S03.E10: Celebrations

[okerry]

But this isn't true. And he talked a LOT about getting used to not partying as much as he had before. I don't understand why he is being vilified for something he did NOT do. He invited Jenna and her boyfriend over TO MEET HIS WIFE. She came, boyfriend didn't. You have no evidence to suggest that they are or have ever been fuck buddies or have even looked at each other with more than platonic interest EVER in the history of their relationship. Is it not possible that they are really actually just friends and he's not lying about that? Is that totally outside the realm of possibilities? Or does him having a friend who is not the same sex automatically suggest that he is disrespecting his wife and putting said friend in front of her. Would you say the same if Tres had a gay friend? He can't be platonic friends with a gay male either? 

Somehow I didn't make my point clear. It's not that Tres has a female platonic friend. It's the fact that he puts the feelings of that female platonic friend above the feelings of his wife. That's why this is a problem.

[okerry]

 

How is this any different than what he did??? He invited Jenna to a big house party where Vanessa was there and a bunch of their other friends were there too. He also invited her boyfriend. He didn't go out alone with Jenna for lunch. How is this putting Jenna first? Are we watching the same show?

Again, it's a problem because Tres' wife was clearly uncomfortable with the situation but Tres was just worried about how Jenna felt. That is a preview of how the rest of the "marriage" is going to go, and that's why Vanessa is so uncomfortable - because she knows that how it will go, and what does she do now? She's married, but Tres isn't. No legal ceremony is going to change that. It never does.

[allthelight]

Somehow I didn't make my point clear. It's not that Tres has a female platonic friend. It's the fact that he puts the feelings of that female platonic friend above the feelings of his wife. That's why this is a problem.

 

If Jenna was a male friend or Treys' father/mother and Vanessa was jealous of them - would you still be in favor of Tres cutting them off? What man would he be in that case? Just another doormat like Neil.

 

I'd understand your position if Jenna had done somehow something really wrong. But she hasn't. Vanessa didn't like her because she's an attractive female friend of Tres'. That's the whole extent of Jenna's crimes.

[Soup333]

Again, it's a problem because Tres' wife was clearly uncomfortable with the situation but Tres was just worried about how Jenna felt. That is a preview of how the rest of the "marriage" is going to go, and that's why Vanessa is so uncomfortable - because she knows that how it will go, and what does she do now? She's married, but Tres isn't. No legal ceremony is going to change that. It never does.

 

How was he supposed to know that it would upset Vanessa? What was he supposed to do then, kick Jenna out. "Sorry, but my wife is insecure with your existence. You gotta leave." That is completely ridiculous and rude as hell to someone who he's known for years. 

[izabella]

Somehow I didn't make my point clear. It's not that Tres has a female platonic friend. It's the fact that he puts the feelings of that female platonic friend above the feelings of his wife. That's why this is a problem.

 

He put his own feelings first - he has a friend who has been his friend for years and he doesn't want to just dump her as a friend.  That would make him feel like an asshole.

 

Vanessa is also putting her own feelings first - she doesn't like it that Tres has a female friend.  Then she took it a step further, and was actually rude to the friend who was invited to their home.

[allthelight]

How was he supposed to know that it would upset Vanessa? What was he supposed to do then, kick Jenna out. "Sorry, but my wife is insecure with your existence. You gotta leave." That is completely ridiculous and rude as hell to someone who he's known for years. 

Exactly. First, at that stage he probably didn't even notice the jealousy. But even if he did - on what basis should he have kicked out a longtime friend? 'Sorry Jenna, you've been there for me for all those years and you've done nothing wrong today, but my wife wants you out because you are attractive and a friend of mine'? In that case, he'd be a poor excuse of a human being.

Edited February 6, 2016 by allthelight

[Soup333]

Look, I totally agree that people who put their friendships above their spouses should not be married. Spouse is probably getting the short end of the stick in that scenario. But that just simply did not happen in this situation. It didn't, unless there was some secret footage that I wasn't privy to. Tres and Vanessa didn't get matched because he's a mind reader and she needs someone to predict what will or won't set off her insecurities (the experts would never stop bragging about this if this had been the case). She was insecure because she's insecure with him having a friend who has a vagina. Tres didn't cause it. Jenna didn't cause it. He did not on camera say anything remotely disrespectful about his relationship with Jenna. He was still hugged up on his wife while Jenna was there. I don't understand how this is getting spun into him putting Jenna's needs first, disrespecting Vanessa, not really wanting the marriage, etc. 

[allthelight]

But when did that happen though? WHEN did he say, "It's your problem and I don't want to hear about it?" 

 

 

Yeah. One thing you can't fault him for is listening. It's Vanessa who gets upset by things and avoids difficult talks. I'm not really judging her for it, because as I was saying, I can see a lot of myself in her, but this cannot be put on Tres. If she wants to be heard, she needs to talk. Using the dog as an excuse and walking out on Tres was destructive behavior. You might get forgiven for it a few times, but ultimately it kills a relationship.

[Evil Queen]

Let me just say about the Tres/Vanessa show this....I saw the show trying to put a spin on something that was just a friendship. The way the camera shot them and the editing was to make it seem like something it wasn't IMO. So you will have those coming away from this episode seeing one thing and others seeing it another way. To me Vanessa came off very awkward and rude at times in it. No matter what I still think Tres is not over his single days and partying it up but I don't see his friendship with Jenna as anything more then just them being good friends for a long time. Vanessa should have communicated to him she was uncomfortable at the party...IF she was. She could have pulled him aside to the bedroom and let him know or told him right after everyone left but she left that night. Which running out showed her being immature in this. If she needs the breather to gather thoughts before discussing there is a way to say so without walking out as well. 

