S06.E08: Season 6, Episode 8

[helenamonster]

I find it interesting that "Gosford Park" seemed to have been tightly plotted while Downtown was all over the place--pretty poorly written in fact. I watched it without commitment, and I am someone who bought the DVD of Gosford because I loved it so much.

 

I'm not defending Fellowes's recent writing for this show, but writing for television is very different than writing for film. Assuming a movie is not part of a series or franchise, you condense your story to two hours and do countless rewrites until it finally goes into production, sometimes even while it's in production. But the story is contained and easier to manage. Television is open-ended. A show could only get one season or go on for ten. Actors don't renew contracts. Budgets get slashed. It's a more unpredictable medium and cannot be contained the way a film can. I'm not excusing Fellowes's writing...he knew this was the last season going in and yet his pacing has been remarkably dreadful, even for him, but to compare the writing for a film and a TV show isn't usually fair.

 

For George's sake I hope Mary made it clear that she would not pay for Henry's racing cars etc. Also that George will not get into car racing and off himself the way Matthew did.

 

The thing is Matthew wasn't racing when he died. Yeah, he was going a little fast, but I think a thin road and a blind curve were more of a problem. Mary's fears about Henry seem very particular to the era, when cars were still relatively new and not as common as they are today. Mary's husband died in what is considered nowadays to be a common occurrence (a quick Google search tells me an average of 92 people died in car accidents each day in the US in 2012), but to her is an anomaly. I'm sure everyone on this thread has either been involved with a car accident, witnessed one, or knows someone who has been involved with one. Mary linking the two is expected, but for us there is a difference between a man who gets in a car to go to work every day and a man who drives a car at 200 mph for work every day. By the time George is old enough to drive, cars will be much more popular. I could believe that Mary would definitely forbid George from getting into racing, but I could also see her forbidding him from driving in general. To her, the two are the same, but to him they probably won't be.

 

Does anyone remember if Henry ever met George?

 

I don't think so. Ugh, this show.

 

I still haven't adjusted to the British pronunciation of valet.

 

I pretend they're two different words. A valet is someone who dresses a rich, able-bodied British man. A valet (pronounced val-ey) is someone who parks your car for you at the restaurant. (I know this was not the case then but it helps me lol).

 

During the whole "House of Ill Repute" storyline, all I could hear was Mrs. Patmore's own voice in my head. Does she look like a frolicker???

[nara]

I think that Mary's caustic dig was a low blow, because she meant it to be, and Robert took it that way.  But at the same time, it is also true that Thomas has been targeted for the previous episodes this season when no one else has.  Of course Robert nor Carson knew Thomas was suicidal, and it is true that his reasons for killing himself were multiple.  However, his employment situation was a big part of his decision; he had gotten the latest rejection letter that same morning.  And Baxter did recognize that catalyst when told by Molesley what he had said.  I do find it odd that Robert has recently expressed gratitude for servants' loyalty -- William, Hughes and Carson, Patmore -- but doesn't extend that to Thomas who saved his daughter from a fire and helped find Isis, for all he knows.  As others have mentioned, he has more seniority than Andrew or Molesley, or Bates.  Why target him?  I know, he has an obsolete job description and is disliked, and the family can hire and fire at will and all that, but actions have consequences and Robert and Carson's recent efforts had an unforeseen result that I think both of them were shown to regret.  I'll have to re-watch their reactions.

In addition to Thomas's accumulated crimes and obnoxious behavior, weren't they (Robert and Carson) under the impression that he wanted to leave Downton and become a butler somewhere? I got the impression that they were encouraging someone who wanted to leave to do so.

  

Lol honestly. Especially considering how important something like that was to her last season.

I thought the premarital sex was only important with the previous suitor because Mary's gut was telling her that there was no chemistry between them and she was trying to convince herself that there was. In Henry's case she felt the sexual attraction (even though none of us seemed to see it) so there was no need to test drive him.

[AndySmith]

Actors don't renew contracts.

 

Which is something this show has had to deal with...and not always dealt with well.

 

even though none of us seemed to see it

 

I thought the actors had nice chemistry.

Edited February 24, 2016 by AndySmith

[Andorra]

Why they bothered to bring Tom back is a complete mystery to me. He never even mentions America. He was in Boston, right? With its giant Irish community? And yet he never even makes an offhand remark about driving on the "wrong" side of the road or Sybbie missing her friends or anything. It's like he got mindwiped by Doctor Who.

 

He was only gone for a little over 3 months (he left in January 1925 and came back in March or April). The crossing alone took about 3 weeks each way. So all he did in Boston was having a longer vacation. Sybbie wouldn't have the time to make "friends".

 

The whole storyline to send him to Boston doesn't make any sense in retrospect. They should have left him in England, then give him a new love plus some interest and job (preferably in politics as he always wanted) and THEN at the end of  S6 he should have left. That would have been a good and satisfying storyline for him. As it is, he got nothing. 

[Roseanna]

I liked how Cora was such the cautious pragmatist to Robert's excited kid. "Yippee! Edith is going to be a marchioness! Who woulda thunk it!" And Cora is the realist trying to, to borrow a phrase from Violet, ration her excitement. "Take a chill pill, she's not married YET."

