Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[yellowfred]

Why'd they make Stannis such a religious zealot?  Why'd they make Robb's wife such a completely different person?  Why'd they make Reek's origin story such a thing we had to watch?

Discuss.

[BlackberryJam]

I haven't read the books, but instead have a friend who memorized them who tells me all of the book stuff, but I'll jump in.

I kind of love Stannis, but only because of the "four fewer, not less" comment to Davos.  Stannis is such a complete and utter tool in that scene that I decided to love him forever.

Robb's wife sucked.  Everything about her sucked.  It's some huge deal that Brienne, a highborn maid, leaves her home to follow Renly to become a knight, but Talisa, a highborn maid, can leave her home to become a doctor/camp follower and it's no big deal.  Talisa was self-righteous, sanctimonious and generally unlikable.  Not sure why they made the change from the book, but it was a mistake. 

Theon/Reek.  Torture-porn is a thing I guess.  It was much more powerful to see Jaime get his hand cut off and then the screen go black rather than scene about scene of Theon in pain.

[Eegah]

Talisa gets the lion's share of the attention with this kind of thing (pun sort of intended), but one I really became worried about during season three is the portrayal of Shae. Her distrust of Tyrion comes right the hell out of nowhere, especially the first scene of it long before he's engaged to Sansa. It really seems like they made her such a different (and I would certainly argue better) character without thinking ahead at all to what the implications would be down the line, and now they're struggling to smash the square peg they created into the round hole of her role in the books at this point.

About Theon, I just viewed it as a necessary evil: putting Alfie Allen out of work for two years, during which he might have gotten another long term gig that would allow him less time for the show when it was time to come back, wasn't an option, so they did the best they could with what little they had to work with.

[Carrie Ann]

I didn't like Talisa either, but she was more of a character than Jeyne. At least they tried to provide some reason that Robb would be such an idiot. In the books, you just had to sort of infer that they had some connection.

[plurie]

 

I didn't like Talisa either, but she was more of a character than Jeyne. At least they tried to provide some reason that Robb would be such an idiot. In the books, you just had to sort of infer that they had some connection.

I have to disagree. In the books, Robb was mourning Bran and Rickon and had a moment of weakness with Jeyne. He then found out she was knocked up, and married her to save her reputation.

In the tv series, he falls in "love" with a woman with a mysterious past and marries her even though he's already engaged to one of the Freys.

I never bought the character, nor the romance. And Robb just looks like an idiot.

[BlackberryJam]

I have to second the "Robb just looks like an idiot."  My understanding of the books is that Robb married Jeyne out of honor, furthering the "People who are so tied to their honor suffer for it" theme.  Having Robb marry useless character with no ties to any other family doesn't move the story along or create another thread in the tapestry of the show. 

Edited April 4, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[Eegah]

And of course, unlike in the books he seems to have no concept of why it would be a bad idea to parade his new wife in front of the Freys.

Not helping at all is that I swear the show's crew has a gag order on this topic. It's really kind of ballsy how throughout every commentary and interview, they just pretend that no one could possibly be curious about the reasoning behind these changes.

[mac123x]

I have to second the "Robb just looks like an idiot."  My understanding of the books is that Robb married Jeyne out of honor, furthering the "People who are so tied to their honor suffer for it" theme.

In Jaime’s chapters after he’s taken Riverrun, it’s implied that Jayne’s mother might have slipped Robb a love-potion so he’d fall for Jayne, as part of a plot by Tywin Lannister. 

He’s also only 16 in the books, and more prone to impulsive actions, whether under the influence of a love potion or not.  In the show, he’s a grown man, and makes a considered decision (even talking to his mother about it before hand) to marry Talisa, so he’s definitely an idiot.

He then found out she was knocked up, and married her to save her reputation.

She’s not pregnant; Jaime asked her point-blank and she said she wasn’t.  As part of her family’s deal with the Lannisters, she could get remarried but only after 2 years so there wouldn’t be any doubt that any subsequent kids were Robb’s.   Robb married her because he took her virginity and felt it was the honorable thing to do.  Again, with the “honor before reason will kill you” theme.

