S04.E12: Unchained

[Angel12d]

I liked it in the episode. They have to remove Thea off the death list somehow ;) Seems they are going in order of Fiancee, sister and then best friend. Maybe a :p but it's the the traditional hierarchy of importance. Wife&kids and then siblings&parents and then best friends. Leaving it to the Lance's and the non main cast. And then to Just Lance. Or so goes my theories. Any way I wasn't trying to change your opinion or anything. Just giving mine.

 

I know you weren't trying to change my opinion. I was just agreeing with you that I don't find her bloodlust boring, that's all. 

Edited February 4, 2016 by Angel12d

[DeadZeus]

Oliver won't lay a finger on Malcolm let alone kill him. The show lost it's balls to do that. I love Malcolm but i wouldn't mind Oliver finally killing him. But that just won't happen. I just can't imagine it. Oliver is not badass or dark enough to kill at the moment.

[BunsenBurner]

We have all been wanting Oliver to fight by himself so he jumps through the ceiling and fights six(?) bad guys while Laurel, Diggle and Roy stand in the background and watch. Dumb.

[bijoux]

"Just wait till you see what I've got planned for the subway cars."  Subway?  Did he miss season 1 when we learned there is no longer a subway under Starling City?

 .

Also per season 1, there are abandoned cars in the abandoned subway lines. Roy was kept in one when Oliver saved him.

[Morrigan2575]

We have all been wanting Oliver to fight by himself so he jumps through the ceiling and fights six(?) bad guys while Laurel, Diggle and Roy stand in the background and watch. Dumb.

Did the bad guys even fight back?  I thought that whole fight sequence was embarrassingly bad.  I did love the Parkour chase at the beginning and the very cool Roy repelling away from explosion but not enough to overlook that crap fight.

[looptab]

Re: the subway cars, the show seems undecided on whether or not Star City has a functioning subway. In season 1 they said it's no more in use, but in season 3 Cupid cuffed the Arrow to the rails and he managed to escape just before a train hit them.

[bijoux]

Re: the subway cars, the show seems undecided on whether or not Star City has a functioning subway. In season 1 they said it's no more in use, but in season 3 Cupid cuffed the Arrow to the rails and he managed to escape just before a train hit them.

Was that a subway or just a regular train? S3 is such a haze to me.

[looptab]

I have always thought it was the subway, haha. Now I'm not sure anymore, I need to go and check.

[apinknightmare]

I think that was the subway. Or at least an underground area for a regular train.

Edited February 4, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Delphi]

It's certainly possible that they either have two subway systems, one non functioning and a newer fancy one. Or more likely perhaps there are various routes on the subway that just aren't used anymore and have been blocked off and forgotten. But with the amount of unnatural earthquakes the city has it'd be a surprise that they have a working transit at all.

[BunsenBurner]

Did the bad guys even fight back?  I thought that whole fight sequence was embarrassingly bad.  I did love the Parkour chase at the beginning and the very cool Roy repelling away from explosion but not enough to overlook that crap fight.

They were so mesmerized by Green Arrow showing up that they said take me out first!

[theacostov]

I don't find Thea's challenge with bloodlust boring. But the issues it bought up in this episode - mainly with Thea being in hospital again and Oliver trying to save her again felt a bit like a retread of s3. And the 'my choice, my life' stuff was just so heavy handed and repeated too much (and also said by Felicity in s2 so it's well and truly overdone by now).

Yeah my sister and I were wondering if we should start a drinking game. 1 shot for every time someone says my life, my choice, 2 shots every time someone tells oliver it's not his fault.

[bijoux]

They were so mesmerized by Green Arrow showing up that they said take me out first!

Oh my God! Where's a sharpie when you need one?! Stooge Four, take our photoM

[Slovenly Muse]

 

We have all been wanting Oliver to fight by himself so he jumps through the ceiling and fights six(?) bad guys while Laurel, Diggle and Roy stand in the background and watch. Dumb.

 

That was the worst! Yes, it was dumb that the bad guys didn't even fight back, but more than that, why would Oliver have even dropped down in the first place to take on six opponents in close quarters?! Isn't the point of being an archer to take out targets from a distance? Like, say, from above? Way to give up your power position AND reduce the effectiveness of your primary weapon in one bizarre fell swoop!