When you think about it, if both Robert and Cora were living up to the cultural norms that the show always reminds us of, then Cora the American would have been jumping up and down with glee while Robert the reserved Englishman would have had a cautiously positive response.

 

I think that that basic difference was about their different moral values. Robert was glad that Edith would get a title (and he a titled son-in-law) but Cora was concerned about Edith's happiness. Of course Robert spoke of Edith's happiness too, but he didn't care if she didn't tell the truth to Bertie, whereas Cora was concerned that Edith wouldn't be happy if her secret shadowed her marriage. Thus, to Robert the outer things mattered most, whereas Cora represented the inner qualities. 

[Roseanna]

I thought the premarital sex was only important with the previous suitor because Mary's gut was telling her that there was no chemistry between them and she was trying to convince herself that there was. In Henry's case she felt the sexual attraction (even though none of us seemed to see it) so there was no need to test drive him.

 

I don't think that the problem with Gillingham was bad sex although we never saw sex as it isn't DA'habit. Instead, Blake warned Mary beforehand that he was less intelligent than she, in the hotel he showed to be predictable which Mary didn't like, and afterwards Mary said that something like that now she saw him clearly (as there was no more sexual tension). "Post coitum omne animal triste est"?

 

Considering this, Mary should definitively have a long test drive (maybe a year or two) with Henry in order to try if there was anything but sex between them. What she spoke to Tom wasn't all nonsense: couples could no more lead separate lives but had to spend more time together, that is they have to prosped together also outside the bed.

[AndySmith]

then give him a new love plus some interest and job (preferably in politics as he always wanted)

 

Hell he could have been writing columns for Edith's publication.

[Roseanna]

Hell he could have been writing columns for Edith's publication.

 

Wasn't it a woman's paper that published society news? At least that's what we see in the night when Edith "edited" the issue. 

 

Edith's first column was about the soldiers who had problems to find a job, though. In that kind of paper Tom could have written about workers' condition and Ireland.

 

Instead, Fellowes chose to present us an "agony aunt" whose advice sounded rather sexist. Of course they were "right" considering the period, but could a single modern woman like Laura really liked the idea?    

[albaniantv]

Loved Thomas and Mary's scene where they both revealed the same weakness. So, perhaps Mary will reward that and give him a job in her own household: valet/nanny/driver. George does seem to care for him...wasn't that his first spoken line?

 

And maybe Carson's bile is due to a physical complaint and he will have to retire? Mrs. Hughes should retire too and help Mrs. Patmore run the B&B.

 

Fellowes has a whole two hours left to put folks together and asunder. I can't wait!

[AndySmith]

It could be based on the real Sketch magazine, which was a society magazine. Of course, there is no real reason Edith couldn't approve an article by Tom every once in a while, in order to help his career if he had wanted it.

[txhorns79]

As far as I'm concerned she was totally hiding out there.

 

I did appreciate that Mary seemed to realize she was in deep, and needed to hide after what she had done. 

 

 

I'm curious as to what would happen if Robert dies before Violet does. Would there be 2 Dowager Countesses, or would Cora remain the Countess until George marries?

 

My understanding of these titles is that the official title passes on when the hereditary title holder dies, so Cora would no longer officially be Countess, even if there was no new Countess to take her place.  For example, when King Edward took the throne in 1936, he was unmarried, but his mother did not remain Queen.  My guess would be if Violet were still alive, they would just give Cora a different title to denote her now honorary position.  The only example of this I could think of off hand would be when Queen Elizabeth had her coronation, both her mother and grandmother were still alive.  I think both the former Queen Elizabeth and Mary just went by slightly different titles at that point.     

Edited February 24, 2016 by txhorns79

[Andorra]

 

Edith's first column was about the soldiers who had problems to find a job, though. In that kind of paper Tom could have written about workers' condition and Ireland.

 

Instead, Fellowes chose to present us an "agony aunt" whose advice sounded rather sexist. Of course they were "right" considering the period, but could a single modern woman like Laura really liked the idea?  

 

I SO agree! How silly was it to make Spratt the column writer? And how much more sense would it have made to make Tom the surprise?? 

 

I also hated the sexist column. How funny (not) "My husband doesn't like me anymore." Answer "have you looked into the mirror lately". Hahaha, Fellowes. Yikes.

 

There were so many lost opportunities when it comes to Tom. So many things got started and were never developed. He was an Irish republican, but when Ireland became a free state, he never mentioned it. He never mentioned the treaty either. He was a journalist, but when Edith became a writer, she announced "we have a journalist in the family" and no one commented that they already had a journalist in the family before!

He started to get reinterested in politics, Isobel even told him to think about going for an office in the local politics, but of course it was dropped the next episode and never mentioned again.

Edith inherited a newspaper, she had her problems with her editor, but of course Tom didn't even once comment or talk with her or offer help or whatever. Nothing.

 

And then in season 6 he is obsessed with cars all the sudden. He didn't want to go back to working with cars. Sybil didn't want him to go back working with cars. He refused the job in his brother's business, because he didn't want to work as a mechanic again. But cars are his only passion (besides Henry) in season 6. 

 

RIDICULOUS!!

Edited February 24, 2016 by Andorra

[Roseanna]

It could be based on the real Sketch magazine, which was a society magazine. Of course, there is no real reason Edith couldn't approve an article by Tom every once in a while, in order to help his career if he had wanted it.

