S06.E05: Season 6, Episode 5

[ShadowFacts]

 

I watched the ep, but didn't see where Mary overheard a discussion about Marigold- when did that happen?  In fact, I was going to mention that her asking Anna at the end what the servants were saying about Marigold had come out of left field since there hadn't been any prior scenes regarding her to my knowledge.  It seemed like a strange thing to bring up after she'd witnessed her father's sudden medical emergency and stayed half the night at the hospital with him, and probably was exhausted and worried about him.  What did I miss?

 

Mary, Edith and Cora were going to the hospital along with Robert, Violet was going home, Violet asked Edith to call her with any news.  In that same scene Cora or Violet say something about no more secrets, like Marigold, and Mary is hanging back and overhears that and a big light bulb or ? all but appears over her head. 

 

Also, there are 3 or 4 more episodes left, not just one.

[rur]

 

I was also confused about the unsatisfactory meal Carson and Mrs. H ate.  They had a whole scene about Mrs Padmore making up the basket for them to take home for dinner...so why was the food terrible?  what where they trying to tell us?  Mrs P is in actuality a terrible cook after all?  Did she pack just raw ingredients, and Mrs H cooked them poorly?

 

Carson had a variety of complaints -- the plate wasn't warm, something had lamb in it (and he apparently did not like that, even though she did). The next morning, Mrs H indicated that he'd told her she didn't cook the way his mother did. So, it wasn't that she was a bad cook, it was that -- in my words -- Carson was a jerk. 

[awaken]

Mary, Edith and Cora were going to the hospital along with Robert, Violet was going home, Violet asked Edith to call her with any news.  In that same scene Cora or Violet say something about no more secrets, like Marigold, and Mary is hanging back and overhears that and a big light bulb or ? all but appears over her head. 

 

Also, there are 3 or 4 more episodes left, not just one.

 

Oh!  Yay.  I thought there were 6 eps total and this was #5.  So happy to know we have a little longer till it's over!  

 

Ok, thanks for the clarification!  I do recall that scene, but apparently, I didn't pick up on all the dialogue b/c I didn't get that "no more secrets, like Marigold" or notice Mary overhearing!  I am going to rewatch!  

[Capricasix]

I thought that lamb chop looked almost raw!

[caligirl50]

Although, since there's only 1 episode left, I guess there won't be enough time to see him waste away from malnutrition or post-surgical infection.

 

There are 9 episodes total so there is more than one episode to come.

Edited February 4, 2016 by caligirl50

[Roseanna]

also if she gets married the husband controls the money of the wife, if she had another children her inheritance would be divided betwen George and his step brothers.

 

I am not sure what the British law said about the former. But Mary's inheritance from Matthew is tied to Downton that is entailed, so George inherits all and any children whom Mary gets with her second husband inherit only their father.

 

I finally saw just why Mary distrusts & despises Edith so much, for without Edith writing to the Turkish ambassador about how Pamuk really died, there would have been virtually no scandal for Mary to have to live down.  I would have been furious with her as well, had someone so close to me caused so many remorseful and regrettable moments for one indiscretion to go on for years.

 

If Mary's hatred based on Edith's letter and Edith's hatred on Mary's lie to Strallan, they should have been in each other's throats in S2, but just that's didn't happen. In fact, they sniped each other less.

 

I would say that just the opposite was true: they sniped each other constantly in S1 and first Edith revenged on Mary and then Mary on Edith. Both were understandable angry at each other, but looking from outside, both reacted to the other's deed. 

[izabella]

I am not sure what the British law said about the former. But Mary's inheritance from Matthew is tied to Downton that is entailed, so George inherits all and any children whom Mary gets with her second husband inherit only their father.

 

The way I understood it, Downton and any income from the estate (or debt!) still entirely belongs to the living Lord Grantham and his ulcer.  Downton has that entail that makes it impossible for a woman to inherit Downton, just a male heir.

