Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

[Timetoread]

I don't see Rick as a character who boasts about how badass and strong he is very often. 

 

I felt like Daryl became a pinup and broadly popular at a time when he had a lot of swagger (albeit quiet swagger), while Rick was drowning in angst and suffocating in the depths of Shane/Lori/Rick hell. It was only after he became popular that he became the emo prince he is today, one who probably spends his time looking for old Avril Lavigne tapes. I also don't feel like Rick has any great interest in macho theatrics, it's just something they give both characters. The main difference for me is Daryl's endless moping makes those moments increasingly contrived and false for me. I rolled my eyes a bit when he gunned down Dawn, which I don't think they intended. It was just so manufactured. It's not always like that, but I really do miss what he was in seasons 2 and 3.

 

Agreed on both points.  First of all I want to, speaking only for myself and my tastes, point out that I do not have a taste for alpha male POSTURING.  I think I actually clarified that REAL alphas rarely posture because they don't have to prove what is fact.  "Unfussy, quiet, calm, competence" is by definition a sign of an alpha.  I also don't feel that I have to apologize for this taste or that there is a duel between tastes - all people deserve love.  I just happen to be a woman who likes to feel protected by her man, alot of this because I was raised by a strong, law enforcement, protective type father.  It is what I am used to.  That is not badmouthing any other man and, using the example above, I'd feel equally safe with Rick, Shane, Abraham, Daryl and Glenn or even Carl.  Spencer, not so much.  Tyrese, nope.  Morgan, depends on his philosophy du jour.  PP grew a pair, so maybe. It's not about the measured "toughness" of any of them, or macho theatrics, but that fact that I've seen every single one of them go out of their way and/or fight to the death in protection of someone weaker than they are.  They don't pick fights but they don't run away from them either.  That is the difference.

 

As for emo Daryl, I didn't mind it at first.  Being a strong man doesn't mean you don't have feelings and honestly we've had scenes of every forementioned male weeping (or in Rick's case rolling on the ground, sobbing until finally curling up into a fetal position LMAO).  But since Daryl became so popular with the girls he went from having occasional feelings to being downright angsty and woobie-like.  He's darn near been neutered.  I agree that I miss the flawed, but work in process Daryl rather than the greasy puppy he has become.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Timetoread

[Ocean Chick]

I loved how the show should Carol blanking out Tobin's nonsense.  And they very wisely made sure he was wearing a shirt when we saw him in bed, unlike the 2 couples we saw in the nude.  That way we didn't have to look at his pasty pale-ness.  Carol is soooooo not into Tobin.  He'll probably be dead before she gets back to ASZ.

 

Abe and Sasha need to learn to have a bit of sensitivity when Rosita is around.  That whole cigar exchange was just not necessary.  Poor taste, in fact.  Don't rub it in that Rosita was just a place-holding vagina to Abe after all that time they spent together, to be discarded like a used condom.

[RedheadZombie]

I didn't think the Abe/Sasha scene in front of Rosita was that bad, to be honest.  I don't think Sasha has anything to be ashamed of.  Abraham declared his intentions to her, and she let him know he'd need to end things with Rosita.  That's a lot more honest and straight forward than a lot of people are in the real world.  I thought Rosita's OTT reaction was pure soap opera, and a disservice to her character.   I never for a moment thought that Abe/Rosita were anything but fuck buddies.  The way they never showed any tenderness (like Maggie/Glenn, Michonne/Rick), the way they had no problem with Eugene watching them have sex.  By all indications, they were friends with benefits.  Why they wrote the dramatic breakup is beyond me, but I suspected that it signaled an impending Rosita death.

 

Anyway, I know very few are rooting for Abraham and Sasha, but I am.  Sasha's reaction to Abe's declaration was everything, and I think it's bringing out the best in both actors.  Sonequa was on TD last night.  Someone called Abe's comment a proposal, and there was no disagreement.  Maybe Abe's going to be chopping off an engagement ring soon.

 

I just googled Seth Gilliam and was surprised to see his RL mugshot! Doesn't that get actors fired?

 

It did on the Lost cast.  But all the DUIs on Lost happened in Hawaii where they shot the show, and it was terrible PR. 

 

Ross is another one that wears the scruff well.  On the show, clean shaven, he's a turn-off to me.  I think it may be that he has a bit of a baby face going on.  But between season when he grows his beard out?  Yes, PLEASE!

 

I prefer Ross IRL.  When he's on TD, he has such a confidence about him.  And his impressions make him so appealing.

[Timetoread]

I loved how the show should Carol blanking out Tobin's nonsense.  And they very wisely made sure he was wearing a shirt when we saw him in bed, unlike the 2 couples we saw in the nude.  That way we didn't have to look at his pasty pale-ness.  Carol is soooooo not into Tobin.  He'll probably be dead before she gets back to ASZ.

 

Abe and Sasha need to learn to have a bit of sensitivity when Rosita is around.  That whole cigar exchange was just not necessary.  Poor taste, in fact.  Don't rub it in that Rosita was just a place-holding vagina to Abe after all that time they spent together, to be discarded like a used condom.

