S06.E08: Start To Finish

[peach]

But I wasn't describing Negan's character.  I was describing the guy in the road who ordered Daryl & Co out of the truck so he could monologue them about how all their stuff belonged to Negan.  I was referring to him as the leader of that group in the road.  I'll just edit the post. 

[HalcyonDays]

It sounded like you were talking about Negan. But if it was the middle guy, then okay, no issue.

[peach]

It sounded like you were talking about Negan. But if it was the middle guy, then okay, no issue.

 

I just took that part out so it wasn't confusing to anyone.  And I completely agree with keeping any spoilers out as much as possible.

[AndySmith]

Peers are also a rare thing in Carl's world. Maybe it was as simple as part of him hoping to have at least someone to hang out with

 

They can compare their shitty haircuts.

[Gentian root]

Dear Rick from a couple episodes back,

Why in the name of Zarquon was every able-bodied person not armed to the teeth all day every day starting a few minutes after you came through the gate? Did everyone except Ron forget the Armory until Jessie's house?

Yes, stand watch on the fence, but not with one rifle and not solo. Get the ASZhats off their asses, fuck the machete Tai Chi class, and start some target practice.

You're worried about noise concentrating Walkers in a week spot? How about more than one watchtower?

[Gentian root]

And another thing: Didn't Aaron say they'd cleaned out the area around Alexandria for 50 miles in every direction? CDB came up from Noah's place in Richmond, so most of that last leg from FPP's church to Alex (apparently the Carolinas weren't even interesting enough to film) was a cakewalk. That would also put the north edge of the Safe Zone past Baltimore. Was he not counting the quarry? Is the bikers' HQ in Philly?

[DEL901]

They evidentially lost a couple of red shirts at least.  I believe it was Rick who said, "Looks like most people got indoors".  Which I took to mean that he could see that some didn't.  We'll never see them though.

That won't last.  Rick's leading his little band of survivors out under their meat ponchos.  Sooner or later the others who got indoors are going to starve to death, lose their minds with fear or both.

[Macbeth]

I got to give it to Carol - my girl faked me out with her fake concussion problem.  Always sly and stealthy.  (I am trying to wipe from my mind the ridiculous Carol v. Morgan fight - that was just a no for me.)

 

On rewatch I noticed that after Carol slipped on some bullets when she got up she picked up some of those bullets.  Always thinking - just in case.

 

Of course the guns those bullets might have reloaded (I am looking at you Rosita and Tara) are no longer available.

 

 

[Haleth]

I'm absolutely appalled that Morgan would leave a defenceless person like Denise alone with the Wolf. If he was leaving, he should have taken her with him. He basically fed Denise to a predator. As a Morgan fan, I'm at a loss with this one.

Oh, but the Wolf's hands were tied.  What could possibly go wrong?

[natyxg]

I'm absolutely appalled that Morgan would leave a defenceless person like Denise alone with the Wolf. If he was leaving, he should have taken her with him. He basically fed Denise to a predator. As a Morgan fan, I'm at a loss with this one.

 

And to make it even worse he locked her in from the outside.

[that one guy]

Everyone was screaming to get them off the farm, now we're complaining that they should settle and rebuild?  The show runners can't win.

 

The problem with the farm wasn't the attempt to rebuild civilization, it was the lack of guest stars. The farm turned into the same group of people arguing about the same crap for weeks. The season took a turn for the better when Randall was introduced, but even that dragged on for too long. I don't really feel like there are too many characters now - I do feel like by jumping between groups of characters who are geographically separated the show has kind of lost focus. I'd hoped the midseason finale would be one that brought the characters and storylines back together into a cohesive whole, but no dice.

[tobeannounced]

I don't really know a lot of "behind the scenes" stuff that goes on with TWD, but with the lack of focus on the main characters this season, I had to wonder if everyone is off making movies or something?  I can't figure out why they hardly got any screen time.

[ChipBach]

I guess I had the same issue with the Negan motorcycle gang as I did with the Wolf.  Why in the world would Daryl obediently obey his commands?  They saw the gang from 100 yards away.  Stop the truck, load up the RPG and M16 and then go OR run OVER the motorcycles and keep going home.  These people HAVE to assume by now every unknown individual is a threat first, will kill you if you leave yourself exposed, etc.  Daryl just lived it a hour before...  It does not make sense.

[Dobian]

They should have just shot Curt Cobain in the face.  I'm so tired of this cliche where someone holding someone at gunpoint in front of them makes them invulnerable.  And what was to stop him from shooting them all after they stupidly disarmed themselves?  So much stupid.

