Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

[AngelaHunter]

I don't think the Rick/Jessie stuff was about fan demands

 

No, I meant the Rick/Michonne thing was a bow to fans.

[Eyes High]

When I heard Morgan was returning to the show, I thought he would be good for Carol. He immediately saw through her happy homemaker act, which guaranteed Carol would be avoiding him.

I loved that Morgan saw through her facade straight away. That was the scene was initially piqued my interest in their dynamic.

 

And while I didn't feel much out of the Tobin thing, maybe Tobin was Carol's Jessie, and reminded Carol that she's still a sexual being. Tobin was sweet, but he never saw the real Carol. Morgan is the one who identified how Carol was dying inside - not Rick, not Daryl, not anyone who should have noticed.

To be fair, Daryl knew that something was wrong--"What did they do to you?"--but had no idea what. Morgan knew exactly what was going on Carol. He was also the first person who noticed that she was absent from her customary place on the porch swing.

 

And when she begged him to leave her alone, and he smiled sweetly and told her he would start listening to her soon - well I was teary eyes.

Morgan caring about Carol was very sweet. She really needs to hear right now that her life has value and that there's a way out of her current emotional state.

 

And while Morgan's "all life is precious" mantra alienated many, I understood it. And it's very meaningful that he finally broke through that reluctance, and he seemingly did it with little regret. That's how strongly he needed to save Carol.

Lennie James clearly showed Morgan's anger when he was shooting the Saviour. Was he mad at the Saviour for forcing him to break his code, or was he mad at him for hurting Carol? Bit of both, I'd say.

 

For me, LJ and MMB are the best actors in this show.

Mileage varies on this, but I agree completely.

 

And one last thing that finally put a death knell (for me) in the BFF Carol and Daryl thing

The writers have said, I think, that Daryl feels alienated from Carol because he doesn't know how to deal with her happy homemaker shtick, and you know what? I could see it. His crack at Carol last season when she stepped out decked like a Martha Stewart clone--"You look ridiculous!"--played like a joke, but it seems to have kicked off this rift. The problem is that part of Carol really enjoys the happy suburban homemaker shtick: the peaceful routine of cooking and baking, nurturing people and taking care of them in a way that doesn't involve violence, etc. That's a side of Carol that Daryl just doesn't understand and probably doesn't want to understand, since he's never felt comfortable in "civilization" and therefore is probably weirded out by Carol taking to it like a fish to water. Carol in Martha Stewart drag would probably remind him of all the differences between him and Carol.

 

It's now clear that the peaceful happy homemaker is the Carol that Carol wants to be. Tobin loves and accepts that side of Carol, so it makes sense that she would be drawn to him. He sees her as the person she wants to be.

 

Finally, the last thing to remember is that Carol has always been reticent with Daryl, even when they were closest. I believe that an emotional crisis would make her shut down completely, and there's not much Daryl can do with that, since he's never been one to push her, and since he's plenty reticent himself. It's kind of sad, because they do love each other so much, but it's so hard for them to lean on the other or to reach out to the other person. Daryl and Carol are exquisitely respectful of each other's boundaries, which is great, but it also makes them unwilling to push the other or confront the other when they're in distress and insist on helping them. Carol offers Daryl a gentle "You have to let yourself feel it" when he's grieving, but doesn't spend a ton of time hanging out with him or checking up on him to ensure he's healing. When Carol says "They didn't do anything!", Daryl doesn't ask her to elaborate or want to talk more; he just lets her go. Morgan, on the other hand, has no scruples about getting in Carol's face; he refused to listen to Carol when she was trying to get him to go away.

 

All of this, meaning Carol going through a bunch of shit that Daryl just cannot understand and that she's unwilling to discuss with anyone of her own volition at a time when Daryl is alienated by the person Carol is striving to be, it seems natural that they would drift apart. It doesn't mean that they don't love each other, but it does mean that they can't be as close as they once were.

 

Besides, from a strictly meta perspective, Carol/Morgan is a more dynamic relationship than Carol/Daryl; Kirkman, I think, talked after 6A aired about 6B taking Carol and Morgan on a roller coaster relationship evolving in interesting ways, and it certainly has. They have a very fluid dynamic and a strange philosophical and even now physical intimacy (Morgan patching up Carol's stomach) that is very interesting to me. I also think that they get each other in a way that no one else will. Rick likes Morgan but doesn't get him; he is truly puzzled by Morgan's view of things. Daryl loves Carol but doesn't really get her. Carol and Morgan have an understanding. They may not even like each other all that much at times, but they understand each other, thus Carol pleading with Morgan "You should understand that better than anyone!" in this last episode.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Eyes High

[Nashville]

I heard about the Maggie stuff. So people are upset that Rick and Michonne had sex a few weeks (months?) after Jessie, a woman he didn't love, was killed, but feel Rick should hook up with Maggie if her husband, the father of her unborn child, is murdered? They aren't making a good case for themselves.

Nah - too Jewish.

-- Hedley Lamarr, "Blazing Saddles"

[RedheadZombie]

I thought Rick was cocky enough at that point to believe what the guy at the safehouse implied, that they were all Negan under a shared cover of intimidation. I'm not sure Michonne bought it, but I bet most of the others did.

 

They had reason to believe the Saviors were another fairly raggedy outfit they could dismantle like the Wolves, Terminus, the hospital crew and the Governor. Nothing like Negan's operation has crossed their path over the course of what must now be several years. It could easily have been a handful of guys, a name and a penny-ante protection racket, which is how it appeared to them at first when they were at the Hilltop. They got caught out because they didn't know, but I suspect there may not have been an obvious way to know. Look at the safehouse, at the base they hit - nothing at either location suggested they had other massive hubs of numbers out there. The Saviors appear to be compartmentalized.

 

And therein lies the problem with Rick's scorched earth policy. They had a Savior at their mercy. Instead of interrogating, deal making, and/or even (God forbid), torturing him, Rick summarily shoots the man in the head. It was arrogant, and unnecessary. I would like to think it's one of things going through Rick's head as he's watching his loved one getting beat to death. I love Rick, he's in my top three, but he needed some humility and self-reflection. One person should not be the judge, jury, and executioner. I think Rick will be a better leader when this is done.

[jsbt]

I mean, the Carol Daryl first met and became close to was a different woman than the one she became and is now trying to change. She was weaker, more ill-prepared for the world; he protected her and she in turn was deeply caring towards him. They built an intimacy based on one kind of Carol who needed his heroics, then Carol became someone who was his equal and beyond. That Carol was someone who slowly began pulling away from him IMO, and away from a lot of people, which led to her breakdown.

 

It's not that Daryl never saw the old Carol with Sophia, because he definitely did. I just don't think Daryl understands that Carol is trying to merge the contrasting parts of herself. He doesn't have the apparatus for that.

[catcory]

Someone mentioned the chemistry between Andy and Danai, one of my favorite videos is of Danai at SDCC and she is asked something about Rick and she talks about the scene where she had to knock Rick out after the fight with Pete, and:

 

Danai: Really you want me to hit him

Director: Yes

Danai: OK, I hit him

Andy: After they yelled Cut she jumped on me and cuddled me

 

This is what I love about them.

[LeeMoon]

I can't think of a way that Michonne ISN'T superior to Rick. 

 

From the two minute glimpse we got of her life before the ZA it was clear that Michonne was a sassy, stylish, sophisticated woman.  Of course the ZA changed everything but way back in season 4, Michonne was still a woman who was as quick-witted as she was quick with her sword.  This is the woman who said, 'my shit has always been together' and 'angry makes you stupid and stupid gets you killed'..

 

I think Andy Lincoln is so beautiful and OMG look at that hair that Danai can't leave alone. Each person sees what they want to see and that is fine. When you think about it, if the ZA had never happened Rick and Michonne would never have even crossed paths. From what we saw of her in the flashback, she was a very cultured person, she seemed very affluent and I think she had something to do with the arts, remember when her and Carl are at that house where she told him about Andre, the house was filled with painting and she stopped and studied each one of them, so that tells me that she was involved in the artistic community. And how can we forget that beautiful cat that she got from the King County Café. Rick was just a small town deputy whose life revolved around the little town he was from and who knows if he ever ventured to Atlanta.

 

Michoone's flashback of her old life is one of my favorite moments in the series. She has always been a strong female but never in a negative way. She is an independent thinker who, probably, would have never met any of the current group if it weren't for the walkers situation. But I never got the feeling that she was looking down on any of them, which, if any of you ever met people from the art world, is pretty rare.