 

I'm kind of in deep thought about Abe and the Rosita/Sasha thing.  I know he was harsh with Rosita, but I really feel that it was because he wanted a clean, uncomplicated breakup with no ambiguity.  But I don't think what he said was a true representation of how he feels.  I think he cares a lot for Rosita and would still have her back in a fight, but he isn't in love with her and probably never was.  In many ways they were complete strangers.  What I think is being lost in all of this (clumsy, hamfisted writing, IMO) is that Abe is more than "attracted" to Sasha.  I think Abe is in love with Sasha, and that he feels a bond and an understanding with her.  I don't think he's felt this way in a long time - since before the ZA - and these feelings that have resurfaced are shocking and overwhelming to him.  His hooking up with Rosita was a means of escapism from this world, but he was very nihilistic (hence Tara's observation that he would laugh at zombie killing - but that was because he didn't really care whether he lived or died).  With Sasha it is the opposite, she is something to live for, she makes him think long term (30+ years), he wants to single handedly kill anything and everything that may shorten that time, he's thinking about children. 

 

Much of the problem, IMO is the cartoonish way that Abraham has been written because it makes the audience take everything he says with a grain of salt.  Even his deep thoughts come across as comic relief.  Add that to Sasha, whose character is one of the most serious on the show, and it feels incongruous.  And the unfortunate manner in which he split with the very likable Rosita just separated the audience even more from this character's motivations.  I was not down with this pairing until last night.  In the very scene that was seemingly insensitive to Rosita, I noticed something I hadn't before - Abraham's face had softened, his posture straightened, he looked downright handsome, in spite of the neon carrot top and handlebar stache.  He LOOKED like a leading man.  It was the same thing I had noticed on Rick years ago with Michonne and what made me a shipper.  So, yeah, I've changed my mind on this duo for what it is worth.

[SimoneS]

I am glad to see that Abraham and Sasha have a few fans other than myself. I think they love each other, but the writers are pushing the triangle drama. He looked like a man in love with a gentleness when he looked at Sasha. He obviously wanted to kiss her when she gave him the cigar, but was conscious that Rosita was there.

When Abraham asked Rick if he wasn't afraid of letting someone close, then said that he was also, but it make him ready to tear the world a new one, I laughed, but it was a declaration of his love for Sasha. I also thought it was sweet that he stood next to Rick as he waited for Michonne and said any second now. It was so compassionate. One man in love understanding the fear and apprehension that another man in love was feeling about not knowing if the woman that he loves is safe.

 

I don't see Rick as a character who boasts about how badass and strong he is very often.

What I love about Rick is that he is a charming and loving man, but underneath he is capable of extreme violence and brutality if the situation warrants it. He killed the two guys in the bar in season 2 (my favorite) deliberately after assessing that they were dangerous, but the multiple stabbings of the guy who tried to rape Carl and chopping off Gareth's face at Terminus were more brutal and hands on. I don't that this is something that he boasts about, but he has come to accept that this is part of him after being afraid of it for so long.

Btw, Rick killed Dawn, not Daryl though he has done his fair share of killing.

Edited March 28, 2016 by SimoneS

[qtpye]

Much of the problem, IMO is the cartoonish way that Abraham has been written because it makes the audience take everything he says with a grain of salt.  Even his deep thoughts come across as comic relief.  Add that to Sasha, whose character is one of the most serious on the show, and it feels incongruous.  And the unfortunate manner in which he split with the very likable Rosita just separated the audience even more from this character's motivations.  I was not down with this pairing until last night.  In the very scene that was seemingly insensitive to Rosita, I noticed something I hadn't before - Abraham's face had softened, his posture straightened, he looked downright handsome, in spite of the neon carrot top and handlebar stache.  He LOOKED like a leading man.  It was the same thing I had noticed on Rick years ago with Michonne and what made me a shipper.  So, yeah, I've changed my mind on this duo for what it is worth.

 

Last night was the first time I said "That Abraham is a nice looking man".

 

However, I will chalk up the fail to the writers failing to show any progression of feeling.  When Abraham came onto Sasha, it just felt like a smarmy older man hitting on an attractive younger woman.  Heck, it almost seemed like he was trying to trade in his old piece for a new one.

 

Last night's episode made me think, there might be some real potential in the pairing.

 

Rosita will be better off, anyway.  A woman that pretty, nice, and skilled should have her choice of  men in the ZA.

Much of the problem, IMO is the cartoonish way that Abraham has been written because it makes the audience take everything he says with a grain of salt.  Even his deep thoughts come across as comic relief.  Add that to Sasha, whose character is one of the most serious on the show, and it feels incongruous.  And the unfortunate manner in which he split with the very likable Rosita just separated the audience even more from this character's motivations.  I was not down with this pairing until last night.  In the very scene that was seemingly insensitive to Rosita, I noticed something I hadn't before - Abraham's face had softened, his posture straightened, he looked downright handsome, in spite of the neon carrot top and handlebar stache.  He LOOKED like a leading man.  It was the same thing I had noticed on Rick years ago with Michonne and what made me a shipper.  So, yeah, I've changed my mind on this duo for what it is worth.

 

Last night was the first time I said "That Abraham is a nice looking man".

 

However, I will chalk up the fail to the writers failing to show any progression of feeling.  When Abraham came onto Sasha, it just felt like a smarmy older man hitting on an attractive younger woman.  Heck, it almost seemed like he was trying to trade in his old piece for a new one.

 

Last night's episode made me think, there might be some real potential in the pairing.

 

Rosita will be better off, anyway.  A woman that pretty, nice, and skilled should have her choice of  men in the ZA.

Edited March 28, 2016 by qtpye

[Enero]

I don't that this is sometime that boasts about, but he has come to accept that this is part of him after being afraid of it for so long.Btw, Rick killed Dawn, not Daryl though he has done his fair share of killing.

Exactly. He said as much to Darryl the night after they disposed of the Claimers.

