S02.E05: Episode 5

[represent]

 

Thank you for clarifying. Man, it amazes me how cruel Leslie gets. It's so hard to swallow. Shake me head. I love this show for being honest and showing how society very much does this.

Her mindset IMO is the mindset of some people in power, like the Governor of Flint, MI. Some of these people in positions of power, they are extremely driven to a fault. I think that their drive, where ever it comes from, becomes dangerous at some point. They'll do anything, allow anything to happen, look the other way, spin it all,  just to protect their power/control/position. They lose their humanity and more often than not, all you end up seeing is their robotic, sinister side. For her, it is definitely control and I think she might have OCD  because I think I've seen twice a close up shot of her obsessively washing her hands, correct me if I'm wrong.  OCD is definitely about trying to maintain control in the sufferer's mind.

Edited February 5, 2016 by represent

[Mom x 3]

They just showed a suicide attempt, so I think that's the extent of that. At least I hope so.

My horrible little mind just went to Coach Dan.  As in he is the Kenny of the series and commits suicide every season.  For some reason that made me chuckle.  

 

[Madding crowd]

This episode made me feel sad and frustrated at the same time. They have an interesting story and I think there is a genuine need to let people know rape can happen to anyone; gay or straight, male or female, rich or poor. I think it is good to also show how being drugged or on drugs can cause the situation to be unclear and that sometimes the true story will never be known.

What I don't need is the level of pretension that both this year and last year had.

 

We didn't need to have the rape acted out in ballet-we understand what is going on. I also don't believe a school with a strong ballet program would also have a basketball team. Plenty of schools have dance groups and theater groups along with sports, but ballet is usually at arts/dancing schools. I also think the type of liberal parents who would appreciate this type of piece don't seem to fit in with the snotty parents at this school. Not to mention that the school would want to put on a production like this when they are in the middle of a scandal involving sexual contact with their students.

 

The actors who are playing Taylor and Eric are doing a great job and my heart breaks for both of them. No young man should have to explain his sexual fantasies and thoughts to adults, especially his mother. I did guess from the first episode that Taylor was interested in Eric, but I think Kevin may be as well. Kevin has to fit into the rape/sex somewhere and he is a main character along with his parents. I would find it a bit hard to believe that all three young men are closeted gay teens who happen to be in the same circle with no one else suspecting/knowing anything but nothing else fits right now. I guess Kevin could also be protective of Eric in a bro way, but I can't see that leading to him drugging or hurting Taylor.

 

I was hoping Taylor would tell Evie he was Bi and that he liked her and liked boys too. I don't know why he told her he wasn't gay-he seems more likely than the other boys to be honest about his feelings. My thoughts about the bathroom scene were that Taylor was feeling a kind of freedom that things were 'out' and that he could now express his feelings even though the scene itself might have been make believe. When he was lying in his bed, he had a look which seemed to be a bit hopeful to me. Someone else though posted that he was looking at a poster about suicide, I didn't notice that so I might have misinterpreted the scene. 

 

I certainly hope this will not end with suicide. It is so important to send the message to our teens and their parents that you cannot help who you are attracted to and that hiding your true self leads to tragedy. Having a character come out and then kill himself will send an awful message even if it does happen in real life. Also: I'm still not understanding how the coach and his family fit into all this. I didn't really get a bad vibe from what the daughter said either. She was just saying that thinking about doing something is not the same as doing it and I agree. A person who is married will and does find other people attractive sometimes, if you are not acting on it, you are not doing anything wrong.

 

Maybe the moral of this season should be: You can't control your thoughts only your actions.

[represent]

 

Not to mention that the school would want to put on a production like this when they are in the middle of a scandal involving sexual contact with their students.

But they covered this, I think her boyfriend at brought this up, he asked her if she wanted to have the show with all that was going on.I think he asked her in the last episode when they talked about his daughter's suicide attempt.

 

I may not buy her subordinates/colleagues on the board wanting this, but I do buy the character of Leslie wanting to put on this show right in the middle of a rape case to act like it's business as usual. As in, don't worry all, everything is fine and under control. It's all about smoke screening, she makes a really good politician that's what it comes down to IMO.

 

also think the type of liberal parents who would appreciate this type of piece don't seem to fit in with the snotty parents at this school.

 

I agree with this, when they started to dance, I did think that Leslie was going to get some complaints from parents. I just didn't see them appreciating this type of performance at all.

Edited February 5, 2016 by represent

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

On American Crime, Even Ballet Might Not Be Safe
Or: 'You Can Dance If You Want To (See How Terrible Your Community Is).'

[RedheadZombie]

Leslie had quite the Lady McBeth moment. You're never getting that invisible blood off, Leslie.

[nutty1]

Lastly, Taylor stated that Eric "made me feel safe." That is a interesting statement to me because from the audience perspective, Eric has been everything but that. Therefore, why does Taylor have that perspective of Eric especially with the content from those texts messages between the two. Hopefully, we will get more background on their relationship eventually. 

 

My first thought was that man they showed last week sexually abused him, and he liked Eric and therefore felt "safe" with him.

[nutty1]

I was looking up the different actors of the show on IMDb and noticed something. Not sure if it means anything or not. I also didn't see a spoiler section for this show, so...

 

The actor who plays Tayler is listed for 10 episodes, and the actors who play Kevin and Eric are only listed for 6. I wonder if something happens and they wont be there for the last few episodes?

