S17.E09: Depravity Standard

[WendyCR72]

Benson seeks justice in the trial of child abductor Lewis Hodda (Tom Sizemore), but when a plea deal is rejected, Barba must rely on decades-old evidence to make his case and faces off against former SVU colleague Dr. Huang (BD Wong).

[Monkeybball]

Benson seeks justice in the trial of child abductor Lewis Hodda (Tom Sizemore), but when a plea deal is rejected, Barba must rely on decades-old evidence to make his case and faces off against former SVU colleague Dr. Huang (BD Wong).

I. Am. SO. Excited. To see this!!! Manhattan Vigil is one of my favorite episodes (even though the cutting/pasting of old footage was clumsy). Tom Sizemore was amazing in it. I actually just watched it this past Saturday. I like that they're letting us finally see a trial of a perp years later - you know, how things usually go in the real world.

Funny thing is that episode to me always marked one of the last episodes where Olivia was a truly skilled detective. In the interrogation room at least. You never see her dynamic like that anymore.

All that said - I'm just really excited to see Tom Sizemore again.

[Spartan Girl]

Did they just kill Amanda's baby?!

Jurys suck and so do lawyers. I was kind of hoping that Hector's mom would slap that bitch lawyer when she confronted her outside the courthouse.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Spartan Girl

[MrsRafaelBarba]

My heart broke for Hector's mother, the actress was fantastic.

Was this the fall finale?

If so, shame on you show. Making the fate of Baby Rollins a midseason cliffhanger.

[RafaelBarbas]

Thoughts:

Huang retiring made me sad.

I kind of ship Huang and Barba. And Barba/Mrs. Rodriguez. And Barson.

That cliffhanger was so predictable.

Ep needed more Huang after how they promoted it.

Barba-heavy YAAAAY

Carisi stop being dumb

I loved how Barba tried so hard to get Carisi not to join him

I kept worrying Barba would get hurt at the end by Mrs. Rodriguez in a fit of grief or something

Will we see Huang again? Please?

[wknt3]

The Good:

Barba!

Barba AND Carisi!

Fin's facial expressions talking about and dealing with the auxilliary cop.

Barba!!

The acting from the guest cast and the returns of Wong and Sizemore.

Barba!!!

The Bad:

I wasn't sure if Liv was supposed to be overreacting and handling this badly or if that was unintentional and just overplayed by Mariska.

They really should have used Huang more. It would have been great to see him really smack her down in the elevator.

The more the show keeps piling on the melodrama the less I care if Amanda's baby lives or dies.

This was a really strong episode. It's good to see that they were saving Barba for something special.

[ShortyMac]

Was this the fall finale?

If so, shame on you show. Making the fate of Baby Rollins a midseason cliffhanger.

 

Yes, it was.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

It was nice to see Huang again.

BD is quite busy these days, he joined the cast of Fox's Gotham.

Also will return for S2 of USA's Mr Robot, hopefully he can squeeze in another SVU appearance.

[Gigi43]

I wanted to hug Hector's mother too by the end of the episode. I wanted her to deck that lawyer so badly.

 

The Munch conspiracy theorist mention made me smile.

 

Carisi and Barba in the same episode, working together! This has got to happen more. 

 

Really, the baby is the cliffhanger? I know it's been done before, but I never like when an actually pregnant actress is made to play miscarriage/loss of the baby. Maybe because the script wouldn't be calling for it if not for the actress really being pregnant. I don't know, can't they just invest in bigger props instead of doing this? I'm not exactly interested in watching Amanda be a mom, at all, but I do hope this turns out to be a fake out, though even this was uncomfortable to watch KG have to play.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

This was Deadwood Alumn Robn Weigert's second appearance on SVU.

She played a rape victim in the episode Recall, with also featured veteran actress

Leslie Caron.

[StaceyNotStacie]

This wasn't a bad episode.  Aside from the baby drama cliffhanger, my only major complaint was that it took me a few minutes to figure out which case they were trying.  I know they usually don't do the "previously on L&O" beginning, but considering that this was from a previous season, I wish they would have done more to let us know which case this was about.  

 

That wannabe cop was a bit creepy.  When I saw Olivia pull up to the memorial at the end, I was pretty sure that she was going to arrest him after finding new evidence (or even for the bribery to find about the jury).  If they revisit this case again, I wouldn't be surprised to see him implicated for something.

[Hero]

I love how much Carisi was in this episode. The Carisi and Barba scenes were awesome.

[Princess Lucky]

Another very solid episode. This season has really been great. I loved seeing so much of the trial, we don't get to see that often.

 

I don't remember much of the original episode, just Tom Sizemore and Mili Avital (who were both fantastic). And I remembered the creepy auxiliary cop when I saw him.