 

I would love a scene that shows what Micoone likes to do with her free time when she's not killing walkers, though. Reading? painting? I just want to know.

 

I can't really tell the difference between pre- and post-accident NR. He's aged not too well as far as actors, who tend to be well-preserved, go (meaning he's aged more or less normally), but other than that he looks more or less the way he did before, plus normal aging.

There is a slight difference, but yeah, it's very small. Men and women change in their 40s unless they have magic genes, a healthy lifestyle and a good plastic surgeon. Clean light-hair Norman looks much better than Daryl, though I find him sexy either way.

 

The writers have said, I think, that Daryl feels alienated from Carol because he doesn't know how to deal with her happy homemaker shtick, and you know what? I could see it. His crack at Carol last season when she stepped out decked like a Martha Stewart clone--"You look ridiculous!"--played like a joke, but it seems to have kicked off this rift. The problem is that part of Carol really enjoys the happy suburban homemaker shtick: the peaceful routine of cooking and baking, nurturing people and taking care of them in a way that doesn't involve violence, etc. That's a side of Carol that Daryl just doesn't understand and probably doesn't want to understand, since he's never felt comfortable in "civilization" and therefore is probably weirded out by Carol taking to it like a fish to water. Carol in Martha Stewart drag would probably remind him of all the differences between him and Carol.

 

Finally, the last thing to remember is that Carol has always been reticent with Daryl, even when they were closest. I believe that an emotional crisis would make her shut down completely, and there's not much Daryl can do with that, since he's never been one to push her, and since he's plenty reticent himself. It's kind of sad, because they do love each other so much, but it's so hard for them to lean on the other or to reach out to the other person. Daryl and Carol are exquisitely respectful of each other's boundaries, which is great, but it also makes them unwilling to push the other or confront the other when they're in distress and insist on helping them. Carol offers Daryl a gentle "You have to let yourself feel it" when he's grieving, but doesn't spend a ton of time hanging out with him or checking up on him to ensure he's healing. When Carol says "They didn't do anything!", Daryl doesn't ask her to elaborate or want to talk more; he just lets her go. Morgan, on the other hand, has no scruples about getting in Carol's face; he refused to listen to Carol when she was trying to get him to go away.

 

I mean, the Carol Daryl first met and became close to was a different woman than the one she became and is now trying to change. She was weaker, more ill-prepared for the world; he protected her and she in turn was deeply caring towards him. They built an intimacy based on one kind of Carol who needed his heroics, then Carol became someone who was his equal and beyond. That Carol was someone who slowly began pulling away from him IMO, and away from a lot of people, which led to her breakdown.

 

It's not that Daryl never saw the old Carol with Sophia, because he definitely did. I just don't think Daryl understands that Carol is trying to merge the contrasting parts of herself. He doesn't have the apparatus for that.

 

Great posts.

[slade3]

Good comment.  And you make some good points.  I guess my biggest problem is that I DON'T think Andrew Lincoln is beautiful.  I think he's kind of weaselly looking.  Especially when he's close to Danai.

 

And I honestly never saw any attraction between the two.  We saw Michonne flirt with Daryl and other men and I just didn't get the same vibe with Rick.

 

I'll admit it. I'm an elitist bitch.  I wouldn't last a day in the apocalypse.

Yes, I think it would be hard to like Rick and Michonne together if you don't find Rick attractive. My husband thinks the characters have chemistry and are clearly in love, but he doesn't think Rick is attractive enough for Michonne.

 

I am also an elitist bitch and have been called one to my face, but I'm an elitist bitch who loves a man who looks like Rick Grimes - the beard, the weaselly face, the bow legs, the flat ass, the curly hair, the scars, the big guns, the anger, the despair...

[catcory]

In an interview with Huffpost, Danai was asked what would be the ideal date night for Rick and Michonne and this is what she said (I will paraphrase):

 

Well there is not much we can do but I think she would love to cook him a very nice meal in one of the empty houses, it would be a candlelight dinner with just the two of them. 

 

*SIGH*, the next part is me - then they would do stuff and thangs!!!

[mightysparrow]

Yes, I think it would be hard to like Rick and Michonne together if you don't find Rick attractive. My husband thinks the characters have chemistry and are clearly in love, but he doesn't think Rick is attractive enough for Michonne.

 

I am also an elitist bitch and have been called one to my face, but I'm an elitist bitch who loves a man who looks like Rick Grimes - the beard, the weaselly face, the bow legs, the flat ass, the curly hair, the scars, the big guns, the anger, the despair...

 

You listed every reason why I DON'T find Rick attractive.  That flat ass makes me weep for my girl Michonne!

[mightysparrow]

I liked Michonne and Daryl together (stank ass and all) because he was one of the few people who expressed concern for Michonne.  He wanted her to stop looking for the Governor because he was worried about her safety.  Everyone else seemed to view Michonne as a 'weapon with a weapon'.  But when I heard that Lennie James was coming back, I just wanted Michonne and Morgan.  I think Danai and Lennie would set the screen on fire because they are the two best actors on the show. 

 

I had a feeling that Morgan would end up with Carol the moment he 'saw' her.  I'm not happy about what has happened to Morgan since he returned, especially in relation to Carol.  It seems that Morgan has been dragged through the mud not just because he was against killing but because he dared to prevent Queen Carol from sticking her knife in him. Morgan has been called everything but a hero sandwich from Carol fans. 

 

Lennie James is a lovely man and I hope he's ready for what's going to happen to him if some people think he's interfering with Caryl, a relationship that never existed and that both actors have said is purely a fan creation.  Actresses who have shared more than 30 seconds of screen time with Norman have been vilified in social media.  I saw some really horrible things about Denise/Merritt even though Denise was a lesbian!

[SimoneS]

Morgan is good paired with Carol. They help each other through their competing emotional traumas. I am sure Daryl will get a love interest eventually.

Michonne would have never worked with Morgan. If only because they have different perspectives on how to fight to protect the people that you love and she is for getting revenge on the occasional psychopath.

Edited April 5, 2016 by SimoneS

[kia112]

I think Rick expressed concern in his Rick way regarding Michonne's quest for Brillip. He asked her if she was going to stay awhile when she got back and he was clearly displeased when she said she was going to look for him again.

[AnnaMayWong]

I dearly like Richonne--the way that he looks at her when they are clasped together...

However, if Darryl's storyline dimensions had been properly deepened and expanded, Once Upon A Time, I could have seen Michonne with THAT Darryl. He was a bit of a fan fantasy--in aura, looks, and acts. Yup, he was, indeed.

But, Now--(fine)Rick is most definitely (gorgeous)Michonne's and Michonne is Rick's.

Lennie James is a true actor, but, IMO, doesn't have that 'heat' as MORGAN which is possessed by Andy Lincoln as RICK and Norman Reedus as DARRYL.

________

Edited April 5, 2016 by BookElitist

[Sighed I]

First time poster. Wanted to address the Richonne skeptics.

Danai on Richonne:

 

Continuing, the actress spoke about her actions this season, saving Carl from being shot by Ron.

“It was so clear to me how much she loved him, and his son, so much. She’s going to, you know, run through a herd of zombies to get his son to the infirmary, and she’s going to run out into a herd of zombies to keep him from dying. I felt her panicking. I was, like, She never panics. But the idea of losing either one of these men today, she’s just not going to do it.”

Those two scenes were among my absolute favorites in the episode. I watched that little interplay between Michonne and Denise in the infirmary with Carl many times over, just because it was so brilliantly acted. Michonne's rising panic contrasted with Denise's calm... Maybe she didn't realize it until that moment, but yeah, she loves Rick all right.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Sighed I

[Timetoread]

But what does Rick do for Michonne other than provide her with what's apparently a woman's dream: a man and some children to care for. I've asked it over and over and I've never got an answer.

 

Here's your answer.

 

Michonne is a strong woman.  Before the ZA she never knew how strong she was.  She was the other half of Mike and Michonne and together they had Andre.  As things went to hell, Michonne stepped up, became a leader in their camp and learned to wield her katana.  Mike was noticably ... i don't know... intimidated...put offf?  Not sure, but the way he commented on how she fits in better in this world than he does indicated a distancing between them.  He eventually turned to drugs and the rest is history.  As the show has progressed we have seen so many men respond to the strength of Michonne.  The Governor and his fascination with her katana and his hatred of her for besting him in a fight and killing zombie Penny.  The way Merle dealt with her.  The way Rick dealt with her in the beginning.  The way Daryl, in spite of her flirting with him, dismissed her.  The description of her as a "weapon with a weapon" or "the samurai".  To all she is just a "warrior".

