S05.E08: Birth

[FormerMod-a1]

I am so ready for this arc to be over.

[Mathius]

 

He's had those rings since the pub scene in The Crocodile too, so he was doing these things fairly early in his pirate career. Edit: Which doesn't make sense because upon rewatch, he says that he killed a guy for calling him one-hand Jones. Unless unfortunate dead Barnaby was oddly prescient or Hook had another hand problem at some point. 

 

It's just another prop issue like with the Grail being in Rumple's place; his descriptions clearly alluded to him killing these people as Captain Hook (when he was "a pirate for hundreds of years").

[YaddaYadda]

I was happy to see Mulan and Red back. I just think it's too bad they were stuck in that episode that was all about Merida whom I could care less about.

 

So, Anton can grow magic beans now? Anyone else get that? I think they just fixed that stupid portal problem.

[Rosiejuliemom]

I'm having visions of 5A ending a la Buffy running Angel through with a sword and Acathla taking him into the hell dimension. Killian may become the only character to die twice by a mortal Excalbur wound.

 

I swear by all that is holy, if Full of Grace or something similar plays in the 5A finale, I will flip a table.

[scenicbyway]

Show makes my head hurt.

At this point, I don't even know if there are any noble intentions buried underneath all of Arthur's dark deeds. And when he was the knight that stabbed King Fergie, he looked substantially taller/bigger than he does normally.

It has been so long since I've seen Red/Ruby, I wasn't sure if that was original recipe Ruby or another pretty land haired actress.

ETA: Wonder if the 2nd ep was cobbled together at the last minute to fill the time slot for Wicked City (which I thought played after OuaT).

The network did ask for a 2nd hour but it was done well in advance. It really didn't make any sense to have 2 episodes that weren't connected. If anything it was confusing to the audience.

I'd love to have some clarity on Arthur's plan. What's the point of a whole Excalibur, they haven't really said beyond Emma's contrived plan.

I thought Ruby looked a little different, I thought the actress had gained a little weight (which is good).

Overall, I'm still really disappointed in how things are turning out. Poor Emma, Poor Hook why are they constantly put through the ringer?

[HoodlumSheep]

Was Grumpy there in the diner with everyone? If not then I am headcanoning that he and Lancelot went on a mission (starting in 5x06) to de-sand Guinevere. Obviously they must fail, but at least it would explain their random absence.

[Babs Gordon]

I can't believe they made me watch the lame Prince Neal introduction announcement at granny's again. Too bad Ruby didn't use her magic bean to go to New Orleans so she could hang out with Hayley and the woofs on The Originals.

 

The only thing I could think about during this scene was how Emma and Hook were outside making out on Granny's patio and they were so happy...  *sobs*

[Rumsy4]

Emma forced Killian to become the darkest villain of them all—The Dark One—against his free will. In exchange, Emma immediately became The Dark One as well. If you force someone to become a villain, you become a villain yourself. Quid pro quo.

I think that makes sense. And I agree that it was a selfish choice on Emma's part.

[Randomosity]

I think that makes sense. And I agree that it was a selfish choice on Emma's part.

 

Perhaps we could spin it that she was actually doing him a favor - I mean, he's spent a lot of years chasing after the dark one. Now he doesn't have to anymore since he IS the dark one. Ta-da! See, she really just made his life easier. It's all good!

 

...except, no. Sigh.

[Camera One]

Of course, the message in "Birth" was that "Newsflash! Emma is selfish".  What new thing did we learn about Emma's psyche from this?  Nothing.  Emma has let down her wall so far and she loves so deeply that she would condemn the world to two Dark Ones.  Whoop-de-doo.  The whole main-character-gets-a-mortal-wound-but-lives has been hugely overplayed.  I felt more manipulated emotionally than warmed to the bottom of my heart.  Would she have done the same thing if Henry, or her parents were the ones dying?  Why not have them all be "killed" by Arthur, so everyone could become The Dark One for the grand finale in a few weeks?  Next time, Dark Emma goes back to the formation of the Earth and puts her and Hook's darkness in Pandora's Box, which opens and that's why we have evil in this world?

Edited November 16, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Of course, the message in "Birth" was that "Newsflash! Emma is selfish".  What new thing did we learn about Emma's psyche from this?  Nothing.  Emma has let down her wall so far and she loves so deeply that she would condemn the world to two Dark Ones.  Whoop-de-doo.  The whole main-character-gets-a-moral-wound-but-lives has been hugely overplayed.  I felt more manipulated emotionally than warmed to the bottom of my heart.  Would she have done the same thing if Henry, or her parents were the ones dying?  Why not have them all be "killed" by Arthur, so everyone could become The Dark One for the grand finale in two weeks?

 

But she's the Dark One, so that's expected. Besides, her reaction is very human, and we don't even know what would've happened to her with that loss, or any loss really. Maybe she would've truly embraced the darkness, and lost all of herself in that. 

 

I really think she believed in that moment that she and Hook could conquer this thing together. I think her biggest mistake was not telling him the truth sooner. 

 

I understand her motivation. I would've sold my soul to the devil to get my sister back.

[Panopticon]

I don't get that whole scene with Regina and Emma about the darkness "feeling good, indulging every impulse, wielding great power"... couldn't Emma already do half that stuff using Light Magic?  Isn't Regina still able to do pretty much whatever she wants?  Why would Emma need Dark Magic to tie Zelena to a tree... magic so weak that ARTHUR could break the bonds.  What the hell?  

 

I was downright confused. I never saw one moment in Camelot where Emma used darkness to feel good, indulge her impulses, or wield great power.

 

Sure, she felt good a few times, most notably when she was rolling around with Hook in the field of flowers. But that had nothing to do with magic or power or darkness. And most of the time she's been downright miserable-- frantically fighting the voices in her head, unable to rest, afraid for her family's safety. 

