S05.E11: Swan Song

[Arnella]

After all that speech of needing to take care of her heart, why did she jump back into bed a relationship with him? What about taking some time to repair the trust issues and pain? Seems an blatant ploy to leave the door open for a Rumbelle baby.

 

 

 

 

Maybe he just has mad skills in the bedroom.

 

That actually makes sense in another way.  Sex has a lot to do with confidence.  He probably didn't do her much good that way when he was back to coward mode.  So now that he is super duper DO, it should be super duper good.  If Belle doesn't suspect something from that, she is super duper stupid.

 

 

People have knocked the Storybrookers for not telling Belle about ReDark Rumple--and they're right.  She should be told.

But, considering the relationship pattern of Belle focused on whether or not Rumple's willing to sacrifice for her, not on Rumple's overall moral character, I'm not sure she would care.

He did sacrifice for her--and that's all Belle would usually see.  The way she's been written so far, as long as she can point to that personal sacrifice that places her needs/wants above his, she doesn't really care much about how others are treated.

 

Seriously, Rumple must remember how awkward keeping secrets from Belle was before and know how hard it will be to keep a secret like I"M THE FREAKIN DO from her when all her friends know already (unless he plans to kill them all in hell).  Or surely the writers remember how awkward the story lines were??

Please just let Belle embrace her inner DO groupie! 

Edited December 7, 2015 by Arnella

[Curio]

I still don't know entirely how I feel about this one. I know that I don't want to smash sharp objects into my computer screen, so it's a vast improvement over last year's winter finale. I was pretty spoiled for this episode, so I knew going in that there was a 99% chance Killian would pull a Regina and have a last-second epiphany about a flashback with his parent, and that somehow that would influence him to make a heel face turn. So at least I was prepared for that terrible storytelling technique. But there was still a lot of great acting going on, and we finally got a young Killian flashback, so that's almost enough to win me over.

 

But I also knew that Hook's death would be temporary, so even though Colin and Jen knocked it out of the park, I wasn't on pins and needles during the death scene because I kept thinking, "Oh well, they'll bring him back some how." I think that's why Birth is the far superior episode of the season because they were actually able to pull off a legitimate surprise with turning Killian into a Dark One. The audience is smart enough to know that they'd never actually kill him permanently, so the climax during this episode fell flat. However, the audience was caught off guard about him becoming a Dark One, so his random death in the middle of the arc was actually more enthralling than the finale.

 

I know this is a fairytale where a woman's happiness lies in the arms of a strong man not in her own self worth but did this have to so trite?

 

Didn't Emma spend most of Seasons 1-4 finding her self-worth before we got a full-on romance arc this year?

Edited December 7, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

That flashback was just sketchy as all get out. From cutting out the middle part of Queen of Hearts when we saw Regina toss the hat on the floor right after making her offer, to the unnecessary wardrobe change for both of them (especially Hook who has never changed vests mid-adventure when time travel wasn't involved), to Papa Hook's phony sounding sleeping curse story. So Hook just  goes back to the castle, changes back into his original vest, and cheerfully picks up Claude to go to Woderland? And he and Regina never allude to this incident again, even when she thinks he killed her mother or when he consoles her after Cora's actual death? And why does he even need to prove his mettle after she just saw him almost kill Belle, a mere stranger to him, which is exactly what Cora was to him at the time? Seriously, writers? There has got to be some sort of fuckery going on here. (I know, it's just these writers, I know) The only thing that kind of fits is that he lied to her about Cora, just like he was prepared to lie to her about his father's fate.

 

I can handwave all of that because it's this show after all, but how in the world did Regina know Hook's father was alive, and where he was? He should've been dead a century ago, but he's alive, and young, and very CLEARLY lying about his TLK story.

 

Maleficent created the sleeping curse. I don't think Maleficent was around when Hook was a 10 year old child.

 

Not a fan of Jones Sr at all. I mean I slept on it, still hate the guy. Who does that to his children? 

 

Also, dude, there's thing called vasectomy. Should consider the snip snip, deadbeat.

 

After sleeping on it, I'm okay with Regina being the one to talk DarkHook down. If Emma had done it, it would be framed as him reforming to please the woman he loves which is a weak foundation for redemption. With Regina talking him down, it becomes what he wants from himself. What kind of person he wants to be.

