All Episodes Talk: Celebrating Diversity

[Bastet]

Well, I wouldn't wish Megan on anyone, either.

I'm not sure I can picture any of them as good romantic partners, really.  I love Cristina, but she has a long way to go as a fianceé and I'm not really sure she'll get there.  I also love Rachel, but when it comes to potential dating we saw she needs to learn to slow her roll.  She's probably the one I can most see "getting it" at some point and truly understanding how to be part of a romantic relationship.

John seems to have no interest in it.  I can't remember if Elena has ever expressed an interest, but she's really just starting to deal with her own issues, so she's a ways off from being ready to date seriously. 

[ClareWalks]

34 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Sean likes every woman who crosses his path.  How many has he declared to be his future wife?  The two Megans - "our" Megan and Meghan Trainor - at least.  I wouldn't wish Sean on anyone.

Agree. Plus I remember when he so cruelly rejected Rachel (season 1 maybe?) and I just think he's a real douche.

[Former Nun]

2 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

I remember when he so cruelly rejected Rachel (season 1 maybe?) and I just think he's a real douche.

And this is the heartbreak of raising an intellectually disabled child--families' lifelong hearbreak.  He'd be "a real douche" if he had an average IQ but he doesn't.  He's just a young man who receives and sends mixed and sometimes very wrong messages.

I don't know why, but reading "douche" actually hurt my feelings and I am NOT a Sean fan.  He can't help himself and I hope he doesn't get himself into trouble where he's hurt physically.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Former Nun
Changed "parents'" to "families" because often the children outlive their parents and other relatives must step in.

[LunaMia]

I really love Elena's sense of humor. The way she was "flirting" with the desserts at the start of the episode had me laughing. Then when she gave the man his coffee and called him hot wheels, it cracked me up. Since it seemed to be some kind of hot wheels convention, I didn't take it as some skeevy sexual harassment. 

I wonder if the other girls feel somewhat jealous of all the attention Megan gets. When Steven was bringing Megan a blanket and Elena was like, what about me!? Or at the dance and the guys wanting to dance with Megan. I would think jealousy is still an issue and would be difficult to navigate. That's why I was happy for Rachel when she was asked to the dance. Not so much to validate her womanhood, but to show that she is worthy of attention and she is a beautiful woman inside and out.

I'm sure it's a lot easier for Rocco's parents to get their way via the school district. It looks like they live in Santa Monica, a very pricey area with good schools. I'm sure those in Inglewood or East L.A wouldn't have the same options. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by LunaMia

[Cherrio]

52 minutes ago, LunaMia said:

I'm sure it's a lot easier for Rocco's parents to get their way via the school district. It looks like they live in Santa Monica, a very pricey area with good schools. I'm sure those in Inglewood or East L.A wouldn't have the same options. 

They live in Orange County.  Far from Santa Monica.      

[Cherrio]

1 hour ago, Former Nun said:

He can't help himself

I actually think he could learn acceptable behavior with classes and a good mentor.   His parents would need the same, if not more training, because they giggle and think what he says and does is cute.  Its not and I feel bad for Sean.   

I think it would be tough going for awhile because he has also been raised to act like a spoiled brat at times too.  But, away from his parents, I actually think he would be so much better.

[LunaMia]

6 minutes ago, Cherrio said:

They live in Orange County.  Far from Santa Monica.      

I know where Orange County is, it looked similar to Santa Monica from the outside shots. 

Yes, google says they live in Laguna Beach. I'm sure they have great resources in their district. 

[camom]

Yes, where you live makes a big difference in what services are offered.  Money talks, unfortunately.  I did feel sorry for Rocco's mom when she was reading the report.  No matter how much you accept your child's limitations, having his deficits listed can be really, really hard.  IEPs are pretty emotional.

I don't think any of these young adults are ready for a serious romantic relationship.  Steven might be able to handle it if it was with someone more laid back than Megan.  I would love for Rachel to get a boyfriend, just to go on dates with, nothing serious.

My opinion -- Megan is a hussy.

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Former Nun said:

And this is the heartbreak of raising an intellectually disabled child--families' lifelong hearbreak.  He'd be "a real douche" if he had an average IQ but he doesn't.

So all of his negative qualities are because of his disability?  He, and the rest, can't just, like everyone else, have ways in which they're assholes?  Because that's one of the things I like about this show -- they're not edited to look like saints because they have a disability (which is so common, and, of course, totally unrealistic - and patronizing), but are instead shown to have good and bad qualities, like everyone does.  And everyone's bad qualities are a mix - inherent, cultivated by family, socialized by environment, etc.  Add in "typical of those with Down Syndrome" for these particular people.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Bastet

[princelina]

On 6/28/2017 at 9:28 PM, JocelynCavanaugh said:

Basically, the people who "benefit" are "nobody in the actual classroom." The parents get pacified, the community gets warm fuzzies, and the school district gets to boast, but nobody in the class is getting to do their best or learn at the level they really need. The lady Rocco's mom was talking to (I already forgot who she was) claimed that all studies support inclusion, but I just can't believe that. Many of the young adults on this show can't count money or do other basic life skills. It might have been nice to let them focus on those things in school instead of pretending they were cheerleaders. 

I believe she actually said some kind of double negative, unprovable thing - like no studies have proven that inclusion isn't the worst, or doesn't work best, or something like that.  I was listening closely, because for me, I have enough anecdotal and personal experience evidence against inclusion until someone has a REALLY convincing study to change my mind.