 

So, I appreciated that there seemed to be some doubt (at least in my mind) as to whether or not Tom Sizemore actually committed that first crime. As to whether or not Olivia did coerce that confession. By the end I was like "but did he really do this? Just try him for the crime we know he definitely committed". I was glad that seems like it's going to happen.

 

Robin Weigert was amazing and she looked amazing, too. Tom Sizemore was great as always (such an underappreciated and unfortunately troubled actor), and the actress who played Hector's mother really got to me. When she thanked Barba in the end, touching him, damn. She was a good woman.

 

Huang's return was strange. Barba said he was a hired gun now but, frankly, I was kind of with Huang on this one. He didn't know for sure. Though that whole "an authority figure told him to do something, therefore coercion" was iffy. But then, Olivia's words could constitute a threat.

 

Lots of Barba. I got excited we might see his closing argument, but it was a one-sentence tease. Oh well. I loved his scenes. I always love seeing more of Raul Esparza.

 

And lots of Carisi, too! Man, I love Carisi. Getting excited about the hearing, taking food to Amanda, shadowing Barba in a surprisingly helpful way, picking up on Hoda's tell. I was surprised Barba actually thanked Carisi, by the way. They seemed to be a lot more cordial than I remember. Like, Barba was straight-up teasing Carisi. I'm paraphrasing, but Barba was all "I'll alert the bar association" and "thank you doctor Carisi" and, I don't know. This was the first time Barba's jabs felt like jokes. I loved it.

 

I mean, Barba was the only hold-out. Everyone else had already come around to the awesomeness of Carisi, and now Barba has too. About damn time.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Princess Lucky

[solequeene]

Loved it.

 

Interesting, difficult case, good acting, good writing, lots and lots of trial scenes. Everything that makes me happy.

 

Sizemore was amazing, the body language was on another acting league. I am troubled about him becuase I actually believed what Huang said and yes, I can see it. Huang was under-used, unfortunately but he held himself up against Olivia, so yay Huang. I hope we can get more of him. I really liked the deffense attorney, too. She was smart, she was quick, she knew how to play around Barba; I snorted loud when she called Caris arm candy.

 

Barba and Carisi have become my favourite characters after  Munch's departure, so I'm in heaven after an episode that featured a lot of them. So nice to see Carisi actually being useful to Barba and Barba showing him some appreciation! We need more of them together, they are always entertaining (and pretty to watch, hahaha).

 

Olivia needs to stop talking about following police procedure. Like, now.

 

All in all, really great episode, one of the ones that'll be re-watched.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

 

I know it's been done before, but I never like when an actually pregnant actress is made to play miscarriage/loss of the baby. Maybe because the script wouldn't be calling for it if not for the actress really being pregnant.

Thank you, that made me uncomfortable for her. Also, this is...a cop show. I like Giddish and she played that as well as she could, but none of that should even be onscreen IMO. 

[The Bullpen]

I'm calling it now - the wannabe NYPD officer is going to cross the line (like, more than he already has) in an upcoming episode.  And maybe it will be revealed that he was responsible for the first kidnapping and murder.

ETA: oops, Stacey1014 already said this.  But yeah, bottom line is - the wannabe cop stands out as really creepy/off, and I can't see the show not going to that well again.

Edited November 19, 2015 by The Bullpen

[Primetimer]

Huang returns, and so does an S14 case ripped from the 1979 headlines -- and Liv's soggy self-regard. Boo. However: Barba! Yay!

Read the story

[solequeene]

I'm calling it now - the wannabe NYPD officer is going to cross the line (like, more than he already has) in an upcoming episode.  And maybe it will be revealed that he was responsible for the first kidnapping and murder.

ETA: oops, Stacey1014 already said this.  But yeah, bottom line is - the wannabe cop stands out as really creepy/off, and I can't see the show not going to that well again.

 

He is pretty creepy and I would have liked to hear more about him taking anti-psychotic meds. I don't remember it from the original episode - it was a weird episode because Hodda never seemed to be all there and the Cop Lite guy creeped me out.

[Save Yourself]

The good:

I'm adding my voice to the Carisi/Barba Appreciation Club. They are both great and played well off each other. Sooooo glad to have Barba back, missed him soooo much!!!

Was interesting revisiting an old case and I liked that the whole show was courtroom based, we haven't seen that for awhile.

Love the support Fin and Carisi are giving Amanda, so sweet, especially after her bitch mother deserted her. I really enjoy the Carisi/Amanda sibling type relationship that is developing. I hope they never ship them, I like seeing men and women be friends on TV without it always becoming romantic - that's what I liked about Benson/Stabler.

Lol'd at Carisi telling Liv 'we're close, contractions 5 mins apart' like it was his baby too!

Huang!!!

