CooperTV November 9, 2015 Share November 9, 2015 Elizabeth has President Dalton's support when attempting to make history by lifting the Cuban trade embargo. However, she faces a challenge in winning the Senate's support. Meanwhile, Henry and Alison bond while touring Havana together. Link to comment
Guest November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 The episode lost all credibility for me when Nadine, a competent, powerful woman, turned on the fake tears to get her way. Link to comment
leighdear November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 (edited) I thought the Nadine tears were smart. She's obviously spent a lot of years dealing with dolt career bureaucrats who need form A and application B to do the crap Civil Service jobs they get to do badly, with no repercussions. You could tell his automated responses wouldn't have been any different if the President himself had been standing there. I tend to always cry at scenes with retired veterans. This episode was no different. And I truly hope what we saw actually comes to pass. Edited November 16, 2015 by leighdear 11 Link to comment
pennben November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 (edited) The episode lost all credibility for me when Nadine, a competent, powerful woman, turned on the fake tears to get her way. I thought it lost credibility when Dr. Husband Crankypants yet Spy Extraordinaire explained politics to Russell and Bess in the car to the airport when he, shall we say, 'savant' parsed a political turn by a Senator holding a vote hostage that clearly Russell and Bess would miss, because, you know..... eta: because, Bess, not Tess. Edited November 16, 2015 by pennben 4 Link to comment
betsyboo November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 (edited) I tend to always cry at scenes with retired veterans. This episode was no different. And I truly hope what we saw actually comes to pass. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who teared up! When they stood and the vet handed the flag to the Marine.... WAH. Matt: get a haircut. Where was Jay?? Wasn't this a huge policy thing? Where is he? Edited November 16, 2015 by betsyboo 2 Link to comment
Netfoot November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 The episode lost all credibility for me when Nadine, a competent, powerful woman, turned on the fake tears to get her way. I thought it was hilarious. She didn't even bother to fake-cry convincingly, but all opposition still melted away. The kid was wrong to keep quiet about bouncing the car. Sure, you fix it and all, but still say. On the other hand, dad was wrong to keep harping on it, over and over and over. And over. Looks like Elizabeth and Russell might be joining forces against a common enemy. Things might get interesting in the episodes ahead! 7 Link to comment
missbonnie November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Yes! I am seriously looking forward to Russell and Bess bringing down the hammer on the smarmy spy guy. I also got misty at the flag raising ceremony at the end, something about seeing our flag waving in the wind turns me into mush. I really, really love this show. 8 Link to comment
sinkwriter November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Yes! I am seriously looking forward to Russell and Bess bringing down the hammer on the smarmy spy guy. I've grown to love the complexity of Russell's character. Zeljko Ivanek is fantastic, and I love that the writing of the character is filled with shades of grey. He's not an over-the-top stereotype of a character or a total bastard. He argues with Elizabeth when he disagrees, and he stands up for her when he does agree (like he did in this episode, which was awesome). He may not be the nicest guy, but he's honorable in his own bizarre way. And I would never want to have that guy come after me, so Craig better watch his back! The way Russell said, "We bury him"? That was delicious. 13 Link to comment
Dowel Jones November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 I don't pretend to understand all the complexities of international trade, but it sure seemed out of place that Wyoming would be so interested in trade with Cuba that they would campaign for a study to look at the feasibility. It's not like there aren't any other markets out there. So they got the Wind River National Park, instead. No doubt adjacent to large, multi-million dollar trophy ranches. I too got SO tired of Crankypants Allstate riding his daughter about the fender bender. She's obviously spent a lot of years dealing with dolt career bureaucrats who need form A and application B to do the crap Civil Service jobs they get to do badly, with no repercussions. Presumably for the plot she explained herself and her mission to him off camera. It would have been more believable to see her hand some sort of authorization from higher up, rather than go the "poor me" tears route. Failing either of those first two situations, I agree with the clerk, but I wouldn't have mentioned the time involved. Follow the process, because they aren't going to hand over the information (non-public) to anyone who asks for it. The FOIA forms provide a record of who asked for it. Link to comment
Brian Cronin November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Whether you agree or disagree with the trade embargo on Cuba, the idea that lifting it would be a huge political coup was ill-considered. The country is pretty evenly split on the issue, so even if, ultimately, ending the embargo would be a net positive for the President, the notion that it'd be something that the President would gleefully be thinking of the future campaign commercial was kind of silly and really took me out of the show for a moment as so much of the show was based around that premise. I've been impressed in the past with a lot of their attempts for verisimilitude. This didn't even really try. 2 Link to comment