[Xenith22]

They were so mesmerized by Green Arrow showing up that they said take me out first!

Heh...in my head I've invented a backstory about a guy and his drinking/hunting buddies who while a little drunk are cruising the darknet one night and stumble upon an ad for a large mercenary group that is hiring guys for an absurd amount of money just to stand around buildings for a couple hours.   Plus they give you a cool rifle and bullet proof vest that are yours to keep.  Way too good a deal for them to pass up in their somewhat inebriated states.  So the bitcoin comes pouring in just for being members and doing nothing. 

 

Then they get the call for this job.   Stuff just got real.  They are reluctant to go at first but realize since they already took the groups money they will probably be killed if they don't show up.   So they go and get their gear and smartly volunteer to guard the deep interior of the building near the clients device.  That way the actual highly trained merc will likely deal with any threat before it reaches them.   Of course then Team Arrow shows up and their first instinct is to hide.  However a boss is screaming at them in their ear about how brutally they will be killed if they do not get their butts out there.  So taking advantage of the element of surprise they emerge guns trained on Team Arrow.  However since they are not killers they do not shoot them instead just planning to keep nervously aiming their guns at them indefinitely. (Seriously you can actually see a couple of them rocking side to side while aiming their guns...a sure sign of nerves at work).  

 

Then the Green Arrow shows up and they have no idea what to do. 

 

Guy #1 is knocked out before he realizes what has happened. 

Guy #2 just plain faints or plays dead (seriously in slo-motion you can see Oliver does not really come close to touching him). 

Guy #3 is too dumbstruck/terrified to move at all.  He stands still as Green Arrow kicks him. 

Guy #4 played some football for Starling City Community College and thus tries to tackle Green Arrow like a QB...it does not end well for him.  

Guy #5 is the smart one of the group.  Probably the one who knew how to get on the darknet in the first place.  He just runs the heck away as the Green Arrow beats on his buddies (Not kidding...there are 6 guys and one of them actually just runs away only pausing to give a quick glance back at them then keeps going. 

Guy #6 attended a couple Karate lessons  while he was in the 8th grade and has seen enough martial arts movies so he totally figure he can maybe take this Green Arrow guy and get revenge for his downed friends.  He does impressively manage to dodge one swing but this makes him cocky and he is quickly TKO'd right after before being able to take a swing of his own.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Xenith22

[hogwash]

Honestly, I'm just glad it didn't turn into another boring ensemble fight scene (sorry, Roy!). Even if I couldn't exactly figure out what Oliver was do. There was a lot of whirling. 

[WaitandHope]

Observations from my children during the episode last night.  They are completely unspoiled - except for previews of the episode the week before.

 

1) "Why is Nyssa fighting with that woman?  Who is she again?  Oh yeah, last year's flashback.  She was married to the guy that died."

 

2) "I hate the flashbacks.  Is that the twin or the other twin?  Please fast forward."

 

3) "The Calculator is so Felicity's dad! Finally!  I've totally guessed it.  Right mom?  I know you are totally spoiled."

 

4) "Why is Malcolm there?  Sometimes, Oliver is kinda dumb."

 

5) "Has Thea totally forgotten about Alex?  Who's Alex? why can't Roy come back? That doesn't make any sense at all."

 

My kids are awesome!  (And, yes, they totally watch too much TV, considering they are all 10 and under. Bad habits start early in my house!) 

[Happy Harpy]

We have all been wanting Oliver to fight by himself so he jumps through the ceiling and fights six(?) bad guys while Laurel, Diggle and Roy stand in the background and watch. Dumb.

Isn't it sad that I'm so deprived of Oliver kicking ass that I still want to take it as a win?

[kismet]

I'll be the lone voice here and say that I still love Malcolm and don't want him to die, especially if he's going to continue to point out the many ways that Oliver is an idiot. That's great. But I also don't think he should be hanging out in Laurel's apartment. He was responsible for her sister's temporary murder. 

No I'm with you. I do NOT want MM to die. I want him to wreck more havoc on the world. But I want the show to stop trying to sell me on his redemption or that he is a shoo-in for Father of the Year. He is a master manipulator and an evil man. Just let him be that. Just let him be who we all know him to be. Let's break the Queen's habit of thinking MM is a misguided soul trying to help us because he loves us. It's bullshit.