 

Prior to this episode, the worst thing she did with her dark magic was take a girl's heart and use it to make her give Henry the old "let's just be friends speech." But that did not make Emma feel good (quite the opposite) and it wasn't an impulse (it was part of a larger plan to save everyone). 

[kili]

So, Hook is the only person to become the Dark One that had it forced on him. You would think that would buy him some time with a white cloak, but he immediately gets dressed in a very dark, very thick cloak. Even Nimue's cloak wasn't so heavy. Is that because he had some dark spots on his heart or is it because he has had his free choice completely removed?

 

Emma and Hook are the only two to become Dark Ones without killing somebody, but the jury is still out on whether Emma killed Merlin to make Hook the Dark One. I'm thinking he's still alive to make his Voice Mail. HIs Voice Mail of epic uselessness. 

 

Emma gave Hook a direct order to not put his life at risk (it was pretty clear) while she was holding the sword. How was he then able to jump off of a building in complete disregard of being controlled by the sword? Was it because his life really wasn't at risk? But, he did not know that, so the sword should have stopped him.

 

is the grail inherently evil and the only reason that Merlin was not evil was because he was so nice to begin with? If he is full of dark goo and putting that goo in Hook makes him evil, that would seem to indicate that there isn't much good in that magic after all.

 

Do you mean that if Arthur wasn't so afraid of people laughing at his half-sword, he could have ruled the world with it? One little scratch from Excalibur and you are a goner. He could have just gone around vanquishing everybody.

 

I think Arthur is a dill hole, but I'm not going to hold King Fergus's death against him. You go to battle and you might get killed. What did Merida think the battle was about? A picnic? Didn't her father make it clear to her when he pointed out that the men were writing their wills (after she mocked them for writing love letters?). Did she think her father was just hugging those other soldiers? Did she think her arrow was going to pin a flower on Arthur? I get being upset that your father died, but Arthur wasn't the six-fingered man in this episode. And didn't she swear off revenge already twice this season (once after Emma spared her and once after Belle showed her how to rally the troops?). Now she is back in revenge mode. Maybe she should be the next Dark One because she's a revenging kind of gal.

Edited November 16, 2015 by kili

[HoodlumSheep]

Im kind of torn. I'm actually happy that Emma decided to think of herself and be selfish for once. On the other hand, now everything's blowing up in their (our?) faces.

I've been enjoying this season so much. The ending is getting messier, but I can't bring myself to loathe it like the mess that was 4b (although 4b was sloppy throughout the entire season). Like, this episode had me yelling at the tv screen in a good way for once.

[YaddaYadda]

Emma and Hook are the only two to become Dark Ones without killing somebody, but the jury is still out on whether Emma killed Merlin to make Hook the Dark One. I'm thinking he's still alive to make his Voice Mail. HIs Voice Mail of uselessness.

 

She didn't kill Merlin, she just took that darkness out of him when she untethered him from Excalibur. She essentially returned Merlin to what he used to be before Arthur's control, and being forced to do those things.

Emma gave Hook a direct order to not put his life at risk (it was pretty clear) while she was holding the sword. How was he then able to jump off of a building in complete disregard of being controlled by the sword? Was it because his life really wasn't at risk?

 

Emma told Arthur that a whole sword doesn't control anyone. So you have 2 Dark Ones that cannot be controlled.

[mjgchick]

Emma basically did what Rumple couldn't do times two. She was able to untether herself, Hook and Merlin from the sword/dagger and before that she and Merlin were able to fight against the darkness. What does that say about him?

[Primetimer]

In a double episode of Once Upon A Time, some old favorites return, and some new not-so-favorites continue to try to justify their existence on the show. Ready Part 1!

Read the story

[Curio]

Would she have done the same thing if Henry, or her parents were the ones dying? Why not have them all be "killed" by Arthur, so everyone could become The Dark One for the grand finale in two weeks?

 

Emma's biggest character flaw is that she's too willing to go to great extremes to protect her family, so yes, she might have done the same thing for Henry or her parents. But the decision for it to be Hook is a narrative choice by the writers, and in my opinion, the best way to conclude his journey with the Dark One and the most emotionally resonant for Emma's character. Out of the entire main cast, Hook is the one character (besides Rumple) who was introduced to the show because of his ties with the Dark One. His first episode wasn't an adventure with Emma, it was an episode with The Crocodile/Dark One. For hundreds of years, he bided his time in Neverland trying to find a way to destroy the Dark One. Throughout all of Season 2B, he was plotting to destroy the Dark One in Storybrooke. In Season 3, he had to decide to let the Dark One aboard his ship, and ultimately changed for the better when he stopped focusing on the Dark One and wanted to be a part of something bigger with Emma and her family. 4A was all about the Dark One manipulating and controlling Hook's heart, and we were again told how Hook supposedly knew the Dark One better than anyone because he was able to call Rumple out on his fake dagger lies. And then in the 4B finale, Hook had to deal with the ultimate irony of watching his girlfriend choose to become the thing he hated for centuries. Hook spent hundreds of years chasing down a way to destroy the Dark One, and throughout 5A, we've been shown how he has to do the exact opposite and fight to find a way to save the Dark One.