When Abraham asked Rick if he wasn't afraid of letting someone close, then said that he was also, but it make him ready to tear the world a new one, I laughed, but it was a declaration of his love for Sasha. I also thought it was sweet that he stood next to Rick as he waited for Michonne and said any second now. It was so compassionate. One man in love understanding the fear and apprehension that another man in love was feeling about not knowing if the woman that he loves is safe. 

I really loved this scene due to how profound it was. I enjoyed the Rick/Michonne scene was wonderful at the start of the episode. But this was so much better due to what was said but not said by Rick. Great acting by AL and MC.

Count me as another who don't mind Sasha and Abe. They certainly could've benefited from some build up. But I think there's an opportunity for their relationship to develop down the line if they both survive the finale.

Someone mentioned either in this thread or the episode thread that Carol did not have a real relationship with Tobin, which is true considering how she tuned him out when he was rambling on about Denise. At this point, I don't think Carol has a real relationship with anyone, not even Darryl. She's so consumed by her own guilt and what appears to be self loathing that there is nothing for her to give to any relationship. Though I kind of liked the potential of her and Tobin, in hindsight I think he was nothing more than a bed warmer.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Enero

[DearEvette]

 

Rosita will be better off, anyway.  A woman that pretty, nice, and skilled should have her choice of  men in the ZA.

 

Yeah, I think that is the whole point of the Abraham-Sasha-Rosita thing.  Choice. 

 

I am not necessarily  a fan of Abe/Sasha mainly because we got no real build up for it.  But I am not opposed to them either.

 

I am equally not necessarily a fan of Abe & Rosita's either.    I was really rather meh on Abe and Rosita.  They were just kinda there.  They certainly didn't get the romance arc that Glen and Maggie got or  that we are now seeing in the nascent phase of Michonne and Rick. 

 

The producer that was on Talking Dead kinda confirmed my thoughts about the how and why of Abraham choosing Sasha.  She tied it back to when Deanna asked Michonne 'What do you want?" and now that they've had the opportunity to stop and breathe a little, they get to look around and think about what they want rather than what was expedient or convenient while they were on constant survival mode. 

 

And I agree last night was positive moment for Abe & Sasha.

Edited March 28, 2016 by DearEvette

[Pete Martell]

Btw, Rick killed Dawn, not Daryl though he has done his fair share of killing.

 

Right. Thanks. I don't know why - in my head it was Daryl. I guess I watched that once and that was it. 

[kia112]

I really loved this scene due to how profound it was. I enjoyed the Rick/Michonne scene was wonderful at the start of the episode. But this was so much better due to what was said but not said by Rick. Great acting by AL and MC.

 

Yes! My heart dropped for Rick when he asked if Michonne was there. His face made me tear up. However, I cannot discount the way Rick literally breathed Michonne in at the beginning of their scene together. He looked like she intoxicated him. Andy Lincoln is serving it to me in this pairing.

 

Abe/Sasha made me vaguely uncomfortable when he was hitting on her during their mission. It just seemed skeevy; I don't even remember any conversations they had before that to make me think this was even an inkling. Then I thought it was over, especially since he thought it was a good idea to try to start a new relationship while still in one, and then continuing to be in said relationship after Sasha made her feelings known. It seemed like Abe was just trying to get some jollies in. The 30 years line was sweet, but I was still in the mindset of, "Oh, God, no. This is back?" I guess I don't hate it, except that I don't really care about it and there was a bunch of triangle stuff I had to watch instead of Rick and Michonne, my OTP that I'd been into for years.

[RedheadZombie]

*  I was originally going to post this in Rick's thread, or even Morgan's, but I thought it fit better here.

 

I love Rick - I don't think I could watch the show if I didn't.  But it's almost impossible to criticize him without receiving multiple swift smack downs.  But I will continue to give my opinion, because isn't that the point?

 

I loved that they paired Rick and Morgan last night.  That friendship from season one had a powerful impact on both of them.  I really anticipated the two meeting again, and until last night, it's been disappointing, IMO.  I didn't want them as adversaries.  And I really thought Morgan would be more of a Hershel type.  But when Morgan saw Rick again for the first time, and Rick was again covered in someone else's blood, I thought Morgan was going to be a positive influence on Rick.  And maybe he will be.  Rick has stepped back from violence a couple of times.  When he became farmer Rick, and when he finally accepted the Alexandrians.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Farmer Rick back.  But I do want him reclaiming a little of his humanity.  He needs to be challenged - all leaders do - or they potentially become dictators.  CDB has challenged Rick at times, but as a group, they tend to follow him unless they feel strongly about something.

 

I think Rick took some of what Morgan said to heart.   It was interesting that when Rick said, "We didn't end it", Morgan responded, "No, you started something."  Rick didn't argue, and he looked as if he accepted that it could be true.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with a little self-reflection by Rick.  It doesn't mean he needs to swear-off violence and go back to farming.  In a way, it's a checks and balances system.  Rick on one side, Morgan on the other, and people like Maggie and Glenn in the center.  Rick can't continue to be the guy who makes the law, interprets the law, and enforces the law.  That's the road to a dictatorship.

 

And while some find it condescending that Morgan seems to think of Rick as someone he needs to change, I see it differently.  Rick has had a huge impact on Morgan.  Rick knew Morgan before he was crazy, and Rick knew him again in Clear.  And after the goat man died, it seems that the mission to find Rick has given Morgan purpose.  And now meeting Carol has given Morgan purpose, too.  He sees Carol better than even the original CDB, and he seems to think he seems something similar in Rick.  I don't feel that he's necessarily trying to change them.  I think he feels they're suffering internally by their actions, and he wants to help ease that suffering.  Perhaps he even worries that they may cross over into that crazy state he was once in.  It's an interesting dynamic, and I'm really enjoying it.



