Season Three Talk

[formerlyfreedom]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from season three. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

[LiveenLetLive]

I am giddy with excitement--I love this show, and Gates is so good at talking to the celebs about their family history.

[Kromm]

There's a season 3?  I thought Ben Affleck killed this show.

[Ina123]

I think Season 3 starts tonight or tomorrow. Check PBS listings. Donna Brazille and John McCain are 2 he's presenting this season. Can't think of the others.

 

They say they thought long and hard about bringing it back after the Affleck blowup. They say they made changes in the chain of command to prevent it ever happening again.

[riverblue22]

This is my favorite of the genealogy shows.  I'm surprised and very glad it is back.

[SimoneS]

First time that I have ever watched the whole episode. I enjoyed it although I thought that Gates was hokey at times. It is amazing how far back they can find these census and other records. It must take weeks and months even just to find info on one guest. 

 

Ty Burrell was brave to share the story that his family told about his African American ancestor. It could not have been easy. So many families have that secret and bury it best as they can. Now Ty, Kara, and Donna know more about their family stories which all had some degree of truth. I felt Ty, Kara Walker and Donna Brazile's pain at the suffering, degrading, and horrendous lives of some of their ancestors. I wonder how knowing about her family will impact Kara's work? I have always found her art heartwrenching and difficult to watch. Slavery (and racism) really is America's original sin. We don't like to talk about or its impact on our society, but few people of all ethnicities are untouched by its legacy of ugliness and suffering.

Edited January 6, 2016 by SimoneS

[Driad]

I think it would be clearer if they showed everything for one guest, then went on to the next.  I was getting confused between Ty's ancestors and Kara's.  (And wondering if there would be a surprise that they were related.)

 

Does Prof. Gates use words like "master" on purpose?  My black friends use phrases like "slave holder" rather than "master" or "slave owner" to indicate that no human being can legitimately own another.

[Kromm]

I think it would be clearer if they showed everything for one guest, then went on to the next.  I was getting confused between Ty's ancestors and Kara's.  (And wondering if there would be a surprise that they were related.)

 

Does Prof. Gates use words like "master" on purpose?  My black friends use phrases like "slave holder" rather than "master" or "slave owner" to indicate that no human being can legitimately own another.

I can see the logic that what people called those figures at the time is more historically correct. It doesn't have to be a tacit admission of legitimacy for the title in any larger sense.

[Driad]

 

I can see the logic that what people called those figures at the time is more historically correct. It doesn't have to be a tacit admission of legitimacy for the title in any larger sense.

Understood.  I was just pointing out that there are alternative words, and wondering if anyone knows why Gates chose the ones he did.

[bybrandy]

Ty's story was awesome.  Not just that the story held true but also the homesteader and then being able to go back another two generations and the photograph.   That's an awesome find.   

 

I had no idea this show would be back after the Afleck thing so  I was super excited when  my TiVo found it for me.  Good episode can't wait for the rest.   

Edited January 6, 2016 by bybrandy

[SimoneS]

I found Kara's attitude towards her ancestor working for the Confederacy bizarre for someone who does so much art related to slavery and exploitation. Yes, he was paid, but the consequences likely would have been severe if he had refused to this work. He might have been free technically, but that does not mean that he had the rights that we associate with being a free person today.

[charmed1]

Donna Brazile's reaction to finding Nellie was similar to mine when I found Jim. I was absolutely overcome with emotion and found myself weeping in front of my computer screen. I wanted to trade places with the character, Dana in Kindred and send myself back to save him, comfort him, thank him for all the hell he endured for had it not been for him, I would not exist.

I have a lot of respect for Ty. Whereas Gates seemed to want him to almost embrace Mask, Ty recognized him for the utter piece of shit he was and instead, proudly claimed his maternal ancestry.

Kara just seems to be an awkward person in general and maybe not so comfortable in front of the camera.

Edited January 6, 2016 by charmed1

[stormy]

I was unfamiliar with Ty. His story was one of the most interesting that's been on the show.

Donna's tears for her 3rd (or 4th couldn't keep up) great aunt was so emotional, I cried with her.

