S02.E08: International Assassin

[DarkRaichu]

I like this episode.  Several things I noticed:

1.  I liked how things tied together.  In one of the Oct 14 flashbacks in season 1 you could briefly see Patti on Jeorpardy on 1 of the TV screens.

 

2. I agree that the hotel is a version of limbo / purgatory or an in-between space before permanent death.  So when Kevin killed all of these people he basically helped them to move on... IMHO

Poor Virgil is now stuck in Limbo Hotel

 

3. In his closet Kevin saw a Maple officer uniform, a priest robe, and a suit.  There was a police officer with black bag on his face going to be interrogated with Truth machine (as Kevin left).  Also, there was a priest going up the elevator as Kevin going back to his room after Virgil turned.  I believe whatever outfit he chose Kevin would have ended meeting with fake!Patti

 

4. Have we seen the guy with the noose prior to this episode?

 

5. I want a body like JT's, but I do not want to give up bacons :P

 

ETA: Was this episode played out of order?  It looked nothing like the preview

Edited November 23, 2015 by DarkRaichu

[ToastnBacon]

 

 Yes, everything is comprised of matter, etc.  This story doesn't seem to be interested in science to any letter of the law.  I actually don't think it's all that interested in religion either but rather that -- in the universe of the show -- there is an unseen force.  

That is the only way the show is working for me. The characters on the show are dealing with an unseen, unknowable force and we are just watching them cope with it.

 

Anyway, I read the lyrics two weeks ago and watched last night with increasing delight.  It's pretty clear that I think the girls are coming back at the end of the season though, at least one of them.  The one Virgil sacrificed himself for and he killed one of Regina's "give her back to me" birds, that was trapped in there with him.   I think he did know not to drink the water.   I could just be wrong, but I think that Jarden will see a few arrivals.  

 

Kevin literally emerged from the dirt, so no I don't think anyone is being converted to literal peas and carrots, but I do think someone is coming back who isn't named Kevin.  Someone very loved.   

 

I'm genuinely sorry other people aren't having as much fun with this story as I am, but I get it.  There's no right or wrong way to receive a story and if it's not working for some, that's completely valid and understandable as an experience.  

 

My husband and I actually had kind of long talk about how the guys from Lost were finally in their element.  Freed from last year's source material they had a chance to take the elements from that (which appeared to just be a novel written as response to the Left Behind series, but I wouldn't know , as I only read a synopsis) and ABC's "doesn't matter about quality, number and eyeballs on the screen are all that count" commercial, network television that demands more for the sake of more, without an eye towards quality.   HBO being subscription dependent makes those "you have to have 20 episodes a years and act breaks designed for slotting in commercials" constrictions a thing of their past.  

 

I'm kind of psyched to see what they do with it.  I don't think Lost ended up sucking and making no sense because the writers were bad.  I think it ended up senseless and bizarre because ABC held them prisoner to a commercial success and only after the numbers fell off a cliff did they consent to let them wrap it up.   Success on network TV is such a double-edged sword, as people like Sorkin and Amy Sherman-Pallidino know, networks can and do just hand the reins over to someone else to finish a story.  So talk about being trapped in purgatory.   You can get out at the end of a contract, but the baby you've been raising might be handed over to the foster parents from hell. 

 

And again, I may just be wrong and they really do suck and two weeks from now I'll just hurl shit at the TV (soft things, I have nice TVs) and curse the very names of Lindeoff and Cuse (again, some more) with an added emphatic gesture or two.

You said a lot of things in here, but I agree with most of your analysis.

I'm having fun with the show, but last night they got a little too specific with the unseen force.

I'm writing it off as weak poison and a hallucination.

[stillshimpy]

I'm writing it off as weak poison and a hallucination.

 

John's son was the person who saw Kevin emerge from the dirt.  Hallucinations don't help you survive being buried alive.  

 

At least, I don't think they do.  

 

I'm not volunteering to find out either with poison, dirt, or hallucinations.  However, if someone can come up with a way for me to replicate it all with green smoothie and get tangled up in a down comforter, I'd be willing to give that a go.  

 

Depending on the smoothie, that is. 

[ToastnBacon]

At one point when Kevin was walking down the hotel hallway, he passed a police officer with a bag over his head being led in the opposite direction. Was that a Mapleton PD uniform? I'm wondering if that was an alternate reality being played out, where Kevin had chosen his police uniform to wear instead of the assassin suit.

It was a Geronimo PD uniform and the name tag was Jackson. There was also an Apollo candy bar hanging out of the jacket pocket.

Just joking.

I scrutinized every little detail in Lost looking for clues, and while it was fun, I ended up being a chump for doing so.

I'll not be led on another snipe hunt.

As for me,

I'll let the mystery be.

[NorthstarATL]

The episode was worth it if we never have to see/hear Patty again. But I am not holding my breath.

[ToastnBacon]

John's son was the person who saw Kevin emerge from the dirt.  Hallucinations don't help you survive being buried alive.  