[sjohnson]

I still wonder if it's been confirmed the semen was Eric's. There is such a thing as false confession. A genuine police investigation (which this may not be since Terry LaCroix pulled strings) would seek physical evidence to support Eric's claims. 

[Neurochick]

What is the relationship between Kevin's mother and that police officer?  I wonder if that will be answered.  

[roughing it]

The dance - my thought is that it was a dance troupe they got to perform at the fundraiser, not actual students from the school.  And perhaps that was only one act of many and they didn't show the others, because it doesn't seem right they would all dress up and come to see a 6 minute performance.  I need to see the dance again, because I kind of blanked out during it.

 

Why is Eric missing the bottom lashes of his right eye?  Has anyone else noticed?

[Woebegone]

I still wonder if it's been confirmed the semen was Eric's. There is such a thing as false confession. A genuine police investigation (which this may not be since Terry LaCroix pulled strings) would seek physical evidence to support Eric's claims.

It's possible the DNA test was conducted, but isn't being mentioned because it doesn't add anything new to the narrative (ie. There is only one set of DNA and it matches Eric).

But it's also possible that they're sitting in some laboratory backlog and the game-changing results will come in at some conveniently timed moment in the storyline.

Here's a question though: if Taylor knows (or thinks he knows) who his rapist is, why did they go through the whole rigamarole of testing the whole team? They could have just asked him who it was and they could have just brought Eric in by himself rather than the explosive threat of testing an entire team of kids with rich and influential parents.

[sjohnson]

Taylor doesn't know because his memories are confused. He's just assuming so because Eric tried to commit suicide. That by the way is the best sign that Eric is the rapist. I think Eric is past the stage where just being gay is the problem. And the parents who would have the biggest problem with a gay son is the LaCroix parents I think. But they are the ones who've exalted amorality and cruelty to their son, which is why we can't rule out Kevin. I think.

[Woebegone]

Ok, but Taylor does know or said he does because he said he confronted Eric about it the next day. So unless he was lying about that and he doesn't know and just assumes it was Eric...

Also, I'm not sure if Taylor knows about Eric's suicide attempt. The police only told Anne about the texts and emails, not the suicide. And neither Taylor, Anne, or Evy have mentioned the suicide either.

[vibeology]

Eric does see being gay as the problem. He told his coach that he didn't think he could play basketball if he was gay. His father is being distant and his mom is actively freaking out. His brother was not supportive and he still hasn't had to go back to school to deal with his peers. Eric is very freaked about being out and his suicide attempt makes perfect sense even without the rape looming over him.

[starri]

 

Really? On a broadcast network? I think there are still standards and practices, even at 10PM. I'm guessing they cannot even show people mouthing swear words, the creators didn't want to alter their script

When Southland (speaking of Regina King) was still on NBC, they used un-bleeped "shit" more than a few times.  I doubt any network show is going to tiptoe across the "fuck" line, but if they're trying to emulate a cable series, they could probably be a little saltier.  I'd prefer that to the blackouts.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Hope Davis, but I thought she ran away with this episode.

[GaiusB]

I think the semen is Eric´s and its not mentioned because it is not an issue anymore. Both Eric and Taylor agreed that they had rough sex, i see no reason why it should not be Eric´s semen. I think it is irrelevant unless someone else raped Taylor after he had sex with Eric, but it does not seems very likely to me. Its too complicated, it require another closeted gay and it would be third significant event of that night besides Eric/Taylor sex and the taking of those pictures.

 

I think the story progressed and the question is not anymore about who had rough sex with Taylor, but if it was consensual, who drugged Taylor  and about what  happened and who was present when those pictures were taken (those were almost certainly taken some time after the sex/rape, not during it).

Edited February 5, 2016 by GaiusB

[Bishop]

I have to say though that at this point at least, Taylor's story rings the least true, because Eric doesn't sound like the kind of guy who would premeditate a rape like the one Taylor is describing. 

And I feel the opposite.  I feel like Taylor is telling the truth and Eric is not.  Eric did not seem comfortable with his sexuality, and it seemed obvious when he was in the car with the older guy and only wanted to kiss.  Then later, he didn't seem sorry for his interaction with Taylor, and his "I only did what he wanted."  Even the cop noticed he wasn't sorry.  I'm wondering if Eric, who has already shown to be out of control over his sexuality in almost strangling his brother, got forceful with Taylor.  I can't figure out if Eric hates himself for being gay or hates the secrets of having to stay in the closet.  Taylor does not strike me at all as an aggressive person.  He is clearly the more submissive partner in all his interactions with various characters.  I would be surprised if it was Taylor.

[represent]

 

Eric does see being gay as the problem. He told his coach that he didn't think he could play basketball if he was gay. His father is being distant and his mom is actively freaking out. His brother was not supportive and he still hasn't had to go back to school to deal with his peers. Eric is very freaked about being out and his suicide attempt makes perfect sense even without the rape looming over him.

That's understatement, she literally left the hospital before her son was discharged after a suicide attempt. Really?