[junemeatcleaver]

I wonder how many people have similar stories as Ty does.  I think I heard once that something like 10% of white Americans have at least one black descendant, he can't be the only person whose family and community whispered about old negro grandpappy, grandma or auntie.

 

ETA:  Oops, it's probably more like four percent, but that's still a decent amount of people.

Edited January 6, 2016 by junemeatcleaver

[Kromm]

I wonder how many people have similar stories as Ty does.  I think I heard once that something like 10% of white Americans have at least one black descendant, he can't be the only person whose family and community whispered about old negro grandpappy, grandma or auntie.

 

ETA:  Oops, it's probably more like four percent, but that's still a decent amount of people.

June, do you mean ancestor?

[junemeatcleaver]

 

June, do you mean ancestor?

 

Yes.  I mix those words up frequently.

[Milz]

I wonder how many people have similar stories as Ty does.  I think I heard once that something like 10% of white Americans have at least one black descendant, he can't be the only person whose family and community whispered about old negro grandpappy, grandma or auntie.

 

ETA:  Oops, it's probably more like four percent, but that's still a decent amount of people.

 

I have no proof to back this up, but my gut feeling is that the "native american" ancestor 3 or 4 generations back is really an African-American ancestor.

[One Imaginary Girl]

Heh.  We have that Cherokee story in part of my family, and I've found a few things that indicate they were actually black, but it's hard to get people to let go of that belief, I'm sorry to say.

[attica]

I got the distinct impression that these three stories were shown first, and edited in such a way as to throw maaaaaaajor shade at Affleck. All of these showed historical evidence that a great many folk would try to downplay. Family rapes? Glad to know it, even if it's upsetting! Former slave working for the Confederacy? Bitches better have his money! Family story believed enough to put in a memoir (mostly) debunked? Let's go!

 

If so, I approve the shade. If not, still compelling stories. 

 

I was just pointing out that there are alternative words, and wondering if anyone knows why Gates chose the ones he did.

 

I suspect he uses the more loaded term specifically to evoke in listeners the horror of the concept rather than to grant it legitimacy. Gates is not a man careless with words.

 

And can I just say that the family history text that talked about how 'attractive' a twelve year old 'must have been' in order to get herself raped by her master made me temporarily rage-blind? Talk about your victim-blaming, for the the sympathy it then poured on to the notion of a 13-year old giving birth. Arrrrrgh.

[kassa]

I have a lot of respect for Ty. Whereas Gates seemed to want him to almost embrace Mask, Ty recognized him for the utter piece of shit he was and instead, proudly claimed his maternal ancestry.

 

 

Very reminiscent of Anderson Cooper basically saying his ancestor had it coming when he was murdered by one of his slaves.  

 

I appreciated Ty trying to process the dissonance of not being able to claim one ancestor without acknowledging the other, and admitting it's not something you can just do easily.  That, Mr. Affleck, is how you do it!  I hope they got him some further info on the Mask line -- I'm sure there were perfectly nice people in that family as well that he will be proud to be descended from, even if there were some awful branches in the tree.

 

It's been a few days, so I don't remember specifics, and it's possible that there's more research that they don't go into on-camera for time constraint reasons, but I remain troubled by the assumption that "your ancestor's last name was Smith, so we looked to see if there were any Smith slaveholders in that county, and sure enough, one of them owned a 12 year old boy -- that's your great great great grandfather!"

 

Yes, slaves often took their "owner" names which always bewildered me until somebody pointed out that it made it easier to reconnect with other people who had been dispersed from the family circle over the years.  That makes sense.  But it's also possible that if the person had no intention of taking their "owner's" name, that they might take the name of somebody they admired -- maybe a local guy (white or black) who gave them a job, or just had a name that sounded like the kind of name you'd want if you could pick your own last name.  

 

I know they double check with the DNA of descendents and the duplications provide confirmation, but that gets lost in separating the DNA segments from the paper trail segments and novice genealogists could get confused.