 

Wouldn't it be a real reason enough that the readers of the society magazine wouldn't be interested in the topics Tom would like to write? It's not good business sense to publish something simply for friendship.

 

But as I said, Fellowes could have easily made Edith's magazine to such that Tom could fit in its profile. Or at least let Edith help Tom's career by introducing him to other editors.  

[BetyBee]

I hated how everyone laughed at hard-working, loyal Mrs. Patmore's situation.  I can only conclude that Fellowes' real life lousy sense of humor was on full display for all of us.

 

I've always been struck by how my mother-in-law's situation paralleled Marigold's. My mil was born out of wedlock in 1922 and was never adopted. Rather her mother couldn't completely give her up and fostered her out to a farm family.  It meant a life of hard work and coldness for mil.  The farm couple was old and did not fawn over her as Mrs. Drewes did over Marigold, but otherwise, the situation was similar.  Each summer mil would live with her bio-mom and have more love and warmth (and indoor plumbing), then have to give it up anew each fall.  It was a very difficult life. She did not learn of her illegitimacy until she was in her 30s, but she did not live a lifetime of rejection in society either. Of course this was in America, but I think Marigold would have fared well with the Crawleys and she certainly would have a better education and prospects than with the Drewes.  On the other hand, like my mil, she probably would have fared best emotionally had she stayed with the original adoptive family. I am an Edith fan and I understand how hard it was to give up her child, but it would have been the kindest thing she could have done for her daughter. 

 

I don't think Fellowes has sold us at all on the OTP of Mary and Henry.  Not buying it!  I do believe that Edith and Bertie are well suited and I hope there is a happy ending in store for them in the CS. 

 

I love Mrs. Hughes, but her "curmudgeon" can pound sand.  He's a nasty snob and himself may be lacking the heart he assumed that Thomas lacked. 

 

The Dowager advising Mary to marry for love?  I'm not buying that either.  I would have bought it if Violet had advised her that a handsome 2nd husband would be fine since she already has produced an heir, that it was okay to lower her high and mighty sights at this point in her life.

 

I'm happy for Moesley.  That character development actually worked!  Unlike poor Tom's non-existent development.  He exists only to admire wondrous Mary and to help her to find "happiness" (not buying it, Fellowes!) with Henry, who has suddenly become right for her.  And why such a quick wedding? That just made no sense.  Tom should certainly have a suitable love interest by now.

[Roseanna]

IThere were so many lost opportunities when it comes to Tom. So many things got started and were never developed. He was an Irish republican, but when Ireland became a free state, he never mentioned it. He never mentioned the treaty either. He was a journalist, but when Edith became a writer, she announced "we have a journalist in the family" and no one commented that they already had a journalist in the family before!

He started to get reinterested in politics, Isobel even told him to think about going for an office in the local politics, but of course it was dropped the next episode and never mentioned again.

Edith inherited a newspaper, she had her problems with her editor, but of course Tom didn't even once comment or talk with her or offer help or whatever. Nothing.

 

And then in season 6 he is obsessed with cars all the sudden. He didn't want to go back to working with cars. Sybil didn't want him to go back working with cars. He refused the job in his brother's business, because he didn't want to work as a mechanic again. But cars are his only passion (besides Henry) in season 6. 

 

RIDICULOUS!!

 

I agree in all this. 

 

It would have been quite natural that Tom would have somehow helped Edith, at least with his advice. But Tom's role was narrowed down in S6. Before he had scenes also Robert, Cora, Edith, Violet, Isobel and Mrs Hughes, not to speak of Edna and Miss Bunter, now almost only with Mary and Henry. 

 

Well, his scene with Lady Sinderby in CS was great, as she was interested in his feelings which seemed all the more moving because he is usually so reserved to show them. and at the same  At the same the scene showed again how different Atticus's mother was than his bigot father.

 

Before all, a journalist is a really good profession in order to get a character in different situations. So even if Tom had worked in Yorkshire, there could have been interesting plots and thereby we would have had a wider look on the region. Of course that would have cost money, but didn't two car racing scenes cost much more?

[Roseanna]

I think Marigold would have fared well with the Crawleys and she certainly would have a better education and prospects than with the Drewes.  On the other hand, like my mil, she probably would have fared best emotionally had she stayed with the original adoptive family. I am an Edith fan and I understand how hard it was to give up her child, but it would have been the kindest thing she could have done for her daughter. 

 

That's quite true from today's perspective, but one didn't know then how a child experiences the separation of her "primary caretaker" which Marigold has now experienced three times.      

[AndySmith]

Wouldn't it be a real reason enough that the readers of the society magazine wouldn't be interested in the topics Tom would like to write?

 

Not necessarily. I said published once in a while. And given Edith's nature, it wouldn't be surprising if she did try and include something like that every once in a while.

 

Besides, we're not 100% sure exactly what the magazine is about. We're just speculating.