 

I would rather live without the retcon and Hook killing his Dad (did not grant him the redemption he himself seeks). 

 

I don't think that Rumple is actually being bribed by Emma - he is co-opting her plan. He's going to try to save Neal and I don't necessarily think he's going to use his own heart to do it (he'll probably do something gross like split Henry's heart). 

 

New name for Liam 2.0 - well, just like another Jones family with two Henry's, let's name the second one after the dog - Indiana. 

Regina put the words out there, but it's really what Nimue was doing to Emma that snapped him out of it. It's like when he pushed back the darkness, he realized what he had been working so hard for, and towards, it was like he remembered who he was.

 

Rumple is being blackmailed, but I'm sure he also knows that it's a matter of time before Belle finds out, though I'm sure she won't be doing anything about it. Belle should take a really long, careful look around her, and see how 2 former Dark Ones chose love, and each other, and then question her life choices when it comes to Rumple. I'm dreading the potential real life pregnancy being thrown in the mix.

 

Did he even tell her where he was going, or did he put her to sleep like he always does to avoid answering questions?

 

Yeah, as much as I love Emma and Hook, I'd prefer they have their own iconic love story moments/sayings versus retread Snowing lines.  I know they want to parallel those two relationships because they want to hit us over the head with them being true love, but really...we get it, writers.  Moving on...can we get some sex please? 

Yeah, that was lame. Hook has put so much emphasis on going home, and the future, that I would've rather Emma said something along the lines of bringing him home.

 

By the gathering of the dwarfs, I'm guessing that anyone who was not in the inner circle, and accompanied the gang to Camelot did not get their memories back? Leroy certainly had no idea Hook was a Dark One. 

 

That's a massive fail on the writing team's part. Shows how little everyone cares about those who aren't in the inner circle.

[kili]

So Emma's trying to blackmail Gold, but then proceeds to tell Regina, Robin, her parents and Henry the dirt she has on him? She doesn't know how blackmail works? She's supposed to keep it a secret so it's leverage.

I figured she was pulling a classic literal DO deal. "Yes, the deal was that you help me get back Hook and I won't tell Belle about your DO status, I never said I wouldn't tell others and if they told Belle, that's got nothing to do with our deal."

Seriously, Rumple must remember how awkward keeping secrets from Belle was before and know how hard it will be to keep a secret like I"M THE FREAKIN DO from her when all her friends know already (unless he plans to kill them all in hell).

Well, he does plan to kill them all in hell. I think Belle is going to notice her husband missing and dead Killian walking around town, so the very deal that Emma made will expose the truth. Rumple knows that and he is working his own plan. I just hope that being a DO gave Emma a brain transplant and she is going to know he was playing her. Surely, somebody has to come out on top of Rumple eventually. Rumple is going to try to get Bae back.

 

BTW How exactly did Henry tell Belle about Rumple's magnificent selfless act? If it was a text, I'm betting it came from Rumple himself. If it was a phone call, I still think it was Rumple. It is Oxford scholar all over again. Why would Henry be calling Belle with all that is going on? Would he even know she was gone and needed an update?

[Arnella]

 

Moving on...can we get some sex please?I'

Isn't it weird that the only time we've seen characters in the bedroom (post coitus) is Rumbelle?  I wonder why?  The only others I can remember are the pre/post rape scenes with Regina and Graham but I don't like thinking about that.

[Curio]

Isn't it weird that the only time we've seen characters in the bedroom (post coitus) is Rumbelle?  I wonder why?  The only others I can remember are the pre/post rape scenes with Regina and Graham but I don't like thinking about that.

 

Because sex = bad! on this show. But yeah, that's the first thing I thought of when I saw that Rumple/Belle scene. "Oh great, yet another sex scene that has questionable undertones."

[Watt]

We saw snow and charming once, Emma walked in on them.

[shipperx]

Speaking of dwarfs, is Dopey still a tree?