pennben November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 (edited) the notion that it'd be something that the President would gleefully be thinking of the future campaign commercial was kind of silly and really took me out of the show for a moment as so much of the show was based around that premise. Actually, I thought they made it quite clear that the President was thinking of making a serious substantive shift in relations, not a campaign commercial. He was advised that it would be a bad political move. And yet, he told Bess, 'let's go make history' regardless. Edited November 16, 2015 by pennben 1 Link to comment
tom87 November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 So didn't Bess open the US up to a huge law suit admitting they suppressed evidence? Couldn't the President have just pardon her instead of a whole new trial? So the actress who plays the middle kid drew the short stick to be obnoxious this week? 1 Link to comment
andromeda331 November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Really not a fan of Henry's this week. I didn't like the way he acted in the limo or that he got to be the one to figure out the guy was in cahoots with the NSA. I'm sorry but I do agree its ridioulous that neither Russell or Elizabeth figured that out. I also didn't like the way he kept bringing up the accident or his remark about her taking pictures only to get likes. I'm not sure how I feel about Cuba but I really liked hearing from the men that served in the embassy until the last day and how they got to be there. That was my favorite part. 2 Link to comment
j5cochran November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 A nice part of this episode actually happened when the US embassy in Cuba reopened in August of this year. From the Washington Post, on August 14, 2015: It was a few days into January 1961 when three Marines at the U.S. Embassy in Havana were given a sad task: Take down the American flag. President Dwight D. Eisenhower was shutting down the diplomatic compound and pulling Americans out, a response to the downward spiral in U.S. relations with the new government of Fidel Castro. The non-commissioned officer in charge at the embassy asked for three volunteers — “the biggest, ugliest Marines you can find,” recalled retired Master Gunnery Sgt. Jim Tracy, then a sergeant. He and two others — then-Lance Cpl. Larry C. Morris and then-Cpl. Francis “Mike” East — were sent out to part a crowd of about 300 Cubans and take down Old Glory, Tracy said. ... On Friday, the Marines, now in their 70s, returned to Havana alongside Secretary of State John F. Kerry to take part in a ceremony to raise the flag again. It has been more than 54 years since U.S. relations with Cuba were severed, but the embassy reopened following an agreement reached earlier this year between Havana and Washington. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/08/14/these-marines-took-down-the-u-s-flag-in-cuba-in-1961-today-theyll-raise-it-again/?hpid=z2 5 Link to comment
Guest November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 I do like the subplot of Elizabeth and Russell vs. the NSA guy. I think it has potential. I loved the scenes with her Matt. Especially when the servicemen described how he thought they'd be back in just a few years. I was distracted by how bad the fake scenery was in the car ride with Henry the demigod, Bess, and Russell though. Link to comment
Bobcatkitten November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 How in the world does a teenager fix a car without her parents noticing? Wasn't it not around for a few days? Where did she get the money? Also, don't they watch her Instagram? Henry yelling at her for taking a picture of that beautiful church was just stupid. 2 Link to comment
AncientSand November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 They made a point to mention the speechwriter had written an introduction for the two retired Marines and then Bess doesn't mention them, weird. Link to comment
candall November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Who wrote this??? Noodle (gag) was in a car accident?! Oh wait, she backed out of a parking space into a stanchion. And then spent her own money to have the dent popped out. Well, haul out the pillory! She got more shit than the naked daughter posted all over the net screwing the First Heroin Addict in a DC hotel room. Good thing Henry was along to take up the slack for the Secretary of State and the Chief of Staff! If your staff speechwriter isn't 100% true believer, you have a problem. Just write your own damn speech. Plenty o'time. Cuban Diplomat: Madam Secretary, we need to make a stop. Elizabeth: Duh? (Repeat, repeat, repeat. . .) Nadine--the human tank wafting eau d'White House--can't persuade the no-level bureaucrat by using the complexities of Congressional tradeoffs, so she cries. Was the next step a BJ? Stirling and Parissi can't wait two seconds to exit the Oval Office before sharing the secret comrade handshake, which finally prompts Eagle Eye Russell to investigate: Cahoots! If there could only be five minutes without an eyeroll, I'm glad it was the end. The flag raising, particularly the older servicemen, was golden. (No thanks to the scriptwriters, who probably would have given the job to Noodle as a symbol of her own revised status with the 'rents. Snort.) 1 Link to comment
Bobcatkitten November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Also, why didn't the veterans raise the flag? Link to comment
j5cochran November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Also, why didn't the veterans raise the flag? In the real world, the Marines who had lowered the flag in 1961 were on hand in 2015 to hand a new flag to the current Marines, who then raised that flag. I presume that the show was simply following the actual events from August. 3 Link to comment