[Llywela]

My understanding of these titles is that the official title passes on when the hereditary title holder dies, so Cora would no longer officially be Countess, even if there was no new Countess to take her place.  For example, when King Edward took the throne in 1936, he was unmarried, but his mother did not remain Queen.  My guess would be if Violet were still alive, they would just give Cora a different title to denote her now honorary position.  The only example of this I could think of off hand would be when Queen Elizabeth had her coronation, both her mother and grandmother were still alive.  I think both the former Queen Elizabeth and Mary just went by slightly different titles at that point.     

In that situation, both Violet and Cora would officially hold the title 'Dowager Countess', but would probably agree to use slightly different modes of address in order to differentiate between them.

[txhorns79]

Wouldn't it be a real reason enough that the readers of the society magazine wouldn't be interested in the topics Tom would like to write? It's not good business sense to publish something simply for friendship.

 

You'd be surprised at the power of nepotism to override good judgment.  However, I'd agree that if the magazine was more about the goings on of society, it would be less likely Edith would throw in a random article by Tom that was about something completely different. 

 

 

I'm happy for Moesley.  That character development actually worked!  Unlike poor Tom's non-existent development.  He exists only to admire wondrous Mary and to help her to find "happiness" (not buying it, Fellowes!)

 

I could understand Tom encouraging Mary to be happy, but I did not understand his weirdly singular focus on bringing Mary and Henry together.  The only way it would make sense for me at this point is if we found out Tom and Henry made some kind of side deal to get at the family money.  To me, Tom was way more into the relationship than Mary ever was.   

[millennium]

This episode was like a prolonged exercise in date rape -- no matter how many times Mary said no, she was told that she really meant yes, until at last she stopped struggling and succumbed to the advances of those forcing themselves upon her.   My skin crawled when Speed Racer called her "darling" in that voice thick with triumph.   

 

The only explanation I have for Branson's preposterous behavior is that he has latent gay desires for Henry and is living vicariously through Mary.

 

Not that Mary deserves to be happy.   In fact, shame on Matthew for not poking a skeletal hand through the dirt to grab Mary's ankle and drag her down to hell for the way she treated Edith.

 

Not that Edith deserves to be happy, either   Lady Liar.   By lying about Marigold -- in essence, denying her own child -- she only legitimizes society's self-righteous judgments, and for what?  Her desperate need to be loved?   Bertie should have dismissed her not on the basis of being untrustworthy, but because she's too damn pathetic.

 

Shame on Robert and Cora for raising such a cruel and bitter harpy as Mary, then standing about and clucking their tongues as she wreaks havoc upon fellow family members.   Their biggest complaint about Mary's hateful behavior is that it doesn't seem very sporting of her. 

 

It was sporting of Barrow to bleed at such a leisurely pace.   And so neatly, too.   Why, I'd be surprised if he left as much as  a bathtub ring.   Maybe everyone should open a vein once in awhile.  It saved his job, probably even got him a raise. 

 

I didn't like this episode.    It felt hurried and ill-conceived.   That, and Mary's starting to look like a scary store mannequin. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by millennium

[jschoolgirl]

I did appreciate that Mary seemed to realize she was in deep, and needed to hide after what she had done. 

 

My understanding of these titles is that the official title passes on when the hereditary title holder dies, so Cora would no longer officially be Countess, even if there was no new Countess to take her place.  For example, when King Edward took the throne in 1936, he was unmarried, but his mother did not remain Queen.  My guess would be if Violet were still alive, they would just give Cora a different title to denote her now honorary position.  The only example of this I could think of off hand would be when Queen Elizabeth had her coronation, both her mother and grandmother were still alive.  I think both the former Queen Elizabeth and Mary just went by slightly different titles at that point.

When Edward VIII became king upon the death of his father George V, Queen Mary became known as the Dowager Queen. After the abdication and the accession of George VI to the throne, his wife became Queen Elizabeth. She in turn became known as the Queen Mother upon the accession of her daughter, Elizabeth II. Queen Mary was still alive. So titles can be styled to fit the circumstances.

[Llywela]

That, and Mary's starting to look like a scary store mannequin. 

Michelle Dockery's fiance became terminally ill during the filming of this season - that probably contributed to her wraith-like appearance.

[Roseanna]

Not that Mary deserves to be happy.   In fact, shame on Matthew for not poking a skeletal hand through the dirt to grab Mary's ankle and drag her down to hell for the way she treated Edith.

 

Not that Edith deserves to be happy, either   Lady Liar.   By lying about Marigold -- in essence, denying her own child -- she only legitimizes society's self-righteous judgments, and for what?  Her desperate need to be loved?   Bertie should have dismissed her not on the basis of being untrustworthy, but because she's too damn pathetic.

 

Are people irl happy because they "deserve" it?

 

In DA Lavinia never did anything bad to anybody (save stole save documents but she did it to save her father), but instead of getting happily married and having children she died with a broken heart. Despite all her sweetness and kindness Matthew loved Mary more and if they had married, that would no doubt soured her happiness.  

[Roseanna]

Somebody said above that Fellowes failed with Henry and Mary because Henry was given too little screen time. But Bertie wasn't given any more. 

 

Other reason had been mentioned and they are all valid: Henry and Mary were rarely alone, Tom and the others explained to us what Mary felt, Henry's character wasn't made clear, his creepy and stalking behavior, there was no real obstracle and when it was mentioned in Mary's discussion with Violet, it wasn't solved with her discussion with Henry before they became engaged etc.