 

At least, I don't think they do.  

 

I'm not volunteering to find out either with poison, dirt, or hallucinations.  However, if someone can come up with a way for me to replicate it all with green smoothie and get tangled up in a down comforter, I'd be willing to give that a go.  

 

Depending on the smoothie, that is.

Loose dirt allowed air to filter in and and John's son put him in a box that had a pocket of air. Kevin's respiration and metabolism were slowed by the weak poison.

But if you insist I suppose you could go with the Rankin and Bass explanation, "there must have been some magic in that old silk hat they found. Cause when they put it on his head, he began to dance around."

[stretch]

I feel like I want to quote all of stillshimpy's posts and just add an emphatic, "YES".

 

I'm enjoying this show so very much, and it pains me to see/hear that people are frustrated or not getting it. Believe me, I understand post-traumatic-LOST-syndrome, but, as was said upthread, that was a (mostly) matter of the writers getting tied in knots by the network and the framework of network tv. Sometimes you just need to let art wash over you.

 

Episode thoughts:

 

1. The Get Well card was a clue to the well, but also literal: Kevin was dead, and he needed to take care of Patti in order to "get well".

 

2. The security guard's "Congratulations" during Kevin's pat down made me laugh out loud.

 

3. The bird bit also had many layers. Birds are a common part of afterlife/underworld myths, and are often depicted as guides to the afterlife.

[stillshimpy]

Loose dirt allowed air to filter in and and John's son put him in a box that had a pocket of air.

 

Dude, you saw a box?  

 

That would be a substantial shoebox indeed.  

 

ETA:  

2. The security guard's "Congratulations" during Kevin's pat down made me laugh out loud.

 

Justin Theroux's facial expression was so funny we rewound immediately to watch it again.  I got to tell my husband the legend of the sweatpants from last season (I honestly never noticed and have never gone back to take a gander, because I'm not actually interested in what he's packing) and how the show clearly decided to let JT go a bit Meta with his expression.  "Oh swell, this again.  Yes, I said swell. Jeez."  

 

Birds are a common part of afterlife/underworld myths, and are often depicted as guides to the afterlife.

 

And are said to bring messages from the dead.  In particular sparrows.   

 

Also, thank you, stretch.  Nice to have company on the monkey bars, where we can hang upside for a bit. 

Edited November 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Cardie]

As to the water being like the pomegranate seeds from the Persephone myth​. I also saw it as being like the waters of Lethe, making people forget their past lives on Earth and not realize their purgatorial location. But many underworld myths say you're stuck if you eat or drink anything while you're visiting.

 

I realize many viewers prefer their stories without supernatural mumbo-jumbo but there's no way this works with just empirical explanations. Send John to burn down my house, if you wish, but here are miracles--or at least magic--in Miracle and always have been, way back in indigenous times (or when it was the Jarden of Eden USA).

[izabella]

The episode was worth it if we never have to see/hear Patty again. But I am not holding my breath.

 

The only positive thing I can manage to get from this episode is that Kevin didn't wuss out in the end and killed Patti.  If she's not gone now and we have to keep seeing her, I might not be able to keep watching.  I hated her in the first season, I hate her more now, and this episode didn't make me hate seeing her any less. 

I realize many viewers prefer their stories without supernatural mumbo-jumbo but there's no way this works with just empirical explanations. Send John to burn down my house, if you wish, but here are miracles--or at least magic--in Miracle and always have been, way back in indigenous times (or when it was the Jarden of Eden USA).

 

Count me among those who hate this supernatural crap.  I can live with the Departure and people not knowing what caused it or what it's about, and I can live with there being no definitive answer about that.  There can be a great show about the fallout and what the remaining people believe and how they react.  This stuff with Kevin seeing Patti and birds coming back from the dead and Kevin coming back from drinking poison and his little journey within purgatory and that indigenous woman?  No, just no.  It's not necessary for a good story, and it actually ruins the story for me. 

Edited November 23, 2015 by izabella

[Primetimer]

Kevin tries to fulfill his purpose in the afterlife in an adventurous episode of The Leftovers.

Read the story

[ToastnBacon]

Dude, you saw a box?  

 

That would be a substantial shoebox indeed.  

 

It looked like a shipping carton for Dharma Initiative ranch dressing.

[stillshimpy]

It looked like a shipping carton for Dharma Initiative ranch dressing.

 

You broke into the writer's room bushel, didn't you ToastnBacon?  

 

 

 

realize many viewers prefer their stories without supernatural mumbo-jumbo but there's no way this works with just empirical explanations. Send John to burn down my house, if you wish, but here are miracles--or at least magic--in Miracle and always have been, way back in indigenous times (or when it was the Jarden of Eden USA).