[possibilities]

I can't imagine what motive Taylor could possibly have for lying about any of this. He didn't want the investigation to happen. He has repeatedly said that he wants it to stop, he's begged his mother to stop pursuing it, and he's having panic attacks and flashbacks. If he was some sociopathic monster trying to frame Eric for revenge, or for attention, or for some other nasty motive, he would be doing a much better job at coming up with a credible story. He'd be making up more details, filling it out, trying to turn on the charisma, to be more persuasive. As it is, he's practically catatonic until someone yells at him, at which point he gives weak, exhausted answers and then withdraws and stares at the ceiling. Also, in real life, false accusations of rape are vanishingly rare, for all the reasons seen here: the victim or alleged victim is villified, rarely gets justice, and generally has their life ruined. Why would someone sign up for that?

 

Eric and Kevin and everyone else at the school and all their parents, all have motivation to lie here. Whatever happened, they can only lose by admitting to it or having it discovered. They may or may not be making stuff up, omitting important information, and spinning what they say, but their motive is clear and it's working so far-- they are deflecting blame, gaining sympathy, and avoiding prosecution.

 

If Eric and Taylor had lawyers, things would be going much differently. I'm not sure it would be going well, but it would be different.

 

We know something happened. At minimum, someone(s) drugged Taylor and took photos of it, distributing them for amusement, rather than to document it as a crime. He was mocked, bullied, and harassed before that, also. He just doesn't fit the profile for someone who's a powerful manipulator or out to destroy anyone.

 

And we've seen Eric and Kevin discussing their fears of what happened being disclosed. So we know they know something happened, and that it was wrong and that they are going to be in trouble when it gets out. Not just Eric's fear of being outed (which I agree the show is portraying as legitimate, based on his family's reaction), but also Kevin's fear as well. Kevin doesn't just fear he'll be falsely accused. From what he says to his buddies, he is afraid "someone will tell" not that "someone will lie"-- and he doesn't seem to have any enemies, so it's not that he's paranoid about anyone specific, and it's not just Taylor who knows whatever it is Kevin is afraid the rest of the team will spill about. Moreover, if it was just Eric being gay, or Eric having had sex with Taylor, or just that there was booze and drugs at the party with minors-- all that stuff is already out, and Kevin is still afraid "someone will say something."

[represent]

 

Moreover, if it was just Eric being gay, or Eric having had sex with Taylor, or just that there was booze and drugs at the party with minors-- all that stuff is already out, and Kevin is still afraid "someone will say something."

Personally, I think Kevin is terrified to tell his parents he's gay, and I believe he is... Didn't he say that he had sex with his ex girlfriend in the bathroom or something at the party?  I wonder if she was even at the party at all? I don't think she was there.

 

I can't remember his statement exactly, but wasn't she part of his alibi? Didn't he claim to be with her at some point? How come no one has talked to her yet?

 

They didn't show us his father hightailing it up the stairs and grabbing him by the chest asking him if he touched "that boy" for nothing. Cause I agree with whoever saw that scene as the father being more concerned that Kevin might be gay, than any crime being committed.

Edited February 5, 2016 by represent

[izabella]

Personally, I think Kevin is terrified to tell his parents he's gay, and I believe he is... Didn't he say that he had sex with his ex girlfriend in the bathroom or something at the party?  I wonder if she was even at the party at all? I don't think she was there.

 

I can't remember his statement exactly, but wasn't she part of his alibi? Didn't he claim to be with her at some point? How come no one has talked to her yet?

 

Oooo, maybe that's why Kevin gave her that expensive bracelet?  Maybe he paid her to be his alibi.

[Neurochick]

I just watched the whole episode again.  

 

I think this season is all about grey areas.  The part where Becca, the coach's daughter and her mother were talking about her Aunt Sarah.  The mother said Sarah took a man's number, kept it and felt guilty about it.  Becca didn't understand why because Sarah didn't DO anything.  It's all black and white to Becca, you either did something or not.  She didn't understand the guilt feelings because to Becca it was all about action, not intent.

 

I think Kevin and maybe the team, might have known Eric was gay and was going to hook up with Taylor.  Kevin or someone else gave Taylor a drink, maybe it was something they themselves and their girlfriends drink, like it had "molly" in it or something and Taylor reacted badly to it.  

 

What if Eric didn't know Taylor was drugged.  If Eric didn't know Taylor was drugged, then to him Taylor just seemed "into it."  Taylor on the other hand knew something was wrong, but because he was under the influence, he couldn't say anything.  Now, none of this would have come to light, had it not been for the pictures passed around, because that was what caused Taylor's suspension.  To me that means both Eric and Taylor are telling the truth.  No one even asked Taylor if it was possible Eric didn't know he'd been drugged and Eric seemed to think Taylor just had too much to drink.  It seems like there's a disconnect between Eric and Taylor, it's like they saw the same movie two different ways.  

 

Eric and Taylor were going to hook up at the party, someone gave Taylor a drink with something in it that changed how Taylor felt, "I couldn't say no" he said.  Eric however didn't know Taylor was drugged, to Eric, "he was really into it."  

 

And maybe there were no drugs.  I've seen people have different reactions to alcohol.  What if they mixed different bottles together and gave it to Taylor?  

 

One thing that kind of bugs me about this story though, it seems the students at the Marshall school have zero respect for authority.  They remind me of the kids who are brought up to believe they are special snowflakes and they can't have hurt feelings at all.  However, I do get what the Hispanic students meant when they confronted the principal.  In the first episode, one of the teachers told the principal that she felt the breakfast was racist to the Hispanic students (I didn't get why at all), the principal said something like, "How can that be racist, I don't see any hoses or dogs."  Having just seen "Selma" I thought that was an interesting point.  It's a grey area.  Most people see a movie like Selma and say, "what happened on the bridge THAT was racism," but they might not think something like, whitewashing a character in a movie or a TV show is racist.   The principal was kind of like Becca, if the aunt didn't DO anything, she shouldn't feel guilty.  If it's not hoses and dogs and billy clubs, it's not racism.