 

Matthew accepted Lavinia's father's money, and chose to use it to keep Downton afloat, but that money is not in any way entailed as part of Downton.  Matthew left all of his money to Mary, so she now has the choice of what to do with that money.  She could use it to buy a villa on Lake Como if she wants.  We know she, of course, will leave it all to George so he can run Downton with it.

 

So, while George will inherit Downton and only Downton from Lord Grantham, what he will inherit from Mary is cash and that is Lord Swire's money, not part of the entail.

 

I always get confused on this, but I don't believe it is required that Mary give George Matthew's money (though of course she will) unless all of Lord Swire's money was already spent/invested in buying pigs or invested otherwise directly in Downton.

[EyesGlazed]

Jeepers, when did Downton Abbey turn into Alien???!!!  That was a bloody mess!  I expected tentacles to start poking out of Robert's mouth!

 

It is interesting that one can't tell (or anyway I can't tell) where they are going with Mary and Henry.  I could see them getting together (after they deal with the social disparity and have the you-must-stop-racing-cars-I-can't-stand-to-lose-another-man-that-way conversation?) or not (because they don't deal with the disparity or Henry can't agree to stop racing).  

 

As opposed to Snithead and Andy, whom we know will end up in wedded bliss on the farm with Mr. Mason.

 

The whole Neville Chamberlain thing was so . . . random.  What I'd really like to see is Lady Mary at some gathering of nobility where she gets occasions to trade insults with and snark at other titled ladies.  

[Constantinople]

The whole Neville Chamberlain thing was so . . . random.  What I'd really like to see is Lady Mary at some gathering of nobility where she gets occasions to trade insults with and snark at other titled ladies.  

 

I'm just amazed Lady Mary's psychic powers didn't prompt her to say anything about Munich or "Peace for our Time" given her remark about the Prince of Wales in the Season 4 Christmas Special, "A crisis for the monarchy has been averted, although given his character, I wonder if we won't see another before he's finished"

[BizBuzz]

The rape discussion is not applicable to this thread, and so all references to said scene (from Season 1) have been hidden.

 

Please keep this thread to the observations to Season 6 Episode 5, or all Season 6 episodes up until this one, thank you.

[Calvada]

I think Mary will do something awful to Edith about Marigold - try to sabotage her with Bertie or in their social circle.  Mary and Edith seem to be siblings who should never be in the same city, let alone living under the same roof. 

 

I kept thinking of the poor servants who would have been required to clean up the dining room.  What an awful job that would be.  Like cleaning up a crime scene.  Although I'm sure the laundry workers are used to cleaning blood out of clothing, with all those women in the house and feminine protection not quite what it is in 2016. 

 

Michelle Dockery is looking quite thin, but wasn't this filmed when her fiancé was going through his cancer battle? 

 

[WatchrTina]

 

So, while George will inherit Downton and only Downton from Lord Grantham, what he will inherit from Mary is cash and that is Lord Swire's money, not part of the entail.

I'm not sure that's correct but what i do know (from my having read a dozen novels by Anthony Trollope) is that when members of the aristocracy marry in this era, there no wedding until the lawyers are done.  Mary and her prospective bridegroom would talk through all the possible outcomes (children from the marriage, no children, all boys, all girls) and if Mary does have control over the part of Downton that Matthew owned, then she and her groom would have to come to an agreement about that money.  Remember Cora in season one lamenting the fact that she had been forced to sign that document of "legal theft"?  Marriage between aristocrats always came with a pre-nuptual agreement, especially if the money came from the bride.  No aristocratic woman with a bit of sense (or, more likely, parents with a bit of sense) was going to allow her money to fall exclusively into her husband's hands.  Mary will absolutely protect George and Downton.  There will be provisions made for later children similar to what was set aside for Edith and Sybil but Mary has, from season one, been a whole-hearted supporter of the notion of keeping the family money together by passing it to the eldest child.