 

Because Killian's character and motivation throughout the entire series has been tied to the Dark One mythology, and the fact that he's Emma's True Love™, from a storytelling standpoint, it had to be him to die and become the new Dark One. No one else would have had the same impact not only on their personal character growth (Hero Killian Jones Lieutenant → Villain Killian Jones Pirate → Villain Captain Hook with a Vengeance against the Dark One → Hero Captain Hook in love with the Dark One → Unwilling Villain Dark One), but also impacted Emma's character the most (besides Henry, I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Emma is the most invested in Killian emotionally). If we thought the writers were clever when they ironically made Emma the thing Hook hates the most, they just upped the ante and also made him the thing he hates most. So sure, I guess the writers could have turned any of Emma's loved ones into a Dark One, but it wouldn't have impacted any other character as strongly as Hook just because he's the one with the most Dark One history tied to his character. For characters like Henry, Charming, or Snow, there wouldn't have been the same kind of literary irony or emotional impact because they've never been ingrained in the Dark One history as much. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by Curio

[kili]

What does that say about him?

I'm afraid to say anything because I know they are going to make Hook 10 times worse than Rumple ever was. If Emma has to do the Dark Curse to stop Hook, whatever he does must be pretty serious. Add in the fact that we know he is going around fighting a crippled man with no magic and no fighting skills for a revenge that he'd sworn off earlier and Killian is a very, very bad man. 

 

If Emma and Merlin are able to not turn dark and to fight off the control of the sword, that means that Hook's redemption was paper-thin. I know that A&E like to show that everybody is the same, but it would be nice if some characters had some redemption. If Rumple is guilty of his sins, how much guiltier is Hook? Hook knows better. He knows what the dark curses can do. He knows it needs to be fought. Yet he comes out of the dark goo completely black and goes to town. At least Rumple could naively believe that he could pull back. That he was just doing it for the greater good. I see no element of greater good in any of Hook's post-Coyote-on-a-cliff moments. He's all revenge and anger and hurting Emma. At least Rumple still loved his son.

 

If Emma and the others manage to kill Hook, he needs to stay dead. If they decide they are guilty of him turning dark and that's why the try to rescue him, he needs to tell them he should stay in Hell. His only redemption is to say that he needs to stay dead so he can stop harming people because he cannot be trusted not to do it otherwise. He had all the support systems and knew how to fight the Dark One, but he choses not to do so.

 

I love the Hook character that's in my head. The one that had redemption. But that is not the character that A&E chose to write. On Grimm, a character was tricked into turning dark through no fault of her own, but the writers had her do such awful things, the fans cannot forgive her. I think A&E may have made the same mistake.

 

IMO, the only way to save Hook as a character is for his Dark One to be constantly trying to get people to kill him (which, there is a slim possibility that is what he is doing with Rumple, but he should have given Rumple Excalibur).

Edited November 16, 2015 by kili

[maryle]

Really late to the party, I have watched the first hour. I will watch the Mulan rouge episode later.

Yes!! I loved the episode et yes, it was a real CS centric, but Regina, Merlin, Rumple and Snowing had some interesting moment too.

People choose to overlook it. In 5x6 it was almost Rumbelle+Merida.

Pro;

I felt the snowing dilemma and concern about DS when Regina went to Emma house a little bit. I guess I have that low standard for them.

Merlin. Its the first time I am really sad that a character will be leaving soon. I am hoping Merlin will be back in some way, even just as a spirit.

CS work well with the fluff, but they are also kill it as angsty lovers

I have to gave kudos to Jen and Colin because sometime the chemistry can be good in one aspect and charicatural in the angsty stuff. This season, I discover that Jen and Colin work well as a couple and as adversaries with emotional baggage.

The Con;

First, I am so tired of the hate and blame in the fandom toward CS fans. My experience as viewers have been affected by it this week.

I felt I should be ashamed to love CS ( rape culture) and I should worry about any others Emma relationships except her romantic one. Maybe I will have to cut more the Fandom drama more than I already do. They touched me this week and I will not let them ruin it for me.

Emma and Regina. No!! I felt she was abusing Emma. Hate the scene, a real friend do push a traumatise person until this person is ready to open up. It is dangerous!!

[HoodlumSheep]

Emma's biggest character flaw is that she's too willing to go to great extremes to protect her family, so yes, she might have done the same thing for Henry or her parents. But the decision for it to be Hook is a narrative choice by the writers, and in my opinion, the best way to conclude his journey with the Dark One and the most emotionally resonant for Emma's character. Out of the entire main cast, Hook is the one character (besides Rumple) who was introduced to the show because of his ties with the Dark One. His first episode wasn't an adventure with Emma, it was an episode with The Crocodile/Dark One. For hundreds of years, he bided his time in Neverland trying to find a way to destroy the Dark One. Throughout all of Season 2B, he was plotting to destroy the Dark One in Storybrooke. In Season 3, he had to decide to let the Dark One aboard his ship, and ultimately changed for the better when he stopped focusing on the Dark One and wanted to be a part of something bigger with Emma and her family. 4A was all about the Dark One manipulating and controlling Hook's heart, and we were again told that Hook supposedly knew the Dark One better than anyone because he was able to call Rumple out on his fake dagger lies. And then in the 4B finale, Hook has to deal with the ultimate irony of watching his girlfriend choose to become the thing he hated for centuries. Hook spent hundreds of years chasing down a way to destroy the Dark One, and throughout 5A, we've been shown how he has to do the exact opposite and fight to find a way to save the Dark One.

Because Killian's character and motivation throughout the entire series has been tied to the Dark One mythology, and the fact that he's Emma's True Love™, from a storytelling standpoint, it had to be him to die and become the new Dark One. No one else would have had the same impact not only on their personal character growth (Hero Killian Jones Lieutenant → Villain Killian Jones Pirate → Villain Captain Hook with a Vengeance against the Dark One → Hero Captain Hook in love with the Dark One → Unwilling Villain Dark One), but also impacting Emma's character the most (besides Henry, I think it's pretty obvious at this point Emma that is most deeply invested in Killian emotionally). If we thought the writers were clever when they ironically made Emma the thing Hook hates the most, they just upped the ante and also made him the thing he hates most. So sure, I guess the writers could have made any of Emma's loved ones into a Dark One, but it wouldn't have impacted any other character as strongly as Hook just because he's the one with the most Dark One history tied to his character. For characters like Henry, Charming, or Snow, there wouldn't have been the same kind of literary irony or emotional impact because they've never been ingrained in the Dark One history as much.