[rogueprinzess]

Right. Thanks. I don't know why - in my head it was Daryl. I guess I watched that once and that was it. 

 

Actually you had it right Pete. Daryl shot Dawn after she shot Beth. Rick just stared at her in horror.

[Nashville]

I felt like Daryl became a pinup and broadly popular at a time when he had a lot of swagger (albeit quiet swagger), while Rick was drowning in angst and suffocating in the depths of Shane/Lori/Rick hell. It was only after he became popular that he became the emo prince he is today, one who probably spends his time looking for old Avril Lavigne tapes.

I may have to slap you for that'un.

After I finish wiping the Coke off my iPad screen, that is.

[SimoneS]

Right. Thanks. I don't know why - in my head it was Daryl. I guess I watched that once and that was it.

 

 

Actually you had it right Pete. Daryl shot Dawn after she shot Beth. Rick just stared at her in horror.

I just did a re-watch. Daryl and Rick pull their guns, but I thought that Rick actually shot her because of how Rick talked about it in the following episode, but maybe it was Daryl who shot her.

[slade3]

When Abraham asked Rick if he wasn't afraid of letting someone close, then said that he was also, but it make him ready to tear the world a new one, I laughed, but it was a declaration of his love for Sasha. I also thought it was sweet that he stood next to Rick as he waited for Michonne and said any second now. It was so compassionate. One man in love understanding the fear and apprehension that another man in love was feeling about not knowing if the woman that he loves is safe.

 

 

I loved this scene, but thank you for explaining the "any second now" comment. I had to rewind several times and still couldn't make out what he said. This makes me love the scene even more. And, yes, AL and MC did excellent work here. This scene was as satisfying to me (as a Richonne shipper) as the earlier scene with Rick and Michonne in bed.

 

It's funny because I don't really like Abe, but a couple of weeks ago I started rethinking my indifference about him. Not because of his feelings for Sasha, but because he strikes me as someone Rick can really count on. I now wish I remembered what he did that made me start thinking that, but it was something like the "any second now" scene.

 

What was the significance of Rick telling Morgan about the protein bar? The happy, positive Richonne shipper in me read the scene as Rick believing Morgan will not return to Alexandria and wanting to clear things up between the man who saved his life in season 1, and the woman he believes he will spend the rest of his life with. Still, it seemed out-of-the-blue because the original scene (when Morgan asks if Michonne took his peanut butter bar) was so funny. This moment was so sad.

[Pete Martell]

I guess we were really enthralled by Beth's death scene, weren't we?

 

Sometimes I must sound like I hate Daryl, which I don't. I find him watchable enough. I also appreciate that they have never gone what could have been the easiest route (pairing him up with a generic cutie pie and making him the big leading man). I mostly just feel like he's been very stalled out as a character and there are certain tropes they use with him that are starting to be too much for me.

[LeeMoon]

Daryl didn't have any real arc since his brother died, his character did stall for a while. However, this season made me like him again. Him going off on his own was in character, IMO, including him being a hot headed idiot at times. I missed independent Daryl doing his own thing.

 

I think both Carol and Daryl reached a breaking point because they couldn't really connect with people. Rick is the kind of man who just can't be alone and relationships seem to come easier for him. Glann and Maggie and almost everybody else look for connections and manage to have relationships. Carol and Daryl are good fighters but they are too emotionally damaged to deal with any down time. Daryl clearly has a big problem with dealing with lost and is hard on himself for any mistake. I think they both just reached a point where they had to get away.

[catcory]

Rick has been alone since Lori died and it is just now that he has come to realize that he loves Michonne.

[Ocean Chick]

I just want to add here that I don't hate either Abe or Sasha. I just hate that Abe hurt Rosita, who I like a whole lot more than either Abe or Sasha.  I find her more interesting as well, as she keeps popping up with handy and useful knowledge and skills.  She listens and learns from others.  And she's nice and puts up with Eugene.  Now I just want Rosita to find a kick-ass, handsome man who is better than Abe and who loves her like she deserves. 

[Pete Martell]

I just want to add here that I don't hate either Abe or Sasha. I just hate that Abe hurt Rosita, who I like a whole lot more than either Abe or Sasha.  I find her more interesting as well, as she keeps popping up with handy and useful knowledge and skills.  She listens and learns from others.  And she's nice and puts up with Eugene.  Now I just want Rosita to find a kick-ass, handsome man who is better than Abe and who loves her like she deserves. 

 

At this point I'll be surprised if poor Rosita even makes it past next week's episode. 

[Pete Martell]

I love Danai's response when asked what Michonne will do if Rick or Carl die:

 

(it's around 4 minutes in)

 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Right. Thanks. I don't know why - in my head it was Daryl. I guess I watched that once and that was it.

You're right Pete.

Daryl immediately shot Dawn in the head, after she killed Beth.

[DearEvette]

When Abraham asked Rick if he wasn't afraid of letting someone close, then said that he was also, but it make him ready to tear the world a new one, I laughed, but it was a declaration of his love for Sasha. I also thought it was sweet that he stood next to Rick as he waited for Michonne and said any second now. It was so compassionate. One man in love understanding the fear and apprehension that another man in love was feeling about not knowing if the woman that he loves is safe.