 

ETA:  You know, I just re-read that and realized that Cora's money DID fall exclusively into Roberts hands.  Hmmmmm.  I guess it depends on what each person brings to the marriage.  Cora brought wealth but no title so she had to give up control of her money for a countess' coronet.  Lady Mary would bring  both money AND title to a marriage so she'd have the bargaining power to ensure that her money was tied up for the benefit of her children (and not her second husband) if that is what she wanted.

Edited February 5, 2016 by WatchrTina

[sark1624]

Why all here talk about "Mary´s money"?, this money as cash no longer exist; remember that  cash in first place was Swire inheritance to Matthew, after Edith being jilted Mathew told to Robert that he is going to INVEST THAT MONEY in the estate. Thats means that all that cash was used to pay debts that the estate had, new machinery, new ways of farming, etc; in other words Mary cant go the bank and retire that money in a check because it was transformed into assets of the estate or paid debts. The Crawleys had money because at last the estate is having profits, if Mary want to recover the share of Matthew, the estate must sell some things (art collections, land, etc) and with the sell of that she can take her money back. Also after the death of Matthew the estate is paying the death taxes, Robert wanted to sell land an pay once, but Mary and Tom convinced him about not selling land, negotiate the debt, and pay through the years; if the estate doesnt have enought land to farm it wouldnt be self-sufficient, Mary and Tom were right there.

 

The correct is said that Mary has 50% of interest or share in the estate .   

[tenativelyyours]

The way I understood it, Downton and any income from the estate (or debt!) still entirely belongs to the living Lord Grantham and his ulcer.  Downton has that entail that makes it impossible for a woman to inherit Downton, just a male heir.

 

Matthew accepted Lavinia's father's money, and chose to use it to keep Downton afloat, but that money is not in any way entailed as part of Downton.  Matthew left all of his money to Mary, so she now has the choice of what to do with that money.  She could use it to buy a villa on Lake Como if she wants.  We know she, of course, will leave it all to George so he can run Downton with it.

 

So, while George will inherit Downton and only Downton from Lord Grantham, what he will inherit from Mary is cash and that is Lord Swire's money, not part of the entail.

 

I always get confused on this, but I don't believe it is required that Mary give George Matthew's money (though of course she will) unless all of Lord Swire's money was already spent/invested in buying pigs or invested otherwise directly in Downton.

 

 

Part of the problem is that Fellowes for all his adoration of the British nobility didn't seem to understand how entail worked exactly.  He got the general sense but I remember how when the show took hold in the UK there were chuckles about how the girls would have nothing, nothing! because the entail.  When most of the sitting members of the current House of Lords had wished that was true when since the early Georgians the only daughters of a peer often took money and treasure to their husbands and children and left plenty of distant cousins with the title and an empty great house with little to support it but the rents which by the industrial age were not enough and so the inevitable decline which the Great War hastened in many ways.  It was also odd that he seemed to have Cora's dowry be considered part of the entail when it turns out we later learn it was just invested unwisely.  Odd not just because by the time Cora took her place as one of the 'Dollar Duchesses' American millionaires had already learned the lesson of how to handle the cash in these transactions.  But also because it made no sense that Cora as the money bringer in that situation would not keep an eye out for any and all children. Plus I'm not sure how you would legally tie an investment like that to an entail.  Because British law would still give precedent to such funds to heirs of the body even if Robert had the money given to him fully.  Matthew or the cousin that didn't float would not enjoy that status.  Heck, all Fellowes had to do was take a look at how the real Countess at Downton Abbey (Aka Carnarvon/Highclere) was able to manage her own money from her father to figure out how it was done.  But that robs the whole hand wringing drama of what will happen to the girls.  Well Mary.  I can't remember there being any real focus on what would become the others had Matthew not married Mary or wanted his distant cousins lingering about his new home and seat.