[Anakerie]

I would love to find out that Brennan Jones actually had dozens of little Liams and Killians scattered all over the world.  To paraphrase Fight Club, setting up franchises. Every few years he finds a new woman, sires a kid or kids, gives them the same name, and moves on. Now I'm imagining Hook opening up his front door to be confronted by 345 Liams and 257 Killians. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by Anakerie

[Chaos Theory]

Isn't it weird that the only time we've seen characters in the bedroom (post coitus) is Rumbelle? .

Actually we saw Snow and Charming in bed together..,and so did Emma and Henry.

This is a "family" show so I can buy a no sex before marriage thing.

<~~edited because my phone is being mean to me.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Mari]

BTW How exactly did Henry tell Belle about Rumple's magnificent selfless act? If it was a text, I'm betting it came from Rumple himself. If it was a phone call, I still think it was Rumple. It is Oxford scholar all over again. Why would Henry be calling Belle with all that is going on? Would he even know she was gone and needed an update?

This actually makes way more sense than Henry pausing in his preUnderworld hamburger with his grandparents and nephew to make sure Belle knew Rumple was having a very bad day.

Speaking of dwarfs, is Dopey still a tree?

Yes--they mentioned being only six because Dopey was still a tree at the beginning of the episode.

[InsertWordHere]

I know the "I will always find you" is iconic Snowing, but I was okay with Emma saying it because they've written that into her character from the very beginning. In the very first episode, she said," Finding people is what I do." Charming put her in the wardrobe and whispered, "Find us" and she did. It was always supposed to be a callback to her parents, every time they've alluded to this ability of Emma's. "If you love them and they love you, they will always find you."

 

It's the Charming family motto.

Edited December 7, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[iMonrey]

I loved how characters like Hook can point out that Regina has killed countless people who will no doubt be glad to see her in the Underworld, and she simply hand-waves this fact with "I'm not that person anymore." Uh, Yeah you are. She's not literally another person, even if she feels guilty now and is trying to change her ways. Do you suppose Graham is in the Underworld, and will he finally be able to tell Emma that Regina killed him simply because she was jealous of her?

 

It's like the writers want to acknowledge that Regina has killed people just so we don't accuse them of whitewashing her past but then they think it doesn't matter anymore because she's "good" now. They want to have their cake and eat it too and it just doesn't work for me no matter how many times they try to "redeem" her.

 

It also bugs me how they constantly break their own rules and/or ignore precedent when it comes to all things magic. Every time someone has become a Dark One they rose from some black goo in the forest but Rumple gets all the Dark One power and nothing visibly happens to him while he's surrounded by witnesses. Convenient!

[Mari]

I know the "I will always find you" is iconic Snowing, but I was okay with Emma saying it because they've written that into her character from the very beginning. In the very first episode, she said," Finding people is what I do." Charming put her in the wardrobe and whispered, "Find us" and she did. It was always supposed to be a callback to her parents, every time they've alluded to this ability of Emma's. "If you love them and they love you, they will always find you."

 

It's the Charming family motto.

Yes.  This.  And, I guess for me it's different than the way they've tried to recreate Emma/Hook scenes with Robin/Regina, for a couple of reasons.

 

The "I will always find you." is family lore for the Charmings;  since before they've broken the curse, it's been drilled into Emma's head that not only is finding people what she does, it's what their family does when they love someone.

 

There are no family stories, or family heritage, of scenes like the bandaging with teeth.  That was just weird, lazy writing.  It was less motif, and more copying.

[FierceAfroChick]

It also bugs me how they constantly break their own rules and/or ignore precedent when it comes to all things magic. Every time someone has become a Dark One they rose from some black goo in the forest but Rumple gets all the Dark One power and nothing visibly happens to him while he's surrounded by witnesses. Convenient!

 

Oh yeah! Why wasn't he transported back to the goo factory?  I'm sure if they're asked, the writers will say it's because he's been a Dark One before...no need for orientation.

Yes.  This.  And, I guess for me it's different than the way they've tried to recreate Emma/Hook scenes with Robin/Regina, for a couple of reasons.

 

The "I will always find you." is family lore for the Charmings;  since before they've broken the curse, it's been drilled into Emma's head that not only is finding people what she does, it's what their family does when they love someone.