 

Enter Carl.  At first he accepted his father's description of her but after spending time with her in which she helped him in a way that nobody had helped him after his mother's death, he saw her as more than just a "warrior" he saw a friend.  Carl reintroduced Michonne to Rick as a friend.  Simultaneously Michonne let Rick off the hook over his Lori visions - sharing something very intimate with him.  Her status changed instantly and within months she became Rick's go to.  A person he not only fought side by side with but a person who he trusted with his beloved son.  This is no small thing.  Michonne became indispensible to Rick, though he'd never articulate that, even in his own thoughts.  By the time they were in Alexandria, Michonne became the one person who Rick could not lie to, who he admitted could talk him into and out of anything.  She lived wth him, worked with him, raised his children with him.  She was EVERYTHING to him except his lover.  He had his eye on Jessie.  A pretty Lori type who needed him to be a knight in shining armor.  Jessie went the way of Lori and one day, for no reason at all, Rick SAW Michonne.   That she was beautiful, that she was his ride or die, that she loved his children and she loved him.  The kids loved her too and Rick, realizing it all at once, was IN LOVE with her.

 

So what does he do for her?  He allows her to be a mother again.  This is not something to dismiss - it can be everything.  He respects her strength - not challenge it, not be intimidated by it.  He understands her - because in spite of appearances and even personality, at their moral center they are kindred spirits.  He is her companion - because Michonne walked through this world alone before the Grimes family let her into their exclusive club.  He provides for her - go to Washington?  Ok.  Go to Alexandria? Ok. Need toothpaste?  If I have it, it's yours.  If Michonne wants it, Rick sees to it that she gets it.  But most importantly: he knows that she is a warrior but he doesn't see her as a warrior or a soldier or as one of the boys, he sees her as a WOMAN.  She is the woman that he desires and he is happy and proud to be with her.   And she is happy to be with him too.

 

What else does he NEED to do?

[AnnaMayWong]

⤴Beautiful❗

[Enero]

I liked Michonne and Daryl together (stank ass and all) because he was one of the few people who expressed concern for Michonne.  He wanted her to stop looking for the Governor because he was worried about her safety. 

 

 

I think Rick expressed concern in his Rick way regarding Michonne's quest for Brillip. He asked her if she was going to stay awhile when she got back and he was clearly displeased when she said she was going to look for him again.

 

Yes, he did. I won't get into all the shipper goodness, but Rick has shown on numerous occasions that he was concerned for Michonne i.e. when he asked her if she was okay after she injured herself when returning to the prison, and the day after they killed the Claimers, being obviously worried about her when they got to Noah's community and found it destroyed, asking if she was okay after they decided to go to Alexandria are just a few times he's shown and expressed his concern for her. 

[jsbt]

Michonne became indispensible to Rick, though he'd never articulate that, even in his own thoughts.

 

Oh, I think he knew that himself quite a while ago. The thing is that he never had to fully articulate that aloud to her. Neither of them did to each other, it was just a known thing they both understood. It was evident at least two seasons ago, in the performances and in the dialogue or lack thereof vs. the performances. They were writing the interplay around the actors, not filling in space. After that everything else comes easy.

Edited April 6, 2016 by jsbt

[maplebrew]

A new great friendship formed in the season finale: Morgan and the horse. If the horse shows up again in the next season, it'll need its own character thread. 

[slade3]

Here's your answer.

 

Thanks for this thoughtful post.

[kia112]

Timetoread, don't make me cuddle up to you and kiss your shoulder multiple times! I told you I needed your words about Rick and Michonne all the time!

[catcory]

Here's your answer.

 

Michonne is a strong woman.  Before the ZA she never knew how strong she was.  She was the other half of Mike and Michonne and together they had Andre.  As things went to hell, Michonne stepped up, became a leader in their camp and learned to wield her katana.  Mike was noticably ... i don't know... intimidated...put offf?  Not sure, but the way he commented on how she fits in better in this world than he does indicated a distancing between them.  He eventually turned to drugs and the rest is history.  As the show has progressed we have seen so many men respond to the strength of Michonne.  The Governor and his fascination with her katana and his hatred of her for besting him in a fight and killing zombie Penny.  The way Merle dealt with her.  The way Rick dealt with her in the beginning.  The way Daryl, in spite of her flirting with him, dismissed her.  The description of her as a "weapon with a weapon" or "the samurai".  To all she is just a "warrior".

 

Enter Carl.  At first he accepted his father's description of her but after spending time with her in which she helped him in a way that nobody had helped him after his mother's death, he saw her as more than just a "warrior" he saw a friend.  Carl reintroduced Michonne to Rick as a friend.  Simultaneously Michonne let Rick off the hook over his Lori visions - sharing something very intimate with him.  Her status changed instantly and within months she became Rick's go to.  A person he not only fought side by side with but a person who he trusted with his beloved son.  This is no small thing.  Michonne became indispensible to Rick, though he'd never articulate that, even in his own thoughts.  By the time they were in Alexandria, Michonne became the one person who Rick could not lie to, who he admitted could talk him into and out of anything.  She lived wth him, worked with him, raised his children with him.  She was EVERYTHING to him except his lover.  He had his eye on Jessie.  A pretty Lori type who needed him to be a knight in shining armor.  Jessie went the way of Lori and one day, for no reason at all, Rick SAW Michonne.   That she was beautiful, that she was his ride or die, that she loved his children and she loved him.  The kids loved her too and Rick, realizing it all at once, was IN LOVE with her.

 

So what does he do for her?  He allows her to be a mother again.  This is not something to dismiss - it can be everything.  He respects her strength - not challenge it, not be intimidated by it.  He understands her - because in spite of appearances and even personality, at their moral center they are kindred spirits.  He is her companion - because Michonne walked through this world alone before the Grimes family let her into their exclusive club.  He provides for her - go to Washington?  Ok.  Go to Alexandria? Ok. Need toothpaste?  If I have it, it's yours.  If Michonne wants it, Rick sees to it that she gets it.  But most importantly: he knows that she is a warrior but he doesn't see her as a warrior or a soldier or as one of the boys, he sees her as a WOMAN.  She is the woman that he desires and he is happy and proud to be with her.   And she is happy to be with him too.

 

What else does he NEED to do?

So beautifully said, they get each other. The only thing he needs to do is love her and he does.

Timetoread, don't make me cuddle up to you and kiss your shoulder multiple times! I told you I needed your words about Rick and Michonne all the time!

So funny, but I second that emotion!!!

[Sighed I]

Timetoread, don't make me cuddle up to you and kiss your shoulder multiple times! I told you I needed your words about Rick and Michonne all the time!

 

So funny, but I second that emotion!!!

 

And I third it. Hot damn!

Edited April 6, 2016 by Sighed I

[mightysparrow]

Here's your answer.

 

Michonne is a strong woman.  Before the ZA she never knew how strong she was.  She was the other half of Mike and Michonne and together they had Andre.  As things went to hell, Michonne stepped up, became a leader in their camp and learned to wield her katana.  Mike was noticably ... i don't know... intimidated...put offf?  Not sure, but the way he commented on how she fits in better in this world than he does indicated a distancing between them.  He eventually turned to drugs and the rest is history.  As the show has progressed we have seen so many men respond to the strength of Michonne.  The Governor and his fascination with her katana and his hatred of her for besting him in a fight and killing zombie Penny.  The way Merle dealt with her.  The way Rick dealt with her in the beginning.  The way Daryl, in spite of her flirting with him, dismissed her.  The description of her as a "weapon with a weapon" or "the samurai".  To all she is just a "warrior".

 

Enter Carl.  At first he accepted his father's description of her but after spending time with her in which she helped him in a way that nobody had helped him after his mother's death, he saw her as more than just a "warrior" he saw a friend.  Carl reintroduced Michonne to Rick as a friend.  Simultaneously Michonne let Rick off the hook over his Lori visions - sharing something very intimate with him.  Her status changed instantly and within months she became Rick's go to.  A person he not only fought side by side with but a person who he trusted with his beloved son.  This is no small thing.  Michonne became indispensible to Rick, though he'd never articulate that, even in his own thoughts.  By the time they were in Alexandria, Michonne became the one person who Rick could not lie to, who he admitted could talk him into and out of anything.  She lived wth him, worked with him, raised his children with him.  She was EVERYTHING to him except his lover.  He had his eye on Jessie.  A pretty Lori type who needed him to be a knight in shining armor.  Jessie went the way of Lori and one day, for no reason at all, Rick SAW Michonne.   That she was beautiful, that she was his ride or die, that she loved his children and she loved him.  The kids loved her too and Rick, realizing it all at once, was IN LOVE with her.