 

Yeah, i didn't get the significance of the scene my first watch.  I had to re-watch and then put on closed captioning, because I couldn't catch what Abraham was saying.  But Rick's face when he realized that Michonne wasn't back yet made my heart clutch a little.  And then he just stood there waiting for her, not even bothering to stop by his house but instead just waited.  And then with Abe repeating "any second now."  Oh man.

 

Not to be a Debbie downer, but man, I am can almost see the Grim Reaper stalking Glen.  That shot of Maggie in the rear-view mirror as he, Michonne and Rosita are leaving felt significant. 

[SimoneS]

I love Danai's response when asked what Michonne will do if Rick or Carl die:

 

(it's around 4 minutes in)

 

 

Danai looks lovely. Thanks for sharing. I would hope that Michonne would go on if Rick or Carl died because Judith and the others will still need her, but no doubt she would be broken for awhile. Rick looked terrified and lost when she had not returned so I think it would be same for him.

What was the significance of Rick telling Morgan about the protein bar? The happy, positive Richonne shipper in me read the scene as Rick believing Morgan will not return to Alexandria and wanting to clear things up between the man who saved his life in season 1, and the woman he believes he will spend the rest of his life with. Still, it seemed out-of-the-blue because the original scene (when Morgan asks if Michonne took his peanut butter bar) was so funny. This moment was so sad.

 

I wasn't sure about the protein bar mention other than to lighten the mood a bit. It did make me laugh. 

[Eyes High]

What was the significance of Rick telling Morgan about the protein bar? The happy, positive Richonne shipper in me read the scene as Rick believing Morgan will not return to Alexandria and wanting to clear things up between the man who saved his life in season 1, and the woman he believes he will spend the rest of his life with. Still, it seemed out-of-the-blue because the original scene (when Morgan asks if Michonne took his peanut butter bar) was so funny. This moment was so sad.

That was my take on it. Rick knows that he can't force Morgan to come back to Alexandria, or indeed to force Morgan to do anything he doesn't want to do--his "order" was more of a plea--so he's confessing about the protein bar to give Morgan some closure if Morgan does decide not to return to Alexandria. I saw it as Rick throwing Morgan a bit of a bone. It also seemed that Rick was apologizing, in his way, for how things had turned out; for all of their disagreements, Rick truly does care about Morgan and didn't want to leave things on a sour note.

 

I think both Carol and Daryl reached a breaking point because they couldn't really connect with people. Rick is the kind of man who just can't be alone and relationships seem to come easier for him. Glann and Maggie and almost everybody else look for connections and manage to have relationships. Carol and Daryl are good fighters but they are too emotionally damaged to deal with any down time.

 

Daryl does connect with people. He loves Carol deeply and Carol loves him. Rick calls them brothers and means it. He even liked Denise a lot in his way. He just doesn't connect with people on a sexual or romantic level. Now, that could be because he's just too damaged, but I think a more likely explanation is that he's asexual.

 

As for Carol, her breaking point was realizing that she was going to have to choose between killing and letting people she loved die by not killing. That's why what happened with Denise and Dwight was the catalyst for her leaving. Carol does connect with Tobin--I think she's fond of him without being madly in love--but she's terrified she might cause his death because she can't bring herself to kill for him.

[Nashville]

I wasn't sure about the protein bar mention other than to lighten the mood a bit. It did make me laugh. 

 

It was about honesty.  Maybe Rick and Morgan will see each other again, maybe they won't.  In any case, Rick's disclosure was a symbolic message to Morgan that Rick wanted their parting to be completely and totally honest, with no lies or deception between them - not even the little stuff.

[queenanne]

NR is ok, but Darryl...I don't know. At times I think he can be hot but at other times not so much. He is relatively attractive and now that they are settled in Alexandria I'm surprised more women haven't hit on him and maybe they have but he coolly turned them down.

I do think that he had chemistry with Michonne back in S4. Him getting on to her about "running off" were interesting and I was surprised that we didn't see more interactions between the two since it was implied that they had spent a lot of time on the road together looking for the Governor.

I also thought he had sparks with Aaron, especially when Aaron gave him the motorcycle and asked that he join him on the road. Perhaps Darryl is bisexual? At any rate, he seems completely closed down to any anything beyond friendship.

 

What bugs me most about Darryl and the writing and the aloneness, is because it really seems like he is a casualty of the writers' awkwardness writing romance or couples.  Not because so much "he needs to have someone", but because even Darryl, by now I'd have expected to have him craving casual human touching to be connected to the world or universe, hugs or pats on the hand, etc. - I feel like we've seen him receive one hug from Carol and maybe one from Beth, but that's it.  It seems odd he'd still be bending over backwards to "be an island" after months.  

[Timetoread]

What bugs me most about Darryl and the writing and the aloneness, is because it really seems like he is a casualty of the writers' awkwardness writing romance or couples.  Not because so much "he needs to have someone", but because even Darryl, by now I'd have expected to have him craving casual human touching to be connected to the world or universe, hugs or pats on the hand, etc. - I feel like we've seen him receive one hug from Carol and maybe one from Beth, but that's it.  It seems odd he'd still be bending over backwards to "be an island" after months.  