 

 

Yeah, this makes sense.  Snow did say this a few eps ago, that finding their loved ones is what the family does.  Maybe if Emma hadn't uttered those exact words, I'd be a little more okay with it. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Serena]

I think the thing that made me laugh the hardest was Emma stealing her parents line like Hook/Emma aren't about that life. The writers need to start creating lines for them instead of taking ideas Snow and Charming. 

They kind of are. They've been using that line for CS since 3B. She said "Hook found me" to, I think, her parents after she came back to Storybrooke.

 

Plus, "he/she found me" hasn't been a Snow and Charming thing since the Pilot. It was always a Charming family thing. Charming says to newborn Emma "Find us.". I'm sure there have been a couple of "Henry found me." from Emma. Snow said "You found us." in 201. Emma's job was to find people. I'm sure I'm forgetting some of them.

[kili]

Given that our three Storybrooke Dark Ones (Emma, Hook and Rumple) saw that collecting the Dark One energy in the sword and killing one of the Dark Ones was the only way to get rid of the darkness, what exactly was Merlin's plan?

 

Was Merlin always planning on having Emma hoover up all the Dark energy and then he would kill her? He talked about her great sacrifice.

 

Or was he planning on hoovering the energy and having Emma kill him (not much of a sacrifice for her)? Was he always a dead man walking?

 

And what was Arthur's job? Was it really just to pull the sword out of the stone? Did TreeMerlin chat up other children until one of them was finally successful? What was his great plan for Arthur afterwards? How did Arthur disappoint him? How does he fit in the de-darking scheme of thiings?

 

What was Merlin planning on doing with the sword before Nimue became a Dark One? Killing himself? Transfering his power into the apprentice? And why did he send the Neverengers in search of his psycho girlfriend? Was he trying to get them marked for death?

 

The resolution of this problem just creates more issues about Merlin. Is he really a good guy or just a guy who uses people to do what he could not? Or was their a solution that did not involve killing Emma or Hook?

[HoodlumSheep]

The Charmings are particularly good finders. I didn't mind the line, even if it was a little cheesy. I think CS are very much still their own thing.

So if they're going to the UW, then they're going for Hook's soul I take it? Otherwise i don't see why Emma couldn't have put half of her heart into Killian, unless people aren't allowed to have 1 and a half hearts (but can be fine with half a one). Or crush the heart that's in his body (hey, he's dead already) and then stick her half of heart in him,

What would retrieving a soul even mean/look like though? Hook's body is in Storybrooke so them bringing Hook back (unless he's just a ghost) could be weird. Or they'll forget that his body's back in Storybrooke.

I hope they run into Merlin down there and shake all the plot hole answers out of him, and the Apprentice too while they're at it.

And about that promo: so is 5b going to be the season of the reddish filter?

[InsertWordHere]

Hook still has the gaping wound on his neck, so how are they going to fix that? I don't think half a heart will do it. Are they going to say it can be healed now since Excalibur is no more?

[HoodlumSheep]

^ probably. Paging Doctor Whale! He could probably fix Killian's wound. And as repayment, Killian can help Whale find his brother, wrap up that storyline and we'll be one step closer to finishing this show (sorry, show, but you should think about wrapping a few things up soon!).

Edited December 7, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[FierceAfroChick]

I'm thinking if Killian is resurrected, then wounds he suffered when living will be no more.  And this is why I don't understand why they have to split a heart...if he's given life again, he won't need half her heart, his will start beating again.  It's not like it was ripped out of his chest and crushed...the ticker's still in there.

Edited December 7, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[pcta]

Well, haven't watched, skimmed the comments and I guess it is true - I'm out. Sigh.

[Curio]

Wow, I'm really slow. I literally just made the connection between Hook stabbing his father with a blade and killing him, and the parallel to Hook taking responsibility for his actions and begging to be stabbed with a blade so he can be killed and go to Hell. Once again, the every-action-has-an-equal-and-opposite-reaction karma bug hits Killian in full force. (Hopefully the karma bug finally hits Regina and Rumple in the Underworld.)

Edited December 7, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

Was anyone else expecting to see Hook's father as the Charon at the end?