 

So what does he do for her?  He allows her to be a mother again.  This is not something to dismiss - it can be everything.  He respects her strength - not challenge it, not be intimidated by it.  He understands her - because in spite of appearances and even personality, at their moral center they are kindred spirits.  He is her companion - because Michonne walked through this world alone before the Grimes family let her into their exclusive club.  He provides for her - go to Washington?  Ok.  Go to Alexandria? Ok. Need toothpaste?  If I have it, it's yours.  If Michonne wants it, Rick sees to it that she gets it.  But most importantly: he knows that she is a warrior but he doesn't see her as a warrior or a soldier or as one of the boys, he sees her as a WOMAN.  She is the woman that he desires and he is happy and proud to be with her.   And she is happy to be with him too.

 

What else does he NEED to do?

 

Very well said! 

 

I just wish Rick wasn't such a fucking asshole.

 

Your comment really was lovely.  Why are you posting on a message board when you SHOULD be writing for TWD?  Please make it happen.

[mightysparrow]

I dearly like Richonne--the way that he looks at her when they are clasped together...

However, if Darryl's storyline dimensions had been properly deepened and expanded, Once Upon A Time, I could have seen Michonne with THAT Darryl. He was a bit of a fan fantasy--in aura, looks, and acts. Yup, he was, indeed.

But, Now--(fine)Rick is most definitely (gorgeous)Michonne's and Michonne is Rick's.

Lennie James is a true actor, but, IMO, doesn't have that 'heat' as MORGAN which is possessed by Andy Lincoln as RICK and Norman Reedus as DARRYL.

________

 

I guess it's subjective because I think Lennie James is not only far and away the best actor on TWD but also SMOKING HOT!  All I could think during the scene between Morgan and Rick was 'Never ask a boy to do a man's job'.

[catcory]

Someone asked upthread that they would like a scene with Michonne either reading or painting. While it is not a stand alone scene you can see that both Rick and Michonne do read as they have books on the nightstands, I can't tell what books are on Rick's side but it looks like the book on Michonne's side is "The Mullahs Storm" by Thomas Young, it is a story about a battle for survival.

[RedheadZombie]

I guess it's subjective because I think Lennie James is not only far and away the best actor on TWD but also SMOKING HOT!  All I could think during the scene between Morgan and Rick was 'Never ask a boy to do a man's job'.

I have found LJ very appealing since the beginning. It's silly, but the last two episodes I've noticed he walks with his toes pointed outward, sort of like the opposite of being pigeon-toed. It's very minor, but it brings to mind Bozo with his big clown shoes. I'm sure I will get over it. I've loved the character since he was unable to kill his wife, and I still do. He's got a great smile and voice, and he was pretty hot in that getup and mask he wore while tracking Rick. And I maintain that his accent is dead on. The rest of the cast should be taking notes.

[SimoneS]

No, I meant the Rick/Michonne thing was a bow to fans.

 

I am confident that it was a bow to what Gimple wanted. So many fans would have likely never shipped Rick and Michonne as a romantic couple, if Gimple hadn't laid down the first breadcrumbs in Clear. Andy said in an interview that even the cast was asking if Rick flirting after he joked with Michonne about seeing things so it wasn't just the fans wondering if there was something there. Once Gimple was put in charge, he continued to show the bond between Michonne and Carl. When the prison fell, it is clear in retrospect that it was game on because Gimple took the opportunity to make Michonne, Rick, Carl, and eventually Judith into a family unit that stayed together even after they arrived in Alexandria. 

 

In contrast, Gimple kept Daryl and Carol apart in the immediate aftermath the prison falling. They had scenes together after she returned, but that was basically ended once they reach Alexandria. We know that they are close, but now Carol and Morgan are clearly in each other's orbit and I expect they will hook up at some point.

 

I don't like how Jessie was written as a plot device, but since Danai confirmed all the scripts are written before they start filming, Gimple obviously always intended for her to be a detour on Rick's way to Michonne. We never even got Michonne or Carl's reaction to Rick dating or whatever he was doing with Jessie which I found so weird. Did they not know? Did they know, but didn't care so they ignored it? The whole thing is even weirder when I think about it.

Edited April 6, 2016 by SimoneS

[Milks26]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if the writers want me not to ship Morgan/Carol, they're doing a terrible job. He broke his code for her! Carol had that whole spiel about how if you care about people, you have to kill for them, and Morgan killed for her! Aw.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes!!

 

Tobin is too weak for Carol, and prefer a big sis lil bro relationship that she has with Daryl. Sex would ruin what they have for me.

[Eyes High]

I had a feeling that Morgan would end up with Carol the moment he 'saw' her.  I'm not happy about what has happened to Morgan since he returned, especially in relation to Carol.  It seems that Morgan has been dragged through the mud not just because he was against killing but because he dared to prevent Queen Carol from sticking her knife in him. Morgan has been called everything but a hero sandwich from Carol fans. 

 

Lennie James is a lovely man and I hope he's ready for what's going to happen to him if some people think he's interfering with Caryl, a relationship that never existed and that both actors have said is purely a fan creation.  Actresses who have shared more than 30 seconds of screen time with Norman have been vilified in social media.  I saw some really horrible things about Denise/Merritt even though Denise was a lesbian!

 

I think part of the problem with Morgan as a character, at least in terms of him being disliked, is that he appeared to many to be floating above the struggles and worries of the other Alexandrians, buoyed by his confidence in his own moral superiority and untrammeled by worldly things such as love (except insofar as he felt a vague concern for his fellow man). He could preach pacifism and restraint because he didn't care enough about the Alexandrians to be overly invested in whether they lived or died, and since he's perfectly fine with surviving on his own if push comes to shove; he seemed to care more about the Alexandrians' souls than about their lives.

 

Now, I once saw him that way myself, but I realized as the season progressed that that was unfair: in my estimation, Morgan doesn't preach from a position of moral superiority, but rather from the position of one who has hardwon firsthand knowledge of the terrible places Rick's approach can lead and who genuinely wants to spare other people the pain he himself suffered. As he admitted, he's not right: there's no right, there's only the "wrong that doesn't drag you down."

 

I think Morgan will be rehabilitated somewhat now that he has come down from his lofty perch and has realized that he does love someone enough to kill to protect them, that he does have strong personal feelings about at least one member of the community, and that those feelings are sufficient to cause him to violate his "All life is precious" creed. So now that he's down in the muck with everyone else willing to kill to protect their loved ones, maybe he'll be able to relate better to Carol's dilemma and to the other members of Team Rick (assuming he winds up back in Alexandria). I also expect that Rick, newly traumatized by Negan and the horrible consequences of his triggerhappy actions with the Saviours, might be a little more understanding of Morgan's worldview.

 

Tobin is too weak for Carol, and prefer a big sis lil bro relationship that she has with Daryl. Sex would ruin what they have for me.

I have to admit that I did roll my eyes when Tobin meekly let Rick and Morgan take off after Carol without once suggesting that he would like to come too. He just stood there when Morgan announced he was going after her and didn't protest Rick's order that no one else leave. Seriously, dude? He was probably still smarting from Carol breaking up with him, but really. It was pretty telling as to Morgan's feelings for Carol that Morgan immediately decided to go after her while her ex-boyfriend just stood there.

 

Andrew Lincoln said something in commenting on 6x15 that Rick realizes that he doesn't know Carol all that well. There's something kind of possessive in the way that Rick expresses annoyance at Morgan claiming to know what Carol's thinking ("Saviours' compound (...) that was west. Seems like she went east."/"You don't even know Carol") and Morgan searching for Carol in the first place ("Why are you doing this?"). There's also something a little possessive in the way that Rick brags about how awesome Carol is and how proud he is of her. (Lennie James' line reading of "How's that?" was awesome.) The implication from the writers is that Rick doesn't know Carol but Morgan does: Morgan gets Carol in a way that Rick, who's known Carol for much, much longer, can't. (We also learn in 6x15 that Morgan seems to have been asking around to figure out what Carol's deal is.)