The bad:

As a couple of others have said, I'm really disgusted that Kelli had to portray a woman in danger of losing her baby when she was pregnant in real life. I've been worried they were going to have Amanda have a stillborn baby because I think that's awful to do to a pregnant actress and also, I'm sick of Amanda having such crappy things happen to her. She's so lovely and has worked very hard to pull herself up by the bootstraps out of her crappy upbringing, it's not fair that she never has a 'win'. And just bullshit to have a baby's life as a cliffhanger, ugh.

Don't like Liv being all 'oh no, you have him' about Carisi to Barba as if he's such a cross to bear. He's enthusiastic, kind and a good cop (and HOT lol), she needs to get over herself.

I often say it, but why why have they turned Liv into such an awful person, she used to be so awesome, it's like she's a completely different character. And God, more head shaking, I actually laughed when she did it in the lift at Huang.

Off topic: is Barba gay? For some reason I've always thought he is but I notice a lot of people ship him with Liv.

[Save Yourself]

He is pretty creepy and I would have liked to hear more about him taking anti-psychotic meds. I don't remember it from the original episode - it was a weird episode because Hodda never seemed to be all there and the Cop Lite guy creeped me out.

I get really frustrated when TV shows trot things like that out ie, the insinuation that anti-psychotic drugs are only used for psychosis. Like a lot of meds, they have multiple uses - they can be used as a stabiliser for conditions such as bipolar, as a sleeping aid and to 'boost' the effects of anti-depressants. It's similar to epilepsy medication being used as a stabiliser for bipolar and aspirin being used for cardiovascular conditions.

NB: although I agree with you, there is defo something funky about that dude!

[solequeene]

Off topic: is Barba gay? For some reason I've always thought he is but I notice a lot of people ship him with Liv.

 

I remember Raúl Esparza saying he plays Barba as ambiguosly bi and we know that Barba had girlfriends in the past. Otoh, I never thought he is 100% straight but I cannot pinpoint why. Something about him in Criminak Hatred? I don't know.

 

There's also an interview somewhere mentioning that SVU might have a gay character this season and both RE and Peter Scanavino saying that they would like to play him. It'd be nice to have some more diversity on the show, I mean, Huang is gay but he wasn't a main character.

 

I get really frustrated when TV shows trot things like that out ie, the insinuation that anti-psychotic drugs are only used for psychosis. Like a lot of meds, they have multiple uses - they can be used as a stabiliser for conditions such as bipolar, as a sleeping aid and to 'boost' the effects of anti-depressants. It's similar to epilepsy medication being used as a stabiliser for bipolar and aspirin being used for cardiovascular conditions.

NB: although I agree with you, there is defo something funky about that dude!

 

True! I didn't mean to say they are only used for psychosis, I'm sorry! I meant, I didn't remember anything mentioned about it in the original episode and it seems like something that would have come up, especially as they thought the guy was the kidnapper-killer.

[Save Yourself]

I remember Raúl Esparza saying he plays Barba as ambiguosly bi and we know that Barba had girlfriends in the past. Otoh, I never thought he is 100% straight but I cannot pinpoint why. Something about him in Criminak Hatred? I don't know.

There's also an interview somewhere mentioning that SVU might have a gay character this season and both RE and Peter Scanavino saying that they would like to play him. It'd be nice to have some more diversity on the show, I mean, Huang is gay but he wasn't a main character.

True! I didn't mean to say they are only used for psychosis, I'm sorry! I meant, I didn't remember anything mentioned about it in the original episode and it seems like something that would have come up, especially as they thought the guy was the kidnapper-killer.

That's interesting that Raul said that, I'm glad I'm not just seeing something that's not there! It would be good if at some stage they made that clear because bisexual characters don't have enough representation on TV shows.

Oh no, sorry I gave you the impression I was having a go at you re the meds! I wasn't at all - I was having a little rant about the depiction of drugs like that in general on fictional programs, it just adds to the stigma of mental illness.

I'm 50/50 with that dude. On one hand he just seems like someone who hasn't been able fulfill his career ambition so has instead channeled that into doing his own investigation which I think is pretty admirable. On the other hand, there's just something 'off' about him but maybe he's just socially awkward and desperate for approval/recognition by the 'real' police.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Save Yourself

[Desperately Random]

True! I didn't mean to say they are only used for psychosis, I'm sorry! I meant, I didn't remember anything mentioned about it in the original episode and it seems like something that would have come up, especially as they thought the guy was the kidnapper-killer.

I watched the original episode yesterday because I really didn't remember it that well. They definitely mentioned the auxiliary cop was taking anti-depressant and anti-psychotic medication. He didn't want them to know about it (and would only tell Amanda) but it turned out it was his alibi for the kidnapping. He was at the pharmacy in another  part of the city picking up his meds when the boy was kidnapped at the subway station.

I enjoyed this episode and how they followed through with the same actors and continuity. The auxiliary cop in the original episode only trusted Amanda and they again had him refuse to help unless they called Amanda first. I wouldn't mind seeing this kind of episode again. There are a few SVUs that I would like to see a follow up done.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Desperately Random

[bikebrh]

Looks to me like Robin Weigert has lost 30 pounds or so since the Calamity Jane days. I almost didn't recognize her. Hopefully she'll get more parts now.

