down and laughed about it (pretending to be joking) and repeatedly insulted me, showed no interest in what I liked to do, was only happy when we were doing activities HE liked to do, a guy who freaked out and threw me out of his house when I tried to "joke" back, a guy who when I tried to accommodate him by moving into his apartment (uncomfortable as that must have been) responded in a way that clearly let me know I was NOT welcome there and he was not going to accommodate me in any sort of way (no key, no closet space etc) a guy who constantly found fault with everything I did and when I tried to do things his way he STILL found things to change about me or complain about meanwhile he thinks he's perfect and a "nice person" (LMAO)  then I would be frustrated, shell shocked and very hurt and cautious and would want a divorce too!  And as far as I know I do not have any intimacy issues. 

 

I think Sam's turn around is for the cameras only. I think she wants to extend her 15 minutes. I don't think she is into Neil. If he chooses to stay married I feel very sorry for him. Sam is deluded about how she thinks people see her. I think her roommate Sammie hopes she stays married so she doesn't have to live with Sam anymore!! And can get away from her annoying, volatile have-to-walk-on eggshells- and-constantly-kiss-her-ass roommate.

 

I could not believe the Ashley that sat in that room for decision time was the same Ashley we have seen for six weeks. She was positively giddy! Just beaming!!!  She was so excited she could not contain herself. I think (hope) David chose to say he wanted to stay married to make Ashley look better. So she wasn't dumped on national tv. He was being a (delusional) gentleman.  Because there is NO way he could have even hoped there was a possibility she would say yes. She could not stand David. Wanted nothing to do with him since day 1. 

 

I don't think Tres and Vanessa will stay together. If they do it is because there is some sort of financial incentive provided by the show to do so. Vanessa seems too drained of energy and unhappy. This should be the "honeymoon period" where everyone is happy and excited. She has checked out for some reason. Tres may be trying but he is not living up to Vanessa's high standards. Vanessa looks rough (face is bloated or something) so something is up. She was cheerful and energetic at first.  Now lethargic and sad and almost angry.  I think Tres needs someone with more energy. Vanessa needs a David. Someone with blind faith who doesn't care what his bride does, short of murdering him in his sleep he will happily stay married no matter what they do to him.

[Evil Queen]

No one stayed outside all day. All of these people maintained their apartments during this time. There are also hotels, friends houses and the like. I really think that in my opinion, the demonizing of Sam and making Neil into a saint are way overblown. 

When I first met my husband I liked him but didn't think there was any spark. I was not rude to him but neither was I immediately married and expected to share a bed with him. Over time, he became more and more attractive to me and I fell in love. I believe this is happening with Sam. She did not hit Neil or make him sleep outside-this is just untrue. She was verbally mean to him and she apologized and promised to do better; what more can anyone do? No one is perfect. Neil is quirky, passive, excessively quiet and said he was uncomfortable with even being kissed on the cheek. Yet, Sam is awful for not giving him sex. 

 

I will go out on a limb and say I would not have sex with someone I just met and whom I was not attracted to. I do think Ashley was awful to David, but Sam is trying. And now she is put down because she liked the small gifts he brought her? If she didn't like them, she would be hated even more. She can't win. If Neil wants a divorce, perhaps it's because he has issues with intimacy. 

 