 

Also at this point, OQ should just defeat him, take back the ring. Let MM go sulk in some far corner of the world to work on his master plan. And then OQ should take over the LoA and open a SC branch. This way he can have a group of people designated to fight & kill the Ghosts (hopefully offscreen, so I don't have to see the bad stunt work). Nyssa can run the international branch and report in every so many months. He can get on with his life. Start paying attention to his loved ones. Maybe get a night off to romance FS. It's a win-win. Also he can start switching up his fighting outfits, because I don't know how many more scenes I can watch that clunky green shoulder padded monstrosity punch somebody. It was so nice to see him use is arrows again. It was also nice to see the original hood even if it was on Shado. And to be honest, I really miss him using a sword.

[nksarmi]

I DO want Malcolm to die and I want Nyssa to be the one to kill him.  But I can wait for that to happen if Oliver will just stop treating him like he's been some kind of "father figure/role model" to him and a great dad to Thea all her life.  I mean Oliver acts like he has a serious brain injury when it comes to Malcolm.  I hope someday Felicity discovers that Malcolm put some kind of chip in Oliver's head so that everything ends up making some kind of sense. 

 

I mean it's bad enough that I have to listen to Barry get all confused about the Earth 1 Harrison Wells who was really Eobard Thorne being a kind of evil mentor to him.  Because yea, he kind of was an evil mentor to him.  But all Malcolm has going is the evil part - he didn't even mentor Oliver.  And the only lives Malcolm has saved are ones he took or endangered to begin with.  He's a villain Oliver - start treating him like one!

[AudienceofOne]

It's certainly possible that they either have two subway systems, one non functioning and a newer fancy one. Or more likely perhaps there are various routes on the subway that just aren't used anymore and have been blocked off and forgotten. But with the amount of unnatural earthquakes the city has it'd be a surprise that they have a working transit at all.

Season 1 was another country but I thought there was a functional subway and a series of defunct subway stations where the subway no longer ran.

My main takeaway from this episode was that Colton Haynes has finally been taking acting lessons. Really enjoyed all his scenes.

[statsgirl]

Question:

-- I don't recall hearing the dialogue tease that was spoiled by the Arrow Writers Room.  Was it even said in 412, and if so, by whom?

Thea told Roy that he was taking such good care of her that he should be a nurse in his new life. He replied that he had room for only one patient and that was her.

 

Plus, as Racj82 said, this is a readjustment for Felicity, not a life-or-death situation (like Thea's).

The problem will be if Felicity's is the only injury that is permanent though.   Everyone else goes out risking life and limb on a regular basis but they always recover just fine while Felicity, who stays behind, gets a permanent disability from just riding in a limo with Oliver?

[apinknightmare]

Did two different makeup artists do Ruve's foundation? She legit has two different colors on with a line of demarcation going straight down the middle of her face. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Apropos of nothing, I just found this scene with Felicity utterly adorable. SImple line, but Emily elevated it:

 

 

 

[Slovenly Muse]

 

The problem will be if Felicity's is the only injury that is permanent though.   Everyone else goes out risking life and limb on a regular basis but they always recover just fine while Felicity, who stays behind, gets a permanent disability from just riding in a limo with Oliver?

 

One: We don't know that the injury is permanent, or what other injuries may or may not be permanent in the future. There's no sense in complaining about something that hasn't actually happened. Unless you think she should have already been cured, and three episodes is too long for this storyline to have gone on, in which case I vehemently disagree. This is a life-changer and it's just getting started.

 

Two: Felicity wasn't injured from riding in a limo with Oliver. She was injured because she flat-out refused to distance herself from him (and in fact drew closer to him) when she knew that she was making herself a public target for the supernaturally-gifted crime boss bent on destroying Mayoral candidate Oliver Queen. She knew they were going to come after her, and she refused to run and hide, the same way Oliver refused to back down in the mayoral campaign. Because they are both brave, and tough, and able to endure whatever the consequences may be. She knew she could get hurt or killed, and she chose to put her life on the line to resist Darhk, and now that she's been seriously injured, she's STILL taking that same risk, seemingly without regrets. Saying she was paralyzed "just from riding in a limo" undercuts her bravery, determination, and self-possession. They are ALL risking life and limb, Felicity included. Without any consequences, that risk means nothing.

[Lady Calypso]

Oh! Oh guys! Idea! That I just thought about.