 

They certainly have definitively taken it in that direction this season.  Even last season it was always implied because the world had clearly been searching for every kind of answer.   Also, a couple of things with the unseen characters and all the shit with the dogs  really was unlikely to have anything other than "a wizard, alien or god did it" at the root.  The thing with the dogs is where I empathize deeply with the "cut the cutesy shit and tell me a story about people I can relate to" set....that bastard who ran around killing dogs last year for no discernible reason made me want to "Numfar! Do the dance of rage!" all over the place...so glad that is gone-baby-gone this year. 

 

One thing I wanted to mention is that the actress who plays Patty is entirely fearless and seemingly without any kind of vanity.  When the highly polished Purgatory version of the GR was recast as a political spin crew, I truly expected a nicely made-up, nicely styled version of Patty because Ann Dowd is perfectly capable of being buffed up and prettied-up.   I expected airbrushed, pore erasing type of makeup and straightened hair.   I don't know why I did, but I just did expect the "packaged for political approval" version.  

 

I was sort of fascinated that they actually seemed to make an effort to approximate that, while purposefully missing entirely.  Unflattering shade of lipstick.  Hair in desperate need of a stylist.  Politician in Purgatory Patty barely had any polish.  It was a really interesting choice because it was jarring in its own way.  "Wait, no! That's all wrong! ....Admittedly I'm thinking this about a politician...in a whacked out Afterlife Radisson.  Play through." 

Edited November 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[shapeshifter]

Kevin's dad, via the world's wackiest walkie-talkie (I was dying laughing at the aboriginals in the background putting out the fire on the bed) , told Kevin he had to take Patti to the Well. This was the point of the "Get Well" card that Kevin's father had delivered to him. So are you with me? The blank Get Well card was actually Kevin's father instructing him to Get to the Well in ....Jarden.

I missed that connection between the card and the well. Thanks!

Virgil, as the lost soul -- having partaken of the (water) of the dead and now forever damned...

Real life Virgil self-inflicted a fatal gun shot to the head, so that makes sense.

[DarkRaichu]

Count me among those who hate this supernatural crap.  I can live with the Departure and people not knowing what caused it or what it's about, and I can live with there being no definitive answer about that.  There can be a great show about the fallout and what the remaining people believe and how they react.  This stuff with Kevin seeing Patti and birds coming back from the dead and Kevin coming back from drinking poison and his little journey within purgatory and that indigenous woman?  No, just no.  It's not necessary for a good story, and it actually ruins the story for me. 

 

But how would you explain Holy Wayne and his "magical" hugs in season 1?  How could anyone take away pains with just 1 hug???  The power was real as he hugged and "healed" so many people, including public figures, for fees.

[izabella]

But how would you explain Holy Wayne and his "magical" hugs in season 1?  How could anyone take away pains with just 1 hug???  The power was real as he hugged and "healed" so many people, including public figures, for fees.

 

Shyster?  Taking advantage of people's pain?

 

Those people believed Holy Wayne, and that can have a placebo effect.  But there's no evidence that his "magic" was at all real.  Nora paid him for a hug, and she's still in pain.

[DarkRaichu]

Shyster?  Taking advantage of people's pain?

 

Those people believed Holy Wayne, and that can have a placebo effect.  But there's no evidence that his "magic" was at all real.  Nora paid him for a hug, and she's still in pain.

 

 

Nora "forgot" the pain for at least several months. It also took traumatic confrontation with Erika (among other things) for Nora to feel that pain again.  HW hugged so many people from different backgrounds, but only 1 hug per person.  If it was all placebo, shouldn't it wear off rather quickly thus requiring more hugs?

[stillshimpy]

Well, there's always been a central flaw in the story, but it's not actually the responsibility of the Lost folks.  The Guilty Remnant thinks that the departures prove there is no meaning to anything.  Nothing matters. Bereft of meaning is all of life! Woe! Woe unto thee! Woe unto me! 

 

Woe particularly unto them because they then proceeded to form a cult and ritualistic behaviors around the nothingness of it all.  Because that's just what people would do, if they believe that there was no meaning to life.  They'd be hellbent on making sure that everyone else believed as they do, because their beliefs are that important to them.   The logic meter was on prozac for the entirety of the season, I'm sure. 

 

izabella, I totally feel for you on this one.  The central premise of the show would have allowed for a really interesting drama about what we become when something inexplicable happens.  Something so big, so prominent that it touches every connected corner of our reality and it changes the nature of what we know or understand to be possible.  The Leftovers:  The world after a mindfuck, who are we then? 

 

Even with the Departure, joining things three years into it meant that many people had made their peace with it all.  Or whatever sort of peace they could achieve.  That's the story the book and the first season set out to tell and tell it they did.  They even answered the jackass posse of the GR with their mournful dirge about meaninglessness and not allowing anyone else to move past that existential dilemma of "what's it all for? Nothing, I tell you.  Nothing at all."  The Navel-Gazing Remnant, Reeking to High Heaven of smoke and midlife-adolescent-angst.   The answer just happened to be "Fuck it and fuck you.  What matters is living while you have an opportunity to do so, maybe being kind, maybe eating donuts, maybe embracing the beautiful mess of humanity despite the pain of it all."  