Of course, there’s a conspiracy theory that the young girl Jaime met was an impostor since his PoV description of her differed from Catelyn’s.  If that’s true, the real Jayne could be in hiding, pregnant with a main character for Game of Thrones: The Next Generation.

[cheyz]

Wasn't Robb also injured in battle and Jeyne nursed him?

[charis]

Left my Kindle at home so I can't double-check, but I think you're right, cheyz -- and it plays to GRRM's fondness for upending cliches, with the "nursed back to health and fell in love" idea.  I remember a combination of injury, grief, and probably drugs being responsible for Robb's initial mistake, and then the honour that goes with being Ned's son and heir prompting him to marry her (possibly compounded by shocked reactions from whatever relatives found them the morning after he deflowered her?).

[Haleth]

Yeah, they were shocked shocked! to find Robb in Jeyne's bed!  <snerk>

Edited April 4, 2014 by Haleth

[Independent George]

In Jaime’s chapters after he’s taken Riverrun, it’s implied that Jayne’s mother might have slipped Robb a love-potion so he’d fall for Jayne, as part of a plot by Tywin Lannister.

Jeyne was given an abortifacent to guard against pregnancy; I don't believe a 'love potion' was ever implied.

[yellowfred]

Talisa gets the lion's share of the attention with this kind of thing (pun sort of intended), but one I really became worried about during season three is the portrayal of Shae. Her distrust of Tyrion comes right the hell out of nowhere, especially the first scene of it long before he's engaged to Sansa. It really seems like they made her such a different (and I would certainly argue better) character without thinking ahead at all to what the implications would be down the line, and now they're struggling to smash the square peg they created into the round hole of her role in the books at this point.

I definitely agree.  Shae's upcoming storyline is easily the one I'm most worried about.  I feel like they've taken the character so far from her book counterpart that I don't know how they're going to have her hit the same points.  Right now, I don't know which would surprise me more:  if she actually believes that Tyrion and Sansa are plotting together or if she testifies to it because of the bribe Cercei offers her.

Either way, I also agree that the changes they made were for the better.  Having her actually be invested in her relationship with Tyrion and giving her an actual relationship with Sansa makes their whole situation much more complicated.  Plus, it was nice for Sansa to have someone to talk to honestly, and bonus points for it not being another older guy that she's still at least a little bit creeped out by.

 

Jeyne was given an abortifacent to guard against pregnancy; I don't believe a 'love potion' was ever implied.

Yeah, that's how I remember it as well.  Her mom was telling her that it was to help her conceive, but it was actually moon tea.

I think one of the biggest things that bothered me about the show's handling of this storyline was the fact that they moved both Robb and Catelyn hearing that Bran and Rickon were dead, since that was such a catalyst for each of them making pretty questionable choices (Robb getting married and Catelyn releasing Jaime).

[sev]

About Theon, I just viewed it as a necessary evil: putting Alfie Allen out of work for two years, during which he might have gotten another long term gig that would allow him less time for the show when it was time to come back, wasn't an option, so they did the best they could with what little they had to work with.

On the oder hand, as much as it is a good thing to hold on to Alfie Allen, Theon is supposed to become almost unrecognizable as Reek. Having his come back played by a different actor might have served the story, making viewers wonder about the identity of the character.

I'm just weighing it against fast forwarding though the torture scenes, as I found myself doing during the latest rewatch of s03.

Edited April 5, 2014 by sev

[jeansheridan]

Hello.  New to these forums.  I've read all five books (much to my horror sometimes).  If they actually have Shae betray Tyrion with Tywin on the show, I think it will have a lot more impact than it did in the books.   I think the show will have to show us see Tywin and Shae together in a few scenes (not flirting, but Tywin noticing her).  That has the advantage of making the non-spoiled viewers worried for Shae's safety since that's the big danger for her--if Tywin finds out what she is she's is seemingly dead.  

But if we get a hint that he's charmed by her, however little that hint might be, that will help establish the moment when Tyrion discovers the truth. In the book fact that she ends up in his bed is kind of a WTF moment.    It felt like Martin was just piling on at that point, but I think it will work on the show.  