[oliverwendell]

 

And this is why I don't understand why they have to split a heart...if he's given life again, he won't need half her heart, his will start beating again.  It's not like it was ripped out of his chest and crushed it...the ticker's still in there.

 

They need to split her heart because of the life-for-a-life thing. He can't return from the Underworld with his heart because someone else would have to stay. So Emma's found a loophole.

 

What I don't get is why Rumple is coming with them. I would have appreciated some explanation there. Does he have some nefarious plan? He's already been there and said it was awful, so why would he go back?

[HoodlumSheep]

I've seen tumblr posts that mention Killian tries to point at Rumple before he croaks (realizing he got screwed). It does look like it kinda in the gifs I'e seen. Rumple!!!!! *shakes fist*

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Once Upon A Time Shows Us All About Becoming Hook
Once Upon A Time's fall season ends with darkness of all kinds, and a curse even True Love's Kiss can't break.

[Mathius]

Didn't Emma spend most of Seasons 1-4 finding her self-worth before we got a full-on romance arc this year?

 

Yes, but don't expect pointing out facts (like Hook's story revolving as much around Emma and her pain as her story did around him and his pain) to quell the hilarious fauxminist rage that all the SQ shippers are expressing across the net.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Mathius

[watcher]

I always thought Rumple wanted to remove the darkness because it was killing him. His heart was a lump of coal.

I fully expected him to get it back as soon as he could.

[OnceUponAJen]

Was anyone else expecting to see Hook's father as the Charon at the end?

I started to get a suspicion when Brennan traded his sons into indentured servitude and left in a boat. Not long afterward they (Rumple?) referred to Charon coming to get them in his boat after everyone had been marked. I really started to wonder at that point.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I started to get a suspicion when Brennan traded his sons into indentured servitude and left in a boat. Not long afterward they (Rumple?) referred to Charon coming to get them in his boat after everyone had been marked. I really started to wonder at that point.

I didn't know Charon was pronounced like "Karen". When Rumple mentioned it, I was waiting for someone to say, "Wait... who's Karen?"

[Curio]

Was anyone else expecting to see Hook's father as the Charon at the end?

 

I'm fully expecting that to be a big reveal during the 100th episode.

[Helena Dax]

Heh,  I  knew Gold was going  to become  the DO  again, I called it some  episodes ago. It makes sense  because he  isn't that  interesting without his powers.  And I just loved that Belle came back to him; I've decided she's a comic relief or  something  like  that and we're supposed to laugh at her dumb decisions. 

 

People's  thinking Gold wants to  get Neal  back, but why  would Neal be in the Underworld? According to Gold, it's like Hell, not just the Afterlife and Neal doesn't deserve  to be tortured for all the eternity.  

 

I must say, I was laughing my ass off during the episode. It's weird, because I've loved Hook since his first scene and I ship H/E badly, but something about his flashback didn't work for me. And then, you  know, Emma was so  dumb when she gave the sword to "Henry"... And his death would've been more painful if we all didn't know it's only temporary.

 

I had zero  interest in Merida or Arthur, but unless they're back in the second half  of the season,  this lack of resolution is bad writing.  But I can't believe that's all we're going  to see about the Camelot plot. Merlin's  message about Nimue and Lancelot looking for her mum must have  some meaning. 

[legaleagle53]

I don't think that Rumple is actually being bribed by Emma - he is co-opting her plan. He's going to try to save Neal and I don't necessarily think he's going to use his own heart to do it (he'll probably do something gross like split Henry's heart). 

 

 He can't.  After Neverland, Regina put a protection spell on Henry's heart so that it could never be taken again, not even by Henry himself.  Rumple would just have to settle for splitting his own heart.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't think that Rumple is actually being bribed by Emma - he is co-opting her plan. He's going to try to save Neal and I don't necessarily think he's going to use his own heart to do it (he'll probably do something gross like split Henry's heart).

Replying in Speculation.

[Rumsy4]

I know the "I will always find you" is iconic Snowing, but I was okay with Emma saying it because they've written that into her character from the very beginning. In the very first episode, she said," Finding people is what I do." Charming put her in the wardrobe and whispered, "Find us" and she did. It was always supposed to be a callback to her parents, every time they've alluded to this ability of Emma's. "If you love them and they love you, they will always find you."