 

Then they got renewed and here we are, trying to figure out where to take it AFTER answering the central premise question.  

 

And I get why we're going to hotels in the afterlife and planting birds, defying miracle denying bullies and goat murderers alike because Nora's letter to Kevin answered everything, she tried, she couldn't keep doing this, it hurt too much....and then she was given a child, seemingly from the same place that took all of hers and she felt forgiven.  

 

Without going into too many specifics, anyone who has ever lost anyone to a sudden death situation can relate to that: How long did it take you to stop being afraid all the time, after the active agony was gone....after the initial shock wore off?  When did you become the Altered but Functional You?  (these are rhetorical questions, by the way, it just seemed to be the point of last year).  

 

I'm not really out to say anything here other than sometimes you really are in the mood for American New Wave type storytelling and the "What's it all for, Man? I'm so disillusioned and I feel lied to" of it all that is a part of existence, growth, life for a lot of people.   So sometimes it really is all "bring on the Easy Rider! Let's trip balls in the damned cemetery because it was the weirdest place we could think of to do this!" and sometimes even the biggest story lovers can decide, "Yeah, yeah. Okay.  Narnia.  I get it.  Woo! Magical Wardrobes.  Do you have any wormholes to other planets where the beings will be comprised of gas because that wouldn't get tedious or anything.  Jesus, just tell me a story without the disco balls and flashing lights."

 

I mean, last night had Kevin's dad communicating to him via a hallucinogenic drug called "God's Tongue" via a TV where and it boiled down to "Really, you need to ditch the negative voices in your head, if you're ever going to be happy, Kev-bo." 

 

The story is taking the long and weird way round this season, that's for sure. 

 

ETA: On the subject of Holy Wayne last season and what his hugs were: Even he wasn't sure.  Even he thought he might just be a fraud.  Even if he had some sort of power handed to him from somewhere else, he didn't seem to understand it.   As he was bleeding to death in a toilet stall when Kevin found him, he asked Kevin to help him prove to himself that he was something more than a charlatan out to bilk people.  

 

And whatever was supposed to have happened between them had significance.  Kevin wished for something -- presumably to have his family back -- and he basically got exactly that.  Not in the shape and form it had been, but Nora was leaving him, before she found Wayne's daughter (left there by Tommy) on Kevin's doorstep.  Kevin took her to the parent he trusted to take care of her and it restored something an altered version of something, but still.  

 

So I don't think there there is an absolute answer on "What the hell was that?"  Could it be explained away? Of course! The people seeking him out and paying him were desperate to feel better.  HIs was placebo that passed as the real McCoy, or it was the real deal.  Or it was both and different things for different people.  Wayne was full of shit, and he also sort of wasn't.  

 

But in a story where a significant portion of the population vanished in a way that no one can explain then part of buying a ticket on the ride is that central part question.  "What the hell was that?" and it turns out the story is going to ask that question a lot. 

Edited November 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Cosmocrush]

When Kevin gets to the abandoned, depths-of-fiery hell Jarden, he meets the man on the bridge....who offers tries to hang him (hold on for more fucked up references), so very, very The Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge .  Kevin opts to press on, despite being told he will be changed forever (and it is implied not in a good way) if he kills Patti in that well.  

Impressive reference stillshrimpy. Sometimes I  have trouble remembering what happened two weeks ago on some shows I watch, much less this ancient film/show.  [1962; TZ in 1964]    I guess it plays into something I always tell my teenage nephew: There are no new stories, only rearrangements.

 

 

Even last night with a perfectly moderate and civilized amount of sake in my system I thought, "What the hell?  How high  was everyone in the writer's room when they said "okay guys, we have to create purgatory in a Radisson.....yeah, we totally need weed.  Smokable. Edible.  Maybe by the bushel"....and I'm thinking they went with the bushel for some of that stuff. 

 

[bolding mine]   Or, maybe  they just remembered that cool Sopranos episode where they did the same thing?  Completely different show, different stories, etc. but Tony was in a coma and another dimension.  That's what I thought of immediately.  

 

ETA:  That said, I thought this episode was powerful and amazing - but I credit that to the actors (and the Hitchcocki-ian soundtrack) more than the writing.   JT can really carry a show.     

Edited November 23, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[stillshimpy]

Impressive reference

 

Thank you....

 

Or, maybe  they just remembered that cool Sopranos episode where they did the same thing?  Completely different show, different stories, etc. but Tony was in a coma and another dimension.  That's what I thought of immediately.

 

I've never watched the Sopranos, by the way.  I tried.  Not very hard.  Want to team up for Trivial Pursuit?  Together we will rule the land of Pink Wedge.  

 

(if this isn't abundantly clear, I'm at loose ends today, while I do a bazillion loads of laundy and eat kale) 

 

I seriously have never watched the Sopranos though, so how similar was it?  Do I need to dial back my "Wow, that was wonderfully weird.  I'm impressed!" praise? 

