General Gabbery: DWTS

[spanana]

9 minutes ago, realdancemom said:

From this season:

SYTYCD contestants:

Artem, Sasha, Brandon, Alan, Witney, Lindsay, Jenna

 

Non-SYTYCD contestants:

Cheryl, Sharna, Emma, Gleb, Keo

 

In addition, Haley from the troupe is from the show.  Just based off this season, certain audience members don't care about the quality of pros since they voted for Joe and Bobby.  That means they don't care about dance technique or whether dances follow the assigned style.

Yeah, that's the thing. I doubt most regular at home viewers know which pros were world champions and which weren't and I doubt they care.  I think people are just attracted to pros they like, either because of personality or looks, or how they work with their celebs.  I personally want more diversity amongst the pros, but as long as they know ballroom well enough to teach it and choreograph numbers, or have people help them choreograph numbers, I'm not sure their status in the real dance world matters.  Does random person in Ohio know that Karina was a world champion dancer and Sharna isn't?  Probably not.

IMO it's partly the reason that someone like Witney is very successful here.  She's a good dancer and she's better at hip hop than many of her fellow ballroomers, but is she a fabulous technician?  No.  But she's very telegenic and she's a good performer who knows how to perform to a camera and when she's on with her celebs, she's great.  Those at home aren't going to care that she doesn't have Karina's accolades.

[Toonces464]

15 minutes ago, realdancemom said:

From this season:

SYTYCD contestants:

Artem, Sasha, Brandon, Alan, Witney, Lindsay, Jenna

 

Non-SYTYCD contestants:

Cheryl, Sharna, Emma, Gleb, Keo

 

In addition, Haley from the troupe is from the show.  Just based off this season, certain audience members don't care about the quality of pros since they voted for Joe and Bobby.  That means they don't care about dance technique or whether dances follow the assigned style.

And if I'm not mistaken, Sharna, Emma, Gleb and Keo were all in BtF, weren't they?

[friendperidot]

Quote

And if I'm not mistaken, Sharna, Emma, Gleb and Keo were all in BtF, weren't they?

I give up, I'm old, I'm cranky after last night and I hate initials, what is BtF? All I can think of is "Before the Fall" and other than the title, I don't have a clue what that is.

[realdancemom]

1 hour ago, spanana said:

Yeah, that's the thing. I doubt most regular at home viewers know which pros were world champions and which weren't and I doubt they care.  I think people are just attracted to pros they like, either because of personality or looks, or how they work with their celebs.  I personally want more diversity amongst the pros, but as long as they know ballroom well enough to teach it and choreograph numbers, or have people help them choreograph numbers, I'm not sure their status in the real dance world matters.  Does random person in Ohio know that Karina was a world champion dancer and Sharna isn't?  Probably not.

IMO it's partly the reason that someone like Witney is very successful here.  She's a good dancer and she's better at hip hop than many of her fellow ballroomers, but is she a fabulous technician?  No.  But she's very telegenic and she's a good performer who knows how to perform to a camera and when she's on with her celebs, she's great.  Those at home aren't going to care that she doesn't have Karina's accolades.

Witney does really well with males that can do hip-hop, e.g. Milo, Carlos, etc.  If TPTB wanted to reach a younger demo, I can see why they would get cross-trained dancers like her.  When I read comments from Bobby's fans, they said that he entertained them.  I can't argue with that since that's so subjective.  They also said he's the most improved.  I think that would have been Evanna but that's their opinion.

4 minutes ago, friendperidot said:

I give up, I'm old, I'm cranky after last night and I hate initials, what is BtF? All I can think of is "Before the Fall" and other than the title, I don't have a clue what that is.

Burn The Floor.  Here's the Wiki page so I don't know how accurate it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_the_Floor

ETA - Gave the link since it gave names of pros that danced in it.

Edited November 20, 2018 by realdancemom

[tedd]

this show is officially dead. this is the day the show has died. i am beyond disappointed with the outcome. i commend bobby for his hard work and dedication but he is no dancer at all. for him to win over milo, alexis, demarcus, tinashe, evanna, and juan pablo is such a huge joke. this was the most ridiculous season in the history of this show. it is nothing but a popularity contest. sharna deserved to win but not with bobby. she didn’t win with nick carter, charlie white, and james hinchclife but she won with bobby for her first mirrorball? WOWWWWW i cannot stomach this. this show has really lost it.

[Gueststar]

3 hours ago, spanana said:

Yeah, that's the thing. I doubt most regular at home viewers know which pros were world champions and which weren't and I doubt they care. 

It’s true average viewers don’t care. However, the quality of pros impact the level of dance and choreography. The quality of dance, nowadays, is so poor Bobby Bones can get 10s. Using shadow choreographers is one of the reasons we don’t see as much rehearsal footages as we’re used too. So yeah great pros make great show. 

 

And I’m not  suggesting to bring back the OGs because they’re old/burned out/moved on. Deena can recruit new blood by going to competitions instead of watching sytycd from her couch 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Gueststar

[spanana]

Just now, Gueststar said:

It’s true avarage viewers don’t care. However, the quality of pros impact level of dance and choreography. The quality of dance, nowadays, is so poor Bobby Bones can get 10s. Using shadow choreographers is one of the reasons we don’t see as much rehearsal footages as we’re used too. So yeah great pros make great show. 