 

So when talking about the money issue it is important to not stumble over how it really works and how Fellowes thinks it works and applies it to the show.  Which you have done rather perfectly if you don't mind my saying.

[kassa]

I never got the impression that the Crawley girls would have nothing, nothing (like the Bennett girls in Pride and Prejudice, who really would have been demoted in their circumstances).  Even when the whole family thought they might lose Downton they were downsizing to a pretty substantial place.  Rosamund married a banker and her lifestyle doesn't seem to be significantly downscale from theirs (minus the hundreds of acres, of course).  

[SusanSunflower]

Sibyl and Robert had some conversation about "her money" at the time of near-elopement. I have no memory of such things ever being mentioned again (beyond Tom's reluctance to spend Sybil's money from Robert). See also Edith's independent financial status post Gregson's death.  DA really doesn't stand up well under close examination, imho; I try to restrain myself. 

Edited February 5, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Andorra]

I've read (and posted here) a link to a detailed article, that explains the legal side of Mary's "inheritance" from Matthew. I'm too lazy to look for it, it is somehwere on this board. The truth is, that she could only inherit Matthew's part as long as Robert lived. Since Matthew invested his money in the estate and was "co-owner" it became part of the entail. And by becoming part of the entail it will go to the next heir of Downton the day Robert dies. 

 

Which means, if George dies prematurely, Mary would lose all her fortune to the "chimney sweep from nowheresville" the day Robert died. 

 

She would only get the dowry Robert settled for his daughters, which would still be good money, but far from what she has inherited from Matthew. 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Andorra

[izabella]

I dont' think Matthew invested the Swire's entire fortune in Downton.  Didn't he just put half the money toward saving Downton?  Mary would still get the other half in cash, regardless of where Downton went, because that money wasn't used to buy pigs and new-fangled modern farming equipment or shoring up the huge pile of crumbling rock that is Downton.

[Andorra]

I dont' think Matthew invested the Swire's entire fortune in Downton.  Didn't he just put half the money toward saving Downton?  Mary would still get the other half in cash, regardless of where Downton went, because that money wasn't used to buy pigs and new-fangled modern farming equipment or shoring up the huge pile of crumbling rock that is Downton.

 

No, he invested everything. He didn't want the money in the first place. He would have just handed it over to Robert without becoming co-owner, it was Robert's insistence that they would run Downton together.

[tenativelyyours]

According the Herald's office you cannot assign money to an entail like mentioned above.  It simply does not work that way.  It might be how Fellowes thinks it works but in the real world it does not.

 

The other problem is that it doesn't work in Fellowes world either since if Matthew's investment became part of the entail how can he leave it to Mary?  She would have no say whatsoever and it would have been entirely Robert's which was the dilemma until they found Matthew's letter.

 

And there was tons of worry to me in the first season when the cousin died on the Titantic and suddenly marriage was key for Mary and the others.  And in the discussion about trying to break the entail Robert and Cora discuss there is a little for the girls and Cora's fortune was bound to the entail.  Sorry the tongue in cheek nothing! I say nothing was so confounding.  Must have been dreadful reading that ;)

[potatoradio]

Finally - a different scene for Thomas besides "Andy...would you like some help with..." Andy: "NO, GET AWAY FROM ME!!" Thomas *retreats with stilted sad face*. I was about ready to toss my glass of wine all over my teevee when that scene was replayed for the gajillionth time.

 

I might not mind the Spratt/Denker storyline if they were more integrated with the rest of the staff; they always seem separate. I can't recall seeing them eating with the others or being involved with them at all, but maybe I missed that. Their separate storyline is far too weak to carry on its own.

 

I would pay good money for a Baxter/Barrow/Patmore spinoff. 