 

Don't know if that makes any sense, but, my two cents.

[Tarataru]

I just watched the whole episode again.  

 

I think this season is all about grey areas.  The part where Becca, the coach's daughter and her mother were talking about her Aunt Sarah.  The mother said Sarah took a man's number, kept it and felt guilty about it.  Becca didn't understand why because Sarah didn't DO anything.  It's all black and white to Becca, you either did something or not.  She didn't understand the guilt feelings because to Becca it was all about action, not intent.

 

I think Kevin and maybe the team, might have known Eric was gay and was going to hook up with Taylor.  Kevin or someone else gave Taylor a drink, maybe it was something they themselves and their girlfriends drink, like it had "molly" in it or something and Taylor reacted badly to it.  

 

What if Eric didn't know Taylor was drugged.  If Eric didn't know Taylor was drugged, then to him Taylor just seemed "into it."  Taylor on the other hand knew something was wrong, but because he was under the influence, he couldn't say anything.  Now, none of this would have come to light, had it not been for the pictures passed around, because that was what caused Taylor's suspension.  To me that means both Eric and Taylor are telling the truth.  No one even asked Taylor if it was possible Eric didn't know he'd been drugged and Eric seemed to think Taylor just had too much to drink.  It seems like there's a disconnect between Eric and Taylor, it's like they saw the same movie two different ways.  

 

Eric and Taylor were going to hook up at the party, someone gave Taylor a drink with something in it that changed how Taylor felt, "I couldn't say no" he said.  Eric however didn't know Taylor was drugged, to Eric, "he was really into it."  

 

And maybe there were no drugs.  I've seen people have different reactions to alcohol.  What if they mixed different bottles together and gave it to Taylor?  

 

One thing that kind of bugs me about this story though, it seems the students at the Marshall school have zero respect for authority.  They remind me of the kids who are brought up to believe they are special snowflakes and they can't have hurt feelings at all.  However, I do get what the Hispanic students meant when they confronted the principal.  In the first episode, one of the teachers told the principal that she felt the breakfast was racist to the Hispanic students (I didn't get why at all), the principal said something like, "How can that be racist, I don't see any hoses or dogs."  Having just seen "Selma" I thought that was an interesting point.  It's a grey area.  Most people see a movie like Selma and say, "what happened on the bridge THAT was racism," but they might not think something like, whitewashing a character in a movie or a TV show is racist.   The principal was kind of like Becca, if the aunt didn't DO anything, she shouldn't feel guilty.  If it's not hoses and dogs and billy clubs, it's not racism.

 

Don't know if that makes any sense, but, my two cents.

The stories of Eric and Taylor does not seem to completely match up to the point that at least one of them is lying. For example, Eric said that he didnt give Taylor any alcohol while Taylor said that he did. Also, Eric said that "And then he wanted me to unload" while Taylor said he never gave consent. Therefore, someone is not telling the truth here. 

 

Personally, I do believe that Taylor got drugged. However, I have a hard time thinking Eric did it. I am thinking that someone drugged Taylor and in the middle of their interaction, the drug took effect. Eric probably didnt know what was happening and just went with it because of what Taylor was saying. 

[Woebegone]

And I feel the opposite.  I feel like Taylor is telling the truth and Eric is not.  Eric did not seem comfortable with his sexuality, and it seemed obvious when he was in the car with the older guy and only wanted to kiss.  Then later, he didn't seem sorry for his interaction with Taylor, and his "I only did what he wanted."  Even the cop noticed he wasn't sorry.  I'm wondering if Eric, who has already shown to be out of control over his sexuality in almost strangling his brother, got forceful with Taylor.  I can't figure out if Eric hates himself for being gay or hates the secrets of having to stay in the closet.  Taylor does not strike me at all as an aggressive person.  He is clearly the more submissive partner in all his interactions with various characters.  I would be surprised if it was Taylor.

 

I actually don't think either are lying. I think that they're both being mostly truthful about what happened. What I find strangely inconsistent about Taylor's story is how he describes the rape. If Eric is so forceful and 'out of control', then why did the rape sound so cold and deliberate? Taylor wasn't aggressively held down and violently assaulted. Instead, he was drugged and lay there helpless while the rapist just did his thing. It sounded a lot more like a power and control trip than an exercise of anger and hatred.

 

I can't imagine what motive Taylor could possibly have for lying about any of this. He didn't want the investigation to happen. He has repeatedly said that he wants it to stop, he's begged his mother to stop pursuing it, and he's having panic attacks and flashbacks. If he was some sociopathic monster trying to frame Eric for revenge, or for attention, or for some other nasty motive, he would be doing a much better job at coming up with a credible story. He'd be making up more details, filling it out, trying to turn on the charisma, to be more persuasive. As it is, he's practically catatonic until someone yells at him, at which point he gives weak, exhausted answers and then withdraws and stares at the ceiling. Also, in real life, false accusations of rape are vanishingly rare, for all the reasons seen here: the victim or alleged victim is villified, rarely gets justice, and generally has their life ruined. Why would someone sign up for that?