 

And I’m not  suggesting to bring back the OGs because they’re old/burned out/moved on. Deena can recruit new blood by going to competitions instead of watching sytycd 

There have been shadow choreographers since the beginning of the show.  100%  There was a lot of drama over Cheryl not choreographing her early numbers and getting help.  Purists hated it.  I'm sure there were others.  She's been on the show since S2.  Also just as an aside, I'm not saying she gets help now. I have no idea if Cheryl does or she doesn't. I just remember she used to have people from her ballroom days help with her show routines in the early days and some people were upset about it.  

Also Bobby managing to get 10's has absolutely no correlation to the dance quality of the pros and/or their choreography.  He likely got 10's because his win was coming no matter what.  Bobby didn't win because Witney didn't choreograph well enough for Milo or Keo for Evanna.  I don't think those two things have anything to do with each other.

If Karina had been paired with Bobby, would he be a better dancer? I doubt it.  The only thing different I see with Karina is I doubt she would have abided by his foolishness and might have taken him to task for some of his antics on the dance floor.

While I'm not defending the sameness of a lot of our pros, the other reason I think the show leans towards cross trained pros is because the show itself has leaned away from ballroom with the addition of contemp and jazz and whatever else the judges feel like throwing in from season to season.  To the point that some of our earlier pros seemed to start feeling really uncomfortable when these newer styles were added because they didn't know how to choreograph for them, let alone weren't entirely trained to dance them. Karina and Cheryl were two I remember having some issues early on with the changes.  Wasn't it Karina that had a mini freak out, maybe in the all stars season, when she had to do a hip hop?

[Bridget]

3 hours ago, spanana said:

There have been shadow choreographers since the beginning of the show.  100%  There was a lot of drama over Cheryl not choreographing her early numbers and getting help.  Purists hated it.  I'm sure there were others.  She's been on the show since S2.  Also just as an aside, I'm not saying she gets help now. I have no idea if Cheryl does or she doesn't. I just remember she used to have people from her ballroom days help with her show routines in the early days and some people were upset about it.  

Also Bobby managing to get 10's has absolutely no correlation to the dance quality of the pros and/or their choreography.  He likely got 10's because his win was coming no matter what.  Bobby didn't win because Witney didn't choreograph well enough for Milo or Keo for Evanna.  I don't think those two things have anything to do with each other.

If Karina had been paired with Bobby, would he be a better dancer? I doubt it.  The only thing different I see with Karina is I doubt she would have abided by his foolishness and might have taken him to task for some of his antics on the dance floor.

While I'm not defending the sameness of a lot of our pros, the other reason I think the show leans towards cross trained pros is because the show itself has leaned away from ballroom with the addition of contemp and jazz and whatever else the judges feel like throwing in from season to season.  To the point that some of our earlier pros seemed to start feeling really uncomfortable when these newer styles were added because they didn't know how to choreograph for them, let alone weren't entirely trained to dance them. Karina and Cheryl were two I remember having some issues early on with the changes.  Wasn't it Karina that had a mini freak out, maybe in the all stars season, when she had to do a hip hop?

I would have loved to have seen her rip him a new one. I’d even pay to watch it!

I’ve only watched DWTS since season 11, but I do remember her getting frustrated over choreography one season for a dance that wasn’t ballroom or Latin.

Thanks to Wikipedia, it can be confirmed that that Karina had a Hip Hop dance (in week 4) during Season 15 with Apolo. Once I read it, it came flashing back to me. I distinctly remember her video package and how it showed her frustration with the trying to choreograph a routine.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Bridget

[Toonces464]

50 minutes ago, Bridget said:

I would have loved to have seen her rip him a new one. I’d even pay to watch it’

I’ve only watched DWTS since season 11, but I do remember her getting frustrated over choreography one season for a dance that wasn’t ballroom or Latin.

Thanks to Wikipedia, it can be confirmed that that Karina had a Hip Hop dance (in week 4) during Season 15 with Apolo. Once I read it, it came flashing back to me. I distinctly remember her video package and how it showed her frustration with the trying to choreograph a routine.

If I remember correctly, Cheryl also cited the new dance styles that she was not trained in as one of the reasons she left the show after Season 19.

[calipiano81]

A poster named Jason made the following suggestion on the Pure site and I actually find it a viable idea...

Quote

Instead of having people vote for an individual, they could have them rank the contestants and assign points accordingly. With a field of 5, 5 points would go to your first place vote, 4 points to your 2nd, and so on down to 1 point to your 5th place vote. This would mitigate the effect of a particularly large fan base. Contestants like Bobby and Joe might get the largest number of 1st place votes, but they’d get relatively few 2nd and 3rd place votes.

Right now, we vote FOR who we want to stay/win. With this kind of system, I think you would be helping your favorite(s), but you would also have a say in who gets eliminated.

What do you all think?

[babyhouseman]

15 hours ago, Bridget said:

I saw her run onto the stage to hug Sharna. I had to do a double take because her hair appeared longer and light brown. (Maybe it was the ballroom lighting and so much damn confetti everywhere, but she didn’t look blonde at all. I am too upset to check social media right now to confirm her hair color, but her Botoxed face is immediately recognizable!

Yeah, she darkened her hair. 

[ShellyD]

Quote

1 hour ago, calipiano81 said:

A poster named Jason made the following suggestion on the Pure site and I actually find it a viable idea...

Right now, we vote FOR who we want to stay/win. With this kind of system, I think you would be helping your favorite(s), but you would also have a say in who gets eliminated.

What do you all think?