 

Good point. I thought it was a little odd at first, but it makes perfect sense. She is finally becoming hopeful and having faith in Love like her parents drilled into her and set an example. Her face at the very end was glowing with hope! It was beautiful. 

The resolution of this problem just creates more issues about Merlin. Is he really a good guy or just a guy who uses people to do what he could not? 

 

I don't even see the point of Merlin and his vague hints and useless voice mails. However, I did like his interactions with Emma, and how he sort of mentored her. So, there's that.

Wow, I'm really slow. I literally just made the connection between Hook stabbing his father with a blade and killing him, and the parallel to Hook taking responsibility for his actions and begging to be stabbed with a blade so he can be killed and go to Hell. Once again, the every-action-has-an-equal-and-opposite-reaction karma bug hits Killian in full force.

 

He even said he deserved to go to hell, which shows how he looked at himself. When he comes back from the dead, he would have completed his hero's journey and be "reborn" as a hero. 

[legaleagle53]

By the gathering of the dwarfs, I'm guessing that anyone who was not in the inner circle, and accompanied the gang to Camelot did not get their memories back? Leroy certainly had no idea Hook was a Dark One. 

 

That's a massive fail on the writing team's part. Shows how little everyone cares about those who aren't in the inner circle.

 

Not everyone knew in Camelot that Emma had turned Hook into a Dark One.  In fact, the only ones who really knew there were Emma, Hook, Merlin, and Rumple. Rumple was just able to play on Emma's paranoia and already-unstable emotional state enough to convince her that eventually everyone would find out before she could undo what she had done, so she panicked and decided to erase everyone's memories "just in case" in order to buy herself more time.

[FierceAfroChick]

I started to get a suspicion when Brennan traded his sons into indentured servitude and left in a boat. Not long afterward they (Rumple?) referred to Charon coming to get them in his boat after everyone had been marked. I really started to wonder at that point.

Ah...yes.  I guess they can't trade Rumpel's life for his, huh?

[KingOfHearts]

What's with the taverns on this show? They all look alike. Are there not any other places of business in the Enchanted Forest? Did Robin buy the tavern after Bard- I mean Papa Hook, died?

[Panopticon]

The Bad: This is the episode that finally broke me of enjoying Rumple. He is not interesting. He does not have any redeeming features. He is merely a plot device to leave the other characters stupid and impotent, forever spinning on a hamster wheel.

 

The So-so: Finally, a Little Killian flashback with the usual good casting. (But now I can't have all of my head-canon anymore...) 

 

The Good: I will forgive a lot since Emma dropped an "I will always find you." The Charming Family as a whole got shortchanged by this arc, but at least they still have that. (And I do consider it a Charming Family thing, not just a Snowing thing. Snowing started it but it has long since become a part of their legacy passed on through children and grandchild.) I wouldn't have stuck with the show through the atrociousness that was 4B if I didn't ship Hook/Emma so hard... and as a Hook/Emma shipper the "I will always find you" does more for me than a true love's kiss would. (Not objecting to a future TLK, though.)

[Mari]

What's with the taverns on this show? They all look alike.

Maybe they're part of a chain.  Chains tend to look alike.

[Eolivet]

Plus, "he/she found me" hasn't been a Snow and Charming thing since the Pilot.

 

I definitely disagree with that -- maybe it hasn't been a Snow/Charming thing in a while, but they had episodes upon episodes of them seeking and finding each other -- not only the Pilot, their whole "getting together" arc (when Snow drank the memory potion, etc.), when the dark curse broke, that was pretty much their first words to each other and then being sent to...wherever, where Snow split her heart and they found each other through flames.

 

This was definitely not a Pilot thing, but an iconic line that was used for maximum emotional effect for a couple. I think saying it was used for a family is reaching, because when I and I'm guessing many other casual viewers hear that line, we don't think "Oh, that's the Charming family," we think "That's the Snow/Charming line."

 

If it had been repurposed, I would've been fine with it -- the idea of "I will find you" or "You found me, now I promise I'll find you" or "I'll never stop looking for you -- I will find you." But lifting a line whole-cloth with so much emotional resonance for me was the writers trying to gild the emotional lily. Writers, have faith in your actors and in the relationship you've written, or I'm going to think you're either lazy or that you have no faith in your ability to write original content for your current couple, so you're siphoning off some failsafe emotional impact, just in case.