 

But Taylor has already lied about the rape. He lied about why he was at the party. He lied about his relationship with Eric. I mean, we're talking about a guy who brought his girlfriend to a party she didn't want to go to so he could get an extra thrill out of cheating on her in the next room. None of this changes the fact that he was raped (which I believe), but he has a track record of hiding things that would hurt the people he cares about.

[placate]

Why is Taylor gay now?  Why can't he just be a bi-sexual.  He has/had a girlfriend.

[starri]

A) Because sometimes gay kids date people of the opposite sex when they're trying to figure themselves out.

 

B) Has Taylor identified himself as gay and not bi?  Eric stated that he's gay, but not Taylor IIRC.

[joelene]

Why is Taylor gay now? Why can't he just be a bi-sexual. He has/had a girlfriend.

He can be, but a high schooler struggling with being gay can still have a girlfriend. It's extremely common. Especially since he had said girlfriend while still being in the closet, and now that "the gay" is out and has caused all this insane hurt, he might still want to live in denial and believe he likes girls too. And if he was bisexual, I think the likelihood he'd risk so much to cheat on someone he was already genuinely attracted to (with a another boy at a party no less) would be pretty low.

Edited February 6, 2016 by joelene

[Neurochick]

I know that it is possible to ingest drugs or alcohol and "black out" meaning you're upright and to all appearances seem okay, but later you have no conscious memory of what happened, people will say, "you should have seen what you did last night" and you can't recall it, at all.  That happened to me decades ago, it's happened to countless people in or not in recovery today.  If that's what happened then Taylor is telling the truth from what he recalls.  

[Happytobehere]

 

The actors who are playing Taylor and Eric are doing a great job and my heart breaks for both of them. No young man should have to explain his sexual fantasies and thoughts to adults, especially his mother. I did guess from the first episode that Taylor was interested in Eric, but I think Kevin may be as well. Kevin has to fit into the rape/sex somewhere and he is a main character along with his parents. I would find it a bit hard to believe that all three young men are closeted gay teens who happen to be in the same circle with no one else suspecting/knowing anything but nothing else fits right now. I guess Kevin could also be protective of Eric in a bro way, but I can't see that leading to him drugging or hurting Taylor.

 

I agree. I think Kevin is the missing piece. If we accept that Eric and Taylor felt themselves to be in a difficult position coming out as gay, imagine Kevin and the reaction he would fear from his parents and the rest of the team.

Personally, I think Kevin is terrified to tell his parents he's gay, and I believe he is... Didn't he say that he had sex with his ex girlfriend in the bathroom or something at the party?  I wonder if she was even at the party at all? I don't think she was there.

 

I can't remember his statement exactly, but wasn't she part of his alibi? Didn't he claim to be with her at some point? How come no one has talked to her yet?

 

They didn't show us his father hightailing it up the stairs and grabbing him by the chest asking him if he touched "that boy" for nothing. Cause I agree with whoever saw that scene as the father being more concerned that Kevin might be gay, than any crime being committed.

This is where I'm at. We saw concerns about Kevin's sexual orientation in different episodes from both his parents. That tells me that whatever is going on is beyond general homophobia. Both of Kevin's parents fear he is gay, because they have observed things for him that they associate, rightly or wrongly, with gay people. Yes, I think the bracelet as given to the girlfriend to be his alibi. There is a reason we saw her reject Kevin's sexual advances in the bedroom. I think that scene was shown to let us know, that it is unlikely that the girl (can't remember her name) would be okay having sex in the bathroom, let alone the bathroom of a house filled with a ton of people who could walk in at anytime.

[RedheadZombie]

I'm not sure if Eric drugged Taylor or knew someone else did, but we've come to a point in this country where we acknowledge that a man having sex with a female -unable to give consent - is wrong. I don't know why that changes if the drugged person is male. If Taylor was physically unable to give consent (which Taylor claims and I believe), he was laying there stuporous. He would not be encouraging Eric and he would be very clearly not into it. Eric was pissed when he told the police that Taylor was crying. That's when any sympathy I had for the little shit ended. I think most of us would realize how horrible he was if he called a female hookup, "that little bitch".

[Mom x 3]

I think the statement that three closeted male students (two of them captains) is hilarious.  We wouldn't think anything about these same students being heterosexual.  

 

I do have one question though.  Many of you don't think Kevin raped Taylor because you don't think Kevin is gay.  But if rape is about power/control and not about sex, would it matter that a male raped another male vs a female?  I would almost equate it to a dog humping another dog to assert his dominance.  I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm genuinely trying to find out from someone who understands the subject matter better than I do.  

[mrsbagnet]

 

I do have one question though.  Many of you don't think Kevin raped Taylor because you don't think Kevin is gay.  But if rape is about power/control and not about sex, would it matter that a male raped another male vs a female?  I would almost equate it to a dog humping another dog to assert his dominance.  I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm genuinely trying to find out from someone who understands the subject matter better than I do.

 

I agree, sexual orientation doesn't matter in this scenario. The details are fuzzy here. For all we know, Taylor might have been assaulted by someone else using an object (in addition to having sexual contact with Eric).

 

I really have no thoughts about whether Kevin was involved in or knew of the assault. I do believe that he had sex with his girlfriend at the party. When she refused him at his house in episode 1, I thought it was because his parents were home. She didn't want to be caught by his parents and give his mom another reason to dislike her. Of course, having sex in Val doesn't mean that he had no part in the attack against Taylor.