 

Ok, so Nyssa said in this episode that she'll only give the lotus to Oliver if he kills Malcolm, right? Which is definitely problematic because Nyssa can do it herself, and Oliver can also say 'hey, I saved Sara so gimme the flower and we'll call it even' and whatnot. However, we know Oliver won't kill off Malcolm because, as it is stated above, the show lost its balls to do anything like that. I just think they don't want to lose Barrowman. 

 

Ok, but she says 'kill him'. Where else have we heard that phrase before? Oliver and Felicity in the flashforwards. So what if because of Oliver not killing Malcolm next episode, it comes to bite him and Malcolm is the 'he'? That also means Thea probably won't die because Oliver would want to kill Nyssa for not giving him the flower, but Malcolm can be the cause of the death and that is who he actually has to kill this time and not Darhk.

 

*breathes* My theory about the 'him' not being Darhk now has evidence! 

[Cthulhudrew]

Wow. That was a surprisingly touching scene between Roy and Thea at the end there. I've watched WIlla steadily get better as an actress since season one, but is it just me or did Colton Haynes inexplicably get better between this episode and his last appearance? 

 

(Not to mention they finally gave him some worthwhile dialogue and scenes after kind of wasting him towards the end of his run). 

 

Very good episode all around.

*breathes* My theory about the 'him' not being Darhk now has evidence! 

 

I was just thinking that the "him" was a misdirect today myself, although I'm thinking of a different "him" than you; given the scene between Felicity and Oliver in the car, I think that the Calculator might be the one that takes a life that needs 'vengin'.

We have all been wanting Oliver to fight by himself so he jumps through the ceiling and fights six(?) bad guys while Laurel, Diggle and Roy stand in the background and watch. Dumb.

 

Not to mention: Sure, the other three have guns on them ready to shoot if they reach for their weapons, but maybe this would have been a great time to use that (largely useless) Canary Cry?

My main takeaway from this episode was that Colton Haynes has finally been taking acting lessons. Really enjoyed all his scenes.

 

Ah, good. I wasn't the only one then.

[Cthulhudrew]

One other thing that occurred to me while watching this episode: during the (brief) Nyssa/Tatsu fight, I was convinced that the only point of it was to kill off the last Suicide Squad member on the show due to the apparent mandate from on high that there should be no ties to the Suicide Squad movie on Arrow.

 

(Which is even more mind-boggling given an interview with Zack Snyder that I read today where he indicated that the reason they have the movie and tv universes separate is so that they can showcase different aspects of the DC universe and tell different stories with the same characters. Except, you know, the ones that they are making an upcoming movie about for some reason.)

The Calculator and the reveal at the end was good, as was Felicity snarking about his villian name. Of course, my brain then conjured up an equally idiotic idea that the Calculator has a sidekick. "Beware the Calculator and his plucky sidekick, Pocket Protector!" 

 

Now you're being silly.

 

Pocket Protector is clearly a good guy.

[statsgirl]

One: We don't know that the injury is permanent, or what other injuries may or may not be permanent in the future.

True, we don't know that it's permanent (I doubt that it is) but we've been told that it is permanent.  Other than Thea's blood lust, which is magical, and Slade's eye, no other injury has been permanent.

 

Setting aside the question of Felicity's bravery, Oliver, Diggle, Thea, Roy, Laurel, Sara, Nyssa, Malcolm and Ray all go out to physically fight people in combat.  Felicity is the only one who doesn't so it doesn't seem fair that she should be the one most injured.

[Happy Harpy]

Wow. That was a surprisingly touching scene between Roy and Thea at the end there. I've watched WIlla steadily get better as an actress since season one, but is it just me or did Colton Haynes inexplicably get better between this episode and his last appearance?

I never had a  big problem with his acting, but I enjoyed their scenes even more than I expected and I think that chemistry is also at work here. Maybe it was the moon to OTA and O/F chemistry, but CH and WH always had it imo, and it made them do great work together. Maybe his absence allowed to see it better, especially in contrast.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Arrow Brings Back Old Friends
We like Roy! We like Roy!

[bijoux]

Season 1 was another country but I thought there was a functional subway and a series of defunct subway stations where the subway no longer ran.My main takeaway from this episode was that Colton Haynes has finally been taking acting lessons. Really enjoyed all his scenes.

