All Episodes Talk: Walk With Me

[Kohola3]

On a totally shallow note, Rob has aged very, very well.  

[Guest]

Please take a moment to review the site's politics policy linked here.  I've had to remove a number of posts that violated this policy.

[caitmcg]

22 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

On a totally shallow note, Rob has aged very, very well.  

I came of age in the ’80s, so I’m of exactly the age that was meant to find him a heartthrob in his Brat Pack days. Nope, he didn’t do anything for me. I didn’t see TWW when it first aired, so my first experience of him on TV was in Brothers and Sisters, and I thought damn, he has really aged into himself well.

[Kohola3]

8 minutes ago, caitmcg said:

 I didn’t see TWW when it first aired, so my first experience of him on TV was in Brothers and Sisters, and I thought damn, he has really aged into himself well.

It's interesting to note that Sam Seaborn was originally supposed to be the central character of TWW with Martin Sheen in a peripheral role.  But as the show progressed with such amazing actors, it changed course entirely.

[Moose135]

3 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

It's interesting to note that Sam Seaborn was originally supposed to be the central character of TWW with Martin Sheen in a peripheral role.

After making the greatest character entrance in the history of television, how could they not use him more?

"I am the Lord your God. Thou shalt worship no other God before me."

[Kohola3]

2 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

After making the greatest character entrance in the history of television, how could they not use him more?

 

It was a stunning moment.  I was hooked.

[Bastet]

That was quite the memorable entrance.

I didn't think Mary Marsh deserved an apology to begin with, so once she really showed her ass in that meeting, it was so gratifying for the president - whom they'd been bending over backwards to distance Josh from - to turn out to be a guy who'd come in and tell everyone to get their fat asses out of his White House.

[oakville]

I started watching Season 6 . I am surprised that President Bartlett picked CJ to be his Chief of Staff. Wouldn't Josh being a more logical pick ?

Josh had more knowledge of politics than CJ .

 

[BW Manilowe]

15 hours ago, oakville said:

I started watching Season 6 . I am surprised that President Bartlett picked CJ to be his Chief of Staff. Wouldn't Josh being a more logical pick ?

Josh had more knowledge of politics than CJ .

 

Josh could also be rude & undiplomatic to the wrong people, as seen in the Mary Marsh incident; he could also be a hothead. I don’t think you want a rude, undiplomatic, hothead dealing with the kind of people a White House COS has to deal with; besides the staff that is.

[PeterPirate]

Of course, Josh became Matt Santos's COS.  The show could have been quite entertaining with Josh messing up from time to time, and also sparring with Donna over which Santos would get top billing and such.  

 

Then again, the show did end with The Napkin.  Bartlet For America, yo.

[Driad]

When a new chief of staff was needed, there was a lot of discussion on the mailing lists etc. Many people agreed that Toby, Josh, and CJ would not be great choices, and in the real world probably someone from outside would have been brought in.  But it was a TV show and viewers liked the main cast, so the writers chose CJ as the least bad choice.

[Kohola3]

Let me just throw out there, I am seriously in love with Lionel Tribbey.

[blondiec0332]

13 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Let me just throw out there, I am seriously in love with Lionel Tribbey.

That is probably due to John Larroquette portraying him.

If we are talking about West Wing lawyers my favorite was Oliver Babish. Which i probably due to Oliver Platt portraying him.

 

 

[Bastet]

18 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Let me just throw out there, I am seriously in love with Lionel Tribbey.

I change the specifics as needed to paraphrase him whenever I hear someone essentially say we should be tolerant of intolerance:

Quote

As long as Justice Dreyfort is intolerant toward gays, lesbians, blacks, unions, women, poor people, and the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Ninth amendments, I will remain intolerant toward him.

Also, should I somehow ever find myself pissed off while holding a cricket bat in my hands, I'm sure I will declare that I will kill people today.

[CailynA]

On 9/4/2020 at 6:53 PM, oakville said:

I started watching Season 6 . I am surprised that President Bartlett picked CJ to be his Chief of Staff. Wouldn't Josh being a more logical pick ?

Josh had more knowledge of politics than CJ .

 

I remember being totally shocked the first time I watched but on my most recent rewatch it was so obvious just how hard they worked to set it up the CJ was the right choice

[oakville]

I just finished watched the season finale of season 6, 2162 votes. I can't believe that Santos picked Leo to be his VP. It's not realistic.

Leo kept pressuring Santos to drop out of the race. Why would Santos pick him ?