 

But I say this as one of the few remaining Snow/Charming fans out there: that line really irritated me.

[Shanna Marie]

My mind kept straying to this episode during yoga class this morning. This show seriously damages my calm.

 

Anyway ... I actually rather liked that Emma used the "I will always find you" mantra because, as others have said, it's become a family thing, not just a couple thing. Among other instances that have been listed, there was also the one early in 4A in which David reassured Elsa that they'd find Anna because that's what their family does.

 

I also didn't entirely mind Regina's role in talking Hook down, since she had info the others didn't have that she could use as ammo. However, that doesn't really hold up to much consideration (and thus the yoga class distraction) because it makes no sense the more you think about it (I need to make a keyboard shortcut for "makes no sense" for discussing this show). I know there was supposedly another scene shot that didn't make it into the episode, but from what we saw, Regina didn't actually have much extra info. All she should have known was that she sent Hook to kill his father, and he did it. She shouldn't have had any way of knowing what, exactly, it was that set him off. She shouldn't have known why the stuff about "the man you want to be" had enough emotional resonance with him that it could turn him back from the brink. I guess maybe it came up in the missing scene in which they made the deal never to speak of it again, but why that deal? Would Hook really have cared then who knew what he'd done? Or was this a pact made once they were in Storybrooke? In one of the post-episode interviews with Colin, it sounded like part of the pact was for her benefit, that she didn't want others knowing she'd made him kill his father (which would be entirely in character for her). Really, it all only makes any sense if there was an extra minute or so, in which she poofed into the scene and mocked him for his tears and revealed that she'd been watching the whole time. Of course, the scenario itself makes no sense at all. How did she find Papa Hook and know who he was? It's not like "Jones" is such a rare name that it's obvious that the guy named Jones working at the tavern down the road is related to the pirate named Jones who's from a completely different era. Or did Brennan talk a lot about his miraculous story, and that talk came back to Regina, and she put two and two together. It's not like this is a society with a lot of written records, so odds are slim that she could have looked up Hook's background and then found out what became of his father. She can't have Googled him or looked him up on Ancestry. Not to mention that it's hard to imagine that there was a tavern within any distance during that era that Hook wouldn't have already visited at least once.

 

And then there's the test itself -- what does Hook being willing to kill the father who horribly wronged him as a child have to do with his willingness or ability to kill a total stranger? Regina mentioned Cora's ability to manipulate (funny that she recognizes that without recognizing how that might have worked on a naive child) as a reason behind the test, but then that makes sense only if the entire scenario was a scam and manipulation -- pull at Hook's heartstrings with the little brother and his father seeming to change and see if that changes Hook's willingness to kill, and then "poof," it all dissolves in a cloud of red smoke with Regina standing there, saying he passed the test and mocking his tears and his anger.

 

I’m so confused about Emma’s plan to share a heart with Hook.  Instead of going the UW to get him, why not just go to the morgue and stick half your heart in his body?

I think that only worked with David because he died of having his heart ripped out and crushed. Putting a piece of heart in brought him back to life. But Hook died of so much more. He has a heart in his chest. It's just not working because of the fatal Excalibur wound on his neck and the stab through the gut, also from Excalibur. So it's going to take more than that to bring him back. I guess the heart splitting she referred to was having the same number of beating hearts coming back as they had going in. But I'm not sure how it's all going to work since his body was so badly damaged. In the spoiler thread, we'd been spitballing on how the trip to the Underworld to get him would work without undermining every other death on the show, and we came up with stuff about him being physically dragged there, or him disappearing, so there's no body (like when Rumple sacrificed himself to kill Pan). But we saw the body being hauled away on a gurney in a very mundane way. So is he going to be physically resurrected, in a new body not riddled with Excalibur wounds (and maybe with two hands?), or are they going to do something that will simultaneously heal those unhealable wounds and put his soul back in his body?

[ABitOFluff]

I didn't know Charon was pronounced like "Karen". When Rumple mentioned it, I was waiting for someone to say, "Wait... who's Karen?"