[gesundheit]

Robin Weigert is too hot to ignore. Loved seeing her play attorney again.

 

It was great to see Huang back, and they certainly gave him his traditionally terrible dialogue (that line about Olivia's threat essentially being the strap Hodda's father hit him with? Ha!).

 

I'm having trouble understanding how Carisi is a member of this "elite" squad of detectives who barely have time for a personal life but is also a law student and has time to shadow an ADA on a big trial.

 

I'm always wondering what portion of parents of victims actually refuse to allow their children to testify in a trial when that testimony is basically the only thing that'll convict the child's molester/kidnapper/attempted murderer/etc. Because on SVU it's at a solid 90% or more. I mean I know it must be agony to put your child through testifying at a trial like that about an unimaginable trauma, but I have trouble believing that almost none of them would still decide that it's worth it to avoid their rapist/abductor/etc going free and doing it to other people.

[Desperately Random]

I'm always wondering what portion of parents of victims actually refuse to allow their children to testify in a trial when that testimony is basically the only thing that'll convict the child's molester/kidnapper/attempted murderer/etc. Because on SVU it's at a solid 90% or more. I mean I know it must be agony to put your child through testifying at a trial like that about an unimaginable trauma, but I have trouble believing that almost none of them would still decide that it's worth it to avoid their rapist/abductor/etc going free and doing it to other people.

I've often wondered that myself and I think that they do that for dramatic purposes and to further the plot. I have to think that despite it being difficult for a child to testify it must be much more damaging for them (and the parents) to know the defendant is still free. I would think the anxiety for the child knowing the person who molested/kidnapped them could come back would be emotionally devastating. How would the child ever truly feel safe again? Or the parents?

[MorbidPet]

So I skipped last week's ep cause well no Amanda/Kelli & even though I knew she was only gonna be in sparsely in this ep I tuned in cause I liked this case back then & also well Huang (especially Huang going against Liv, like who can say no to that!?)

Great to see Barba in action and him telling Liv to basically sit the f down was just awesome. It made sense Carisi was at his table & he did good.

Props to Tom Sizemore, he was mostly just sleazy in Manhattan Vigil imo but he was awesome in this ep. It was a joy just to watch his facial expressions during the trial.

No Dodds Jr - heaven!

Edited November 21, 2015 by WendyCR72
Edited to remove spoilery talk. Please keep this in the spoiler section. Thanks!

[Monkeybball]

HATED the episode overall just because I had such high hopes for it.  But in actuality it was pretty good.

 

The Good:

-Carisi sitting second chair and hitting it big with the "little boys?" thing.  As a younger attorney myself, it's cool to see them do that because that stuff actually happens in real life.  The more seasoned and experienced you are and the more used you are to everything, sometimes you miss little hiccups like that that seem weird as hell to someone more new.

-Carisi and Barba together a lot in the episode - my GOD are they gorgeous.  With the suits and all.

-Actor who played Dolores - always thought she was GREAT in Manhattan Vigil but man, does she really break your heart!  She's fantastic.

-Tom Sizemore - he is a great actor and gave a great performance but jeez did they give him shit writing to work with.  LOVE his facial expressions and how present in the scenes he is.  His forehead movements alone are so telling.

-HESCHI HOROWITZ IS A JUDGE NOW!!!

 

The Bad:

-Why does it always seem like Olivia is a central issue in every case?  I've seen lawyers try to discredit detectives but not to the effect that they put them on trial.  And it's DETECTIVE BENSON every time.  You'd think she'd have some more inquiries by now with all this malarky!

-Not enough Huang.  Not. At. All.

-Hated the female lawyer.

-Not enough Fin, and I wished they'd brought back Munch for this one.

-I HATE when they do this stuff in almost every episode - the parent of a kid who was the victim and who could save the case refuses to let his/her child testify.  

 

Building on that last point: I know it's traumatic, and people like to hope that their children will be spared the pain of the trial, but in actuality, kids are usually quite zealous about confronting their attackers.  Okay maybe that was an exaggeration - and it certainly does not involve child victims of sexual abuse - but a kid like Wyatt?  He was kidnapped and held by the guy - if he was molested, I'm sure we would have heard about it.  I bet that little boy would have loved to be on the stand.  And I'm sorry, the parents - knowing that your child's testimony is the ONE THING that will put the nail in the coffin on this guy?  I can't imagine anyone being so unwilling.  Glad Mili Avital (who I LOVE btw) came to her senses.