[frenchtoast]

That's enough beating of the horse and interrogations of each other. You have all agreed to disagree and are now moving past the discussion of married couples having friends. It's gone past civil discourse into sniping back and forth.

 

[princelina]

Is it a regional Southern expression?  Or is it age-related, as in used mostly by younger people?  I'm wondering if it's similar to the word "bro", which has recently taken on a life of its own with the 30 and under set.  Now, I understand that word because I remember it being used when I was a teenager in the same way.  Then it faded for a long time and suddenly came back in style within the last decade.  But "my girl" I'm not familiar with.

Not sure - we are mid-west and mid-40s.  I think he and his high school friends use the expression, whereas his later friends do not, so I always assumed it was something that started with them in high school.  Although, come to think of it, he went to a racially diverse city high school so maybe it was a black thing that they got in on?  (I say this because I initially responded to a poster who said "Maybe it's a black thing" and he uses it and we are not.)  That's all I have :)

[Neurochick]

Hmmm....I think you are onto something here and not just about Vanessa and David but by all of the three seasons of participants in this 'experiment'.  These people do not act as if they are looking at this as an arranged marriage which could have some downsides, they are looking at this as finding a relationship via personal assistants who do all the 'work' of figuring out 'perfect' matches and then having them delivered by Amazon.com.  It's an instant gratification marriage that are ALL doomed to fail because the expectations are even higher than a 'traditional' marriage.  These people are expecting perfection and perfect matches and even in a best case scenario, they aren't and they are ultimately disappointed. 

 

I really agree with this.  It feels like these people want to be married, but they don't want to do the work of actually getting to know someone, they don't want to take the time.  They want what they want when they want it.  Part of the "work" of getting to know someone is figuring out if you see life the same way, of if you don't, can you compromise or not?  I don't think any of these people want to do that.  They just want an instant relationship.

[Snarklepuss]

There's one word missing from all these discussions of whether married folks can/should have platonic friends of the opposite sex: Respect.

 

Most people here seem to think that anything short of sexual contact ought to be okay between, say, a married man and his female friend. If they're talking on the phone or on FB, meeting up for lunch, she's calling him for help with a flat tire, etc. etc., that should all be okay as long as "nothing is going on."

 

But in all of these instances, this man is disrespecting his wife by allowing his female friend to come first. THAT is the problem with stuff like this. Maybe his wife would like to go to lunch with her husband - or, even worse, husband says, "Well, my wife's not available for lunch today anyway, so why not ask female friend? I mean, nothing's going on." And his wife is expected to eat this shit sandwich and smile, because otherwise she's insecure and controlling. And a bitch.

 

This kind of thing destroys relationships and destroys marriages, because too much time and energy gets drained off into other people while the spouses are expected to tolerate it because "nothing's going on." When the truth is, the spouses are sick and tired of being disrespected by their own husbands and wives by being shoved into second place for a "friend."

 

You can destroy your marriage with this even if you never actually do anything sexual with your "friend," and it seems amazingly stupid to me to throw away a relationship by putting a "friend" first over the needs and desires of the person you're married to. This is what people are objecting to. It's disrespectful, selfish, and cruel to act like this, and it never, ever gets better. It only gets worse and worse and worse as the boundaries are pushed to the limit.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: People who want to behave like this, who demand the right to put a "friend" first and their spouse second whenever they feel like it, Should Not Be Married. Period. And probably don't really want to be married anyway, because this is an excellent, excellent way to sabotage a marriage and still look like the good guy because everyone will give poor little you a pass since your wife is so unreasonable, insecure and complaining even though "nothing happened."

 

Since this post was in direct response to mine, I just want to say one thing and then be gone with it, so moderator, please indulge me..  :)

 

I think everything needs to be done with judgment and discretion when it comes to friends of either sex when one is married.  There are certain boundaries I make sure to observe with all of my friends.  One of them is making sure Mr. S is OK with me going out on a certain day or night with a friend and of course he knows who they are and where we're going.  No secrets and nothing last minute or if it conflicts with prior plans with Mr. S.  And of course I don't do it so often that it interferes with my relationship with him either.  In fact, he comes along a lot of the time because my friends love him and some know him for several decades by now.  And my long girlfriend phone conversations often take place when he is working late.  And any of the male friends I have left are now Facebook pals who IM me now and then, but when they were more in the picture I used special discretion about when, how and where we got together, which was often with Mr. S after we got married.  So I get what you're saying about respect and how that can easily be transgressed if the unwritten "rules" of friends and marriage aren't observed.

 

That said, I don't see any evidence that any of this was transgressed here on the show.  I'm presuming that Tres was open and up-front with Vanessa about inviting the female friend.  He didn't see her in private and they were in a large group.  Plus someone said up-thread that he admitted on Social Media that he had invited her boyfriend too but he couldn't make it.  So it looks to me like Tres took steps to make sure he observed the unwritten rules of marriage concerning friendships, but Vanessa reacted the way she did anyway.  I pretty much buy Neurochick's interpretation of her response as being more about Jenna being an attractive white or lighter skinned woman and reading into it and letting it feed into her insecurities than it was about Tres.