Edited January 11, 2016 by kassa

[AuntiePam]

This was an amazing, emotional episode.  I really wanted Donna's story to be true, of the sisters who refused to be separated.  But it's not realistic to expect that a slave owner would for one second consider the feelings of his "property" when deciding whom to sell.  At least three of the sisters were able to stay together, for awhile anyway.  I'd like to believe that Perene found her family one day.

 

Ditto on assuming that date and age and same last name means they've found the right person, especially when the name is fairly common. 

 

I was doubtful about the photo of Ty's (?) black ancestor.  That was the whitest looking man I've ever seen.  He looked like Mr. Peabody from the Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoons. 

[attica]

He looked like Mr. Peabody from the Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoons.

 

Then it's totally appropriate that Burrell voiced Peabody in the recent movie remake!

[bybrandy]

I have a lot of respect for Ty. Whereas Gates seemed to want him to almost embrace Mask, Ty recognized him for the utter piece of shit he was and instead, proudly claimed his maternal ancestry.

 

I didn't get the impression Gates was trying to get Ty to embrace Mask.  I think he was just asking him how he felt.   The fact of the matter is that Mask is as much of Ty's DNA as the girl Mask raped.   That's a hard thing and how you feel about that is an interesting question.   Ty was pretty uncomfortable about it while acknowledging that it was part of his story even if he didn't like that part much.

 

I think in some ways this goes back to throwing shade at Afleck.   Or at least it was my reaction.  You might not like some of the things that got you here but you really can't divorce yourself from it.  And quite frankly why would you want to?  That girl survived being raped, raised her kid to be a very strong woman.  She had to have been to make a real go out of her Homestead.    

[kassa]

Keep in mind (if you saw earlier Gates genealogy/genetics shows) that on one of them Gates found out that he himself has 50% white/European ancestry, a percentage way, way higher than he had ever imagined.  He found it mindblowing and I think he's fascinated to see how other people process their own surprises.

[rhys]

So no one watched the Irish epi? I missed the first half hour, but I enjoyed the last 30.

[magdalene]

I watched it.  And had a good laugh learning that Bill Maher and Bill O'Reilly are related to each other. And descended from an Irish warrior king. 

 

I really don't understand Affleck and his moral cowardice that almost got this program cancelled. If you can't embrace all you came from - and there are probably negative parts to most everybodys roots somewhere, somehow - have the guts to accept it, warts and all.  

 

It's absolutely fascinating what these researchers can find out and how far back they can go. And the DNA testing is a gift.

 

Personally, I come from an area in Europe that makes it highly likely that I may have Neanderthal DNA. If I ever manage to have that confirmed I would be enchanted and honored.

[Driad]

Is there a list somewhere of the sources they used? I have no Irish ancestry but have been trying to help friends who do.

Magdalene -- last time I checked, 23andMe tests for Neanderthal among other things.

[bybrandy]

23 and me does check for neaderthal DNA.  

[charmed1]

Keep in mind (if you saw earlier Gates genealogy/genetics shows) that on one of them Gates found out that he himself has 50% white/European ancestry, a percentage way, way higher than he had ever imagined. He found it mindblowing and I think he's fascinated to see how other people process their own surprises.

Yes. I remember we discussed it way back on the TWOP boards (I think) and I remember I and some other posters thought his reaction seemed...for lack of a better word...gleeful and I remember being turned off by it and him for it. And you're right, he's fascinated by other people's reactions to their surprises and I think he expects them to be gleeful too. I will never forget Don Cheadle's reaction to discovering his ancestors had been owned by Native Americans lol.

I tried watching the Irish American episode, but I'm severely allergic to Bill O'Reilly. When he pontificated about scolding his peers about racism with, "What about Willie Mays?" I turned it off. It's on my DVR, so I'll watch it later and FF through the falafel's segments.

[kassygreene]

O'Reilly is apparently the same "guy" he is when he is "off-duty" as he is when he is "working" - or maybe the presence of a running camera just flips a switch for him.  But the disdainful and pompous way he read things, even the good things about his grandfather & great-grandfather, was really off-putting for me.  And Gates seemed to be very deliberately neutral with him.

