S09.E06: The Woman Who Lived

[AudienceofOne]

Well I hated it! OK, that's too strong - I was bored by it. The idea that somebody might view immortality as a curse might be an interesting one - if it hasn't been a Who staple since (at least) The Five Doctors and a recurring theme of modern Who

 

I felt the same. I thought this was a powerful and enjoyable episode - the first 2 or 3 hundred times I've seen it. We seem to be retreading a lot of very familiar territory here.

[rur]

I translated what he'd said into the idea that she was taking her Tae Kwon Do level 7 tests, but after reading the above, I think it could mean she had taken the kids on a field trip to a martial arts studio, especially since he didn't ask her if she passed when she showed up at the end. 

[futurechemist]

I kind of thought that episodes 1-2 were the Doctor-lite episodes for this season. Not as Doctor-lite as Turn Left or Crimson Horror, but much of the action focused on Missy and Clara. And I'm not going to be too fussed about why Clara wasn't there. I seem to recall there were quite a few old episodes where Tegan or Nyssa or whoever would basically spend an episode sleeping in the Tardis because the writers didn't know what to do with them.

I'm torn on Ashildr not being invited to travel with the Doctor. It's in keeping with the whole "1 madman per box" thing that kept River from being a regular companion. But it also kind of smells like production - Maisie Williams not being available for a regular role.

Kind of funny that the line that got 1000 fans all a-flutter "What kept you so long, old man?" was really just a throwaway line to take us into the opening credits.

Onto the episode itself, these 2 episodes had a lot of humor. Which is good because I don't like it when the show gets too broody or dark. And this series has been fairly introspective. The Doctor's chats with Ashildr and Davros have shown that sometimes good dialogue can be worth more than a huge special effect budget.

[Llywela]

I kind of thought that episodes 1-2 were the Doctor-lite episodes for this season. Not as Doctor-lite as Turn Left or Crimson Horror, but much of the action focused on Missy and Clara. And I'm not going to be too fussed about why Clara wasn't there. I seem to recall there were quite a few old episodes where Tegan or Nyssa or whoever would basically spend an episode sleeping in the Tardis because the writers didn't know what to do with them.

That only happened once - Nyssa had to be kept off-screen for an adventure, not because they didn't know what to do with her but because it had been written before the decision was made to keep her on as a full-time companion, so the story was all set to go with no place for her in it and no time for re-writes. In the '60s, both the various companions and the Doctor would take turns to disappear for a week or two here and there, and that was because due to the way production took place back then, it was the only way they could get any time off.

 

I agree about the emphasis on Ashildr not travelling with the Doctor being extremely contrived rather than organic to the story. As for her line in the teaser - I always thought it would be a line thrown in for PR reasons more than anything else. A bit like Martha's 'I'm bringing you back to Earth!' line, which was absolutely said to sound enticing in adverts rather than being what the character would naturally say in that situation! Awful dialogue.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Llywela

[patchwork]

I'm not really familiar with the Time Lady or what happened during her run but as the Doctor didn't really travel with effectively immortal Jack I assumed that line was about her and how two people with long life expectancy feed into each other's tendency to see the bigger picture and emotionally be closed off to events around them. 

 

The glasses and the guitar continue to be too try hard, I can't wait until they get rid of them. Although 11 never lost his bowties so they might be around for as long as Capaldi is. 

 

I really liked this episode, although I did keep wondering why he didn't just buy her a spaceship. I know the real problem was with her being disconnected from people but come on she wants to travel and see what else is out there that doesn't necessarily mean having to travel with the Doctor. 

[Llywela]

I'm not really familiar with the Time Lady or what happened during her run but as the Doctor didn't really travel with effectively immortal Jack I assumed that line was about her and how two people with long life expectancy feed into each other's tendency to see the bigger picture and emotionally be closed off to events around them. 

If by Time Lady you mean Romana, that really wasn't how her relationship with the Doctor worked. There was no existential angst, no emotional shut-down, no 'we're long lived and everyone else dies' woe, none of it. They travelled around the universe having fun together, and helped a lot of people along the way. The Doctor taught Romana to loosen up and be more flexible, as she was very by-the-book in her first incarnation, while she had a lot more up-to-date skills and book-learning than him - they were a good team, and being exceptionally long-lived wasn't an issue at all. Why would it be? They were both Time Lords; to them, their life span was as normal as ours is to us. That long life span isn't so normal for a human, but the Doctor's excuse for why he couldn't take Ashildr with him on his travels was very contrived. 