Bless your entire post, Curio. Bless it.

*sobs*

Edited November 16, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Rumsy4]

The Con;

First, I am so tired of the hate and blame in the fandom toward CS fans. My experience as viewers have been affected by it this week.

 

Better to stay away than let fandrama affect your enjoyment of the show!

 

I'm afraid to say anything because I know they are going to make Hook 10 times worse than Rumple ever was. If Emma has to do the Dark Curse to stop Hook, whatever he does must be pretty serious.

 

I think we need to wait and see what happens. I'm still cautiously optimistic. We don't know who casts the Dark Curse yet. It could have been Hook (not that it's better). I find it hard to believe Hook would have gone on a mass-murdering rampage in three weeks. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by Rumsy4

[HoodlumSheep]

Better to stay away than let fandrama affect your enjoyment of the show!

I think we need to wait and see what happens. I'm still cautiously optimistic. We don't know who casts the Dark Curse yet. It could have been Hook (not that it's better). I find it hard to believe Hook would have gone on a mass-murdering rampage in three weeks.

While I think a rampage would be extreme, I can kind of see him do more damage than Emma though. He was a villain for 200 yrs, and would be more susceptible to evil (even though he's fought so hard to get to a good place), Emma went against his wishes to let him die rather than take the darkness. He'll have some anger, and combined with his quick temper that could cause him to go evil sooner. Also, I think Hook has quite a few walls up still and the fact that he has major guilt complex issues and stuff.

Honestly, I can see Hook blow a casket. I don't want him to do too many horrible things, but I feel like he has a lot of internalized issues that could easily become...externalized due to the added Darkness. Also you have the pressures of whatever goes down in Camelot too.

[Chaos Theory]

I know it is an UO around here but every time I hear Hook. Speak to Emma I hear "Love Me, Love Me. After All I have Done for you why don't you love me?" If they didn't have actual chemistry I would outright hate them but I do prefer Dark One Hook because now he has more of a actual purpose beside Love Me Hook.

As for who cast the curse it could have easily been Hook to get at his eternal enemy Rumple and it was Emma who cast the forget spell (she was making a whole lot of dream catchers in Camalot instead of sleeping) and is now trying to reverse what she did in Camelot.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Shanna Marie]

This episode plus serious cold medicine gave me some very interesting nightmares. For instance, I dreamed that since Good Killian is snarky and swaggery and wears black leather, they had to go the opposite direction with Darth Killian, so he was all nerdy, with his hair slicked back and wearing a white polo shirt buttoned up to the top button and tucked into high-waisted 80s-style jeans. You can thank me (and Nyquil) for that mental image.
 

I'm beginning to question why Merlin never informed Emma about excalibur creating wounds that can't heal.

Yeah, you'd think that might have been important to mention before he sent them off on the mission to retrieve the sword. "Oh, by the way, you need to be careful with that thing when you're bringing it back."

 

Did I miss the part where they explained how Emma using the flame to unite Excalibur made Hook's wound re-open and kill him? Merlin's explanation was that wounds from Excalibur could not be healed, but that doesn't explain why Emma was able to temporarily heal his wound but that it only lasted until she started putting the swords back together.

Yeah, that didn't make a lot of sense because his wound was healed. It wasn't like when Regina couldn't heal Robin because the sword that wounded him was enchanted so that she couldn't heal its wounds. Then the healing just didn't work. But Emma was able to heal Hook, and he was fine until she started using the flame. And then the wound didn't match. Yes, a slice to the throat could kill pretty quickly, but when he was first injured it looked like a scratch. I didn't notice it until Emma mentioned it. He didn't seem to be in pain or suffering any ill effects. But then the moment the wound reopened, he's collapsing and dying within seconds. I don't necessarily expect spurting arterial blood on this show in this timeslot, but it would have made more sense if he'd been bleeding more or collapsing when she healed it in the first place and if they'd given the sense of there being more blood as he was dying. They could have put a towel on it to put pressure on the wound and shown that the towel was soaked in blood to avoid the arterial spray image. As it was, it looked like he was dying of a paper cut.

 

The way they were talking about and showing his immortality in Storybrooke doesn't really match what we saw with Rumple. It was never that Rumple couldn't physically be killed. It was that his power made it nearly impossible to kill him. He could poof himself out of the way of any weapon attack or could poof the weapon out of the way. He could instantly heal any injury. So in the instances where Emma had to intervene so Hook wouldn't realize he was immortal, either Hook would have been able to die because he didn't know that he could protect himself or his powers would have manifested in instinctive self defense. He would have been able to poof the sword out of Arthur's hand, poof his own sword into his hand to defend himself, fling Arthur away the way Emma did, or poof himself behind Arthur. When jumping off the roof, he'd have been able to poof himself to the ground the way Emma did to him. So when Zelena stabbed him, it shouldn't have been that a mortal blow didn't kill him, but rather that he was able to instantly heal it.

 

As for the not sleeping thing, I think only a day or two has passed since their return. It just seems a lot longer because they've had episodes focusing on non-Storybrooke stuff, so that about a minute or two of Storybrooke time has passed in those episodes. Given what's going on, he might have just thought he had garden-variety insomnia, or else he wasn't even trying to sleep because he was desperately trying to come up with a solution.