 

Actually, after Beth finally broke him down, Daryl was very touchy feely with Beth.  He actually carried her around when she twisted her ankle, just because.  He would also sit and walk close to her.  I didn't "ship" them but I really thought if she hadn't died that they might have had something.  I don't think Daryl is asexual, I think Daryl is very, very damaged and needs a woman who is astute enough and persistent enough to get underneath his armor.  But honestly it doesn't take much or long for him to start to care.  He is very upset about Denise because she took the time to establish a brother/sister relationship with him.  For a second there they implied that he and Michonne were growing close.  He ADORES Carol, as evidenced by the HUGE, extended hug he gave her after Terminus and again after the Savior kidnapping - he hugs her, not the other way around.  He immediately went for Lil' Asskicker right after she was born.  Daryl was abused as a child - and I wouldn't rule out sexually abused - and hid behind his older brother deep into adulthood.  Still, I find that Daryl, though his go-to is to be a loner, is a very loving/caring man and the writers should have written in a female for him.  They messed up with that.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Timetoread

[Ocean Chick]

That was my take on it. Rick knows that he can't force Morgan to come back to Alexandria, or indeed to force Morgan to do anything he doesn't want to do--his "order" was more of a plea--so he's confessing about the protein bar to give Morgan some closure if Morgan does decide not to return to Alexandria.

 

 

This begs the question though - if Rick knows that he can't force Morgan to come back to Alexandria, and he's okay with that and with Morgan leaving, why is he chasing after Carol?  Carol left of her own volition.  Does Rick think he has the right to force Carol to go back?  He must, or otherwise he would have just stopped at home.  And if Rick can't force Morgan or Carol to go back, why are the others chasing after Daryl?  He's a grown man and is semi-intelligent and semi-sane.  This whole thing is so plot driven, not character driven.  Ugh.

[SimoneS]

Still, I find that Daryl, though his go-to is to be a loner, is a very loving/caring man and the writers should have written in a female for him.  They messed up with that.

I thought initially that they might pair Daryl with Michonne. Daryl was alive in their brief scenes, but that might have been Norman flirting with Danai which he does (or used to) in real life. I think that they would have been good together, but Gimple had other plans for her. I don't think that it is too late to cast a love interest for Daryl. I was actually thinking that Gina Torres would be perfect for TWD when I heard that Suits was cancelled. She is a strong actor who would be work well with Norman Reedus and could play Daryl's love interest.

Edited March 29, 2016 by SimoneS

[catcory]

If they don't kill of Rosita, I would love to see her and Daryl get together.  I really like her.

[kia112]

Wait, Suits is canceled?

[LeeMoon]

Daryl and Rosita would be hot together, but I don't think they will ever go there.

[SimoneS]

Wait, Suits is canceled?

I thought I read it somewhere, maybe I got it wrong.

[Timetoread]

This begs the question though - if Rick knows that he can't force Morgan to come back to Alexandria, and he's okay with that and with Morgan leaving, why is he chasing after Carol?  Carol left of her own volition.  Does Rick think he has the right to force Carol to go back?  He must, or otherwise he would have just stopped at home.  And if Rick can't force Morgan or Carol to go back, why are the others chasing after Daryl?  He's a grown man and is semi-intelligent and semi-sane.  This whole thing is so plot driven, not character driven.  Ugh.

 

Even though it is clearly a cheap pltot trick for all of the apex warriors to leave their posts to go chasing after two adults - both very capable, I think the idea is that they are a family and these two were seen as running away from home, most likely due to emotional distress.  So the plan was to find them and convince them of how loved they are and that the family will see them through their tough period - just as they had with Rick and Glenn and most recently Sasha.  Still it came across like Wonder Woman and Superman chasing after the Hulk because he won't be able to protect himself out there.  Side-eyes all the way.

[slade3]

I just checked and it looks like Suits was renewed.

 

 

I also thought the writers were leaning toward pairing Michonne with Daryl. In season 3 and 4, Daryl checks her out almost as much as Rick. Now I just think it was the actors trying to show the viewers that Michonne was attractive to the men in the group.

 

I was all for a Daryl/Carol pairing until I read the stuff about how crazy their fans got and that possibly the actors requested the pairing not happen. So now I wouldn't mind seeing them with other people. I'm not a Morgan fan, but I feel Carol has chemistry with him and that could be interesting. I'd hate to see Daryl with Rosita and wouldn't mind seeing him with someone new. Maybe there's a fascinating Savior wife needing to be rescued or something as weird/challenging as that? I get the sense Daryl needs a romantic story line that will challenge him and the viewers.

 

 

I'm curious about the Rosita love. I don't like her at all, and then I read on a message board that the actress, allegedly, isn't nice in person, so that just made me dislike Rosita even more. Her recent appearance on Talking Dead didn't help much, though I was leaning more toward "Maybe she just lost her job" vibes.

[LeeMoon]

I like Rosita. Other than the fact she is very hot, her character has had so far the right balance of both the good girlfriend and efficient group member. If there's something that needs to be done, she just foes it. She is good with weapons but she never shows off. Her scenes with Abraham showed she can be a loving partner. I just like her practical and no drama attitude.

[slade3]

I like Rosita. Other than the fact she is very hot, her character has had so far the right balance of both the good girlfriend and efficient group member. If there's something that needs to be done, she just foes it. She is good with weapons but she never shows off. Her scenes with Abraham showed she can be a loving partner. I just like her practical and no drama attitude.

Thanks.

[AngelaHunter]

I was all for a Daryl/Carol pairing until I read the stuff about how crazy their fans got

 

Biting aside, what I read about fans is positively frightening. I'm sure the actors find them scary too,as they seem unable to differentiate real life from fiction.