Ha, that's my name so I did a little double take. I kind of like it.

[StaceyNotStacie]

This episode wasn't bad, but it should have been two hours.  It flew by and it seemed like a lot was missing.  I don't check a lot of spoilers, so I was surprised about Rumple becoming the Dark One again. 

 

I'm guessing that so many people went to the Underworld with Emma so that they don't have to go back and forth between Storybrooke and the Underworld during episodes.  They can stick to one location (Underworld) and then use flashbacks, etc. for the rest of the story.

[MedievalGirl]

Oh, if only the ring Killian gave Emma had been a Claddagh. 

[myril]

What's with the taverns on this show? They all look alike. Are there not any other places of business in the Enchanted Forest? Did Robin buy the tavern after Bard- I mean Papa Hook, died?

 

It's a franchise. called "Old Tavern in Magic Worlds", also called by some McDuck, referring to the franchisor, the McDuck Clan.

Guess, if I'd watched this episode with audience in a movie theater, the usher would politely have asked me to leave at some point, for the sake of avoiding a riot. Oh gosh, was this bad. I had laughing fits over most of the time and particular in the tense and dramatic moments. Or, I guess they were meant as dramatic moments, like Hook turning from darkly determined to determined to die as hero in the blink of any eye. Sorry, just couldn't feel the emotions there. Fantastical plotsyncracy. The contrivance fairy was busy.

Probably didn't help, that I had done a Star Wars binge watch over the weekend. They can compete in cheesy bad dialogue, things making little sense, but reaching for big wannabe epic heroic drama. At least Star Wars was sexy action and CGI orgy though.

Edited December 7, 2015 by myril

[KingOfHearts]

This episode was more of its own story than a conclusion of 5A or an introduction to 5B. 5x08, 5x10 and 5x11 was a mini-arc about Dark Hook, and that was definitely what the focus was on. Operation #SaveHook is really the only direct connection to what's coming up. Hook's dad is a possibility, but the flashbacks didn't do a good job of implying that imo. If he turned out to be the Charon, that would have made it more relevant. But for the most part, 5x11 was stuck in its own little world. It's caught in the middle between 5A and 5B without actually linking them very well.

Edited December 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Zuleikha]

Yes, but don't expect pointing out facts (like Hook's story revolving as much around Emma and her pain as her story did around him and his pain) to quell the hilarious fauxminist rage that all the SQ shippers are expressing across the net.

 

It's not hilarious fauminist rage, and it's not just SQ shippers. I LIKE Hook/Emma; Captain Swan is my primary canon ship. However, the first two episodes set up this arc as being about Emma's relationships with the entire cast, with a focus on her parents and Regina (as the ones who failed her in Camelot). Instead, it all boiled down to Hook/Emma's relationship. That's a huge shift from what the show has been and what the arc seemed to be about, and to me, it is kind of icky. It also ended with Emma's embrace of love making her a morally worse person in Camelot (disregarding Hook's free will and right to make decisions about his life and death to force him into the Dark One role), which is a crappy message that IMHO, was not effectively countered at all in the Storybrooke side of things. 

 

To me, it feels like the writers are overstuffing the arcs to compensate for their ability to write coherent character development or organically build plot twists. I feel starting with 4A, the fundamental ideas were sound but the execution was just horrific. In outline form, 5A has a neat structure of love (both family and romantic) being everyone's undoing in Camelot to become everyone's savior in Storybrooke. That's a powerful theme with Rumple--as always--moving in reverse. But in the details, it was just a garbled mess with dangling plot threads, pointless characters, and twists that make no sense.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Zuleikha

[tennisgurl]

I want to know more about the land Hook comes from. A land where they apparently are kind of Regency Englandish, but also have magic boats and use the Sleeping Curse (which is supposedly super rare in the EF) as a prison sentence. What is this place? And how do people from their keep ending up in the Enchanted Forest? 

 

 

It's a franchise. called "Old Tavern in Magic Worlds", also called by some McDuck, referring to the franchisor, the McDuck Clan.

This would actually make a ton more sense than the idea that, in this entire magical world, there is only one possible design out there for bars.