No one said they had to have sex. In fact most of us I think have said we hope they don't and why it would be bad. She is just not a nice person. Even her roommate, Sammie, has said enough to get the point that Sam is a horrible bully. Go back and listen to the talk her and Neil had. As well as the girl jumps when Sam says to. She isn't sorry for how she has treated Neil. It wasn't just in the beginning that she was horrible. She has been left and right this whole show. She wanted to move back to her place but yet he can't have a key or space to put things in the room when they are suppose to be living together during this show. She told him he would have to sit outside or come after they (Sammie or her) were home from work. She has made it all about HER. Not about getting to know Neil and his likes/dislikes. When he tells her he doesn't like his face touched she goes right for his face and roughly rubs dirty hands on it. I can't imagine who would want that to happen to them. I know I hate my face touched in certain ways and especially if someone's hands aren't clean. When it comes to the gifts, I don't think he should have brought her any. They are sorry gifts for not saying what she wanted basically. That is wrong. She turns it so he has to be sorry for things but she NEVER is. Has she ever said sorry to him for all her crap? She is just a horrible, nasty person and has shown it on this and on SM. The way Neil seemed before marrying her was not how he had been after. He seemed to be out of it once he saw her behavior at the wedding and then got the brunt of it directed at him. I think what we have seen of him is him being a decent person that is walking on eggshells and trying his best to get through the rest of this without setting her off. He came off to me like a decent guy from the beginning and during this whole thing. Heck even during their picnic with a couple friends, Neil's friend noticed how different Neil was and said something but Sam blew that off that he was fine. He wasn't. You can see the fun loving person slowly slip away from him as the show went on. I hope that they do not stay together and that the person he seemed to be before is back. If not people like her will suck the life from you as fast as they can to bring you down. She is seriously all about herself and making sure to bully all those around her. I am also betting that Neil doesn't have intimacy issues expect when it comes to someone like Sam...but who wouldn't with that constantly putting you down for things and not showing real interest. The only reason she is acting like she is near the end is because she wants to know where he is and make sure he says yes so either she can tell him she doesn't want to be with him and go all bully crazy on him like she has or know ahead of time he will say no so she can either play victim/guilt trip. Its kind of like the miss you thing, instead of answering herself she turned it on him and when she didn't like the answer she had a fit and played a guilt trip. Typical of people like her. 

[Meliss]

No one stayed outside all day. All of these people maintained their apartments during this time. There are also hotels, friends houses and the like. I really think that in my opinion, the demonizing of Sam and making Neil into a saint are way overblown.

Madding Crowd-

You must have missed the part when I wrote that this was my daughter's interpretation of Sam & Neil. She's a kid, so in her mind, he must've been out there all day! At the very least he probably stayed in his truck or drove somewhere else. I'm sure he didn't actually stay out in the yard all day. :)

In regards to your opinion about how people tend to see Neil & Sam--Neil could be more expressive & has a Sheldon Cooper quality about him that he can't read other people's emotions well or does not know how to respond to them; however, Sam appears verbally abusive & controlling. A lot of Posters see this as they watch the show. When she says things like "I don't want to have to make him mad on purpose". That's a red flag. I also see it in the way she treats him. Lots of examples have been posted.

[Evil Queen]

In regards to your opinion about how people tend to see Neil & Sam--Neil could be more expressive & has a Sheldon Cooper quality about him that he can't read other people's emotions well or does not know how to respond to them; however, Sam appears verbally abusive & controlling. A lot of Posters see this as they watch the show. When she says things like "I don't want to have to make him mad on purpose". That's a red flag. I also see it in the way she treats him. Lots of examples have been posted.

 

I just want to say that people around people like Sam can make you not know how to show your emotions and come off that way. Having a mom similar to Sam, I basically got to that point as a teen and was told by my mom I must be depressed and thrown into therapy. I am far from that way in my life now but just wanted to give a little insight into the other side of that kind of a situation. Yet at the same time he could be like that but I didn't feel like he was in the beginning before getting married to Sam.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

On The Eve Of Married At First Sight Decision Day, Everyone's Miserable!
The clock is running up on America's least favorite social experiment and the couples are reflecting on how far they've come.

[gunderda]

There's no way Neil says he wants to divorce.  He's the only one in this cast that has commented over and over and over that he is 100% FOR arranged marriages because there have been successful ones in his family.  I don't think he went into this thinking they would instantly be attracted to each other.  I think he knows and understands how you have to give it time. 

Especially with Sam's mood changing.  I would be really surprised if he says he doesn't want to continue on.

 

And I really like them together!

[jmonkey]

David and Ashley: Well, that went exactly like I thought it'd go. I so wish textgate would've never happened. All that did was give Ashley a canned response to rationalize a divorce. We all knew she would bring up trust issues when opting for the divorce. I would've loved to hear her explanation if textgate wouldn't have happened. All she would've had was that she wasn't physically attracted to him and that would've made her seem shallow. Damn you, David! You had the upperhand and blew it. I can't believe David was delusional enough to want to stay married. Eternal optimism is one thing, but to want to marry someone who is so blatantly repulsed by you and thinking you've grown a lot together when no growth has occurred is delusional. They're actually worse off now than they were before they met, but David was going to soldier through it anyway and was willing to settle for a miserable lifetime with the Stache.