 

Actually, I have to mention the biting. I'm 100% sure that had a male fan bitten a female actor on the chest, he would have been tackled to the ground and arrested. A woman who bit Normal Reedus in that way has become a local celebrity. To me, that is disturbing.

[queenanne]

Actually, after Beth finally broke him down, Daryl was very touchy feely with Beth.  He actually carried her around when she twisted her ankle, just because.  He would also sit and walk close to her.  I didn't "ship" them but I really thought if she hadn't died that they might have had something.  I don't think Daryl is asexual, I think Daryl is very, very damaged and needs a woman who is astute enough and persistent enough to get underneath his armor.  But honestly it doesn't take much or long for him to start to care.  He is very upset about Denise because she took the time to establish a brother/sister relationship with him.  For a second there they implied that he and Michonne were growing close.  He ADORES Carol, as evidenced by the HUGE, extended hug he gave her after Terminus and again after the Savior kidnapping - he hugs her, not the other way around.  He immediately went for Lil' Asskicker right after she was born.  Daryl was abused as a child - and I wouldn't rule out sexually abused - and hid behind his older brother deep into adulthood.  Still, I find that Daryl, though his go-to is to be a loner, is a very loving/caring man and the writers should have written in a female for him.  They messed up with that.

 

Thanks for the refresher.  So Darryl *does* crave connection, clearly (unless Norman was desperate to be considered for a love story and decided he'd try to force the issue with sneaking in nonverbals).  Then I suspect more and more that it has something to do with flaws/reticence on the writer's parts to do a full-blown love story.

[LeeMoon]

I always had a hard time with Daryl's alleged virginity. In real life, when you hang around junkies in the kind of environment Daryl grew up in, the chances of anyone staying a virgin are pretty low. Anything is possible, I guess, but I find it hard to believe Daryl has never found himself in a sexual situation with someone. With alcohol and drugs flying around he has to have some very heavy issues in order to actively avoid any physical contact with anyone.

[AngelaHunter]

always had a hard time with Daryl's alleged virginity.

 

The only place I've seen Daryl as a virgin is in godawful fanfiction, where many women seem to view a mid-forties man as terrified virgin appealing somehow. Has that been alluded to on the show? I always thought he just never felt worthy of the CDB women and wouldn't make a move without some heavy encouragement just in case he gets rejected.

[LeeMoon]

The only place I've seen Daryl as a virgin is in godawful fanfiction, where many women seem to view a mid-forties man as terrified virgin appealing somehow. Has that been alluded to on the show? I always thought he just never felt worthy of the CDB women and wouldn't make a move without some heavy encouragement just in case he gets rejected.

 

It was never hinted at on the show, but I got the impression it was a popular view on Daryl. It's an interesting take that he felt unworthy, sits well with his issues in general.

 

In season 2 he had a nice scene with Andrea while they were walking alone in the woods. Daryl does have a way in connecting with some women when he is alone with them, like he did with Beth. Other than Rick, I think all his best friends on the show have been women, but it was never eventually romantic.

 

I don't know, maybe he is just asexual and is not interested in a sexual or a romantic relationship with anyone, the frustrating thing is that it stops his character from experiencing things other than everybody's the best friend.

[Pete Martell]

My headcanon for Daryl has been that he was sexually abused by a parent or one of his mother's boyfriends, and also, during Merle's visits home, possibly forced by Merle to "prove" what a man he was by having sex with various women. 

 

I know that's awful, but it's just something I've speculated on, especially with the Daryl of the last 3 seasons. The more he's let his barriers down in terms of accepting support and family, the more closed off he's become in other areas. 

[AngelaHunter]

In season 2 he had a nice scene with Andrea while they were walking alone in the woods.

 

Yes, he even killed the "pinata" walker because she was disturbed by it. I thought that was very sweet of him, haha!

[Eyes High]

I don't know, maybe he is just asexual and is not interested in a sexual or a romantic relationship with anyone, the frustrating thing is that it stops his character from experiencing things other than everybody's the best friend.

 

At least in recent seasons, it seems to me that Daryl's been pretty inert in a dramatic sense. He has no issue with Rick's leadership and is Rick's stalwart right-hand man no matter what crazy shit Rick gets into. He accepts his place in the Ricktatorship (heh) without question. He gets along with everyone in the group, and everyone gets along with him. He seems to like or at least tolerate everyone in the group, and everyone seems to like him, even when he's rude to them. He doesn't talk about his feelings; if he still has inner struggle or profound feelings about the shit he's been through, he doesn't communicate those emotions. He has no sexual or romantic life that we know of, and he has no interest in developing closer friendships with others despite his apparent popularity on Team Rick.

 

Daryl is just sort of...there. I feel like giving him a love interest plot would be at odds with the character as he's been written to date, since Daryl reads (to me, at least) as firmly asexual, but at least it would be something.

 

I was thinking about Carol's breakdown and what many have decried as the dismantling of an awesome badass character, and it occurred to me that what is going on with Carol is the product of a particular problem in these types of shows (action/adventure, horror, sci-fi, etc.). Let me explain.

 

Suppose you have a side character--let's call them X--who is a legit badass in a show that has protagonists A and B. X is incredibly powerful, smart, resourceful, and capable; they can accomplish feats A and B can only dream of. X makes A and B look like weaklings. If this is a comic-type show, X might have powers making them invincible or giving them superstrength,  while A and B are regular joes. If the show is urban fantasy, maybe X is an angel or a demon while A and B are humans. If this is an action/adventure show, X is a Navy Seal or James Bond type while A and B are neophytes when it comes to the whole action gig. Regardless of the genre, X either is superhuman or can do things most people can't, compared to A and B.