[wayne67]

Well this is the first episode I've watched since the whole sewers run rampant episode and the Doctor irritated me with his insistence on calling the character of the week by a name she had outgrown a few centuries prior. Then again I guess the Doctor doesn't listen when it's not about him and he never really takes responsibility for anything he does.

[doesntworkonwood]

I really hate the glasses. At first it was just because they're stupid, but now it's because you really can't see Capaldi's expressions when he's wearing them at all, especially because he uses his eyes so much. I never know what The Doctor's thinking

[Stephimoon]

Okay I've just started re-watching and during the bungled heist pre-credits, when the Doctor can't be bothered to listen to what "The Nightmare" is saying, he says something like "At this point someone usually hits me in the head but she's taken a year's severance for Tae Kwon Do."

Is that what you heard and if so WFT? Is he saying the reason Clara isn't traveling with I'm right now is that she decided to take up a martial art instead?

Don't suggest I look at the closed captions -- I don' think s/he could make it out either.

ETA: Finished re-watching it. Still didn't like it. Next week looks good through. But . . .

didn't Osgood die in the last Christmas special?

He says "She's taking the Year Sevens for Tae-Kwon-do". That's the year group that Clara teaches.

[elle]

 

The glasses and the guitar continue to be too try hard, I can't wait until they get rid of them. Although 11 never lost his bowties so they might be around for as long as Capaldi is. 

And Five never lost his celery boutonniere, but neither of them were "sonic".

 

I really hate the glasses. At first it was just because they're stupid, but now it's because you really can't see Capaldi's expressions when he's wearing them at all, especially because he uses his eyes so much. I never know what The Doctor's thinking

Good point!

 

Otoh, this is probably the easiest costume of a Doctor to use for 10/31 - hoody: check; coat: check; sunglasses: check; gray hair: check ;0)

Edited October 26, 2015 by elle

[proserpina65]

 

Edited October 26, 2015 by proserpina65

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

I Am The Doctor's Sonic Sunglasses
The Doctor's new 'wearable tech' breaks its silence after a bit too much shade-throwing.

[John Potts]

proserpina65 The Visitation, where Five's confrontation with the Tereliptils starts the Great Fire of London.  Which Twelve referenced in this episode.

 

 

...except that's 1666 and we're in the Protectorate (1649-1660), since the Doctor claims to have a warrant from Oliver Cromwell. But thanks for playing!

 

ETA: Well, technically it would have to be prior to 1658, since that's when Oliver Cromwell died.

Edited October 26, 2015 by John Potts

[shandy]

I'm still mildly enthusiastic about this season, despite the ludicrous leonine alien, the groan out loud gallows humor and the easy wrap up. I thought there  was some memorable dialog, full of pathos - it wasn't all awful - and I thought the idea of Clara coaching taekwondo was funny - there are too many other things in this current iteration of DW to be irritated about than a throw away line! I also bought that 12 didn't want to take Ashildr with him - I just wish the writer hadn't felt the need for an explanation - it showed doubt in the story. I would be happy with him not taking her for no reason other than being a **** - the only doctor who hasn't been been in some way contrary was 5, and he was such a bland milquetoast at times. 

[JayEeeBee]

And I didn't understand the ending at all. So Lady Me has decided she does care about humans, yet the Doctor is a frenemy? And why is she following Clara? Shouldn't she be in photos of other companions too?

Perhaps I'm getting it wrong, but she didn't see the Doctor with the other companions. She only saw Clara. That was my understanding of that one.

[daisycat]

Oh please, please, please - a spin-off with Captain Jack and Ashildr, named "The Captain and Me". I would watch the shit out of that.

[penguinnj]

 

I'm torn on Ashildr not being invited to travel with the Doctor. It's in keeping with the whole "1 madman per box" thing that kept River from being a regular companion. But it also kind of smells like production - Maisie Williams not being available for a regular role.

I'm going with this- to be honest it was contrived when River said it, and it's still contrived now- but an explanation is necessary and this what they came up with.  I also think they might have directly referenced 11 when he said to Amy that he chose her because "he couldn't see it anymore."  This fits a bit more because Ashlar clearly could not see it. 

All in all- and after a rematch- I really did like this one.  

[Occasional Hope]

...except that's 1666 and we're in the Protectorate (1649-1660), since the Doctor claims to have a warrant from Oliver Cromwell. But thanks for playing!