Regarding Robb's foolishness for marrying for love rather than politics, I think this show's theme is more about the fallout from "love".  Jaime says it in the first episode, "The things I do for love." or something like that and everything on the show stems from that idea really.  Ned confesses out of love for his daughter, Caitlyn attacks Tyrion out of love for her son,  Robert started the rebellion out of love for Ned's dead sister (Alanna?  What is her name?  My money is on that she is Jon's mom by the way).  And on and on.  I am hoping that eventually love isn't a liability on this show.  And I guess Dany's plotline sort of indicates that her love for her husband gave her strength and power.  So that's something.  She took a political alliance and made it a love alliance.  

[Haleth]

If they actually have Shae betray Tyrion with Tywin on the show, I think it will have a lot more impact than it did in the books.

 

There was a big discussion in the TWOP spoiler thread about how Shae will end up dead.  Although there is some foreshadowing that she will become so angry at Tyrion that she testifies against him and then seduces his father, I'm still thinking it will be Tywin rather than Tyrion that kills her.  The show writers have made Tyrion one of the story's heroes so it would be out of character for him to kill his lover in an impassioned rage.  I can see him finding Shae dead in his father's bed and then killing Tywin in a different sort of rage.  The extent to which Shae betrays Tyrion is going to be a shock to those who haven't read the book.  I've seen comments where someone said they hope she's rewarded for her loyalty.  Wish granted.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Haleth

[Ffiferoo]

They did fit in that scene of Tyrion giving Shae a gold chain last season though - since they basically scrapped the chain he wore as hand (except in Blackwater), it seemed to me like this was setting up an equivalent of that for the scene where he kills her.  I think they're just going to play up Shae feeling betrayed as the show versions of Tyrion and Sansa get along more and build up some sort of relationship.  They could take it in another direction, but it seems like they're not having Sansa be as cold and tight-lipped toward him as she is in the books (which makes sense, I suppose, since show!Tyrion is nicer and more attractive).  

My biggest concern going into this season is that Jaime and Brienne are already in King's Landing.  While it will be nice for Jaime to have some scenes with Tyrion before the shit hits the fan, I'm really bothered that he's going to be at the wedding.  It messes with so much of the uncertainty surrounding Tyrion's guilt for him, and it makes him more responsible for failing to save Joffrey, rather than just Cersei being angry that he wasn't there.  Plus I feel like it's uncharacteristic of Brienne to be able to sit by and attend events while Sansa is there in the same place.  

[joliefaire]

^^  Well, re Jaime at the wedding, they can do what they did with Blackfish at the RW, have him leave the room for some reason, just before Joffrey Drinks the Purple. 

[jeansheridan]

And I think Brienne will be in a cell during the wedding.  The Knight of Flowers will be angry to see her.  At least she might get a look at Sansa.  In the books she had no clue.  

I like the idea of Jaime helpless at the wedding.  It gives Cercei another reason to despise him.  In book four her contempt for him is obvious.  I love Jaime & want him away from her.  I don't ship him with Brienne because what he needs is a friend & she is ideal.

[joliefaire]

I just saw this in a Bookwalker thread on another board.  Thought it was pretty funny.

I wonder how the part of Oberyn Martell was described to Pedro Pascal.

"So yes, you're going after Gregor Clegane to avenge your family."

"Great."

"There's this big battle, and you're totally kicking his ass."

"Sounds good."

"And then..."

"You've got to be kidding me."

[rogueprinzess]

They did fit in that scene of Tyrion giving Shae a gold chain last season though - since they basically scrapped the chain he wore as hand (except in Blackwater), it seemed to me like this was setting up an equivalent of that for the scene where he kills her.  I think they're just going to play up Shae feeling betrayed as the show versions of Tyrion and Sansa get along more and build up some sort of relationship.

 

I do hope they stay true to the books and have Tyrion be the one to kill her. I always found it interesting that in the subsequent time after the murders that Tyrion's guilt and nightmares were about killing his father not so much Shae, which spoke volumes about how much he really "loved" her. I think allowing him to do this in the show would show another facet to Tyrion, a darker more visceral side of him that the books did and I personally enjoyed. As for Shae's "motivation" I suppose it wouldn't hurt to show her getting jealous and going to Tywin out of revenge, but I again liked how the book just made her out to be what she was - a prostitute whose utmost goals were money, power/position and security. There are many characters in the world of GoT that are exactly the same (i.e. Cersei) but try to hide it behind honor, responsibility etc.