 

Morgan needs to told to hit the road when the show resumes, his misplaced priorities make him a danger to the group.

 

I hope those ants at the start of the episode weren't undead ants.  *shivers*

Edited December 2, 2015 by Dobian

[CletusMusashi]

I liked the idea of the confrontation between Carol and Morgan, but not the execution.  The Carol we know doesn't fight like a fratboy who's just agreed to "step into the parking lot and say that." Carol fights like an ambush predator. Her opponents tend to die before they even realize she's attacking them.

 

One issue I have is that she just stood there, holding the knife in front of her, not making any attempt to actually close distance and stab the Wolf. Showing her only card and then standing there trying to convince Morgan, who is armed with a much, much bigger card, just isn't the Carol that we all know and fear.

 

I also wasn't a fan of that half-assed attempt at a fencing grip that she was attempting to do with a trench knife. She was holding the thing like she really expected to be able to parry a staff using just that little blade. A reverse grip would have made more sense. I mean, her immediate threat is a staff, which can either attack low (which the knife doesn't have enough reach to defend against no matter what, so just hope for the best,) or high, which could maybe be blocked by the knuckle rings. My money would still be on Morgan, because a staff's long and quick and can threaten a lot of different targets in a very short period of time. But at least it would look like she had some kind of plan. Also, if your real target, the one you are actively concerned with killing, is tied up on the floor, a reverse grip can stab him to death quicker. Meaning you have a better chance of making him dead before you yourself are beaten down with a stick.

 

Presumably, once the Wolf is dead, Morgan will bitch and cry and you can offer to find him a nice goldfish, but once he no longer has anyone to defend he will probably stop trying to knock you out. So Carol's agenda should have been to go after the murderer as quickly as possibly, not to just pointlessly wave a knife at the  guy who's holding a five foot long club.

 

I'd like to have seen her push past him, go downstairs, see the prisoner, and then have their argument. And then pull out her knife and try to rush over for the kill. Morgan could still stop her. The narrative could remain intact. But so would characterization.

Edited December 3, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[EllenC]

They can compare their shitty haircuts.

Yeah -- but Uncle Darryl wins.

 

I doubt Darryl really could see the biker gang 100 yards out ahead.

 

Sasha should have been driving, lord.   (Maybe Negan's friends have a headband Darryl can borrow if they don't have scissors on them. At least some of those spare emergency napkins it was important to mention, to wipe off the grime and sweat?)

 

Yes, I do need to learn to ignore Darryl's hair. But in general, the women do tend to be more competent and focused in a pinch (when not tripping).

Edited December 2, 2015 by EllenC

[guilfoyleatpp]

Tiny Tim had a much more occluded and warbley voice than Lucas did.

 

Okay, now if you'll excuse me I have to go correct my neighbor's grammar and yell at a kid to get off my lawn.

I think I love you. In the David Cassidy way.

[Raven1707]

Here are the Live + Same Day ratings for the first half of Season 6:

 

10-11-15 “First Time Again” 14.633 million viewers
10-18-15 “JSS” 12.183 million viewers
10-25-15 “Thank You” 13.143 million viewers
11-01-15 “Here’s Not Here” 13.339 million viewers
11-08-15 “Now” 12.440 million viewers
11-15-15 “Always Accountable” 12.871 million viewers
11-22-15 “Heads Up” 13.224 million viewers
11-29-15 “Start to Finish” 13.981 million viewers

 

...from TV By the Numbers.

[Captain I0]

Anyone who defends Carol in this ep is as batshit as she is.

 

Whatever you think of Morgan's dumbassery over this unfair Wolf, he was right about one thing. "now is not the time"

 

And Carol just effed it up the whole way. There was no need to kill this guy in the middle of a walker horde attack, or really for her to kill him at all. All she would have had to do is tell Rick and she would have gotten both of her wishes granted with a dead Wolf and exiled/dead Morgan.

 

And even if she was convinced that he had to die RIGHT NOW, she still was a moron for trying to attack Morgan with a knife. She could have called his bluff. She could have tried to go for the Wolf and seen if Morgan was really willing to kill her over him, but instead she goes after somebody bigger and stronger than her with a knife...mensa material there.

 

But, really, I won't go as far as to say it's out of character for her. She's been nuts since the Prison. Taking it upon herself to kill people in their group and burn them, without consulting anyone was bad, but it was understandable. Rick was still crazy and the group didn't have any real leadership. She crossed a line, but you could understand the thought process.