On 6/28/2017 at 9:45 PM, Bastet said:

It sounds like they ended up with a situation where he'd be in special ed classes for some things and in "regular" class for others, which seems logical to me given his age and how he scored on those behavioral skills tests.  But there was reference to advocating for "full inclusion" or something like that, and I am confused as to how that could be a good thing for anyone.  How on earth would that work at school, especially as the kids get older?  At some point, the student with DS cannot possibly keep up, so what happens -- you either make them feel alien and left out, because the spend the whole school day with people who are engaged in lessons they can't grasp, or you deny reality and pretend like they're just the same as their peers? 

And what of those peers, who deserve to have the little bit of attention already allotted to them given the student/teacher ratio in most schools, not have one special-needs student suck up more than a proportional share of the teacher's time?  I just don't understand how that would work, so I'd love to hear from those with experience, because a combination of special ed and regular classes sounds like the only way to go, for the benefit of all involved, but I may very well be missing something.  (I have a colleague who practices disability rights law, but we've never discussed the education rights issue; she generally deals with adults.)

Actually, you are expected to do both!  At the same time!  Pretend they are just like everyone else (until they do something egregious - then exceptions must be made!). Furthermore, since they have no social/intellectual peers, they spend the day (if they are lucky) with kind classmates like Sean's friend Sean, or (if they are less lucky) being ignored by kids who have better things to do.  As for the other kids in the class, as a teacher you teach to the middle, try to offer something for the kids who are advanced, and then work with the aide to come up with something for the Roccos/Seans/Megans to do to keep them busy and not completely waste their time.

 

On 6/28/2017 at 10:39 PM, camom said:

I agree that, in most cases, a combination of regular classroom and special ed is best, but every Down syndrome organization makes parents feel like they are failing their kids if they don't push for full inclusion.  Often there is an aide just for that child, the curriculum is adjusted, etc.  Basically, they are sitting in the same room but aren't necessarily a part of the class.  It really only works well with the highest functioning children.  I had a choice of having my daughter in a regular classroom -- 30 kids with 1 teacher -- or a special ed classroom -- 12 kids with 2 teachers.  I picked special ed and I'm glad I did.  She was mainstreamed for non-academic times, but got her education in special ed.  It paid off and she did very well.

That's so great for your daughter! I know I come of as bitchy about inclusion, but of course everyone's situation is different.  And you are right about everything else.  The other thing I'd like to point out is that since most schools are afraid of lawsuits, the administrators (principals, guidance counselors, etc.) also feel the need to act like they are for full inclusion even when they know better.  We have seen in this program that people like Sean and Megan, who we have been told were fully included, seem to be the least well-educated of the group.  Since the program is built around a social group of kids with DS, what we do not see is the fact that they have no socialization with real peers.  That of course depends upon the school, because some school districts have lots of kids with disabilities and others do not, but as a rule they are treated kindly by the other students in a "patted on the head" manner, and then left sitting with their aides or disability group while the other students are off having fun.

 

On 6/29/2017 at 0:19 AM, anonymousgirl said:

As a person in a wheelchair with a learning disability I had both 'normal' classes and special ed. I never minded. Heck, if my kid ever needed special ed I wouldn't mind either, nothing wrong with learning at a different pace.

You are right, but there do have to be some parameters for it to work.  Neither a wheelchair nor a learning disability impedes social interaction the way other disabilities can.  And I'm not just talking about DS or mental retardation- we had a deaf girl in my middle school for three years. She was a pretty girl who didn't appear to be different in any way, but she was accompanied at all times by an adult interpreter, which affected how she was treated - 8th grade girls who want to gather together and giggle about things like the boy they kissed or the other questionable things they did don't want to do it with a girl who has an adult anchored to her side!

 

16 hours ago, Normades said:

I have no experience with the inclusion of special needs children in school, so I find this very interesting.  It seemed that Rocco's mother was more concerned about inclusion than she was about Rocco's education.  I see benefits on both sides of having some inclusion, but it seems that there needs to be appropriate education so that each child can learn to the best of their ability.  I can't remember if it was on the show or on this board but I remember someone saying that there was a classroom situation with a DS child where the other children in the class would hurry to finish their own work so that they could help the DS child.  That's very sweet on the surface, but  hurrying through studies isn't helpful to students trying to learn and is a distraction.  Inclusion during some classes is good to foster acceptance and empathy, but I think it's important to see that the educational needs are being met for all the students.  

This is generally true up to about 3rd grade - after that it is being kind and patting the DS kid on the head before they go off on their business.  If you talk to teachers who (honestly) think inclusion is wonderful, you will find that they are primary grade teachers (K-3).  If you talk to teachers of older grades who claim it is "wonderful" - they are being PC and don't really believe it :). At least that has been my experience.

15 hours ago, gunderda said:

All of these 'kids' seem to have no boundaries with telling other people how cute or hot they are.  I don't even remember being that way as a teenager!

 

12 hours ago, booboopbedoo said:

Meagan is playing Sean to make Steven jealous. She is very sneaky.

 

6 hours ago, Former Nun said:

I agree, but Steven will have difficulty because of his "Mosaic" DS which will allow him a higher IQ and the ability to reason better (in most cases).  Also, Megan isn't half as cute as when her mother or make-up people help her.  I doubt if she can put herself together as well as we see her on the show.  Sean likes her...no matter what.

 

6 hours ago, camom said:

True, but even if they were boyfriend/girlfriend, I doubt he would quit flirting with other women.  That could cause all kinds of trouble.

 

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

Sean likes every woman who crosses his path.  How many has he declared to be his future wife?  The two Megans - "our" Megan and Meghan Trainor - at least.  I wouldn't wish Sean on anyone.

 

5 hours ago, anonymousgirl said:

Megan is the same way with Tyler Perry, how she had a crush on him and he married or had a baby with his gf she cried  and ate ice cream she also in her older twitter accounts she use to refer to herself as Tyler Perry's wife.