And I think Brienne will be in a cell during the wedding.  The Knight of Flowers will be angry to see her.  At least she might get a look at Sansa.  In the books she had no clue

 

It's believable that Jaime could be in King's Landing when the wedding occurs, but due to his injuries and recovery that he was allowed to rest instead of attend. Not to mention that his losing his sword hand would not have reflected well on the Lannisters or the King's Guard. So again, it could be plausible that he stay out of sight (of the highborns of the south) until Tywin decided there was a way to spin it in a way that would have the Lannisters still looking strong. Also, I kinda like the idea of Brienne seeing Sansa but not being able to get anywhere near her and frustrating her vow to Catelyn. It makes for good angst.

[Grammaeryn]

Anyone know when Joffrey's wedding is supposed to happen?  This is giving me so much glee as a book reader.  I think the internet will break!  I've been wondering how the show will handle Arya's many faces.  If done well, CGI could work but it might be more impactful to have a completely different actress and then reveal it's Arya afterwards.

[joliefaire]

Anyone know when Joffrey's wedding is supposed to happen? 

Episode 2 'The Lion and the Rose'

[sunflower]

 

Anyone know when Joffrey's wedding is supposed to happen?  This is giving me so much glee as a book reader.  I think the internet will break!

It was so weird for me to read the Joffrey wedding/death part of the book because I had watched the 3 seasons then started reading the books.   So, basically, this was the section of book 3 when I got ahead of the tv series. It was so surreal, it felt like I was doing something wrong.  It was awesome.  I cannot wait.  

Edited April 6, 2014 by sunflower

[jeansheridan]

I am a bit concerned non-readers will feel it is all a bit much losing Robb & Joffrey & Tywin & Shae.  Zombie-Cat might break them too.  I hate Zombie Cat.  Thus far she isn't on page much but her existence annoys me.  Oh and Bran merging with a tree might be a bit much too.   The book plots start getting more bizarre in 4 & 5 and I hope the show runners make adjustments.

[sunflower]

 

I hate Zombie Cat.  Thus far she isn't on page much but her existence annoys me.  Oh and Bran merging with a tree might be a bit much too.

Zombie Cat was a cool ending for book 3, but in practice for books 4 and 5, I fucking hated her.  I worry for Jaime.  Also, Bran and the tree bullshit just made me sad for Bran, like his whole life was being ruined even further.  Bran as a tree?  Notice, both these aspects are the more magical, supernatural end of the story.  

[yellowfred]

Although there is some foreshadowing that she will become so angry at Tyrion that she testifies against him and then seduces his father, I'm still thinking it will be Tywin rather than Tyrion that kills her.  The show writers have made Tyrion one of the story's heroes so it would be out of character for him to kill his lover in an impassioned rage.  I can see him finding Shae dead in his father's bed and then killing Tywin in a different sort of rage.

I'll be very disappointed if they have Tywin, instead of Tyrion, killing Shae.  I feel like they've already changed a lot of smaller things to make Tyrion nicer than he is in the books, but changing that would be taking it too far, in my opinion.

 

My biggest concern going into this season is that Jaime and Brienne are already in King's Landing.  While it will be nice for Jaime to have some scenes with Tyrion before the shit hits the fan, I'm really bothered that he's going to be at the wedding.  It messes with so much of the uncertainty surrounding Tyrion's guilt for him, and it makes him more responsible for failing to save Joffrey, rather than just Cersei being angry that he wasn't there. 

To be fair, plenty of people who were in the room still thought Tyrion did it.  The whole thing was set up to look like Tyrion did it.  So Jaime could be there, see the same stuff that everyone else did, and still not be sure if Tyrion's guilty or not.  

Edited April 7, 2014 by yellowfred

[jeansheridan]

I also think Peter Dinklage would love to go all Greek Tragedy.  He claims to have not read the books (really Peter?  I think he just doesn't want to get into discussions).  It's  a huge moment for the character and it changes his entire focus in life.  He no longer has anything left--not his brother, or lover, or the protection of the Lannister name & money.  I can't imagine they would want to change that.

I do hope they don't spend too long with Tyrion as a slave.  That whole sequence was much too long.  Is too long because he's still a slave at the end of ADWD but there's hope.    