 

I found it odd that Regina and the Charmings were so focused on that "she's going to use the sword to snuff out light magic" theory, when they learned it from Arthur, who they've just learned is a Lying Liar Who Lies and who has his own agenda. They didn't re-evaluate after learning of his deception?

[YaddaYadda]

This episode plus serious cold medicine gave me some very interesting nightmares.

 

Yeah, I woke up freaked out around 3:30 this morning after a loud bang on the street. I thought the Dark One was at my window, and tried to wake my husband. In hindsight, it's a really good thing he didn't wake up.

 

Effin' show, I swear.

[Lexx]

The way they were talking about and showing his immortality in Storybrooke doesn't really match what we saw with Rumple. It was never that Rumple couldn't physically be killed. It was that his power made it nearly impossible to kill him. He could poof himself out of the way of any weapon attack or could poof the weapon out of the way. He could instantly heal any injury. So in the instances where Emma had to intervene so Hook wouldn't realize he was immortal, either Hook would have been able to die because he didn't know that he could protect himself or his powers would have manifested in instinctive self defense. He would have been able to poof the sword out of Arthur's hand, poof his own sword into his hand to defend himself, fling Arthur away the way Emma did, or poof himself behind Arthur. When jumping off the roof, he'd have been able to poof himself to the ground the way Emma did to him. So when Zelena stabbed him, it shouldn't have been that a mortal blow didn't kill him, but rather that he was able to instantly heal it.

 

Do we know that for sure, or is it just a fanwank?  We've seen Rumple stabbed in the heart more than once, but I don't remember any talk about rapid healing.  He just said he was immortal and that stabbing him wouldn't work.  The first time, immediately after he killed Milah, he was giggling and talking while the hook was still embedded in his heart.

[kili]

As for who cast the curse it could have easily been Hook to get at his eternal enemy Rumple and it was Emma who cast the forget spell (she was making a whole lot of dream catchers in Camalot instead of sleeping) and is now trying to reverse what she did in Camelot.

 

Hook could not have cast the curse  or Emma would be dead and nobody can even rip out her heart. Even if he is angry with Emma, there is nobody who even comes close to being loved by him that he could use instead of her.

 

His heart can be taken (we've seen it) and he is apparently immortal, so his heart could be taken and maybe crushed.

 

I suppose he could have used the Nimue trick and crushed Merlin's heart, but I have a problem with him being able to do that. Hook has no chain of possessioin from Nimue. His dark stuff comes directly from Merlin and does not contain the collected memories of the Dagger Dark Ones. The sword was split before it was ever tied to Nimue.  So, he should not be able to access Nimue (maybe now that the swords are joined).  Hook's only imp should look like Merlin.

 

If getting cut by Excalibur is mortal, what would have happened if you clocked somebody with the Grail? Merlin sure is one for making dangerous magical devices. The DA on Law and Order would have charged him with Depraved Homicide for that.

[YaddaYadda]

Do we know that for sure, or is it just a fanwank?  We've seen Rumple stabbed in the heart more than once, but I don't remember any talk about rapid healing.  He just said he was immortal and that stabbing him wouldn't work.  The first time, immediately after he killed Milah, he was giggling and talking while the hook was still embedded in his heart.

 

Yeah, about this. I know this show has huge continuity issues, but I remembered something from 3B, when Zelena found Rumple and wanted to cast the curse. The reason he said no to her was because she'd have to crush his heart to cast the curse, and he couldn't have that.

 

So is the heart protected by magic when it's inside the body, but subject to the same rules once it's out?

[HoodlumSheep]

Maybe the extra gruesome gash was the price to pay for all this nonsense. Because you only have to pay the price if your Emma Swan.

They probably should have made the initial injury a little more like it was when he died. But it didn't bug me too much.

When it comes to Emma healing it, I find it believable. She only healed a shallow part of it compared to the full wound. Basically I'm basing this off of surgeries. You can get stitches, but if you aren't cautious, then the internal stuff can still get wrecked again and cause some huge problems. My dad recently had hernia surgery, and the entry wound looks fantastic, but if he messes around and strains it too much (like from lifting heavy things), he can ruin all the work they did on the inside of him before it's properly healed.

So I could see the wound (particularly a neck wound) getting worse (on the inside) assuming they walked back to the diner. But then this means he could have probably been internally bleeding and not know it. And then the quick healing got reversed.

Hmm..I feel like I just talked myself into a circle that makes no sense. But that's how I see it.

[Rosiejuliemom]

Maybe the extra gruesome gash was the price to pay for all this nonsense. Because you only have to pay the price if your Emma Swan.

They probably should have made the initial injury a little more like it was when he died. But it didn't bug me too much.

When it comes to Emma healing it, I find it believable. She only healed a shallow part of it compared to the full wound. Basically I'm basing this off of surgeries. You can get stitches, but if you aren't cautious, then the internal stuff can still get wrecked again and cause some huge problems. My dad recently had hernia surgery, and the entry wound looks fantastic, but if he messes around and strains it too much (like from lifting heavy things), he can ruin all the work they did on the inside of him before it's properly healed.

So I could see the wound (particularly a neck wound) getting worse (on the inside) assuming they walked back to the diner. But then this means he could have probably been internally bleeding and not know it. And then the quick healing got reversed.

Hmm..I feel like I just talked myself into a circle that makes no sense. But that's how I see it.

 

I can see that. It was almost as if Emma slapped a magical band-aid on the cut. Closed on the surface, but still bleeding underneath. Still doesn't change the fact that I've given myself worse looking cuts while shaving my legs.

[charlieboo]

Emma turning Hook into the dark one to save his life was like Liv turning Major into a zombie so he wouldn't die on iZombie (which you can thank for Dr. Whale's new hair color)

 

I thought this immediately!   