 

It might sound a little ridiculous what I said above, but I'm sick of SVU using this particular tactic as the basis for some extra "drama" in their shows.  To me lately, the episodes have all seemed very short.  Like there's something missing.  I get to the last 15 minutes or so and I'm like hmmmm....this episode seems like it needs to go on a lot longer.  I don't know if they are wasting time with some stuff but constantly using this "I WON'T TESTIFY!!!!" thing to build up drama is ridiculous.  

[gesundheit]

I don't know if they are wasting time with some stuff but constantly using this "I WON'T TESTIFY!!!!" thing to build up drama is ridiculous.  

Yep, and it's typically parents not letting their kid testify (therefore ensuring that they live in fear forever) or some rape victim who's already holed herself up in some dungeon-esque apartment and afraid to go out in public because he might attack her again. I'm sure some victims defy logic in that scenario, but I find it hard to believe anything other than the vast majority of them are thinking "well, my life is already changed as a result of this trauma, how about not living in fear of this one particular person anymore, that sounds pretty damn good!"

[gryphon]

BARBA!  Squee!   And HUANG!     I would love it if they got together.  Hotness!  

 

Not enough Fin in this episode, for my taste.   But, again, BARBA!!!

 

Baby cliffhanger? Oh, man...this stuff makes me uncomfortable--agree to what was said before regarding pregnant women having possible miscarriages. So painful to watch. 

[Racj82]

It was nice to see Huang again.

BD is quite busy these days, he joined the cast of Fox's Gotham.

Also will return for S2 of USA's Mr Robot, hopefully he can squeeze in another SVU appearance.

more importantly, Jurassic World.

[FozzyBear]

I've often wondered that myself and I think that they do that for dramatic purposes and to further the plot. I have to think that despite it being difficult for a child to testify it must be much more damaging for them (and the parents) to know the defendant is still free. I would think the anxiety for the child knowing the person who molested/kidnapped them could come back would be emotionally devastating. How would the child ever truly feel safe again? Or the parents?

I wonder about that too. Is that a thing that actually happens a lot? And do DA really just say ok instead of issuing a warrant to compel testimony? Or is it like the L&OSVU trope that sex offenders have a really high recidivism rate(which as I understand it isn't actually supported by much data)?

Anyway, it's been a while since we had full blown asshole Benson. Glad to see she can still be insufferable at a moments notice. Fire her already, she's a horrible officer.

Why are Barba and Benson supposed to be so annoyed by Carassi? Even if he wasn't my boyfriend, I kind of don't get it. He's hardworking, eager to learn, even tempered, willing to look at his job in a objective light...oh.

[RafaelBarba35]

Loved this episode! Mainly because Rafael was in it. Damn I missed him.

Olivia was just being Olivia. Why does she always get bitchy at other people when they are just doing their jobs? And why the hell did she interrogate someone for six hours and then turn on the camera? If I was in that jury, I would wonder what happened when the camera wasn't rolling. Best part was when Rafi told her to sit her ass down. It sounded like something Cragen would say. I think Rafi is the only one who could take Olivia down a peg or two when needed.

Seeing George again was great even if he was on the defense's side. I wish I could have seen Rafael cross examine him though. When George is talking about Hodda's father being an abusive drunk, Rafi looked pretty agitated. Maybe because his own father was like that?

I also noticed when Rafi cross examined Hodda, his hand clenched into a fist again.

Sonny was great as usual. Watching him shadow Barba was awesome plus when he gave him the note on how Hodda stumbled over saying 'little boys'. And afterward Rafi thanked him. He actually thanked Sonny for that little tell! Sonny being supportive of Amanda was also sweet.

Now onto the part I didn't like: the ending. Really? We are going to end on a cliffhanger? Damn just let her have the damn baby alive and well and just leave the poor woman alone. She has been through the ringer too many times. Let her be happy for once. She deserves it.

[tpel]

The picture at the top of the Previously TV analysis article linked above, taken out of context, is kind of a gift to Barba/Huang shippers. Barba is looking up in Haung's direction with what could be interpreted as an adoring smile. Of course, in context, we know that just after this scene Barba says he regards Huang as a hired gun for the defense, so his smile is probably more "appraising a potential threat" than adoring. Still, nice picture!

 

I suppose we might never know whether Hodda is guilty in Hector's case, but (despite the clunky dialogue that gesundheit so aptly derided) I would like to see Huang's assessment vindicated.

[krimimimi]

Anyone interested in seeing Huang's assessment more than vindicated try googling false confessions +experiment. It's disturbing. (Basically, when properly worked over, and one should hope the police are schooled enough to do things "properly," most of us will confess to all sorts of stuff we didn't do.)

While I don't blame Liv for using the methods she did to get the info that enabled them to save the other boy, I have serious problems viewing that confession as anything other than coerced. What she did was a far more real threat than the threat of doing a suspect physical harm. With physical abuse, the detectives are likely to suffer repercussions, and therefore less likely to actually do it. What she threatened was in fact a very real threat to life and limb, and a great deal more probable as to implementation. So I can understand her approach, but also think it needs to be paired with enough honesty to realize it can't be used in court. The case should have been built on evidence.