No, Oliver said SC didn't have a subway and then Dig said it used to when he had been a kid, but it was defunct in S1.

[rtalive]

I really liked this episode, it was full of dynamic, old favorites and sad moments, which really moved me. And I liked it that the main villain was not Dark again, because it really bugs me how helpless is GA around him and how we don't know virtually anything about his evil plans and what he wants from the city by this point. Felicity was really good against the Calculator, nice interactions. Her story was really good this episode, although I am confused at what is her position in Palmer Tech. Isn't she the CEO and if so why this costume guy treats her like she is his employee and not with respect.

Bringing back Nyssa and Tatsu to the story was the highlight. I was looking forward to this. I think Nyssa will play big part in the resolution with Merlin and the realization from the others that he needs to die and she takes his place. And in the spirit of joking may be Oliver will befriend after that Darhk, after he stops him from destroying the city. He also looks like a nice guy if you think about it Oliver, why not be friend with him also ;))

In the flashbacks I like that Shado continues to be Oliver's teacher even from the afterlife and shows him the path. And NO, he is not on love with Tatiana, he is just feeling guilty that he killed her brother and that now she is helping him recover from injures, she is just nice to him, because he didn't kill her when was told to. I think that's all, he is just that kind of guy who has instant connection with women and can't kill them brutally but has no problem with that with guys.

Roy coming back for me was useless. He didn't bring anything new to the story. The very emotional goodbye with Thea was vary sad and good but we had one like that before I think. And his realization that if he didn't want to play hero so much might had led him to have beautiful life with Thea was so sad but true, and the only meaningful outcome of his brief return. But as a whole it was really sad that he had to see her not at her best but ill and struggling.

 

 

 

 

[bijoux]

The death brother was Vlad. It doesn't matter, buf someone wrote Luka upthread and it aas bugging me what his name really was.

[tv echo]

I appreciate the interpretation of Nyssa's actions as wanting Oliver to clean up his own mess (and bravo for coming up with something reasonable), but upon further reflection, I still don't buy it.  If Oliver kills Malcolm/Ra's, Oliver becomes entitled to take the new Ra's position (again).  So he'll then turn around and give it to Nyssa?  Instead of fighting for the position of Ra's, Nyssa is being given the position of Ra's?  How does that make her any stronger or less of an usurper than Malcolm?  If her claim to the Ra's throne is one of bloodline, I never got the impression that Ra's was a hereditary position.  I thought that anyone in the League of Assassins (LOA) could challenge Ra's and become the new Ra's by killing the old Ra's. 

 

As for not wanting to go through Team Arrow who would protect Malcolm(!) - look, I get why people like Nyssa, she's gorgeous and a badass fighter - but she is not a hero.  She's a killer.  She's who Sara would've become if Sara hadn't left the LOA or died or gone off to LOT.  Nyssa is an assassin.  She would have no compunction about mowing down every member of Team Arrow in order to become Ra's al Ghul - okay, maybe she'd hesitate before killing her BFF Laurel, but she'd do it. I mean, she was willing to kill Tatsu to get the Lotus and only stopped to talk because they were too evenly matched. The Nyssa I've come to know through the show would challenge Malcolm outright and fight him for the Ra's throne, not engage in devious machinations to get a magical lotus and get Oliver to do it for her.

 

If the only reason Nyssa is forcing Oliver to kill Malcolm for her, by basically holding Thea's life as hostage, is because she knows Oliver would protect Malcolm and she cannot defeat Oliver (for some inexplicable reason), then that seems a more cowardly motivation than I would expect from someone brave like Nyssa.

Edited February 5, 2016 by tv echo

[KirkB]

I appreciate the interpretation of Nyssa's actions as wanting Oliver to clean up his own mess (and bravo for coming up with something reasonable), but upon further reflection, I still don't buy it.  If Oliver kills Malcolm/Ra's, Oliver becomes entitled to take the new Ra's position (again).  So he'll then turn around and give it to Nyssa?  Instead of fighting for the position of Ra's, Nyssa is being given the position of Ra's?  How does that make her any stronger or less of an usurper than Malcolm?  If her claim to the Ra's throne is one of bloodline, I never got the impression that Ra's was a hereditary position.  I thought that anyone in the League of Assassins (LOA) could challenge Ra's and become the new Ra's by killing the old Ra's.