 

Now, all this works just fine from a storytelling perspective if X is an adversary. If X is friendly to A and B, though, then you have a problem, because if A and B ever get into a scrape, X has the desire and the abilities to come in and save them. Any danger is eliminated to A and B since X can just swoop in and save them, and A and B can't really grow as characters because X is always around to bail them out. And if X doesn't come to rescue them or isn't able to rescue them, then there needs to be a reason as to why. Series responding to this problem have dealt it a few ways: having X turn on A and B, introducing villains as strong as X, creating rules that limit X's ability to intervene to assist A and B, depowering X, disappearing X offscreen, or, as the most extreme remedy, killing X.

 

So how does all this relate to Carol? Carol is X: a near-superhuman badass, a "force of nature" who at her sociopathic best can do things that no other member of Team Rick can do. Carol at her most functional is a one-woman army who makes everyone else look like rank amateurs, and she is also unquestionably loyal to Team Rick. Carol's "crisis of conscience" could be seen as the organic result of Carol's character arc, or it could be, to put it in comic book terms, a "depowering" to get around the issue of why Negan et al. would even present any kind of threat when Team Rick has a one-woman wrecking crew on their side.

[Timetoread]

I don't see Carol as X at all.  She is not even close to superhuman. A and B would be who?  Rick and Michonne?  Daryl and Sasha?  Glenn and Maggie?  I don't think so.  Every last one of them can do what she's done and more.  She has saved them but they've also saved her many, many times.  Carol has one power that has served her up until recently - her seeming weakness.  It is an act that she puts on (and really, IMO, it is the act of playing "herself" - how she thinks the world sees her and how she derisively sees herself as the person who was beat up by her husband and was unable to save her only child) to be invisible.  Every Carol moment had to do with her invisibility - killing Karen and David in the middle of the night and not telling anybody that it was her; teaching the kids to fight but telling them not to tell their parents; taking down Terminus clothed in a walker cape; taking out the wolves dressed as a wolf.  Even "look at the flowers, Lizzie" so that you can't see what I am about to do.  I am not calling this cowardice so much as a struggle that she has with being seen and seeing herself.

 

And her current breakdown, IMO, is because suddenly people are seeing her.  Morgan saw her. Tobin saw her.  Rick is seeing her in a new light - as one of his uberstrong warriors.  But what pushed her over the edge was when Redhead Savior saw her - WAS her - and was a mirror to what she had become and she did not like what she saw.  She didn't like weak Carol and she doesn't like strong Carol.  Her own psyche invalidates both.  I think Carol has to learn to love herself so that she can love others and most importantly she can let them love HER.

[SevenStars]

I don't see Carol as X at all. She is not even close to superhuman. A and B would be who? Rick and Michonne? Daryl and Sasha? Glenn and Maggie? I don't think so. Every last one of them can do what she's done and more. She has saved them but they've also saved her many, many times. Carol has one power that has served her up until recently - her seeming weakness. It is an act that she puts on (and really, IMO, it is the act of playing "herself" - how she thinks the world sees her and how she derisively sees herself as the person who was beat up by her husband and was unable to save her only child) to be invisible. Every Carol moment had to do with her invisibility - killing Karen and David in the middle of the night and not telling anybody that it was her; teaching the kids to fight but telling them not to tell their parents; taking down Terminus clothed in a walker cape; taking out the wolves dressed as a wolf. Even "look at the flowers, Lizzie" so that you can't see what I am about to do. I am not calling this cowardice so much as a struggle that she has with being seen and seeing herself.

And her current breakdown, IMO, is because suddenly people are seeing her. Morgan saw her. Tobin saw her. Rick is seeing her in a new light - as one of his uberstrong warriors. But what pushed her over the edge was when Redhead Savior saw her - WAS her - and was a mirror to what she had become and she did not like what she saw. She didn't like weak Carol and she doesn't like strong Carol. Her own psyche invalidates both. I think Carol has to learn to love herself so that she can love others and most importantly she can let them love HER.

I totally agree with this and why I don't really see Carol as a warrior or superhuman like some people see her.

[LeeMoon]

I actually think you're both right.

 

Carol has reached a point where she is a one woman army. What she did in Terminus and against the Wolfs is super hero territory. Even recently her killing a group of armed man by her terminator arm wouldn't work that well in reality. Carol is a killing machine. People expect her to take Negan down and save the day. There is a reason why she was kept away from any decision making done by Rick and Co. about Negan. Negan is Rick's arc and he has to fail and reach the bottom in order to learn his lesson and fight his way back.

 

On the other hand, Carol is a deeply flawed character. Her breakdown makes sense to me for reasons I already mentioned. Carol's justification for killing people has always been protecting the group. She reached coldness about it earlier than Rick, who is now catching up with her, as evident by his conversation with Morgan about the people she killed because they were sick. Carol needs to break away from the group so she can find her own will and judgement to do things, separate from what she now feels is forced upon her as long as she is with the group.

[Sparger Springs]

The only place I've seen Daryl as a virgin is in godawful fanfiction, where many women seem to view a mid-forties man as terrified virgin appealing somehow. Has that been alluded to on the show? I always thought he just never felt worthy of the CDB women and wouldn't make a move without some heavy encouragement just in case he gets rejected.

At the very least Merle forced him to have sex with someone. Probably some skeevy older Merle cast off.  Merle was an awful human being. No way he would allow his brother to wander around being a virgin past the age of 14.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Sparger Springs