 

I like that idea a lot. Or vote for who you want to go home?

[vdw84]

Just now, ShellyD said:

I like that idea a lot. Or vote for who you want to go home?

I think it would be better if we vote for who want to go home because voting for who ur want to stay and win is still going to end up like another one of these seasons. I think if fans get to vote for who go home, things would have been alot different this season for one, I dont think Joe nor bobby would have made it nowhere as far as did in the competition and more deserving couple would have won.

[spanana]

33 minutes ago, vdw84 said:

I think it would be better if we vote for who want to go home because voting for who ur want to stay and win is still going to end up like another one of these seasons. I think if fans get to vote for who go home, things would have been alot different this season for one, I dont think Joe nor bobby would have made it nowhere as far as did in the competition and more deserving couple would have won.

I doubt they would ever let us vote for who we want to go home because there is too negative a connotation to that.  I think it's a little softer a blow for celebs and their egos just to say you didn't get as many votes as the other celebs to stay.  It's another entirely to tell a celeb that they are going home because the majority of the audience voted for them to leave, whether for dancing or because they just don't like them.  It's basically putting them all under spotlights and then at the end pointing at one couple and telling them the audience doesn't like them or likes everyone else better.  I'm not sure you would get celebs to sign on at all in that setting.

[PikaScrewChu]

7 hours ago, spanana said:

There have been shadow choreographers since the beginning of the show.  100%  There was a lot of drama over Cheryl not choreographing her early numbers and getting help.  Purists hated it.  I'm sure there were others.  She's been on the show since S2.  Also just as an aside, I'm not saying she gets help now. I have no idea if Cheryl does or she doesn't. I just remember she used to have people from her ballroom days help with her show routines in the early days and some people were upset about it.  

Also Bobby managing to get 10's has absolutely no correlation to the dance quality of the pros and/or their choreography.  He likely got 10's because his win was coming no matter what.  Bobby didn't win because Witney didn't choreograph well enough for Milo or Keo for Evanna.  I don't think those two things have anything to do with each other.

If Karina had been paired with Bobby, would he be a better dancer? I doubt it.  The only thing different I see with Karina is I doubt she would have abided by his foolishness and might have taken him to task for some of his antics on the dance floor.

While I'm not defending the sameness of a lot of our pros, the other reason I think the show leans towards cross trained pros is because the show itself has leaned away from ballroom with the addition of contemp and jazz and whatever else the judges feel like throwing in from season to season.  To the point that some of our earlier pros seemed to start feeling really uncomfortable when these newer styles were added because they didn't know how to choreograph for them, let alone weren't entirely trained to dance them. Karina and Cheryl were two I remember having some issues early on with the changes.  Wasn't it Karina that had a mini freak out, maybe in the all stars season, when she had to do a hip hop?

I remember when they were incorporating pop/hip hop moves into some of the Latin dances from the earlier seasons and the purists were losing their minds. Even Len said back in Season 6 "I'm not a fan of that bugalo hip hop dancing" when judging Kristi and Mark's cha cha. Meanwhile you had people like Tony Dovolani and Elena Grinenko start to incorporate hip hop moves into their routines around just a couple years prior. Although I believe SexyBack was a show routine and not a competition routine for them.

Now what do we see in a lot of the cha cha routines?

I dance, albeit not in ballroom, and you absolutely have to seek outside training in hip hop now for marketability. A lot of the older dancers are struggling with the younger teachers who are choreographing because they have zero training in hip hop.

Edited November 21, 2018 by PikaScrewChu

[vdw84]

2 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

I dance, albeit not in ballroom, and you absolutely have to seek outside training in hip hop now for marketability. A lot of the older dancers are struggling with the younger teachers who are choreographing because they have zero training in hip hop.

Its so weird to me how anyone can train in hiphop. I always consider hiphop freestyle and its something that comes natural to u or not, its nothing something that can be taught but obviously u can teach it and u can honestly tell the ones who were taught hiphop vs the ones who just know it naturally.

2 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

There have been shadow choreographers since the beginning of the show.  100%  There was a lot of drama over Cheryl not choreographing her early numbers and getting help.  Purists hated it.  I'm sure there were others.  She's been on the show since S2.  Also just as an aside, I'm not saying she gets help now. I have no idea if Cheryl does or she doesn't. I just remember she used to have people from her ballroom days help with her show routines in the early days and some people were upset about it.  

I wonder how many of whitney dances this season were really her own, she has been known to use ghost choreographers alot. I almost cringed when she was doing her bts interview with krystin burtt and she told whitny how amazing her choreography was this season, I was like but how much of it was hers??

[spanana]

I'm generally going to give the pros the benefit of the doubt on choreography unless we hear otherwise.  Just because somebody got help once doesn't mean they always did...see Cheryl.  And just in general, it does somewhat bother me that the ones generally being questioned over their legitimacy are the female pros and almost never the male pros.  It's like sometimes nobody would ever think to assume the males don't do their own choreography, but the females are constantly questioned.  FWIW, I don't care if somebody doesn't do their own choreography.  It's smart to get help if needed.  Just don't take credit for others work and if you are agreeing to help with choreo under the table, meaning you now the show isn't going to publicly give you credit, you need to own that.

Quote

Its so weird to me how anyone can train in hiphop. I always consider hiphop freestyle and its something that comes natural to u or not, its nothing something that can be taught but obviously u can teach it and u can honestly tell the ones who were taught hiphop vs the ones who just know it naturally.