 

OK, that's it, that's what I think and won't post any more on this, I promise!

[CindyK]

Really tired of the trope that every black woman simply must be jealous of lighter skinned or white women around her guy. I actually see very little in Vanessa's individual profile to suggest that. I think that "Jenna" may have fueled Vanessa's insecurity that Tres is still a player, but I think it had little to do with race. I think any cute girl would have sent up a red flag for Vanessa.

[kam]

Really tired of the trope that every black woman simply must be jealous of lighter skinned or white women around her guy. I actually see very little in Vanessa's individual profile to suggest that. I think that "Jenna" may have fueled Vanessa's insecurity that Tres is still a player, but I think it had little to do with race. I think any cute girl would have sent up a red flag for Vanessa.

Jenna is a cute girl...nothing special IMO. I doubt Vanessa cared if she was purple or blue, she just didn't get good vibes from her. I don't know when it became about race.

[Jassie99]

Vanessa mentioned in her interview with Jamie that Jenna was barely around and seemed to be in a rush so she didn't get much interaction with her. IMO she seemed a bit dismissive of Jenna in her interview. So take that for whatever it is. I don't know how race came into it at all. I think Vanessa is insecure and this process is bringing all of that to the forefront rapidly and unfortunately for her,for the world to see and scrutinize.

[floridaskixx]

Really tired of the trope that every black woman simply must be jealous of lighter skinned or white women around her guy. I actually see very little in Vanessa's individual profile to suggest that. I think that "Jenna" may have fueled Vanessa's insecurity that Tres is still a player, but I think it had little to do with race. I think any cute girl would have sent up a red flag for Vanessa.

girlll (or boy), say it again for the people in the back!! we are not jealous of every white girl we see!! I tried to explain this but you said it so much better

[Gator Stud]

Really tired of the trope that every black woman simply must be jealous of lighter skinned or white women around her guy. I actually see very little in Vanessa's individual profile to suggest that. I think that "Jenna" may have fueled Vanessa's insecurity that Tres is still a player, but I think it had little to do with race. I think any cute girl would have sent up a red flag for Vanessa.

Now that I've seen the back and forth about the situation I changed my mind about the whole Vanessa thing. Tres invited his friend and her boyfriend. Vanessa was insecure that a woman she considered attractive was Tres friend. If the friend was unattractive I don't think she would have any problem with it. It might have been because the woman was lighter. Who knows. Vanessa was insecure. Also too sometimes black women don't like it when successful black men date white women. I understand why.

[SnarkKitty]

Can we pin that "no social media/any media in the show topic threads" post? Especially with a show like this, every thread there's some "well, I know because on Twitter they admitted they were never even married!" or "Her friends are talking and THEY say" type of post that either spoils some aspect, or comes threateningly close for those of us who would like to follow along and learn the outcome at the end.

 

Hmmm....I think you are onto something here and not just about Vanessa and David but by all of the three seasons of participants in this 'experiment'.  These people do not act as if they are looking at this as an arranged marriage which could have some downsides, they are looking at this as finding a relationship via personal assistants who do all the 'work' of figuring out 'perfect' matches and then having them delivered by Amazon.com.  It's an instant gratification marriage that are ALL doomed to fail because the expectations are even higher than a 'traditional' marriage.  These people are expecting perfection and perfect matches and even in a best case scenario, they aren't and they are ultimately disappointed. 

 

I think the only one of the group who doesn't fit this profile is Neal, who with is own family experience with arranged marriages, has a different mindset about the amount of time it can take to make it to true love and respect, and what type of long, great relationship can come of it. The rest just expect being married will change their spouses behavior, with no real effort on their own part.

 

It's so sad how far Neil has retreated in presence. He was a totally different person in the first couple of episodes. I also saw more warmth in the interaction with Sammie than I've ever seen between Neil and Sam. I guess it was nice to commiserate with another one of Sam's victims. 

 

I noticed Neil's very good female friend wasn't at the cookout, and probably on purpose. I would like to have heard her take on how Neal is acting, since unlike the friends she knows Neil in a relationship. I wonder if she thought he was acting himself, or was really retreating, kowtowing, or seeming sad even without admitting it.

[Snarklepuss]

Now that I've seen the back and forth about the situation I changed my mind about the whole Vanessa thing. Tres invited his friend and her boyfriend. Vanessa was insecure that a woman she considered attractive was Tres friend. If the friend was unattractive I don't think she would have any problem with it. It might have been because the woman was lighter. Who knows. Vanessa was insecure. Also too sometimes black women don't like it when successful black men date white women. I understand why.

 

I agree, and the way Neurochick explained it sounded like it could be a factor with Vanessa.  Vanessa might know that Tres has dated white women before and there is of course a lot of public opinion online in which many people say that a lot of black men prefer white or light skinned women of any race.  I don't know if any of that is true or true in this case, but it is something that could possibly contribute to her insecurity with Jenna.  Of course, Jenna being attractive is probably the biggest  contributing factor.

[Jack Sampson]

Really tired of the trope that every black woman simply must be jealous of lighter skinned or white women around her guy. I actually see very little in Vanessa's individual profile to suggest that. I think that "Jenna" may have fueled Vanessa's insecurity that Tres is still a player, but I think it had little to do with race. I think any cute girl would have sent up a red flag for Vanessa.