 

I think there are one reason more: Fellowes clearly tried to do what Jane Austen did in Sense and Sensiblity: to give the sisters a romance of different kind that described their different characters. And indeed that aim is shown from CS on in every episode. 

 

Bertie is an ordinary, unassuming quy. From the beginning we know his profession. He and Edith talk like normal people who want to know each other and they get to know better through her work and when he tells her about his cousin. Their romance is sweet and tender and, most of all, feels natural.

 

Instead Henry is supposed to be an exciting quy and their romance is supposed to be fiery. In CS we don't know anything about him, f.ex. not his profession. Mary behaves rudely towards him although he hasn't done anything wrong knowingly - and we are supposed to think he falls for this ice queens. Then there are a couple scenes where they flirt - and we are supposed to think that because for the first time makes an initiative, she has fallen hard for him - although it could also be just the contrary: because it's only a fling, she can "openly" show her interest.

 

Especially the proposal scenes are opposite: Bertie is humble, Henry is demanding, Bertie gives Edith time to ponder, Henry insists that Mary accepts on the evening after they saw his friend die. 

 

The same difference is this episode: Henry and Mary quarrel and insult each other. Bertie and Edith are polite towards each other even in their farewell scene and wish each other good luck in the future. Now, it wasn't wrong in itself from Fellowes to write a lover's quarrel - but Tom and Mary's quarrel was more that.

 

Before all, when Bertie and Edith keep their distance in the farewell scene, there is no doubt that they love each other still and there is at least one moment where Bertie clearly wavers in his decision to leave. Compared with this, the so called reconciliation scene between Henry and Mary is flat. They say their lines and that's it.

 

Yet, in S2 we saw many times that Mary still loved Mathew - so Dockery can present repressed feelings. But then she was with the kind, tender, warn, decent Matthew who brought in her softness. 

 

However, Henry could not be kind, tender, warm and decent because those qualities were already "reserved" to Bertie (and Tom). Henry was left to be a tall, dark, mysterious, cool stranger - but without Rhett Butler's sense of humor, not speak of his inner warmth that shone through whatever he behaved or pretended.               

Edited February 24, 2016 by Roseanna

[Constantinople]

Not necessarily. I said published once in a while. And given Edith's nature, it wouldn't be surprising if she did try and include something like that every once in a while.

 

Besides, we're not 100% sure exactly what the magazine is about. We're just speculating.

I think the magazine is about whatever the episode or the season requires. The magazine seemed more political in Season 3. Now it seems more like a society magazine. Sort of like Blake. He started out as a Labor leaning technocrat and ended up a metrosexual whose favorite pastime is attending fashion shows. For that matter, Tom, the Socialist Fenian sympathizing chauffeur who supported the overthrow of the Russian czar, now wants nothing more than to watch the 40th in line to the Earldom of Shrewsbury race cars.

[kassa]

The Dowager advising Mary to marry for love?  I'm not buying that either.  I would have bought it if Violet had advised her that a handsome 2nd husband would be fine since she already has produced an heir, that it was okay to lower her high and mighty sights at this point in her life.

 

 

I can buy it, but agree that the second part plays into it.  Violet chose duty over love herself, and then watched her son happy in his marriage (which might not have been for love but certainly flourished in it).  She's watched 70-something years of other people's relationships come and go, and probably has a pretty good handle on what makes a good match, especially when it comes to someone who's probably a bit more like her than she likes to think. Probably an even better handle on what makes a BAD match, and knows the misery that comes along with that sort of thing.

 

When Edward VIII became king upon the death of his father George V, Queen Mary became known as the Dowager Queen. After the abdication and the accession of George VI to the throne, his wife became Queen Elizabeth. She in turn became known as the Queen Mother upon the accession of her daughter, Elizabeth II.

 

 

The title "Queen Mother" was invented because of the duplication of names.  Had the current Queen's sister been older, we would have had a Queen Margaret, a Queen Elizabeth, and a Queen Mary at the same time.  

 

As far as salacious possibilities for "Who Inherits Should Something Happen to George" my vote goes to Peter Coyle. That's got to be endgame, right?  I mean, otherwise, what was the point?  

[blackwing]

Was that Sybil's grave?  They focused on it so long I thought I was supposed to recognize it but I could not read the name.

Yes.  It said "Sybil Cora Branson" and then something like "The Dau. of the __ [couldn't read the number) Earl of Grantham" and then the years of her birth and death.

[proserpina65]

Whatever one might think of Tom's storyline (or lack thereof) this season, you must admit that Allen Leech was terrific in the breakfast scene.

[JudyObscure]

Mansfield Park was dreadful. Don't get me started. Miss Bates wasn't engaged to the Marquess. I think Mary could be happy with Tom or Henry but she won't be gaga over any second husband.

Miss Bates wasn't engaged to the Marquess, but Edith had only been engaged for a few minutes and Mary had sneered and ridiculed her all her life.  Knightly's famous, "Badly done, Emma, badly done," applied perfectly because Emma, like Mary, was not only guilty of being cruel, but being cruel to someone who had never enjoyed the same advantages.  Mary has been favored by her family and servants from the time she was a child and as they grew, it became clear that outsiders also thought Mary was more beautiful and desirable than Edith.