 

But, the only redeeming thing she's done since then (which was a big one) is the attack on Terminus. Last season she went Yoko, trying to get Rick to break up the band. Whispering in his ear and trying to isolate him from the rest of CDB. She also intentionally set off Porchdick M.D, likely in an attempt to get him to do just what he did and get himself killed..taking someone else with him.

 

So, no, I wouldn't say this is out of character. She's proven herself to be working a different angle for CDB than anyone else in the group and doesn't really have any interest in doing what's best for the group, or even for herself, at any given time.

 

 

 

[ghoulina]

Dear Rick from a couple episodes back,

Why in the name of Zarquon was every able-bodied person not armed to the teeth all day every day starting a few minutes after you came through the gate? Did everyone except Ron forget the Armory until Jessie's house?

Yes, stand watch on the fence, but not with one rifle and not solo. Get the ASZhats off their asses, fuck the machete Tai Chi class, and start some target practice.
You're worried about noise concentrating Walkers in a week spot? How about more than one watchtower?

 

This is what I was talking about back on pages 1-2, about the writers making the characters regress in really unbelievable ways. There is no way in hell, with a herd that size at the gates, Rick and Michonne and the rest would be so lackadaisical about arming the town. They'd all be carrying multiple weapons and have stashes set up along the fence line. Rick has seen Hershel's farm decimated, the prison gates knocked down, Terminus overrun. This isn't his first rodeo. I'm just not buying any of these lame reactions. 

[Ohwell]

I think that there was a part of Morgan that actually wanted to kill Carol because he knew that someday, somehow she would try to kill him.  Instead, I think he just body-slammed her because Denise was watching.  When they both wake up, he still has to watch out for her because she's really going to try to kill him, if someone else doesn't get to him first.  I wish he could somehow get away from the crazy CDB gang and just go out on his own again.  He wouldn't be any worse off by himself again.

[paigow]

You see this cat Negan is a bad mother
(Shut your mouth)
But I'm talkin' about Negan

[Nashville]

And to make it even worse he locked her in from the outside.

Hey, Wolves get hungry too.

  

You see this cat Negan is a bad mother

(Shut your mouth)

But I'm talkin' about Negan

You mean... Joe?

!!!CLAIMED!!!

[paigow]

Touche Monsieur Nash de Ville!

[AngelaHunter]

Oh, but the Wolf's hands were tied.  What could possibly go wrong?

 

Whenever you see a prisoner with hands tied or cuffed in front (Even cops have been portrayed doing this although it's unbelieveably idiotic and no cop would do it) you know it's done soley so they can escape at just the right moment. We saw exactly the same thing with Tyreese and the Termite. It's getting kind of old. And predictable. And boring.

[NoWillToResist]

My problem with the Carol/Morgan showdown was that it was out of character for Carol.

 

Considering how crappy many of the characterizations have become, I guess I should be happy that TPTB gave Carol the excuse of a concussion for her behaviour. Because everyone else? Not so much.

 

Carl is clearly the best son ever. What's the opposite of a cockblock? Dude is covering up that Ron is ready and willing to kill him so that Rick doesn't have to break things off with Jessie. On the downside, much like Morgan, people now unknowingly have a psycho in their midst.

 

And Deanna drags her half dead self into a room with Judith. Nice. Not at all selfish. And then she decides she'd rather die in pain and ripped to shreds rather than save a bullet for herself.

 

And Jessie tells Sam to turn off the music and they spend the remainder of their time in the house ignoring the fact that his fucking music is still playing. *sigh*

 

And Lori 2.0 just tells her son to "pretend to be brave" and "pretend to be strong". Wow. And then she waltzes his ass out into a field of walkers with eyes and mouth wide open. Stellar plan. Why don't you just strap an owl sculpture to his back?

 

Eugene, Tara and Rosita just...sit in a garage while some walkers gently tap at the glass of the door. Um...ok. What was their plan? Why weren't they trying to get into the house? Which, coincidentally, appeared to be the same one that Carol, Denise, Morgan and Wolfie were in. Oh, right. They had to wait to leave the garage in order to facilitate that stand off.

 

Tara and Rosita bring guns to a knife show and still lose. That...takes special skill. And Denise has the self-preservation of a walnut. When the Wolf bent down to get the gun, she could have tried something to get away and open up a window of opportunity for the others. She was fucked anyway...