 

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

I'm not sure I can picture any of them as good romantic partners, really.  I love Cristina, but she has a long way to go as a fianceé and I'm not really sure she'll get there.  I also love Rachel, but when it comes to potential dating we saw she needs to learn to slow her roll.  She's probably the one I can most see "getting it" at some point and truly understanding how to be part of a romantic relationship.

John seems to have no interest in it.  I can't remember if Elena has ever expressed an interest, but she's really just starting to deal with her own issues, so she's a ways off from being ready to date seriously. 

 

3 hours ago, Former Nun said:

And this is the heartbreak of raising an intellectually disabled child--families' lifelong hearbreak.  He'd be "a real douche" if he had an average IQ but he doesn't.  He's just a young man who receives and sends mixed and sometimes very wrong messages.

 

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

So all of his negative qualities are because of his disability?  He, and the rest, can't just, like everyone else, have ways in which they're assholes?  Because that's one of the things I like about this show -- they're not edited to look like saints because they have a disability (which is so common, and, of course, totally unrealistic - and patronizing), but are instead shown to have good and bad qualities, like everyone does.  And everyone's bad qualities are a mix - inherent, cultivated by family, socialized by environment, etc.  Add in "typical of those with Down Syndrome" for these particular people.

I couldn't stop hitting the quote button as I read all of these posts - sorry :). The fact is that none of them can be romantic partners in the way that we think of romantic partners.  There are parameters of "normal" for everything we do, and they don't fall within them. so we can't judge their behaviors/attitudes/etc. according to our own.

For example - Christina and Angel are sweet and loving to each other, but they are still not the norm.  Christina seems scared of sex, while Angel says he wants it - but we do not know what Angel is picturing in his mind or what he means by that.  We can think we do based on what WE think, but he may have a completely different mental picture than those of us who are adults who have had sex.  Or than those of us who were once virgins but actually understood what sex is :)

We heard from Steven that he "wasn't interested in marriage - just sex" - and have seen how he reacted when it was offered to him on a platter.  And even that was more figurative than literal, considering that Kris would be around to make sure it didn't happen :). But my point is that what he said he wanted wasn't the true thing.  What he wanted was to date the hottest girl in school (his parents even said it) - and in this group, that was Megan.  

What does Megan want?  She's the hardest one to read, because I think that Kris has taught her what is important to her (being a cheerleader, having a boyfriend), to over-dramatize relationships ("Have you told Brendan you want to get married by the lake?"  "I know Steven has broken your heart"), to believe she's able to do things she isn't ("I don't limit myself", "I have a business", "I'm in college") - and these are just the things we have seen, and I don't think I'm the only one here who gets what's going wrong with these scenarios.  I do feel for Kris; I get that all of the other parents have been and stayed coupled while she was young and abandoned with a young DS baby, but I also see how that difference is made apparent in the young adults they have today.  In addition to movies and TV, Megan has been raised by a young, hot single mom while the others have been raised by committed married couples, and IMO a lot of what we are NOT seeing now went into raising Megan.  I notice that the others confidently state that sex is for "when you are married" - and I assume that they learned that from their parents, who (rightly or wrongly) assumed that if they taught them that then they wouldn't have to worry about it unless /until their kids actually found someone to marry.  Whereas Kris talks about "when Megan becomes sexually active" - more in the manner it's discussed on this board - as if it's a given for all of them, because they're adults in their 20s.  Which brings me back to my original point - that's how normal adults in their 20s act, and we seem to often discuss them in that way, but they are not normal twenty-something adults.  I don't mean it in a mean way, just stating a fact.

Which leads me to poor old Sean - my heart kind of breaks for him when I read this board.  He has been trained to understand that a "ladies man" who wiggles his eyebrows a lot is a hoot - that right there is what he knows.  All he sees - from parents, friends and strangers - is that this behavior earns him giggles and coos.  And I agree that his parents are the worst offenders!  (But Christina called the ranch hands hotties; Elena says the same to the workers in the fish store.  They all do this to some degree and they all get the same reaction:  a "thank you" with an "aren't you cute" overtone.). IMO Sean can't be judged according to our "normal" standards - this poor guy is not a potential rapist!  When he and Steven moved in together they discussed having girls over - his #1 rule was "no nudity in the house"!  He didn't even realize that Megan was the hottie in the group until Steven's relationship with her clued him in.  When we have seen him interact with girls on a "ladies man" level he is shown doing what?  Holding doors, saving seats, offering roses - he's as innocent as the rest of them.

Sorry for the long post - rant over :)

[ClareWalks]

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

So all of his negative qualities are because of his disability?  He, and the rest, can't just, like everyone else, have ways in which they're assholes?  Because that's one of the things I like about this show -- they're not edited to look like saints because they have a disability (which is so common, and, of course, totally unrealistic - and patronizing), but are instead shown to have good and bad qualities, like everyone does. 

Thank you! That is what I was getting at, with my apparently-controversial "douche" comment. There are some posters here who cannot stand the idea that some of us might not like some of the characters on this reality show (sure, they're real people, but it's a reality show, the editing is designed to project a character). For the most part, I like these people, even Sean, but he can be a douche. Everybody can, but most people's douchiest moments and qualities aren't cut together for 45 minutes of television every week. If you want to rally against someone for that, @Former Nun, it should be the show's producers.

[Eureka]

11 hours ago, LunaMia said:

I really love Elena's sense of humor. The way she was "flirting" with the desserts at the start of the episode had me laughing. Then when she gave the man his coffee and called him hot wheels, it cracked me up. Since it seemed to be some kind of hot wheels convention, I didn't take it as some skeevy sexual harassment. 