 

Tres and Vanessa: In the first two seasons, 2 out of the 3 couples stayed married. I think this season will follow that. I think these two will stay married, but not for long. I'm a huge fan of Tres and think he's been an incredible partner for Vanessa. He seems to have really taken to the direction of the experts and production and so agreeing to stay in a marriage that he might not be ready for is the next logical step. I think Tres will feel pressured into saying "yes" to keep Vanessa happy. However, outside of the confines of the show, he'll quickly tire of Vanessa's sabotaging antics and this marriage will not last. I hope bad things don't come out like with the 2 Ryans from Season 2, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

Neil and Sam: Every time Sam was touching and kissing Neil in the car I swear I felt it and wanted to punch her. It made me uncomfortable and Neil looked uncomfortable too. I'm pretty sure we're both on the Autistic Spectrum. Even so, Neil seems willing to appease her. So if she says she wants to stay married, Neil will follow suit. I can definitely see the experts making Neil go first and him opting for a divorce and then changing his mind after seeing how butthurt Sam gets. That has been the pattern so far in their relationship. Neil should definitely run away, but I think he enjoys the feeling of being wanted more than Sam herself. This marriage won't last either, but it will last long enough for the experts to pat themselves on the back for maintaining their 66.6% success rate. How the experts can keep their jobs after seasons 2 and 3 is what amazes me most.

Edited February 25, 2016 by jmonkey

[Soup333]

Was Sam touching his face in the car? Even after he told her he didn't like it?

[Jax7917]

Neil is Sheldon Cooper

[Gigi43]

I was flipping around when I was watching the rerun. Recaps of this bad season do not interest me.

 

I hope at the reunion the 'Experts' will point out Ashley was checked out before the text thing. She never checked in. Just own that. She never showed signs of coming around, or start to say she was finding him attractive.  It doesn't make her a horrible person to say 'I just couldn't feel anything' but it makes her look like a weak child to now just use the one thing David did as her reason for divorce when we can all see even before that it was coming. The Experts shouldn't have had her tell him why, the reasons were clear. David should have pointed out then and there the marriage had been over before the text thing, but he still seemed to think there was something there, which, WTF? The show even knew to get the clearly obvious decision out of the way first in Part 1.

 

Any time Sam says something nice about Neil it's really about her "he's nice to me", "he's considering me", not "he's funny/smart/whatever". Run, Neil!

 

If Tres and Vanessa do break up, I can see them possible keeping in touch if they live near each other for hookups, if they end on mutual terms. There is something there and I do think they enjoy each others company. They're the only ones I believe genuinely like each other as people, despite obvious flaws, they just don't have what it takes to make a marriage. Last season I think Ryan and Jessica only tried to stay together for the hopes of a First Year season payday, so I put Vanessa and Tres as the most likable couple of the last two seasons... then again that's not a huge accomplishment given the competition so maybe my judgement is a bit skewed.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Gigi43

[zxy556575]

If Tres and Vanessa do break up, I can see them possibly keeping in touch if they live near each other for hookups, if they end on mutual terms.

 

Who knows for sure, but my suspicion is that their sex life is not that hot. Like, at all.

[Nffftshewasgone]

I just want to say that people around people like Sam can make you not know how to show your emotions and come off that way. Having a mom similar to Sam, I basically got to that point as a teen and was told by my mom I must be depressed and thrown into therapy. I am far from that way in my life now but just wanted to give a little insight into the other side of that kind of a situation. Yet at the same time he could be like that but I didn't feel like he was in the beginning before getting married to Sam.

Not sure if this is relevant, and really not sure what my point is (LOL), but I have a friend from college who seemed to hate everybody but a select few. I, for some reason, was one of the few. Could never understand why she liked me and not others. Always expected she'd turn on me but she never did. She had guys falling all over her and never gave them the time of day. I guess what I'm saying is some people are really picky and know this about themselves? She maintains these close friendships still. Perhaps we all "put her in her place" early on in our relationships with her, IDK. I think maybe Sam really does see Neil as unfaltering or unflappable and that is meaningful to her. I'll shut up now because I'm confusing myself.