[Moose135]

2 hours ago, oakville said:

Leo kept pressuring Santos to drop out of the race. Why would Santos pick him ?

To quote Aaron Sorkin - albeit from Sports Night, rather than The West Wing...

If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. If you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

[caitmcg]

On 9/8/2020 at 9:03 PM, Moose135 said:

To quote Aaron Sorkin - albeit from Sports Night, rather than The West Wing...

If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. If you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

I mean, that’s kind of what Russell, the dumb guy, did (or tried to do).

[Kohola3]

Leo said something in a similar vein when trying to hire Ainsley Hayes.

The President likes smart people who disagree with him. He wants to hear from you.

[CheshireCat]

On 9/4/2020 at 7:53 PM, oakville said:

I started watching Season 6 . I am surprised that President Bartlett picked CJ to be his Chief of Staff. Wouldn't Josh being a more logical pick ?

Josh had more knowledge of politics than CJ .

But then I often felt like they made her deliberately ignorant so that they could explain things to the viewer. I mean, would she really not have known about the census?

Regardless of how likely it would have been, I thought it was a pity how little they made of it once CJ was CoS. A missed opportunity, in my opinion but not surprising for how the show as written overall and not surprising for when it happened. Some episodes felt like those in the White House were just waiting for their time to be up. Maybe it would have been better if they had only dealt with the campaign in the last season and a half or so.

 

On 9/9/2020 at 12:03 AM, Moose135 said:

To quote Aaron Sorkin - albeit from Sports Night, rather than The West Wing...

If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. If you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

I agree with the general sentiment of that statement. But Leo was much older than Santos, had had a heart attack and a history of drug and alcohol abuse, all things which could have made him more prone to developing an illness or die early. Considering that one of the most important jobs of the VP is to be able to take over as President, I don't think anyone would have chosen Leo regardless of how smart he was. Make him an advisor but don't give him the job that requires him to have a pulse more than anything else.

[Bastet]

On 9/8/2020 at 9:03 PM, Moose135 said:

To quote Aaron Sorkin - albeit from Sports Night, rather than The West Wing...

If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. If you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

 

19 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Leo said something in a similar vein when trying to hire Ainsley Hayes.

The President likes smart people who disagree with him. He wants to hear from you.

That really worked for me in the Isaac/Jeremy example on Sports Night, but I thought Bartlet's idea to hire Ainsley - and Leo agreeing after initially thinking he meant as a prank on Sam - was stupid.  Having an intelligent person who wants to achieve the same overall goals as you but disagrees on how those are best achieved is wonderful inner circle strategy.  Hiring someone who's smart but whose fundamental view of how society should function is antithetical to yours is pointless.  Communicate with them and try to find some common ground in order to make deals with them, sure, but add them to the team who are busting their asses to make things better?  No.

"Well, what the hell made you think I wouldn't scream where there are people?!"
"I took a shot."

The way C.J. and Sam shriek Leo's name in unison after that is terrific.  Because, yeah, dumb idea.

But then I love that once Ainsley is there, C.J. stands up against the opposition to her that is rooted in sexism, not what she says/does/stands for.

[blondiec0332]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

That really worked for me in the Isaac/Jeremy example on Sports Night, but I thought Bartlet's idea to hire Ainsley - and Leo agreeing after initially thinking he meant as a prank on Sam - was stupid.  Having an intelligent person who wants to achieve the same overall goals as you but disagrees on how those are best achieved is wonderful inner circle strategy.  Hiring someone who's smart but whose fundamental view of how society should function is antithetical to yours is pointless.  Communicate with them and try to find some common ground in order to make deals with them, sure, but add them to the team who are busting their asses to make things better?  No.

This is the same as political parties trying to appeal to voters who disagree with their policies.  You end up alienating your base.

I thought I read somewhere that Ainsley Hayes was based on Kristin Chenowith who Sorkin had been involved with and had different political views than him.  Which is weird considering Chenowith ended up playing a character who's views were more in line with his.

[BlackberryJam]

Attorneys are a little different. An attorney can draft and review legal documents for pitfalls and errors without regard to political philosophy. It’s not like Ainsley was hired to create or promote policy. (Hi Cliff Calley, who got dropped like a hot potato.)

My problem with Ainsley was that they never had the other staffers made the solid arguments against her. Sam was often confused by Ainsley’s arguments, which just didn’t seem right.