I know what you mean in that hip hop training certainly isn't the same as ballroom or ballet training.  There aren't rules in the same way.  But I think like anything else, training in hip hop is just practice.  The more you do it, and the more you take classes, the better you get.  The ones that often need hip hop training to an extent are those that are trained in other dance styles because I think if you are used to dancing with technique and using your body in a certain way, it's hard to suddenly let yourself go and dance in a way that goes against everything you have previously learned.  

I know packages and storylines on this show are edited, but I remember in S16 the whole package around Val doing hip hop for the first time.  Now he's done it plenty and gotten better of it, but the whole story was about how it was his first time actually doing hip hop and he had one of Zendaya's old teachers teaching him and I think Z's people choreographed the dance too.  And of course Val was set up to be nervous since it wasn't his style and blah blah.  And Val does have a natural groove and over the years has gotten better at it the more experience he's gotten.

[vdw84]

17 minutes ago, spanana said:

I know packages and storylines on this show are edited, but I remember in S16 the whole package around Val doing hip hop for the first time.  Now he's done it plenty and gotten better of it, but the whole story was about how it was his first time actually doing hip hop and he had one of Zendaya's old teachers teaching him and I think Z's people choreographed the dance too.  And of course Val was set up to be nervous since it wasn't his style and blah blah.  And Val does have a natural groove and over the years has gotten better at it the more experience he's gotten.

Val has always had a love for hiphop as him being from New York but clearly he was no dancer of it until his season with Zendaya who was a hiphop girl had to show him how to get his body to groove to it and I feel like he has gotten better since then. He def. better at hiphop than maks. I use to cringe everytime I see maks doing hiphop, lol. He just never set in the pocket enough and had that loose groove u look for in hiphop, nor could he pull off the stank face.

This Video right here, was the best I have seen of Val doing hip hop. He was so sexy and just perfect. He had the flavor for sure. I was like go ahead Val.

H

[realdancemom]

16 hours ago, spanana said:

I doubt they would ever let us vote for who we want to go home because there is too negative a connotation to that.  I think it's a little softer a blow for celebs and their egos just to say you didn't get as many votes as the other celebs to stay.  It's another entirely to tell a celeb that they are going home because the majority of the audience voted for them to leave, whether for dancing or because they just don't like them.  It's basically putting them all under spotlights and then at the end pointing at one couple and telling them the audience doesn't like them or likes everyone else better.  I'm not sure you would get celebs to sign on at all in that setting.

I agree with this and I noticed that I agree with a lot of your posts this season.  Nigel from SYTYCD basically said the same thing when some viewers asked.  Also, I don't trust viewers.  They would probably vote to eliminate a really good dancer just to kick them off so that their favorite could have a better chance of winning.

I like the idea of judges' scoring counting for more or letting voters vote from the bottom two or three scorers.  I think the latter idea would have had Joe and Bobby leave sooner.  However, the viewers would still get the sense that their votes matter.

[PikaScrewChu]

14 hours ago, vdw84 said:

Its so weird to me how anyone can train in hiphop. I always consider hiphop freestyle and its something that comes natural to u or not, its nothing something that can be taught but obviously u can teach it and u can honestly tell the ones who were taught hiphop vs the ones who just know it naturally.

Hip hop is interesting because it's evolved from a folklore dance to a dance with set moves, set beats to dance to, and definitions of different styles. Each culture has their own interpretation of hip hop as well. I trained at a Chinese studio for about a year and there are moves that you don't see in Western hip hop. Arab hip hop has some resemblance to western hip hop but also borrows heavily from traditional Arab dances (depending on the country/region). I've taken classes from instructors in the Middle East just for fun to see differences.

You see this also with belly dance as well. Belly dance is a name for a group of folklore dances. You can tell who grew up with it versus those who were trained. Yet we don't say that belly dance either comes naturally or doesn't. ;) I think hip hop is probably going to see the same progression that belly dance did. We will see!

[Maya S]

On 11/20/2018 at 12:28 PM, realdancemom said:

From this season:

SYTYCD contestants:

Artem, Sasha, Brandon, Alan, Witney, Lindsay, Jenna

 

Non-SYTYCD contestants:

Cheryl, Sharna, Emma, Gleb, Keo

 

In addition, Haley from the troupe is from the show.  Just based off this season, certain audience members don't care about the quality of pros since they voted for Joe and Bobby.  That means they don't care about dance technique or whether dances follow the assigned style.

Sasha was never a contestant on SYTYCD.  Brandon auditioned but got cut in Vegas.  

[realdancemom]

4 minutes ago, Maya S said:

Sasha was never a contestant on SYTYCD.  Brandon auditioned but got cut in Vegas.  

Oops, I meant to put Sasha with the non-SYTYCD contestants.  Also, I don't have Val as non-SYTYCD but that's because the original post mentioned that he wasn't.

You're right that Brandon didn't make it on the show.  He auditioned after his mission.  Just from watching his audition clips and watching him live, you can tell that his dancing went down because of being gone for two years.  I just put him in that category because he basically has the same training/teachers as the other Utah pros even though some stayed at Center Stage while other went to The Vibe.

[Emily-D]

17 hours ago, vdw84 said:

Its so weird to me how anyone can train in hiphop. I always consider hiphop freestyle and its something that comes natural to u or not, its nothing something that can be taught but obviously u can teach it and u can honestly tell the ones who were taught hiphop vs the ones who just know it naturally.