 

ETA: Well, technically it would have to be prior to 1658, since that's when Oliver Cromwell died.

They said it was 1651.

[Llywela]

We've had some discussion about which adventures Ashildr might have heard of - I've lifted this breakdown from another forum. These are the canonical (TV episodes) appearances on Earth for the Doctor between ~850 and 1651:

 

1066: The Time Meddler
1138: The Magician's Apprentice
1190: Robot of Sherwood
1191: The Crusade
1207: The Bells of Saint John
1215: The King's Demons
1289: Marco Polo
13th century: The Time Warrior
sometime between 1430 and 1519: The Aztecs
1492: The Masque of Mandragora
1505: City of Death
1562: The Day of the Doctor
1572: The Massacre
1580: Vampires of Venice
1599: The Shakespeare Code
1638: Silver Nemesis

 

I think we caught a lot of them in this thread, and have discussed which ones Ashildr was least likely to have heard rumblings about - specifically those that didn't take place in England.

[benteen]

Oh please, please, please - a spin-off with Captain Jack and Ashildr, named "The Captain and Me". I would watch the shit out of that.

 

John Barrowman and Maisie Williams together for a show might just be too much awesomeness in one place...

[darkestboy]

Great episode.

 

Loved the Doctor and Ashildr's whole rapport this week. Didn't miss Clara at all.

 

Leandro was a decent menace, Swift OK in small doses.

 

The immortality discussion was thought provoking too.

 

Can't believe we're half way through this series already, 9/10

[Bruinsfan]

And did anybody else think of the cat guy as "Lion-O"?

I wondered if he had a connection to that lion-like guy Romana ran off with at the end of "The Warrior's Gate." Which, now that I think of it, offers a very interesting possibility for the prophecy about a hybrid being connected to the Time Lords.

[Llywela]

I wondered if he had a connection to that lion-like guy Romana ran off with at the end of "The Warrior's Gate." Which, now that I think of it, offers a very interesting possibility for the prophecy about a hybrid being connected to the Time Lords.

It would have been a very interesting connection if the show had gone there, but the lion-people in Warrior's Gate were called Tharils, not...whatever it was this guy called his people.

[elle]

He says "She's taking the Year Sevens for Tae-Kwon-do". That's the year group that Clara teaches.

This and the trip he and Clara took with the "special student" to interview Churchill are just more examples to throw on the pile of why I hate this companion/Doctor relationship. I thought that bit of the end nullified the better part of the episode, just to show Ashildr in a snapshot.  I think we have all said it before, how Clara treats (or is written) to treat the Doctor and the Tardis as her own personal toy/cab/boyfriend/whatever whenever she feels like going off on an adventure.

 

Watching "Logopolis" really brought this home for me.  I know a lot of people do not like Teagen, but one does feel for her desperately wanting to go back home to her life.  I can just imagine a meeting of past companions with her and Clara!

[benteen]

One of the many reasons why the Doctor needs a full-time companion of his own and not someone who treats traveling with the TARDIS so casually.

[HouseofBeck]

If by Time Lady you mean Romana, that really wasn't how her relationship with the Doctor worked. There was no existential angst, no emotional shut-down, no 'we're long lived and everyone else dies' woe, none of it. They travelled around the universe having fun together, and helped a lot of people along the way. The Doctor taught Romana to loosen up and be more flexible, as she was very by-the-book in her first incarnation, while she had a lot more up-to-date skills and book-learning than him - they were a good team, and being exceptionally long-lived wasn't an issue at all. Why would it be? They were both Time Lords; to them, their life span was as normal as ours is to us. That long life span isn't so normal for a human, but the Doctor's excuse for why he couldn't take Ashildr with him on his travels was very contrived.

Yes. This. (Loved this!) I was shouting at the screen, "What about Romana?"

I do feel Ashildr is far too dangerous for him to have her with him as a companion, but also felt the writer/editors could have handled it better. I wish that character would have popped up in a later show, not immediately after.

[tennisgurl]

I like Clara, but I really did not miss her here. Having her away for awhile was a good call. 

 

All the talk of immortality and the pros and cons of never being able to die reminded of Hob Gadling from the Sandman stories, which was another story of a normal person who was randomly gifted with immortality by a strange, otherworldy being. The ending, where Ashildr and the Doctor talk about how great being alive is, despite everything, reminds me a lot of Hob and his thoughts on living a VERY long life. 