[helenamonster]

I agree, potatoradio, that probably the biggest problem with the Spratt/Denker scenes is that they are so separated from the rest of the show. They don't really have any reason to interact with the staff at the big house, and their only other connection to the other storylines is through Violet, which is weak because she's not known to have the same friendly relationships with her servants as the other Crawley family members are. I speculated in Episode 4 that Spratt's nephew was Peter Coyle and that that might provide a connection via Baxter, but that didn't happen and the Peter Coyle thing got dropped out of nowhere so now we're back to Spratt and Denker just dittering about in the basement of the dower house.

[SusanSunflower]

 

I speculated in Episode 4 that Spratt's nephew was Peter Coyle and that that might provide a connection via Baxter, but that didn't happen and the Peter Coyle thing got dropped

That would have been brilliant ... particularly if he'd been truly devilishly handsome ... maybe he could even convince Thomas to run off with him (to seek his fortune) ... it does seem as if Julian had specially chosen an who, perhaps, had suddenly became unavailable and he dropped both story lines.  

 

One problem with Denker and Spratt is that they are both disagreeable layabouts ... two large adult human beings waiting on one tiny old woman who is likely fairly tidy and eats like a bird --and who eats many meals at the big house ... The servants in the big house give a good  impression of near-constant activity so the sniping and griping of Denker and Spratt is distinctly unflattering, even "sinful" in an "idle hands" sort of way.  

Edited February 6, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Libby96]

I think the show made it through all of WWI without showing as much blood as Robert vomited in the dining room scene. I actually shrieked a little, I was so surprised and horrified. Count me in as one who is glad that poor Donk isn't dead.

I hope the ominous music playing as Mary stared into her vanity mirror was just to signify that Mary is feeling isolated due to the fact that they kept Marigold a secret from her, and not a sign that she is planning to use her realization to hurt Edith. She and Edith are women in their mid-thirties. Time to be grownups.

Speaking of needing to be a grownup, what is up with Daisy? I'd always enjoyed her as a character, but she is just unlikable this season. Why can't she share Mr. Mason? Sheesh.

[jacksgirl]

Loved seeing Cora with a backbone telling the Dowager about the hospital plan after Robert went all Alien at the dinner table.

[RedHawk]

The one worthwhile thing about the Spratt-Denker scenes was that we learned Spratt's first name is Septimus.

Edited February 8, 2016 by RedHawk

[WatchrTina]

One problem with Denker and Spratt is that they are both disagreeable layabouts

I've been binge-watching Season 2 and one thing I found interesting is how much I cared about Mr. Mosley and Mrs. Bird and how much more natural their relationship was than the stupid petty war between season 6 Spratt and Denker. When we first meet Mrs. Bird in the last episode of Season 1 she comes across as a tough and somewhat disagreeable person but later she and Mrs. Patmore find common ground over their mutual dislike of Mr. Hughes' refusal to give them the key the stores cupboard and she is kind to Daisy when she discovers that Daisy had been sabotaging the dinner out of loyalty to Mrs. Patmore. Then, in season 2, there's a point where Matthew is off fighting the war and Isobel goes to France to serve in a hospital and they are left with nothing to do but care for an empty house. There is the wonderful scene of them talking about having done all the chores they can think of, hating being at loose ends. They were so sweet -- such a contrast to the two losers Violet is now saddled with. It's a pity that neither Denker nor Spratt has been portrayed as having any redeeming qualities.

BTW Season 2 is MUCH better than I remembered. I've cried 3 times.

Edited February 8, 2016 by WatchrTina

[WatchrTina]

Just started my re-watch of Season 3.  When Mary comes down the stairs in her wedding gown Lord Grantham says "I'm so proud I feel as if my heart could burst out of my chest.  And I thought "No, that doesn't happen until season 6!"

Edited February 9, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Camera One]

The throwing up of blood was a bit overboard.  Once I could see, but twice was a tad much.  

I'm very much tired of the mean-spiritedness of the hospital debate.  It puts all three of the women in terrible light, and makes them unlikeable, which is something I don't want in a final season.