KaveDweller November 17, 2015 Share November 17, 2015 They made a point to mention the speechwriter had written an introduction for the two retired Marines and then Bess doesn't mention them, weird. I noticed that too, maybe it was cut for time. From the show I mean, and we're just supposed to assume she said it and that part just happened off screen. 1 Link to comment
shapeshifter November 17, 2015 Share November 17, 2015 I wondered if the actors who played the vets were really actors or really vets. I do love the song that titles the episode; it's from the time of the black activist. I imagine Hillary reading that the show is based upon her time as SOS and then she says to herself, "If only." Bess has some spectacular wins. Link to comment
secnarf November 17, 2015 Share November 17, 2015 I wondered if the actors who played the vets were really actors or really vets. I do love the song that titles the episode; it's from the time of the black activist. I would assume the actors are actors, due to SAG-AFTRA regulations. I love the song as well, but I don't typically thing of the Beatles as civil rights inspired music. I think Revolution was more based on the Vietnam war. I think Blowin in the Wind would have made a better title for this episode, for a number of reasons :P 1 Link to comment
CooperTV November 17, 2015 Author Share November 17, 2015 (edited) Henry was insufferable this episode. I mean, I like his and Elizabeth's relationship, the portrayal of their family is great in general. But he was acting really aggressive towards Allison for no reason. Their student committing suicide is a great reason for a person to act out and all but Henry vented it on his own child. It's a good thing Allison has a middle child complex, is very good-natured and doesn't want her parents to be angry at her, otherwise I'd expect more fireworks. ETA: And yep, "poor innocent Stevie, she's a dumbass with no common sense and in her twenties! Allison, you're such a brat for fixing your car yourself and not bothering to make your parents worry to much! Ugh, what an asshole!". Thanks, show, no thanks. She went off at him in the car, of course, but it was weird, because Russel was there, and he and her mom did shoptalk. It was really inappropriate. But seeing as Henry was advising the US SoS and the CoS about their business (lol nope!), it was perfectly in style for the show. I liked how Russel went all "Oops, never mind, I gotta go away from your crazy now!". The Cuba embargo plot was too idealistic for this season's mood. Everything worked out in Elizabeth's favor, everyone were brilliant and everyone learned a valuable lesson on the US freedom, etc. After last week's gloominess it was actually very welcome change. Same with the black freedom fighter hiding in Cuba. I was glad Elizabeth and co found a key to her conscience. But it was kind of strange POTUS didn't pardon when she returned, considering the police's abuse of power and the brutality . Elizabeth and Russel vs. the US Senators was the best part of the episode for me. I'm glad they finally figured out the Scrappy NSA Guy is a cartoon villain, like I'd said before! And go, Russel, you are awesome! The last scene was amazing! Edited November 17, 2015 by CooperTV 2 Link to comment
Dowel Jones November 17, 2015 Share November 17, 2015 What I want to know is the name of the auto shop that fixed Allison's car in one or two days. Even Raymond Reddington doesn't get that kind of service. 4 Link to comment
l star November 19, 2015 Share November 19, 2015 Considering the way her parents treat her, I assumed Allison kept driving the car until the shop could get her in and neither of them noticed. Henry was an insufferable ass this week. Why would Allison tell them about the car? She could probably have gotten it fixed faster than she could have convinced them to actually listen to her long enough to tell them what was going on. And Henry, I don't even use social media and I would have been snapping pictures to that gorgeous church. So get over yourself. Aside from Henry, I still didn't like this episode. It was way too idealistic for me. The idea that they could get 60 senators onboard in two days for vote about something as divisive as lifting the embargo was just too much for me to swallow. Elizabeth's OOC dumbass obliviousness grated too. At least there was the promise of a coming fight between Craig, Russell, and Elizabeth for me to look forward to. Link to comment
shapeshifter November 19, 2015 Share November 19, 2015 And Henry, I don't even use social media and I would have been snapping pictures to that gorgeous church. So get over yourself.His reaction was so heated that I initially assumed there would be some harmful political fallout if she posted them online--or even that they would be detained because she had them on her phone. When neither of those explanations were shown, I assumed they were cut for time, because otherwise Henry was being OOC. I mean, yes, a student died. And, yes, he felt somewhat responsible--but not really. Right? IDK. My elderly father died and my elderly mother has been snapping at everyone who is trying to help her, which I have no problem understanding. But Henry in this situation?? Yeah, I'm going with cut for time. Link to comment
thewhiteowl November 20, 2015 Share November 20, 2015 His reaction was so heated that I initially assumed there would be some harmful political fallout if she posted them online--or even that they would be detained because she had them on her phone. When neither of those explanations were shown, I assumed they were cut for time, because otherwise Henry was being OOC. I mean, yes, a student died. And, yes, he felt somewhat responsible--but not really. Right? IDK. My elderly father died and my elderly mother has been snapping at everyone who is trying to help her, which I have no problem understanding. But Henry in this situation?? Yeah, I'm going with cut for time. All true but I was just so happy to see a flaw in Capt Gary Stu Arm Candy. 2 Link to comment