 

Although finding out O'Reilly and Mahrer are closely related (DNA-wise) was a hoot.  The only thing worse for BO would have been finding a close relationship to Keith Olbermann...

 

I really like Soledad O'Brien.  She seemed to be taking it all very personally, but not tragically.

[Jadzia]

I laughed out loud for about 5 minutes when Gates told Bill Maher his ancestors were "clansman" with Bill O'Reilly's and he quipped "He still is." I've always loved Maher's quick wit.

 

And I was also rolling my eyes at Bill O'Reilly pontificating about how not racist he was growing up. It was like he was trying to get in good with Skip Gates or something because he is black. It had absolutely nothing to do with his story and came off as a "some of my best friends are black!" defensiveness. Like, wow, you liked a black baseball player! How open-minded of you, Bill'O'Reilly. /rollseyes

[kassa]

I was stunned by how tall O'Reilly is.  I suppose I've always just seen him seated.  It was almost comical when they walked down the street together.  

 

I really liked Soledad O'Brien.  

 

 

The National Geographic Genographic project also tests for Neanderthal.  

[Milz]

I loved Soledad O'Brien's reaction to her Scottish ancestor who ran a gang of teenaged thieves.  I think that was also an Affleck Slap.

 

I never liked O'Reilly or Mahrer,  so I bet that gene sequence they share is probably the one for being obnoxious blowhards.

 

This show is so thought-provoking for me because I keep thinking, "I gotta write down what grandma told me" because no one else listened to her stories about her side of the family. At family get-togethers, the moment she would open her mouth about her father's store or what her mother's aunt, most of the family would ignore her or get some more food to eat.  :-(

[charmed1]

I laughed out loud for about 5 minutes when Gates told Bill Maher his ancestors were "clansman" with Bill O'Reilly's and he quipped "He still is." I've always loved Maher's quick wit.

And I was also rolling my eyes at Bill O'Reilly pontificating about how not racist he was growing up. It was like he was trying to get in good with Skip Gates or something because he is black. It had absolutely nothing to do with his story and came off as a "some of my best friends are black!" defensiveness. Like, wow, you liked a black baseball player! How open-minded of you, Bill'O'Reilly. /rollseyes

Oh yeah and the waxing poetic about how his parents and grandparents never ever whined or complained was definitely a shout out to us lazy minorities who just sit around on our duff looking for our hand outs. Pfft. Newsflash Falafel boy. Most people reminisce about that generation the same way. I'm sure my grandfather had it a lot tougher than the O'Reillys could ever imagine and I never heard him whine or complain either. That's partly why people refer to them as the greatest generation. But I also only knew my grandfather as an old man. He could've been the whiniest little kid ever and I'd never know it. Neither would any of his children.

How is it that Bill Maher has retained the exact same face since infancy? It's like a hybrid of Peyton Manning and Disney's Doug.

Edited January 13, 2016 by charmed1

[Milz]

Oh yeah and the waxing poetic about how his parents and grandparents never ever whined or complained was definitely a shout out to us lazy minorities who just sit around on our duff looking for our hand outs. Pfft. Newsflash Falafel boy. Most people reminisce about that generation the same way. I'm sure my grandfather had it a lot tougher than the O'Reillys could ever imagine and I never heard him whine or complain either. That's partly why people refer to them as the greatest generation. But I also only knew my grandfather as an old man. He could've been the whiniest little kid ever and I'd never know it. Neither would any of his children.

How is it that Bill Maher has had the exact same face since being an infant? It's like a hybrid of Peyton Manning and Disney's Doug.

 

You're right that no one portrays their younger selves as whiny. And no one portrays their ancestors as lazy. So I wouldn't take O'Reilly's sentiments too much to heart to the point that it makes you feel bad. 

 

Re: people.....wanna see something really scary? If your grandparents or parents have baby photos, compare those photos to their photos when they are 70 years and older. Most elderly people start looking like they did when they were babies/toddlers.

[stormy]

Boring episode for me. And I love Soledad.

[magdalene]

Soledad O'Brian did look a bit taken aback by the Australian convict ancestor at first.