[Cosmocrush]

I seriously have never watched the Sopranos though, so how similar was it?  Do I need to dial back my "Wow, that was wonderfully weird.  I'm impressed!" praise? 

Just the hotel setting really and a few other minor things. More differences than similarities.   I posted a link to Alan Sepinwall's review in the media thread.  He was the go-to print guy for reviews on The Sopranos and I wanted to see what he might say about the similarities.   He not only talks about it but put it in the review title, lol.

 

Review: 'The Leftovers' pays 'Sopranos' homage with wild 'International Assassin'

Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-the-leftovers-pays-sopranos-homage-with-wild-international-assassin#X7y7xl6ty7BC6BTK.99

 

[ToastnBacon]

Thank you....

 

 

I've never watched the Sopranos, by the way.  I tried.  Not very hard.  Want to team up for Trivial Pursuit?  Together we will rule the land of Pink Wedge.  

 

(if this isn't abundantly clear, I'm at loose ends today, while I do a bazillion loads of laundy and eat kale) 

 

I seriously have never watched the Sopranos though, so how similar was it?  Do I need to dial back my "Wow, that was wonderfully weird.  I'm impressed!" praise?

It had a few similarities to the Sopranos.

I wouldn't accuse them of lifting the idea directly, but it isn't the first time a business hotel has been used as purgatory or a weigh station to the afterlife.

[Jael]

I watched and understood and hated it. Thickly laid references, symbolism up the wazoo, and devil-may-care experimentalism are no substitute for solid, intelligent storytelling.

Wish I would've spent the hour on Jessica Jones instead. Off to remedy.

[Cardie]

much less this ancient film/show.

 

It's based on an even more ancient, very famous short story by Ambrose Bierce that I suppose is no longer taught in high schools. Having read it there and having seen the TZ airing of the French film version in 1964, it tickles me that anyone could consider OaOCB an obscurity lost in the depths of ancient times. I'm feeling like that indigenous cave woman, I tell you.

[Mindymoo]

It's based on an even more ancient, very famous short story by Ambrose Bierce that I suppose is no longer taught in high schools. Having read it there and having seen the TZ airing of the French film version in 1964, it tickles me that anyone could consider OaOCB an obscurity lost in the depths of ancient times. I'm feeling like that indigenous cave woman, I tell you.

Seriously! It's not ancient and it's a beautiful story! They even have the film version on Netflix Instant, since it was on "The Twilight Zone". I love, love, love that short story and short film.

[ToastnBacon]

Seriously! It's not ancient and it's a beautiful story! They even have the film version on Netflix Instant, since it was on "The Twilight Zone". I love, love, love that short story and short film.

It was also one of the books in the hatch on Lost.

For a long time I thought the entire show was just the wish of the passengers as their plane plunged toward the earth.

[stillshimpy]

Rest assured, Cardie, as little as seven years ago, Ambrose Bierce and An Occurrence at Owl Creek were still being taught.  Kurt Vonnegut's praise for the story and Bierce's vanishing act made him a part of my son's AP English class.  

 

One thing is absolutely certain, the writers would be familiar with him.  

 

Although it sounds like the Hellish Radisson might have been part homage, at least and the vague similarity to a scene from An Occurrence at Owl Creek was mostly just something that jumped out at me.  

 

Speaking of the Noose Man, I was very powerfully reminded of a scene from Rectify from Drip, Drip and I couldn't pin down why.  Then I remembered why: Oh that's right, The Stranger was carrying a rope in that episode and was similarly grubby looking.   

[Penman61]

 

Also, being shallow for a second, JT is a fine looking man.

 

Jennifer Aniston, circa 2005: "Welp, I'll never again find anyone with abs like that!"

 

Universe:  "We'll just see about that..."

Edited November 23, 2015 by Penman61

[xaxat]

Kinda wish I had dropped some God's Tongue before the episode.

[Cosmocrush]

It was also one of the books in the hatch on Lost.

For a long time I thought the entire show was just the wish of the passengers as their plane plunged toward the earth.

Ooooh.  It must have left quite an impression on Lindelof.     And I must have taken the wrong AP English classes in high school. :(     I do remember seeing the film version of it on some TZ marathon however.  

[stillshimpy]

Ooooh.  It must have left quite an impression on Lindelof.

 

Bierce also seemingly vanished from the face of the Earth (I'm only half kidding on that, really no one knows for sure what became of him). 

[Mindymoo]

It certainly left an impression on me! Even though Peyton was a Confederate sympathizer who wanted to sabotage the bridge, when he "escaped" and was seeing colors he never saw before, smells he never smelled so strongly (which was amazing when my first introduction to the story was the black and white TZ episode) you really wanted him to really escape. And then that ending knocked the wind out of my chest. Bierce was a brilliant writer, one whose works are timeless, and I'm saddened that we will never likely know his fate.