sinkwriter November 20, 2015 Share November 20, 2015 (edited) Why would Allison tell them about the car? Why wouldn't a sixteen-year-old girl tell her parents she wrecked the car? It may be scary to tell them, but her idea that it was okay to hide it from them so long as she took care of it herself and paid for it herself would not have flown with my parents. You can't hide that stuff. Also... who paid for the car in the first place? The parents, I'd imagine. And given her age, can it even be in her name at all without them co-signing on it? So by that right, it's their car, they paid for it, they should know when it's been damaged (especially because you're supposed to disclose that to anyone who buys it from you). I thought Allison was ridiculously flippant about not telling them, and Henry had a right to be mad. Of course, he went overboard because he wouldn't stop needling her about it, but 1) that's the price you pay when you hide things from and lie to your parents, and 2) they'd already shown in the previous episode that he was upset about the suicide of his student, so I believed his overreaction due to feeling guilty about that. Edited November 20, 2015 by sinkwriter 3 Link to comment
shapeshifter November 20, 2015 Share November 20, 2015 Why wouldn't a sixteen-year-old girl tell her parents she wrecked the car?... I thought Allison was ridiculously flippant about not telling them... Yes, but not unusual. Coincidentally(?) my middle child did the same thing. Twice. Only she claimed hit-n-run because she couldn't pay for it. I first learned about it when her younger sister came into the house and said, "What happened to the car?" Watching the episode I was reminded of how more affluent households are able to resolve such conflicts more quickly and with less thought and time. 1 Link to comment
innocuouspuff November 21, 2015 Share November 21, 2015 (edited) It's not shocking that she wouldn't tell them about the car, but the framing of her reasoning as so adult and noble was weird to me. She was mainly trying not to get in trouble. Understandable, but also understandably frustrating to mom and dad. This season just takes place in a melodramatic alternate history universe, I can't decide if I'm totally onboard with it but it's fun. Henry's storyline has been bugging me because I'm not sure that, if the genders were reversed, they would feel the need to give Mister Secretary's wife such a large part of the real action. But this week it was like, please put him back in his own isolated storyline! They don't know what to do with him, but I don't think they'd be nearly so stumped if he were female? idk. Edited November 21, 2015 by innocuouspuff 4 Link to comment
SparklesBitch November 21, 2015 Share November 21, 2015 I've grown to love the complexity of Russell's character. Zeljko Ivanek is fantastic, and I love that the writing of the character is filled with shades of grey. He's not an over-the-top stereotype of a character or a total bastard. He argues with Elizabeth when he disagrees, and he stands up for her when he does agree (like he did in this episode, which was awesome). He may not be the nicest guy, but he's honorable in his own bizarre way. And I would never want to have that guy come after me, so Craig better watch his back! The way Russell said, "We bury him"? That was delicious. Yes! You've said it better than I could, and I completely agree. Russell is a great character, and for all of these reasons, one of my favorites. Delicious is the best possible word to describe that scene. I can't wait to see how it all plays out. As for the rest of this episode, I'm a little late, but like a lot of people mentioned, I too teared up at the scene with the retired veterans and spent some time during the episode annoyed by Henry for reasons already discussed. Mostly because he kept harping on Allison about her very minor car accident. Seriously, dude. Pretty sure she got your point the first two times you hammered it into her skull. As for Nadine's fake crying, I'll confess it cracked me up mostly because it was so obviously fake, but the self-important bureaucrat guy was so uncomfortable with her "feminine emotions" that she got what she wanted anyway. It didn't bother me that she fake cried because it was her last resort tactic and hey, a woman has to use whatever tools are available to her. 3 Link to comment
kwnyc November 21, 2015 Share November 21, 2015 She got more shit than the naked daughter posted all over the net screwing the First Heroin Addict in a DC hotel room. Well, they actually EXPECT something of Allison. And of course they've just remembered her name. Link to comment
andromeda331 November 21, 2015 Share November 21, 2015 Henry's storyline has been bugging me because I'm not sure that, if the genders were reversed, they would feel the need to give Mister Secretary's wife such a large part of the real action. You've summed up my problem with Henry's storyline. If it was reversed would Mister Secetary's wife be doing anything that he does? 2 Link to comment
innocuouspuff November 22, 2015 Share November 22, 2015 (edited) I really doubt it. She'd be getting sub-plots about fundraising committees and party invitations, et cetera. Which is not to downplay the amount of work that goes into being a politician's spouse or to say there's nothing there for the writers to work with, but a lot of it is the invisible, female coded type stuff that they are trying hard to keep Henry away from. So instead he's the only CIA employee who can get them intel on Russia and it's pretty ridiculous. And honestly Henry actually dealing with home and local stuff could be made really interesting if they tried, or if he had his own more realistic Washington-based career in politics/lobbying/activism. Though I guess we sorta have that show and it's called The Good Wife. Edited November 22, 2015 by innocuouspuff 6 Link to comment
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