[Gigi43]

I get really frustrated when TV shows trot things like that out ie, the insinuation that anti-psychotic drugs are only used for psychosis. Like a lot of meds, they have multiple uses - they can be used as a stabiliser for conditions such as bipolar, as a sleeping aid and to 'boost' the effects of anti-depressants. It's similar to epilepsy medication being used as a stabiliser for bipolar and aspirin being used for cardiovascular conditions.

NB: although I agree with you, there is defo something funky about that dude!

 

He really was creepy. But I feel you on the drug issue. I've been on seizure meds as of last year and it's commonly used to treat BiPolar and several other conditions, a lot apparently are used to treat both. I had to really adjust because since I didn't need the stabilisers they kinda had the opposite effect of making me jumpy, and if you look at my CVS records between filing that every month and what I take to sleep, you can get a very different impression of my medical history than what it really is. I'd like for once if they went to bring that up to someone and have it thrown back they jumped to conclusions and they take (Insert Drug Here) for something that has nothing to do with mental illness.

[krimimimi]

I thought this might interest some of you, as to "headlines from which it was ripped". Doubt it was this case per se, but there are some interesting parallels, and it provides food for thought.

It's the case of a kidnapping of a young boy, the arrest of a suspect, the threat of torture authorized by the deputy chief of police to finally get him to talk (which succeeded), and how the judge ruled on what to do about it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/world/kidnapping-has-germans-debating-police-torture.html

the presiding judge, Hans Bachl, denied a defense motion to dismiss the case. But Judge Bachl did agree with one demand of Mr. Gäfgen's defense, ruling that because of the torture threat, all the information that the police obtained from Mr. Gäfgen himself was inadmissible.

''The testimony was not obtained in accordance with the constitution or German law and is clearly inadmissible, but in view of the grave accusations against the accused, the damage done by these errors is not so serious that the trial has to be discontinued,'' Judge Bachl ruled.

As I recall, the deputy chief retired in the wake of this, but was subsequently hired as a security expert by the boy's family.

[itainttippithebird]

So I guess nothing's gonna come of that cupcake girl (William Lewis's jury forewoman/prison break accomplice) being in the courtroom during the season opener, unless they're playing the real long haul and bringing her back in the new year! Weird. OR SNEAKY.

[Snookums]

I know it's been done before, but I never like when an actually pregnant actress is made to play miscarriage/loss of the baby. Maybe because the script wouldn't be calling for it if not for the actress really being pregnant.

 

 

Ugh, I hate that too. It's really gross to put a brand new parent through it.

 

I liked this one. Everything that's usually a SVU PLOT TWIST! was left untwisted: The forewoman may have wanted to go home for Thanksgiving but she wasn't shirking her duty. Juror Four wasn't trying to tank the case; he genuinely wanted to do his job. Creepy ass Aux Cop was just that--a creepy weirdo who actually isn't the "real" killer, just a weird guy who wants to do the right thing. The defense attorney was performing her job well, as was Barba. Tom Sizemore excelled as a man who really isn't sure why he does anything but is convinced he's being bullied into whatever it was.

 

 

And why the hell did she interrogate someone for six hours and then turn on the camera?

 

 

To be fair, Liv didn't do all the interrogating--most of it was Munsch. She came in at the end and recorded Sizemore's confession.

[Monkeybball]

Ugh, I hate that too. It's really gross to put a brand new parent through it.

 

I liked this one. Everything that's usually a SVU PLOT TWIST! was left untwisted: The forewoman may have wanted to go home for Thanksgiving but she wasn't shirking her duty. Juror Four wasn't trying to tank the case; he genuinely wanted to do his job. Creepy ass Aux Cop was just that--a creepy weirdo who actually isn't the "real" killer, just a weird guy who wants to do the right thing. The defense attorney was performing her job well, as was Barba. Tom Sizemore excelled as a man who really isn't sure why he does anything but is convinced he's being bullied into whatever it was.

 

 

To be fair, Liv didn't do all the interrogating--most of it was Munsch. She came in at the end and recorded Sizemore's confession.

It was Amaro in the room with her actually, he had to restrain Hodda at one point because he flipped when Olivia finally accused him of setting the fires to cover up the little boys' bodies.  

 

Interestingly enough, I could definitely see how his confession could be considered "coerced" if you subscribe completely to the B.D. Wong type thinking (I dunno why I just called him by his real name but whatever) because his confession really came when she insisted on using the word chomo and kept on him about little boys, kiddie peeping, etc. That's when he started going "I'm not a chickenhawk, I'm not a chickenhawk, I'm not."  It was clearly the implication of that word that set him off, as he was cool as a cucumber when they were just talking to him about arson and murder before hand.

 

However....coerced confession or not, he definitely did it.