They made a whole point in the matchmaking special about how they could barely find any black man willing to marry a black woman. Maybe it's an issue in Atlanta. Maybe, knowing that, Vanessa is more on guard than she would otherwise be.

[Snarklepuss]

Really tired of the trope that every black woman simply must be jealous of lighter skinned or white women around her guy. I actually see very little in Vanessa's individual profile to suggest that. I think that "Jenna" may have fueled Vanessa's insecurity that Tres is still a player, but I think it had little to do with race. I think any cute girl would have sent up a red flag for Vanessa.

 

Given Jack Sampson's post above about the show making a point of them not being able to find enough black men who wanted to marry black women, I think the issue is very relevant to the discussion, as relevant as discussing Ashley's stated preference for guys with darker hair and eyes than David and how that has messed with the success of their relationship.  Vanessa may know all too well that she has a lot of competition from white or light skinned women of any race and it may be working on her and making her wonder if she is really Tres' preference.  It's not about applying a too-broad generalization in this case.

[Neurochick]

They made a whole point in the matchmaking special about how they could barely find any black man willing to marry a black woman. Maybe it's an issue in Atlanta. Maybe, knowing that, Vanessa is more on guard than she would otherwise be.

 

Thank you very much Jack, that was my point.  If they could barely find a black man who wanted to marry a black woman then I don't blame Vanessa for being on guard.  

 

My point also was if you look at statistics as to who marries people of other races, black men marry "out" by 25%, while black women marry out 12%.   I don't know why that is, but that's what statistics state.

[KnoxForPres]

I feel in a way I'm dating these people too and this week I realized I can't stand how Ashley talks. I've noticed it all along, but the slow robot-like with the last word of the sentence going "up" has become more than I can bear.

And she loves to bake and uses frosting in a tub. Somehow her flag cake was supposed to stand for Ashley really giving it her all. The hell?

David's not hot enough to pull off his "funny" 4th of July costume.

Were there any sides at Neal and Sam's picnic? I didn't see even a bag of BBQ Lays chips.

This is my first season of this show (my mom has watched it all along and talked me into it) and I'm not a huge fan. There has been no progression- every episode is like the prior.

What I notice lacking in all three is laughter. In the beginning of a relationship, there's nothing better than laughing til your stomach hurts. Where's the joy? Why so serious? Shit, get lit on the lame strawberry vodka drink and just let loose and live a little.

[Jack Sampson]

What I notice lacking in all three is laughter. In the beginning of a relationship, there's nothing better than laughing til your stomach hurts. Where's the joy? Why so serious? Shit, get lit on the lame strawberry vodka drink and just let loose and live a little.

Same goes for sex. Even Vanessa and Tres have only had sex a handful of times at best. Where's the spending the day in bed phase? Maybe it's different as you get older, but none of my friends would wait this long for sex. I wouldn't have waited past the honeymoon trip.

And the guys aren't even trying really - that alone lets you know that these people don't really like each other. For example, David's trying his hardest to make things work, he's even making wild claims about loving his robot "wife", but even he admits he would have moved on a while ago IRL.

[okerry]

Hmmm....I think you are onto something here and not just about Vanessa and David but by all of the three seasons of participants in this 'experiment'.  These people do not act as if they are looking at this as an arranged marriage which could have some downsides, they are looking at this as finding a relationship via personal assistants who do all the 'work' of figuring out 'perfect' matches and then having them delivered by Amazon.com.  It's an instant gratification marriage that are ALL doomed to fail because the expectations are even higher than a 'traditional' marriage.  These people are expecting perfection and perfect matches and even in a best case scenario, they aren't and they are ultimately disappointed. 

I think you have very much hit the nail on the head with this. I think the original idea of MAFS was supposed to be, "If these couples are legally married they'll be more inclined to stay together and work out their differences." But in some ways, due to what you mentioned, there's almost *less* pressure to stay together, since this was something that was supposed to be delivered to exact specifications. If you order something and it doesn't measure up, you're entitled to send it back and get a refund since you didn't get what you "paid" for. Most of the people on the show are acting just this way.

 

That doesn't excuse the poor job of the experts, of course, but when the participants go into it expecting to do little to no work because, after all, it's already been done for them, hasn't it, it's pretty much doomed to fail. The modern age has conditioned people to expect instant gratification, especially when it comes to dating, and this show just reinforces that even though I don't think that was the intention at the beginning.

[KnoxForPres]

Same goes for sex. Even Vanessa and Tres have only had sex a handful of times at best. Where's the spending the day in bed phase? Maybe it's different as you get older, but none of my friends would wait this long for sex. I wouldn't have waited past the honeymoon trip.

And the guys aren't even trying really - that alone lets you know that these people don't really like each other. For example, David's trying his hardest to make things work, he's even making wild claims about loving his robot "wife", but even he admits he would have moved on a while ago IRL.

Yes!!!!!!! They don't even have to do the old "I don't normally move this fast" line.

Now, I wouldn't want to jump into bed with someone I had zip chemistry with, but I still think I'd have a strawberry vodka night of Yahtzee and Netflix and go- ya know, we should do this.

Gotta say- it would take a lot of that drink to make me want to with Neal, but I still think I would. At least to just hopefully have a little fun and know how it is behind closed doors.

They're just all so serious and weird.