Me too. I forget what it was now but she made another pun in the episode that had me laughing and also thinking wow, didn't realize she got those nuances of language.

[Normades]

4 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

10 hours ago, Bastet said:

So all of his negative qualities are because of his disability?  He, and the rest, can't just, like everyone else, have ways in which they're assholes?  Because that's one of the things I like about this show -- they're not edited to look like saints because they have a disability (which is so common, and, of course, totally unrealistic - and patronizing), but are instead shown to have good and bad qualities, like everyone does. 

Thank you! That is what I was getting at, with my apparently-controversial "douche" comment. There are some posters here who cannot stand the idea that some of us might not like some of the characters on this reality show (sure, they're real people, but it's a reality show, the editing is designed to project a character). For the most part, I like these people, even Sean, but he can be a douche. Everybody can, but most people's douchiest moments and qualities aren't cut together for 45 minutes of television every week. If you want to rally against someone for that, @Former Nun, it should be the show's producers.

I don’t think there’s any problem with not liking someone, but it seems to me that when judging someone with DS different standards must be used and more information needs to be taken into account.  I know that everyone will not agree, but I think it’s unfair to call them names without accounting for the fact that, for instance, Sean has been raised to think what he is doing is not only acceptable, but cute and entertaining.  He will not be able to expand his social group and pick up on cues that his flirting sometimes crosses a line in typical society.  Megan thinks that acting like she is in a romantic movie and playing two guys off of each other is okay.  They both have complex physical feelings and needs, but don’t know how to express or understand them emotionally.  Calling someone names who is at a disadvantage to understand is wrong to me.  If someone has a physical disability and cannot run as fast as I can, should I judge them to be lazy because of it?  I don’t think we all can be measured with the same yardstick, so if that’s patronizing so be it.  Anyone can have negative qualities, but the disability should (in my opinion) be taken into account.

[anonymousgirl]

9 hours ago, princelina said:

You are right, but there do have to be some parameters for it to work.  Neither a wheelchair nor a learning disability impedes social interaction the way other disabilities can.  And I'm not just talking about DS or mental retardation- we had a deaf girl in my middle school for three years. She was a pretty girl who didn't appear to be different in any way, but she was accompanied at all times by an adult interpreter, which affected how she was treated - 8th grade girls who want to gather together and giggle about things like the boy they kissed or the other questionable things they did don't want to do it with a girl who has an adult anchored to her side!

 

I remember having in aid at schools we were together since 2nd grade.  I don't remember if that turned off others or not but most thought she was my mom. I remember we would eat lunch during HS in a classroom with a bunch of other aids and some children. It was interesting to hear them gab about their charge. I would also have PE  with the others with very severe disabilities and mentally handicapped children. Some of the kids were really sweet, This one girl I was very weary of though because she very baby like and would throw her tantrums and things randomly. They had their own classroom , but my school also had best buddies wheres some of the 'normal children' would sign up and kind of be friendly towards the other children with sever disabilities read to them etc. Some genuinely wanted to help.

I also remember  going to events with the other disabled children at different schools. I remember I didn't like it because I thought we were on display  because some of the "normal kids" would sign up and just watch us.

Speaking of social interaction my father has a tendency to want me to pair up with other disabled people thinking we could just get along just because of our disability. It's slightly annoying and when I started to  have an interest in other guys he thought they'd be disabled too. I love him, but he is so backwards sometimes 

Edited June 30, 2017 by anonymousgirl

[ClareWalks]

20 minutes ago, Normades said:

I don’t think there’s any problem with not liking someone, but it seems to me that when judging someone with DS different standards must be used and more information needs to be taken into account.  I know that everyone will not agree, but I think it’s unfair to call them names without accounting for the fact that, for instance, Sean has been raised to think what he is doing is not only acceptable, but cute and entertaining.  He will not be able to expand his social group and pick up on cues that his flirting sometimes crosses a line in typical society.  Megan thinks that acting like she is in a romantic movie and playing two guys off of each other is okay.  They both have complex physical feelings and needs, but don’t know how to express or understand them emotionally.  Calling someone names who is at a disadvantage to understand is wrong to me.  If someone has a physical disability and cannot run as fast as I can, should I judge them to be lazy because of it?  I don’t think we all can be measured with the same yardstick, so if that’s patronizing so be it.  Anyone can have negative qualities, but the disability should (in my opinion) be taken into account.

The problem is that I have written in the past that Sean's parents have done him no favors, and been scolded for that, too. It is very difficult to discuss a show when any negative feedback is met with "don't judge! Stop being mean!"

[Normades]

4 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

The problem is that I have written in the past that Sean's parents have done him no favors, and been scolded for that, too. It is very difficult to discuss a show when any negative feedback is met with "don't judge! Stop being mean!"

I don't think I ever said "don't judge! Stop being mean!"  My point was that it is my opinion that when judging you should be fair to the object of judgement.  Everyone is free to have their own opinion and state it.  I have shared that I grew up with a sibling with DS and faced lots of harsh judgment and cruelty.  That is why I try to encourage others to empathize with these individuals and their families.  Judging and name calling is easy, understanding is much more difficult.  My heart would (and has) be broken if my sister were called a douche, creepy, a hussy for behavior she really could not control or understand, but I would not encourage her to be on a show like this for those reasons, so it is a dilemma. 

I think the point of this forum is to state opinions and get feedback.  We aren't all going to agree and have the same outlook, which is what I enjoy (sometimes) on the forum.  If you want everyone to agree with you, I'm not sure what to tell you.  Personally I would find constant agreement boring. Again, my opinion.