 

Morgan is also the only person these days who is willing to tell Carol "No." In fact, the whole Carol/Morgan arc can be reduced to one long series of Morgan calling bullshit on every single fucking thing Carol says or does:

 

Carol: I'm just a sweet, harmless homemaker.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: We have to kill people.

Morgan: No, we don't.

Carol: I'm totally fine with killing.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: I'm going to kill the Wolf.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: Fine, then I'll kill you.

Morgan: No, you won't.

Carol: I should have killed you.

Morgan: You can't.

Carol: We can forget about the Wolf thing and just move past it without telling anyone.

Morgan: No, we can't.

Carol: I told you not to come after me.

Morgan: Not happening, sorry.

Carol: I can't go back to Alexandria.

Morgan: Bullshit.

Carol: Please just let me go!

Morgan: No.

 

Carol's emotional crisis this season appears to have been precipitated at least in part by Morgan blowing holes in the lies Carol tells herself and everyone else: that she can live with the cost of killing, that no one can see through her happy homemaker disguise, that it's fine to play judge, jury and executioner, that there is no alternative to living the way she's been living other than self-imposed exile, that she can't stay in Alexandria because she's a danger due to her inability to kill, and finally, the most dangerous lie, that Carol's life is worthless and she deserves to die for the suffering she's inflicted on others. It's not explicit in 6x15, but I think Morgan feeling guilty about having contributed to Carol's breakdown might be motivating him to help search for her.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[slade3]

Someone asked upthread that they would like a scene with Michonne either reading or painting. While it is not a stand alone scene you can see that both Rick and Michonne do read as they have books on the nightstands, I can't tell what books are on Rick's side but it looks like the book on Michonne's side is "The Mullahs Storm" by Thomas Young, it is a story about a battle for survival.

Someone on another forum explained the books on their nightstand. The Mullahs Storm is about a general (?) and female sergeant (?) who fight a war side by side with other survivors.

 

Andrew Lincoln said something in commenting on 6x15 that Rick realizes that he doesn't know Carol all that well. There's something kind of possessive in the way that Rick expresses annoyance at Morgan claiming to know what Carol's thinking ("Saviours' compound (...) that was west. Seems like she went east."/"You don't even know Carol") and Morgan searching for Carol in the first place ("Why are you doing this?"). There's also something a little possessive in the way that Rick brags about how awesome Carol is and how proud he is of her. (Lennie James' line reading of "How's that?" was awesome.) The implication from the writers is that Rick doesn't know Carol but Morgan does: Morgan gets Carol in a way that Rick, who's known Carol for much, much longer, can't. (We also learn in 6x15 that Morgan seems to have been asking around to figure out what Carol's deal is.)

 

Morgan is also the only person these days who is willing to tell Carol "No." In fact, the whole Carol/Morgan arc can be reduced to one long series of Morgan calling bullshit on every single fucking thing Carol says or does:

 

 

Carol's emotional crisis this season appears to have been precipitated at least in part by Morgan blowing holes in the lies Carol tells herself and everyone else: that she can live with the cost of killing, that no one can see through her happy homemaker disguise, that it's fine to play judge, jury and executioner, that there is no alternative to living the way she's been living other than self-imposed exile, that she can't stay in Alexandria because she's a danger due to her inability to kill, and finally, the most dangerous lie, that Carol's life is worthless and she deserves to die for the suffering she's inflicted on others. It's not explicit in 6x15, but I think Morgan feeling guilty about having contributed to Carol's breakdown might be motivating him to help search for her.

Thanks for this. I'm dismissive of both Carol and Morgan, but this commentary on them fascinates me. I will pay more attention to them on rewatch and in season 7.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Here's your answer.

 

Michonne is a strong woman.  Before the ZA she never knew how strong she was.  She was the other half of Mike and Michonne and together they had Andre.  As things went to hell, Michonne stepped up, became a leader in their camp and learned to wield her katana.  Mike was noticably ... i don't know... intimidated...put offf?  Not sure, but the way he commented on how she fits in better in this world than he does indicated a distancing between them.  He eventually turned to drugs and the rest is history.  As the show has progressed we have seen so many men respond to the strength of Michonne.  The Governor and his fascination with her katana and his hatred of her for besting him in a fight and killing zombie Penny.  The way Merle dealt with her.  The way Rick dealt with her in the beginning.  The way Daryl, in spite of her flirting with him, dismissed her.  The description of her as a "weapon with a weapon" or "the samurai".  To all she is just a "warrior".

 

Enter Carl.  At first he accepted his father's description of her but after spending time with her in which she helped him in a way that nobody had helped him after his mother's death, he saw her as more than just a "warrior" he saw a friend.  Carl reintroduced Michonne to Rick as a friend.  Simultaneously Michonne let Rick off the hook over his Lori visions - sharing something very intimate with him.  Her status changed instantly and within months she became Rick's go to.  A person he not only fought side by side with but a person who he trusted with his beloved son.  This is no small thing.  Michonne became indispensible to Rick, though he'd never articulate that, even in his own thoughts.  By the time they were in Alexandria, Michonne became the one person who Rick could not lie to, who he admitted could talk him into and out of anything.  She lived wth him, worked with him, raised his children with him.  She was EVERYTHING to him except his lover.  He had his eye on Jessie.  A pretty Lori type who needed him to be a knight in shining armor.  Jessie went the way of Lori and one day, for no reason at all, Rick SAW Michonne.   That she was beautiful, that she was his ride or die, that she loved his children and she loved him.  The kids loved her too and Rick, realizing it all at once, was IN LOVE with her.

 

So what does he do for her?  He allows her to be a mother again.  This is not something to dismiss - it can be everything.  He respects her strength - not challenge it, not be intimidated by it.  He understands her - because in spite of appearances and even personality, at their moral center they are kindred spirits.  He is her companion - because Michonne walked through this world alone before the Grimes family let her into their exclusive club.  He provides for her - go to Washington?  Ok.  Go to Alexandria? Ok. Need toothpaste?  If I have it, it's yours.  If Michonne wants it, Rick sees to it that she gets it.  But most importantly: he knows that she is a warrior but he doesn't see her as a warrior or a soldier or as one of the boys, he sees her as a WOMAN.  She is the woman that he desires and he is happy and proud to be with her.   And she is happy to be with him too.

 

What else does he NEED to do?

THIS. RIGHT. HERE.

[mightysparrow]

I think part of the problem with Morgan as a character, at least in terms of him being disliked, is that he appeared to many to be floating above the struggles and worries of the other Alexandrians, buoyed by his confidence in his own moral superiority and untrammeled by worldly things such as love (except insofar as he felt a vague concern for his fellow man). He could preach pacifism and restraint because he didn't care enough about the Alexandrians to be overly invested in whether they lived or died, and since he's perfectly fine with surviving on his own if push comes to shove; he seemed to care more about the Alexandrians' souls than about their lives.

 

Now, I once saw him that way myself, but I realized as the season progressed that that was unfair: in my estimation, Morgan doesn't preach from a position of moral superiority, but rather from the position of one who has hardwon firsthand knowledge of the terrible places Rick's approach can lead and who genuinely wants to spare other people the pain he himself suffered. As he admitted, he's not right: there's no right, there's only the "wrong that doesn't drag you down."

 

I think Morgan will be rehabilitated somewhat now that he has come down from his lofty perch and has realized that he does love someone enough to kill to protect them, that he does have strong personal feelings about at least one member of the community, and that those feelings are sufficient to cause him to violate his "All life is precious" creed. So now that he's down in the muck with everyone else willing to kill to protect their loved ones, maybe he'll be able to relate better to Carol's dilemma and to the other members of Team Rick (assuming he winds up back in Alexandria). I also expect that Rick, newly traumatized by Negan and the horrible consequences of his triggerhappy actions with the Saviours, might be a little more understanding of Morgan's worldview.

 

I have to admit that I did roll my eyes when Tobin meekly let Rick and Morgan take off after Carol without once suggesting that he would like to come too. He just stood there when Morgan announced he was going after her and didn't protest Rick's order that no one else leave. Seriously, dude? He was probably still smarting from Carol breaking up with him, but really. It was pretty telling as to Morgan's feelings for Carol that Morgan immediately decided to go after her while her ex-boyfriend just stood there.