 

IMO the transporting people to Australia thing is hardly a bright spot of England's legal system a the time. Considering that some of the "criminals" transported were starving folks guilty of stealing a loaf of bread or poaching small game.

 

Bill O'Reilly is so full of himself the word "smug" could have been invented for him.  He makes me laugh.

[AuntiePam]

This show is so thought-provoking for me because I keep thinking, "I gotta write down what grandma told me" because no one else listened to her stories about her side of the family. At family get-togethers, the moment she would open her mouth about her father's store or what her mother's aunt, most of the family would ignore her or get some more food to eat.  :-(

 

So true.  Last summer I met a relative-by-marriage who grew up in Malta during WWII.  Which I wouldn't have learned except that I was rude enough to ask about her accent.  She was entertaining and funny and I hope her kids and grandkids enjoy her stories as much as I did. 

 

It made me wish there was a genealogy show for ordinary people, because ordinary people are often quite extraordinary.

[charmed1]

Bill O'Reilly is so full of himself the word "smug" could have been invented for him. He makes me laugh.

Oh boy, when he found out he was a descendant of Nile the Hostager or whatever, he used it as an opportunity to show how awesome he is and how it all makes sense because he's a warrior like old Nile. Because a guy who holds people's family members hostage sure sounds like a real cool dude, Bill. I really thought he was being sarcastic about being a warrior, but he was totally serious. And that cracked me up.

[Driad]

It made me wish there was a genealogy show for ordinary people, because ordinary people are often quite extraordinary.

Many of us agree, judging from comments.  Featuring celebrities may attract viewers who like the celebrities but aren't into genealogy.  On the other hand, viewers who can't stand one of the celebrities can find it difficult to watch.

 

PBS's Genealogy Roadshow http://www.pbs.org/genealogy-roadshow/home/

explores the families of non-celebrities.  Some of their stories are great.  Its third season will start on May 17, 2016.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Driad

[Milz]

RE: transportation of criminals

 

For awhile England used Virginia, the Carolinas and ( I think) Georgia as penal colonies in the New World.

 

What would be interesting is if HLGJr  finds a "Home Child" descendant and tries to retrace his/her ancestry. the Home Children was a program the UK had in the 1800s and early 1900s where the orphans and poor children were shipped to Canada and adopted by Canadian families. As you can imagine, the experiences varied from the adoptees being treated like family members to them being used as cheap labor by the families.

[Lovecat]

RE: transportation of criminals

 

For awhile England used Virginia, the Carolinas and ( I think) Georgia as penal colonies in the New World.

 

What would be interesting is if HLGJr  finds a "Home Child" descendant and tries to retrace his/her ancestry. the Home Children was a program the UK had in the 1800s and early 1900s where the orphans and poor children were shipped to Canada and adopted by Canadian families. As you can imagine, the experiences varied from the adoptees being treated like family members to them being used as cheap labor by the families.

A descendant of one of the Orphan Train children would be equally interesting.  It was similar to the Home Children program, but within the US. 

[Pepper Mostly]

Like the Orphan Trains program in the US.

 

O'Reilly makes me gag. Soledad was really cool and I loved her equanimity about her Scottish teenage thief ancestor, and his Fagin-esque mother! I would love to find something like that in my tree--what a great story! It reminds me of The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, when she proudly claims descent from Willie Brodie "A highwayman and designer of gibbets", who was hanged on a gibbet of his own devising.

 

Hahaha Lovecat--jinx!!

Edited January 14, 2016 by Pepper Mostly

[kassa]

Oh boy, when he found out he was a descendant of Nile the Hostager or whatever, he used it as an opportunity to show how awesome he is and how it all makes sense because he's a warrior like old Nile.

 

That was a hoot - you know they left that in to make him look like a blowhard, because MILLIONS of people are descended from Niall. 1 in 12 men in Ireland.  Almost a quarter of Irish men in certain counties in Ireland.  And, consequently, lots of Americans.  So, yeah, Bill, every.single.one.of.them inherited his super duper manly manly qualities.  (Would have loved for Gates to have said "um, yeah, I'm descended from him, too.  And Frank the camera guy.  And the kid who put your microphone on.  We are all bad asses because of that ancestor from 1600 years ago.  Breaking news, O'Reilly, you're also descended from mitochondrial Eve ("I knew it," he'd be bound to reply.)