[ClareWalks]

1 hour ago, Normades said:

If you want everyone to agree with you, I'm not sure what to tell you.  Personally I would find constant agreement boring.

This is exactly my point. This, exactly. I am being reprimanded all the time in this thread (although never in other show forums) for expressing my opinion. Not disagreement, reprimand. I see a lot of other posters being reprimanded too. It is probably turning off a lot of people from commenting on this show. 

[Cherrio]

9 hours ago, princelina said:

He didn't even realize that Megan was the hottie in the group until Steven's relationship with her clued him in.  When we have seen him interact with girls on a "ladies man" level he is shown doing what?  Holding doors, saving seats, offering roses - he's as innocent as the rest of them.

I think your post was great. I really got what you were saying.

I just wanted to clarify that Sean did hit (and hit and hit) on Megan on another season. She told him in one of the talking head segments that he needed to stop, she had a boyfriend and didn't like his advances. The parting shot was showing Sean (imo) being very upset and not liking what she said. At the time I had a feeling he had a meltdown or tantrum they did not show.  He constantly talks back to his parents, actually everyone and makes it clear he will do as he pleases.

            He also was being extremely inappropriate with his best friends finance and when told to stop, he stormed out of the restaurant and called his mother.

            He also went trolling for girls at a D.S. event at a resort and within a few minutes of meeting one, he kissed her.

With that said, I do agree he is innocent in that imo his parents are to blame. He is only doing what he thinks is ok, what as we have all seen is giggled at and endorsed.   I just hope he is taught and learns that it needs to stop before he gets in some real trouble.  That would be a tragedy. 

[ClareWalks]

4 minutes ago, Cherrio said:

I just hope he is taught and learns that it needs to stop before he gets in some real trouble.  That would be a tragedy. 

Yep, all it will take is one possibly drunk alpha male type who doesn't like the way Sean talks to his girlfriend, and he might find himself knocked out cold. I really hope that does not happen, since I don't think Sean deserves that (few people do), but that is a definite possibility at some point.

[camom]

Unfortunately, Sean's parents are of the opinion that the world should mold itself to Sean (I've known a few parents of special needs kids like that).  I think Kris may fall into that category as well.  

[auntjess]

4 hours ago, Eureka said:

Me too. I forget what it was now but she made another pun in the episode that had me laughing and also thinking wow, didn't realize she got those nuances of language.

I think that Elena may be the highest functioning person in this group.  Her biggest problems seemed to be emotional, and they seem to be under control this season.

[Cherrio]

16 minutes ago, auntjess said:

I think that Elena may be the highest functioning person in this group.  Her biggest problems seemed to be emotional, and they seem to be under control this season.

I have always thought the same about Elena.  I also think she has a lot of insight and has honestly expressed disapointment, heartbreak and her frustrations.

I also think her mom has been the most honest parent which is what the show is supposed to be about.

[ClareWalks]

2 minutes ago, Cherrio said:

I have always thought the same about Elena.  I also think she has a lot of insight and has honestly expressed disapointment, heartbreak and her frustrations.

I also think her mom has been the most honest parent which is what the show is supposed to be about.

Yes, I like Elena's mom. She isn't perfect all the time but you can see the love there, and it seems like she really does guide Elena in the right directions (like with the medications for her non-DS mental health issues, which have made Elena so much happier).

[HahYallDoin]

On 6/9/2017 at 3:11 PM, ChaChaSlide said:

Probably not. My dad is similar to John's dad,not very emotional as a dad, serious about bringing home the bacon, step in as disciplinarian when needed but no real quality time spent as a father. Before my mom died they'd been married just short of 30 years. My siblings and I are all neurotypical and of average intelligence and health, but let me tell you I don't know him at all as a person nor does he know me or any of my siblings. What little we all know about him we learned from our mom, and vice versa for him about us; she was the tie that bonded all of us. She was his wife and our mom, the roles were very distinct and did not intersect, if that makes sense.

 Like John, as adults we're trying to foster some kind of bond with our dad, and he has come leaps and bounds, but it will never be a fully fleshed out bond like what we had with our mother, because we just co-existed all of those formative years. I too would be shocked if my dad knew what activity I enjoyed, let alone showed up and did something with me. Not a bad father by any means, just not the modern day demonstratively emotionally bonded dad. Showed love by keeping everyone fed, clothed, housed and safe.

I can easily imagine John Sr. fitting the description. 

He mentioned being from Jackson, MS,  was born in 1939 and declared that his family was the poorest of the poor. My mom and Dad were both from Jackson as well and my mom, coincidentally, was born in 1939. They are white with my mom's family being upper middle class and my dad's family not well off at all. Farmers but not destitute. Jackson was a hotbed of racial tension and not an easy upbringing for John Sr. at all, no doubt. He would have had to work crappy jobs to help the family pay the bills and live his early life surrounded by the cruel actions of the KKK and ignorant whites. 

I get the feeling from John Sr. that he did whatever was necessary to build a better life for him and his family. No doubt he worked long, exhausting days to give them what he didn't have earlier in life. I imagine that Joyce, like many women of her era, was appreciative of his work ethic and didn't ask too much of him at home or with the kids as a result. Even though she may have worked outside of the home herself. So John Sr. might have vegged out in front of the TV watching sports(his admitted favorite past time)or playing dominoes, card games, etc. with his buddies and not spending much one on one with John Jr. Especially since he may have felt, admittedly or not, that their relationship couldn't be a traditional father/son one because of the DS. Add in his mom's encouragement to sing, dance, whatever he wanted and they clearly have a closer bond. 