[Tarataru]

I'm not sure if Eric drugged Taylor or knew someone else did, but we've come to a point in this country where we acknowledge that a man having sex with a female -unable to give consent - is wrong. I don't know why that changes if the drugged person is male. If Taylor was physically unable to give consent (which Taylor claims and I believe), he was laying there stuporous. He would not be encouraging Eric and he would be very clearly not into it. Eric was pissed when he told the police that Taylor was crying. That's when any sympathy I had for the little shit ended. I think most of us would realize how horrible he was if he called a female hookup, "that little bitch".

 

The problem with Taylor is that he has not been completely honest with people. He literally just used Evy as a "beard" which is a pretty bad thing to do. Afterwards, when she finally confronts him, he still trying to hide saying that he isnt homosexual. Therefore, he seems to have no problem using someone or lying. That is why I cant just completely trust what Taylor says. In Eric's case, he just seems to continue putting on a facade in front of people. It does not give him the right to talk like he does about other people, but I dont see that as the real him. When I watch this show, I try to really focus on the characters facial expressions. Maybe I am just getting tricked, but I see Erics expressions when he is alone as a completely different person than his tough facade in front of others. Even Taylor said that Eric "made me feel safe." I will say though that Eric could have easily raped Taylor at the party, but I cant just completely believe that at this point. I doubt we will get it, but I am hoping for some type of interaction between Eric and Taylor directly before the season is over. I think we can probably come to a decent conclusion if this ever occurs. 

[Madding crowd]

I think the statement that three closeted male students (two of them captains) is hilarious.  We wouldn't think anything about these same students being heterosexual.  

 

I do have one question though.  Many of you don't think Kevin raped Taylor because you don't think Kevin is gay.  But if rape is about power/control and not about sex, would it matter that a male raped another male vs a female?  I would almost equate it to a dog humping another dog to assert his dominance.  I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm genuinely trying to find out from someone who understands the subject matter better than I do.

My comment was about statistics. According to recent stats gathered by The government and approved by the Gay community; 1.6 percent of Americans identify as gay, that means there is a approximate percentage of 97 that identify as heterosexual ( the rest being bi, undecided, unlabeled). I meant nothing negative, just probability.

[starri]

My comment was about statistics. According to recent stats gathered by The government and approved by the Gay community; 1.6 percent of Americans identify as gay, that means there is a approximate percentage of 97 that identify as heterosexual ( the rest being bi, undecided, unlabeled). I meant nothing negative, just probability.

Speaking as a practicing homosexual (and getting pretty darn good at it), I don't recall voting for that.

 

Also, whether or not someone identifies as gay, that doesn't automatically mean that their behavior isn't gay or bi.  There's a reason why epidemiology groups people who participate in male-male sex as Men Who Have Sex With Men (MSM) and not "gay men."

[Mom x 3]

My comment was about statistics. According to recent stats gathered by The government and approved by the Gay community; 1.6 percent of Americans identify as gay, that means there is a approximate percentage of 97 that identify as heterosexual ( the rest being bi, undecided, unlabeled). I meant nothing negative, just probability.

Ooh, I read it on more than one comment, so please don't think I was singling you out.  

My point is much like starri's.  Just because someone doesn't identify as gay doesn't mean they aren't closeted in some way.  Many men on the "down low" (I really hate that term) identify themselves as heterosexual.  That may be due to stigma, but the men I know about seem to enjoy their wives and everything else that comes with a typical heterosexual lifestyle.

 

Edited because punctuation is helpful.

Edited February 7, 2016 by HospiceDoc

[possibilities]

Also, rape is about assault, not about sex. Taylor could have been being hazed in violent ways that leave sexual markers, and it has nothing to do with sexual attraction and everything to do with violent humiliation and domination by the attacker(s).

 

As far as statistics are concerned, I had not seen that very low incidence statistic myself. All my life people have been saying 10% of the population. But whatever the numbers are overall, there are definitely areas of concentration. In my (small/rural) town, which is famous in the county as "where hippies and lesbians retire" there is no way that 9 out of 10 women I meet are straight. NO WAY. Likewise, I bet there is a higher percentage of queers (that's not a derogatory word in my usage) in San Francisco, where people know it's safe to be one and thus will move there specifically for that freedom, than in some other places where being queer is still a reality but many leave if they can, because it's just too hard to be there. As this applies to the basketball team, and whether it's realistic or not to have "so many" guys who like guys, I have been in many small groups where I was not the only LGBorT, without the group specifically being designed to welcome or attract us. It just happens.

 

Also, Taylor may or may not be insincere in his dating of Evy. He said he's not gay, he said he's confused about how he feels for her. Maybe that was a hedge because he is using her, or maybe, as others have suggested, he's bi-- or, like he himself said, maybe he's confused. He's a teenager. Most teenagers are confused or ambivalent about all kinds of things. I find it totally believable that Taylor is or could be, too.

[gunderda]

Didn't the guy who spoke to Taylor's mom about his lawsuit/settlement with the school say that it was NOT sexual in nature with his daughter and a teacher?  More like a bullying type of situation?  Or did I miss something at the very end?

 

 

Something feels off to me about Taylor, yet it was weird how Eric was SO open about the details of the situation while his parents were sitting there. 