[benteen]

Yes. This. (Loved this!) I was shouting at the screen, "What about Romana?"

I do feel Ashildr is far too dangerous for him to have her with him as a companion, but also felt the writer/editors could have handled it better. I wish that character would have popped up in a later show, not immediately after.

 

Yeah, my first thought was Romana too.

 

I do think he could have dropped Ashildr off somewhere less boring though.

[Bruinsfan]

That brings up a point I've always wondered. If the Doctor leaves someone on an alien world, does the TARDIS permanently implant the local languages in their brains before departure, or are they suddenly left not knowing them and forced to learn fluency the old-fashioned way? Obviously not a problem for Susan or Romana, but I wonder about people like Nyssa and Perri who ended up staying on worlds they weren't native to.

[Pattycake2]

 

I did think that Ashildr calling the Doctor "the man who fixes things and then runs away" a biting comment and hearkened back to Eleven making the general give the order for the troops to "run away".

 

That actually pissed me off.  What do people want?  The Doctor saves them from some horrible alien invasion and then he's supposed to settle in down the street, run the local sweet shoppe, and come over Sundays for tea?   He leaves.  He's busy.  Get over it.

[Llywela]

That actually pissed me off.  What do people want?  The Doctor saves them from some horrible alien invasion and then he's supposed to settle in down the street, run the local sweet shoppe, and come over Sundays for tea?   He leaves.  He's busy.  Get over it.

I know. It's like getting mad at the fireman who saves you from a house fire for not staying to rebuild your house for you afterward. That's not his job, it's something you, the homeowner, need to arrange for yourself. The fireman has done his bit, now it's over to you. Alien invasions are neither the Doctor's fault nor his responsibility. He chooses to help out because he's a good person. He is under no obligation to remain on-hand afterward. People need to take responsibility for themselves. This is something that's come up a lot over the years in New Who, and it always annoys me - this air of entitlement and resentment toward the Doctor. If something goes wrong and he doesn't happen to be around to help out (since, you know, he is neither omnipotent nor omnipresent), people get pissed at him about it, like he owes it to them to always be there to save them if they need it, and then when he does come and save them from whatever happens to be menacing them now, they get pissed at him again as if they think his being there to help means he brought it all on them somehow. And then they act like his leaving again after he's helped is somehow a worse trauma than whatever it was he saved them from. It isn't. He doesn't live in those times and places. He doesn't belong there. He's just visiting. He helps out when he's there, and then he leaves, trusting the people who do live there to take responsibility for getting on with their own lives, while he gets on with his. I think it's something the show has introduced as an 'easy' way of contriving an atmosphere of emotion and heightened tension, but it always feels false and, frankly, rude, placing all this blame in completely the wrong place, for no other reason than it will generate a bit of cheap drama.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Llywela

[Hecate7]

If by Time Lady you mean Romana, that really wasn't how her relationship with the Doctor worked. There was no existential angst, no emotional shut-down, no 'we're long lived and everyone else dies' woe, none of it. They travelled around the universe having fun together, and helped a lot of people along the way. The Doctor taught Romana to loosen up and be more flexible, as she was very by-the-book in her first incarnation, while she had a lot more up-to-date skills and book-learning than him - they were a good team, and being exceptionally long-lived wasn't an issue at all. Why would it be? They were both Time Lords; to them, their life span was as normal as ours is to us. That long life span isn't so normal for a human, but the Doctor's excuse for why he couldn't take Ashildr with him on his travels was very contrived. 

 

 

Yes, it would have been better for once if SHE had turned HIM down. Then they could still have the option later, after GOT is over.

[Llywela]

Yes, it would have been better for once if SHE had turned HIM down. Then they could still have the option later, after GOT is over.

I like that idea.

 

I think the biggest problem I have with this two-parter is the idea that the Doctor would have deliberately bestowed immortality on this very young girl in the first place. It seems so out of character, and out of place. It would ring truer to me if he'd used the chip from the medkit without knowing how it would interact with human DNA, just taking a chance on it working, gambling on being able to turn back death just this one time. Then when Ashildr seemed to revive, he'd leave thinking everything was okay...and then he'd be really, really surprised to encounter her again 800 years later, unchanged, and would have to figure out how it happened, realising that the chip wasn't meant for human DNA and is behaving oddly as a result (meaning we wouldn't be twisting our brains trying to figure out why those aliens were so rubbish if they had immortality chips), only then realising that she is now functionally immortal.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Llywela

[Bruinsfan]

Yeah, considering Ten used immortality as a horrible punishment for the Family of Blood you'd think this version might be reluctant to inflict it on people he's taken a liking to.