I wonder how many of whitney dances this season were really her own, she has been known to use ghost choreographers alot. I almost cringed when she was doing her bts interview with krystin burtt and she told whitny how amazing her choreography was this season, I was like but how much of it was hers??

I’ll never forget when Witney got nominated for an Emmy for three of her dances with Alfonso which she didn’t even choreograph! She was supposed to submit the dances as a “collaboration” with her ghost choreographer but she forgot to put his name on the official Emmy submission, which meant he didn’t get nominated for his own work! If that ever happened to me...I think it’s best we leave it at that LOL.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Emily-D

[RomanKat]

1 hour ago, Emily-D said:

pI’ll never forget when Witney got nominated for an Emmy for three of her dances with Alfonso which she didn’t even choreograph! She forgot to put her ghost choreographer on the Emmy submission, which meant he didn’t get nominated for his own work! If that ever happened to me...I think it’s best we leave it at that LOL.

She got help, but she also actively participated in choreographing the pieces.  Under Emmy rules regarding credits, the ghost wasn't even eligible for a nomination.  Moreover, said ghost had agreed to help choreograph two of the three nominated pieces without credit, and was personally paid out-of-pocket by Witney.  It was the ghost who broke industry protocol by going public after nominations were announced.  I remember other choreographers, including Spencer Liff who was nominated for SYTYCD that year, taking Witney's side.  Industry practices concerning ghosts may not seem fair to outsiders, but it's what choreographers implicitly agree to when they ghost.

Edited November 22, 2018 by RomanKat

[kitcloudkicker]

2 minutes ago, RomanKat said:

She got help, but she also actively participated in choreographing the pieces.  Under Emmy rules regarding credits, the ghost wasn't even eligible for a nomination.  Moreover, said ghost had agreed to help choreograph two of the three nominated pieces without credit, and was personally paid out-of-pocket by Witney.  It was the ghost who broke industry protocol by going public after nominations were announced.  I remember other choreographers, including Spencer Liff who was nominated for SYTYCD that year, taking Witney's side.  Industry practices concerning ghosts may not seem fair to outsiders, but it's what ghosts implicitly agree to when working within the industy.

Additionally, Alan Salazar (the ghost) has also frequently ghosted for at least Lindsay, Val, and “choreography genius” Mark Ballas. Which I say not to “call them out” but that they even the best can sometimes need to call in help, and none of them get much shit for it. 

Yes it sucks that Witney wasn’t able to submit it as a collaboration but it doesn’t erase her contribution, and a lot of the crap she’s gotten since has been pretty overblown.

[spanana]

24 minutes ago, Emily-D said:

I’ll never forget when Witney got nominated for an Emmy for three of her dances with Alfonso which she didn’t even choreograph! She was supposed to submit the dances as a “collaboration” with her ghost choreographer but she forgot to put his name on the official Emmy submission, which meant he didn’t get nominated for his own work! If that ever happened to me...I think it’s best we leave it at that LOL.

 

See, I think there was more to the story than that and I actually thought that Alan Salazar guy was a bit shady honestly. Or in at least how he came at Witney publicly. If I remember correctly, Witney's mother and maybe someone else posted a defense of Witney saying that Alan S. was just assisting her and it was primarily Witney's choreography.  So I also think it becomes a subjective he said, she said game of how much someone contributed to something and I'm not going to blindly assume Alan was telling the truth and Witney wasn't, or even vice versa.  I think it's more likely they were both somewhat at fault or didn't communicate with each other properly about what was happening.

I also think if you are agreeing to walk into DWTS as a ghost choreographer, since it had to be under the table for the show, you are also walking into it knowing that you aren't going to get the credit and you either have to be okay with that or not walk into those situations.  I know the dance business is tough and money is money so many choreographers will take such jobs for the paycheck, but you don't take an undercover gig and then expect to get all the glory if it goes viral.  Though the Emmy situation is a bit different since that is about getting awarded for said choreo.

ETA: Others above remembered it better than me in terms of rules about not being able to submit ghost names for Emmy consideration.  I also in retrospect do remember the Spencer Liff comment which was saying if you choose to take ghost jobs like that then you give up any right to credit basically, much as it sucks.

Edited November 22, 2018 by spanana

[spanana]

35 minutes ago, kitcloudkicker said:

Additionally, Alan Salazar (the ghost) has also frequently ghosted for at least Lindsay, Val, and “choreography genius” Mark Ballas. Which I say not to “call them out” but that they even the best can sometimes need to call in help, and none of them get much shit for it. 

Yes it sucks that Witney wasn’t able to submit it as a collaboration but it doesn’t erase her contribution, and a lot of the crap she’s gotten since has been pretty overblown.

I do think Witney got more crap for it solely because she got the Emmy nominations in one of her first seasons, whereas Val nor Lindsay have ever gotten Emmy noms.  Mark has but nobody would ever question a Mark nom. The Witney stuff happened because of Alan Salazar's public display and again, I do think there was a bit of sexism from fans of the she's young and won in one of her first seasons and then got the Emmy noms on top of that. There was a whiff of she's not talented enough to have actually had a role in her own successful choreography.

Quote

 I agree with this and I noticed that I agree with a lot of your posts this season.  Nigel from SYTYCD basically said the same thing when some viewers asked.  Also, I don't trust viewers.  They would probably vote to eliminate a really good dancer just to kick them off so that their favorite could have a better chance of winning.