 

Andrew Lincoln said something in commenting on 6x15 that Rick realizes that he doesn't know Carol all that well. There's something kind of possessive in the way that Rick expresses annoyance at Morgan claiming to know what Carol's thinking ("Saviours' compound (...) that was west. Seems like she went east."/"You don't even know Carol") and Morgan searching for Carol in the first place ("Why are you doing this?"). There's also something a little possessive in the way that Rick brags about how awesome Carol is and how proud he is of her. (Lennie James' line reading of "How's that?" was awesome.) The implication from the writers is that Rick doesn't know Carol but Morgan does: Morgan gets Carol in a way that Rick, who's known Carol for much, much longer, can't. (We also learn in 6x15 that Morgan seems to have been asking around to figure out what Carol's deal is.)

 

Morgan is also the only person these days who is willing to tell Carol "No." In fact, the whole Carol/Morgan arc can be reduced to one long series of Morgan calling bullshit on every single fucking thing Carol says or does:

 

Carol: I'm just a sweet, harmless homemaker.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: We have to kill people.

Morgan: No, we don't.

Carol: I'm totally fine with killing.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: I'm going to kill the Wolf.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: Fine, then I'll kill you.

Morgan: No, you won't.

Carol: I should have killed you.

Morgan: You can't.

Carol: We can forget about the Wolf thing and just move past it without telling anyone.

Morgan: No, we can't.

Carol: I told you not to come after me.

Morgan: Not happening, sorry.

Carol: I can't go back to Alexandria.

Morgan: Bullshit.

Carol: Please just let me go!

Morgan: No.

 

Carol's emotional crisis this season appears to have been precipitated at least in part by Morgan blowing holes in the lies Carol tells herself and everyone else: that she can live with the cost of killing, that no one can see through her happy homemaker disguise, that it's fine to play judge, jury and executioner, that there is no alternative to living the way she's been living other than self-imposed exile, that she can't stay in Alexandria because she's a danger due to her inability to kill, and finally, the most dangerous lie, that Carol's life is worthless and she deserves to die for the suffering she's inflicted on others. It's not explicit in 6x15, but I think Morgan feeling guilty about having contributed to Carol's breakdown might be motivating him to help search for her.

 

Really good comment!

[SevenStars]

I think part of the problem with Morgan as a character, at least in terms of him being disliked, is that he appeared to many to be floating above the struggles and worries of the other Alexandrians, buoyed by his confidence in his own moral superiority and untrammeled by worldly things such as love (except insofar as he felt a vague concern for his fellow man). He could preach pacifism and restraint because he didn't care enough about the Alexandrians to be overly invested in whether they lived or died, and since he's perfectly fine with surviving on his own if push comes to shove; he seemed to care more about the Alexandrians' souls than about their lives.

Now, I once saw him that way myself, but I realized as the season progressed that that was unfair: in my estimation, Morgan doesn't preach from a position of moral superiority, but rather from the position of one who has hardwon firsthand knowledge of the terrible places Rick's approach can lead and who genuinely wants to spare other people the pain he himself suffered. As he admitted, he's not right: there's no right, there's only the "wrong that doesn't drag you down."

I think Morgan will be rehabilitated somewhat now that he has come down from his lofty perch and has realized that he does love someone enough to kill to protect them, that he does have strong personal feelings about at least one member of the community, and that those feelings are sufficient to cause him to violate his "All life is precious" creed. So now that he's down in the muck with everyone else willing to kill to protect their loved ones, maybe he'll be able to relate better to Carol's dilemma and to the other members of Team Rick (assuming he winds up back in Alexandria). I also expect that Rick, newly traumatized by Negan and the horrible consequences of his triggerhappy actions with the Saviours, might be a little more understanding of Morgan's worldview.

I have to admit that I did roll my eyes when Tobin meekly let Rick and Morgan take off after Carol without once suggesting that he would like to come too. He just stood there when Morgan announced he was going after her and didn't protest Rick's order that no one else leave. Seriously, dude? He was probably still smarting from Carol breaking up with him, but really. It was pretty telling as to Morgan's feelings for Carol that Morgan immediately decided to go after her while her ex-boyfriend just stood there.

Andrew Lincoln said something in commenting on 6x15 that Rick realizes that he doesn't know Carol all that well. There's something kind of possessive in the way that Rick expresses annoyance at Morgan claiming to know what Carol's thinking ("Saviours' compound (...) that was west. Seems like she went east."/"You don't even know Carol") and Morgan searching for Carol in the first place ("Why are you doing this?"). There's also something a little possessive in the way that Rick brags about how awesome Carol is and how proud he is of her. (Lennie James' line reading of "How's that?" was awesome.) The implication from the writers is that Rick doesn't know Carol but Morgan does: Morgan gets Carol in a way that Rick, who's known Carol for much, much longer, can't. (We also learn in 6x15 that Morgan seems to have been asking around to figure out what Carol's deal is.)

Morgan is also the only person these days who is willing to tell Carol "No." In fact, the whole Carol/Morgan arc can be reduced to one long series of Morgan calling bullshit on every single fucking thing Carol says or does:

Carol: I'm just a sweet, harmless homemaker.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: We have to kill people.

Morgan: No, we don't.

Carol: I'm totally fine with killing.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: I'm going to kill the Wolf.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: Fine, then I'll kill you.

Morgan: No, you won't.

Carol: I should have killed you.

Morgan: You can't.

Carol: We can forget about the Wolf thing and just move past it without telling anyone.

Morgan: No, we can't.

Carol: I told you not to come after me.

Morgan: Not happening, sorry.

Carol: I can't go back to Alexandria.

Morgan: Bullshit.

Carol: Please just let me go!

Morgan: No.

Carol's emotional crisis this season appears to have been precipitated at least in part by Morgan blowing holes in the lies Carol tells herself and everyone else: that she can live with the cost of killing, that no one can see through her happy homemaker disguise, that it's fine to play judge, jury and executioner, that there is no alternative to living the way she's been living other than self-imposed exile, that she can't stay in Alexandria because she's a danger due to her inability to kill, and finally, the most dangerous lie, that Carol's life is worthless and she deserves to die for the suffering she's inflicted on others. It's not explicit in 6x15, but I think Morgan feeling guilty about having contributed to Carol's breakdown might be motivating him to help search for her.

Great break down of why I find Morgan and Carol relationship the most interesting one of Carol's relationships.

Because of the amount of screen time and how repetitive the writers keep writing her storyline, I have been tired of Carol. But despite that, I find Carol and Morgan's relationship interesting because both of them have something the other need.

My only fear about this since Morgan is my favorite is that the writers won't give him a real pov in this relationship. That he might end-up just being a prop to Carol's journey, when it should be their journey, not just Carol's. I hope I'm wrong because I really like this relationship and would love to see where it goes.

[Sighed I]

I think part of the problem with Morgan as a character, at least in terms of him being disliked, is that he appeared to many to be floating above the struggles and worries of the other Alexandrians, buoyed by his confidence in his own moral superiority and untrammeled by worldly things such as love (except insofar as he felt a vague concern for his fellow man). He could preach pacifism and restraint because he didn't care enough about the Alexandrians to be overly invested in whether they lived or died, and since he's perfectly fine with surviving on his own if push comes to shove; he seemed to care more about the Alexandrians' souls than about their lives.

 

Now, I once saw him that way myself, but I realized as the season progressed that that was unfair: in my estimation, Morgan doesn't preach from a position of moral superiority, but rather from the position of one who has hardwon firsthand knowledge of the terrible places Rick's approach can lead and who genuinely wants to spare other people the pain he himself suffered. As he admitted, he's not right: there's no right, there's only the "wrong that doesn't drag you down."

 

I think Morgan will be rehabilitated somewhat now that he has come down from his lofty perch and has realized that he does love someone enough to kill to protect them, that he does have strong personal feelings about at least one member of the community, and that those feelings are sufficient to cause him to violate his "All life is precious" creed. So now that he's down in the muck with everyone else willing to kill to protect their loved ones, maybe he'll be able to relate better to Carol's dilemma and to the other members of Team Rick (assuming he winds up back in Alexandria). I also expect that Rick, newly traumatized by Negan and the horrible consequences of his triggerhappy actions with the Saviours, might be a little more understanding of Morgan's worldview.