 

 

Morgan: We can be better than them.

Carol: We are better than them.

Morgan: Not if we kill.

Carol: They made us kill. We had to stop it. I had to stop it.

Morgan: With life, there is possibility.

 

 

I thought Carol was talking about the Wolves. CDB are better than the Wolves, but then the Wolves attacked and Carol was forced to kill again. While Morgan was busy wolf-whispering, Carol was trying to save people lives by eliminating the threats.

 

I would have punted Sam and his bowl cut into the oncoming zombie herd so freaking fast. Stupid kid. Stupid freaking hair.

 

 

I cannot believe that Jessie is a hair stylist.

 

 

so Carl was carry Judith under the sheet but was still able to hold hands. Did he have a baby carrier thing on under there that i missed? 

 

I wondered about that too. It looked like Carl was only holding her, not putting her into a carry bag thingie. Also, why wouldn't you get the baby and THEN put the nasty poncho on?

 

1) For the blocking of the scenes with the Wolf, Denise must have agreed to be locked up in the room with the Wolf until Morgan got back. Who the fuck would ever do that? And, why would Morgan have thought it was in any way OK to ask her to do it? She didn't and he wouldn't; it was all just hand-wavy necessary to set the scene.

 

Yeah, when we cut to her sitting there with the Wolf, I was all "WTF?" You're telling me that Denise was all "yeah man, sure, lock me in with the psycho murderer. It's all good. I'm sure I'll be fine with my kickass strength and survival skills." I would not have let Morgan leave me alone with that dude.

 

The thing is, Sam was still cool with Carol after she said that stuff about tying him to the tree.

 

I thought it was interesting that he was drawing the scene she threatened him with (tying him to a tree for the walkers to get).

 

I can't lie though...the Wolf brought the laughs. Him constantly undermining Morgan's comments about his nature and ability to change made me snicker. I was half expecting Morgan to seethe "would you shut up? I'm trying to save your life!"

 

And Deanna's "well...shit" made me laugh.

[NorthstarATL]

Anyone who defends Carol in this ep is as batshit as she is.

 

Whatever you think of Morgan's dumbassery over this unfair Wolf, he was right about one thing. "now is not the time"

 

And Carol just effed it up the whole way. There was no need to kill this guy in the middle of a walker horde attack, or really for her to kill him at all. All she would have had to do is tell Rick and she would have gotten both of her wishes granted with a dead Wolf and exiled/dead Morgan.

 

And even if she was convinced that he had to die RIGHT NOW, she still was a moron for trying to attack Morgan with a knife. She could have called his bluff. She could have tried to go for the Wolf and seen if Morgan was really willing to kill her over him, but instead she goes after somebody bigger and stronger than her with a knife...mensa material there.

 

But, really, I won't go as far as to say it's out of character for her. She's been nuts since the Prison. Taking it upon herself to kill people in their group and burn them, without consulting anyone was bad, but it was understandable. Rick was still crazy and the group didn't have any real leadership. She crossed a line, but you could understand the thought process.

 

But, the only redeeming thing she's done since then (which was a big one) is the attack on Terminus. Last season she went Yoko, trying to get Rick to break up the band. Whispering in his ear and trying to isolate him from the rest of CDB. She also intentionally set off Porchdick M.D, likely in an attempt to get him to do just what he did and get himself killed..taking someone else with him.

 

So, no, I wouldn't say this is out of character. She's proven herself to be working a different angle for CDB than anyone else in the group and doesn't really have any interest in doing what's best for the group, or even for herself, at any given time.

She also kept the fatalities amongst the Alexandrians to a minimum when the wolves attacked; something she did not HAVE to do. The Rick/Pete showdown was bound to happen, and Carol's experience with Ed probably informed her decision-making in that instance, but I think different viewers can make a different assessment as to whether her actions were justified. And the face-off with Morgan WAS out of character, if only for the fact that, as I and many other posters have pointed out, Carol just wasn't going to win that fight, and, since Ed, Carol doesn't take on an opponent one on one, especially when she is outmatched. That's what's out of character. I have no doubt that she'd kill the wolf rather than allow him to take more guns, and possibly a doctor; but she'd do it when no one was looking, or perhaps with a nice casserole. Probably Morgan as well, since she now sees him as a threat to the group. But not one on one like that.

[CletusMusashi]

I think the Carol/Morgan faceoff was meant to be a shoutout to all the dancing around that Rick and Shane used to do.