I'm a girl and was thinking I would have hit the town when Vanessa took off and needed to be alone. Even "fun" Tres was in his bed sulking to a camera. If ever you had a green light, that's it.

Now- all of the above is probably why I'm still single at 36. I want a fun marriage should I take the plunge. And man, these people aren't even willing to try a bit of it. Let's mope and be serious and have pre made hamburgers from the frozen section. No!

Edited February 7, 2016 by KnoxForPres

[Jack Sampson]

Yes!!!!!!! They don't even have to do the old "I don't normally move this fast" line.

Now, I wouldn't want to jump into bed with someone I had zip chemistry with, but I still think I'd have a strawberry vodka night of Yahtzee and Netflix and go- ya know, we should do this.

Gotta say- it would take a lot of that drink to make me want to with Neal, but I still think I would. At least to just hopefully have a little fun and know how it is behind closed doors.

Imagine that conversation:

"I'll do you Neil, but I might have to get loaded first."

[KnoxForPres]

Imagine that conversation:

"I'll do you Neil, but I might have to get loaded first."

"You took the words out of my mouth, Sam. Great minds and all"

Haha!

[MsPH]

I don't think they should have sex if they're really not feeling it, but I find it pretty unreal that two of these women haven't even given their husband a peck on the lips in 5 weeks. I thought I was a prude, but these two are like nuns or something. Hell, last week they thought their knees touching their husbands' knees was too intimate. Where on earth did they find these people?! How are we supposed to believe they still have a chance of turning this into a happily ever after, when they can barely stand to touch their husbands? Even Jamie started making out with Doug on the honeymoon. Ashley and Sam are making her seem like a proper hussy.

[Gator Stud]

Yes!!!!!!! They don't even have to do the old "I don't normally move this fast" line.

Now, I wouldn't want to jump into bed with someone I had zip chemistry with.

Gotta say- it would take a lot of that drink to make me want to with Neal, but I still think I would. At least to just hopefully have a little fun and know how it is behind closed doors.

I feel the same way you do. None of the women are my type, but if I was on the show, I'd give them a try in bed. I would insist that Sam take a shower beforehand though.

[Kareem]

I feel the same way you do. None of the women are my type, but if I was on the show, I'd give them a try in bed. I would insist that Sam take a shower beforehand though.

haha. Nothing that steam cleaning and duct tape can't fix. Watch out for circling buzzards over Ashley. ;)

[Jack Sampson]

I feel the same way you do. None of the women are my type, but if I was on the show, I'd give them a try in bed. I would insist that Sam take a shower beforehand though.

And Stashley would have to wax.

[Lynnie76]

I don't know how to quote so this is in reply to "trying". It has occured to me that the main difference between MAFS and "arranged" marriages is that in. "arranged" marriages, culturally, there is no divorce. So you pretty much have to keep trying or be miserable. In addition, there is a lot of support to help things (out of family pride if nothing else). Our MAFS couples have a six week out (as Ashley well knows). In addition our couples don't have to sleep in the same house or deal with how to balance time together with time alone in the same place. I think that figuring out how to enjoy life without losing that sense of self is one of the hardest parts of learning to live within a relationship. Of course the longer you stay together, continuing to make adjustments the easier it becomes even if you don't "love" each other at first. If it was either try or be miserable forever I would hope even Ashley would start making an effort.

[Snarklepuss]

I think you have very much hit the nail on the head with this. I think the original idea of MAFS was supposed to be, "If these couples are legally married they'll be more inclined to stay together and work out their differences." But in some ways, due to what you mentioned, there's almost *less* pressure to stay together, since this was something that was supposed to be delivered to exact specifications. If you order something and it doesn't measure up, you're entitled to send it back and get a refund since you didn't get what you "paid" for. Most of the people on the show are acting just this way.

 

That doesn't excuse the poor job of the experts, of course, but when the participants go into it expecting to do little to no work because, after all, it's already been done for them, hasn't it, it's pretty much doomed to fail. The modern age has conditioned people to expect instant gratification, especially when it comes to dating, and this show just reinforces that even though I don't think that was the intention at the beginning.

 

ITA, and I've said before that I suspect that the show is at least in part responsible for this.  They probably had to push the "If you don't like the person you can just get a divorce" angle to get people to participate.   Unfortunately it attracts people that aren't really serious about settling down.  But I'm also beginning to think that marrying people before they get to know each other tends to sabotage the relationship even if it might have had a chance of succeeding under normal circumstances.  It puts too much pressure on the participants to rush their feelings to match their marital status and that is usually doomed to fail because feelings often take time to develop and the very act of putting that pressure on oneself (or one's partner) tends to sabotage any chance of them developing.  Feelings need to develop with no outside intervention or perceived pressure and this show just doesn't allow that to happen.  Of course there are exceptions like Cortney and Jason, who probably just hit it off so well right off the bat that nothing could sabotage their feelings from developing.  Plus being ready for a relationship is a prerequisite.

 

I just don't feel like any of these people can possibly be looking at this as a lifetime commitment when the first thing on their minds at the altar is that they can just get out of it at any time if they aren't happy with the person.  Even if they were to meet someone and date them they wouldn't be thinking of an escape clause unless they were a real commitment-phobe, but this show kind of puts them in that head space right away, which is not good, IMO.