[Joystickenvy]

I don't really care if Tyrion is the one to kill Shae, but I don't want him killing Tywin to be about Tywin killing Shae.

They do seem to be setting things up so that Shae turning on Tyrion could be a result of her jealousy & anger because of the Sansa marriage, but having things go down the same as in the book at the trial still seems out of character for show shae. Book shae seemed much more of an opportunist, whereas show shae has been portrayed as more of a hooker with a heart of gold.

I guess Cersei or Tywin could make her an offer she can't refuse or threaten Tyrion/Sansa in some way or even promise her if she testifies that they'll be merciful and not execute Tyrion.

[Andromeda]

Zombie Cat was a cool ending for book 3, but in practice for books 4 and 5, I fucking hated her. I worry for Jaime. Also, Bran and the tree bullshit just made me sad for Bran, like his whole life was being ruined even further. Bran as a tree? Notice, both these aspects are the more magical, supernatural end of the story.

I feel exactly the same on both counts. I like fantasy, but all I could think was how much better I liked Kat before she was zombiefied and how awful that bran wouldn't get to grow up and live a life.

Shae... I am counting the days until Sunday to learn how they're going to do deal with her character, since she's so different from the books.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Andromeda

[Independent George]

I hope they put off UnCat's reveal until the end of next season. They can use the season and a half preceeding it to build her up in the war-scarred Riverlands.

I hate the Thenns being made into cannibals. I hate the way the Wildlings are being treated in general, actually - in the books, one of the major purposes of Jon's trek behind the lines is to paint the Wildlings as people, no better or worse than other Northmen. In the show, all of Tormund's goofy charm has been lost, along with the locker room camraderie Jon experiences with the other raiders. the way they're portrayed on she show, the North's fanatical racism against the Wildlings is mostly justified.

At this point, I assume Alysanne Karstark is either being cut, or will get married to Tormund, because marrying her to the cannibalistic Thenns makes no sense. I wouldn't mind terribly if she's cut (it would streamline that entire arc), but I really liked how she and Jon were able to end the feud between their houses. And the WOW preview, her uncle's plot gives Stannis a moment of awesome (which makes it even more likely to be cut).

[Haleth]

I have to say I'm really, really looking forward to the reaction to next week's episode.  It seems everyone expects Joff to get his comeuppance eventually, but the Unsullied are going to be gobsmacked that it happens so soon.

[joliefaire]

QFT.  Plus, according to someone who's seen the first 3 episodes it will be deli

 

I have to say I'm really, really looking forward to the reaction to next week's episode.  It seems everyone expects Joff to get his comeuppance eventually, but the Unsullied are going to be gobsmacked that it happens so soon.

QFT.  Plus, according to someone who's seen the first 3 episodes,

it's going to be deliberately ambiguous who actually poisoned Joffs.  They're filming it the audience will see that several different people had the perfect opportunity to commit the crime.

  It'll be great fun, can't wait!

[Holmbo]

I'm wondering about the part: "Tyrion lends Jaime a hand" in the episode two description.
I thought he was gonna give him the golden hand. But now he already has it. So what sort of help will Tyrion give him? I can't think of anything obvious.

[sev]

I'm wondering about the part: "Tyrion lends Jaime a hand" in the episode two description.

I thought he was gonna give him the golden hand. But now he already has it. So what sort of help will Tyrion give him? I can't think of anything obvious.

Shouldn't that go in the BookWalker - "Spoiler speculations" thread you just made? ;)

Which btw I find a very good thread idea, because, even as a BookWalker, I don't want to know too much details of episodes to come. I'm peculiar like that. But I might be alone in that sentiment.

Edited April 11, 2014 by sev

[Holmbo]

Shouldn't that go in the BookWalker - "Spoiler speculations" thread you just made? ;)

When I started to write it I was thinking it was something that possibly happened in the book. Then as I wrote it I remembered that Jaime doesn't arrive to Kingslanding until later in the book so it couldn't be.

And actually I realized what the help must be when I thought about something that was shown in the trailers.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Holmbo

[MarySNJ]

I think the hand Tyrion lends Jaime, is to suggest that Bronn spar with Jaime.