Thank you!  But yes, there is something vaguely picking teams in gym class mentality about it all.  Where the not so popular kids or not athletic kids just stand there and get humiliated.  I also think as you alluded to, it also opens it up to bigger machinations where I could see two fanbases banding together to try and eliminate a particular dancer, not because they are bad, but because they stand in faves way.  It opens it up for a lot of manipulation from fans.  At least now when people are supposed to vote for their faves, they are too busy voting for their actual faves as a means of saving them.  There is no way other than social media attacks to go after those they don't like.

ETA: Or worse, can you imagine if any of the celebs actively rallied their fans to vote someone off? I imagine there would have to be some show rules like that but in a season like this past one, Bobby would probably have his fans mobilized each week to take out one of his competitors.

Edited November 22, 2018 by spanana

[vdw84]

1 hour ago, kitcloudkicker said:

Additionally, Alan Salazar (the ghost) has also frequently ghosted for at least Lindsay, Val, and “choreography genius” Mark Ballas. Which I say not to “call them out” but that they even the best can sometimes need to call in help, and none of them get much shit for it. 

Yes it sucks that Witney wasn’t able to submit it as a collaboration but it doesn’t erase her contribution, and a lot of the crap she’s gotten since has been pretty overblown.

I personally don't care who u r, if u didnt choreograph a piece fully urself then u don't need to take full credit and tbh, I wouldnt want to take full credit if I knew it wasnt all me. If I use a choreographer rather its collab or the person fully choreographing my me I would want it to be known for my own integrity and respect. No wonder dwts pros doesnt get as many emmys as  the choreographers sytycd because most of the choreography isnt by the original pro. I mean don't u find it weird Lindsay didnt get nod for any of her work Jordan??

[kitcloudkicker]

30 minutes ago, vdw84 said:

I personally don't care who u r, if u didnt choreograph a piece fully urself then u don't need to take full credit and tbh, I wouldnt want to take full credit if I knew it wasnt all me. If I use a choreographer rather its collab or the person fully choreographing my me I would want it to be known for my own integrity and respect. No wonder dwts pros doesnt get as many emmys as  the choreographers sytycd because most of the choreography isnt by the original pro. I mean don't u find it weird Lindsay didnt get nod for any of her work Jordan??

 

Basically, it sounds odd to the non-industry person and it’s somewhat complicated rules, but Witney wasn’t ALLOWED to submit for the Emmys with Alan’s name attached, and Alan would have known that before he agreed to help her.

Also, he likely helped Lindsey with several of her Jordan dances as well. (Along with Wanya and Alek)

 

 

He helped Mark with the Paige freestyle 

 

 

And Val with several Normani dances

 

And Sharna with Noah

 

Likely if he could be credited it would be a co-choreography credit. I remember Witney made sure to mention him. It’s not that uncommon, and it seems like the industry is fighting to change the rules on who’s allowed to get credit, but thems the rules right now. 

[vdw84]

2 hours ago, kitcloudkicker said:

 

Basically, it sounds odd to the non-industry person and it’s somewhat complicated rules, but Witney wasn’t ALLOWED to submit for the Emmys with Alan’s name attached, and Alan would have known that before he agreed to help her.

Also, he likely helped Lindsey with several of her Jordan dances as well. (Along with Wanya and Alek)

 

 

He helped Mark with the Paige freestyle 

 

 

And Val with several Normani dances

 

And Sharna with Noah

 

Likely if he could be credited it would be a co-choreography credit. I remember Witney made sure to mention him. It’s not that uncommon, and it seems like the industry is fighting to change the rules on who’s allowed to get credit, but thems the rules right now. 

Yeah, I heard about Alan choreographing alot for the pros, this is why I cringe whenever certain pros get praised for their choreography when they really didnt even do it or at the most got help with it. Its only handful I know for sure do their own choreography because they admitted it and that was Allison. Allison said she did all her choreography her seasons, I think Emma and Sasha do their own choreography. Brandon admitted this season that he does all his choreography for dwts and juniors. I thought Sharna did all her choreography but apparently not. Even the great mark ballas has gotten help. When Dmitry was on, he did all of his choreography as well as to why he is pro. one of the main choreographers for sytycd.

 

I can see pro maybe getting outside help for style they r familiar with but when its their own genre ballroom, I have to sideeye. 

[spanana]

11 hours ago, vdw84 said:

I personally don't care who u r, if u didnt choreograph a piece fully urself then u don't need to take full credit and tbh, I wouldnt want to take full credit if I knew it wasnt all me. If I use a choreographer rather its collab or the person fully choreographing my me I would want it to be known for my own integrity and respect. No wonder dwts pros doesnt get as many emmys as  the choreographers sytycd because most of the choreography isnt by the original pro. I mean don't u find it weird Lindsay didnt get nod for any of her work Jordan??

I don’t think not doing their own choreography is the reason Dwts no longer gets Emmy noms.  I think it rarely gets Emmy noms because like everything else, there is a certain bias in the industry towards DWTS.  DWTS has been seen as an immensely popular show but as a display of dance and artistry, industry insiders don’t give it the same respect as a SYTYCD in terms of art.  I just think industry insiders that vote don’t see DWTS routines as real art.