Rick repeatedly chose to let Shane live, long after he should have. Because he didn't want to kill him.

And Shane repeatedly gave Rick warnings, because in Shane's mind, an ideal outcome might actually be Rick killing Shane, thereby establishing himself as the stronger alpha, and therefore best equipped to take care of Lori.

Here's the thing, though. Rick and Shane was a good story, but it was a different story.

Shane did a lot of really good things before he went crazy. That, combined with a lot of history as Rick's friend, bought him some forgiveness. Morgan is not early Rick. Morgan is a ridiculous parody of early Rick. And Carol isn't challenging Morgan openly because she honestly believes that if Morgan can win a frontal assault against an injured woman with a much smaller weapon it somehow makes him more useful to the group than a Cardigan ninja. She's challenging him openly because they want to do an homage to Rick and Shane, and are too lazy to write it intelligently.

Edited December 3, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

And then she waltzes his ass out into a field of walkers with eyes and mouth wide open.

 

She should have blindfolded him, the way it's done with horses to lead them out of a burning barn. Maybe gagged him too.

 

Morgan is a ridiculous parody

 

I agree and we could remove the words "a" and "parody" and I'd still agree.

Edited December 3, 2015 by AngelaHunter

[Ronin Jackson]

I'm pretty much hate watching this show at this point. It's hard for me to justify much of the creative decision making in recent episodes.  I had previously been a big fan of the Morgan character... when he showed up every blue moon the show really came to life. That was until he returned for good... I suspected the correlation between his appearances and the quality spike was a fluke and the writing couldn't maintain him being a regular character, but I didn't see how badly they'd do the character coming. The thing is, there's hardly been any development of the relationship between Rick and Morgan since he returned as a regular. I think they are trying to make him some kind of tragic figure who is clinging to some false sense of idealism, but all they've succeeded in doing, which others have expressed in spades, is making him annoying and hateful. It doesn't help that they are doing everything they can to make the Wolf he's protecting this smarmy hateful person. The only way they can save this storyline from becoming a complete and utter narrative brain fart is if the Wolf somehow redeems himself, but they've made him so ridiculously scummy even that probably won't work. It's not even an interesting or compelling scumminess.

 

And the Alexandrians I don't get at all. What are we supposed to feel about Sam? Are we supposed to feel sorry for him? Are we supposed to hate him or laugh at him? Is the latter supposed to be entertaining or compelling? Okay, I get it, the Alexandrians have been sheltered and are unfit to survive in the world and that is catching up to them. How many episodes does that concept take to explore? Did any of us not get it the moment they were introduced? This show has a bad habit of spinning it's tires on ideas that are not particularly complex or compelling. Even then, when Sam starts calling for his mom when they are trying to sneak through a herd, why not at least give him some reason for it.... establish SOMETHING about that so it's ironic or tragic or something other than completely utterly mind numbingly stupid. Yeah there's stupid people in the world, but that's not compelling. Tragic, flawed people can be compelling, but we got nothing from this kid, other than some ludicrous metaphor about how he's too oblivious to even finish the cookies mommy bakes for him. Quick poll: Who gives a crap about that? And why?

[Bisquit]

 

Morgan is done, no place for him in this show now.

 

At the end of last season, I had a conversation with a friend, who, like me, was barely hanging in there with this show.  One of the things she looked forward to was Morgan becoming a regular this season.

So was I.  But I told her that with Morgan being a black male character who actually managed to became very popular with a lot of WD fans I fully expected TPTB to do any or of all of the following to him:

 

1.  Make him  or his storyline so boring or annoying that people will just want him to go away or not care if he gets eaten.

 

2.  Have him do/say as many stupid/annoying/vile things necessary to get most of the viewers to HATE, HATE, HATE HIM to the point where they want him to die mostest of all.

 

Judging by the comments I've read about him throughout the season, and especially after this episode,  I would say, Mission Accomplished, to TPTB. Bravo. 

 

And hey, maybe they'll add a satisfying end to Project Character Assassination by

having Negan baseball bat Morgan to the moon

so Lennie James can be freeeee, hopefully to be cast on a show where he'll get to play a character worthy of his talent (see: Jericho).

Edited December 3, 2015 by Bisquit

[GreyBunny]

They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.  They could have crafted Morgan into a badass who still had some Glenn-ish humanity but isn't such an absolutist.  