 

When I think back to when I first met Mr. S., on our first date we hit it off so well that I knew in my gut right then and there that he was "the one".  Of course I didn't let him know that right away because I didn't want to make him feel rushed.  Plus my mother was telling me every day not to spill the beans because it might ruin things.  But he was pretty much feeling the same thing at the same time so it didn't take long for both of us to open up about it.  And even then we didn't get married for 2 years after we met so we had plenty of time to figure things out before the pressure of an official lifetime commitment.  It's one thing to feel it in your heart and another to have a piece of paper telling you that you HAVE to do it.  That little piece of paper is not a good idea when people haven't developed the feeling of commitment in their hearts yet.  Nobody's heart likes to be TOLD what to do, LOL.

[Lynnie76]

Thanks Snarklepuss for saying so well what I'd been thinking.

[still hoping]

Just have to jump back in to defend Trey - if Jenna had attended the wedding then what? Look how people - and Sam- freaked when Neil introduced his bff gal pal - who has not been seen since.

IMHO I don't think this is an "easy" show for the participants - it attracts people desperate to be married and/or desperate to be on tv = Sam Sean..Jamie and so forth

I believe the "success" of Jason and Courtney - and the young couple in AU - was due to them being young..with less baggage.

I will say my high hopes for Tres and Vanessa are fading - I agree with whoever said they saw some of Ryan (Jacklyn) in Tres - IMHO Ryan wanted to "consummate" and once he did he realized he really didn't like her loud over the top personality. I think Tres has been sincere but at some point the dog, the way she acted at the party, and then running away that night...not looking good.

It is too bad that Vanessa can't just play it cool - be fun and get to know each other. She is going to drive him away I fear.

[moonxyz]

Vanessa isn't driving Tres away. Vanessa has the right to be conservative, dislike drunk frat boy behaviour and not be ok with her husband having female friends.

It's her personality and it's what she believes in. Vanessa is criticised for wanting to change Tres but she is supposed to change everything to be less uptight and in order to not "drive him away"?

 

It's obvious that this match like the others is a fail. If Vanessa was paired with a more stable guy that was more of a homebody, there would be little to no issues. Tres and Vanessa are not compatible. It's just another case of the experts ignoring what the contestant probably requested, but imposing someone with that they think need and pairing people based on trauma or other nonsense:

 

Tres and Vanessa are a good match because they were both abandoned. tres is more outgoing so it will create "balance"
Neil and Ashley are a good match because they are both of mixed heritage. Sam is more outgoing so it will create "balance"
David and Ashley are a good match because they are very religious. David is more outgoing so it will create "balance"

[James79]

I think Vanessa should of did what Neil did and go outside with Jenna. Get to know her and ask her about Tres since Jenna knows more about Tres than Vanessa. Vanessa could've gained a new friend and more insight and information about Tres. It would've been a win-win situation and there would be no jealously..that's my take on it.

[Empress1]

I don't think they should have sex if they're really not feeling it, but I find it pretty unreal that two of these women haven't even given their husband a peck on the lips in 5 weeks. I thought I was a prude, but these two are like nuns or something. Hell, last week they thought their knees touching their husbands' knees was too intimate. Where on earth did they find these people?! How are we supposed to believe they still have a chance of turning this into a happily ever after, when they can barely stand to touch their husbands? Even Jamie started making out with Doug on the honeymoon. Ashley and Sam are making her seem like a proper hussy.

Yeah, I don't think five weeks is THAT long to wait for sex, particularly in a situation like this, but 2/3 of the couples have had zero physical contact at all. If you haven't open-mouth kissed someone in a month, it's reasonable to assume you've been friend-zoned.

[Neurochick]

Vanessa isn't driving Tres away. Vanessa has the right to be conservative, dislike drunk frat boy behaviour and not be ok with her husband having female friends.

It's her personality and it's what she believes in. Vanessa is criticised for wanting to change Tres but she is supposed to change everything to be less uptight and in order to not "drive him away"?

 

It's obvious that this match like the others is a fail. If Vanessa was paired with a more stable guy that was more of a homebody, there would be little to no issues. Tres and Vanessa are not compatible. It's just another case of the experts ignoring what the contestant probably requested, but imposing someone with that they think need and pairing people based on trauma or other nonsense:

 

Tres and Vanessa are a good match because they were both abandoned. tres is more outgoing so it will create "balance"

Neil and Ashley are a good match because they are both of mixed heritage. Sam is more outgoing so it will create "balance"

David and Ashley are a good match because they are very religious. David is more outgoing so it will create "balance"

 

I do get this, because I think the experts are using marriage as therapy and that never really works.

 

Yes Vanessa has the right to want what she wants, however, I have the feeling that even if the man were a homebody, who didn't drink and who didn't have female friends, she'd have issues with that man.  To me Vanessa comes across like a person who's never satisfied, PLUS she doesn't know how to communicate.  I mean when Tres was trying to talk to her and she sat there like a lump on a log and even turned her head, to me that's not mature, that's not a person who should be in a relationship.  If your husband pisses you off, you need to be able to communicate that, not just get in your car and leave; it's important to speak up.  Vanessa has a right to her feelings, but she also needs to express those feelings.  

 

If someone is upset with me, they have the right to tell me they're upset, just as I have the right to hear how upset they are.  