[BunnySlippers]

Not sure if this is relevant, and really not sure what my point is (LOL), but I have a friend from college who seemed to hate everybody but a select few. I, for some reason, was one of the few. Could never understand why she liked me and not others. Always expected she'd turn on me but she never did. She had guys falling all over her and never gave them the time of day. I guess what I'm saying is some people are really picky and know this about themselves? She maintains these close friendships still. Perhaps we all "put her in her place" early on in our relationships with her, IDK. I think maybe Sam really does see Neil as unfaltering or unflappable and that is meaningful to her. I'll shut up now because I'm confusing myself.

I've met several people like that. They are obnoxious and rude and and aggressive until you stand up to them, but once you do, you're their friend. So I know what you mean.

[Snarklepuss]

This is interesting because we all have our biases based on our own experiences.  I see Tres as being sincere, but you do not.  It's all based on our own experiences and not necessarily what is really happening.  It's like there are three sides to a story, side a, side b and the truth.

 

Oh I think he's sincere, I just don't think he's giving those gifts with the level of personal feeling that Vanessa feels they should be given with.  I think a lot of women attach meaning to gifts like that as an indication of how deep a guy's feelings go for them.  I just don't think that Tres has a level of feeling for her yet to match those gifts in Vanessa's (and my) mind.  I think those gifts to a greater extent than not were given by him out of a sense of obligation because he was told to do it - Sincere obligation, and because he knew they were what she would want him to do, but obligation nonetheless.  I think all of the particpants gave their gifts because they were told to by production and definitely not all of them would have given those gifts if not told to.  It's hard to say what Tres would be doing if not for doing what he was told to do, but my sense is he wouldn't be doing all that.  YMMV.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[Snarklepuss]

There's no way Neil says he wants to divorce.  He's the only one in this cast that has commented over and over and over that he is 100% FOR arranged marriages because there have been successful ones in his family.  I don't think he went into this thinking they would instantly be attracted to each other.  I think he knows and understands how you have to give it time. 

Especially with Sam's mood changing.  I would be really surprised if he says he doesn't want to continue on.

 

I think Neil would have been better off on TLC's "Married by Mom and Dad" if he wanted the kind of arranged marriage his family had.  I doubt his parents would have matched him with someone as uncouth and ill mannered as Sam.

[sarkygal]

If Tres and Vanessa do break up, I can see them possibly keeping in touch if they live near each other for hookups, if they end on mutual terms.

 

Who knows for sure, but my suspicion is that their sex life is not that hot. Like, at all.

 

Funny thing, but I went back and watched the matching episode and the experts deemed Vanessa to be the more sexually assertive of the two. Of all 3 ladies, she was the only one who appeared to have a fun bachelorette and had a great personality. She reminds me of some friends of mine who feel that "wifely" behavior means acting like a preacher's wife. It's unattractive enough in  long term couples, and certainly a turn off when you marry a stranger.

Edited February 26, 2016 by sarkygal

[Madding crowd]

I'm not sure why Neil or Ashley came on the show. Neil is probably a good guy, but he is poor at talking about feelings, does not like to be touched or have intimacy, likes solitary activities, and is very passive. Why in the world would the experts think he would be a good fit for the show? Arranged marriages like his grandparents had do not exist in America. In most arranged marriages, the women has little choice in who she is matched up with, usually has no sexual experience, and no work experience. She is usually at the mercy of the man chosen by her parents. I'm not suggesting Neil wants this, but what does he want?

 

I still will not agree that Sam is psychotic/the worst person ever/Hitler in a dress (exaggeration!). I don't find her very likable, but she did own up to her mistakes and she did try to make things right. i also believe she came to find Neil attractive and I think most women would take their time to warm up to him. What I don't see is Neil making 100% effort. He has never communicated his feelings, initiated physical contact or made any suggestions as to how his marriage could work better.