They even screwed up Sam.  They could have used him for some ongoing moments of dark buddy comedy with Carol and given her a chance to let her guard down and be a human a little with a kid, but no.  They turned him crazypants.  Sigh.  

[mightysparrow]

At the end of last season, I had a conversation with a friend, who, like me, was barely hanging in there with this show.  One of the things she looked forward to was Morgan becoming a regular this season.

So was I.  But I told her that with Morgan being a black male character who actually managed to became very popular with a lot of WD fans I fully expected TPTB to do any or of all of the following to him:

 

1.  Make him  or his storyline so boring or annoying that people will just want him to go away or not care if he gets eaten.

 

2.  Have him do/say as many stupid/annoying/vile things necessary to get most of the viewers to HATE, HATE, HATE HIM to the point where they want him to die mostest of all.

 

Judging by the comments I've read about him throughout the season, and especially after this episode,  I would say, Mission Accomplished, to TPTB. Bravo. 

 

And hey, maybe they'll add a satisfying end to Project Character Assassination by

having Negan baseball bat Morgan to the moon

so Lennie James can be freeeee, hopefully to be cast on a show where he'll get to play a character worthy of his talent (see: Jericho).

 

I'm really hoping that Lennie only signed a one season contract.  He's too good an actor for this shit.  But he should have really had a chat with Chad, Lawrence, Iron-E, Seth and any other Black man who's had the misfortune to book a gig with TWD.

[GodsBeloved]

She also kept the fatalities amongst the Alexandrians to a minimum when the wolves attacked; something she did not HAVE to do. 

She had to do it if she wanted Rick's group, herself include to survive. I have serious doubts that the Alexandrians safety was Carol's motivation. She was fighting for the lives of her group and the Alexandrians happened to be in the right place to benefit from that.

 

Regarding Carol facing off with Morgan being OOC, she also faced off with Jessie's husband who she knew was a woman beater. That man was  taller and bigger than Morgan. Maybe Carol thought Morgan would be like Jessie's husband and cower before her and her knife.

Edited December 3, 2015 by GodsBeloved

[GodsBeloved]

At the end of last season, I had a conversation with a friend, who, like me, was barely hanging in there with this show.  One of the things she looked forward to was Morgan becoming a regular this season.

So was I.  But I told her that with Morgan being a black male character who actually managed to became very popular with a lot of WD fans I fully expected TPTB to do any or of all of the following to him:

 

1.  Make him  or his storyline so boring or annoying that people will just want him to go away or not care if he gets eaten.

 

2.  Have him do/say as many stupid/annoying/vile things necessary to get most of the viewers to HATE, HATE, HATE HIM to the point where they want him to die mostest of all.

 

Judging by the comments I've read about him throughout the season, and especially after this episode,  I would say, Mission Accomplished, to TPTB. Bravo. 

 

And hey, maybe they'll add a satisfying end to Project Character Assassination by

having Negan baseball bat Morgan to the moon

so Lennie James can be freeeee, hopefully to be cast on a show where he'll get to play a character worthy of his talent (see: Jericho).

I think the mission was accomplished too. RIP Morgan.

 

I didn't see Jericho until this year on Netflix. Enjoyed LJ immensely.

Edited December 3, 2015 by GodsBeloved

[NorthstarATL]

She had to do it if she wanted Rick's group, herself include to survive. I have serious doubts that the Alexandrians safety was Carol's motivation. She was fighting for the lives of her group and the Alexandrians happened to be in the right place to benefit from that.

 

Regarding Carol facing off with Morgan being OOC, she also faced off with Jessie's husband who she knew was a woman beater. That man was  taller and bigger than Morgan. Maybe Carol thought Morgan would be like Jessie's husband and cower before her and her knife.

She acted when an Alexandrian was killed before her eyes, and it was that Alexandrian's body she revisited after the attack was over.  Protecting herself in the event of an attack would have been one thing, but she went and pro-actively fought the wolves, something that she was not required to do, and, had Alexandria fallen, she could have slipped out and survived.

  Carol knew Pete was a wife beater, which is different. She's been observing them, and probably suspected, as statistics prove out, that when faced with someone other than a spouse or child, Pete was a coward, and would not have laid a hand on HER. Also, it was a relative period of calm, where, if something DID happen, she could bring her group running by shouting loudly enough. Morgan, OOH, she had seen fight, and had no illusions as to his capabilities nor his willingness to enter into a physical confrontation, something she herself would not do. It was entirely out of character for her to engage Morgan at that moment.