 

I know. It's like getting mad at the fireman who saves you from a house fire for not staying to rebuild your house for you afterward. That's not his job, it's something you, the homeowner, need to arrange for yourself. The fireman has done his bit, now it's over to you. Alien invasions are neither the Doctor's fault nor his responsibility. He chooses to help out because he's a good person. He is under no obligation to remain on-hand afterward. People need to take responsibility for themselves. This is something that's come up a lot over the years in New Who, and it always annoys me - this air of entitlement and resentment toward the Doctor. If something goes wrong and he doesn't happen to be around to help out (since, you know, he is neither omnipotent nor omnipresent), people get pissed at him about it, like he owes it to them to always be there to save them if they need it, and then when he does come and save them from whatever happens to be menacing them now, they get pissed at him again as if they think his being there to help means he brought it all on them somehow. And then they act like his leaving again after he's helped is somehow a worse trauma than whatever it was he saved them from. It isn't. He doesn't live in those times and places. He doesn't belong there. He's just visiting. He helps out when he's there, and then he leaves, trusting the people who do live there to take responsibility for getting on with their own lives, while he gets on with his. I think it's something the show has introduced as an 'easy' way of contriving an atmosphere of emotion and heightened tension, but it always feels false and, frankly, rude, placing all this blame in completely the wrong place, for no other reason than it will generate a bit of cheap drama.

This. Ashildr has a legitimate beef against him regarding her immortality, and God knows Ursula Blake has plenty to complain about, but most of the people he saves should be grateful for his brief intrusions into their lives.

[alias1]

I think the biggest problem I have with this two-parter is the idea that the Doctor would have deliberately bestowed immortality on this very young girl in the first place. It seems so out of character, and out of place. It would ring truer to me if he'd used the chip from the medkit without knowing how it would interact with human DNA, just taking a chance on it working, gambling on being able to turn back death just this one time. Then when Ashildr seemed to revive, he'd leave thinking everything was okay...and then he'd be really, really surprised to encounter her again 800 years later, unchanged, and would have to figure out how it happened, realising that the chip wasn't meant for human DNA and is behaving oddly as a result (meaning we wouldn't be twisting our brains trying to figure out why those aliens were so rubbish if they had immortality chips), only then realising that she is now functionally immortal.

I also thought it was out of character for the doctor to make someone knowingly immortal, given the problem he had with Jack.   This would have made a much better story.  And he could have left the 2nd dose for her, as Clara thought, not realizing that she wouldn't need it.

[debi49]

I can't imagine anything worse than living a day to day to day to day existence for 800+ years. It was Ashildr's time to die, but the Doctor wouldn't let her. He did the same thing with River. Did not allow her her natural death, and then abandoned her.

 

I doubt Maisie would want to go from one big genre show to another. My guess is, once she is done with Arya, she will want to see what else acting can offer her.

 

She is 18 so won't get any taller, so I wonder if she will have trouble getting adult roles, she is so petite.

[tankgirl73]

As for why Doctor Four and Romana didn't have the same angst from long life that's being discussed here... well, he (and I presume she) was a lot younger then. A mere child of just a few hundred years. This current doctor is OVER 2000 years old now. And Ashildr/Me is about 800 years old, but since she's a human and not a Time Lord, she's less equipped to deal with long life, so it's more or less equivalent to the Doctor's 2000 and it's STILL older than Doctor Four was in the time of Romana.

It would ring truer to me if he'd used the chip from the medkit without knowing how it would interact with human DNA, just taking a chance on it working, gambling on being able to turn back death just this one time. Then when Ashildr seemed to revive, he'd leave thinking everything was okay...and then he'd be really, really surprised to encounter her again 800 years later

Hm. After he gave her the chip, he was uncertain. He said he wasn't sure, but it might make her immortal. So it is like he took a chance on it working -- he was taking a chance on it not making her immortal. He knew about the possibility but it's not like he deliberately and absolutely knew he was choosing to make her immortal, guaranteed. And he seemed to regret it almost right away.

That being said, your version would have worked really well, too.