[LeGrandElephant]

Who wants their boss in the room when they're going into labor?!

[wknt3]

-Why does it always seem like Olivia is a central issue in every case?  I've seen lawyers try to discredit detectives but not to the effect that they put them on trial.  And it's DETECTIVE BENSON every time.  You'd think she'd have some more inquiries by now with all this malarky!

 

Because St. Benson truly cares. She understands the issues, and truly knows what victims need and how to punish the guilty. And our corrupt world can't tolerate that so TPTB will do everything they can to discredit her from the Chiefs at 1PP putting up roadblocks in her path to defense attorneys tearing her down in court. Or because it's something that Mariska finds interesting so Warren Leight is happy to beat us over the head with it like anything else she's wanted to do actingwise these last few seasons no matter how much sense it makes either internally or storywise...

[MrsRafaelBarba]

When Barba told Olivia to sit her ass down....

_______________________________________________________________________

Best line of the episode.

Edited November 20, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[Kel Varnsen]

I like that they're letting us finally see a trial of a perp years later - you know, how things usually go in the real world.

I am curious if it really would have taken that long (I really have no idea) I mean they had a confession and he was originally going to plead guilt so why did he have to wait 3 years?

 

This wasn't a bad episode.  Aside from the baby drama cliffhanger, my only major complaint was that it took me a few minutes to figure out which case they were trying.  I know they usually don't do the "previously on L&O" beginning, but considering that this was from a previous season, I wish they would have done more to let us know which case this was about.  

I was doing the same thing. Until I saw the mural I was trying to figure out what was going on. Just read the wikipedia summary and it makes much more sense.

 

Looks to me like Robin Weigert has lost 30 pounds or so since the Calamity Jane days. I almost didn't recognize her. Hopefully she'll get more parts now.

 

Seeing her act as a character not completely drunk, after watching a bunch of Deadwood recently, was kind of weird.

 

Anyone interested in seeing Huang's assessment more than vindicated try googling false confessions +experiment. It's disturbing. (Basically, when properly worked over, and one should hope the police are schooled enough to do things "properly," most of us will confess to all sorts of stuff we didn't do.)

There was an episode of Homicide Life on the Streets from way back where Frank Pembleton did that exact thing after the bosses told him they needed a confession on a case. Since both shows are in the same universe it would have been cool to have Munch show up and mentioned how he saw that kind of false confession in Baltimore.

[WendyCR72]

I am curious if it really would have taken that long (I really have no idea) I mean they had a confession and he was originally going to plead guilt so why did he have to wait 3 years?

 

I think it is realistic in terms of crime to court time (excluding the plea angle) because, to apply this to a real crime, the Colorado theater shooter just went on trial earlier this year for the shootings in 2012.

 

So fair and "speedy" trial seems to be a bit of a misnomer.

[Save Yourself]

I'm having trouble understanding how Carisi is a member of this "elite" squad of detectives who barely have time for a personal life but is also a law student and has time to shadow an ADA on a big trial.

 

I'm so silly, I've never thought of that!!! How does he do it?!

 

 

I've often wondered that myself and I think that they do that for dramatic purposes and to further the plot. I have to think that despite it being difficult for a child to testify it must be much more damaging for them (and the parents) to know the defendant is still free. I would think the anxiety for the child knowing the person who molested/kidnapped them could come back would be emotionally devastating. How would the child ever truly feel safe again? Or the parents?

 

Yes I imagine a child would be glad the 'bad man' got put away and I would think nearly every parent would want to see the perpetrator punished and also not be at risk of hurting another child.

 

While I don't blame Liv for using the methods she did to get the info that enabled them to save the other boy, I have serious problems viewing that confession as anything other than coerced. What she did was a far more real threat than the threat of doing a suspect physical harm. With physical abuse, the detectives are likely to suffer repercussions, and therefore less likely to actually do it. What she threatened was in fact a very real threat to life and limb, and a great deal more probable as to implementation. So I can understand her approach, but also think it needs to be paired with enough honesty to realize it can't be used in court. The case should have been built on evidence.

 

 

Yes, she really did have to strong arm him in that episode because of the urgency of finding the missing child, I'd like to think she wouldn't have been so full on if it hadn't been for the time pressure.

 

He really was creepy. But I feel you on the drug issue. I've been on seizure meds as of last year and it's commonly used to treat BiPolar and several other conditions, a lot apparently are used to treat both. I had to really adjust because since I didn't need the stabilisers they kinda had the opposite effect of making me jumpy, and if you look at my CVS records between filing that every month and what I take to sleep, you can get a very different impression of my medical history than what it really is. I'd like for once if they went to bring that up to someone and have it thrown back they jumped to conclusions and they take (Insert Drug Here) for something that has nothing to do with mental illness.