 

 

I liked Soledad O'Brien, but she was sure quick to jump to "she was a widow with kids and no support -- that's why she had to steal."  In no way am I minimizing the horrors of early widowhood on mothers of many children in impoverished circumstances -- I've got a couple of awful situations in my own family tree.  But millions of women were in that situation, and they didn't all run burglary rings.  With other people's children (it wasn't her own children that got arrested with her).

 

It made me remember fondly Jesse Tyler Ferguson's reaction to some ancestor murdering her husband -- his Dad made a sympathetic noise about a lot of women being in awful marriages or something and he just rolled his eyes and blasted out "yeah, but they don't commit MURDER!" or something like that, which made me want to hug him.

Edited January 14, 2016 by kassa

[carrps]

No one's mentioned how Soledad O'Brien's mom was upset at Stephen Colbert "making fun of her" and his turning out to be a cousin. Heh. That cracked me up more than Maher and O'Reilly's relationship.

 

And, man, Bill Maher's poor sister .... she looks just like him.

[StatMom]

Oh boy, when he found out he was a descendant of Nile the Hostager or whatever, he used it as an opportunity to show how awesome he is and how it all makes sense because he's a warrior like old Nile. Because a guy who holds people's family members hostage sure sounds like a real cool dude, Bill. I really thought he was being sarcastic about being a warrior, but he was totally serious. And that cracked me up.

It's funny how the subjects respond so personally to information about ancestors 4+ generations before themselves. And this far back, this Niall dude from centuries ago was one of hundreds (thousands, maybe?) of people who contributed to BO's DNA. But yep, that's why BO is the way he is: this one guy way up in his lineage. Not to just pick on BO (although that's fun...), but many of the participants do this same kind of thing. "Yeah, I can see myself in my 3X-great-grandmother, because she was sassy, too!"

[attica]

No one's mentioned how Soledad O'Brien's mom was upset at Stephen Colbert "making fun of her" and his turning out to be a cousin. Heh.

 

Yeah, but he's Soledad's cousin, not her mom's. So she can still be mad. :)

 

Skip: "Thank God for the Church, without which we couldn't have traced your tree." Maher: "Let's not get carried away, there, Skip!" Hee!

[Milz]

It's funny how the subjects respond so personally to information about ancestors 4+ generations before themselves. And this far back, this Niall dude from centuries ago was one of hundreds (thousands, maybe?) of people who contributed to BO's DNA. But yep, that's why BO is the way he is: this one guy way up in his lineage. Not to just pick on BO (although that's fun...), but many of the participants do this same kind of thing. "Yeah, I can see myself in my 3X-great-grandmother, because she was sassy, too!"

 

I think that's human nature. I grew up with a guy who was a 5th or 6th cousin of Tony Dorsett (NFL running back, played with Dallas and Denver). The guy thought he was the best football player in our neighborhood because he was Dorsett's 5th or 6th cousin (didn't even make JV in high school).

[kassa]

And this far back, this Niall dude from centuries ago was one of hundreds (thousands, maybe?) of people who contributed to BO's DNA.

 

 

Close to a million, mathematically.  Except there weren't that many actual people, because populations bottlenecked here and there due to disease (and people didn't move around, so you were stuck with what was around, and married cousins) so a lot of your ancestors duplicate the further you go back.   It was the year 400-500.  

 

Something like 80% of people in England (and many elsewhere) descend from Edward III -- some individuals just were lucky enough to have a lot of offspring who lived to adulthood who themselves had a lot of offspring and maintained enough worldly and genetic success that their genes continue to be passed on for centuries.  Lots of nameless poor people, too - we just can't track them as well.

[Arynm]

Personally, I come from an area in Europe that makes it highly likely that I may have Neanderthal DNA. If I ever manage to have that confirmed I would be enchanted and honored.

I have my report from 23 and me and am proud to report that I am 4% Neanderthal. Not really sure what to do with that, but it's fun to know.