 

On the more mundane side of things:  It was only their memories of the time in Camelot that were erased, right? So they all remember why they went to Camelot and why Emma became the Dark One, and everything else that went before, right?

 

So why the hell didn't Hook know that he'd bought that house for Emma?  Or maybe we're supposed to think that he and Henry found that newspaper in Granny's place AFTER it was transported to Camelot, and spent some time there real estate shopping on the off chance they made it back to Storybrook?

[InsertWordHere]

So why the hell didn't Hook know that he'd bought that house for Emma?  Or maybe we're supposed to think that he and Henry found that newspaper in Granny's place AFTER it was transported to Camelot, and spent some time there real estate shopping on the off chance they made it back to Storybrook?

I think that's how it happened. Otherwise they would have had to do it in the rush before going into the book in 4B or in the day they had between Emma disappearing and taking the twister to Camelot.

[Shanna Marie]

So why the hell didn't Hook know that he'd bought that house for Emma?  Or maybe we're supposed to think that he and Henry found that newspaper in Granny's place AFTER it was transported to Camelot, and spent some time there real estate shopping on the off chance they made it back to Storybrook?

I don't think Hook actually bought the house. Emma acquired it on her own somehow after the return. And I got the impression that Hook and Henry were perusing the newspaper they found at Granny's during their down time in Camelot. There were a couple of shots of Granny's in Camelot showing a newspaper box in the background. I can imagine Hook coming up with that activity as a way of giving Henry hope. It just would have been nice to actually see it onscreen. It's not as though Henry giving Emma the newspaper was such a big, shocking surprise that would have been ruined if we'd ever seen the real estate shopping scenes of Henry and Hook discussing what they thought would be Emma's dream house. I guess the surprise would have been that Henry and Hook picked out the house Emma got for herself after the return. But it does seem like this real estate shopping would have happened after the rolling in the flowers date when Emma talked about a white picket fence life.

[Curio]

It was only their memories of the time in Camelot that were erased, right? So they all remember why they went to Camelot and why Emma became the Dark One, and everything else that went before, right?

 

So why the hell didn't Hook know that he'd bought that house for Emma? Or maybe we're supposed to think that he and Henry found that newspaper in Granny's place AFTER it was transported to Camelot, and spent some time there real estate shopping on the off chance they made it back to Storybrook?

 

I caught that, too. Here's my take on it:

 

Hook and Henry probably started this "operation" some time during 4B, when Emma was always off doing random Author shit. They wouldn't have had time to do any of the research between the time they saw Emma's name on the dagger in the middle of the street and the 24 hours that followed where Zelena's tornado whisked them away. So if Hook and Henry have been looking at places for a while now (which is actually canon for Henry's character ever since the Season 3 finale), it's not too far-fetched to believe they'd meet at Granny's to research and have their newspapers saved there. And then once they got to Camelot, they secretly re-named the mission Operation Light Swan and Hook must have circled that specific house after they settled into the castle (probably during the episode where he went missing for the whole hour while Emma tore out Violet's heart), thus why he doesn't remember picking it out.

 

I can imagine Hook coming up with that activity as a way of giving Henry hope. It just would have been nice to actually see it onscreen.

 

Yep, as usual, all the best scenes go to #Offscreenville.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Curio

[Serena]

So why the hell didn't Hook know that he'd bought that house for Emma?  Or maybe we're supposed to think that he and Henry found that newspaper in Granny's place AFTER it was transported to Camelot, and spent some time there real estate shopping on the off chance they made it back to Storybrook?

That's what I think we should assume, because Henry said it was "Operation Light Swan", and there was not "Dark Swan" pre-Camelot.

[Artsda]

This episode was so amazing! Wow Hook & Emma dark ones together on the same sword! 

 

I actually felt sorry for Emma in the memories scene. It's selfish, but I get why she did what she did to save Hook.

[InsertWordHere]

I don't think Hook actually bought the house. Emma acquired it on her own somehow after the return. 

Dark curse casting is the best way to acquire great real estate. Snow and Charming really missed out when they cast the curse. 

[LizaD]

 

Emma forced Killian to become the darkest villain of them all—The Dark One—against his free will. In exchange, Emma immediately became The Dark One as well. If you force someone to become a villain, you become a villain yourself

 

Lazy bastards can't even come up with new dastardly deeds for DS. First she cribbed off Cora and now Rump. That's essentially what Rump did, turn people into villains so that he could be reunited with his loved one. Maybe they thought combining the 2 into one person was enough of a "shocking twist."

[kili]

I actually felt sorry for Emma in the memories scene.

 

After having one retrieved memory blow up in her face, you would have thought she could have found a better, more secure hiding place for her memory caches. It's not like Zelena can use blood magic to get passed her spells.

[Panopticon]

 

If getting cut by Excalibur is mortal, what would have happened if you clocked somebody with the Grail? Merlin sure is one for making dangerous magical devices. The DA on Law and Order would have charged him with Depraved Homicide for that.

 

I am officially adding this to the list of crack OUAT crossovers I would like to see. (Hook and Ichabod Crane commiserating about smartphones obviously remains number one.)

[regularlyleaded]

Bringing this non-spoilery bits over from the spoiler thread:

I agree with the observation unthread about how you have to be careful how dark you take even beloved characters. I'm not sure Killian forgives Emma for this.

Of course he will. It's TS, TW. Everybody forgives everybody everything.

Except, well, that makes Hook a hypocrite if he doesn't forgive Emma.
 