[NoWillToResist]

She had to do it if she wanted Rick's group, herself include to survive. I have serious doubts that the Alexandrians safety was Carol's motivation. She was fighting for the lives of her group and the Alexandrians happened to be in the right place to benefit from that..

 

Most of CDB (or at least the ones closest to Carol) were not in Alexandria at the time of the attack though. I have trouble believing that Carol gives zero fucks about the Alexandrians when she took the time to cradle the dying body of one, cried over her, and then put her out of her misery. She could have just been all "sucks to be you" *stab* and moved on, but she didn't. And we later saw Carol crying on a porch, even though no one from CDB had died.

 

CDB can generally take care of themselves. Carol could have just taken up position to guard their most valuable asset (the armory) and gunned down any bad guys who approached. Instead, she gave whatshername a gun to guard the armory, provided basic instructions on its use, and then went to clean house. Only Morgan and FPP would have been useless in a fight; Maggie, Rosita and Tara were armed and would have no trouble gunning down murderous invaders, IMO.

 

I have to chalk up most of Carol's behaviour in this ep to the concussion TPTB conveniently gave us because I have trouble believing that Carol would otherwise just sit down and do nothing (particularly when the company is her least favourite person). The Wolf wasn't the priority there and instead of planning a strategy to deal with the walkers, Carol sits there and makes the Wolf her focus. It's almost as if the concussion made her forget the shitshow that was outside their door and all she could remember was the danger inside the house (which is why she was there in the first place).

 

What bothers me the most is that the showdown between Carol and Morgan didn't have to happen. The walkers arrived when Carol and Morgan were at the door. There was nothing stopping the Wolf from knocking out Denise and escaping while everyone's attention was diverted, but TPTB clearly wanted that confrontation to happen. I HOPE there was a point to it which will reveal itself in the second half of the season. Otherwise, it was unnecessary bullshit to create controversy for the break.

[Giselle]

And Deanna's "well...shit" made me laugh.

 

"well...shit"

 

That is what I thought about the whole sixth season.

[lulee]

Regarding Carol facing off with Morgan being OOC, she also faced off with Jessie's husband who she knew was a woman beater. That man was  taller and bigger than Morgan. Maybe Carol thought Morgan would be like Jessie's husband and cower before her and her knife.

I don't think the two situations are equivalent. Carol went to Pete, who was not expecting her and would have had no expectation that she was about to threaten him, and there was no indication that she was expecting to fight to him then and there. (And I think Pete's reaction was more like shock that this lady was saying anything about his business.)

With Morgan there was an actual "face off." She was actually intending to fight him based on their previous interactions. Not saying it was good, well-reasoned, rational decision on her part, but I just don't think the situations are apples to apples.

[paigow]

I'm pretty much hate watching this show at this point.

Start: Love The Walking Dead

Finish: Hate The Walking Dead

Just skip over Fear

[Nashville]

I don't think the two situations are equivalent. Carol went to Pete, who was not expecting her and would have had no expectation that she was about to threaten him, and there was no indication that she was expecting to fight to him then and there. (And I think Pete's reaction was more like shock that this lady was saying anything about his business.)

With Morgan there was an actual "face off." She was actually intending to fight him based on their previous interactions. Not saying it was good, well-reasoned, rational decision on her part, but I just don't think the situations are apples to apples.

Plus at the time of confrontation, Pete had a specific lack of any kind of weapon (as well as fortitude - intestinal OR testicular - but I digress).

Whereas Morgan had a REALLY big stick - albeit not pointy.

:)

[HighMaintenance]

Morgan is not early Rick. Morgan is a ridiculous parody of early Rick.

I agree with this.  Morgan is a much crazier/damaged version of 1st season Rick.  I remember Rick saying in the S1E2 to Merle "We DON'T' kill the living."  Of course this is long before Rick knows that the living are a much bigger threat than the undead could ever be.  Morgan has taken that mantra to "zero tolerance policy" mindset.  His character shows that he is not only mentally disturbed but  he finds it impossible to make moral decisions or judgement calls (can't kill his zombie wife, or kills everyone, or won't kill anyone living regardless of circumstances).

 

Just as a sidebar, I never understood the huge fan love for Morgan.  I never found his character particularly interesting or important to the overall story.  So, regardless that the show has taken him from one of the most revered to one of the most reviled doesn't really matter to me.

[lulee]

A character largely beloved from a couple guest spots in significant episodes becomes a regular and the characterization turns far less satisfactory to a big chunk of viewers?