John Sr. was very blunt and old school when he declared that they were told Jr. would have DS and they thought about abortion for a quick moment and then said 'no, we will take what God sends us.' This is very typical of many older folks in the South...they don't sugar coat real life decisions and issues with their immediate families. They tell it like it is. This statement of Sr's took my 14 year old daughter aback but I shared with her my feelings on why he said it like that in the same way I mentioned above. After she thought about it in terms of my mom or her great aunts and uncles, she saw it differently. 

Guess what I'm trying to communicate is that I agree with posters who don't get the deadbeat vibe from Sr. He is from a truly different generation and a uniquely southern and, unfortunately, segregated one at that. I am so proud that is now spending time sharing his feelings, activities of his youth(his high school club memories), pride in John Jr's job and singing pursuits and how Jr. has grown into more than Sr. ever imagined he would. 

Jr. was so pleased to have Sr. brag on him and I actually teared up when Jr. turned his head away from his dad in their TH and quietly said 'WOW!' That moment of pride will stay with him forever! 

[Former Nun]

10 hours ago, Cherrio said:

She told him in one of the talking head segments that he needed to stop, she had a boyfriend and didn't like his advances.

...and yet she can't understand Steven's not liking HER advances--she's not at fault, HE is.   This is going to be a problem with all of them; the world expects them to understand and react like most typicals.

I don't believe Sean's parents have fallen down in any way trying to raise him.  Sometimes stuff just does not go into the brain and stay there...or even go in at all.  Remember, there was some sort of hearing loss--serious enough for a cochlear implant; we don't know how long that went on.

[Bastet]

22 minutes ago, Former Nun said:

I don't believe Sean's parents have fallen down in any way trying to raise him.  Sometimes stuff just does not go into the brain and stay there...or even go in at all.

But when it comes to his inappropriate talk about/to women, "we've tried and it's just not sticking" is not what they describe, nor is the issue unaddressed in their interviews so that we don't know how they've dealt with the situation -- we have repeatedly seen them, in real time and in talking heads when they're alone and have had time to reflect, treat his inappropriate behavior as cute, laughing at and thus encouraging his "ladies' man" crap.  (And we've heard from the poster who knows these folks that, yep, that's what they do.)

There are a ton of areas in which I'll give these parents benefit of the doubt, because there's a lot we don't see, what we do see is edited, there is no one right way for most things, etc.  This doesn't qualify.  And every parent falls down in some ways; it's an inherent part of the job.  It doesn't make them bad parents or bad people, but it is what it is.  In this particular aspect, I think they have and are continuing to fail Sean, and the women he comes into contact with. 

[camom]

An interesting observation:  The two who, in my opinion, are the least independent and the least well-educated are Sean and Megan.  (I'm sure they went to good schools, but they lack some pretty basic skills.)  What they have in common is that they are both only children and they were fully included in school (no special ed classes).  Not sure what to make of it, but I find it interesting.

[sunsheyen]

On 6/30/2017 at 2:35 PM, auntjess said:

I think that Elena may be the highest functioning person in this group.  Her biggest problems seemed to be emotional, and they seem to be under control this season.

I think Elena is very high functioning and most of the issues we saw from her in the first two season are emotional, not necessarily cognitive. I think the therapy and meds have made a world of difference in her. I also think John is the next highest functioning (on a social/emotional level) which will make the transition to working/skills acquisition easier for them. They are a great duo/besties, IMO. I also think they seem to have been the least coddled based on the familial interactions we've seen. Elena because of her mother's shame about having a disabled child and John's family seems to talk to him as they would most typical siblings. They've had to function without the babying and (i realize there are different "levels" of DS) and it seems they are better off for it. Also ties into the following post:

14 hours ago, camom said:

An interesting observation:  The two who, in my opinion, are the least independent and the least well-educated are Sean and Megan.  (I'm sure they went to good schools, but they lack some pretty basic skills.)  What they have in common is that they are both only children and they were fully included in school (no special ed classes).  Not sure what to make of it, but I find it interesting.

These two seem to have been "mascotted" the most. Sean's parents and their inappropriate reactions/support of his behaviors (lashing out/attitude towards women) have made him be the little prince who we all just have to understand is who he is. "Oh, Sean acts angry when he's confused," No, he's not acting angry, he IS angry and yall have supported this for 20+ years. He was also a "star" a bit on his own by "dating" (how real was that?) the actress who played Becky Jackson on "Glee." They ate that shit up and fed it to Sean. Megan has been the specialest snowflake of them all (in her/mom's mind) with her being a cheerleader (did she have to do the tumbles and maintain a gpa like the rest of the girls?), "dating" Brendan (constantly supervised), "owning" a business, being an inspirational speaker (of words Kris wrote, that she just memorizes and mumbles out) and now a TV star. Being included and lauded for things they didn't even accomplish seems to have done them no favors. It might have felt good in their youth, but now that they are young adults, they're stuck when things don't go their way.

[camom]

I agree, sunsheyen.  Sean and Megan's parents wanted them to be poster children for DS and never allowed them to fail.

[TheVoicesToldMeTo]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 0:09 AM, camom said:

Yes, where you live makes a big difference in what services are offered.  Money talks, unfortunately.  I did feel sorry for Rocco's mom when she was reading the report.  No matter how much you accept your child's limitations, having his deficits listed can be really, really hard.  IEPs are pretty emotional.

I don't think any of these young adults are ready for a serious romantic relationship.  Steven might be able to handle it if it was with someone more laid back than Megan.  I would love for Rachel to get a boyfriend, just to go on dates with, nothing serious.

My opinion -- Megan is a hussy.

Why do they do the IEP's so early and not wait until the child is about to start grade school?  Rocco is 3 so still in preschool.  A lot can change in a couple/few years.