[Pallas]

PLEASE DO NOT DISTURB

 

The sign Kevin hung on his door, as if it were a wish he'd unburied. That's when I smiled, realizing that I'd come to love Kevin and his perplexed devotions, his Pilgrim's Progress, his incredible cornucopaea of "Oh no, there's more?" expressions and attitudes. Yet always gamely taking another bite, trying to make conversation, like a guest at an in-law's table. Much more domesticated than he knows or thinks he wants to be (that's why the 'please' struck me as funny).  A wary dog, really; much more that than a mad stag.  

 

He shocked himself by telling Patti, "You want to destroy families."  Not just because he was astonished that he'd put it together -- and was still not certain that he'd got it right -- or because he feared that he was blowing his cover by saying it aloud...But because now, to Kevin, coming out of his mouth, it felt like blasphemy. "You want to destroy families."  Said Kevin, who'd been pretty certain on the night of 10/13 that he either wanted to destroy his own family, or really, just didn't give a shit.  Said Kevin, who'd used to smoke because he wanted to. 

[Cardie]

For a long time I thought the entire show was just the wish of the passengers as their plane plunged toward the earth.

 

The show was actually one long stay at the Island Radisson but, imo, the network wouldn't let them admit it when everyone guessed, for fear that no one would stick with a show in which all the characters were dead. So Lindelof still denies that to this day. Even though reference after reference confirmed that was what was going on.

 

If they'd finally revealed that the Island was Purgatory--and not spent six years denying that it was--all the crazy stuff would have made sense and people wouldn't be nearly so furious at Lost.

[Helena Dax]

Wow, that was crazy! Loved it. The supernatural stuff didn't bother me.  It's a show about a world  where something like  the  Departure happened and I guess  that, because of that, I'm willing to accept other "against science" situations. Was he really in the Purgatory?  I think he was. Mainly because  I  don't  think you  can be still alive after  spending three days buried  underground. You'd be inhaling dirt and that would kill  you, wouldn't it?

 

His father said he had  been  in the same room. If Kevin wasn't hallucinating, I guess that means Dad  went through that kind of ritual too.

 

I wonder about Mary. Her  presence at the hotel seems  to  imply that she's  dead,  even if her body isn't.

[MamaMax]

The one show on television where you haven't a clue what they'll do next. I'll take some weirdness just for the surprises. The long shot where Kevin finally just shoves child-Patti into the well in the middle of her "Would it be better if" litany was priceless. And his ease in blasting everyone to smithereens because he knew they were all dead. (Did the balloons for Mary mean that she's already halfway gone?)

 

Cool to see that the locals (at least the dead ones) are aware of the story of the indigenous woman and that the well is in honor of her orphaned baby.

 

I TOTALLY missed that it was Mary. Oy. So is she half dead? 

 

I also noted that Kevin's dad said he was in the same hotel room, and that it was in Australia.  Was Kevin in Australia? No, right, because he and Lil Patti drove back to Texas?   The Lazarus guy turned up in Australia, so what's the connection between Raddison Purgatory and Australia?  I dont get it, help!

Edited November 24, 2015 by MamaMax

[shapeshifter]

I wonder about Mary. Her presence at the hotel seems to imply that she's dead, even if her body isn't.

So. Brain dead.

Nora "forgot" the pain for at least several months. It also took traumatic confrontation with Erika (among other things) for Nora to feel that pain again. HW hugged so many people from different backgrounds, but only 1 hug per person. If it was all placebo, shouldn't it wear off rather quickly thus requiring more hugs?

Not necessarily.

Both PT and Twitter posts have their links embedded in the post's time stamp:

twitter.com/scifi_reviews/status/668986648961679360

Edited November 24, 2015 by shapeshifter

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Actually, the way he put on the towel was more, er, ah, whatever. Theroux must've been lifting weights prior to that scene.

More like JT was lifting weights, doing crunches, and not eating or drinking much of anything prior to that scene. He's very trim but very cut/ripped. My guess is as soon as those scenes were in the can, he was running to get a bottle of water or two to drink down. Actors and models will often not even drink water the day they have to shoot nude/nearly nude scenes so that they look more "cut" due to the dehydration (source: friend who works in the film industry). I'm not saying he isn't fit and cut, but damn....I think he was also doing whatever tricks of the trade to look that ripped. He also must follow a diet of strictly spinach, kale, and lean protein.

And as for the towel.....we've seen the other two major male characters that returned from last season do full frontal (Tom and Matt). Last night was really JT's turn and the perfect opportunity where full frontal would have made sense without being too gratuitous. When the actor who plays Matt did full frontal, I just thought "well, your move JT." But apparently he wasn't down for it. And as a female viewer who has seen more naked boobs on HBO than I ever desired (tons on "Boardwalk Empire" alone), I appreciate some full frontal like in this series this season & I also admire the guts it takes for a male actor to agree to do it. I'm disappointed, JT. All the other male actors on your show are doing it and you're the one I'd really like to see! Ok, I'll stop being a dirty 30-something aged woman now.