[paramitch]

I enjoyed this, and thought Maisie Williams was pretty terrific -- her character's situation and age offered a lot of challenges, and I thought she handled them very well. And despite her baby face, I did think she was borderline believable as a young woman of means, especially in the later scenes, and as her age in those days would of course have meant she could very well have a family of her own even without her having to play older at all. But her bearing in the scenes when she gradually became both more sympathetic to the Doctor and more antagonistic were wonderfully done. She held her own with Capaldi beautifully.

 

However, I also agree with the suggestions that this could have gone a different way and been more effective:

 

Yes, it would have been better for once if SHE had turned HIM down. Then they could still have the option later, after GOT is over.

 

See, this is really interesting. Because I could buy Twelve turning her down, sort of, yet at the same time, I was bothered because I knew absolutely that both Ten and probably Eleven would have invited Ashildr along in a heartbeat. (Not so sure about Nine. He might have been a bit iffier about it, like Twelve...)

She wants to see the Universe. She spent eight centuries mired in human death and human loss. He should have shown her SOMETHING to give her hope. Or at least had the possibility of it.

 

I think the biggest problem I have with this two-parter is the idea that the Doctor would have deliberately bestowed immortality on this very young girl in the first place. It seems so out of character, and out of place. It would ring truer to me if he'd used the chip from the medkit without knowing how it would interact with human DNA, just taking a chance on it working, gambling on being able to turn back death just this one time. Then when Ashildr seemed to revive, he'd leave thinking everything was okay...and then he'd be really, really surprised to encounter her again 800 years later, unchanged, and would have to figure out how it happened, realising that the chip wasn't meant for human DNA and is behaving oddly as a result (meaning we wouldn't be twisting our brains trying to figure out why those aliens were so rubbish if they had immortality chips), only then realising that she is now functionally immortal.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I think your scenario would have been far more believable and would have offered better writing, and drama that felt more earned. If he had thought he'd healed her, only to make her inadvertently immortal, it's a sign that the Doctor may have left more mayhem in his wake than he was aware of, emphasizing also that he's not always all-knowing or all-seeing. It would have also felt more believable for the man who could barely stand to look at Captain Jack after Rose changed him.

 

This would have also better spoken to the Doctor's inadvertent side effects. Not so much that "he runs away from [the effects of] what he does," but logistically, that he simply does not always seem to be aware of the effects of what he does at all. Tidal waves versus ripples.

 

Still, I liked it and the possibilities it offers, and I did find that last shot of Ashildr watching Clara to be rather chilling.

Edited October 30, 2015 by paramitch

[tv-talk]

I thought this 2 parter was easily best of Capaldi's run so far. He's finally getting to ACT and make the role his. It's not coincidence this is happening when there's less Clara and more Doctor. Definitely have high hopes for show once Clara is finally jettisoned, so that's nice as I had my doubts previously.

 

That said there were obvious problems with this one. I like Llewyla's idea of the Doctor not knowing she'd be immortal, that would make sense. Or if he did know, that he'd have come back regularly over the 800yrs to see her. Him just disappearing for 800yrs is out of character. What I really didnt like, aside from the absurd Cat King, was how the Doctor wouldnt consider taking her. In fact she'd have been a perfect Companion and previous Doctors would have been keen to at least have a few adventures with her. 

 

In the Ribos Operation, Romana said Doctor was 759! She was only 140. 

[John Potts]

tv talk In fact she'd have been a perfect Companion and previous Doctors would have been keen to at least have a few adventures with her.

 

 

Not to mention all the times he's offered to travel with The Master to "Keep an eye on him" (and provide Slashficcers with more fuel!)

[benteen]

Something tells me that it would be more difficult for Ashildr to hide what she is in the last 50 years than it had been for the previous 1200 years.  It was easy to assume a new identity centuries, even decades ago.  Now though, with increased government regulation, paper work, anti-fraud technology, social media...it would be REALLY tough to remain undetected for any great length of time.

 

 

She wants to see the Universe. She spent eight centuries mired in human death and human loss. He should have shown her SOMETHING to give her hope. Or at least had the possibility of it.

 

I kept wondering if she'd asked him to just leave her somewhere, either in the future of Earth or some other planet.