[Koda1969]

Thought I would weigh in on the whole Tres/Vanessa thing. I do think her reaction wasn't a good one. Then, to pout the next day was not smart. Men aren't mind readers. If you have an issue, say it. One of the ways my marriage has stayed intact is that when something bothers us, we speak up. We don't walk away and instead talk it out. The issue is resolved, and no hidden animosity or grudges.

That said, I think the whole BFF thing is tricky. I do believe men and women can be friends...but it also depends on the men and women. When I met my husband, he had a lot of female friends. I didn't have an issue with it, because I had male friends. Besides, pretty much from our first date, we spent a lot of time together (and were engaged within six months) so both of us knew where we stood in terms of the relationship and friendships.

But, a few weeks into us dating, my husband took me to a party of one of his friends. It was a big cookout in the summer. One of his friends was there, that I met for the first time. The minute my husband was out of earshot (off playing football with some of the guys) she sat down next to me and proceeded to tell me how close they were, how she really knew him better than anyone else, well, you get my point. I smiled through the whole thing and acted like "oh, that's nice!" But then, she dropped a bomb. She told me that she had issues with the new place she was buying/renting (can't remember which) and that she needed to tell my husband that she was going to have to stay at his place until hers was ready. She also threw in, that because they were such best friends, he'd have no issue with it (her presumption).

Now, I'll confess, I was taken aback and to me, that was a red flag. She (obviously) based on her rambling, had feelings for him. My husband had been single for over a decade (much like me) and here he was getting serious about me pretty quickly. So, she became quite territorial. Also, most of his female friends suddenly "needed" him once we got serious. One friend suddenly needed him to dogsit on the weekend of my birthday, another needed him to help with a problem at her house, the requests just started piling up. Each in a way, felt the need to remind me of how long they'd known him and how much he meant to him.

I debated whether to say anything, because we were just starting to date (he'd asked the previous week to become exclusive). So, I figured I'd wait and see how things worked out. Interestingly enough, when the one friend did tell him she planned on moving in, he told her because we were getting serious, that he really didn't feel comfortable. She got pretty mad and suggested that he was "dumping" her to "basically get laid". The other friends started getting mad, too, when he wasn't jumping every time they asked and they also started being pushy, and he ultimately told them too bad, he was happy.

Interestingly enough, after we got engaged, we made plans to move out of state. The day before we were due to leave, he told all of his friends that he was going to have a "last fling" at a local bar they all used to hang out at. Not a one of his female friends showed up. That actually hurt him a lot. At that point, I felt comfortable in being honest with him, and telling him that until I came along, he was the "backup boyfriend". All these women needed him, and were used to him always being around. Once he met me, his priorities changed, and I honestly think many of these women suddenly thought "hmm...I realize now what a great guy he is, maybe I shouldn't have overlooked him" and that's when the territorial behavior came out. On a side note, the only female friend that was great to me from the get-go and has often told me how happy she was that he found me, was a friend of his that he'd known since high school..she is happily married with six kids.

So, going to the Tres/Vanessa thing. I saw a bit of a territorial demeanor from Tres' friend. She didn't seem THAT exuberant to meet Vanessa, and when she sidled up next to him on the couch, in essence pushing the male friend out of the way, I think, was a way to sort of show "I knew him before you did". Was it overt, maybe..maybe not. But I did pick up those territorial vibes. Granted, it doesn't excuse Vanessa. Had I been in her shoes, I would have been sweet and sociable, talking with other guests and not showing it bothered me... and then maybe discussed it with him afterwards. Doing the clingy/nasty thing can only lead to resentment down the road.

Oops..I just realized after posting this that it's been suggested we quit beating a dead horse on the issue. My bad!

Of course, all of this is IMHO.

[Jack Sampson]

Interestingly enough, when the one friend did tell him she planned on moving in, he told her because we were getting serious, that he really didn't feel comfortable. She got pretty mad and suggested that he was "dumping" her to "basically get laid". The other friends started getting mad, too, when he wasn't jumping every time they asked and they also started being pushy, and he ultimately told them too bad, he was happy.

Interestingly enough, after we got engaged, we made plans to move out of state. The day before we were due to leave, he told all of his friends that he was going to have a "last fling" at a local bar they all used to hang out at. Not a one of his female friends showed up. That actually hurt him a lot. At that point, I felt comfortable in being honest with him, and telling him that until I came along, he was the "backup boyfriend". All these women needed him, and were used to him always being around. Once he met me, his priorities changed, and I honestly think many of these women suddenly thought "hmm...I realize now what a great guy he is, maybe I shouldn't have overlooked him" and that's when the territorial behavior came out. On a side note, the only female friend that was great to me from the get-go and has often told me how happy she was that he found me, was a friend of his that he'd known since high school..she is happily married with six kids.

If none of these women were ever having sex with him, your husband wasn't a backup boyfriend, he was full-on friendzoned. They weren't mad because they realized he was a great guy, they were mad because their slave was moving away.

He's lucky he met you.

[qtpye]

If none of these women were ever having sex with him, your husband wasn't a backup boyfriend, he was full-on friendzoned. They weren't mad because they realized he was a great guy, they were mad because their slave was moving away.

 

 

It's funny, because I knew a couple of people in college (of both sexes who did this).  I knew one guy, who had this girl totally in love with him (anyone could see in five minutes she was really sprung over the guy).  He totally friend zoned her and she did not mind taking any scraps the guy would give her.  What is bizarre is the guy is married and he still takes advantage of this stupid girl.  She actually moved to another state so she could be him and his wife's free babysitter (she even changed jobs).  The guy's wife does not mind, because she is no competition for his true affections and she has a slave to do her bidding.