[BeeBop88]

I was watching Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade today and saw Tony!!! He was dancing with the Fred Astaire Studios. Was front and center and he still has the moves. Wonder how long it will be before DWM is in the parade with Maks/Peta and Val/Jenna front and center. Unfortunately I also saw Mackenzie Z., who was croaking out a song. Man, they are really going all out to make her happen. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by BeeBop88

[BeeBop88]

12 hours ago, kitcloudkicker said:

 

Basically, it sounds odd to the non-industry person and it’s somewhat complicated rules, but Witney wasn’t ALLOWED to submit for the Emmys with Alan’s name attached, and Alan would have known that before he agreed to help her.

Also, he likely helped Lindsey with several of her Jordan dances as well. (Along with Wanya and Alek)

 

 

He helped Mark with the Paige freestyle 

 

 

And Val with several Normani dances

 

And Sharna with Noah

 

Likely if he could be credited it would be a co-choreography credit. I remember Witney made sure to mention him. It’s not that uncommon, and it seems like the industry is fighting to change the rules on who’s allowed to get credit, but thems the rules right now. 

I read a while back when there was choreography discussion, that because Alan and other ghost choreographers are not employed by DWTS, that the ghosts could not be mentioned on the show. Don't know how true that is, but it kind of makes sense in a way. I notice that I have never seen any of the dance pros mention the ghost choreographers on their social media accounts.  I know Sharna did it with Jules a week ago. But it is pretty non-existent for the most part. I don't know if DWTS just won't let them do it or what the reason is. But then again, Sharna mentioned Jules, so who knows. I realize that a pro dancer that is good at dance, may not be that good doing choreography. You would think it would all mesh together, but don't really know that much about dance or choreography to really know.

[Toonces464]

3 hours ago, BeeBop88 said:

I was watching Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade today and saw Tony!!! He was dancing with the Fred Astaire Studios. Was front and center and he still has the moves. Wonder how long it will be before DWM is in the parade with Maks/Peta and Val/Jenna front and center. Unfortunately I also saw Mackenzie Z., who was croaking out a song. Man, they are really going all out to make her happen. 

Awww I was looking for him and missed him. I would still love to know what made him give up a partnership in a dance studio to go do basically the same thing at another studio as a non-partner.

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, Toonces464 said:

Awww I was looking for him and missed him. I would still love to know what made him give up a partnership in a dance studio to go do basically the same thing at another studio as a non-partner.

His roots are in the Fred Astaire Dance Studio.  It's where he learned to dance and where he taught dancing for many years.  He also served on one of their national boards, if I remember correctly.

[HaaCHOO]

11 hours ago, BeeBop88 said:

Unfortunately I also saw Mackenzie Z., who was croaking out a song. Man, they are really going all out to make her happen. 

This only gets sadder and sadder for her.  Once these kids (or MOMS) get a taste of showbiz and the pay rates, they just can't see going back to a "regular life."  Sad.  And how long will Maddie's "career" last?    (I chuckled at "croaking out a song.")     I know they're just kids.

[Toonces464]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

His roots are in the Fred Astaire Dance Studio.  It's where he learned to dance and where he taught dancing for many years.  He also served on one of their national boards, if I remember correctly.

Oh I know, but he was a partner in DWM for like 8 years.....and then suddenly he just gave up that partnership to go teach at Fred Astaire?

[HappyDancex2]

Have Alexis and Alan broken up yet?!  Did anyone set the egg timer.

[vdw84]

1 hour ago, HappyDancex2 said:

Have Alexis and Alan broken up yet?!  Did anyone set the egg timer.

I heard that her supposedly ex boyfriend was back following her again, I don't know how true this is because I dont follow Alexis nor do I know anything about her boyfriend and who he is. Since the show is over I have lost complete interest in her, so I personally dont even care whats up with Alan and her, Im just glad we dont have to suffer from it every week on tv.

[BeeBop88]

14 hours ago, HappyDancex2 said:

Have Alexis and Alan broken up yet?!  Did anyone set the egg timer.

Maybe someone should ask him that on his social media accounts. See if he answers. I have a feeling that Alan will ignore it. 

I am just really surprised that Alexis didn't go on tour. I was sure she would. I mean, what else has she got going for her? I guess she will just keep posting pics of her tits and ass all over IG.  Somehow that is being a social media influencer. She probably figures that the Kardashian sisters do it, so maybe she thinks that she will find the pot of gold by posting naked pics of herself, so everyone in the world can see them. Whatever floats one's boat, I guess.

[truthaboutluv]

20 minutes ago, BeeBop88 said:

I am just really surprised that Alexis didn't go on tour. I was sure she would. I mean, what else has she got going for her? I guess she will just keep posting pics of her tits and ass all over IG.  Somehow that is being a social media influencer. She probably figures that the Kardashian sisters do it, so maybe she thinks that she will find the pot of gold by posting naked pics of herself, so everyone in the world can see them. Whatever floats one's boat, I guess.

Alexis did seem to hint that she might do the tour earlier during the season, so I was surprised when she wasn't named. I assume that's because something came up. As for her not having anything else going on (and I do get the impression that aside from Influencer, Alexis' job is modeling) and posting her pics of tits and ass - in fairness, whatever one's opinion of them, have gotten her 12 million followers on Instagram. So she may not be Kardashian famous but she's probably doing well enough for herself. 

What makes a person a successful influencer is one, having a massive social media following and having that following engaged enough to buy the stuff they push. I'd say 12 million puts Alexis in that category. Alan was on SYTYCD and DWTS and can still barely push 250,000 followers and Milo only just hit 1 million and he was in a Disney movie. As for the saga with her Alan, today should be very telling, since it's her birthday. Let's see if they even celebrate together - my money is on no. At best Alan might send some generic Happy Birthday message. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[suebee12]

9 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

As for the saga with her Alan, today should be very telling, since it's her birthday. Let's see if they even celebrate together - my money is on no. At best Alan might send some generic Happy Birthday message. 