[KirkB]

The Doctor sticking the chip in her to make sure she revives and then running off once she came back would be perfectly in character. He does that kind of thing all the time. Wandering back a few centuries later (from her perspective) and realizing she'd become immortal and resented him because of it would be the sort of story I expected them to tell. Instead, him doing it knowing she might be immortal and then running off without helping or preparing her in any way, while sadly also in character for him, makes him come off looking worse. Or better yet, if they wanted to really add some angst, have the Doctor mention the chips could heal but he won't do it and refuses to explain why, so Clara takes it upon herself to try and save her. Then when the Doctor meets her 800 or so years later he would be really surprised and maybe a bit pissed.

Edited October 30, 2015 by KirkB

[foreverevolving]

I think I really loved this episode!

Funny enough it took me reading this thread to realize why: No Clara.. So I guess as a viewer I am finally ready for Clara to move on.

Maisie and Capaldi were incredible together!! they just worked off one another so seamlessly. 

 

I was absolutely fine with how Me tore down into the doctor.. like someone said, as a Time Lord he has more equipped to deal with living a long life, she's a human, it's different. she's in the same situation (a similar one) to Jack's.

Speaking of Jack.. I loved the Jack name drop. I wouldn't mind a post credits scene of Me and Jack somewhere in the 26th century sitting at a bar grumbling about the Doctor.. it's way past time to allow Barrowman to return as Jack, if only for an episode. they can set in far into the future! - which will accommodate JB real life aging. And I do hope Me will get to travel the universe.

BTW according to IMDB, MW will be returning for episode 10, so it be interesting to see how that will go.

 

I think we can assume she never approached Jack prior to at least 2011 since he never mentioned her (and yes I know she was just thought of for this season but you know).

 

BTW someone talked about advancement in technology and how could she keep hidden.. well the same way Jack does: in plain sight.

Regarding her condition and why the doctor didn't return for 800 years.. one does have to wonder if this is the same feeling with Jack- being "wrong".. but than didn't Tardis herself tried to stay as far away from Jack as possible? (hence why she went to the end of the universe? to try and shake him off).. so does the Tardis feels what the doctor feels and thus avoid(ed) Jack, or is it the other way around? at the same time there is a difference, Jack was brought back to life via the power of the Time Vortex While Ashildr was brought back via alien technology and it doesn't seem as if the Tardis has anything against her immortal existence.

So yea.. did the Tardis and thus the doctor stayed away from Jack and Ashildr because the Tardis sensed that they are wrong and wanted to protect the doctor (timey wimey and all those ripple affects that can not be changed cause Jack and Ashildr are immortals and whatever they do is a fixed thing) or did the doctor sensed it and as it happened with Jack did the same with Ashildr?

People we have an egg or chicken question!! Oh my Pluto what have I done.. Now I won't stop pondering this.

[elle]

Because it wouldn't be good?  That's the Doctor's reason for not taking Ashildr with him?  Wow.

 

okay fine...

 

But by the end, seeing her at least "care" again, what was his reason now for at least not taking her, as was suggested, in the future or another galaxy. (whatever his last speech to her)

 

I am surprised that the townspeople did not turn on her and her sidekick for all that sfx work.  After all, she was drowned for saving a town from small pox.

[benteen]

Let's face facts...the Doctor is an asshole when it comes to immortals like Jack and Ashildr.

[elle]

I can't imagine anything worse than living a day to day to day to day existence for 800+ years. It was Ashildr's time to die, but the Doctor wouldn't let her. He did the same thing with River. Did not allow her her natural death, and then abandoned her.

Just finished watching Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead.  I disagree with you on what happened to River being the same as what happened to Ashildr.

 

River made the choice to die, not a natural death but one that would save everyone especially the Doctor, although I never did understand how plugging herself into the system was going to help, but "hand-wave".  She made the Doctor watch by hand cuffing him to some piece of equipment so he could not interfere.  What he did accomplish was to "save" her life print and upload that to the computer.  He knew that at least she would be "alive" in this cyber reality and not alone, what with CAL and Dr. Moon being there.

 

However, what was done by Lux's grandfather for his youngest daughter Charlotte Abigail is more questionable.  As the character Lux admits it is a "half-life but it is forever".  Stuck forever as a child, even with all the books of the world to access, sounds, well, more self serving for the grandfather than his child.

 

A slightly different example of the Doctor's abandoning someone would be what he did to his own self.  He just left himself, a Time Lord stuck as a human, in a parallel dimension with a "keeper".  Now, I don't understand all the why nots for not visiting other dimensions, but it seems he would have a vested interest in what happened to himself. (yes, I am ignoring the whole other issue)

Edited November 12, 2015 by elle