Why are the guys drooling over Megan?  Is it because she's the youngest or the most petite?  Fairly shy?  Or is this all scripted?  Does she have a patch of grey hair?  Looks that way through my TV screen

[Bastet]

1 minute ago, TheVoicesToldMeTo said:

Why are the guys drooling over Megan? 

She's cute, confident, and fairly outgoing, and she's also new -- the rest seem to have known each other or at least crossed paths as part of the Los Angeles DS community for a while, while she only came out here (from Colorado) for the show. 

[kira28]

Megan was super annoying. The previews with Sean's mom calling Chris saying they had to set up a date because Sean's smitten irritated me as well. Stop pushing your kid to date and work on his life skills and how he treats people.. You too Chris. Teach Megan not to be so obnoxious. I don't blame Steven for being annoyed. He's like a ten year old boy who wants to have fun and Megan is trying to be all flirty and seductive. Nice to see how touched John was by that horse. And how excited Rachel was to ride a horse. 

Could have done without the angel and Kristina drama. I used to root for them but I think Kristina is  too immature for him. The way she talked about how, hot his friend is then cried when he good naturedly called her out on it. 

[JocelynCavanaugh]

1 hour ago, TheVoicesToldMeTo said:

Why are the guys drooling over Megan?  Is it because she's the youngest or the most petite?  Fairly shy?  Or is this all scripted?  Does she have a patch of grey hair?  Looks that way through my TV screen

I don't think Megan is particularly cute compared to the other young women on the show. They're all fairly equivalent IMO. I noticed the patch of gray hair too. It reminds me of Stacy London's.

[ChaChaSlide]

On 7/3/2017 at 2:30 PM, TheVoicesToldMeTo said:

Why do they do the IEP's so early and not wait until the child is about to start grade school?  Rocco is 3 so still in preschool.  A lot can change in a couple/few years.

 

Rocco received his early childhood education services under an IFSP, an Individual Family Service Plan. This allows infants and toddlers with disabilities to receive some services such as OT, PT and other therapies to help in whatever the child's deficit area is; for younger infants home visits are usually where they receive therapy where older toddlers may go to a preschool center like Rocco's.  At age 3, the child receives an IEP, an Individualized Education Plan; the focus of intervention shifts from trying to correct general deficits that may impact the child's learning to providing specific interventions to bridge the gap in specific educational subjects.

 

As Rocco progresses through school, each year his IEP will be redone with goals for the next year, and every three years he will be completely reevaluated for special education services. IEPs are living documents, should he accomplish a goal or develops a new deficit before the year is up, the IEP can be changed to reflect new information via addendum. 

 

Both the IFSP and IEP  are part of the IDEA law, Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by ChaChaSlide

[camom]

Quote

Why do they do the IEP's so early and not wait until the child is about to start grade school?  Rocco is 3 so still in preschool.  A lot can change in a couple/few years.

In California, public schools take over when special needs kids turn 3.

[Eater of Worlds]

On 6/30/2017 at 11:40 PM, Former Nun said:

...and yet she can't understand Steven's not liking HER advances--she's not at fault, HE is.   This is going to be a problem with all of them; the world expects them to understand and react like most typicals.

I don't believe Sean's parents have fallen down in any way trying to raise him.  Sometimes stuff just does not go into the brain and stay there...or even go in at all.  Remember, there was some sort of hearing loss--serious enough for a cochlear implant; we don't know how long that went on.

Sean doesn't have a cochlear implant. He has a BAHA, a bone anchored hearing aid.  It transmits the sound waves through the bones instead of through the air the way traditional hearing aids do.  Everyone hears this way though they are not aware that they do it.  For whatever reason his type of hearing loss isn't helped by a cochlear implant (I'm also deaf and I'm not a candidate for a CI either).  A bone anchored hearing aid works better than a bone conducted hearing aid because the anchored connects directly to the bone.  You don't have to get through skin, fat and hair, and I think that having to just snap it on in the morning makes the care easier for Sean.                                                                  

[nlkm9]

11 hours ago, Eater of Worlds said:

Sean doesn't have a cochlear implant. He has a BAHA, a bone anchored hearing aid.  It transmits the sound waves through the bones instead of through the air the way traditional hearing aids do.  Everyone hears this way though they are not aware that they do it.  For whatever reason his type of hearing loss isn't helped by a cochlear implant (I'm also deaf and I'm not a candidate for a CI either).  A bone anchored hearing aid works better than a bone conducted hearing aid because the anchored connects directly to the bone.  You don't have to get through skin, fat and hair, and I think that having to just snap it on in the morning makes the care easier for Sean.                                                                  

 audiologist here--nice explanation:)

[snazzymacaronis]

Well here's some sad, but not surprising problems I found on Facebook: 

[Normades]

Wow @snazzymacaronis that's some sad stuff.  I really hurt for those kids.  It highlights how difficult it is for them to navigate relationships.  

It's hard to watch these people struggle to grasp even mundane things we take for granted, while being aware that they are indeed different.  I remember my mother remarking once that my sister didn't know that she was different and when people stared or were nasty she always thought they had something wrong with them.  My mother said it was a blessing that she really didn't understand.  When I see Steven and some of the people on this show, I realize how right she was.  And how right my sister was that something was indeed wrong with those jerks.

[Zanne]

On 6/29/2017 at 5:54 AM, Normades said:

I can't remember if it was on the show or on this board but I remember someone saying that there was a classroom situation with a DS child where the other children in the class would hurry to finish their own work so that they could help the DS child.  That's very sweet on the surface, but  hurrying through studies isn't helpful to students trying to learn and is a distraction.  Inclusion during some classes is good to foster acceptance and empathy, but I think it's important to see that the educational needs are being met for all the students.  