Edited April 11, 2014 by MarySNJ

[Haldebrandt]

I also think Peter Dinklage would love to go all Greek Tragedy.  He claims to have not read the books (really Peter?  I think he just doesn't want to get into discussions).  

Why is Dinklage not having read the books surprising?  I really don't get the consensus among the fandom that the actors should read the books.  And I've watched for years as fans have blamed Headey's performance on being the only one who hadn't read the books (now it turns out she is not alone; there is at least Dinklage and Dance, and probably many others).  It's so weirdly naïve and completely misunderstands how film/tv production works.

These are actors.  Their characters are determined by the script and what the directors tell them.  In fact, reading the book could be detrimental to show runners vision if the show runners see the character differently.  Dinklage's job is to do what the show runners tell him, not what the books say. 

(Also, I know the books are bestsellers, but fans, who are typically already fantasy geeks, tend the grossly overestimate the average person's desire to pick up a thousand-pages book.  And actors especially, many of who lack college education, aren't exactly bookworms in general).

I firmly believe that many of the actors were instructed to say that they read the books to please the fandom.  Sure, some of them did (even so, some probably just read their chapters).  But it's been funny to see them come out lately admitting that they either only read the first one, or didn't read them at all.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[quarks]

In fact, reading the book could be detrimental to show runners vision if the show runners see the character differently.

 

Yes, and given that the show said upfront that it would be deviating from the books in any case, I can see the actors consciously deciding not to read the books so they could focus just on what the show was doing, not what the books did. I think Lena Headley said something along those lines back in the first season - also adding that since Cersei wouldn't know what was coming, she didn't want to know either, which makes a lot of sense.

[mac123x]

Why is Dinklage not having read the books surprising?  I really don't get the consensus among the fandom that the actors should read the books.

The commentary tracks on the DVDs frequently have some of the actors discussing the various episodes, and this topic comes up.  A couple of them have stated that they are reading the books but only up to the point where the show is. They don't want to know future events because they don't want that knowledge to subconsciously affect their performance. 

[ElizaD]

Does anyone know if there's a list somewhere about which actors have read the books?

QFT.  Plus, according to someone who's seen the first 3 episodes,

it's going to be deliberately ambiguous who actually poisoned Joffs.  They're filming it the audience will see that several different people had the perfect opportunity to commit the crime.

  It'll be great fun, can't wait!

I hope it will at least be revealed that

it was a Tyrell who did the poisoning, even if it won't be immediately clear to viewers after 4x02. Surely they have to confirm at some point that Tyrion didn't do it, it was either Margaery or Olenna with Littlefinger's lackey Dontos delivering the poison to Sansa (won't they have Littlefinger explain that when he kills Dontos in 4x03?).

[yellowfred]

I'm sure it'll have to come up at some point, but I could see it being later in the season.  

I wonder if they're going to show that whole family being involved.  In the books, I think it's only explicit that Olenna's involved, but I feel like the show has done a good job of setting up that Margaery knows the plan.  It makes more sense for her to indulge Joffrey's sadistic side if she knows she only has to put up with him for a short time.  

[joliefaire]

I agree that I feel Margaery and Olenna are in on it together.  Back when they were questioning Sansa about Joffrey and she told them he's a monster, I watched their faces, Margaery very deliberately kept that same blank half-smile on her face, and Olenna, also perfectly calm, said something  in effect of 'oh dear.'  Sansa's news was no surprise to them, they just wanted to verify it.  From then on, it would make sense that they would put their heads together to come up with A Plan--how do we manage to carry out our intentions of making Margaery the Queen, while at the same time not subjecting her to Joffrey the Monster.  Hmmmm, ponder, ponder. Solution=Joff's gotta go.  After the marriage vows, of course.

As a side note, when photos of the wedding were released (see the Previews thread), I zoomed a close-up of Margaery's necklace, just to see if for some reason it was the same one Dontos gave Sansa.  It wasn't. 

[Attaboy000]

I have to say I'm really, really looking forward to the reaction to next week's episode.  It seems everyone expects Joff to get his comeuppance eventually, but the Unsullied are going to be gobsmacked that it happens so soon.