As to CJ as CoS, a rewatch of the series has her being competent over and over, even from S1, while Toby and Josh get in their own way and trip over their own egos and assumptions. They did use CJ as the recipient of a blessing from the exposition fairy (Hi Sam!) a little too often, but mostly she was competent and savvy while getting more funny stories than the others. 

[VCRTracking]

John Wells discussed Aaron Sorkin leaving the show. I think we can guess who the "unnamed actor" Sorkin had difficulties with is!

 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I think we can guess who the "unnamed actor" Sorkin had difficulties with is!

But what I don't know is who the other actor with whom Aaron was getting frustrated was (Wells says he was getting really frustrated with "a couple of the actors" in season four).  I remember all the Rob Lowe stuff, but I don't remember hearing about anyone else at the time.

LOL at Sorking asking what just happened in the meeting with the studio and network and Wells having to tell him dude, you just quit; Tommy and I told you exactly what was going to happen, and you came in here and quit.

[VCRTracking]

We all know Sorkin's contribution was vital so some people may question what John Wells brought to the table. To them I say look at Sorkin's shows without him. Wells would have gone up to him and be  like "Uh Aaron? I think we might need to cut the line where the character yells at his Midwestern parents "This is the Paris Opera House of American television!" and the dad's response "That's swell Tom, but your brother is standing in the middle of Afghanistan!"

Edited September 15, 2020 by VCRTracking

[PeterPirate]

Watching the John Wells interview apparently triggered the YouTube algorithm to put the following into my video feed. It's a 2003 appearance of Aaron Sorkin on the Charlie Rose show, shortly after Sorkin left the show.  Sorkin is extraordinarily upbeat.  

 

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by PeterPirate

[txhorns79]

On 9/11/2020 at 11:04 AM, blondiec0332 said:

 

I thought I read somewhere that Ainsley Hayes was based on Kristin Chenowith who Sorkin had been involved with and had different political views than him.  Which is weird considering Chenowith ended up playing a character who's views were more in line with his.

You might be thinking of Harriet Hayes on Studio 60.  I believe that character was supposed to be based in part on Chenoweth. 

 

On 9/8/2020 at 8:44 PM, CailynA said:

I remember being totally shocked the first time I watched but on my most recent rewatch it was so obvious just how hard they worked to set it up the CJ was the right choice

I get the limitations of a tv show, and how it is much easier for the position to be filled by an existing cast member, but in reality, CJ doesn't have the experience or background to do the job.  In terms of the cast, she is a logical choice because they wanted to move Josh off into campaign storylines and Toby as a character was all wrong for the position, but I never thought realistically that CJ should get that job.   

[Driad]

Chief of staff is a strange two-in-one job anyway.  Manager of the White House staff and senior adviser to POTUS need two different sets of skills.  It would seem more efficient to have two different people in these positions.

[CailynA]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

You might be thinking of Harriet Hayes on Studio 60.  I believe that character was supposed to be based in part on Chenoweth. 

 

I get the limitations of a tv show, and how it is much easier for the position to be filled by an existing cast member, but in reality, CJ doesn't have the experience or background to do the job.  In terms of the cast, she is a logical choice because they wanted to move Josh off into campaign storylines and Toby as a character was all wrong for the position, but I never thought realistically that CJ should get that job.   

I finally listened to the Birnam Wood episode of The West Wing Weekly podcast and I totally agree with them that there should have been a whole episode on picking the new CoS and explanations on why each person was a no: Josh, Toby, Will, and why CJ was the right choice. I think that would have helped. It still seems an odd choice  but I did love watching her grow into the role.

[PeterPirate]

I can't think of a real-life COS who had as much influence as Leo.  I especially can't think of one who resigned over a policy dispute.  

[SoMuchTV]

OMG this is so good and I can't believe it took me 20 years to watch it.  But in my defense I had babies and work and school forms to sign.  I can't even read the comments, except the vault threads for the seasons I've already finished, because I really don't want to be spoiled.  I am listening to the Weekly podcast so at least there's that.   Almost through s2; hope to be back soon to catch up on everyone's comments.

[Kohola3]

43 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

OMG this is so good and I can't believe it took me 20 years to watch it. 

I know, right?  I didn't watch it at first, I mean a program about the government didn't appeal to me.  But the TV critic of the Detroit Free Press raved about it and we had the same tastes so I tried it.  And was hooked!