 

And I understand many of you are basing your opinions of Sam on people who you personally know  through work or family. But you don't know Sam. And I have a few family members who have been mean in the past. If they told me they were sorry and wanted to work things out, I would agree because what is the alternative? Everyone makes mistake and no one is perfect. 

 

There are so many awful people in the world, people who are bigots, child molesters, murderers, homophobes. I can't muster up actual hatred for someone because they they were anxious, immature and had a foul mouth. My opinion only of course. 

[Meliss]

I'm not sure why Neil or Ashley came on the show. Neil is probably a good guy, but he is poor at talking about feelings, does not like to be touched or have intimacy, likes solitary activities, and is very passive. Why in the world would the experts think he would be a good fit for the show? Arranged marriages like his grandparents had do not exist in America. In most arranged marriages, the women has little choice in who she is matched up with, usually has no sexual experience, and no work experience. She is usually at the mercy of the man chosen by her parents. I'm not suggesting Neil wants this, but what does he want?

I still will not agree that Sam is psychotic/the worst person ever/Hitler in a dress (exaggeration!). I don't find her very likable, but she did own up to her mistakes and she did try to make things right. i also believe she came to find Neil attractive and I think most women would take their time to warm up to him. What I don't see is Neil making 100% effort. He has never communicated his feelings, initiated physical contact or made any suggestions as to how his marriage could work better.

And I understand many of you are basing your opinions of Sam on people who you personally know through work or family. But you don't know Sam. And I have a few family members who have been mean in the past. If they told me they were sorry and wanted to work things out, I would agree because what is the alternative? Everyone makes mistake and no one is perfect.

There are so many awful people in the world, people who are bigots, child molesters, murderers, homophobes. I can't muster up actual hatred for someone because they they were anxious, immature and had a foul mouth. My opinion only of course.

You are right about arranged marriages in some cultures, past & present, in which women are at the mercy of her parents & husband with no say at all. I don't know if that is what happened with Neil's grandparents - I don't believe the details were disclosed. I have not gotten a vibe at all that Neil wants this. If you remember the finances discussion, she was the one who was "traditional" in that she felt he should pay more. He seemed to be on board with 50/50. I don't find him possessive or controlling at all.

Did Sam ever own up to her mistakes or apologize specifically for her behavior? I did not see that. She has some regrets and made some generalizations here at the last hour, but she has not taken any responsibility. Saying "I deserve it" & other such statements about how Neil may want to divorce her is not taking responsibility to me. Perhaps she does behind the scenes, but I do not see a humbled person on her social media.

You are right, there are evil people who commit heinous acts in this world. And "hating" someone on a reality show who has not committed any such act, does seem over the top. I see that more on social media than here though.

You have compassion for Sam while others do not. I am one who does not & probably for the same reason as the others. Ive been in a relationship with a narcissistic bully & it made my life a living hell. So, yes, he did not commit a heinous act like murder, but he took 20 years of my life away from me. Whenever I see these traits in others I feel worried for the people who get involved with them. From what I've read from other Posters, they have experience either through a relationship with a person like this or they studied personality disorders.

This post is to explain my opinion. In other posts, I wrote about my compassion for Ashley, like you have for Sam. You would probably strongly disagree with my opinion of her!

Edited February 26, 2016 by Meliss

[Madding crowd]

Sam did apologize and own up to her behavior with Neil. Ashley did not acknowledge or apologize to David. That makes a difference to me.

[Meliss]

Sam did apologize and own up to her behavior with Neil. Ashley did not acknowledge or apologize to David. That makes a difference to me.

I will agree to disagree. I'm not bringing up the Ashley thing again--it's one of those "beating a dead horse" topics that Drogo posted about in the spoiler thread!! Edited February 26, 2016 by Meliss

[nutella fitzgerald]

I have been watching this on A&E and I had no idea it was offered on another network in a longer format with an aftershow. I didn't know what people were talking about when they mentioned the Jamie interviews. I thought maybe they were watching this online or something. Thank you for the posts clarifying this, although I still don't know what FYI is. Maybe I don't get that in my area? Kind of annoying that all viewers are not getting the same experience. I feel kind of left out LOL.

I watch it On Demand on FYI and there, The Jamie Diaries are offered as separate extras. I choose not to watch those to make clear to TPTB that the advertisers for those aren't getting any nutella fitzgerald face time.