 

 These were reasons why any sister with a heart would have been going out of her way to help the less beautiful one find love and happiness, not as with Sir Anthony in the first episode, going out of her way to prove that even though every other man at the party was hanging on Mary's every word, she could take away the one man who was showing a bit of interest in Edith. 

 

"Mary and Edith," was never really a case of rivals in competition, but a case of one who had been dealt all the good cards lording it over the other.

 

But then  "Mansfield Park," is my favorite Austen so clearly we vary.

[proserpina65]

Isn't this just a proxy argument about Mary sucking and Edith being awesome?

Are you refering to Roseanna's post about the respective courtships which immediately precedes yours?  Because no, that isn't the case at all.  She's talking about the structure of the two relationships, and how the quality of the writing lets Mary/Henry down badly, imo.  That courtship could've been interesting and believable if Fellowes' had written it better or, at the very least, let it play out over the course of the whole season rather than in just the last two or three episodes.  Had there been more scenes of Mary and Henry together without other people, giving them a chance to talk about the things which mattered most to them, maybe I'd have been able to buy them as a couple.  But as written and presented, it just didn't work for me at all.  Of course it didn't help that I saw no discernable chemistry between the two actors.

Edited February 24, 2016 by proserpina65

[SusanSunflower]

Emma's cruel remark to Miss Bates also demonstrated her foolishness in trying to impress the (odious or dubious) Frank Churchill with her bold wit ... 

Emma assumed Knightly disliked Churchill because of he fancied Jane Fairfax and saw Frank as a rival (much as Emma saw Jane as HER rival for Frank) ... 

In fact, Knightley disliked Churchill for publically embarrassing Jane by flirting so openly with Emma, and his influence on Emma, who he cared for long before he recognized his love for. Jane was never Emma's rival for Frank (because she was Frank's secret fiancé), nor was she ever Emma's rival for Knightly ...  Emma would/could never admit to Jane's superior artistic talents ... or her jealously thereof. 

Emma is among the most unreliable narrators EVER ... and that's much of the charm of repeated readings ... Her bold confidence in her (mostly entirely misguided) opinions is revealed as the stories unfold ... 

Edited February 24, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[whatsatool]

Besides, we're not 100% sure exactly what the magazine is about. We're just speculating.

Lol

Whatever one might think of Tom's storyline (or lack thereof) this season, you must admit that Allen Leech was terrific in the breakfast scene.

But not as great as Mr. Knightly in the hedges. Edited February 24, 2016 by whatsatool

[txhorns79]

She's talking about the structure of the two relationships, and how the quality of the writing lets Mary/Henry down badly, imo.

 

I think that's entirely right.  We saw this in the episode.  You see a bunch of people telling Mary over and over what she supposedly is feeling without any real suggestion from the acting or writing of couple that what she is being told is true.

 

It has nothing to really do with one character "sucking," while the other is great.   It's about just about poor writing and a lack of chemistry between actors. 

[Roseanna]

This has bothered me for years, WHY did JF bother making Thomas gay when he did nothing with it? What was the point? Since he was unwilling to give the character romance and wasn't truly dedicated to making him evil, TB took up completely useless space in the series.

 

Fellowes did something ​with Thomas' sexual orientation:

- Thomas had had a relationship with a duke and that had been so serious and/or ardent that the duke had written him several letters - Thomas believed that duke would take him in his service and was extremely disappointed when he didn't which could be one of the reason why he wanted to revenge the world, or at least people who were more fortunate

- Thomas made a pass to Pamuk who refused and pressured him to show Mary's  room

- Thomas made a pass to Jimmy and nearly got to prison for it 

- Thomas tried to make himself "healthy"

- Thomas friendship with Andy was suspected

- several characters' attitude towards gays was treated and with the exception of Carson it was even unlikely permissive at that time

 

However, it's true that Thomas never got a romance, but how likely it would be in Downton where the servants lived under constant supervision (cf. Ethel's affair with Mahor Bryant was quickly discovered and she was fired). For that he should have moved to London or New York where could have real chances to meet a lover.

 

It's true that there was never real clarification why Thomas made evil deeds - but is there irl?

Edited February 24, 2016 by Roseanna

[shipperx]

Isn't this just a proxy argument about Mary sucking and Edith being awesome?

I didn't take it as such. I took it as the author said she intended it --as an Austen Sense and Sensibilty comparison. In that book the sisters and their romances portray different sorts of romances (rewatched the Emma Thompson version recently, boy was Hugh Grant a boring drip in it.). Anyway, bookwise, both romances were intended to work (albeit with a bit of slight of hand). It wasn't just one sister triumphing by comparison (interpret triumph however you would like).

Mary can and has had successful romance (see: Matthew), but this romance hasn't worked for many viewers, including some decided Mary partisans. It is not simply a case of people who don't much care for Mary being I unpersuaded. Some unabashed Mary fans have had problems with it, also.

I personally think that part of the issue is that Talbot hasn't been developed very much as a character. But that's just my opinion.

It's not inherently a problem to have a cool romantic lead (which is what Mary and Talbot appear to be intended as). It's that this romance didn't quite gel for many viewers --including many Mary fans.