[CheshireCat]

I watched The Supremes last night. I just love this episode - from Toby and Josh "falling in love" with Lang, to Josh's idea to let the Republicans pick a justice, to Toby's reaction to the idea, to Josh's, Toby's and the President's reaction to the Republican nominee, to the discussion between Lang and the Republican judge (whose name I have no idea how to spell), to his argument why the court needs more than moderate justices. I just love everything about this episode. And that the Republican was likeable and came across as reasonable was an added bonus!

[MaryMitch]

15 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

OMG this is so good and I can't believe it took me 20 years to watch it.  But in my defense I had babies and work and school forms to sign.  I can't even read the comments, except the vault threads for the seasons I've already finished, because I really don't want to be spoiled.  I am listening to the Weekly podcast so at least there's that.   Almost through s2; hope to be back soon to catch up on everyone's comments.

Thanks for mentioning the vault threads; I am also a newbie enjoying this show.

[SoMuchTV]

2 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

Thanks for mentioning the vault threads; I am also a newbie enjoying this show.

Good to have company! 

I don't know how you feel about spoilers, but if you're really trying to avoid them, be careful reading stuff in the vault.  There are per-season threads where in theory there should be no spoilers beyond the thread's season.  Season 1 seemed to be following that guideline, but Season 2 had a few comments that went a little farther than I'd like about the future (who does or doesn't stay on the show, what couples do or don't get or stay together...)  Not that I can really blame people - they're probably watched the series multiple times over the past 15-20 years and aren't thinking like a "first-timer". 

But I'll probably forget what I read by the time I get much farther along in the series, so I should be fine!

[BW Manilowe]

Bad Education, a TV movie in which Allison Janney appears (with blonde hair) won the Emmy in the category of Outstanding Television Movie at this year’s Creative Arts Emmy Awards presentation last night. The movie aired on HBO, according to the article.

Bradley Whitford is a nominee again this year in the Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Drama Series category, for his role in Hulu’s The Handmaid’s Tale, which (ironically) stars fellow Emmy winner, & TWW co-star (she, of course, played youngest Bartlet daughter, Zoey) Elisabeth Moss. Bradley’s category will be awarded during the Primetime Emmy Awards, hosted by Jimmy Kimmel, on ABC tonight beginning at 8PM Eastern/7PM Central. If you miss the category by the time you read this, the winners list is well-publicized in the media & it’s on the Television Academy website, Emmys.com, so you can see if Bradley won. If he should win, & you miss the presentation of his category, his acceptance speech should show up on YouTube at some point in the next few days, if it’s not also on the Television Academy’s website.

[TV Diva Queen]

On 9/20/2020 at 2:32 AM, CheshireCat said:

I watched The Supremes last night. I just love this episode - from Toby and Josh "falling in love" with Lang, to Josh's idea to let the Republicans pick a justice, to Toby's reaction to the idea, to Josh's, Toby's and the President's reaction to the Republican nominee, to the discussion between Lang and the Republican judge (whose name I have no idea how to spell), to his argument why the court needs more than moderate justices. I just love everything about this episode. And that the Republican was likeable and came across as reasonable was an added bonus!

I watched it over the weekend.  The Republican judge is Alison's hubby on Mom.  I'm mid season 6 now....and getting sad that its coming to an end for me this week.  

[blondiec0332]

On 9/18/2020 at 12:44 AM, txhorns79 said:

You might be thinking of Harriet Hayes on Studio 60.  I believe that character was supposed to be based in part on Chenoweth. 

Doh! You are right. I confused my blondes on Sorkin shows.  I loved Studio 60 but could not stand Harriet Hayes.

 

21 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I don't know how you feel about spoilers, but if you're really trying to avoid them, be careful reading stuff in the vault.  There are per-season threads where in theory there should be no spoilers beyond the thread's season.  Season 1 seemed to be following that guideline, but Season 2 had a few comments that went a little farther than I'd like about the future (who does or doesn't stay on the show, what couples do or don't get or stay together...)  Not that I can really blame people - they're probably watched the series multiple times over the past 15-20 years and aren't thinking like a "first-timer". 

West Wing has a few plot points that would be considered spoiler worthy but overall I think knowing some things in advance helps you understand what you watch up to the spoiled plot point.  I watched it when it was on originally and have re watched it twice since.  Now that I am older and have more of an understanding about politics and government rewatching it  I see it through different eyes.

Edited September 21, 2020 by blondiec0332

[marypat57]

@So Much TV:  I’m glad you’re beginning to enjoy what all of us “wingnuts” have been enjoying since season 1.  Welcome to the family!
 