I'm looking forward to the state of the internet after that, than the actual episode itself lol

[Danny Franks]

As usual with this show, the most interesting and captivating characters are ones I know are doomed. Oberyn Martell was bloody brilliant, in the first episode of the season. A sleek, almost reptilian sense of menace, combined with a hotheadedness to rival Jaime Lannister at his most difficult. And I want him to get his vengeance for Elia.

I remember really liking him in the books as well, when he showed up. Unfortunately, he was GRRM's latest in a long line of red herrings, and amounted to nothing so much as a distraction and a way of getting the Martells to show their hand. He was a far more interesting character than any of his daughters, that's for sure.

I can only hope that they will actually do justice to the Dorne storyline in season 5, and include Doran, Arianne, Areo Hotah and Arys Oakheart. Darkstar? Eh, I won't mind if he is cut for 'budgetary reasons'.

Why is Dinklage not having read the books surprising?  I really don't get the consensus among the fandom that the actors should read the books.  And I've watched for years as fans have blamed Headey's performance on being the only one who hadn't read the books (now it turns out she is not alone; there is at least Dinklage and Dance, and probably many others).  It's so weirdly naïve and completely misunderstands how film/tv production works.

 

As far as I'm aware, the only actor who admitted to having read all the books was Kit Harington. The rest seem to have had a policy of not reading them, or of only reading them once they'd filmed all the scenes drawn from said books (Emilia Clarke said she was doing this). And their reasoning seems completely, absolutely sound to me. 

If they read that, in book 4 something significant will happen, then how can they be sure that they don't let that colour the way they're playing their character in season 2? I imagine that, as an actor, it's hard to discount that knowledge, and I think Kit Harington has said that he had to be very conscious of that, knowing Jon's storyline in advance.

As for Lena's performance in season 1, I think it was outstanding. I think the character was written with more layers, because she wasn't being seen only through the eyes of people who hated her. We could see her as more sympathetic and conflicted and relatable because the show's viewpoint is objective, not subjective. And Lena absolutely killed it.

[Independent George]

As for Lena's performance in season 1, I think it was outstanding. I think the character was written with more layers, because she wasn't being seen only through the eyes of people who hated her. We could see her as more sympathetic and conflicted and relatable because the show's viewpoint is objective, not subjective. And Lena absolutely killed it.

Lena's my favorite actress on the show, and arguably has the most difficult role. There's so much subtlety in how she plays Cersei with so much frailty beneath her facade, and she's only gotten better as the show has gone on. 

[Danny Franks]

Lena's my favorite actress on the show, and arguably has the most difficult role. There's so much subtlety in how she plays Cersei with so much frailty beneath her facade, and she's only gotten better as the show has gone on. 

Absolutely. And Lena took the decision of playing Cersei as righteous in the things she was doing, which makes that frailty even more effective. I recall talking about Ned's death in season 1, and how Cersei actually looked upset about it as it happened. I never really believed she wanted Ned dead, and I think she actually respected him, in an 'I have no idea how your mind works, you absurdly noble fool' kind of way. But more than that, she'd won. She'd found a way for Ned to be gone forever, and for no one to have any grounds for complaint. Robb couldn't go to war against the king, because Ned had confessed and been sent to the Wall. In fact, he'd be more loyal than before, because his sister would still be in line to be queen. The men of the North and of the Riverlands would have marched alongside the Lannisters, to fight Renly and Stannis, to protect their own interests and their own alliance with King Joffrey.

Then Joffrey went and fucked it all up because he's a stupid little prick. And I don't think Cersei has ever really recovered from that, and from the independence that Joffrey established for himself afterwards.

[Independent George]

And the Stannis character assassination continues.

[MarySNJ]

And the Stannis character assassination continues.

I have to agree. He's hard to sympathize with in the books, but there's a certain kind of logic to his actions. This Stannis looks more like a religious fanatic and that's worse in a man who has a rigid sense of justice.

On the other hand, it seems Tyrion is being whitewashed. He breaks Shae's heart but makes sure she is safe away from Kings Landing. Unless she's brought back as a witness he's not going to strangling her to death. Truthfully, it's a different Shae anyway and one death at Tyrion's hands will be shocking enough, but still.

[Mya Stone]

I have a hard time believing that Shae is really gone on that boat. She was the most damning witness in the trial, after all.