 

Glad to see someone else has the same concern, I wasn't sure if I was being too precious about it! I also don't like when they imply (as they did in this ep) that anyone with a mental illness is most likely going to be violent, people with mental health issues are more likely to be the victim of a crime than be the perpetrator.

 

So I guess nothing's gonna come of that cupcake girl (William Lewis's jury forewoman/prison break accomplice) being in the courtroom during the season opener, unless they're playing the real long haul and bringing her back in the new year! Weird. OR SNEAKY.

 

I know! I hope they do something with that, it was very odd to have her in the gallery if they don't have an upcoming storyline involving her.

 

Interestingly enough, I could definitely see how his confession could be considered "coerced" if you subscribe completely to the B.D. Wong type thinking (I dunno why I just called him by his real name but whatever)

 

It might be because he plays a psychiatrist or other type of doctor in a lot of his roles! ;) Whatever I see him in I always refer to him as 'Dr Wong' no matter what his name in the show/movie is lol!

 

Who wants their boss in the room when they're going into labor?!

 

Well you would if it was Liv, she's the bestest at evvveerrything lol! Although I do think they should have let Benson or Carisi stay in the room with Amanda when the medical staff rushed in, I felt so sorry for her looking scared and being all alone like that. There is no way that would happen in real life, at least not in my experience in Australia, it's just horrible!

 

When Barba told Olivia to sit her ass down....

_______________________________________________________________________

Best line of the episode.

 

THIS!!!

 

Why are Barba and Benson supposed to be so annoyed by Carassi? Even if he wasn't my boyfriend, I kind of don't get it. He's hardworking, eager to learn, even tempered, willing to look at his job in a objective light...oh.

 

I'm kind of ok with Barba taking a little while to come around to him because of when Carisi first started and he kept quoting the law to Harvard graduate Barba lol, he seems to be starting to like him more though. But Benson? Wtf, I thought she was cool with him now and then this episode she was so rude about not wanting him back quickly to SVU. Very wishy-washy.

 

 

 

*Did anyone catch what Amanda said to Benson and Carisi when she screamed in agony, after she said 'it's not a contraction'. And also when she lifted up the sheet when the nurse came in - was it 'is that my placenta'?

Edited November 20, 2015 by Save Yourself

[Lillybee]

I liked seeing Carisi being Rollins' doula. He was quite caring.

[Snookums]

Anyone interested in seeing Huang's assessment more than vindicated try googling false confessions +experiment. It's disturbing. (Basically, when properly worked over, and one should hope the police are schooled enough to do things "properly," most of us will confess to all sorts of stuff we didn't do.)

 

 

Hell, they nearly did it just last episode! When they were trying to find the murderer of a teenage girl and they were using the DNA of one guy who dogged it all over town, they very nearly romanced a confession out of one of them; a guy who clearly has been in the wrong place at the wrong time his entire life without the wits to see it. It was horribly creepy to watch Dodds and Carisi almost, almost, allllllmooooost get this guy to say he had done it...ten more seconds and they would have had a false confession and either quit looking for the real killer while ruining this man's life, or had realized it wasn't him but had the real killer's attorney rightly point out they had a confession from another man.

 

And these guys didn't do anything "wrong." The suspect looked more than good for it--hell, the circumstantial evidence was basically a tailored suit made just for him. He was a drunk, a loser, a slowpoke in the brains department, and the DNA said basically it was somebody in his family and nobody else they knew of at the time even came close. They weren't wrong. But they were.

 

Nobody for the rest of the ep even mentioned how close they came, and I wonder if the writers put that scene in there to advise this episode, to show how a good, experienced cop, desperate to get information that could save a child, could play the wrong chords on a person--get the needed thing, but set themselves up for so much blowback down the line.

[Save Yourself]

 

I liked this one. Everything that's usually a SVU PLOT TWIST! was left untwisted: The forewoman may have wanted to go home for Thanksgiving but she wasn't shirking her duty. Juror Four wasn't trying to tank the case; he genuinely wanted to do his job. Creepy ass Aux Cop was just that--a creepy weirdo who actually isn't the "real" killer, just a weird guy who wants to do the right thing. The defense attorney was performing her job well, as was Barba. Tom Sizemore excelled as a man who really isn't sure why he does anything but is convinced he's being bullied into whatever it was.

 

 

 

Yes to this - I kept waiting for the forewoman to do something dodgy or some other twist to happen and it didn't which was great, nice change for the better. The twist was there was no twist! :)

[MorbidPet]

So I guess nothing's gonna come of that cupcake girl (William Lewis's jury forewoman/prison break accomplice) being in the courtroom during the season opener, unless they're playing the real long haul and bringing her back in the new year! Weird. OR SNEAKY.

Oh I think it's safe to say it's coming. If you're like me and can't stand too much of WL then just skip to end of 2nd last paragraph http://www.examiner.com/article/law-order-svu-boss-reveals-mockery-maniacal-plan-for-future-episodes