[WichitaStateShock]

I do think Sam has apologized but I go back and forth with her sincerity of that apology.

My opinion of the girl changes with the wind! lol

[okerry]

Sam did apologize and own up to her behavior with Neil. Ashley did not acknowledge or apologize to David. That makes a difference to me.

Yebbut - Sam apologized after she realized that Decision Day was coming up and Neil had not committed to staying with her. She realized she might get dumped on national TV and that's when she started apologizing and trying to make it up to him.

 

One of the hallmarks of a narcissist is that they'll cry and get emotional for themselves, but not for anyone else. She treats Neil like dirt and has zero sympathy for him, but gets upset when she finally gets the same treatment. The term, "They can dish it out but they can't take it," is 100% a description of a narcissistic bully.

[Madding crowd]

This is a short time period, but no Sam apologized before the last day. It is true that they have had only six weeks, but she apologized and was making an effort a couple of weeks before decision day. If you watched the last couple of episodes, Sam has been trying. Sam and Neil moved into a house together and they have been getting along ok. Marriage is a serious commitment and I will not fault Neil if he decides to go back to his solitary life, but I think it is wrong to make Sam into some monster when she is trying to do better.

[allthelight]

That's true (the second sentence). Not making any excuses for her, but she came around during that Jewish meal cooking, and that was well ahead of decision day or any feedback from social media. So I think a part of her was/is truly sorry. Doesn't mean she's completely changed and doesn't mean she deserves a second chance.

[qtpye]

This is a short time period, but no Sam apologized before the last day. It is true that they have had only six weeks, but she apologized and was making an effort a couple of weeks before decision day. If you watched the last couple of episodes, Sam has been trying. Sam and Neil moved into a house together and they have been getting along ok. Marriage is a serious commitment and I will not fault Neil if he decides to go back to his solitary life, but I think it is wrong to make Sam into some monster when she is trying to do better.

 

 

I am not a Sam fan, but for the record, I think she is better then Ashley.  At least Sam tried...in her boorish off putting way.

 

However, Neil should not stay around someone who is so abusive and unaware of her own actions.  This really could be a good lesson for Sam on how to treat people.

 

The truth is, I never believed they were a good match, so most of the blame should go on the experts.

[Madding crowd]

I agree they probably weren't a good match. I really would be interested in hearing how the experts determine who is or isn't a good match. I don't think you can match people based on their flaws or on negative things that happen in their lives; you can't build off something negative. It seems like it would make more sense to build off things like shared interest, desire on having or not having kids, religious belief, homebody or person who likes going out a lot. Of course, some people are just not compatable.

In real life, I doubt if I would have ever been matched with my husband of 21 years. We have and had a lot of differences, but somehow it works. This was my first year watching this show and my interest was more in watching people negotiate living with and marrying a complete stranger. I don't have any real investment in the outcomes or labeling people I don't know. I did find myself getting mad at Ashely, but only because I wanted to hear her apologize to David. But I do realize we don't see everything that happens and this is a crazy and unrealistic concept to begin with.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Madding crowd

[zxy556575]

I really would be interested in hearing how the experts determine who is or isn't a good match.

 

It might be an unpopular opinion, but I really enjoy the casting episode and would love more in-depth info on the "instruments" themselves as well as detailed explanations of the matches. "They were both bullied" is such a crock! I think the experts are both ill-prepared and ill-used by the producers, but surely there must be reasons beyond the ridiculous sound bites we're given.

 

If I remember correctly, both Sam and Neil were matched because of their quirkiness and I think also their slightly traditional idea of marriage.

 

Which is ridiculous, right? Neil is a self-contained hipster with a very dry sense of humor while Sam pulls faces and acts the fool. Those are entirely different "quirks."

Edited February 26, 2016 by lordonia

[Aethera]

Hi folks - some seem to have realized it, but just to clarify - this is the Episode thread for only Final Decision Pt. 1. I know Amazon screwed up and posted both halves, but many did not get to see Final Decision Pt. 2 yet, so please be careful not to spoil things. If you can't remember which half something happened in, just don't mention it, or use a spoiler tag.