Daisy's jealousy is also quite unpleasant to see.

It was nice to see Mary and Edith in a moment after shock.  There's not much time left if they want to work on that relationship.  In most shows, they would have progressed by now.

[TaurusRose]

On 10/18/2015 at 5:24 PM, MissLucas said:

I won't be distracted by some dramatically spilled blood (though well played show)!!! Damn it we got some glorious, glorious outfits today and nobody will talk about them because of that ill-timed ulcer bursting - so I shall do it right here. We had a serious coat extravaganza starting with the one worn by Lady Mary at the racetrack and then the spectacular thing worn by Edith in London and at Downton, Cora's coat wasn't too shabby either. And I adored Isobel's frock for the battle royal. We also had not one but two tiara sightings - the ladies (and gentlemen) over at the Royal Order of Sartorial Splendor will be in raptures. But Lady Edith was the overall winner first with the blue and lime green ensemble worn in the park and then in that heavenly red and gold lame dress. That was awesome. (Plus Lady Mary and Lady Edith are finally allowed to openly wear make-up. Laura Carmichael looked spectacular in the scene in her flat.)

 

*Cough* Right there was some plot too. Glad to see that Downton's pigs were not forgotten. Who would know that in the end they'd provide romance for Mrs Patmore and Daisy AND a redemption arc for Thomas. May they never see the slaughterhouse - heavenly useful creatures that they are!

 

And another tedious crime plot resolved. Although I'm not too keen on yet another one I think I would be fine with Mrs Hughes making sure her pompous husband will never again complain about her cooking.

 

Nothing really new on the Mary/Henry/Tom front except lots of ambiguity (again, well played show). I still don't care about Denker and Spratt or the hospital.

 

And look: Lady Mary is finally catching up on Marigold. I loved Anna's deer-in-headlights reaction when Lady Mary asked her about the servants opinion about the girl. (It more or less confirmed that the downstairs folks are one step ahead of her ladyship.) Carson reminding Baxter and Anna to make sure Lady Edith would be looked after since she had no maid of her own was glorious. After years of speculation on message boards whether she has a maid or not this was the best moment to clear that up!

I apologize in advance for what may be a series of back to back posts, but I'm posting from my phone and replying to multiple posts can be glitchy.  I'm aware that the ladies all looked very nice, but I'm afraid I didn't pay as much attention to their outfits; so, kudos to you for the detail. I agree with you, I have zero interest in the Baxter/Coyle drama.  

Mrs. Hughes gets my vote for sainthood because I would have bashed Carson upside the head, but good.  What an insufferable, pompous windbag! 

As for Mary, why doesn't she put on her big girl panties and just ask Edith if Marigold (I barf every time I have to type that stupid name) is her child and stop fishing?  It's not anyone's secret to tell, so Miss Thing really should go to the source.  And finally, I couldn't believe someone could vomit that much blood and live, but I'm glad Robert is going to be okay.

Edited March 5, 2017 by taurusrose

[TaurusRose]

On 2/1/2016 at 0:53 PM, izabella said:

"I luv U, Sarah Bunting, let me bring you "home" to Downton so you can be my wife and live with my dead wife's family!"  Awkward.

Like that was ever going to happen.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, taurusrose said:

As for Mary, why doesn't she put on her big girl panties and just ask Edith if Marigold (I barf every time I have to type that stupid name) is her child and stop fishing?  

Because this is a show. If the characters would always behave sensibly, that would end the plot line very swiftly. Now, the audience is left guessing what Mary is going to do with her informatio - and as you see, opinions vary whether she is "her old self" or not. 

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Because this is a show. If the characters would always behave sensibly, that would end the plot line very swiftly. Now, the audience is left guessing what Mary is going to do with her informatio - and as you see, opinions vary whether she is "her old self" or not. 

Actually, I am not guessing what she will do because I don't care. The animosity between Mary and Edith is one of the things I've come to ignore about DA.