Well, he did post a birthday greeting on Instagram .......

[Dancelove]

Cute Couple... at least for the tour. She doesn't have to be on the tour to promote it with pics like this.  Not saying they're in Kym and Robert's category but there is no reason not to believe they're together for now. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Dancelove

[Dancelove]

On 11/22/2018 at 11:52 PM, Toonces464 said:

Oh I know, but he was a partner in DWM for like 8 years.....and then suddenly he just gave up that partnership to go teach at Fred Astaire?

Tony was a major partner with Fred Astaire before DWM  I suspect he's gone back to FA in the same capacity. 

[Toonces464]

39 minutes ago, Dancelove said:

Tony was a major partner with Fred Astaire before DWM  I suspect he's gone back to FA in the same capacity. 

Tony was never a partner in Fred Astaire and he's not a partner now. He's the Co-National Dance Director.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Toonces464

[truthaboutluv]

11 hours ago, suebee12 said:

Well, he did post a birthday greeting on Instagram .......

As expected. She spent her birthday dinner with Milo and some friends and looks like she and Milo went to get matching tattoos to celebrate their season of DWTS.

Edited November 24, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[BrainyBlonde]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

As expected. She spent her birthday dinner with Milo and some friends and looks like and Milo went to get matching tattoos to celebrate their season of DWTS.

What's the source for this? Because I am desperately hoping that this isn't true. Their "friendship" is making me very uncomfortable and I hope to God that Camryn is keeping a very close eye on what's going on with the two of them. Milo seems very mature for his age, but at the end of the day he is still an impressionable 17 y/o boy and Alexis is a 21 y/o woman. I still think that the Alexis/Alan romance was completely fake as Alan couldn't have seemed less interested in her these last few weeks. If they didn't see each other on Thanksgiving or her birthday, I think that's a pretty clear sign that there's nothing going on between them.

[truthaboutluv]

18 minutes ago, BrainyBlonde said:

What's the source for this?

Alexis’ Instagram page.

[spanana]

They didn't get matching tattoos.  Alexis got a tattoo of a 27 on her foot.  Milo was there, as were other friends.  He went out to dinner with her and others for her birthday.  I don't see the big deal over 17 year old Milo hanging out with his friend Alexis.  It's like a high school senior hanging out with college kids...which happens all the time.  I do not understand why Alexis is seen as this big bad that is going to corrupt poor innocent Milo.  There is not a hint of romance there.  They see to have more of a big sis/little bro relationship.  I just do not understand the uneasiness considering their ages and the nature of their relationship.  

Milo is also close to Alan and Alan has gone out to do escape rooms with Milo and his friends.  Why is that not a problem?  Is it only because it's male/female?  Is it because people are uneasy with Alexis choice of job and her social media feed?  

As for the Alan/Alexis relationship, I have no idea where it stands but considering it's Thanksgiving week and most US born DWTS pros are with their respective families this week, I wouldn't read too much into Alan not being at her celebration last night.  From what I can tell on social media, Alan is home spending time with his family and even if they are dating, it's certainly too soon for bringing girlfriend home to spend the holiday with the fam.  It would be one thing if Alan was in LA, but he doesn't appear to be.

Also Alexis, as a 21 year old (until yesterday), can post whatever she chooses on her social media.  The woman has agency over her own body and people that don't want to see it can just choose not to look at her social media.  It reminds me of when some lovely instagram people were over on Sky Brown's instagram (Alan's little 10 year old partner from Jrs.) trying to tell her or her parents/guardians that she shouldn't look up to someone like Alexis because she's a bad role model and whoever run Sky's account basically told the people to STFU.  In nicer language.  

Edited November 24, 2018 by spanana

[Bridget]

This seriously made my heart happy. More evidence that Camryn Manheim should write a parenting book ASAP and be given her own show a la “Supernanny” on how to parent. 

Money, privilege and fame aside, at the end of the day, she is still a single mom raising a son.

I scrolled through Milo’s Twitter page and have seen people from morning talk shows and other media outlets (who worked with Milo during post-season press) send a shout out to his mom for “doing a great job.” 

 

I can’t upload the photo of the charger onto this site via my phone, but the chargers are gold colored and are all engraved. The mirrorball is in the background, along with the DWTS logo to include “season 27” and reads:

Thank you for being a part of my most memorable year!

xo Milo

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiZyurQ7-3eAhXfHjQIHWfEBKUQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.etonline.com%2Fdwts-milo-manheim-reveals-the-sweet-gift-he-gave-to-cast-and-crew-on-finale-day-exclusive-114233&psig=AOvVaw0HOB4LDWvR6GP3wlfJd2AV&ust=1543177856231366

ET caught up with the 17-year-old actor following Monday night's finale, where he and his pro partner, Witney Carson, revealed the sweet gifts he gave everyone on set.

"In this business, we are always running around. We have no time to charge our phones, so I always find that my phone is dead," Milo told ET's Katie Krause. "So, I got everyone little, like, portable chargers, and they say, 'Thank you for making this the most memorable year.' We got, like, 300 chargers."

"[It's] so sweet," added Witney, who said Milo got one for "every single person that you see walking around" the ballroom, including the cast, crew and makeup department.