 

I'm an Education Specialist and have seen the "help" the other students give. What happens about 99% of the time is that the child thinks they are helping, but they are really just giving the other student the answers. They go in with the best of intentions, but they lack the ability and patience to truly teach the concept in a way that the student with special needs can grasp. The other students like to be seen as caring, compassionate helpers, but it doesn't really help the student with special needs as much as hoped. My school has a lot of good kids that are willing to hang out with my students who have more severe needs...for about five minutes. While they are socializing with the student with special needs, it means a lot of the socialization isn't age appropriate because they'll focus only on what the student's interests are. I do work at a middle school and kids that age are reluctant to give up all of their free time talking about boys to delve into the intricacies of My Little Pony. So while they'll give up some of their school time to hang out, it's not like they're asking the students over for slumber parties or to see a movie on a Saturday afternoon. As for an aide inhibiting socialization, it really depends on the aide. As a generalization from what I've observed over the years, older aides do tend to inhibit more than younger ones because the other students do see them as a "mom" figure. No matter the age, if the aide knows when to step back to allow the student their freedom while still keeping an eye on things, that's a good aide.  

[SnarkyMcSnarkerson]

On 6/21/2017 at 6:44 PM, Eureka said:

 

I can't delete the quote box, sorry about that :(

I finally watched the horse ranch episode, and was repeatedly struck by how far Elena has come. Her humor and intuition continue to surprise me; the rest of the gang are lucky they have her to talk things through with! Whatever meds her mom encouraged her to accept have clearly allowed her to work toward living up to her full potential. I just love seeing her progress this season!!

[anonymousgirl]

Quote

 

Next episode

Elena introduces John Tucker to her homeland; Hiromi hopes to convince Elena to stay; Cristina moves into her own apartment; Megan must choose between Sean and being without a boyfriend.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing Elena in her homeland her and John make cute friends I hope she does a live video. I'm tired of how they are portraying Megan next season they should focus on her friendships and buissness 

[Normades]

17 hours ago, anonymousgirl said:

Next episode

Elena introduces John Tucker to her homeland; Hiromi hopes to convince Elena to stay; Cristina moves into her own apartment; Megan must choose between Sean and being without a boyfriend.

I'm curious about how people with DS are treated in Japan. This is because Hiromi had such a difficult time accepting Elena and she talked about her culture putting emphasis on perfection.  Of course, that could just be her own issue, but I wonder if they have resources for people with DS and are accepting of them.  

[anonymousgirl]

It's not just  Hiromi it's the culture. While some things have improved in recent years maybe due to social pressure? , theres's still a major stigma attached to having disabilities, especially in other countries. You're considered a curse if you are disabled that a person must have done something wrong to deserve the disability or any type of mental illness.   There are separate schools and communities for the disabled, Beautiful life is good Japanese drama. it fictional but it shows a dis woman struggle in Japan of course it's not perfect but it does show her struggles. it only has 11 episodes

Edited July 11, 2017 by anonymousgirl

[anonymousgirl]

Also this article talks about a blog its about a Japanese mother who has a child with DS it gives some insight in her mind kind of harsh. http://en.rocketnews24.com/2013/10/25/japanese-blog-titled-gods-defective-goods-sparks-debate-over-down-syndrome-babies/

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, Normades said:

I wonder if they have resources for people with DS [in Japan] and are accepting of them.  

No to both, which is why they moved to Australia (her father's homeland) when Elena was a child. 

(I'm not sure if growing up in Australia was ever mentioned on the show, but I remember the poster who knows most of these people noted it back when the show premiered and we saw how Hiromi's long struggle to accept Elena instilled the sense of shame Elena was struggling with.)

[anonymousgirl]

Hiromi still struggles with acceptance in my opinion she has a tendency to compare Elena with the others and wishing she could be better, with that said it was kind of understandable 

[Normades]

Just now, Bastet said:

No to both, which is why they moved to Australia (her father's homeland) when Elena was a child. 

(I'm not sure if growing up in Australia was ever mentioned on the show, but I remember the poster who knows most of these people noted it back when the show premiered and we saw how Hiromi's long struggle to accept Elena instilled the sense of shame Elena was struggling with.)

Thanks for the info.  I wonder if any of that has changed since Elena was born?  Obviously things have gotten better here in America, but there is still so much room for improvement.  When my sis was little in the 1960's my family moved from the midwest to a more metropolitan area in the south because there was a decent school for her and my father could find work.  I'm sure lots of families have had to make those hard decisions to uproot everything they know to ensure their child can have the best care they can provide.  

1 minute ago, anonymousgirl said:

Hiromi still struggles with acceptance in my opinion she has a tendency to compare Elena with the others and wishing she could be better, with that said it was kind of understandable 

Oh, I agree and I feel for both of them.  I'm sure Elena feels it, too.  My sis was much more profoundly affected by DS, but she knew when someone didn't accept her.  She really had a sixth sense about certain things, even when people tried to fake it she could definitely pick up on it.  The great part was that she always had the attitude of "what is their problem."  

[Eureka]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

No to both, which is why they moved to Australia (her father's homeland) when Elena was a child. 

(I'm not sure if growing up in Australia was ever mentioned on the show, but I remember the poster who knows most of these people noted it back when the show premiered and we saw how Hiromi's long struggle to accept Elena instilled the sense of shame Elena was struggling with.)

I find it interesting that Elena doesn't have an Australian or Japanese accent, despite having lived in both places and growing up with parents with their respective accents. She sounds very American to me. I wonder when they moved to California.

[camom]

Quote

I wonder when they moved to California.

I'm not positive, but I think it was when Elena was a teenager.