 

 

The show never said it outright but I'm pretty sure you're mostly correct. OId Ra's hinted to Oliver that anyone could come up and challenge him to become the new Ra's if they won. But they also established Nyssa was explicitly Heir to the Demon. That was how she announced herself. Which was why she was so pissed when dad took away her inheritance and gave it to Oliver. And Oliver eventually gave it to Malcolm.

 

As for not wanting to go through Team Arrow who would protect Malcolm(!) - look, I get why people like Nyssa, she's gorgeous and a badass fighter - but she is not a hero.  She's a killer.  She's who Sara would've become if Sara hadn't left the LOA or died or gone off to LOT.  Nyssa is an assassin.  She would have no compunction about mowing down every member of Team Arrow in order to become Ra's al Ghul - okay, maybe she'd hesitate before killing her BFF Laurel, but she'd do it. I mean, she was willing to kill Tatsu to get the Lotus and only stopped to talk because they were too evenly matched. The Nyssa I've come to know through the show would challenge Malcolm outright and fight him for the Ra's throne, not engage in devious machinations to get a magical lotus and get Oliver to do it for her.

 

 

Oliver will protect Malcolm. He's shown that. Thea, weirdly, will too. I'll admit Laurel and Diggle probably wouldn't raise a finger to save him unless Thea or Oliver explicitly asked them too. And even then they'd hesitate. But when I said go through Team Arrow to get to Malcolm, it wasn't about lack of ability or even willingness. To take what is rightfully hers, and it is, I have no doubt Nyssa has earned leadership considering all she's been through, I meant if she had to fight Thea and Diggle and Laurel and Oliver to get to Malcolm she would, even killing Laurel who she likes, but especially the fight with Oliver would wear her down and Malcolm is exactly the kind of guy who would stab her in the back given the opportunity. And even though she clearly had plenty of loyal followers she seems to genuinely care for them, unlike her dad or the current Ra's, and wouldn't want to throw them at her opponents and waste their lives.

 

If the only reason Nyssa is forcing Oliver to kill Malcolm for her, by basically holding Thea's life as hostage, is because she knows Oliver would protect Malcolm and she cannot defeat Oliver (for some inexplicable reason), then that seems a more cowardly motivation than I would expect from someone brave like Nyssa.

 

 

Nyssa's bravery is not in question. I like the character too much to ever accuse her of that. She would fight every person in Star City if she had to. But the show has also demonstrated that Nyssa cannot beat Oliver. Every time they've fought, he's won. Now true, it doesn't make much sense considering she has been training to fight and kill her whole life and he's only been doing it the last few years, but it's his show so of course he's going to. It's not cowardice. If anything, it's honor. Oliver is the one who screwed everything up. He kept Malcolm alive, he made him the new Ra's. Let him fix it. If he fails no great loss. If he succeeds she could always kill Oliver and take over, but if he willingly gives her the leadership in the eyes of the League (never mind the fact she's holding Thea's life over his head and he doesn't want the position anyway) she is the superior.

[AyChihuahua]

If he succeeds she could always kill Oliver and take over,

How? You just said she can't beat Oliver?

 

Not arguing, just curious, bc I don't care at all about the LOA/MM stuff. I want MM to die, but don't think he ever will, and I want the LOA gone, but I don't think it ever will be.

[Xenith22]

Oliver will protect Malcolm. He's shown that. Thea, weirdly, will too. I'll admit Laurel and Diggle probably wouldn't raise a finger to save him unless Thea or Oliver explicitly asked them too. And even then they'd hesitate. But when I said go through Team Arrow to get to Malcolm, it wasn't about lack of ability or even willingness. To take what is rightfully hers, and it is, I have no doubt Nyssa has earned leadership considering all she's been through, I meant if she had to fight Thea and Diggle and Laurel and Oliver to get to Malcolm she would, even killing Laurel who she likes, but especially the fight with Oliver would wear her down and Malcolm is exactly the kind of guy who would stab her in the back given the opportunity. And even though she clearly had plenty of loyal followers she seems to genuinely care for them, unlike her dad or the current Ra's, and wouldn't want to throw them at her opponents and waste their lives.