I was trying to think of a comparison and thought of Katherine Hepburn's 'ice goddess' in The Philadelphia Story, but when I thought of that I realized that parallel may have been what Fellowes was striving for with Blake and Gillingham ( pick who is Cary Grant and who is Jimmy Stewart).

Honestly since Dockery was successful in the Mary Matthew romance I tend to think most of the hiccups are due to writing. I usually assume she's giving the performance she is intended to give.

Edited February 25, 2016 by shipperx

[SusanSunflower]

Who knows?  I recall several Downton actors saying they were NEVER told in advance what their character's story arc was meant to be ... each episode script was delivered and filmed "leaving all options open"  -- I can only imagine this as another of Fellowes' conceits that it would be more "spontaneous" or natural ...blah blah blah... as I've said, I thought there was too little tete-a-tete between Mary and Henry and too many scenes filmed too-far-back making telegraphed "attraction" and/or "affection" simply invisible. I'm guessing that the directors and cinematographers, etc. are similarly flying blind wrt to where the story ends up.  

 

I attribute this to Julian's massive ego and games playing -- even Rowling's confided in Rickman about Snape and Rickman somehow managed to keep the secret. Fellowes apparently believes that his cast cannot be trusted ... or refuses to close the door to fiddling with the story in the next script. 

 

ETA: I think Fellowes also really really wanted us to see that Henry was not Matthew, Carlisle, Tony or Charles ... that not only did he not immediately fall in love with Mary ... but that Mary wanted-him-enough that she had to compromise ... we've watched her reject so many men ... there really needed (no matter how contrived) some exposition as to how  this time, this outcome with Henry was different ... 

Edited February 24, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

Are you refering to Roseanna's post about the respective courtships which immediately precedes yours?  Because no, that isn't the case at all.  She's talking about the structure of the two relationships, and how the quality of the writing lets Mary/Henry down badly, imo. 

 

That was exactly my intention.

 

As I said, Henry and Bertie had to be opposites as Mary and Edith's romances had to be opposites. But Henry could have been interesting, even if he was outwardly cool, if he had had Rhett Butlers' sense of humor and inner warmth. And there must have been scenes where we would see what kind of man he really is. 

 

I think that Emma Thompson's screenplay in Sense and sensibility is a good example how such dull characters like Edward Ferrars and Colonel Brandon could be made interesting and popular with a few good scenes. And of course the actors were just the right ones.   

[peggy06]

Loved Thomas and Mary's scene where they both revealed the same weakness. So, perhaps Mary will reward that and give him a job in her own household: valet/nanny/driver. George does seem to care for him...wasn't that his first spoken line?

That really was a good scene. I remember when watching I thought "Mary did the same thing that Thomas did to Gwen," only it was on a much bigger scale with more serious consequences, and to a family member.

[Alonzo Mosely FBI]

Stopping by again to read and mention my admiration of the Dowager Countess using the term "hotfoot" . Also in the scene where Bertie walks away from Edith with the Abbey in the back ground and Edith's peach tie flutters in the breeze. Both, GOLD.

[Roseanna]

Emma is among the most unreliable narrators EVER ... and that's much of the charm of repeated readings ... Her bold confidence in her (mostly entirely misguided) opinions is revealed as the stories unfold ... 

 

Emma is not the narrator although she is the only viewpoint. But we are told enough clues to suspect Emma's conclusions although we hardly can guess f.ex. Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill's secret engagement.

 

She is indeed great fun, but one must remember that because we have only her viewpoint, we can never fully realize the distress she caused to Jane and especially Harriet Smith. I confess I don't really care for Mr Elton's distress for he didn't propose Emma out of love. 

[Roseanna]

ETA: I think Fellowes also really really wanted us to see that Henry was not Matthew, Carlisle, Tony or Charles ... that not only did he not immediately fall in love with Mary ... but that Mary wanted-him-enough that she had to compromise ... we've watched her reject so many men ... there really needed (no matter how contrived) some exposition as to how  this time, this outcome with Henry was different ... 

 

Well, I really believed that Henry fell for Mary in CS - after the same old pattern "Mary is rude and men find that irresistible". And it was Henry who first came Downton uninvited - granted, after months - but why else if he wasn't interested in Mary? Mary ordered two dates but it was Henry who wanted marry her and refused to accept Mary's no.

 

If Fellowes wanted a love story of another kind, why not then write f.ex. "Mary wants to marry Henry but he wants only a fling - until he realizes how wonderful Mary is" 

[caligirl50]

 

Shame on Robert and Cora for raising such a cruel and bitter harpy as Mary, then standing about and clucking their tongues as she wreaks havoc upon fellow family members.   Their biggest complaint about Mary's hateful behavior is that it doesn't seem very sporting of her.

 

I so agree!  Mary has two fathers (Robert and Carson) and two mothers (Cora and Violet) and she still doesn’t know how to act.  And I find it interesting that: a) When Edith was yelling at Mary she said, “Who do you think you are talking to?  Mama?  Your maid?” What was Edith saying about Cora with this comment? And b) whenever things gets rough for Mary, she turns to Carson for advice (once a while Robert) but for the most part, it has been Carson. Her parents seem to lacking in terms of their parenting.