 

So Morgan = Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

[Ronin Jackson]

 

Just as a sidebar, I never understood the huge fan love for Morgan.  I never found his character particularly interesting or important to the overall story. 

 

I don't know what everyone else's reasons were, but for me, I'm not sure it was about the character. It was just that the show was good when he showed up. The pilot was great. The episode "Clear" was great. The fifth season premiere where he appeared in a post credit cameo was great. Those were three of the very best episodes on a show that, IMO, has been marked by a lot of inconsistency and long stretches of mediocrity. So perhaps it's not so much that he was a great character but he was associated with high points of the show. But I will say in those first two episodes Lennie James was excellent and brought an emotional humanity to the show that they haven't always been successful at achieving. So good episodes and a good actor... but obviously with more screentime the general quality of the writing was never going to be able to maintain that.

[paigow]

I don't know what everyone else's reasons were, but for me, I'm not sure it was about the character. It was just that the show was good when he showed up.

Part of the Morgan Love was that he was a proven and efficient killer, [Early Tyrese & Sasha were not that skilled, Noah & Beth were not overly helpful] So the hope was Morgan would be an upgrade if he ever caught up to CDB. Unfortunately, he had already met the cheesemaker...  

[ghoulina]

She had to do it if she wanted Rick's group, herself include to survive. I have serious doubts that the Alexandrians safety was Carol's motivation. She was fighting for the lives of her group and the Alexandrians happened to be in the right place to benefit from that.

 

I think Carol was starting to care about some of the ASZhats. She looked truly pained when she had to put down the one woman who had been attacked by the Wolves, but was still alive. It seems like she was beginning to enjoy casserole club and having somewhat of a life like she might have had pre-turn, but without Ed lurking in the shadows. 

[NoWillToResist]

I think Carol was starting to care about some of the ASZhats. She looked truly pained when she had to put down the one woman who had been attacked by the Wolves, but was still alive. It seems like she was beginning to enjoy casserole club and having somewhat of a life like she might have had pre-turn, but without Ed lurking in the shadows. 

 

Aw, man. And now I've made myself sad, imagining an ASZ where the community would be trained in weapons/defense by CDB and CDB would be 'domesticated' a little by their community; they would play together, go on runs together, defend against walkers/invaders together etc. They could have had a happy little paradise going!

 

It's a shame because so many members of CDB deserve some honest-to-goodness peace and happiness. The prison was dark and miserable whereas ASZ was this surburban paradise with luxuries like electricity and running hot water. The ASZers were lucky to have had what they had for so long.

[Nashville]

I agree with this.  Morgan is a much crazier/damaged version of 1st season Rick.

Actually, I think a more accurate parallel would be current-day Morgan and early-S4 (post-farm/pre-Prison-collapse) Rick:

• Both have suffered personal loss: Morgan lost wife and son, Rick lost Shane and Lori.
• Both went unbalanced for a bit: Morgan wanting to "clear" the world, Rick seeing and getting phone calls from ghost Lori.
• Both needed to embrace an escape from violence to regain their stability: Morgan learning aikido, Rick becoming Farmer Rick.
• Both required tutelage from an elder to navigate this road back to sanity, then lost their tutor: Morgan had the Cheese Wiz, Rick had Herschel.

In short ( I know, I know - too late):

• Rick and Morgan have been traveling the same road; Morgan just happens to be a couple of months behind, metaphorically speaking.
• In those "couple of months", Rick has had to deal with extreme situations (ex. the Prison collapse, Terminus, Termite Lite) which have drastically attenuated Rick's ability to hang on to the pacifist mindset to which Morgan still clings.

Give Morgan some tine, and he should figure it out - and hopefully, not too many people will die in the interim while he sorts out his shit. :)

[Starchild]

Part of the Morgan Love was that he was a proven and efficient killer, [Early Tyrese & Sasha were not that skilled, Noah & Beth were not overly helpful] So the hope was Morgan would be an upgrade if he ever caught up to CDB. Unfortunately, he had already met the cheesemaker...  

Not really. He lost his son because he couldn't put down his wife. Then he was just killing people indiscriminately.

[Raven1707]

At the risk of being banished to the back of an overturned bus in a prison yard...I still like Morgan and am clinging to the admittedly fading hope that the character can somehow be redeemed. Not sure what that would take, but -- quoting from another of my favorite apocalyptic shows, Survivors -- "Hope never dies."

 

Full disclosure: I've adored Lennie James since Jericho days.