Last season Hook harped on Emma for not forgiving her parents for sticking all Emma's darkness in Lily. He's the one that told Emma she should forgive her parents because they did what they did to her and Lily because they were motivated by love and their fear for her and were just thinking of protecting her, and so, Emma forgave her parents with Hook's encouragement. This situation isn't very different. Now the shoe is on the other foot and Hook is going to have to put his money where his mouth is. Hook told Emma to forgive her parents for doing what she's just now done to him. So is he willing to do the same thing for her when put in the same situation? At least Emma had a better reason than her parents did -- all they had to motivate them was Snow's magical delusions of: maybe, could be, might happen, there's a 50/50 chance. In Emma's choice, Hook was going to literally die if she hadn't done what she did. 

Also, it's kinda funny that Emma told her parents that she would never do what they did to Lily and her to someone else and yet here she did (though, now that I think about it, I think she said she would never do it to an innocent baby, so maybe some there's a discrepancy, but I refuse to revisit that episode to check). But, I will give it to Emma here that in this situation it involved Hook's impending death, unlike her parents eggnapping plot which didn't involve anyone's pending death. Here Emma's only choices were to dark-tether Hook or let him die, so... death or tethering, tethering or death.
 

I don't know what it would be like to see yourself dying in your lover's arms, begging her to just leave you be and not violate the integrity of your soul. In a way she didn't really save Killian. By making him into the Dark One, she fundamentally changed who he was. All the while, he was begging her not to and telling her that the Hook she loved wouldn't survive.

Well, except the real Hook did survive. We've seen him running around Storybrooke all this time trying to save Emma and being fairly noble in his actions. So I think (for the most part), Emma's action (of tethering Hook to dark excalibur) have been validated by everything we've seen of Hook since they came back to Storybrooke. He's still there fighting. If the real Emma is buried somewhere underneath Dark Swan, then real Hook is buried somewhere underneath Dark Hook.
 
I think the difference between Dark Emma and Dark Hook is that getting the real Hook back will be more difficult than getting back the real Emma because he's far more susceptible to the darkness (that's according to this show and Hook himself -- IMO I think he'd be more capable of fighting the darkness than the narrative is giving him credit for. He got himself back from darkness once before, which takes a lot of fortitude, so I would think he'd be more familiar with battling the darkness and holding it off, but TS;TW. And, of course, Calvinball Rules. Because how does Hook go from I'm fine and normal but then merely being told he's Dark One #2 make him go all crazy pants evil? Once again, no logic anywhere in sight. Pfft, your contrivances are showing again, writers! )

Edited November 16, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[kili]

At least Emma had a better reason than her parents did -- all they had to motivate them was Snow's magical delusions of: maybe, could be, might happen, there's a 50/50 chance. In Emma's choice, Hook was going to literally die if she hadn't done what she did.

 

The problem is that the person she saved, of sound mind, requested that she not do that. He requested to be allowed to die. It struck me very much of those families in the hospital who will not let their loved ones go. That insist on painful medical procedures that the patient does not wish to endure. Hook knew what he was asking for. He'd rather die than go all evil again. He'd rather go out loving and being loved than turn into a hurtful being that would harm the ones he loved the most (Imp Rumple stated that is exactly what Dark Ones do).  He knows that he is too mentally weak to fight it.

 

She completely took away his free will. She completely took away is agency. All season long, he's been fighting those who have tried to take away her agency. Those that wanted to use the dagger to control her. He has been right every time and has been able to get better results by talking to her and letting her choose her own path. But, the first chance she has, she removes his right to choose. She imposes Darkness on him.

 

At least what Snowing did was make a choice for a baby in utero that was not actively asking them not to do it.

 

Turning the page....what was Merlin playing at about the sword? He told Emma not to touch it and here he has her starting the spell to unite the sword. Seriously, dude. Do you want her to touch Excalibur or not?

[october]

This episode wasn't bad. It brought up about a hundred questions that probably won't get satisfying or coherent answers, but what else is new?

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the resolution of this Dark Swan business. I feel as if we've had both too much and too little of his storyline, with episodes wasted on filler and an utter failure to provide pay off on certain relationships (see: Charming Family).

 

Speaking of which, what the hell Snow? Where did that 'maybe Emma's gone' thing come from? Then all of a sudden she's outside her house talking about saving her? It's as if Snow has no coherent internal narrative as a character. She's there to say things other characters react to. Snow suggested Emma was gone in order to be a voice of dissent against Killian. Then she talks about saving Emma in order to be a voice of dissent against Regina. Hook and Regina are the ones making decisions in this group. Snow and Charming are right to feel useless because they basically are. This is so disappointing. As much as I love CS, the first relationship I cared about on this show was the bond between Emma and her parents. What a let down.

 

Regina. Why? Why do I even? As much as I find the broad brush comparisons between Emma, Regina, their magic and their situations to be lazy and inaccurate, I went into the scene hoping Regina was going to treat Emma with something approaching respect. I was ready to give the SQ friendship its fair dues. When will I stop falling for this? Regina still has no idea what a massive betrayal of trust it is for her to control Emma like this.

 

I know it's tempting to think this kind of high pressure tactic is best and then there's the matter of the situation being desperate. But I think in this case it was a bad call. Their Camelot journey has clearly shown that Emma reacts best to firm but gentle encouragement and support. She was already under pressure here, adding more doesn't help. This reminds me of when Regina tried to teach Emma magic by getting her to harness her anger, when in reality Emma does her best magic when she's connecting with who or what she's trying to protect (as we saw here with her conjuring the flame after speaking with Killian about their future). This show has been so hard on Emma over the Violet situation, but it is continually ignoring Regina's repeated abuses of other people's agency.

 

Still on the fence where Dark!Hook is concerned.

[Panopticon]

It never occurred to me, even for a second, that Hook might not forgive Emma for this. I think he will, and in my opinion he should.