ITA. If Lindelof wants to write a Bourne-type assassin movie or another Alias show or Lost reboot, he should write a Bourne-type assassin movie or launch another Alias show or Lost reboot. I'd love to see Theroux in a spy movie. I just don't want that spy movie randomly shoehorned into an established show. While everything in the episode can be explained, it was too Lost-y and off-book for me.

I'm having fun with the show, but last night they got a little too specific with the unseen force.

I'm writing it off as weak poison and a hallucination.

The only positive thing I can manage to get from this episode is that Kevin didn't wuss out in the end and killed Patti. If she's not gone now and we have to keep seeing her, I might not be able to keep watching. I hated her in the first season, I hate her more now, and this episode didn't make me hate seeing her any less.

Count me among those who hate this supernatural crap. I can live with the Departure and people not knowing what caused it or what it's about, and I can live with there being no definitive answer about that. There can be a great show about the fallout and what the remaining people believe and how they react. This stuff with Kevin seeing Patti and birds coming back from the dead and Kevin coming back from drinking poison and his little journey within purgatory and that indigenous woman? No, just no. It's not necessary for a good story, and it actually ruins the story for me.

I just want to say I co-sign the opinions in these posts I've quoted. I was BORED out of my mind watching most of the episode because I just do not care/am not interested in that kind of show/film/whatever. It was so unlike everything I love about the show. It wasn't until he was alone with child Patti that I started to be interested again and it held my interest through the end of the episode. But as for the purgatorial Radisson, stupid spy movie fight scenes, etc....just UGH. Not why I'm here for "The Leftovers." I don't like sitting down to watch the show I've looked forward to watching all week and then spend 40 minutes of the show thinking "WTF is this show I'm watching?!"

I will give credit where credit is due....JT did kill his scenes (even if he won't go full frontal). I hope we never see Patti again and really, I think I've had my fill of Virgil too.

For a little bit I tried to focus on the people in the background at the hotel but I couldn't keep up with it cause I was SO bored. I was looking to see if I might spot Evie or the other missing girls? Anybody catch them there?

Edited November 24, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[TexasGal]

I was really disappointed that Kevin didn't go back and talk to Mary. That was the only thing that irked me about the episode. Whatever that says about me...

Edited November 24, 2015 by TexasGal

[Hava]

Eek. Did not like. I don't really like dream-state scenarios. This episode reminded me of a cross between Inception and the final season of Lost. And the whole "well" thing realllllly reminded me of Lost...and not in a good way.

 

I'm one of the few who loved season 1 way more than the first season. Season 1 was depressing as hell and also confusing, but I think I connected to it more than this season. This season is just...weird. I liked the show better when it was dealing with the "realities" of the aftermath of the departure.

[represent]

 

Wow, that was crazy! Loved it.

Not sure if I loved it, but I did like it. Once I saw disgusting Virgil, I thought that it must be Kevin's soul in between worlds or some shit like that. I liked watching it and trying to figure out the symbolism throughout. 

 

The bird, little girl in the pool, balloons, to drink or not to drink the water etc. I was like WTF?  Yet, I wasn't frustrated.

 

Lastly, I don't hate Patti, she seems to have had a sad life. I also didn't watch enough of season one to figure out why she's so disliked/hated.

 

But based on this episode I felt so sorry for her, first for the little girl in her, then the woman. Her father abusing her, kicking her down stairs, well of course she would think all she deserved was sick Neil.  

[Pallas]

The car in which Virgil instructed Kevin, and Kevin drove with Patti back to Jarden, was a white Mercedes: the same car left behind by the three girls.

I think we may be seeing more of the well -- the conduit between realities -- and the hotel. The plaque on the closet in Kevin's room read, "Know yourself for who you are, then array yourself accordingly."  Kevin had a choice between the personae of pastor (shepherd), policeman (guardian), or killer.  He chose killer, despite his father's demurral, "You're not an assassin."  Kevin also noted that he'd taken on an alias because, "I don't want anyone to know who I really am."  Patti made the point that assassins target people who embody a belief that the killer and victim share (though the killer, I assume, wants to deny); she added, "Someone would rather put a bullet in my head than acknowledge my truth."  

Patti confronts despair with a nihilism, and a conviction, that Kevin resists. She also reveals to Kevin a pathos that moves him at the same time it impels him to kill her, three times over: Patti the exploited stand-in (Kevin the police chief?), Patti the rejected child who tried to drown herself (Kevin in the Jarden springs), Patti the hapless victim -- who finally won the means to change her life, but couldn't follow through.  It's possible that Kevin will need to return to the hotel to try on other personae, and take on the mission of integrating who he really is.

[Cosmocrush]

Okay, you guys sold me.  Found free download copies of An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge [also a $.95 audio and inexpensive paperback.] on Amazon.  

His father said he had  been  in the same room. If Kevin wasn't hallucinating, I guess that means Dad  went through that kind of ritual too.