[mansonlamps]

I think the situation with the girl/teacher was inappropriate and sexual, but verbal harassment rather than physical if I'm remembering correctly.

[izabella]

Didn't the guy who spoke to Taylor's mom about his lawsuit/settlement with the school say that it was NOT sexual in nature with his daughter and a teacher?  More like a bullying type of situation?  Or did I miss something at the very end?

 

That's how I understood it, too.  That the teacher was verbally abusive, or bullying, not sexual in nature.

[kassandra8286]

That's how I understood it, too.  That the teacher was verbally abusive, or bullying, not sexual in nature.

 

I just watched again with closed captioning on. The father tells Anne his daughter was being harassed, and when Anne interrupts to ask, "she was touched?" the father replies no, it was verbal, but the teacher was saying "lewd" things to her. Which could still be a matter of interpretation, but it definitely implies the comments were sexual.

 

When my son was in middle school there was a math teacher who would make inappropriate comments to the girls, asking them if they had changed their hair or if they were wearing makeup, saying things like, "oh, you're wearing a dress today! how pretty you look", etc. Nothing overtly "lewd" I suppose, but creepy nonetheless. Parents complained, but nothing was done until the administrators finally discovered he'd been changing test scores to give the "pretty girls" As. Then they fired his ass.

Edited February 8, 2016 by kassandra8286

[gunderda]

I just watched again with closed captioning on. The father tells Anne his daughter was being harassed, and when Anne interrupts to ask, "she was touched?" the father replies no, it was verbal, but the teacher was saying "lewd" things to her. Which could still be a matter of interpretation, but it definitely implies the comments were sexual.

 

When my son was in middle school there was a math teacher who would make inappropriate comments to the girls, asking them if they had changed their hair or if they were wearing makeup, saying things like, "oh, you're wearing a dress today! how pretty you look", etc. Nothing overtly "lewd" I suppose, but creepy nonetheless. Parents complained, but nothing was done until the administrators finally discovered he'd been changing test scores to give the "pretty girls" As. Then they fired his ass.

ahhh yea, I did miss that - funny how our minds obviously hear something but it gets interpreted in our brains differently.

 

Thanks for clarifying!

[RedheadZombie]

I do have one question though.  Many of you don't think Kevin raped Taylor because you don't think Kevin is gay.  But if rape is about power/control and not about sex, would it matter that a male raped another male vs a female?  I would almost equate it to a dog humping another dog to assert his dominance.  I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm genuinely trying to find out from someone who understands the subject matter better than I do.  

 

Of course straight men rape men, but it's always more prevalent in situations where there's a shortage of females:  prison, military, all-male schools, religious orders.

 

Rape is always wrong, and it's about power, but we still don't know the details.  Was Taylor raped by someone he was initially interested in a consensual tryst with, was he raped solely to humiliate him, or was there a mix of the two. 

 

Kevin is definitely in the mix somehow, but I'm not getting the rage vibe from him, like I do Eric.  I felt for Eric during his suicide attempt, but I'm increasingly disliking him.  Yes he's in a difficult situation.  But he's not the poorest and picked on (that's Taylor), he's not the one named in the media (that's Kevin), he's not the one with the absentee father (that's Taylor), he's not the one with the controlling and demanding parents (that's Kevin). 

 

I think the actor portraying Eric is doing well, and I'm reading anger, lack of empathy, and absolutely no remorse.  Even if Eric somehow innocently engaged in what he thought was a pre-planned and consensual encounter (and missed that his partner was completely out of it), he walked away when Taylor was a sobbing mess, abandoned him to the mocking and picture taking, then did the bare minimum by driving him home and dumping him on the street.  I think it would be viewed differently if he left a sobbing female who was later preyed upon. 

 

As to feeling pity for him because his brother was so unsupportive after his suicide attempt, well his brother had just attempted to kill him a day or two prior, so perhaps a little time is needed to get over that.

 

I'm really liking this show, but I'm beginning to think several scenes were deliberate misdirects.  For instance - Kevin's overly handsy encounter with the girlfriend, Eric's almost chaste encounter with the older man, Taylor's text about liking a pillow over his face while masturbating, a report that a teacher at the school had acted inappropriately.  I just don't think this show needs red herrings.  So I'm trying to go off of what I'm perceiving from the acting.  Taylor is mostly telling the truth, Eric is guilty and pissed he didn't get away with it, Kevin is tangentially involved and worried about his parents' reaction, and the coach is simply idealistic and naïve.  If it turns out that I'm completely wrong, I don't think I'll be back for next season.  Bait and switch has it's place, but I don't think it's on a show like this.

[Tarataru]

Of course straight men rape men, but it's always more prevalent in situations where there's a shortage of females:  prison, military, all-male schools, religious orders.

 

Rape is always wrong, and it's about power, but we still don't know the details.  Was Taylor raped by someone he was initially interested in a consensual tryst with, was he raped solely to humiliate him, or was there a mix of the two. 

 

Kevin is definitely in the mix somehow, but I'm not getting the rage vibe from him, like I do Eric.  I felt for Eric during his suicide attempt, but I'm increasingly disliking him.  Yes he's in a difficult situation.  But he's not the poorest and picked on (that's Taylor), he's not the one named in the media (that's Kevin), he's not the one with the absentee father (that's Taylor), he's not the one with the controlling and demanding parents (that's Kevin). 