P.S.  Even my Republican brother loves the show.  He’s said on more than one occasion that if Jed Bartlet was running for president, that he would vote for him.  He lives near DC and would let me know when he was near one of the scenes from the show

[SoMuchTV]

9 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

West Wing has a few plot points that would be considered spoiler worthy but overall I think knowing some things in advance helps you understand what you watch up to the spoiled plot point.  I watched it when it was on originally and have re watched it twice since.  Now that I am older and have more of an understanding about politics and government rewatching it  I see it through different eyes.

Sure that’s an equally valid choice. I just wanted the chance to watch it as a complete newcomer the first time through, and I was sharing what I’d seen in case there was anyone else felt the same way. 

And this is coming from someone who watched the final episode of Breaking Bad first, after hearing all the fuss about it, then went back and watched it from the beginning. So I can definitely seeing both sides of the argument. 

[zillabreeze]

On 9/20/2020 at 11:00 AM, MaryMitch said:

Thanks for mentioning the vault threads; I am also a newbie enjoying this show.

It was my "don't Even think of interrupting me show" on first go round.  Such good writing!!!!  And in the beginning I didn't have a DVR!  So, no skip backs to catch the stellar dialog!  You had to focus!  The fast talking hallway walks were script gold.  

I think it's a safe bet that a series that ended 14 years ago and has never gone into syndication, is a damn good watch.

[BlackberryJam]

11 hours ago, zillabreeze said:

It was my "don't Even think of interrupting me show" on first go round.  Such good writing!!!!  And in the beginning I didn't have a DVR!  So, no skip backs to catch the stellar dialog!  You had to focus!  The fast talking hallway walks were script gold.  

I think it's a safe bet that a series that ended 14 years ago and has never gone into syndication, is a damn good watch.

Wasn’t it in syndication back in 2013 or so on Bravo?

[Kohola3]

17 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Wasn’t it in syndication back in 2013 or so on Bravo?

Yes, it was.  Not sure of the year, though.

[Bastet]

It was 2003 that it started airing on Bravo; it was a big bidding war, and Bravo won by paying something like $1 million per episode.  I don't remember how long it ran.

[BW Manilowe]

From TV Line: The West Wing Reunion Sets October 15 Premiere Date on HBOMax

 

[BlackberryJam]

19 hours ago, Bastet said:

It was 2003 that it started airing on Bravo; it was a big bidding war, and Bravo won by paying something like $1 million per episode.  I don't remember how long it ran.

2013, 2003, time has no meaning. 

Just repeating that on re-watch, CJ is so often the competent one and voice of reason. 

[ProudMary]

If we had a full forum for The West Wing, I'd put this in the Small Talk thread, but...
The initial reviews have come out for the Trial of the Chicago 7, written and directed by Aaron Sorkin. It's a Netflix film, "opening in select theaters Sept. 25 ahead of its Oct. 16 bow on the streaming platform."  Here is the fairly glowing review from The Hollywood Reporter's David Rooney.
'The Trial of the Chicago 7': Film Review

A snippet:
 

Quote

Sorkin has made a movie that's gripping, illuminating and trenchant, as erudite as his best work and always grounded first and foremost in story and character.

I'd want to see it just based on Aaron Sorkin's involvement but the cast is a truly amazing collection of standout actors: Yahya Abdul-Mateen II, Sacha Baron Cohen, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Michael Keaton, Frank Langella, John Carroll Lynch, Eddie Redmayne, Mark Rylance, Alex Sharp, Jeremy Strong, Noah Robbins, Danny Flaherty, Ben Shenkman, Kelvin Harrison Jr., Caitlin Fitzgerald, Alice Kremelberg, John Doman, J.C. MacKenzie, Damien Young, Wayne Duvall, C.J. Wilson

[TV Diva Queen]

Just finished the series and I ended on a bad note.  when they showed us Toby's official pardon doc....its said TOBY Ziegler.  His name is Tobias.  As someone who works with official government documents this sent me through the roof.   

Spoiler

fin

 

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, TV Diva Queen said:

Just finished the series and I ended on a bad note.  when they showed us Toby's official pardon doc....its said TOBY Ziegler.  His name is Tobias.  As someone who works with official government documents this sent me through the roof.   

  Hide contents

fin

 

Richard Schiff was just livid about what they did to his character in the final season and wasn't shy about saying it. I have to agree with him, it was just awful.