Yeah...but then she could have just made Oliver stand down and let her fight/kill Malcolm in exchange for the Lotus instead of having Oliver kill him?    I mean if Oliver is really willing to kill Malcolm himself, then he would certainly be willing to let her do it?  Thea is in a coma so can not oppose anyone.  Diggle would unlikely oppose Oliver to save Malcolm at the cost of Thea (especially given his current plot line of saving his own sibling).  Laurel...who knows what she would do depending on which direction her moral compass is pointing on any given day, but she often gets her butt handed to her by common street thugs, so Nyssa could incapacitate her with two arms behind her back and blindfolded before confronting Malcolm.

 

I really just kind of hope Nyssa is smart enough to realize that Team Arrow has faked multiple deaths at this point and does not fall for anything...

Edited February 5, 2016 by Xenith22

[KirkB]

How? You just said she can't beat Oliver?

 

Not arguing, just curious, bc I don't care at all about the LOA/MM stuff. I want MM to die, but don't think he ever will, and I want the LOA gone, but I don't think it ever will be.

 

 

I know you're not arguing and it's a good question. I just meant, that could be her plan. Though, strictly speaking, she might not be able to beat him in a fight but if his guard is down is wouldn't be too hard for her to walk up behind him and stab him in the back. Or maybe sneak a bomb onto Felicity's wheelchair. Security does seem to be pretty lax with these people.

 

Frankly, I agree with you. I was hoping Malcolm becoming Ra's would take him out of the show. As much as I like John Barrowman, Malcolm and the LoA have taken up way more of Arrow's screen time than they deserve.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oliver will protect Malcolm. He's shown that. Thea, weirdly, will too. I'll admit Laurel and Diggle probably wouldn't raise a finger to save him unless Thea or Oliver explicitly asked them too. And even then they'd hesitate.

Laurel would roll her eyes and Diggle would give a grumpy but resigned sigh before actually going in to protect Malcolm.

[tarotx]

Nyssa was always super emotional when she has fought Oliver. It's one of Nyssa's flaws. Now that she's over Sara perhaps she won't be as emotional and instead a true leader to what the LOA has seemed until the stupidness of season 3. I do hope she doesn't fall for the death. I mean if it makes her the leader of the League and they would leave for good than I could deal with it.

But considering she's in episode 15 seems the League is still around :/

 

I finally read some more people thinking maybe Thea will be the one to kill whoever is in the grave and it's because of Malcolm. Maybe he will do something to prevent the Lotus being given to Thea but Thea kills some more random LOA. But then gets bad again and then loses it like she did on Anarchy.  And Oliver has to kill Malcolm for good because he's the him so Nyssa will give him the Lotus. A little different than my original far out theory but at least I'm not a lone in thinking that it might be the more the killer Oliver is emotional over than the death ;) Though I really still think it's Lance killed by whoever he is....

Edited February 5, 2016 by tarotx

[EmeraldArcher]

I cannot believe they legit had Oliver thank Malcolm, without whom Thea never would have needed to be pitted in the first place.

Between lying to Felicity, ditching her in the hospital and, now, making buds with Malcolm I'm starting to think that, for me, the season 4 villain is Oliver Queen. Which is a real shame considering how invested I was in the growth he was showing up until the crossover.

 

I can't tell you how much this statement about Oliver being the villain this season seems the best explanation for his continued case for fuckwittery. I would much rather believe that the writers are cunning and using our stubborn goodwill towards Oliver and willingness to overlook his awfulness as long as we can ogle his shirtless lounging and journal keeping so that they can truly pull off the game-changing, epic reveal of Evil!Oliver.

 

Because, seriously, how could a hero do any of the following:

1. Shake hands and thank the man responsible for killing his father, best friend, 503 innocent people, scores more, and who mind-raped his sister into murdering a dear friend, bringing on the wrath of RAG, leading to his own "death" and his sister's "death," and her being on the brink of "death" again. All of this completely nullifies his hero status.
2. Seek a meeting and deal with the man responsible for his fiancee being shot, nearly dying, and being permanently paralyzed. Seriously--that's one of the most heinous things he's ever wanted to do.  This completely nullifies his hero status.
3. Lie to his fiancee's face multiple times and being too cowardly to tell her the truth about his son. This nullifies his hero status.

 

Seriously, he is behaving like a villain.  He consorts with super villains and is ultimately too cowardly to be honest. Oliver Queen is no hero.