 

I think the actor portraying Eric is doing well, and I'm reading anger, lack of empathy, and absolutely no remorse.  Even if Eric somehow innocently engaged in what he thought was a pre-planned and consensual encounter (and missed that his partner was completely out of it), he walked away when Taylor was a sobbing mess, abandoned him to the mocking and picture taking, then did the bare minimum by driving him home and dumping him on the street.  I think it would be viewed differently if he left a sobbing female who was later preyed upon. 

 

As to feeling pity for him because his brother was so unsupportive after his suicide attempt, well his brother had just attempted to kill him a day or two prior, so perhaps a little time is needed to get over that.

 

I'm really liking this show, but I'm beginning to think several scenes were deliberate misdirects.  For instance - Kevin's overly handsy encounter with the girlfriend, Eric's almost chaste encounter with the older man, Taylor's text about liking a pillow over his face while masturbating, a report that a teacher at the school had acted inappropriately.  I just don't think this show needs red herrings.  So I'm trying to go off of what I'm perceiving from the acting.  Taylor is mostly telling the truth, Eric is guilty and pissed he didn't get away with it, Kevin is tangentially involved and worried about his parents' reaction, and the coach is simply idealistic and naïve.  If it turns out that I'm completely wrong, I don't think I'll be back for next season.  Bait and switch has it's place, but I don't think it's on a show like this.

I wouldnt say the show is not good if Eric wasnt guilty of rape by what they have shown us through acting. From the acting, Taylor showed that he may be lying about about calling Eric the next day so Eric would admit what Eric did to him. If thats the case, I dont see why he was staring at Eric in the gym like he was. I also see how Taylor has shown to lie. For example, his relationship with Evy seems like a complete lie. 

 

It is decent chance that Eric is the main culprit. However, at this time, I just see Eric as a person that puts on a show for others. That in itself doesnt make me assume he must have raped Taylor because he talks a big game. You can see that is not him by his facial expressions when others arent around. 

[RedheadZombie]

I wouldnt say the show is not good if Eric wasnt guilty of rape by what they have shown us through acting. From the acting, Taylor showed that he may be lying about about calling Eric the next day so Eric would admit what Eric did to him. If thats the case, I dont see why he was staring at Eric in the gym like he was. I also see how Taylor has shown to lie. For example, his relationship with Evy seems like a complete lie. 

 

It is decent chance that Eric is the main culprit. However, at this time, I just see Eric as a person that puts on a show for others. That in itself doesnt make me assume he must have raped Taylor because he talks a big game. You can see that is not him by his facial expressions when others arent around.

I don't really mean that it would be a bad show if my speculation is wrong. My point was more that I would feel manipulated by the writing if what they're showing me is bait and switch.

I'm not personally interpreting Eric as just playing tough. The only time he hasn't been a complete asshole was when he was playing hard to get with the older man. He was an asshole to Taylor and Evy, when he was talking about "it" to Kevin, when he was punished by the school, when talking to the police, and certainly when he was choking out his younger brother. He's pissed that anyone has questioned his behavior, he was pissed that he was punished, he was pissed that Taylor didn't simply pull up his pants and go away.

I find Eric petulant, defensive, and self-pitying. Yes his parents are reeling at discovering he's gay, but that hasn't happened in a vacuum. The parents were already dealing with getting divorced, financial difficulties, their son being accused of a serious crime, their son getting pretty close to committing suicide, and then this. I'm not ready to label his parents as neglectful, unsupportive, and homophobic. Prior to the OD, the parents seemed to be reasonably civil to each other, his father was making time for him, the mother was making due with inconsistent child support. The father attempted to speak to Kevin's parents and present a united front. I'm not sure that their reaction is solely that he's gay. He's a boy being accused of raping a classmate. They were then witness to Eric's interview with the police, and his obvious disdane and lack of concern regarding Taylor. I find his cold and uncaring attitude during the questioning much more disturbing than the coach's daughter laughing off not sobbing in guilt because you accepted a guy's number.

[Woebegone]

I guess it's all really subjective, but I'm in agreement with Tarutaru that Eric is playing the tough guy and that he's not as big a douche as people think (which is not to say that he's not a douche...). I actually think it's great though that the actor has played the character so ambiguously that people can watch the same performance and come out with completely different interpretations, irregardless of whether they are right or wrong.

[LydiaMoon1]

I have to say though that at this point at least, Taylor's story rings the least true, because Eric doesn't sound like the kind of guy who would premeditate a rape like the one Taylor is describing.

And I feel the opposite.  I feel like Taylor is telling the truth and Eric is not.

 

IA completely.  I think Eric's version of events has elements of truth in it (as all the best lies do), but I think we'll discover he included some significant omissions as well. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

Leslie had quite the Lady McBeth moment. You're never getting that invisible blood off, Leslie.

 

Yesss!  That one is a piece of work.  She's like the serpent in the Garden of Eden.  Her soothing voice and sympathetic smiles as she was tempting the coach's wife to join the school's Taylor witchhunt made my skin crawl.

Edited February 9, 2016 by LydiaMoon1

[Portia]

I agree with those who found the beat poetry and modern dance much too on the nose. That being said, I'm crossing my fingers for the show to treat us to an Old-Timey Radio Play before the season ends.

 

My husband has always hated Hope Davis, so it was a big deal when he commented that she was really knocking it out of the park with her performance in this episode.