 

I'm not trying to minimize the enormity of Emma's betrayal. She deprived him of his agency, violated his boundaries, and made him into the one thing he has fought hardest against both internally and externally. She did this over his clearly stated wishes to the contrary. Hook has every right in the world to be furious, and I'm glad that he's expressing his anger rather than pulling a Robin Hood style "I can't be happy about my new baby because it would hurt the girlfriend's feelings and my rape is all about her."

 

But there are abundant mitigating circumstances.  Most significantly, Emma herself was not in her right state of mind. She was crazed by grief and she still had the Dark One gnawing away at her judgment, fears, and beliefs from the inside. It's not as if Emma has treated Hook like his desires and fears don't matter over a course of years or months or even hours. She did one (terrible) thing in one stressed out moment with an end goal of preserving Hook's life and their future together. 

 

She watched someone she loved dying in her arms and she flipped the hell out and did something rash. Hook of all people can understand how that feels. Goody-goody Lieutenant Jones leading a mutiny over his brother's death was, after all, quite rash, as was Captain Jones' decision to grab some immortality and spend hundred of years doing whatever it took to get to Rumple. Maybe he can honestly say that if he had had the means to save Liam or Milah over their objections, he would not have done it. I doubt, though, that he can honestly stay that he doesn't understand giving into temptation in a weak, terrified moment.

 

He knows that this is an isolated incident, not an example of who Emma is and how she treats people. He knows that she had no intention of hurting him. He knows what it feels like to be in her place. He knows that the perfect storm that drove her over the edge will never be recreated. 

 

He knows that he loves her and she loves him.

 

He'll forgive her. And that's good. 

 

(Or maybe I suffer the happy delusions of the unspoiled.)

 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Dark One Singular Sensation
In a double episode of Once Upon A Time, some old favorites return, and some new not-so-favorites continue to try to justify their existence on the show. Ready Part 1!

[Curio]

Regina. Why? Why do I even? As much as I find the broad brush comparisons between Emma, Regina, their magic and their situations to be lazy and inaccurate, I went into the scene hoping Regina was going to treat Emma with something approaching respect. I was ready to give the SQ friendship its fair dues. When will I stop falling for this? Regina still has no idea what a massive betrayal of trust it is for her to control Emma like this.

 

Emma: Hook, I'm sorry I forced you to do something you weren't comfortable with. But Regina also took away my agency and controlled me with the dagger a bunch of times in Camelot, and we're still friends!

Hook: ...that doesn't sound like "friendship" to me.

[Joanh23]

OK I am still processing that episode - I still haven't watched 5.09 I started it but I was bored after 10 mins - I'll watch it later on in the week.  But back to Birth - holy crap I knew it was going to be angsty, but I was not expecting to see Emma turn Killian into a new Dark One even if it was to save his life.  I do think that when Emma made the decision she really did believe that she could help prevent Killian from embracing the Dark One powers, I have a feeling though it's all going to back fire on her and that is why she brought everyone back to Storybrooke without their memories so she could rid herself and Killian from the Dark One.  I thought yet again Jmo and Colin totally knocked it out of the park in all their scenes, and my heart kind of broke for Emma at the end when she couldn't do anything but watch Killian look at the memories through the dreamcatcher.  Just as well there's a 2 wk break coz I need some time to get over this one, as 5.10 is probably going to be angsty as well.

[Shanna Marie]

Besides, her reaction is very human, and we don't even know what would've happened to her with that loss, or any loss really. Maybe she would've truly embraced the darkness, and lost all of herself in that.

I mentioned this in the Emma thread, but I do think that she might have been truly lost to the darkness if he'd died. She may have switched wardrobes, hairstyles, and lipstick shades, but as Hook said in Storybrooke, the real Emma is still in there. I'm not sure just how much she would have been if she'd lost Hook. With it being increasingly difficult for her to hold off the darkness, it would have been far too easy for her to go ballistic on Arthur in revenge, and possibly Zelena after that, and once she starts killing then the slope gets really slippery. Robin would probably have tried to stop her from attacking Zelena, which would have got Robin killed, which would have put Emma in conflict with Regina, which wouldn't have gone well, and that would have alienated Henry. But having Hook alive and in need of saving works as a way of tethering the real inner Emma because it keeps her focused on love. She's not just trying to save herself from the darkness anymore. She's trying to save him, and trying to save him gives her a positive goal instead of a dark revenge-oriented goal. I think that as betrayed as Hook might feel right now, he'll be able to see that once they're past all this (I don't believe these writers are capable of truly shaking up the status quo so much as to keep both of them permanently dark). He did a complete 180-degree flip when his brother died in his arms, and he went on a centuries-long revenge quest when his lover died in his arms. I think he'll get the idea of taking drastic measures to seize whatever hope is possible, and he'll see that him going through this was the only way to save Emma.

 

But I'm still boggling about the idea of him ending up dark in all this. Merlin didn't really have darkness in him. He was forced to do some darkish things, but he was also able to fight off the orders. The darkness was from Arthur. I don't really get how the Grail magic from the sword and the darkness and the Dark One and all that come into play in an attempt to save someone's life.

 

Do we know that for sure, or is it just a fanwank?  We've seen Rumple stabbed in the heart more than once, but I don't remember any talk about rapid healing.  He just said he was immortal and that stabbing him wouldn't work.

It's entirely possible that this is the Nyquil talking, but I have a vague memory of it coming up somewhere along the way, whether it was Rumple taunting Hook about how he couldn't kill him because even if he did luck out and land a blow, Rumple could heal it instantly, or whether it was Cora essentially giving him this same information in explaining why they had to go to Storybrooke for him to get his revenge. Or else that was how I interpreted what we'd seen, in a futile effort to explain what we were shown on-screen.

[KingOfHearts]

Hook should have gotten more "epic" circumstances surrounding his death. Getting nicked with the sword was a little random.