 

I wonder about Mary. Her  presence at the hotel seems  to  imply that she's  dead,  even if her body isn't.

 

 

I TOTALLY missed that it was Mary. Oy. So is she half dead? 

 

I also noted that Kevin's dad said he was in the same hotel room, and that it was in Australia.  Was Kevin in Australia? No, right, because he and Lil Patti drove back to Texas?   The Lazarus guy turned up in Australia, so what's the connection between Raddison Purgatory and Australia?  I dont get it, help!

I understood it as Kevin's father was in the same room at the same time in a different dimension. There was a fire on his bed and it was setting off the smoke detectors in Kevin's hotel whenever the TV/walkie talkie was working.    Kevin's dad was headed for Australia the last time he saw him.

 

I think Mary is in a comatose state - she's not dead, but she's not really alive either.   Like Kevin.

 

The car in which Virgil instructed Kevin, and Kevin drove with Patti back to Jarden, was a white Mercedes: the same car left behind by the three girls.

Oh good catch.  

Edited November 24, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[catrox14]

I have NO IDEA what this show is about, but I sure am enjoying it!

[BetyBee]

I do like the song intro, but I'm a weirdo.  I like the photo montage that goes along with it too.  I loved that they showed little Patti.  She really couldn't have turned out to be anything but annoying with the upbringing she apparently had and with her bad marriage.  I loved the way Kevin went down the well and connected with her, but still had to follow through with killing her.  Well, re-killing her.  I hope she's gone for good and that his craziness is behind him.  But who knows?  This show amazes me every week.

[Clanstarling]

Oh, I'm sure the ladies enjoyed seeing Kevin come out of the bathtub.

Indeed. Rewound it. Though I agree with whoever mentioned that the towel tucking was a bit more....well..

 

The reason that I think this was a waste of an episode is that it didn't advance the plot forward.

For me, the show has always seemed light on plot and big on character development. So I was okay with it.

 

I started out with a WTF, then just rolled with it and enjoyed the ride.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

The car in which Virgil instructed Kevin, and Kevin drove with Patti back to Jarden, was a white Mercedes: the same car left behind by the three girls.

Ooooh, good catch!

[A Boston Gal]

That was Neal, Patti's ex husband, with little girl Patti, yet I am having trouble figuring out why we weren't shown her father if it was important that we see Patti as a child.  Was it to show Neal as a stand in for every man that mistreated Patti throughout her life?

Guess I answered my own question. Carry on.

[Ronin Jackson]

I don't mind at all if fiction tackles places greater emphasis on spiritual themes over plot exposition... and it's clear, both here and in Lost, that Damon Lindelof has aspirations on this end. The problem for me is the way Lindelof chooses to explore spiritual themes almost never clicks with me. This episode was ostensibly about Kevin traveling to the land of the dead to have a confrontation with an inner (or perhaps outer) demon. That's a big, ambitious concept. But it felt like the episode was too interested in tip-toeing between the spy thriller framing device and this big spiritual concept, to the point it ultimately short changed the latter. Lindelof seems too interested in fitting these spiritual concepts into neat and tidy (and frankly all too often mundane) allegories, which to me ends up not resonating either on spiritual or expository levels.  

 

I can appreciate that they are bucking the norm and not worried about getting weird... but I think if they are going there they need to get both weirder and more emotional.

[RedHackle]

I've said in other episode threads that I just really like this show and can't stop watching it - regardless of how odd it gets.  I was the same way about Lost.  I liked it all the way through (for the most part.)  I don't need to have any belief in an afterlife or religious feelings to enjoy shows that do.  Just like I don't need to believe in witches and wizards to enjoy the Harry Potter books. Sometimes fantasy/spiritual flights of fancy are just fun to watch.  And I think LIndlehoff knows that some fans enjoy just playing "spot the symbolism" with shows.  Whatever, I like it.

 

One thing, though - it's hard to watch a character you like (or even one you might be luke-warm about) suffer endless tragedy, trouble and tribulation. I kept thinking last night how ready I am for Kevin to catch a break.  Then I remembered Jack from Lost;  in the final season in his 'flash sideways' episodes we get to see a version of Jack who is at peace with the world, and importantly (at least for Damon "Daddy Issues" Lindlehoff)  with his father.   I'm hoping that the "it will change you" line that the guy on the bridge gave to Kevin means that he's due for some peace.  But yes, with the handprint on the car looming, I don't think that's what we're going to get.

 

One place I differ from other viewers - the get -well card, and the flowers sent to Mary that Kevin thought might be for him - that made me wonder if perhaps Mary isn't going to come out of her coma after all.  I could be wrong but it seems that they wouldn't have cast Janel Maloney in a role if there wasn't the probability of her having more lines that what we've seen so far. 

 

(I also liked the "congratulations' line during the pat-down.  Ha ha - good one, show.)

Edited November 24, 2015 by RedHackle