 

Carol's emotional crisis this season appears to have been precipitated at least in part by Morgan blowing holes in the lies Carol tells herself and everyone else: that she can live with the cost of killing, that no one can see through her happy homemaker disguise, that it's fine to play judge, jury and executioner, that there is no alternative to living the way she's been living other than self-imposed exile, that she can't stay in Alexandria because she's a danger due to her inability to kill, and finally, the most dangerous lie, that Carol's life is worthless and she deserves to die for the suffering she's inflicted on others. It's not explicit in 6x15, but I think Morgan feeling guilty about having contributed to Carol's breakdown might be motivating him to help search for her.

 

This whole comment is so insightful. I've been frustrated with Morgan myself all season and it was really bothering me because he's a great character and it seems like such a waste of LJ's talent. I felt like the writers were trying to turn viewers against him in order to kill him off at the end of the season. I was actually surprised, and relieved, when they didn't.

 

Unlike some, I haven't had a problem with Carol's slide into self-doubt and despair and don't find it sudden or out of character. I actually found her character change/development in season 4 (where she kills Karen and David) more jarring; her newfound ruthlessness seemed to come from nowhere. I pretty much just shrugged my shoulders and went with it. So taking this recalibration into account, Carol's current crisis of conscience makes sense to me.

 

I knew they were trying to draw a parallel between Carol's journey and Morgan's, but it was feeling a little hamfisted. Having read your thoughts, I will have to do a rewatch because your interpretation is much more nuanced than mine has been, and I did enjoy their story line in the finale. I do hope, as SevenStars mentioned, this relationship they've established is in service of both characters. Carol and Morgan both, and the actors who portray them, deserve good development and a nice meaty story line.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Sighed I

[slade3]

You listed every reason why I DON'T find Rick attractive.  That flat ass makes me weep for my girl Michonne!

Hershel indicated Rick has a flat ass in season 4. I think he looks just fine in his black jeans. And I actually don't think he has a weaselly face so I should have put quotes around that word.

[catcory]

Oh Rick is one fine looking man and he can frost my cookies anytime. He looks great with all his jeans on and he also looks damn good with just a sheet around his privates and best of all Michonne has the pleasure of seeing him with and without a sheet. THUD!!!

[Eyes High]

I do hope, as someone else mentioned, this relationship they've established in is service of both characters.

 

I said in an earlier post that both characters have been pushing each other: Morgan has been pushing Carol to stop lying about who she is and what she can live with, as well as to be less brutal and less aggressive, but Carol has also been pushing Morgan to care more, as well as to be to be more brutal and more aggressive. It's definitely a two-way street.

 

When Morgan met Carol, Carol was holding herself out as an efficient, cold and even cruel Terminator type who sneered at Sam's attempts to connect with her and whose happy homemaker facade was nothing more than a private joke at the Alexandrians' expense. Morgan, when he met Carol, was holding himself out as a nonviolent pacifist who could comfortably exist at the margins of Alexandria society and who could place his ideals ahead of the need to protect others without seeming too bothered by it. Both Morgan and Carol administered a cold dose of reality to each other in Season 6: Morgan to Carol by blowing holes in all her lies and relentlessly calling her on her bullshit, and Carol to Morgan by forcing him to get violent with her to save his own life, making him give a damn about someone other than himself, and indirectly putting him in a position where he had to kill.

 

I think going forward, assuming Carol can heal emotionally, that maybe the both of them can find a happy medium and meet in the middle. Carol can bring herself to kill to protect without the act destroying her emotionally, and she can reconcile her sweet, nurturing side with her killer instincts. Morgan can acknowledge that Rick and Carol were right when they asserted that it's sometimes necessary to kill to protect the ones you love, and that it's possible for him to do that without descending into his pre-Eastman madness.

 

I did notice that in that last scene, Carol didn't have anything to say to Morgan saying that it wasn't her time and that she was going to come back from this. Maybe he finally got through to her.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[jsbt]

I think that ideally Carol and Morgan help each other find a better and healthier way forward. There is no way Morgan can live among people setting himself apart and cutting reproachful eyes in the town meetings (i.e., when I wanted to kill him most) while mildly battering Saviors about the face and neck. He did what he had to do to save her in the finale and he must realize he didn't turn back into a gibbering madman - it's a start.

Edited April 6, 2016 by jsbt

[Sighed I]

I said in an earlier post that both characters have been pushing each other: Morgan has been pushing Carol to stop lying about who she is and what she can live with, as well as to be less brutal and less aggressive, but Carol has also been pushing Morgan to care more, as well as to be to be more brutal and more aggressive. It's definitely a two-way street.

 

When Morgan met Carol, Carol was holding herself out as an efficient, cold and even cruel Terminator type who sneered at Sam's attempts to connect with her and whose happy homemaker facade was nothing more than a private joke at the Alexandrians' expense. Morgan, when he met Carol, was holding himself out as a nonviolent pacifist who could comfortably exist at the margins of Alexandria society and who could place his ideals ahead of the need to protect others without seeming too bothered by it. Both Morgan and Carol administered a cold dose of reality to each other in Season 6: Morgan to Carol by blowing holes in all her lies and relentlessly calling her on her bullshit, and Carol to Morgan by forcing him to get violent with her to save his own life, making him give a damn about someone other than himself, and indirectly putting him in a position where he had to kill.

 

I think going forward, assuming Carol can heal emotionally, that maybe the both of them can find a happy medium and meet in the middle. Carol can bring herself to kill to protect without the act destroying her emotionally, and she can reconcile her sweet, nurturing side with her killer instincts. Morgan can acknowledge that Rick and Carol were right when they asserted that it's sometimes necessary to kill to protect the ones you love, and that it's possible for him to do that without descending into his pre-Eastman madness.

 

I did notice that in that last scene, Carol didn't have anything to say to Morgan saying that it wasn't her time and that she was going to come back from this. Maybe he finally got through to her.

Oops, I meant to say "moving forward" or "will continue to be" in the sentence you quoted. But yes, I agree she is having an effect on him just as much as he is on her. Their mutual realization was one of my favorite parts of the finale.

[kia112]

Yes. Not only not unheard of, but common/common sense. Many women in occupied countries in WWII took up with German soldiers or officers, not only for food but for protection from other soldiers. I would never judge them. Much as I disliked Lori for other reasons, I think what she did (and really, what did she do that was "bad"? She thought Rick was dead.) I saw nothing wrong with her getting together with Shane. It made sense.

 

I'm pretty sure I'd do the same thing if I were alone in an apolcalypse and had a child to feed and protect.

Aligning yourself with your husband's best friend three(ish) weeks after he "died" and the world came to an end to protect yourself and your child is one thing. Engaging in forest frolicking is another. If it was just the forest. When Rick was reunited with them and wanted to get it on in the tent, he looked at a sleeping Carl hesitantly and Lori replied that he wouldn't wake up. Like, have you tested that theory already? It just looked really sketchy on both their parts.

[RedheadZombie]

I think part of the problem with Morgan as a character, at least in terms of him being disliked, is that he appeared to many to be floating above the struggles and worries of the other Alexandrians, buoyed by his confidence in his own moral superiority and untrammeled by worldly things such as love (except insofar as he felt a vague concern for his fellow man). He could preach pacifism and restraint because he didn't care enough about the Alexandrians to be overly invested in whether they lived or died, and since he's perfectly fine with surviving on his own if push comes to shove; he seemed to care more about the Alexandrians' souls than about their lives.

 

Now, I once saw him that way myself, but I realized as the season progressed that that was unfair: in my estimation, Morgan doesn't preach from a position of moral superiority, but rather from the position of one who has hardwon firsthand knowledge of the terrible places Rick's approach can lead and who genuinely wants to spare other people the pain he himself suffered. As he admitted, he's not right: there's no right, there's only the "wrong that doesn't drag you down."

 

I think Morgan will be rehabilitated somewhat now that he has come down from his lofty perch and has realized that he does love someone enough to kill to protect them, that he does have strong personal feelings about at least one member of the community, and that those feelings are sufficient to cause him to violate his "All life is precious" creed. So now that he's down in the muck with everyone else willing to kill to protect their loved ones, maybe he'll be able to relate better to Carol's dilemma and to the other members of Team Rick (assuming he winds up back in Alexandria). I also expect that Rick, newly traumatized by Negan and the horrible consequences of his triggerhappy actions with the Saviours, might be a little more understanding of Morgan's worldview.

 

I have to admit that I did roll my eyes when Tobin meekly let Rick and Morgan take off after Carol without once suggesting that he would like to come too. He just stood there when Morgan announced he was going after her and didn't protest Rick's order that no one else leave. Seriously, dude? He was probably still smarting from Carol breaking up with him, but really. It was pretty telling as to Morgan's feelings for Carol that Morgan immediately decided to go after her while her ex-boyfriend just stood there.