[kismet]

Well didn't they promise us OQ would go dark this season?? Shame on us for assuming it would be in the FB.  :)

 

I don't think he is acting on villain level just yet. Perhaps heading towards the path of anti-hero. He's definitely on the misguided road to nowhere good fast. But in the end I think he's just the flawed human being he's always been. We've just spent the past 4 years putting the title of superhero or hero on him. He never asked us to call him that. In fact he vehemently denied or refused to accept those accolades on multiple occasions. So perhaps its double shame on us for elevating him to a status he never claimed to be. :)

[AyChihuahua]

I don't think he is acting on villain level just yet. Perhaps heading towards the path of anti-hero. He's definitely on the misguided road to nowhere good fast. But in the end I think he's just the flawed human being he's always been. We've just spent the past 4 years putting the title of superhero or hero on him. He never asked us to call him that. In fact he vehemently denied or refused to accept those accolades on multiple occasions. So perhaps its double shame on us for elevating him to a status he never claimed to be. :)

He kind of accepted that title when he went on tv and gave a speech about giving SC hope and such.

 

I think he's a collaborator at this point. Out-of-show they're having him buddy-buddy with Malcolm to give Malcolm something to do, but in-show it's the same old problem with that idea, which is that Malcolm is awful and needs to die.

 

And yeah, thinking about making some kind of a deal with the man responsible for paralyzing your fiancée, like a month ago? Yikes.

[EmeraldArcher]

He kind of accepted that title when he went on tv and gave a speech about giving SC hope and such.

 

I think he's a collaborator at this point. Out-of-show they're having him buddy-buddy with Malcolm to give Malcolm something to do, but in-show it's the same old problem with that idea, which is that Malcolm is awful and needs to die.

 

And yeah, thinking about making some kind of a deal with the man responsible for paralyzing your fiancée, like a month ago? Yikes.

Someone smarter than me pointed it out, but I wanted to include that in my list of reasons that I can't accept Oliver as a hero. And I agree that he has spoken about the Light too much this season to be actively avoiding the hero label. But, heroes aren't cowards, and they don't slink off to deal with villains. Especially villains responsible for killing loved ones and brutally attacking one's fiancée.

 

Oliver isn't just a flawed human; he's a truly horrible human being.

[apinknightmare]

Seek a meeting and deal with the man responsible for his fiancee being shot, nearly dying, and being permanently paralyzed. Seriously--that's one of the most heinous things he's ever wanted to do.  This completely nullifies his hero status.

 

I don't think it's heinous at all. It's not like he's trying to make a deal with Darhk for some sweet real estate or something. Thea is literally dying from something that Darhk helped get rid of for a time, and he wants to do what he can to keep her alive. As far as they know there isn't anyone else who can help her.

Edited February 5, 2016 by apinknightmare

[bijoux]

It's stupid, but not heinous in my book. Like, honestly, what do you even have to offer in exchange, Oliver? 

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I'll be honest: I'm a little baffled by this conversation. To my eye, Oliver has been a pretty model citizen/vigilante/loved one this season (for him, which I'll admit is grading on a curve, but still, that's growth), aside from two dumb mistakes (the lie about William and avoiding the hospital for a time while Felicity was there) and the near-miss in this episode. We have no idea what DD would have demanded in exchange, or whether Oliver would have ultimately agreed to it--we don't know that because the writers had no intention of ever following through on it. It was done only to show how desperate Oliver still is when it comes to saving Thea's life, and how untenable that mentality is.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[kismet]

A magical tattoo, a beat-up picture of LL, the hosin, that magical rock he got this episode, his culinary skills, his secret stash of magical herbs and of course probably a lock of hair from his gone but not forgotten mane.

 

It's stupid, but not heinous in my book. Like, honestly, what do you even have to offer in exchange, Oliver? 

Just in case you're wondering, I bet DD would choose the lock of hair. :) After all it is the hair cut that brought down OQ who could kick ass and still make ridiculous fb work in previous seasons. Since I attach all failures of these s4 fbs to the lack of wig & #Poppy.

Edited February 5, 2016 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

It's stupid, but not heinous in my book. Like, honestly, what do you even have to offer in exchange, Oliver? 

How come? He paralyzed Felicity like two months ago. Wanting to work with him now seems more than dumb to me. Like hey dude, I know you're the cause of the bullet that put my fiancée in a wheelchair, seemingly for life, but let's make a deal!