 

In addition, The female producer of the show said during the PBS special that aired the week before the season began that “Mary does appalling things.” Then Michelle Dockery follows that up by saying that she dislikes herself so much she wants to take down everyone around her (paraphrasing here).  If that was in fact Mary’s storyline this season, why wait until the last episode to do it all?  Then five minutes later we are to be happy for her that she is getting married.   In addition, the audience being told that Henry is right for Mary over and over again when there hasn’t been one scene in the entire series that has shown that is kind of nuts. 

[BrianJ62]

The Real Housewives of Downton Abbey. Keeping up with the Crowley's.

[JudyObscure]

I think one reason some of us (well me, at least) can't keep from talking about Edith and Mary here, particularly when Jane Austen enters the mix, is that we can't go to any of the other threads for fear of being spoiled.  I can't wait for the last episode to be over so I can move freely about the board. I have all sorts of Unpolular Opinions stored up.

[helenamonster]

Who knows?  I recall several Downton actors saying they were NEVER told in advance what their character's story arc was meant to be ... each episode script was delivered and filmed "leaving all options open"  -- I can only imagine this as another of Fellowes' conceits that it would be more "spontaneous" or natural ...blah blah blah... as I've said, I thought there was too little tete-a-tete between Mary and Henry and too many scenes filmed too-far-back making telegraphed "attraction" and/or "affection" simply invisible. I'm guessing that the directors and cinematographers, etc. are similarly flying blind wrt to where the story ends up.  

 

I attribute this to Julian's massive ego and games playing -- even Rowling's confided in Rickman about Snape and Rickman somehow managed to keep the secret. Fellowes apparently believes that his cast cannot be trusted ... or refuses to close the door to fiddling with the story in the next script. 

 

This is not atypical on TV. Actors from The Sopranos have talked about flipping straight to the end of scripts to make sure they hadn't been killed off. Matt Weiner only ever talked with Jon Hamm about his character's seasonal arc beforehand on Mad Men, everyone else had to wait for the scripts. The How to Get Away with Murder writers write that show by the seat of their pants so those actors never have a clue where things are going from episode to episode. I'm sure there are various reasons for running a show this way but Downton is by no means the only show to do this.

Edited February 24, 2016 by helenamonster

[kassa]

When Edith was yelling at Mary she said, “Who do you think you are talking to?  Mama?  Your maid?” What was Edith saying about Cora with this comment?

 

Early in the series Mary sneered a few times about Cora being "less than" as an American (she didn't understand the RIGHT way of doing things, etc.).  I don't recall how Cora reacted - I think she just rolled her eyes or shrugged it off, but it was way more dismissive than ever would have gotten by my mother at that age or any other.  

 

If they ever do a prequel with Violet and hubby,  Rosamund and Robert and new bride Cora with young maid Elsie and footman Charlie Carson, I'm going to guess that Cora had it pretty tough, and as the children came along, they absorbed a lot of the disdain that the inlaws and possibly the help had for her. At least Mary.

[Roseanna]

And I find it interesting that: a) When Edith was yelling at Mary she said, “Who do you think you are talking to?  Mama?  Your maid?” What was Edith saying about Cora with this comment?

 

I think Edith may point to Cora's tendency to take people's words at face value (although Edith never saw how how O'Brien manipulated Cora, so how would she know - from her childhood when Mary's words was believed by Cora?). Also Anna often belittled Mary's faults even in situations where Mary did some soul-searching but she was a  servant and had to be think of keeping her job (although she is no doubt very fond of Mary). 

[Roseanna]

In addition, The female producer of the show said during the PBS special that aired the week before the season began that “Mary does appalling things.” Then Michelle Dockery follows that up by saying that she dislikes herself so much she wants to take down everyone around her (paraphrasing here).  If that was in fact Mary’s storyline this season, why wait until the last episode to do it all?  Then five minutes later we are to be happy for her that she is getting married. 

 

That is indeed strange.  What would we think if Elizabeth and Darcy had married after she visited Pemberley, he was polite and she was impressed of his estate. No Lydia's elopment nor Darcy's heroic action by helping her to marry Wickham even if it made him his potential brother-in-law, no Eliabeth's uncertainty of his feelings. The book would be flat. 

 

But nowadays it's not at all seldom like in DA that the lovers doesn't change nor grow. It's enough that they get "a happy end".  

[sandyskyblue]

I also think that Robert got one of the funniest lines when he said that Edith couldn't even get her dolls to do what she wanted when she was growing up.

Agree!  And I giggled when Robert said 'Golly Gumdrops!'  Think I will put that phrase into my repertoire!

[shipperx]

I wasn't particularly perplexed by Edith's line of 'who do you think you're speaking to? Mama". Let's remember the haircut scene last season where Mary told the grieving Edith that Edith 'ruins everything' and Cora's response was... Well she did tell Edith not to be unfair.

And yet I don't think it's about Cora favoritism. I think Cora is used to turning a blind eye to certain behaviors (such as the Mary attitude about Americans). I think that Cora sees herself as a devoted loving mother... And when the girls were growing up she probably left discipline to the Nanny. Cora very simply very rarely put her foot down. Mary probably interprets it as weakness. Edith probably views is as favoritism. It's not probably neither one or the other but a combination of Cora's coping mechanisms + the aristocratic child rearing mores if the time. B

Edited February 25, 2016 by shipperx