 

Andrew Lincoln said something in commenting on 6x15 that Rick realizes that he doesn't know Carol all that well. There's something kind of possessive in the way that Rick expresses annoyance at Morgan claiming to know what Carol's thinking ("Saviours' compound (...) that was west. Seems like she went east."/"You don't even know Carol") and Morgan searching for Carol in the first place ("Why are you doing this?"). There's also something a little possessive in the way that Rick brags about how awesome Carol is and how proud he is of her. (Lennie James' line reading of "How's that?" was awesome.) The implication from the writers is that Rick doesn't know Carol but Morgan does: Morgan gets Carol in a way that Rick, who's known Carol for much, much longer, can't. (We also learn in 6x15 that Morgan seems to have been asking around to figure out what Carol's deal is.)

 

Morgan is also the only person these days who is willing to tell Carol "No." In fact, the whole Carol/Morgan arc can be reduced to one long series of Morgan calling bullshit on every single fucking thing Carol says or does:

 

Carol: I'm just a sweet, harmless homemaker.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: We have to kill people.

Morgan: No, we don't.

Carol: I'm totally fine with killing.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: I'm going to kill the Wolf.

Morgan: No, you're not.

Carol: Fine, then I'll kill you.

Morgan: No, you won't.

Carol: I should have killed you.

Morgan: You can't.

Carol: We can forget about the Wolf thing and just move past it without telling anyone.

Morgan: No, we can't.

Carol: I told you not to come after me.

Morgan: Not happening, sorry.

Carol: I can't go back to Alexandria.

Morgan: Bullshit.

Carol: Please just let me go!

Morgan: No.

 

Carol's emotional crisis this season appears to have been precipitated at least in part by Morgan blowing holes in the lies Carol tells herself and everyone else: that she can live with the cost of killing, that no one can see through her happy homemaker disguise, that it's fine to play judge, jury and executioner, that there is no alternative to living the way she's been living other than self-imposed exile, that she can't stay in Alexandria because she's a danger due to her inability to kill, and finally, the most dangerous lie, that Carol's life is worthless and she deserves to die for the suffering she's inflicted on others. It's not explicit in 6x15, but I think Morgan feeling guilty about having contributed to Carol's breakdown might be motivating him to help search for her.

 

Responding in Morgan's thread.

[Iguessnot]

I have found LJ very appealing since the beginning. It's silly, but the last two episodes I've noticed he walks with his toes pointed outward, sort of like the opposite of being pigeon-toed. It's very minor, but it brings to mind Bozo with his big clown shoes. I'm sure I will get over it. I've loved the character since he was unable to kill his wife, and I still do. He's got a great smile and voice, and he was pretty hot in that getup and mask he wore while tracking Rick. And I maintain that his accent is dead on. The rest of the cast should be taking notes.

He's knock-kneed as hell.

[ghoulina]

Aligning yourself with your husband's best friend three(ish) weeks after he "died" and the world came to an end to protect yourself and your child is one thing. Engaging in forest frolicking is another. If it was just the forest. When Rick was reunited with them and wanted to get it on in the tent, he looked at a sleeping Carl hesitantly and Lori replied that he wouldn't wake up. Like, have you tested that theory already? It just looked really sketchy on both their parts.

 

Time moves quickly in the ZA. Shane and Lori saw people dying all around them. For all the knew, they might be next. I'm sure they were both not only mourning the loss of Rick, but terrified as well. Sex often happens in situations like that. Better with someone who'd known the family for years, that she knew she could trust, than someone like Merle. 

 

I never took that comment about Carl not waking up to mean she and Shane had had sex in the tent. The fact that he met up with her in the woods, made me think that was the regular protocol for them. I thought Lori probably said that about Carl because she'd lived with him, and ostensibly had sex in the same house as him, for 10ish years. 

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

He's knock-kneed as hell.

 

Seriously. So knock-kneed is he that watching him walk distracts me.

 

Quote

Aligning yourself with your husband's best friend three(ish) weeks after he "died" and the world came to an end to protect yourself and your child is one thing. Engaging in forest frolicking is another.

 

I doubt a world-wide apocalypse and running for one's life would allow for a proper grieving period. As for the forest frolicking - that's one place they'd have at least some privacy. When life comes down to bare survival, that's one way of keeping a man around. JMO, since I've never been in such a situation.

[catcory]

I would hope after watching this show that I would have some idea of how to survive, I at least know to kill the brain so a knife is a must. I would also have to lose some weight because I am not sure I could outrun the zombies and the bad guys because there will always be bad guys. I also hope that should the ZA happen that I would find a nice man to cuddle up with every now and then. My small little request is that they at least take a shower or jump in the lake or something like that. I know this is probably a silly question but do these people ever go to the bathroom?

Also can the man I cuddle up with be a cutie like Rick Grimes!!

[rab01]

Time moves quickly in the ZA. Shane and Lori saw people dying all around them. For all the knew, they might be next. I'm sure they were both not only mourning the loss of Rick, but terrified as well. Sex often happens in situations like that. Better with someone who'd known the family for years, that she knew she could trust, than someone like Merle. 

 

I never took that comment about Carl not waking up to mean she and Shane had had sex in the tent. The fact that he met up with her in the woods, made me think that was the regular protocol for them. I thought Lori probably said that about Carl because she'd lived with him, and ostensibly had sex in the same house as him, for 10ish years. 

I never held hooking up with Shane against Lori and it didn't seem like Rick did either. I hated her for telling Rick at the farm that Shane was dangerous and setting Rick up to kill him and then treating Rick like a murderer/leper when he told her that he had to put Shane down.

 

Similarly, I thought Lori was right to plan to abort Judith. That wasn't just a choice issue. Carl was a c-section and it's pretty risky to have a vaginal birth after a c-section.  A quick google says that 4 out 10 women that try a vbac (vaginal birth after c-section) end up needing a second section. If I were a woman, I would not  be inclined to risk my life on what's close to a coin flip and I certainly wouldn't want my wife doing it.

[SimoneS]

I never held hooking up with Shane against Lori and it didn't seem like Rick did either. I hated her for telling Rick at the farm that Shane was dangerous and setting Rick up to kill him and then treating Rick like a murderer/leper when he told her that he had to put Shane down.

 

Lori warning her Rick that Shane was dangerous was absolutely right thing to do and it is something that a good wife would do. There was not setting up Rick to kill Shane. If she had not warned Rick, he would not have been suspicious when Shane lured him into the forest to murder him and Rick would have been the dead one. It wasn't the first time that Shane was going to murder Rick either. He was going to shoot him in the back when Dale showed up and interrupted a few episodes earlier. Shane was a sick murderous individual and an attempted rapist. He deserved exactly what he got. Lori's only mistake is that she tried to take one for the team and didn't tell Rick about the attempted rape or better yet she should have shot him while he slept and called it a day. 

 

As for her getting upset with Rick killed Shane, Lori was dead wrong, but based on Kirkman and Darabont's reaction on TD that was just a plot device to cause conflict so I am hard pressed to hold it against her. Darabont and Mazzara both wrote the female characters horribly. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by SimoneS

[Pete Martell]

Time moves quickly in the ZA. Shane and Lori saw people dying all around them. For all the knew, they might be next. I'm sure they were both not only mourning the loss of Rick, but terrified as well. Sex often happens in situations like that. Better with someone who'd known the family for years, that she knew she could trust, than someone like Merle. 

 

I never took that comment about Carl not waking up to mean she and Shane had had sex in the tent. The fact that he met up with her in the woods, made me think that was the regular protocol for them. I thought Lori probably said that about Carl because she'd lived with him, and ostensibly had sex in the same house as him, for 10ish years. 

 

I think one of the problems with Lori and Shane in how they were written was that there were all these half-finished puzzles, like the marital problems pre-ZA and Shane leaving Rick at the hospital. He thought Rick was dead, but I remember some fans were sure he didn't think that and was leaving Rick behind to steal Lori. I know some fans think Lori and Shane were cheating on Rick pre-ZA or if not they nearly did. 

 

I kind of wish we'd gotten a few more flashbacks of that period pre-ZA.

 

As for the Shane death, it's been a while since I've seen those episodes but I thought there was a scene of her whispering in Rick's ear, and the implication it was all Lady Macbeth. That's why I was surprised at her reaction when he told her he'd killed Shane.