 

I also knew a girl (she was considered very attractive) who would have guys at her beck and call.  She friend zoned all of them (looking for a man with money), but they would hang around (at least for a while), hoping for something more.  She even had some of these fools paying her rent and bills for a while. 

 

I should add, I know plenty of people in healthy male/female hetro platonic relationships.  It is definitely not a one size fits all situation.

[Koda1969]

If none of these women were ever having sex with him, your husband wasn't a backup boyfriend, he was full-on friendzoned. They weren't mad because they realized he was a great guy, they were mad because their slave was moving away.

He's lucky he met you.

 

Ahh...excellent point! Well, only one friend had a past with him. He told me it was a physical relationship that just "didn't work". She went on to get married, but still called him constantly (still does). After we started dating, she was the one who would often call to dog sit, or to complain about her marriage. So, her reaction, and others sort of made me think that because he was "desirable" to someone else, that they realized he was a catch. But yeah, I see your point about the slave part!

 

I  guess I just never wanted to appear jealous, so I just kept quiet and let things play out. This way I didn't appear to be forcing him to make choices, which I'm not fond of (I don't like it, so I can't do it to others).

It's funny, because I knew a couple of people in college (of both sexes who did this).  I knew one guy, who had this girl totally in love with him (anyone could see in five minutes she was really sprung over the guy).  He totally friend zoned her and she did not mind taking any scraps the guy would give her.  What is bizarre is the guy is married and he still takes advantage of this stupid girl.  She actually moved to another state so she could be him and his wife's free babysitter (she even changed jobs).  The guy's wife does not mind, because she is no competition for his true affections and she has a slave to do her bidding.

 

I also knew a girl (she was considered very attractive) who would have guys at her beck and call.  She friend zoned all of them (looking for a man with money), but they would hang around (at least for a while), hoping for something more.  She even had some of these fools paying her rent and bills for a while. 

 

I should add, I know plenty of people in healthy male/female hetro platonic relationships.  It is definitely not a one size fits all situation.

 

I agree completely! That is sort of what I was trying to say, but you put it far more eloquently. It honestly depends on the people in question, the relationship as a whole (how healthy it is)...a lot of different things.

[qtpye]

I  guess I just never wanted to appear jealous, so I just kept quiet and let things play out. This way I didn't appear to be forcing him to make choices, which I'm not fond of (I don't like it, so I can't do it to others).

 

 

This was wise.  You knew if he really liked you, you would not need to make ultimatums.  He would do what was necessary to strengthen your relationship through his own desire to keep you in his life.

 

He is lucky to have found you, particularly since some of his ex female friends seem to be so petty and nasty.

[Aethera]

As I've previously said here regarding social media, it's far easier to have a hard and fast rule - no social media in the episode threads - than to have to referee discussion of which social media posts are and aren't spoilers every time one is posted. So we've asked, repeatedly, that social media not be shared in the episode threads. In response to the question up-thread, yes, we're talking about pinning the rule in these threads to help people remember. I know it's fascinating to discuss the social media posts, but we do have a thread for that!

[Snarklepuss]

Regarding Vanessa's insecurity - I was watching some of the video diaries my DVR had recorded and was struck by something Vanessa said about her not feeling in her gut that Tres was attracted to her physically and that she usually would know when a guy was into her that way.  Interesting given what we were talking about regarding her possibly worrying that he might prefer white or lighter skinned women.....So she admits she has some insecurity over being attractive to him (for whatever reason) which would make her all the more insecure around other women in his life even if he says they are platonic.  It's also interesting given what was said on the board about men being OK with having sex with a woman even if she wasn't necessarily "his preferred type".  Tres seems to be going along with the flow with Vanessa but her gut is telling her he is just having some fun and not really into her.  I don't think her insecurity is only over her attractiveness to him physically, but probably extends to her as a person too.  And that's not good.  She may bail.

[DangerousMinds]

Thank you very much Jack, that was my point.  If they could barely find a black man who wanted to marry a black woman then I don't blame Vanessa for being on guard.  

 

My point also was if you look at statistics as to who marries people of other races, black men marry "out" by 25%, while black women marry out 12%.   I don't know why that is, but that's what statistics state.

Isn't Tres biracial?

[kam]

Regarding Vanessa's insecurity - I was watching some of the video diaries my DVR had recorded and was struck by something Vanessa said about her not feeling in her gut that Tres was attracted to her physically and that she usually would know when a guy was into her that way. Interesting given what we were talking about regarding her possibly worrying that he might prefer white or lighter skinned women.....So she admits she has some insecurity over being attractive to him (for whatever reason) which would make her all the more insecure around other women in his life even if he says they are platonic. It's also interesting given what was said on the board about men being OK with having sex with a woman even if she wasn't necessarily "his preferred type". Tres seems to be going along with the flow with Vanessa but her gut is telling her he is just having some fun and not really into her. I don't think her insecurity is only over her attractiveness to him physically, but probably extends to her as a person too. And that's not good. She may bail.

she didn't say this. she said he wasn't assertive enough which he kind of also admitted when talking to Dr. Logan. He said that he wasn't sure when she wanted sex or if she's too tired for it so he sometimes doesn't want to bother her so he would just rollover....because they don't communicate well.